I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on 'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent & decent.
Having thought about it some more, I realise most of my PC dates from 2016 so regardless of Microsoft's messing around, it is time for a refresh.
I'm happy with the peripherals I have, so it's just the Motherboard/CPU/RAM/CPU Cooler that I want to replace. To make life easier, I want to buy a ready built & tested bundle.
Last time around,I bought such a bundle from Novatech, and I was very happy with the result. I might still buy from them, but their bundles get very expensive very quickly (e.g. a modest bundle is ~£300, the next is £740 and sharply up from there).
Question: Can anyone recommend other firms which offer such (built & tested) bundles, and are they good if/when things need attention?
(I can recommend Novatech since they replaced my first bundle without a quibble when it suddenly died after a year of use.)
Question 2: My current system is Intel-based. Is there any advantage to going for a Ryzen-based system at the moment?
I am not into the latest & greatest in gaming, so I have no interest in overclocking the thing into meltdown.
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on
'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent & decent.
Having thought about it some more, I realise most of my PC dates from
2016 so regardless of Microsoft's messing around, it is time for a refresh.
I'm happy with the peripherals I have, so it's just the Motherboard/CPU/RAM/CPU Cooler that I want to replace. To make life
easier, I want to buy a ready built & tested bundle.
Last time around,I bought such a bundle from Novatech, and I was very
happy with the result. I might still buy from them, but their bundles
get very expensive very quickly (e.g. a modest bundle is ~£300, the next
is £740 and sharply up from there).
Question: Can anyone recommend other firms which offer such (built &
tested) bundles, and are they good if/when things need attention?
(I can recommend Novatech since they replaced my first bundle without a quibble when it suddenly died after a year of use.)
Question 2: My current system is Intel-based. Is there any advantage
to going for a Ryzen-based system at the moment?
I am not into the latest & greatest in gaming, so I have no interest in overclocking the thing into meltdown.
Just over 10 years ago I bought a "Clearance" laptop from Novatech. At the time, their machines were rebadged Clevo laptops. The laptop I bought was half the price it would have been new about 12 - 18 months previously, and was very highly specced. Itworked faultlessly for over 8 years until the HDD started playing up (I've since replaced it with an SSD after getting a new laptop, and it now works ok. However, it /is/ an old machine, so things like electrolytic capacitors might be getting a little
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on
'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent & decent.
Having thought about it some more, I realise most of my PC dates from
2016 so regardless of Microsoft's messing around, it is time for a refresh.
I'm happy with the peripherals I have, so it's just the Motherboard/CPU/ RAM/CPU Cooler that I want to replace. To make life easier, I want to
buy a ready built & tested bundle.
Question: Can anyone recommend other firms which offer such (built & tested) bundles, and are they good if/when things need attention?
(I can recommend Novatech since they replaced my first bundle without a quibble when it suddenly died after a year of use.)
Question 2: My current system is Intel-based. Is there any advantage
to going for a Ryzen-based system at the moment?
I am not into the latest & greatest in gaming, so I have no interest in overclocking the thing into meltdown.
I've had two motherboard failures here, and the root cause wasnot caps.
On Mon, 4/14/2025 3:30 AM, Jeff Layman wrote:worked faultlessly for over 8 years until the HDD started playing up (I've since replaced it with an SSD after getting a new laptop, and it now works ok. However, it /is/ an old machine, so things like electrolytic capacitors might be getting a little
Just over 10 years ago I bought a "Clearance" laptop from Novatech. At the time, their machines were rebadged Clevo laptops. The laptop I bought was half the price it would have been new about 12 - 18 months previously, and was very highly specced. It
Capacitors aren't that fragile.
You have to antagonize them.
I've had two motherboard failures here, and the root cause was *not* caps.
It was different during the capacitor plague. It was so bad then, a capacitor could fail in two years, while cold, and not under bias. The pH of the liquid inside was such, it just ate through the casing. I bought an Antec power supply,
it sat on the shelf for two years (as a "spare"), and when I went to use it, it was behaving in an unstable manner. When I opened it for a look, the four +5V output caps were leaking and brown fluid was coming out the top on the vent lines (the metal is thinnest there).
Today, a design can use Polymer caps (no fluid) or electrolytics.
The electrolytic in my electric lawn mower, is 33 years old. It has
not exploded, the can is intact, it's really quite amazing, in terms
of service life. I got to check it, when I changed out the brushes.
On Mon, 4/14/2025 3:30 AM, Jeff Layman wrote:worked faultlessly for over 8 years until the HDD started playing up (I've since replaced it with an SSD after getting a new laptop, and it now works ok. However, it /is/ an old machine, so things like electrolytic capacitors might be getting a little
Just over 10 years ago I bought a "Clearance" laptop from Novatech. At the time, their machines were rebadged Clevo laptops. The laptop I bought was half the price it would have been new about 12 - 18 months previously, and was very highly specced. It
Capacitors aren't that fragile.
You have to antagonize them.
I've had two motherboard failures here, and the root cause was *not* caps.
It was different during the capacitor plague.
The electrolytic in my electric lawn mower, is 33 years old. It has
not exploded, the can is intact, it's really quite amazing, in terms
of service life. I got to check it, when I changed out the brushes.
Clevo is an ODM, so just about everyone rebadges their stuff.
They expect it to be rebadged. The Eurocom store near me,
uses a lot of Clevo, and they put the Eurocom sticker on it.
Clevo doesn't build battleships like it used to, the machines
are losing weight, and whatever tactical advantage they had,
is disappearing. You could have a laptop for example, with
four SSDs in it. They don't do them exactly like that any more.
The machines are toned down a bit. Can Clevo survive by making
laptops that way ? I can't see this ending well. We want four
SSDs, two MXM modules, and two wall adapters for power, like
all good battleships. No one can steal your laptop, because
it's too heavy. And some of those machines could cost 7000.
To give you some idea how over the top they were. part of the
price might be Quadro graphics (for CAD work).
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on
'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent &
decent.
Having thought about it some more, I realise most of my PC dates from
2016 so regardless of Microsoft's messing around, it is time for a
refresh.
I'm happy with the peripherals I have, so it's just the Motherboard/CPU/RAM/CPU Cooler that I want to replace. To make life
easier, I want to buy a ready built & tested bundle.
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on
'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent & decent.
Paul wrote:
I've had two motherboard failures here, and the root cause wasnot caps.
The only motherboard I've had (still have) that failed due to caps was
the infamous Abit BP6
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on
'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent & decent.
Snip <
On 14/04/2025 00:41, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on 'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent & decent.
Having thought about it some more, I realise most of my PC dates from
2016 so regardless of Microsoft's messing around, it is time for a refresh.
I have had this conversation with quite a few customers recently, and
have had to point out that yup it is a right pain that MS are forcing
you to ditch a perfectly serviceable machine, but many of them are 10+
years old, and they might actually be pleasantly surprised how much of
an improvement in performance the new one will bring along with lower
running costs.
I'm happy with the peripherals I have, so it's just the Motherboard/CPU/ RAM/CPU Cooler that I want to replace. To make life easier, I want to
buy a ready built & tested bundle.
OOI what peripherals are you referring to?
You could just pick a motherboard that meets your needs, and then look
at the makers hardware compatibility lists. Then just pick a RAM/CPU combination from the list, and you know that it is a tested combination
that will work.
On 14/04/2025 00:41, Sam Plusnet wrote:bare metal" hypervisor that introduces very little overhead). So you would use Win 10 only for the purposes of access so the Win 11 virtual machine.
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on 'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent & decent.
There are a couple of ways round the hardware requirements for Win 11... Not necessarily things I would recommend for all users, but for home user prepared to take the less common path, might be worth considering.
One example would be to run win 11 as a guest OS in a VM. Many of the hypervisors can emulate a TPM even if the host of the hypervisor does not have one. (if you currently have Win 10 pro, then Hyper-V is included and can be enabled. That is a type 1 "
Once you go down this road, you might find you can pick up a whole mini PC for £200-300 which is the price of a mobo/CPU/RAM combo. Even less if you're prepared to consider a used ex-office mini PC.
John Rumm <[email protected]> wrote:
On 14/04/2025 00:41, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run onI have had this conversation with quite a few customers recently, and
'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent & decent. >>>
Having thought about it some more, I realise most of my PC dates from
2016 so regardless of Microsoft's messing around, it is time for a refresh. >>
have had to point out that yup it is a right pain that MS are forcing
you to ditch a perfectly serviceable machine, but many of them are 10+
years old, and they might actually be pleasantly surprised how much of
an improvement in performance the new one will bring along with lower
running costs.
I'm happy with the peripherals I have, so it's just the Motherboard/CPU/ >>> RAM/CPU Cooler that I want to replace. To make life easier, I want to
buy a ready built & tested bundle.
OOI what peripherals are you referring to?
You could just pick a motherboard that meets your needs, and then look
at the makers hardware compatibility lists. Then just pick a RAM/CPU
combination from the list, and you know that it is a tested combination
that will work.
It's also worth considering whether a change of form factor would make
sense. eg now that primary storage is mostly M.2 NVMe SSDs rather than spinning hard drives, you only need find space for a half credit card sized PCB rather than an almost-VHS sized lump. If you don't need to house a
lump, you can make the case much smaller.
Also, laptop-class CPUs are often 'good enough' nowadays, and they use less power and so need less cooling, which means you can get away with a tiny heatsink and fan rather than a heatsink the size of a mug. That also allows the case to be smaller. Because they're lower power and the graphics may be good enough to not need a discrete GPU, you don't need a giant PSU you can run the whole system from a power brick. etc etc
Once you go down this road, you might find you can pick up a whole mini PC for £200-300 which is the price of a mobo/CPU/RAM combo. Even less if you're prepared to consider a used ex-office mini PC.
On 14 Apr 2025 at 11:48:09 BST, Theo wrote:
Going the other way price-wise, I've just bought a new Mac Mini - astonishing bit of kit for the size and price (£600, although quite easy to get discounts).
Going the other way price-wise, I've just bought a new Mac Mini - astonishing bit of kit for the size and price (£600, although quite easy to get discounts).
Once you go down this road, you might find you can pick up a whole mini PC for £200-300 which is the price of a mobo/CPU/RAM combo. Even less if you're prepared to consider a used ex-office mini PC.
RJH <[email protected]> wrote:
Going the other way price-wise, I've just bought a new Mac Mini - astonishing
bit of kit for the size and price (£600, although quite easy to get
discounts).
Given the way MS have been abusing their customers, foisting things on them they don't want (forced-upgrades, removing features from W11 over W10, telemetry, adverts, AI, Recall, 'forgetting' that you disabled those things every time it updates, etc), that's not a bad option if you can stomach switching to a different platform. If the base 16GB RAM / 256GB storage isn't enough and you don't want to pay the Apple tax, there are now third party storage upgrades.
Or switch to Linux, where there's no arbitrary CPU age cutoff.
Theo
On 4/14/25 12:12, RJH wrote:
On 14 Apr 2025 at 11:48:09 BST, Theo wrote:
Secondhand Mac Mini M1 going for about £300. I would buy one if I
Going the other way price-wise, I've just bought a new Mac Mini -
astonishing
bit of kit for the size and price (£600, although quite easy to get
discounts).
thought I could get Linux to run on it.
This kind of thread confuses me because I don't know what people want.
Almost all modern PCs are fast enough for general use.
The new Beelink N100/N150 W11 is cheap and fast enough for general use.
An Orange Pi 5 is about the same speed, faster than my 10 year old Windows/Intel PC, which was still fast enough.
The only reason I can see for building a PC would be if you have a
specific use in mind, in which case it would be good to say up front,
because it would affect the build requirements.
Theo <[email protected]> wrote:
Once you go down this road, you might find you can pick up a whole mini PC for £200-300 which is the price of a mobo/CPU/RAM combo. Even less if you're prepared to consider a used ex-office mini PC.
Yes, that's what I use as my 'desktop' machine now. I have a Fujitsu
Esprimo Q957 bought refurbished from eBay for £142. I don't think
it's quite up to Windows 11 but I'm sure similar later models will be.
On 14/04/2025 12:23, Theo wrote:
RJH <[email protected]> wrote:
Going the other way price-wise, I've just bought a new Mac Mini -
astonishing bit of kit for the size and price (£600, although
quite easy to get discounts).
Given the way MS have been abusing their customers, foisting things
on them they don't want (forced-upgrades, removing features from
W11 over W10, telemetry, adverts, AI, Recall, 'forgetting' that you disabled those things every time it updates, etc), that's not a bad
option if you can stomach switching to a different platform. If
the base 16GB RAM / 256GB storage isn't enough and you don't want
to pay the Apple tax, there are now third party storage upgrades.
Or switch to Linux, where there's no arbitrary CPU age cutoff.Absolutely. 16GB ram 256GB storage is under £300 for quality refurbs ...running win11 or Linux ...And with 16GB RAM you can run Virtualbox
for those must have windows programs..
Does anybody actually *want* win 11?
Office has been rented for some time, something that MS always wanted
to do with all its software, so I suppose it's only a matter of time
before Windows goes subscription-only, and they don't have to keep
pretending to develop it. Newer and better applications will always
happen, but in general the OS doesn't need 'a complete rewrite' (not
that it really happens) every few years.
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on
'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent & decent.
Having thought about it some more, I realise most of my PC dates from
2016 so regardless of Microsoft's messing around, it is time for a refresh.
I'm happy with the peripherals I have, so it's just the Motherboard/CPU/RAM/CPU Cooler that I want to replace. To make life
easier, I want to buy a ready built & tested bundle.
Last time around,I bought such a bundle from Novatech, and I was very
happy with the result. I might still buy from them, but their bundles
get very expensive very quickly (e.g. a modest bundle is ~£300, the next
is £740 and sharply up from there).
Question: Can anyone recommend other firms which offer such (built & tested) bundles, and are they good if/when things need attention?
(I can recommend Novatech since they replaced my first bundle without a quibble when it suddenly died after a year of use.)
Question 2: My current system is Intel-based. Is there any advantage
to going for a Ryzen-based system at the moment?
I am not into the latest & greatest in gaming, so I have no interest in overclocking the thing into meltdown.
Consider whether you *need* a desktop machine. A re-furb laptop (from
the likes of Tier1) will come with an in-built UPS ...
On Sun, 4/13/2025 7:41 PM, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on 'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent & decent.
Having thought about it some more, I realise most of my PC dates from 2016 so regardless of Microsoft's messing around, it is time for a refresh.
I'm happy with the peripherals I have, so it's just the Motherboard/CPU/RAM/CPU Cooler that I want to replace. To make life easier, I want to buy a ready built & tested bundle.
Last time around,I bought such a bundle from Novatech, and I was very happy with the result. I might still buy from them, but their bundles get very expensive very quickly (e.g. a modest bundle is ~£300, the next is £740 and sharply up from there).
Question: Can anyone recommend other firms which offer such (built & tested) bundles, and are they good if/when things need attention?
(I can recommend Novatech since they replaced my first bundle without a quibble when it suddenly died after a year of use.)
Question 2: My current system is Intel-based. Is there any advantage to going for a Ryzen-based system at the moment?
I am not into the latest & greatest in gaming, so I have no interest in overclocking the thing into meltdown.
To give the folks a flavour of what you've got currently, give us a dump on your hardware.
We can use this information, to give you a comparable system closer to what you've
got, without going overboard on the shiny aspect.
Chris Green <[email protected]> wrote:
Theo <[email protected]> wrote:
Yes, that's what I use as my 'desktop' machine now. I have a Fujitsu
Once you go down this road, you might find you can pick up a whole mini PC >>> for £200-300 which is the price of a mobo/CPU/RAM combo. Even less if
you're prepared to consider a used ex-office mini PC.
Esprimo Q957 bought refurbished from eBay for £142. I don't think
it's quite up to Windows 11 but I'm sure similar later models will be.
Yes, look for machines that have at least an 8th gen Intel or a Ryzen 3000.
If you're running Linux or Win10 (or prepared to run Win 11 unsupported), there are some very good deals on the 7th gen/2000 series machines which officially won't run Win 11 - they start at about £50 including RAM and SSD on ebay.
John Rumm <[email protected]> wrote:
On 14/04/2025 00:41, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run onI have had this conversation with quite a few customers recently, and
'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent & decent. >>>
Having thought about it some more, I realise most of my PC dates from
2016 so regardless of Microsoft's messing around, it is time for a refresh. >>
have had to point out that yup it is a right pain that MS are forcing
you to ditch a perfectly serviceable machine, but many of them are 10+
years old, and they might actually be pleasantly surprised how much of
an improvement in performance the new one will bring along with lower
running costs.
I'm happy with the peripherals I have, so it's just the Motherboard/CPU/ >>> RAM/CPU Cooler that I want to replace. To make life easier, I want to
buy a ready built & tested bundle.
OOI what peripherals are you referring to?
You could just pick a motherboard that meets your needs, and then look
at the makers hardware compatibility lists. Then just pick a RAM/CPU
combination from the list, and you know that it is a tested combination
that will work.
It's also worth considering whether a change of form factor would make
sense. eg now that primary storage is mostly M.2 NVMe SSDs rather than spinning hard drives, you only need find space for a half credit card sized PCB rather than an almost-VHS sized lump. If you don't need to house a
lump, you can make the case much smaller.
Also, laptop-class CPUs are often 'good enough' nowadays, and they use less power and so need less cooling, which means you can get away with a tiny heatsink and fan rather than a heatsink the size of a mug. That also allows the case to be smaller. Because they're lower power and the graphics may be good enough to not need a discrete GPU, you don't need a giant PSU you can run the whole system from a power brick. etc etc
Once you go down this road, you might find you can pick up a whole mini PC for £200-300 which is the price of a mobo/CPU/RAM combo. Even less if you're prepared to consider a used ex-office mini PC.
On Mon, 14 Apr 2025 00:41:06 +0100, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on
'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent &
decent.
Having thought about it some more, I realise most of my PC dates from
2016 so regardless of Microsoft's messing around, it is time for a
refresh.
I'm happy with the peripherals I have, so it's just the
Motherboard/CPU/RAM/CPU Cooler that I want to replace. To make life
easier, I want to buy a ready built & tested bundle.
I am in the same situation, and in fact one of the three machines I have
to upgrade has just died (CPU or motherboard) anyway.
I will avoid the obligatory 'install Linux <pick distro of the moment> comment; that was useless for me as all three systems must run Windows for good technical reasons.
I chose my own bundle using pangoly.com, which shows you options and
(mostly) checks compatibility. Take a look.
Using a different utility I already had loaded:
Intel Core i7-6700K
GIGABYTE Z170XP-SLI-CF
16 GB RAM (2 off Kingston KHX2666C15D4/8G) @1333 MHz
GPU NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 6GB
I have a mixture of drives. An M.2 SSD, a SATA SSD, and a few HDDs in
this machine, which will mostly go into the new setup.
Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run onConsider whether you *need* a desktop machine. A re-furb laptop (from
'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent &
decent.
Having thought about it some more, I realise most of my PC dates from
2016 so regardless of Microsoft's messing around, it is time for a
refresh.
I'm happy with the peripherals I have, so it's just the Motherboard/
CPU/RAM/CPU Cooler that I want to replace. To make life easier, I
want to buy a ready built & tested bundle.
Last time around,I bought such a bundle from Novatech, and I was very
happy with the result. I might still buy from them, but their bundles
get very expensive very quickly (e.g. a modest bundle is ~£300, the
next is £740 and sharply up from there).
Question: Can anyone recommend other firms which offer such (built &
tested) bundles, and are they good if/when things need attention?
(I can recommend Novatech since they replaced my first bundle without
a quibble when it suddenly died after a year of use.)
Question 2: My current system is Intel-based. Is there any advantage
to going for a Ryzen-based system at the moment?
I am not into the latest & greatest in gaming, so I have no interest
in overclocking the thing into meltdown.
the likes of Tier1) will come with an in-built UPS ...
On 14/04/2025 00:41, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run onNot strictly true.
'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent &
decent.
Snip <
I'm triple booting windows 8.1/10/11 on ancient hardware.
On 14/04/2025 10:59, wasbit wrote:
On 14/04/2025 00:41, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run onNot strictly true.
'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent &
decent.
Snip <
I'm triple booting windows 8.1/10/11 on ancient hardware.
If you install Win11 via one of the published work-arounds, will you
still get OS updates in future?
On Mon, 14 Apr 2025 14:10:16 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]d> wrote:
On 14/04/2025 12:23, Theo wrote:
RJH <[email protected]> wrote:Absolutely. 16GB ram 256GB storage is under £300 for quality refurbs
Going the other way price-wise, I've just bought a new Mac Mini -
astonishing bit of kit for the size and price (£600, although
quite easy to get discounts).
Given the way MS have been abusing their customers, foisting things
on them they don't want (forced-upgrades, removing features from
W11 over W10, telemetry, adverts, AI, Recall, 'forgetting' that you
disabled those things every time it updates, etc), that's not a bad
option if you can stomach switching to a different platform. If
the base 16GB RAM / 256GB storage isn't enough and you don't want
to pay the Apple tax, there are now third party storage upgrades.
Or switch to Linux, where there's no arbitrary CPU age cutoff.
...running win11 or Linux ...And with 16GB RAM you can run Virtualbox
for those must have windows programs..
Does anybody actually *want* win 11?
I don't think anyone in business wanted anything after Win7, or maybe
even XP. But just as most sharks have to keep swimming to breathe, MS
has to keep pulling rabbits, or turkeys, out of the hat to stay in
business.
Office has been rented for some time, something that MS always wanted
to do with all its software, so I suppose it's only a matter of time
before Windows goes subscription-only, and they don't have to keep
pretending to develop it. Newer and better applications will always
happen, but in general the OS doesn't need 'a complete rewrite' (not
that it really happens) every few years.
Much of the change in Linux is due to having to keep up with hardware
changes that new versions of Windows require the manufacturers to keep making.
I still have a 32-bit netbook running the latest version of
Debian, but that will be the last version with 386 code.
On 14/04/2025 17:38, No mail wrote:
Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run onConsider whether you *need* a desktop machine. A re-furb laptop (from
'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent &
decent.
Having thought about it some more, I realise most of my PC dates from
2016 so regardless of Microsoft's messing around, it is time for a
refresh.
I'm happy with the peripherals I have, so it's just the Motherboard/
CPU/RAM/CPU Cooler that I want to replace. To make life easier, I
want to buy a ready built & tested bundle.
Last time around,I bought such a bundle from Novatech, and I was very
happy with the result. I might still buy from them, but their
bundles get very expensive very quickly (e.g. a modest bundle is
~£300, the next is £740 and sharply up from there).
Question: Can anyone recommend other firms which offer such (built &
tested) bundles, and are they good if/when things need attention?
(I can recommend Novatech since they replaced my first bundle without
a quibble when it suddenly died after a year of use.)
Question 2: My current system is Intel-based. Is there any
advantage to going for a Ryzen-based system at the moment?
I am not into the latest & greatest in gaming, so I have no interest
in overclocking the thing into meltdown.
the likes of Tier1) will come with an in-built UPS ...
I have a laptop (2 actually)[1], but I can never get used to the tiny
screen, lousy keyboard and... that touchpad experience - ugh!
Yes, I could use an external keyboard and mouse - and maybe plug in an external monitor, but that takes me back to a desktop machine.
[1] I generally buy refurbished Thinkpads.
On 14/04/2025 17:38, No mail wrote:
Consider whether you *need* a desktop machine. A re-furb laptop (from
the likes of Tier1) will come with an in-built UPS ...
The OP asked about a new mb for his desktop, but you can buy a quite
capable N100 machine for £100, or so. That will run browsers, email,
etc, which probably covers 90% of users.
On 14/04/2025 15:45, Theo wrote:
Chris Green <[email protected]> wrote:
Theo <[email protected]> wrote:
Yes, that's what I use as my 'desktop' machine now. I have a Fujitsu
Once you go down this road, you might find you can pick up a whole
mini PC
for £200-300 which is the price of a mobo/CPU/RAM combo. Even less if >>>> you're prepared to consider a used ex-office mini PC.
Esprimo Q957 bought refurbished from eBay for £142. I don't think
it's quite up to Windows 11 but I'm sure similar later models will be.
Yes, look for machines that have at least an 8th gen Intel or a Ryzen
3000.
If you're running Linux or Win10 (or prepared to run Win 11 unsupported),
there are some very good deals on the 7th gen/2000 series machines which
officially won't run Win 11 - they start at about £50 including RAM
and SSD
on ebay.
There are plenty of refurbished machines[1] for sale which say they come
with Win11 Pro.
I _suspect_ a fair number of those do not meet the Win11 hardware requirements - but the sellers have installed that OS via one of the work-arounds.
I wonder if those machines will be able to get later OS updates?
[1] I was looking at a range of Dell Optiflex PCs
On 14/04/2025 12:59, Pancho wrote:
On 4/14/25 12:12, RJH wrote:It will.
On 14 Apr 2025 at 11:48:09 BST, Theo wrote:Secondhand Mac Mini M1 going for about £300. I would buy one if I
Going the other way price-wise, I've just bought a new Mac Mini -
astonishing
bit of kit for the size and price (£600, although quite easy to get
discounts).
thought I could get Linux to run on it.
This kind of thread confuses me because I don't know what people want.I always used to get a PC and keep upgrading it. But it's no longer
Almost all modern PCs are fast enough for general use.
The new Beelink N100/N150 W11 is cheap and fast enough for general
use. An Orange Pi 5 is about the same speed, faster than my 10 year
old Windows/Intel PC, which was still fast enough.
The only reason I can see for building a PC would be if you have a
specific use in mind, in which case it would be good to say up front,
because it would affect the build requirements.
worth it.
The market is flooded with ex leased corporate PCs 2-5 years old that
are unbelievable value for money.
Contractually these are always bought in bulk without disks (they get
crushed for security) and are therefore equipped with new SSDS and
Windows 10/11
The only reason to build a PC today is for a special usage - usually gaming
Using a different utility I already had loaded:
Intel Core i7-6700K
GIGABYTE Z170XP-SLI-CF
16 GB RAM (2 off Kingston KHX2666C15D4/8G) @1333 MHz
GPU NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 6GB
I have a mixture of drives. An M.2 SSD, a SATA SSD, and a few HDDs in
this machine, which will mostly go into the new setup.
On 14/04/2025 17:38, No mail wrote:
Consider whether you need a desktop machine. A re-furb laptop (from the >>likes of Tier1) will come with an in-built UPS ...
The OP asked about a new mb for his desktop, but you can buy a quite
capable N100 machine for £100, or so. That will run browsers, email,
etc, which probably covers 90% of users.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006997281548.html
There are codes around to get the price down a bit.
Consider whether you need a desktop machine. A re-furb laptop (from the >>likes of Tier1) will come with an in-built UPS ...
I have a laptop (2 actually)[1], but I can never get used to the tiny
screen, lousy keyboard and... that touchpad experience - ugh!
Yes, I could use an external keyboard and mouse - and maybe plug in an >external monitor, but that takes me back to a desktop machine.
[1] I generally buy refurbished Thinkpads.
On 14/04/2025 18:26, GB wrote:
On 14/04/2025 17:38, No mail wrote:
Consider whether you *need* a desktop machine. A re-furb laptop (from
the likes of Tier1) will come with an in-built UPS ...
The OP asked about a new mb for his desktop, but you can buy a quite
capable N100 machine for £100, or so. That will run browsers, email,
etc, which probably covers 90% of users.
Them that can put up with pretty lame performance anyway! i5 / Ryzen 5
would be a better starting point for a general purpose machine. The N100 might be alright for a media (consumption) PC.
On 14/04/2025 19:45, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 14/04/2025 17:38, No mail wrote:
Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not runConsider whether you *need* a desktop machine. A re-furb laptop (from
on 'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent
& decent.
Having thought about it some more, I realise most of my PC dates
from 2016 so regardless of Microsoft's messing around, it is time
for a refresh.
I'm happy with the peripherals I have, so it's just the Motherboard/
CPU/RAM/CPU Cooler that I want to replace. To make life easier, I
want to buy a ready built & tested bundle.
Last time around,I bought such a bundle from Novatech, and I was
very happy with the result. I might still buy from them, but their
bundles get very expensive very quickly (e.g. a modest bundle is
~£300, the next is £740 and sharply up from there).
Question: Can anyone recommend other firms which offer such (built
& tested) bundles, and are they good if/when things need attention?
(I can recommend Novatech since they replaced my first bundle
without a quibble when it suddenly died after a year of use.)
Question 2: My current system is Intel-based. Is there any
advantage to going for a Ryzen-based system at the moment?
I am not into the latest & greatest in gaming, so I have no interest
in overclocking the thing into meltdown.
the likes of Tier1) will come with an in-built UPS ...
I have a laptop (2 actually)[1], but I can never get used to the tiny
screen, lousy keyboard and... that touchpad experience - ugh!
Yes, I could use an external keyboard and mouse - and maybe plug in an
external monitor, but that takes me back to a desktop machine.
It does, but you then have the option of taking it out and about on the
rare occasions that might be useful.
[1] I generally buy refurbished Thinkpads.
Probably what i will replace my ageing 3rd gen i5 laptop with. I got
caught out a while ago attempting to debug what seemed like an under performing 1 Gbps FTTC connection. While it could easily saturate its
1Gbps ethernet, what it turned out it could not do, was run any of the broadband speed test web sites at much over 300Mbps - even when PPPTPed direct into the ONT.
On 14/04/2025 00:41, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on 'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent & decent.Not strictly true.
Snip <
I'm triple booting windows 8.1/10/11 on ancient hardware.
On 14/04/2025 10:59, wasbit wrote:
On 14/04/2025 00:41, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run onNot strictly true.
'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent &
decent.
Snip <
I'm triple booting windows 8.1/10/11 on ancient hardware.
If you install Win11 via one of the published work-arounds, will you
still get OS updates in future?
snip <
I have thought about one of the many Dell Optiflex machines which seem
to dominate the second hand market, but I suspect I would end up
replacing that fairly quickly - and I do dislike all the hassle involved
in transferring my applications & data onto a new(er) setup.
On 14/04/2025 19:40, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 14/04/2025 10:59, wasbit wrote:
On 14/04/2025 00:41, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run onI'm triple booting windows 8.1/10/11 on ancient hardware.
'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent &
decent.
Snip <> Not strictly true.
If you install Win11 via one of the published work-arounds, will you
still get OS updates in future?
Who knows? It's up to the vagaries of Microsoft.
I should also say that it is installed as a technical exercise & for familiarity. There is no personal information on there.
On 14/04/2025 19:30, Sam Plusnet wrote:
snip <
I have thought about one of the many Dell Optiflex machines which seemThere are a number of free programmes that say that they can do that but
to dominate the second hand market, but I suspect I would end up
replacing that fairly quickly - and I do dislike all the hassle
involved in transferring my applications & data onto a new(er) setup.
I have never tried any of them for this purpose.
Clonezilla - http://clonezilla.org
Disk Genius Free (was Partition Guru - also Portable 32/64bit)- https:// www.diskgenius.com/download.php
Hasleo Disk Clone - https://www.easyuefi.com/disk-clone/disk-clone-
home.html
Macrium Reflect - https://www.softpedia.com/get/System/Back-Up-and- Recovery/Macrium-Reflect-Free-Edition.shtml
NB: Acronis True Image, Paragon Drive Copy need the non freeware versions.
I do dislike all the hassle involved in transferring my applications &Well put the data on a server or something - or a usb drive. Or install
data onto a new(er) setup.
On 14/04/2025 in message <vtjggl$1n0pc$[email protected]> GB wrote:
On 14/04/2025 17:38, No mail wrote:
Consider whether you need a desktop machine. A re-furb laptop (from
the likes of Tier1) will come with an in-built UPS ...
The OP asked about a new mb for his desktop, but you can buy a quite
capable N100 machine for £100, or so. That will run browsers, email,
etc, which probably covers 90% of users.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006997281548.html
There are codes around to get the price down a bit.
You almost have to buy one for that price :-)
On 14/04/2025 22:46, Sam Plusnet wrote:
an under performing 1 Gbps FTTC connection.
FTTC is not capable of more tnan around 80Mps
an under performing 1 Gbps FTTC connection.
On 15 Apr 2025 at 11:34:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher" <[email protected]d> wrote:
On 14/04/2025 22:46, Sam Plusnet wrote:
an under performing 1 Gbps FTTC connection.
FTTC is not capable of more tnan around 80Mps
Depends just where the cab is, I suppose. Here is about a quarter of a mile down the road and its copper from there. Much better than copper to the next village, however, as it used to be.
On 14/04/2025 22:46, Sam Plusnet wrote:
an under performing 1 Gbps FTTC connection.
FTTC is not capable of more tnan around 80Mps
On 4/14/25 20:30, John Rumm wrote:
On 14/04/2025 18:26, GB wrote:Where do you think this lame performance manifests itself, on a general purpose machine?
On 14/04/2025 17:38, No mail wrote:
Consider whether you *need* a desktop machine. A re-furb laptop
(from the likes of Tier1) will come with an in-built UPS ...
The OP asked about a new mb for his desktop, but you can buy a quite
capable N100 machine for £100, or so. That will run browsers, email,
etc, which probably covers 90% of users.
Them that can put up with pretty lame performance anyway! i5 / Ryzen 5
would be a better starting point for a general purpose machine. The
N100 might be alright for a media (consumption) PC.
What activities benefit from the Ryzen 5?
On 15/04/2025 11:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/04/2025 22:46, Sam Plusnet wrote:
an under performing 1 Gbps FTTC connection.
Sorry my typo - FTTP
FTTC is not capable of more tnan around 80Mps
Actually it can go to about 140 on SoGEA lines (i.e. VDSL without POTS)
The Natural Philosopher wrote:When I was the only person in the street who had FTTC, my router
FTTC is not capable of more tnan around 80Mps
Depends just where the cab is, I suppose. Here is about a quarter of a mile down the road
John Rumm wrote:My speed didn't budge when I switched to SoGEA, didn't think openreach
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
FTTC is not capable of more tnan around 80Mps
Actually it can go to about 140 on SoGEA lines (i.e. VDSL without POTS)
Are Openreach offering >80Mbps profiles?
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on
'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent & decent.
Having thought about it some more, I realise most of my PC dates from
2016 so regardless of Microsoft's messing around, it is time for a refresh.
I'm happy with the peripherals I have, so it's just the Motherboard/CPU/RAM/CPU Cooler that I want to replace. To make life
easier, I want to buy a ready built & tested bundle.
Last time around,I bought such a bundle from Novatech, and I was very
happy with the result. I might still buy from them, but their bundles
get very expensive very quickly (e.g. a modest bundle is ~£300, the next
is £740 and sharply up from there).
On 15 Apr 2025 at 10:07:48 BST, "wasbit" <[email protected]> wrote:
On 14/04/2025 19:40, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 14/04/2025 10:59, wasbit wrote:
On 14/04/2025 00:41, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on >>>>> 'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent &I'm triple booting windows 8.1/10/11 on ancient hardware.
decent.
Snip <> Not strictly true.
If you install Win11 via one of the published work-arounds, will you
still get OS updates in future?
Who knows? It's up to the vagaries of Microsoft.
I should also say that it is installed as a technical exercise & for
familiarity. There is no personal information on there.
Win-11 runs nicely in a VirtualBox VM on my Mac Mini.
It's the first Win OS that I remember, that has decent fonts instead of all the dotty ones. So it even looks nice.
Theo wrote:
John Rumm wrote:My speed didn't budge when I switched to SoGEA, didn't think openreach used profile 35b due to interference? Might be nice if the offered it after
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
FTTC is not capable of more tnan around 80Mps
Actually it can go to about 140 on SoGEA lines (i.e. VDSL without POTS)
Are Openreach offering >80Mbps profiles?
POTS finally dies in 2027?
The Nikon scan software only ever ran on windows and AppleNot necessarily
Macs <= 2008, so Linux is presumably out of the running.
On 15/04/2025 16:44, Andrew wrote:
The Nikon scan software only ever ran on windows and AppleNot necessarily
Macs <= 2008, so Linux is presumably out of the running.
Vuescan should work on all platforms. Its a free download. Try it on
windows first, if it works there it will work on Linux.
John Rumm <[email protected]> wrote:
On 15/04/2025 11:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/04/2025 22:46, Sam Plusnet wrote:
an under performing 1 Gbps FTTC connection.
Sorry my typo - FTTP
FTTC is not capable of more tnan around 80Mps
Actually it can go to about 140 on SoGEA lines (i.e. VDSL without POTS)
Are Openreach offering >80Mbps profiles? My line is around 76Mbps (Huawei cabinet, Broadcom modem) so I think it could go higher if a higher speed profile was available.
Deutsche Telekom will sell you 250Mbps VDSL. For a time BT would sell you 300Mbps G.FAST which is like having VDSL with the cabinet at the top of your pole, although I think the access layer is different (TDD not FDD).
On 15 Apr 2025 at 10:07:48 BST, "wasbit" <[email protected]> wrote:
On 14/04/2025 19:40, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 14/04/2025 10:59, wasbit wrote:
On 14/04/2025 00:41, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on >>>>> 'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent &I'm triple booting windows 8.1/10/11 on ancient hardware.
decent.
Snip <> Not strictly true.
If you install Win11 via one of the published work-arounds, will you
still get OS updates in future?
Who knows? It's up to the vagaries of Microsoft.
I should also say that it is installed as a technical exercise & for
familiarity. There is no personal information on there.
Win-11 runs nicely in a VirtualBox VM on my Mac Mini.
It's the first Win OS that I remember, that has decent fonts instead of all the dotty ones. So it even looks nice.
On 14/04/2025 19:30, Sam Plusnet wrote:
snip <
I have thought about one of the many Dell Optiflex machines which seemThere are a number of free programmes that say that they can do that but
to dominate the second hand market, but I suspect I would end up
replacing that fairly quickly - and I do dislike all the hassle
involved in transferring my applications & data onto a new(er) setup.
I have never tried any of them for this purpose.
Clonezilla - http://clonezilla.org
Disk Genius Free (was Partition Guru - also Portable 32/64bit)- https:// www.diskgenius.com/download.php
Hasleo Disk Clone - https://www.easyuefi.com/disk-clone/disk-clone-
home.html
Macrium Reflect - https://www.softpedia.com/get/System/Back-Up-and- Recovery/Macrium-Reflect-Free-Edition.shtml
NB: Acronis True Image, Paragon Drive Copy need the non freeware versions.
Interesting.
If the official apple adapters were use to end up with a
firewire I/F, I wonder if the Win-11 image would be able to
connect to my Nikon scanner via those adapters.
Which mac mini is it, and how much ram is needed ?.
On 14/04/2025 22:34, Pancho wrote:
On 4/14/25 20:30, John Rumm wrote:
On 14/04/2025 18:26, GB wrote:Where do you think this lame performance manifests itself, on a
On 14/04/2025 17:38, No mail wrote:
Consider whether you *need* a desktop machine. A re-furb laptop
(from the likes of Tier1) will come with an in-built UPS ...
The OP asked about a new mb for his desktop, but you can buy a quite
capable N100 machine for £100, or so. That will run browsers,
email, etc, which probably covers 90% of users.
Them that can put up with pretty lame performance anyway! i5 / Ryzen
5 would be a better starting point for a general purpose machine. The
N100 might be alright for a media (consumption) PC.
general purpose machine?
Comparatively sluggish response and general lacklustre performance. Poor experience with VMs or any CPU intensive task like transcoding/rendering video.
If you are used to using low end machines, then you might be ok with it.
If you are more used to a reasonable business spec machine then a low
end CPU will feel like a very poor relation.
On 15/04/2025 16:56, Andy Burns wrote:
Theo wrote:
John Rumm wrote:My speed didn't budge when I switched to SoGEA, didn't think openreach used profile 35b due to interference? Might be nice if the offered it after POTS finally dies in 2027?
Are Openreach offering >80Mbps profiles?The Natural Philosopher wrote:
FTTC is not capable of more tnan around 80Mps
Actually it can go to about 140 on SoGEA lines (i.e. VDSL without POTS) >>
Mine did: 28 with POTS, which fits with the graph for 1km from the
cabinet; now seeing 48.
On 15/04/2025 18:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 15/04/2025 16:44, Andrew wrote:
The Nikon scan software only ever ran on windows and AppleNot necessarily
Macs <= 2008, so Linux is presumably out of the running.
Vuescan should work on all platforms. Its a free download. Try it on windows first, if it works there it will work on Linux.
Update. Its not free if you want all features, including slide scanning :(
On 15/04/2025 10:30, Tim Streater wrote:
On 15 Apr 2025 at 10:07:48 BST, "wasbit" <[email protected]>Mention of dotty fonts brought back memories of my first (dot matrix) printer. Cost me a fortune and didn't even do proper descenders (only 7 pin).
wrote:
On 14/04/2025 19:40, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 14/04/2025 10:59, wasbit wrote:
On 14/04/2025 00:41, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on >>>>>> 'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent & >>>>>> decent.I'm triple booting windows 8.1/10/11 on ancient hardware.
Snip <> Not strictly true.
If you install Win11 via one of the published work-arounds, will you
still get OS updates in future?
Who knows? It's up to the vagaries of Microsoft.
I should also say that it is installed as a technical exercise & for
familiarity. There is no personal information on there.
Win-11 runs nicely in a VirtualBox VM on my Mac Mini.
It's the first Win OS that I remember, that has decent fonts instead
of all
the dotty ones. So it even looks nice.
On 14/04/2025 19:40, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 14/04/2025 10:59, wasbit wrote:
On 14/04/2025 00:41, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run onNot strictly true.
'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent &
decent.
Snip <
I'm triple booting windows 8.1/10/11 on ancient hardware.
If you install Win11 via one of the published work-arounds, will you
still get OS updates in future?
Who knows? It's up to the vagaries of Microsoft.
On 14/04/2025 19:36, Sam Plusnet wrote:installed.
On 14/04/2025 15:45, Theo wrote:I thought that but having checked briefly and those coming from dealers appear to conform to the Win/11 requirements. I believe many of these have agreements with Microsoft, which they would break if they sold machines incompatible with the OS
Chris Green <[email protected]> wrote:
Theo <[email protected]> wrote:
Yes, that's what I use as my 'desktop' machine now. I have a Fujitsu
Once you go down this road, you might find you can pick up a whole mini PC
for £200-300 which is the price of a mobo/CPU/RAM combo. Even less if >>>>> you're prepared to consider a used ex-office mini PC.
Esprimo Q957 bought refurbished from eBay for £142. I don't think
it's quite up to Windows 11 but I'm sure similar later models will be.
Yes, look for machines that have at least an 8th gen Intel or a Ryzen 3000. >>>
If you're running Linux or Win10 (or prepared to run Win 11 unsupported), >>> there are some very good deals on the 7th gen/2000 series machines which >>> officially won't run Win 11 - they start at about £50 including RAM and SSD
on ebay.
There are plenty of refurbished machines[1] for sale which say they come with Win11 Pro.
I _suspect_ a fair number of those do not meet the Win11 hardware requirements - but the sellers have installed that OS via one of the work-arounds.
I wonder if those machines will be able to get later OS updates?
[1] I was looking at a range of Dell Optiflex PCs
For example Tier-1 only have Optiplex (not Optiflex) with Gen-8 I3/I5/I7 CPUs which I think are the minium for Windows/11. I assume these will all have TPM 2. I note there are instructions on the Dell site for upgrading the TPM on some PCs.
. on the other hand I see there are some Lenovo T470s on E-Bay with Windows/11 and its not supported on those machines...
.. I suppose its Buyer Beware...
Dave
G4UGM
On Mon, 14 Apr 2025 14:10:16 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]d> wrote:
On 14/04/2025 12:23, Theo wrote:
RJH <[email protected]> wrote:Absolutely. 16GB ram 256GB storage is under £300 for quality refurbs
Going the other way price-wise, I've just bought a new Mac Mini -
astonishing bit of kit for the size and price (£600, although
quite easy to get discounts).
Given the way MS have been abusing their customers, foisting things
on them they don't want (forced-upgrades, removing features from
W11 over W10, telemetry, adverts, AI, Recall, 'forgetting' that you
disabled those things every time it updates, etc), that's not a bad
option if you can stomach switching to a different platform. If
the base 16GB RAM / 256GB storage isn't enough and you don't want
to pay the Apple tax, there are now third party storage upgrades.
Or switch to Linux, where there's no arbitrary CPU age cutoff.
...running win11 or Linux ...And with 16GB RAM you can run Virtualbox
for those must have windows programs..
Does anybody actually *want* win 11?
I don't think anyone in business wanted anything after Win7, or maybe
even XP. But just as most sharks have to keep swimming to breathe, MS
has to keep pulling rabbits, or turkeys, out of the hat to stay in
business.
Office has been rented for some time, something that MS always wanted
to do with all its software, so I suppose it's only a matter of time
before Windows goes subscription-only, and they don't have to keep
pretending to develop it. Newer and better applications will always
happen, but in general the OS doesn't need 'a complete rewrite' (not
that it really happens) every few years.
Much of the change in Linux is due to having to keep up with hardware
changes that new versions of Windows require the manufacturers to keep making. I still have a 32-bit netbook running the latest version of
Debian, but that will be the last version with 386 code.
On 15/04/2025 10:30, Tim Streater wrote:
On 15 Apr 2025 at 10:07:48 BST, "wasbit" <[email protected]> wrote: >>
On 14/04/2025 19:40, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 14/04/2025 10:59, wasbit wrote:
On 14/04/2025 00:41, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on >>>>>> 'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent & >>>>>> decent.I'm triple booting windows 8.1/10/11 on ancient hardware.
Snip <> Not strictly true.
If you install Win11 via one of the published work-arounds, will you
still get OS updates in future?
Who knows? It's up to the vagaries of Microsoft.
I should also say that it is installed as a technical exercise & for
familiarity. There is no personal information on there.
Win-11 runs nicely in a VirtualBox VM on my Mac Mini.
It's the first Win OS that I remember, that has decent fonts instead of all >> the dotty ones. So it even looks nice.
Interesting.
If the official apple adapters were use to end up with a
firewire I/F, I wonder if the Win-11 image would be able to
connect to my Nikon scanner via those adapters.
Which mac mini is it, and how much ram is needed ?.
Be grateful that you never had to develop an interface for daisy wheel printers - timing the hammer fire and wheel rotation was a nightmare.
ESD wasn't completely understood and a discharge during printing often resulted in showers of "petals" - but the print quality was great. Swing
the lamp!
On 14/04/2025 22:34, Pancho wrote:
On 4/14/25 20:30, John Rumm wrote:
On 14/04/2025 18:26, GB wrote:Where do you think this lame performance manifests itself, on a
On 14/04/2025 17:38, No mail wrote:
Consider whether you *need* a desktop machine. A re-furb laptop
(from the likes of Tier1) will come with an in-built UPS ...
The OP asked about a new mb for his desktop, but you can buy a quite
capable N100 machine for £100, or so. That will run browsers,
email, etc, which probably covers 90% of users.
Them that can put up with pretty lame performance anyway! i5 / Ryzen
5 would be a better starting point for a general purpose machine. The
N100 might be alright for a media (consumption) PC.
general purpose machine?
Comparatively sluggish response and general lacklustre performance. Poor experience with VMs or any CPU intensive task like transcoding/rendering video.
If you are used to using low end machines, then you might be ok with it.
If you are more used to a reasonable business spec machine then a low
end CPU will feel like a very poor relation.
What activities benefit from the Ryzen 5?
Less of the above!
Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 15/04/2025 10:30, Tim Streater wrote:Be grateful that you never had to develop an interface for daisy wheel printers - timing the hammer fire and wheel rotation was a nightmare.
On 15 Apr 2025 at 10:07:48 BST, "wasbit" <[email protected]>Mention of dotty fonts brought back memories of my first (dot matrix)
wrote:
On 14/04/2025 19:40, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 14/04/2025 10:59, wasbit wrote:
On 14/04/2025 00:41, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on >>>>>>> 'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent & >>>>>>> decent.I'm triple booting windows 8.1/10/11 on ancient hardware.
Snip <> Not strictly true.
If you install Win11 via one of the published work-arounds, will you >>>>> still get OS updates in future?
Who knows? It's up to the vagaries of Microsoft.
I should also say that it is installed as a technical exercise & for
familiarity. There is no personal information on there.
Win-11 runs nicely in a VirtualBox VM on my Mac Mini.
It's the first Win OS that I remember, that has decent fonts instead
of all
the dotty ones. So it even looks nice.
printer. Cost me a fortune and didn't even do proper descenders (only 7
pin).
ESD wasn't completely understood and a discharge during printing often resulted in showers of "petals" - but the print quality was great. Swing
the lamp!
Running a slide scanner, it's worth keeping an old computer around
to run it. The scanner in front of me, it's been driven by an old
computer (and async SCSI), and that's all the old computer is there for.
Is to run that scanner. I considered moving it to some other computer,
but it would be nothing but a continuing hassle to keep running. A computer with a frozen OS, is perfect for the job.
On 14/04/2025 05:39, Paul wrote:.
On Sun, 4/13/2025 7:41 PM, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on 'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent & decent.
Having thought about it some more, I realise most of my PC dates from 2016 so regardless of Microsoft's messing around, it is time for a refresh.
I'm happy with the peripherals I have, so it's just the Motherboard/CPU/RAM/CPU Cooler that I want to replace. To make life easier, I want to buy a ready built & tested bundle.
Last time around,I bought such a bundle from Novatech, and I was very happy with the result. I might still buy from them, but their bundles get very expensive very quickly (e.g. a modest bundle is ~£300, the next is £740 and sharply up from there)
Question: Can anyone recommend other firms which offer such (built & tested) bundles, and are they good if/when things need attention?
(I can recommend Novatech since they replaced my first bundle without a quibble when it suddenly died after a year of use.)
Question 2: My current system is Intel-based. Is there any advantage to going for a Ryzen-based system at the moment?
I am not into the latest & greatest in gaming, so I have no interest in overclocking the thing into meltdown.
To give the folks a flavour of what you've got currently, give us a dump on your hardware.
We can use this information, to give you a comparable system closer to what you've
got, without going overboard on the shiny aspect.
Using a different utility I already had loaded:
Intel Core i7-6700K
GIGABYTE Z170XP-SLI-CF
16 GB RAM (2 off Kingston KHX2666C15D4/8G) @1333 MHz
GPU NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 6GB
I have a mixture of drives. An M.2 SSD, a SATA SSD, and a few HDDs in this machine, which will mostly go into the new setup.
On Mon, 4/14/2025 11:07 AM, Joe wrote:
On Mon, 14 Apr 2025 14:10:16 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]d> wrote:
On 14/04/2025 12:23, Theo wrote:
RJH <[email protected]> wrote:Absolutely. 16GB ram 256GB storage is under £300 for quality refurbs
Going the other way price-wise, I've just bought a new Mac Mini -
astonishing bit of kit for the size and price (£600, although
quite easy to get discounts).
Given the way MS have been abusing their customers, foisting things
on them they don't want (forced-upgrades, removing features from
W11 over W10, telemetry, adverts, AI, Recall, 'forgetting' that you
disabled those things every time it updates, etc), that's not a bad
option if you can stomach switching to a different platform. If
the base 16GB RAM / 256GB storage isn't enough and you don't want
to pay the Apple tax, there are now third party storage upgrades.
Or switch to Linux, where there's no arbitrary CPU age cutoff.
...running win11 or Linux ...And with 16GB RAM you can run Virtualbox
for those must have windows programs..
Does anybody actually *want* win 11?
I don't think anyone in business wanted anything after Win7, or maybe
even XP. But just as most sharks have to keep swimming to breathe, MS
has to keep pulling rabbits, or turkeys, out of the hat to stay in
business.
Office has been rented for some time, something that MS always wanted
to do with all its software, so I suppose it's only a matter of time
before Windows goes subscription-only, and they don't have to keep
pretending to develop it. Newer and better applications will always
happen, but in general the OS doesn't need 'a complete rewrite' (not
that it really happens) every few years.
Much of the change in Linux is due to having to keep up with hardware
changes that new versions of Windows require the manufacturers to keep
making. I still have a 32-bit netbook running the latest version of
Debian, but that will be the last version with 386 code.
A significant problem with Linux, is video card support. It's
been undermined by the delivery of binary blobs. Nouveau could have
been the answer... if we could get hardware specs.
I looked at this, to address the "how much help will I give to
the 400,000,000 people throwing away computers". And the mish-mash
of unnecessary standards changes, makes the scavenging of machines
labour intensive.
Here's how it goes. Kernel 5.15 *works* for old hardware. But it is
going out of support soon, and if I sell some victim needing rescue
on that, they'll be back in a year, two years, with a "I just installed
this new thing, and my machine won't...". Then what do I do for an answer ?
The expectation of the people, is we will keep this perfectly
adequate material running forever. And sadly, that's not how the
Linux ecosystem sees it (Wayland, UEFI, GOP video cards, Secure Boot...). That's no way to rescue hardware. PCi Express cards, the user could be holding one in their hand, the slot in the machines will be PCI Express,
but the cards can't be moved just anywhere. And the industry had a
hand in ensuring they broke that. It's what you expect of scumbags.
As a "simulation" of a rescue, I took a 7900GT PCI Express card from
my dead motherboard, put it in another box and tried to "rescue" the
other box. Linux booted, the screen froze with some graphics on it.
The card is out of support from a DKMS perspective (no NVidia driver).
and it's a legacy VBIOS card. If I buy a 2025 motheboard, I can't
even reuse that card. Windows 10, running on that simulation setup,
ran the video card OK... but it's on a hairs edge of being out of
support.
Just the collecting of information and handling of details, will
slow down the rates for the rescue operation. It would never have
been possible to rescue 400,000,000 machines -- it would require too
much organization to do it properly. But even piece-meal rescue,
it's just not going to work.
Google makes ChromeOS, a follow-on for Neverware CloudReady. I installed CloudReady on one desktop - it worked. I tried on a second NVidia machine,
it didn't work. Batting average 0.5 . Well, the Google version of this
*only works on iGPUs*. It has no intention of working with regular video cards. Now, think about what percentage of 400,000,000 machines fit
the iGPU time span they support. I thought they would at least keep the NVidia card support in the source code they were given, but the installer just flat out refuses to move forward (no necessary buttons appear on
the starting installer interface), which is how Google tells you "your
video card sucks". They don't even put a text error message up. And no,
it wasn't an inability to draw on the screen. They could draw on it.
I booted a machine with an iGPU, not to install that OS, but at least
to verify what the installer screen was supposed to look like.
Paul
The usecase for VMs massively decreased with Docker, and the main
constraint was RAM not CPU. I used to use them all the time, but not so
much in the last 10 years. Now we have WSL2, pretty much never.
Pancho wrote:
The usecase for VMs massively decreased with Docker, and the main constraint was RAM not CPU. I used to use them all the time, but not so much in the last 10 years. Now we have WSL2, pretty much never.
Huh? WSL2 VMs sit on top of Hyper-V ...
On 15 Apr 2025 at 22:11:37 BST, "No mail" <[email protected]> wrote:
Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 15/04/2025 10:30, Tim Streater wrote:Be grateful that you never had to develop an interface for daisy wheel
On 15 Apr 2025 at 10:07:48 BST, "wasbit" <[email protected]>Mention of dotty fonts brought back memories of my first (dot matrix)
wrote:
On 14/04/2025 19:40, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 14/04/2025 10:59, wasbit wrote:Who knows? It's up to the vagaries of Microsoft.
On 14/04/2025 00:41, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not >>>>>>>> run on 'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly >>>>>>>> recent & decent.I'm triple booting windows 8.1/10/11 on ancient hardware.
Snip <> Not strictly true.
If you install Win11 via one of the published work-arounds, will
you still get OS updates in future?
I should also say that it is installed as a technical exercise & for >>>>> familiarity. There is no personal information on there.
Win-11 runs nicely in a VirtualBox VM on my Mac Mini.
It's the first Win OS that I remember, that has decent fonts instead
of all the dotty ones. So it even looks nice.
printer. Cost me a fortune and didn't even do proper descenders (only
7 pin).
printers - timing the hammer fire and wheel rotation was a nightmare.
ESD wasn't completely understood and a discharge during printing often
resulted in showers of "petals" - but the print quality was great.
Swing the lamp!
Huh. Be grateful you never had to develop on an Elliott 803B. 8k of
store, the only I/O device being a slowish 5-hole paper tape
reader/punch, the only way of developing source tapes (using Elliott Autocode, which itself was pretty limited), being a teletype which occasionally mispunched the typed character onto the tape.
My first exposure to a real computer, however, so it was still
fascinating.
The thing is, I don't think VMs or rendering video are general usage.
The usecase for VMs massively decreased with Docker, and the main
constraint was RAM not CPU. I used to use them all the time, but not so
much in the last 10 years. Now we have WSL2, pretty much never.
I'm not sure why people would render video. I last bought a DVD 15-20
years ago. If I were interested, I suspect I would be looking at
offloading that onto a purpose designed machine with an appropriate
video card.
If I was transcoding, it would probably be on a lot of the time and I
would be concerned about electricity cost. Not something I would use a general purpose PC for.
So it feels like requirements for powerful hardware are "you ain't going
to need it" for most people. It's like advising a fat middle-aged
cyclist to buy a £5000 carbon Bike, or an amateur golfer to buy
professional clubs.
If you are used to using low end machines, then you might be ok with
it. If you are more used to a reasonable business spec machine then a
low end CPU will feel like a very poor relation.
The thing is, I'm sitting using an Orange Pi5, which is a 2-watt toy.
The problem isn't that it feels slow, it doesn't. The problem is that
the OS is buggy, not fully implemented.
I think Apple got this right, switching to an Arm chip for the Mac Mini.
That is what the common man wants. So we should be careful when we offer advice on which PC to buy.
On 2025-04-15, wasbit <[email protected]> wrote:
On 14/04/2025 19:40, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 14/04/2025 10:59, wasbit wrote:
On 14/04/2025 00:41, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would notNot strictly true.
run on 'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly
recent & decent.
Snip <
I'm triple booting windows 8.1/10/11 on ancient hardware.
If you install Win11 via one of the published work-arounds, will
you still get OS updates in future?
Who knows? It's up to the vagaries of Microsoft.
I have a machine that had one of those bodges. It stopped working
when MS did an update. I wouldn't count on them working indefinitely.
t makes it easier to select a bundle, once you have some
idea what direction you're taking. But at least compare them,
compare them to your 6700K, before going too much further.
These things are enough of a nuisance as home projects,
without adding selection uncertainty to the mix. My last upgrade
was a "wild ride". Not nearly as easy as projects in the past.
Paul wrote:
Intel Core i7-6700K @ 4.00GHz 2,505
Mine's a Xeon E3-1245v3, which is essentially a slower clocked version
of that, it's a decade old, but not feeling slow yet ... thankfully it doesn't run Windows, so lack of TPM and generation of CPU isn't an issue.
On 15 Apr 2025 21:49:15 GMT
Bernard Peek <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2025-04-15, wasbit <[email protected]> wrote:
On 14/04/2025 19:40, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 14/04/2025 10:59, wasbit wrote:
On 14/04/2025 00:41, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would notNot strictly true.
run on 'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly
recent & decent.
Snip <
I'm triple booting windows 8.1/10/11 on ancient hardware.
If you install Win11 via one of the published work-arounds, will
you still get OS updates in future?
Who knows? It's up to the vagaries of Microsoft.
I have a machine that had one of those bodges. It stopped working
when MS did an update. I wouldn't count on them working indefinitely.
It doesn't seem widely known that there are multiple generations of
Win11, with some earlier Win11 machines not able to upgrade to the later one(s) and the early ones are now out of support. Later versions will
not work with the early Trusted Platform hardware, even when it's real.
"Windows 11 has an annual feature update cadence. Feature updates are released in the second half of the calendar year and come with 24
months of support for Home, Pro, Pro for Workstations, and Pro
Education editions;"
"Windows 11 version 22H2 reached the end of life for Home and Pro
editions on October 8, 2024. This means that Microsoft stopped
providing security updates and non-security updates for these editions"
So there are two versions of Win11 gone end-of-life before Win10, and
many refurbished computers will soon lose the ability to run a
supported Win11, even when sold with it installed. This would seem to
be an escalation of Microsoft's normal planned obsolescence policy.
Intel Core i7-6700K @ 4.00GHz 2,505
So there are two versions of Win11 gone end-of-life before Win10, and
many refurbished computers will soon lose the ability to run a
supported Win11, even when sold with it installed. This would seem to
be an escalation of Microsoft's normal planned obsolescence policy.
On 16/04/2025 08:56, Paul wrote:
<TL-DR>
t makes it easier to select a bundle, once you have some
idea what direction you're taking. But at least compare them,
compare them to your 6700K, before going too much further.
These things are enough of a nuisance as home projects,
without adding selection uncertainty to the mix. My last upgrade
was a "wild ride". Not nearly as easy as projects in the past.
Look. It really is not that complicated.
Simpley look at what the machine is going to be used for, and use that
to determine the CPU spec and RAM size.
I'm not sure why people would render video. I last bought a DVD 15-20
years ago. If I were interested, I suspect I would be looking at
offloading that onto a purpose designed machine with an appropriate
video card.
If I was transcoding, it would probably be on a lot of the time and I
would be concerned about electricity cost. Not something I would use a general purpose PC for.
to need it" for most people. It's like advising a fat middle-aged
cyclist to buy a £5000 carbon Bike, or an amateur golfer to buy
professional clubs.
On 16/04/2025 08:56, Paul wrote:
<TL-DR>
t makes it easier to select a bundle, once you have some
idea what direction you're taking. But at least compare them,
compare them to your 6700K, before going too much further.
These things are enough of a nuisance as home projects,
without adding selection uncertainty to the mix. My last upgrade
was a "wild ride". Not nearly as easy as projects in the past.
Look. It really is not that complicated.
Simpley look at what the machine is going to be used for, and use that to determine the CPU spec and RAM size.
And RAM can usually be increased later.
All machines are going to have 256GB+ of SSD of one sort or another.
All machines except seriously old cheap shit are going to run Linux or Win 11 just fine
Search for a machine that fits that budget, bearing in mind that a new Mobo and CPU is likely to cost more than a whole refurbed 4 years old ex corporate PC with pre installed windows
No one wants to mess with OS and hardware upgrades unless they have to.
Pick the shortest route to the desired destination unless you enjoy the journey.
If anyone is interested, I have 803 stuff here:
http://www.ancientgeek.org.uk/Elliott/803/
Joe wrote:
So there are two versions of Win11 gone end-of-life before Win10,
and many refurbished computers will soon lose the ability to run a supported Win11, even when sold with it installed. This would seem
to be an escalation of Microsoft's normal planned obsolescence
policy.
That's not right (low-rent vloggers inventing issues to get likes).
Microsoft don't support OEMs supplying latest Win11 on older
hardware, but any hardware that came with Win11 installed back when,
can upgrade to the latest Win11 now.
On Wed, 16 Apr 2025 07:49:44 +0000, Tim Streater wrote:
On 15 Apr 2025 at 22:11:37 BST, "No mail" <[email protected]> wrote:
Be grateful that you never had to develop an interface for daisy wheel
printers - timing the hammer fire and wheel rotation was a nightmare.
ESD wasn't completely understood and a discharge during printing often
resulted in showers of "petals" - but the print quality was great.
Swing the lamp!
Huh. Be grateful you never had to develop on an Elliott 803B. 8k of
store, the only I/O device being a slowish 5-hole paper tape
reader/punch, the only way of developing source tapes (using Elliott
Autocode, which itself was pretty limited), being a teletype which
occasionally mispunched the typed character onto the tape.
My first exposure to a real computer, however, so it was still
fascinating.
If anyone is interested, I have 803 stuff here:
http://www.ancientgeek.org.uk/Elliott/803/
On 4/15/25 12:53, John Rumm wrote:
On 14/04/2025 22:34, Pancho wrote:
On 4/14/25 20:30, John Rumm wrote:
On 14/04/2025 18:26, GB wrote:Where do you think this lame performance manifests itself, on a
On 14/04/2025 17:38, No mail wrote:
Consider whether you *need* a desktop machine. A re-furb laptop
(from the likes of Tier1) will come with an in-built UPS ...
The OP asked about a new mb for his desktop, but you can buy a
quite capable N100 machine for £100, or so. That will run
browsers, email, etc, which probably covers 90% of users.
Them that can put up with pretty lame performance anyway! i5 / Ryzen
5 would be a better starting point for a general purpose machine.
The N100 might be alright for a media (consumption) PC.
general purpose machine?
Comparatively sluggish response and general lacklustre performance.
Poor experience with VMs or any CPU intensive task like transcoding/
rendering video.
The thing is, I don't think VMs or rendering video are general usage.
The usecase for VMs massively decreased with Docker, and the main
constraint was RAM not CPU. I used to use them all the time, but not so
much in the last 10 years. Now we have WSL2, pretty much never.
I'm not sure why people would render video. I last bought a DVD 15-20
years ago. If I were interested, I suspect I would be looking at
offloading that onto a purpose designed machine with an appropriate
video card.
If I was transcoding, it would probably be on a lot of the time and I
would be concerned about electricity cost. Not something I would use a general purpose PC for.
So it feels like requirements for powerful hardware are "you ain't going
to need it" for most people. It's like advising a fat middle-aged
cyclist to buy a £5000 carbon Bike, or an amateur golfer to buy
professional clubs.
If you are used to using low end machines, then you might be ok with
it. If you are more used to a reasonable business spec machine then a
low end CPU will feel like a very poor relation.
The thing is, I'm sitting using an Orange Pi5, which is a 2-watt toy.
The problem isn't that it feels slow, it doesn't. The problem is that
the OS is buggy, not fully implemented.
I think Apple got this right, switching to an Arm chip for the Mac Mini.
That is what the common man wants. So we should be careful when we offer advice on which PC to buy.
On 16 Apr 2025 at 09:39:49 BST, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/04/2025 08:56, Paul wrote:
<TL-DR>
t makes it easier to select a bundle, once you have some
idea what direction you're taking. But at least compare them,
compare them to your 6700K, before going too much further.
These things are enough of a nuisance as home projects,
without adding selection uncertainty to the mix. My last upgrade
was a "wild ride". Not nearly as easy as projects in the past.
Look. It really is not that complicated.
Simpley look at what the machine is going to be used for, and use that
to determine the CPU spec and RAM size.
Well, if you want what you do to be done more quickly, or quietly, or look better and made from better and longer lasting components, with decent I/O, you might want to pay more for a higher specced machine.
There's also the issue of future proofing. Things like OS upgrades (how long will W11 last?). My 5 year old Mac wouldn't run some of the latest features - AI in particular. That might be something of interest in the future, and a lower spec machine might not cope.
Andrew <[email protected]> wrote:2012 is only 1 year on from the Novatech M/B bundle that I bought
Interesting.
If the official apple adapters were use to end up with a
firewire I/F, I wonder if the Win-11 image would be able to
connect to my Nikon scanner via those adapters.
The Firewire interface shows up as a PCIe device, so if Virtualbox on Mac will let you do PCIe passthrough then it might.
Which mac mini is it, and how much ram is needed ?.
Another option is just to buy an old Intel Mac Mini with onboard Firewire
and then install Windows on it. I think they may have only supported Win7 natively but it may be possible to upgrade it through 10 to 11.
The last Mini with native FW was the Late 2012 and people have got W11 working on 2011s/2012s. They start at about £40-50 on ebay.
Theo
On 16 Apr 2025 at 05:22:10 BST, "Paul" <[email protected]d> wrote:
Running a slide scanner, it's worth keeping an old computer around
to run it. The scanner in front of me, it's been driven by an old
computer (and async SCSI), and that's all the old computer is there for.
Is to run that scanner. I considered moving it to some other computer,
but it would be nothing but a continuing hassle to keep running. A computer >> with a frozen OS, is perfect for the job.
This is the only viable approach, and is what I do. Old Mac Mini running Snow Leopard or so.
On Wed, 16 Apr 2025 07:49:44 +0000, Tim Streater wrote:
On 15 Apr 2025 at 22:11:37 BST, "No mail" <[email protected]> wrote:
Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 15/04/2025 10:30, Tim Streater wrote:Be grateful that you never had to develop an interface for daisy wheel
On 15 Apr 2025 at 10:07:48 BST, "wasbit" <[email protected]>Mention of dotty fonts brought back memories of my first (dot matrix)
wrote:
On 14/04/2025 19:40, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 14/04/2025 10:59, wasbit wrote:Who knows? It's up to the vagaries of Microsoft.
On 14/04/2025 00:41, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not >>>>>>>>> run on 'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly >>>>>>>>> recent & decent.I'm triple booting windows 8.1/10/11 on ancient hardware.
Snip <> Not strictly true.
If you install Win11 via one of the published work-arounds, will >>>>>>> you still get OS updates in future?
I should also say that it is installed as a technical exercise & for >>>>>> familiarity. There is no personal information on there.
Win-11 runs nicely in a VirtualBox VM on my Mac Mini.
It's the first Win OS that I remember, that has decent fonts instead >>>>> of all the dotty ones. So it even looks nice.
printer. Cost me a fortune and didn't even do proper descenders (only >>>> 7 pin).
printers - timing the hammer fire and wheel rotation was a nightmare.
ESD wasn't completely understood and a discharge during printing often
resulted in showers of "petals" - but the print quality was great.
Swing the lamp!
Huh. Be grateful you never had to develop on an Elliott 803B. 8k of
store, the only I/O device being a slowish 5-hole paper tape
reader/punch, the only way of developing source tapes (using Elliott
Autocode, which itself was pretty limited), being a teletype which
occasionally mispunched the typed character onto the tape.
My first exposure to a real computer, however, so it was still
fascinating.
If anyone is interested, I have 803 stuff here:
http://www.ancientgeek.org.uk/Elliott/803/
The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]d> wrote:
On 15/04/2025 18:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 15/04/2025 16:44, Andrew wrote:Update. Its not free if you want all features, including slide scanning :(
The Nikon scan software only ever ran on windows and AppleNot necessarily
Macs <= 2008, so Linux is presumably out of the running.
Vuescan should work on all platforms. Its a free download. Try it on
windows first, if it works there it will work on Linux.
It's £100 if you want slide scanning. But it could be a price worth paying compared with buying more hardware.
Although you can buy Firewire PCIe cards for a tenner on ebay, so a modern machine with PCIe slots may well be able to run the Windows software (assuming it still works under W10/11).
Theo
On 15 Apr 2025 at 22:11:37 BST, "No mail" <[email protected]> wrote:
Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 15/04/2025 10:30, Tim Streater wrote:Be grateful that you never had to develop an interface for daisy wheel
On 15 Apr 2025 at 10:07:48 BST, "wasbit" <[email protected]>Mention of dotty fonts brought back memories of my first (dot matrix)
wrote:
On 14/04/2025 19:40, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 14/04/2025 10:59, wasbit wrote:
On 14/04/2025 00:41, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on >>>>>>>> 'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent & >>>>>>>> decent.I'm triple booting windows 8.1/10/11 on ancient hardware.
Snip <> Not strictly true.
If you install Win11 via one of the published work-arounds, will you >>>>>> still get OS updates in future?
Who knows? It's up to the vagaries of Microsoft.
I should also say that it is installed as a technical exercise & for >>>>> familiarity. There is no personal information on there.
Win-11 runs nicely in a VirtualBox VM on my Mac Mini.
It's the first Win OS that I remember, that has decent fonts instead
of all
the dotty ones. So it even looks nice.
printer. Cost me a fortune and didn't even do proper descenders (only 7 >>> pin).
printers - timing the hammer fire and wheel rotation was a nightmare.
ESD wasn't completely understood and a discharge during printing often
resulted in showers of "petals" - but the print quality was great. Swing
the lamp!
Huh. Be grateful you never had to develop on an Elliott 803B. 8k of store, the
only I/O device being a slowish 5-hole paper tape reader/punch, the only way of developing source tapes (using Elliott Autocode, which itself was pretty limited), being a teletype which occasionally mispunched the typed character onto the tape.
My first exposure to a real computer, however, so it was still fascinating.
I thought that but having checked briefly and those coming from dealers appear to conform to the Win/11 requirements. I believe many of these
have agreements with Microsoft, which they would break if they sold
machines incompatible with the OS installed.
For example Tier-1 only have Optiplex (not Optiflex) with Gen-8 I3/I5/I7
CPUs which I think are the minium for Windows/11. I assume these will
all have TPM 2. I note there are instructions on the Dell site for
upgrading the TPM on some PCs.
. on the other hand I see there are some Lenovo T470s on E-Bay with Windows/11 and its not supported on those machines...
On 15 Apr 2025 at 10:07:48 BST, "wasbit" <[email protected]> wrote:
On 14/04/2025 19:40, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 14/04/2025 10:59, wasbit wrote:
On 14/04/2025 00:41, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on >>>>> 'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent &I'm triple booting windows 8.1/10/11 on ancient hardware.
decent.
Snip <> Not strictly true.
If you install Win11 via one of the published work-arounds, will you
still get OS updates in future?
Who knows? It's up to the vagaries of Microsoft.
I should also say that it is installed as a technical exercise & for
familiarity. There is no personal information on there.
Win-11 runs nicely in a VirtualBox VM on my Mac Mini.
It's the first Win OS that I remember, that has decent fonts instead of all the dotty ones. So it even looks nice.
On 14/04/2025 20:33, David Wade wrote:
I thought that but having checked briefly and those coming from dealers appear to conform to the Win/11 requirements. I believe many of these
have agreements with Microsoft, which they would break if they sold machines incompatible with the OS installed.
For example Tier-1 only have Optiplex (not Optiflex) with Gen-8 I3/I5/I7 CPUs which I think are the minium for Windows/11. I assume these will
all have TPM 2. I note there are instructions on the Dell site for upgrading the TPM on some PCs.
. on the other hand I see there are some Lenovo T470s on E-Bay with Windows/11 and its not supported on those machines...
HP Elitebook 840 G5
16 GB DDR4
Intel Core i7-8550U 8th Gen
13" / 14"
Are about £120-140 on eBay.
I think this is the cheapest entrant to Win11.
On 16/04/2025 09:25, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 16 Apr 2025 07:49:44 +0000, Tim Streater wrote:ROFL. The London Hospital had one of those before they 'upgraded' to a
On 15 Apr 2025 at 22:11:37 BST, "No mail" <[email protected]> wrote:
Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 15/04/2025 10:30, Tim Streater wrote:Be grateful that you never had to develop an interface for daisy
On 15 Apr 2025 at 10:07:48 BST, "wasbit" <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote:Mention of dotty fonts brought back memories of my first (dot
On 14/04/2025 19:40, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 14/04/2025 10:59, wasbit wrote:Who knows? It's up to the vagaries of Microsoft.
On 14/04/2025 00:41, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not >>>>>>>>>> run on 'older' systems, since I considered my main PC wasI'm triple booting windows 8.1/10/11 on ancient hardware.
fairly recent & decent.
Snip <> Not strictly true.
If you install Win11 via one of the published work-arounds, will >>>>>>>> you still get OS updates in future?
I should also say that it is installed as a technical exercise & >>>>>>> for familiarity. There is no personal information on there.
Win-11 runs nicely in a VirtualBox VM on my Mac Mini.
It's the first Win OS that I remember, that has decent fonts
instead of all the dotty ones. So it even looks nice.
matrix) printer. Cost me a fortune and didn't even do proper
descenders (only 7 pin).
wheel printers - timing the hammer fire and wheel rotation was a
nightmare. ESD wasn't completely understood and a discharge during
printing often resulted in showers of "petals" - but the print
quality was great. Swing the lamp!
Huh. Be grateful you never had to develop on an Elliott 803B. 8k of
store, the only I/O device being a slowish 5-hole paper tape
reader/punch, the only way of developing source tapes (using Elliott
Autocode, which itself was pretty limited), being a teletype which
occasionally mispunched the typed character onto the tape.
My first exposure to a real computer, however, so it was still
fascinating.
If anyone is interested, I have 803 stuff here:
http://www.ancientgeek.org.uk/Elliott/803/
Univac 418-III (complete with a FastRand horizontal drum where the
read/heads were on a bar that oscillated from side to side). It also had
4 'spindryer' fixed head drums with an access time of 4.25 millsecs
which was super fast in those days.
They wrote an entire runtime system supporting 128 terminals around the hospital (1024 character VDU's, 16*64), pre and post journalling to tape
with proper logical transactions. This was the late 60's and early 70's
when most commercial dataprocessing still used punch cards/key-to-disk
etc. The entire runtime system ran as a continuous batch job 23 hours a
day under RTOS the Univac OS which only supported 16 files.
The runtime system created its own relational file system contained
within one of those RTOS files.
All the runtime software was written in Univac assembler, using punch
cards. No VDU's for editting code on the fly !.
I seem to remember hearing that the 803 used magnetic tape with sprocket holes ???
On 16 Apr 2025 at 09:25:55 BST, "Bob Eager" <[email protected]> wrote:
If anyone is interested, I have 803 stuff here:
http://www.ancientgeek.org.uk/Elliott/803/
The one I used was in the Optics Dept of the Physics Building at
Imperial. Supposedly it was to be used by the Optics Dept to do ray
tracing for (I imagine) lens design. But I never saw it used by anyone
other than myself and another student, at the time members of the Astronomical Society.
Another question. I have an HP 32 inch IPS monitor which supports
2560*1440 (orsomething like that) with DVI-D, HDMI and Display Port interfaces.
Does a Mac mini support this ?.
which I suppose might qualify as a low-rent vlogger. They now call it
'end of servicing', which means no more upgrades, security or
otherwise, exactly as 'end of life' did. 21H2 and 22H2 are already EOL,
23H2 will be this year. Currently supported Win11 requires TPM2,
whereas early versions would work with TPM1 hardware.
For example Tier-1 only have Optiplex (not Optiflex) with Gen-8 I3/I5/I7
CPUs which I think are the minium for Windows/11. I assume these will all have TPM 2. I note there are instructions on the Dell site for upgrading
the TPM on some PCs.
I might just as well keep to old mini-tower box and disconnect
it from internet access. Problem is I use ethernet to back it
up to an ageing WD MyCloud device.
On 14/04/2025 20:33, David Wade wrote:
For example Tier-1 only have Optiplex (not Optiflex) with Gen-8 I3/I5/I7 CPUs which I think are the minium for Windows/11. I assume these will all have TPM 2. I note there are instructions on the Dell site for upgrading the TPM on some PCs.
I have upgraded the TPM on an OptiPlex, but apparently the i5-3470 isn't even supported for Windows 10.
On 16/04/2025 08:18, Pancho wrote:
On 4/15/25 12:53, John Rumm wrote:
On 14/04/2025 22:34, Pancho wrote:
On 4/14/25 20:30, John Rumm wrote:
On 14/04/2025 18:26, GB wrote:Where do you think this lame performance manifests itself, on a
On 14/04/2025 17:38, No mail wrote:
Consider whether you *need* a desktop machine. A re-furb laptop
(from the likes of Tier1) will come with an in-built UPS ...
The OP asked about a new mb for his desktop, but you can buy a
quite capable N100 machine for £100, or so. That will run
browsers, email, etc, which probably covers 90% of users.
Them that can put up with pretty lame performance anyway! i5 /
Ryzen 5 would be a better starting point for a general purpose
machine. The N100 might be alright for a media (consumption) PC.
general purpose machine?
Comparatively sluggish response and general lacklustre performance.
Poor experience with VMs or any CPU intensive task like transcoding/
rendering video.
The thing is, I don't think VMs or rendering video are general usage.
Perhaps not, but IME you will immediately "feel" the difference between
a new mid range business spec machine and a new "low end" or ageing mid
range desktop system.
For example, I have recently rolling out some software updates to a
fleet of machines. The process is not that complicated - quit a couple
of running apps, uninstall a couple, download and install a couple,
start one of the new ones, and then do a bit of config. Most of it
automated in a batch file. Doing it on a >= 10th gen machine gets it
done in less than 5 mins. On a 6th gen i5 it is more like 10, and for a
3rd or 4th gen it is often 15 min. These are all Win 10 or 11 boxes with SSDs.
How much that will affect your workflow will depend much on what you do
and how you do it. If you load a couple of programs and then live in
them all day - the impact of a slower machine is less noticeable. If you
need to run multiple things, and frequently switch between jobs, it is a
much bigger impact.
Perhaps not, but IME you will immediately "feel" the difference between
a new mid range business spec machine and a new "low end" or ageing mid
range desktop system.
On 2025-04-16, Joe <[email protected]> wrote:
which I suppose might qualify as a low-rent vlogger. They now call it
'end of servicing', which means no more upgrades, security or
otherwise, exactly as 'end of life' did. 21H2 and 22H2 are already EOL,
23H2 will be this year. Currently supported Win11 requires TPM2,
whereas early versions would work with TPM1 hardware.
Some beta versions would work with TP1 but TP2 was officially required
from go-live. The compatibility tester that was released before W11 checked for TP2 and if it didn't find one said that the system would not support
W11.
There was a bodge, a registry hack, that would stop W11 from checking. MS said that they would close that loophole, and did.
On 16/04/2025 08:18, Pancho wrote:
The thing is, I don't think VMs or rendering video are general usage.For some people they are.
Making video content about themselves has replaced masturbation as the goto way to obtain a cheap thrill...
About ten years ago my MV died and I got a new one with a core i
something instead of a pentium,. and a Nvidia graffix card
Ran faster and cooler and would run my real time video game.
The thing is, I'm sitting using an Orange Pi5, which is a 2-watt toy.Should have gone to Raspberry...Raspios is pretty tidy these days.
The problem isn't that it feels slow, it doesn't. The problem is that
the OS is buggy, not fully implemented.
I think Apple got this right, switching to an Arm chip for the MacIts certainly getting to the point where a Pi 5 is probably better than
Mini. That is what the common man wants. So we should be careful when
we offer advice on which PC to buy.
an old 32 bit Intel machine.
BUT the availability of precompiled ARM software is simply not as good
yet as on INTEL
I cant at this stage get rid of my INTEL desktop.
I don't know for sure, but I suspect my usage patterns are normal for
people without specific requirements such as gaming, video editing.
On 4/16/25 09:18, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
About ten years ago my MV died and I got a new one with a core i
something instead of a pentium,. and a Nvidia graffix card
Ran faster and cooler and would run my real time video game.
I gave up playing video games 30 years ago, due to blood pressure
problems. I'm surprised you can play.
Although to be fair, I feel better now than I did then. I always
expected to be dead long before the age I am now. Modern medicine is a wonderful thing (and clean living - :o( )
[snip]
The thing is, I'm sitting using an Orange Pi5, which is a 2-watt toy.Should have gone to Raspberry...Raspios is pretty tidy these days.
The problem isn't that it feels slow, it doesn't. The problem is that
the OS is buggy, not fully implemented.
I have both. My perception is that the oPi5 is better performance, but
it's not a fair test, I never got around to installing the rPi5 OS on
NVME as opposed to SD card. I use them both to drive TV screens, a kind
of very smart TV/standard PC. The oPi5 TV is in front of the comfy chair.
I still use an rPi4 as my main always on server as it is fast enough.
I think Apple got this right, switching to an Arm chip for the MacIts certainly getting to the point where a Pi 5 is probably better
Mini. That is what the common man wants. So we should be careful when
we offer advice on which PC to buy.
than an old 32 bit Intel machine.
BUT the availability of precompiled ARM software is simply not as good
yet as on INTEL
Yes, I was debating Remote Desktop servers the other day, I said it
worked on Gnome 47. I neglected to mention I don't think it works on
Aarch64.
I cant at this stage get rid of my INTEL desktop.
I still like MS Excel, but I can remote desktop into Windows/Intel PCs.
Big old towers, hidden away.
On 15/04/2025 10:30, Tim Streater wrote:
On 15 Apr 2025 at 10:07:48 BST, "wasbit" <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 14/04/2025 19:40, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 14/04/2025 10:59, wasbit wrote:
On 14/04/2025 00:41, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on >>>>>> 'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent & >>>>>> decent.I'm triple booting windows 8.1/10/11 on ancient hardware.
Snip <> Not strictly true.
If you install Win11 via one of the published work-arounds, will you
still get OS updates in future?
Who knows? It's up to the vagaries of Microsoft.
I should also say that it is installed as a technical exercise & for
familiarity. There is no personal information on there.
Win-11 runs nicely in a VirtualBox VM on my Mac Mini.
It's the first Win OS that I remember, that has decent fonts instead
of all
the dotty ones. So it even looks nice.
Interesting.
If the official apple adapters were use to end up with a
firewire I/F, I wonder if the Win-11 image would be able to
connect to my Nikon scanner via those adapters.
On 16/04/2025 12:46, John Rumm wrote:
Perhaps not, but IME you will immediately "feel" the difference
between a new mid range business spec machine and a new "low end" or
ageing mid range desktop system.
I'm sure that's true. So, if I were still in business, I'd buy a decent
spec machine. (Like this machine I built years ago, with an i7 CPU. It
cut the recalculation time on some very large spreadsheets down from 30 minutes to 5.)
As it is, though, I generally only have TBird and Chrome open on the PC
these days, and the N100 machine seems perfectly fast enough for my
current usage.
I
don't like linux, it's really not a plug'n'play solution.
On 17/04/2025 13:51, Andrew wrote:
I
don't like linux, it's really not a plug'n'play solution.
It has been for me for the last ten years or so
Notice how few posters there are here saying 'I cant get my Linux to
work' compared with Windows/Mac users...
On 17 Apr 2025 at 18:23:13 BST, "The Natural Philosopher" <[email protected]d> wrote:
On 17/04/2025 13:51, Andrew wrote:
I
don't like linux, it's really not a plug'n'play solution.
It has been for me for the last ten years or so
Notice how few posters there are here saying 'I cant get my Linux to
work' compared with Windows/Mac users...
It's extremely rare that you'll see a Mac-related question here.
1) It mostly works and better than Windows. And I look forward to the time when I can drop an App on the Mint Taskbar and have it trivially create all the stuff needed to have the app as a clickable item there.
2) And why would we post here? We'd post on uk.comp.sys.mac
On 17/04/2025 13:51, Andrew wrote:
I
don't like linux, it's really not a plug'n'play solution.
It has been for me for the last ten years or so
Notice how few posters there are here saying 'I cant get my Linux to
work' compared with Windows/Mac users...
On 17/04/2025 18:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/04/2025 13:51, Andrew wrote:
I
don't like linux, it's really not a plug'n'play solution.
It has been for me for the last ten years or so
Notice how few posters there are here saying 'I cant get my Linux to
work' compared with Windows/Mac users...
Linux users tend to be more technically minded.
On 17/04/2025 22:01, Tim Streater wrote:
On 17 Apr 2025 at 18:23:13 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"That's how mine (MATE) works
<[email protected]d> wrote:
On 17/04/2025 13:51, Andrew wrote:
I
don't like linux, it's really not a plug'n'play solution.
It has been for me for the last ten years or so
Notice how few posters there are here saying 'I cant get my Linux to
work' compared with Windows/Mac users...
It's extremely rare that you'll see a Mac-related question here.
1) It mostly works and better than Windows. And I look forward to the time >> when I can drop an App on the Mint Taskbar and have it trivially create all >> the stuff needed to have the app as a clickable item there.
All though it isn't an 'app' in the nomenclature
2) And why would we post here? We'd post on uk.comp.sys.macWell yes..:-)
I gave up on Macs because it became clear that no mac users actually
knew anything about Macintoshes or OS/X.
There was no support beyond 'buy a new one' 'reinstall everything'
On 18/04/2025 09:47, wasbit wrote:
On 17/04/2025 18:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:But in addition if figures are to be believed Linux accounts for around
On 17/04/2025 13:51, Andrew wrote:
I
don't like linux, it's really not a plug'n'play solution.
It has been for me for the last ten years or so
Notice how few posters there are here saying 'I cant get my Linux to
work' compared with Windows/Mac users...
Linux users tend to be more technically minded.
4% of "real pc" users compared to 71% for windows so its hardly
surprising there are fewer Linux questions.
Dave
On 18 Apr 2025 at 01:30:10 BST, "The Natural Philosopher" <[email protected]d> wrote:
On 17/04/2025 22:01, Tim Streater wrote:
On 17 Apr 2025 at 18:23:13 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"That's how mine (MATE) works
<[email protected]d> wrote:
On 17/04/2025 13:51, Andrew wrote:
I
don't like linux, it's really not a plug'n'play solution.
It has been for me for the last ten years or so
Notice how few posters there are here saying 'I cant get my Linux to
work' compared with Windows/Mac users...
It's extremely rare that you'll see a Mac-related question here.
1) It mostly works and better than Windows. And I look forward to the time >>> when I can drop an App on the Mint Taskbar and have it trivially create all >>> the stuff needed to have the app as a clickable item there.
Thanks that's useful to know. I'll be sticking with Mint as I have worked out how to do it by hand, and usage of Lin/Win for me is limited to providing a testbed for my email software as I want to be able to support all three desktops to the extent possible.
All though it isn't an 'app' in the nomenclature
2) And why would we post here? We'd post on uk.comp.sys.macWell yes..:-)
I gave up on Macs because it became clear that no mac users actually
knew anything about Macintoshes or OS/X.
Only let's say naive users. But then the same is true for Windows. And why not, at that level.
There was no support beyond 'buy a new one' 'reinstall everything'
Perhaps you might like to lurk there for a while to see what gets discussed. :-)
On 18/04/2025 10:57, David Wade wrote:
On 18/04/2025 09:47, wasbit wrote:Well Linux users don't ask here, but linux questions tend to be far more
On 17/04/2025 18:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:But in addition if figures are to be believed Linux accounts for
On 17/04/2025 13:51, Andrew wrote:
I
don't like linux, it's really not a plug'n'play solution.
It has been for me for the last ten years or so
Notice how few posters there are here saying 'I cant get my Linux to
work' compared with Windows/Mac users...
Linux users tend to be more technically minded.
around 4% of "real pc" users compared to 71% for windows so its hardly
surprising there are fewer Linux questions.
in depth. No one has any problem installing it....or with upgrades
borking it.
Dave
On 4/16/25 12:46, John Rumm wrote:of config. Most of it automated in a batch file. Doing it on a >= 10th gen machine gets it done in less than 5 mins. On a 6th gen i5 it is more like 10, and for a 3rd or 4th gen it is often 15 min. These are all Win 10 or 11 boxes with SSDs.
On 16/04/2025 08:18, Pancho wrote:
On 4/15/25 12:53, John Rumm wrote:
On 14/04/2025 22:34, Pancho wrote:
On 4/14/25 20:30, John Rumm wrote:
On 14/04/2025 18:26, GB wrote:Where do you think this lame performance manifests itself, on a general purpose machine?
On 14/04/2025 17:38, No mail wrote:
Consider whether you *need* a desktop machine. A re-furb laptop (from the likes of Tier1) will come with an in-built UPS ...
The OP asked about a new mb for his desktop, but you can buy a quite capable N100 machine for £100, or so. That will run browsers, email, etc, which probably covers 90% of users.
Them that can put up with pretty lame performance anyway! i5 / Ryzen 5 would be a better starting point for a general purpose machine. The N100 might be alright for a media (consumption) PC.
Comparatively sluggish response and general lacklustre performance. Poor experience with VMs or any CPU intensive task like transcoding/ rendering video.
The thing is, I don't think VMs or rendering video are general usage.
Perhaps not, but IME you will immediately "feel" the difference between a new mid range business spec machine and a new "low end" or ageing mid range desktop system.
For example, I have recently rolling out some software updates to a fleet of machines. The process is not that complicated - quit a couple of running apps, uninstall a couple, download and install a couple, start one of the new ones, and then do a bit
frequently switch between jobs, it is a much bigger impact.
How much that will affect your workflow will depend much on what you do and how you do it. If you load a couple of programs and then live in them all day - the impact of a slower machine is less noticeable. If you need to run multiple things, and
look exciting, but that is the first time in 10 years, I've thought I might want to buy.
This is the nub of my objection. On my toy computer Spreadsheet, Browser, IDE, and MPV Video Player all start in under 5 seconds. Yes I would notice if these apps started in 2 seconds, and I would like it, but it wouldn't really affect my workflow.
The toy computer also has advantages, it uses so little power it can be left on all the time, it is tiny, it is absolutely silent. Having apps start in 2 seconds wouldn't be worth the cost of losing these qualities, or the additional cost.
I don't know for sure, but I suspect my usage patterns are normal for people without specific requirements such as gaming, video editing.
I do look at new PCs and I think eventually they will combine speed with low size/low idle power. I think the Mac Mini, points the way. When such machines exists outside Apple's locked down world, I'll buy one. The new 20 core Intel and AMD CPUs also
I've never believed in future proofing. In the past, when it was a problem, it was normally better to buy cheap, buy often.
On 17/04/2025 13:51, Andrew wrote:
I
don't like linux, it's really not a plug'n'play solution.
It has been for me for the last ten years or so
Notice how few posters there are here saying 'I cant get my Linux to
work' compared with Windows/Mac users...
On 14/04/2025 11:48, Theo wrote:
John Rumm <[email protected]> wrote:
On 14/04/2025 00:41, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on
'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent &
decent.
Once you go down this road, you might find you can pick up a whole
mini PC
for £200-300 which is the price of a mobo/CPU/RAM combo. Even less if
you're prepared to consider a used ex-office mini PC.
I have thought about one of the many Dell Optiflex machines which seem
to dominate the second hand market, but I suspect I would end up
replacing that fairly quickly - and I do dislike all the hassle involved
in transferring my applications & data onto a new(er) setup.
Win10 is quite good at adapting to new hardware. So you would probably
find if you made a clone[1] of your existing disk and showed it into
your "new" machine, it would book ok and then sort out finding the right drivers etc. If the new machine already had Win 10 on it, it would
reactivate with a digital license as well.
On Sat, 19 Apr 2025 02:37:42 +0100, John Rumm wrote:
Win10 is quite good at adapting to new hardware. So you would probably
find if you made a clone[1] of your existing disk and showed it into
your "new" machine, it would book ok and then sort out finding the right >>drivers etc. If the new machine already had Win 10 on it, it would >>reactivate with a digital license as well.
Except, as I discovered this week...
The old machine didn't support UEFI. I installed Win10 about two years
ago.
Updated the motherboard this week, and it refused to boot from the disk. >Turns out that Win10 didn't bother to install a UEFI partition.
On 19/04/2025 in message <[email protected]> Bob Eager
wrote:
On Sat, 19 Apr 2025 02:37:42 +0100, John Rumm wrote:
Win10 is quite good at adapting to new hardware. So you would probably >>>find if you made a clone[1] of your existing disk and showed it into
your "new" machine, it would book ok and then sort out finding the
right drivers etc. If the new machine already had Win 10 on it, it
would reactivate with a digital license as well.
Except, as I discovered this week...
The old machine didn't support UEFI. I installed Win10 about two years
ago.
Updated the motherboard this week, and it refused to boot from the disk. >>Turns out that Win10 didn't bother to install a UEFI partition.
Installing Win 10 to legacy BIOS/MBR is what I do to stop Win 11 being installed as an "update". You may need to set the BIOS to match your installation, it probably defaults to UEFI/Secure Boot.
On Sat, 19 Apr 2025 10:07:56 +0000, Jeff Gaines wrote:
On 19/04/2025 in message <[email protected]> Bob Eager
wrote:
On Sat, 19 Apr 2025 02:37:42 +0100, John Rumm wrote:
Win10 is quite good at adapting to new hardware. So you would probably >>>> find if you made a clone[1] of your existing disk and showed it into
your "new" machine, it would book ok and then sort out finding the
right drivers etc. If the new machine already had Win 10 on it, it
would reactivate with a digital license as well.
Except, as I discovered this week...
The old machine didn't support UEFI. I installed Win10 about two years
ago.
Updated the motherboard this week, and it refused to boot from the disk. >>> Turns out that Win10 didn't bother to install a UEFI partition.
Installing Win 10 to legacy BIOS/MBR is what I do to stop Win 11 being
installed as an "update". You may need to set the BIOS to match your
installation, it probably defaults to UEFI/Secure Boot.
The BIOS kept switching it back. In any case, Win 11 insists on UEFI, and
I'm upgrading to that soon anyway.
So I'm just installing Win 11 a bit earlier.
On Sat, 4/19/2025 6:49 AM, Bob Eager wrote:
On Sat, 19 Apr 2025 10:07:56 +0000, Jeff Gaines wrote:
On 19/04/2025 in message <[email protected]> Bob Eager
wrote:
On Sat, 19 Apr 2025 02:37:42 +0100, John Rumm wrote:
Win10 is quite good at adapting to new hardware. So you would
probably find if you made a clone[1] of your existing disk and
showed it into your "new" machine, it would book ok and then sort
out finding the right drivers etc. If the new machine already had
Win 10 on it, it would reactivate with a digital license as well.
Except, as I discovered this week...
The old machine didn't support UEFI. I installed Win10 about two
years ago.
Updated the motherboard this week, and it refused to boot from the
disk.
Turns out that Win10 didn't bother to install a UEFI partition.
Installing Win 10 to legacy BIOS/MBR is what I do to stop Win 11 being
installed as an "update". You may need to set the BIOS to match your
installation, it probably defaults to UEFI/Secure Boot.
The BIOS kept switching it back. In any case, Win 11 insists on UEFI,
and I'm upgrading to that soon anyway.
So I'm just installing Win 11 a bit earlier.
The only route I can think of, is go back to the old machine, clone the
disk, use the MBR2GPT.exe executable and convert the cloned disk to
GPT...
On 15/04/2025 22:11, No mail wrote:
Be grateful that you never had to develop an interface for daisy wheel
printers - timing the hammer fire and wheel rotation was a nightmare.
ESD wasn't completely understood and a discharge during printing often
resulted in showers of "petals" - but the print quality was great. Swing
the lamp!
My first printer was a Smith Corona daisywheel (I've still got it somewhere!). For reasons long forgotten I decided that I didn't want the
font that usually came with it, so I bought "Tempo". I really liked it,
and, as you note, the print quality of a daisywheel was superb.
Not many applications as this is my workshop machine. Applications for the oscilloscope, multimeter, function generator, and PSU
Bob Eager wrote:
Not many applications as this is my workshop machine. Applications for
the oscilloscope, multimeter, function generator, and PSU
Bob, I'd be interested in hearing more about these Apps (with apols. for thread creep)
Bob Eager wrote:
Not many applications as this is my workshop machine. Applications for
the
oscilloscope, multimeter, function generator, and PSU
Bob, I'd be interested in hearing more about these Apps (with apols. for thread creep)
On 20/04/2025 11:05, No mail wrote:
Bob Eager wrote:
Not many applications as this is my workshop machine. Applications
for the
oscilloscope, multimeter, function generator, and PSU
Bob, I'd be interested in hearing more about these Apps (with apols.
for thread creep)
Apologies?!? Surely thread creep is the very lifeblood of this newsgroup.
On 20/04/2025 11:05, No mail wrote:
Bob Eager wrote:
Not many applications as this is my workshop machine. Applications for the >>> oscilloscope, multimeter, function generator, and PSU
Bob, I'd be interested in hearing more about these Apps (with apols. for thread creep)
Apologies?!? Surely thread creep is the very lifeblood of this newsgroup.
Probable also a DVD writer for old time's sake.
On Mon, 14 Apr 2025 00:41:06 +0100, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on >>'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent &
decent.
Having thought about it some more, I realise most of my PC dates from
2016 so regardless of Microsoft's messing around, it is time for a
refresh.
I'm happy with the peripherals I have, so it's just the >>Motherboard/CPU/RAM/CPU Cooler that I want to replace. To make life >>easier, I want to buy a ready built & tested bundle.
Last time around,I bought such a bundle from Novatech, and I was very
happy with the result. I might still buy from them, but their bundles
get very expensive very quickly (e.g. a modest bundle is ~£300, the next >>is £740 and sharply up from there).
Question: Can anyone recommend other firms which offer such (built & >>tested) bundles, and are they good if/when things need attention?
(I can recommend Novatech since they replaced my first bundle without a >>quibble when it suddenly died after a year of use.)
Question 2: My current system is Intel-based. Is there any advantage
to going for a Ryzen-based system at the moment?
I am not into the latest & greatest in gaming, so I have no interest in >>overclocking the thing into meltdown.
I too am looking for a motherboard bundle.
I have laptops, but I want to be able to use a tower case to host a number
of HDD.
Probable also a DVD writer for old time's sake.
So I need a new MoBo or a recent business machine with a proper tower case >with some real estate.
I haven't finished going through every posting in the thread, but
(although entertaining in parts) the thread drift is killing my will to
live.
So - Mobo or decent tower case with plenty of disc slots and option card >slots, anyone?
M.2 NVMe slot would be a bonus.
My last bundle from OverClockers cost me around £200 but that was a while >back. [See signature.]
Cheers
Dave R
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on
'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent &
decent.
Having thought about it some more, I realise most of my PC dates from
2016 so regardless of Microsoft's messing around, it is time for a
refresh.
I'm happy with the peripherals I have, so it's just the Motherboard/CPU/RAM/CPU Cooler that I want to replace. To make life
easier, I want to buy a ready built & tested bundle.
Last time around,I bought such a bundle from Novatech, and I was very
happy with the result. I might still buy from them, but their bundles
get very expensive very quickly (e.g. a modest bundle is ~£300, the next
is £740 and sharply up from there).
Question: Can anyone recommend other firms which offer such (built &
tested) bundles, and are they good if/when things need attention?
(I can recommend Novatech since they replaced my first bundle without a quibble when it suddenly died after a year of use.)
Question 2: My current system is Intel-based. Is there any advantage
to going for a Ryzen-based system at the moment?
I am not into the latest & greatest in gaming, so I have no interest in overclocking the thing into meltdown.
On Mon, 14 Apr 2025 00:41:06 +0100, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on
'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent &
decent.
Having thought about it some more, I realise most of my PC dates from
2016 so regardless of Microsoft's messing around, it is time for a
refresh.
I'm happy with the peripherals I have, so it's just the
Motherboard/CPU/RAM/CPU Cooler that I want to replace. To make life
easier, I want to buy a ready built & tested bundle.
Last time around,I bought such a bundle from Novatech, and I was very
happy with the result. I might still buy from them, but their bundles
get very expensive very quickly (e.g. a modest bundle is ~£300, the next
is £740 and sharply up from there).
Question: Can anyone recommend other firms which offer such (built &
tested) bundles, and are they good if/when things need attention?
(I can recommend Novatech since they replaced my first bundle without a
quibble when it suddenly died after a year of use.)
Question 2: My current system is Intel-based. Is there any advantage
to going for a Ryzen-based system at the moment?
I am not into the latest & greatest in gaming, so I have no interest in
overclocking the thing into meltdown.
I too am looking for a motherboard bundle.
I have laptops, but I want to be able to use a tower case to host a number
of HDD.
Probable also a DVD writer for old time's sake.
So I need a new MoBo or a recent business machine with a proper tower case with some real estate.
I haven't finished going through every posting in the thread, but
(although entertaining in parts) the thread drift is killing my will to
live.
So - Mobo or decent tower case with plenty of disc slots and option card slots, anyone?
M.2 NVMe slot would be a bonus.
My last bundle from OverClockers cost me around £200 but that was a while back. [See signature.]
Cheers
Dave R
On 28 Apr 2025 at 15:18:22 BST, "David" <[email protected]> wrote:
Probable also a DVD writer for old time's sake.
I spent £10 on an Amazon Basics USB DVD writer, some 15 years ago, it seems to
have sat in a box for most of the time since then.
On 28/04/2025 15:34, Tim Streater wrote:
On 28 Apr 2025 at 15:18:22 BST, "David" <[email protected]> wrote:When I build a machine, I always fit two DVD burners......
Probable also a DVD writer for old time's sake.
I spent £10 on an Amazon Basics USB DVD writer, some 15 years ago, it seems to
have sat in a box for most of the time since then.
my current machine is now 5 years old and I can count the number of
times on one hand where I have inserted a DVD into said burners......
On 28 Apr 2025 at 19:13:24 BST, "SH" <[email protected]> wrote:
On 28/04/2025 15:34, Tim Streater wrote:
On 28 Apr 2025 at 15:18:22 BST, "David" <[email protected]> wrote:When I build a machine, I always fit two DVD burners......
Probable also a DVD writer for old time's sake.
I spent £10 on an Amazon Basics USB DVD writer, some 15 years ago, it seems to
have sat in a box for most of the time since then.
my current machine is now 5 years old and I can count the number of
times on one hand where I have inserted a DVD into said burners......
This is why I can't understand why anyone would buy a tower these days. Any Mac Mini has ample ports and is small and quiet. And takes next to no space on
the desk.
On 28 Apr 2025 at 21:50:09, Tim Streater <[email protected]> wrote:
On 28 Apr 2025 at 19:13:24 BST, "SH" <[email protected]> wrote:
This is why I can't understand why anyone would buy a tower these days. Any >> Mac Mini has ample ports and is small and quiet. And takes next to no space on
the desk.
I replaced my 3 towers with 3 refurbished Lenovo M93p at about £70 each,
Quiet, small, fast enough and with more than enough USB ports.
When I build a machine, I always fit two DVD burners......
my current machine is now 5 years old and I can count the number of
times on one hand where I have inserted a DVD into said burners......
This is why I can't understand why anyone would buy a tower these days. Any >Mac Mini has ample ports and is small and quiet. And takes next to no
space on
the desk.
On 28/04/2025 15:18, David wrote:
On Mon, 14 Apr 2025 00:41:06 +0100, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on
'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent &
decent.
Having thought about it some more, I realise most of my PC dates from
2016 so regardless of Microsoft's messing around, it is time for a
refresh.
I'm happy with the peripherals I have, so it's just the
Motherboard/CPU/RAM/CPU Cooler that I want to replace. To make life
easier, I want to buy a ready built & tested bundle.
Last time around,I bought such a bundle from Novatech, and I was very
happy with the result. I might still buy from them, but their bundles
get very expensive very quickly (e.g. a modest bundle is ~£300, the next >>> is £740 and sharply up from there).
Question: Can anyone recommend other firms which offer such (built &
tested) bundles, and are they good if/when things need attention?
(I can recommend Novatech since they replaced my first bundle without a
quibble when it suddenly died after a year of use.)
Question 2: My current system is Intel-based. Is there any advantage >>> to going for a Ryzen-based system at the moment?
I am not into the latest & greatest in gaming, so I have no interest in
overclocking the thing into meltdown.
I too am looking for a motherboard bundle.
I have laptops, but I want to be able to use a tower case to host a
number
of HDD.
Probable also a DVD writer for old time's sake.
So I need a new MoBo or a recent business machine with a proper tower
case
with some real estate.
I haven't finished going through every posting in the thread, but
(although entertaining in parts) the thread drift is killing my will to
live.
So - Mobo or decent tower case with plenty of disc slots and option card
slots, anyone?
M.2 NVMe slot would be a bonus.
My last bundle from OverClockers cost me around £200 but that was a while >> back. [See signature.]
Cheers
Dave R
Would you be interested in buying a 2nd hand White Tower case or a Black tower case?
Location is Northampton.
This is literally just the case, will take a minimum of 6 x 5.25 drives,
min of 3 x 3.5 inch drives
SO you'd need to supply everything else including the PSU!
It won't look brand new but at least any would be thieves will think its
a low spect older machine and ignore it!
On 28/04/2025 15:34, Tim Streater wrote:
On 28 Apr 2025 at 15:18:22 BST, "David" <[email protected]> wrote:When I build a machine, I always fit two DVD burners......
Probable also a DVD writer for old time's sake.
I spent £10 on an Amazon Basics USB DVD writer, some 15 years ago, it
seems to
have sat in a box for most of the time since then.
my current machine is now 5 years old and I can count the number of
times on one hand where I have inserted a DVD into said burners......
On 28 Apr 2025 at 19:13:24 BST, "SH" <[email protected]> wrote:
On 28/04/2025 15:34, Tim Streater wrote:
On 28 Apr 2025 at 15:18:22 BST, "David" <[email protected]> wrote:When I build a machine, I always fit two DVD burners......
Probable also a DVD writer for old time's sake.
I spent £10 on an Amazon Basics USB DVD writer, some 15 years ago, it seems to
have sat in a box for most of the time since then.
my current machine is now 5 years old and I can count the number of
times on one hand where I have inserted a DVD into said burners......
This is why I can't understand why anyone would buy a tower these days. Any Mac Mini has ample ports and is small and quiet. And takes next to no space on
the desk.
On Mon, 14 Apr 2025 00:41:06 +0100, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on
'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent &
decent.
Having thought about it some more, I realise most of my PC dates from
2016 so regardless of Microsoft's messing around, it is time for a
refresh.
I'm happy with the peripherals I have, so it's just the
Motherboard/CPU/RAM/CPU Cooler that I want to replace. To make life
easier, I want to buy a ready built & tested bundle.
Last time around,I bought such a bundle from Novatech, and I was very
happy with the result. I might still buy from them, but their bundles
get very expensive very quickly (e.g. a modest bundle is ~£300, the next
is £740 and sharply up from there).
Question: Can anyone recommend other firms which offer such (built &
tested) bundles, and are they good if/when things need attention?
(I can recommend Novatech since they replaced my first bundle without a
quibble when it suddenly died after a year of use.)
Question 2: My current system is Intel-based. Is there any advantage
to going for a Ryzen-based system at the moment?
I am not into the latest & greatest in gaming, so I have no interest in
overclocking the thing into meltdown.
I too am looking for a motherboard bundle.
I have laptops, but I want to be able to use a tower case to host a number
of HDD.
Probable also a DVD writer for old time's sake.
So I need a new MoBo or a recent business machine with a proper tower case with some real estate.
On 28/04/2025 15:18, David wrote:
On Mon, 14 Apr 2025 00:41:06 +0100, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on
'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent &
decent.
Having thought about it some more, I realise most of my PC dates from
2016 so regardless of Microsoft's messing around, it is time for a
refresh.
I'm happy with the peripherals I have, so it's just the
Motherboard/CPU/RAM/CPU Cooler that I want to replace. To make life
easier, I want to buy a ready built & tested bundle.
Last time around,I bought such a bundle from Novatech, and I was very
happy with the result. I might still buy from them, but their bundles
get very expensive very quickly (e.g. a modest bundle is ~£300, the
next is £740 and sharply up from there).
Question: Can anyone recommend other firms which offer such (built &
tested) bundles, and are they good if/when things need attention?
(I can recommend Novatech since they replaced my first bundle without
a quibble when it suddenly died after a year of use.)
Question 2: My current system is Intel-based. Is there any advantage
to going for a Ryzen-based system at the moment?
I am not into the latest & greatest in gaming, so I have no interest
in overclocking the thing into meltdown.
I too am looking for a motherboard bundle.
I have laptops, but I want to be able to use a tower case to host a
number of HDD.
Probable also a DVD writer for old time's sake.
So I need a new MoBo or a recent business machine with a proper tower
case with some real estate.
I haven't finished going through every posting in the thread, but
(although entertaining in parts) the thread drift is killing my will to
live.
So - Mobo or decent tower case with plenty of disc slots and option
card slots, anyone?
M.2 NVMe slot would be a bonus.
My last bundle from OverClockers cost me around £200 but that was a
while back. [See signature.]
Would you be interested in buying a 2nd hand White Tower case or a Black tower case?
Location is Northampton.
This is literally just the case, will take a minimum of 6 x 5.25 drives,
min of 3 x 3.5 inch drives
SO you'd need to supply everything else including the PSU!
It won't look brand new but at least any would be thieves will think its
a low spect older machine and ignore it!
On 28/04/2025 15:18, David wrote:
On Mon, 14 Apr 2025 00:41:06 +0100, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on
'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent &
decent.
Having thought about it some more, I realise most of my PC dates from
2016 so regardless of Microsoft's messing around, it is time for a
refresh.
I'm happy with the peripherals I have, so it's just the
Motherboard/CPU/RAM/CPU Cooler that I want to replace. To make life
easier, I want to buy a ready built & tested bundle.
Last time around,I bought such a bundle from Novatech, and I was very
happy with the result. I might still buy from them, but their bundles
get very expensive very quickly (e.g. a modest bundle is ~£300, the
next is £740 and sharply up from there).
Question: Can anyone recommend other firms which offer such (built &
tested) bundles, and are they good if/when things need attention?
(I can recommend Novatech since they replaced my first bundle without
a quibble when it suddenly died after a year of use.)
Question 2: My current system is Intel-based. Is there any advantage
to going for a Ryzen-based system at the moment?
I am not into the latest & greatest in gaming, so I have no interest
in overclocking the thing into meltdown.
I too am looking for a motherboard bundle.
I have laptops, but I want to be able to use a tower case to host a
number of HDD.
Probable also a DVD writer for old time's sake.
So I need a new MoBo or a recent business machine with a proper tower
case with some real estate.
I haven't finished going through every posting in the thread, but
(although entertaining in parts) the thread drift is killing my will to
live.
So - Mobo or decent tower case with plenty of disc slots and option
card slots, anyone?
M.2 NVMe slot would be a bonus.
My last bundle from OverClockers cost me around £200 but that was a
while back. [See signature.]
Would you be interested in buying a 2nd hand White Tower case or a Black tower case?
Location is Northampton.
This is literally just the case, will take a minimum of 6 x 5.25 drives,
min of 3 x 3.5 inch drives
SO you'd need to supply everything else including the PSU!
It won't look brand new but at least any would be thieves will think its
a low spect older machine and ignore it!
I am suffering from intermittent halts where the PC just powers off.
I suspected the PSU but this is still happening with a brand new PSU
fitted.
So I need at a minimum a new MoBo to go into the existing case.
I am open to suggestions for a used full W11 compatible tower system if
this is significantly cheaper than a new MoBo.
On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 19:12:20 +0100, SH wrote:
On 28/04/2025 15:18, David wrote:
On Mon, 14 Apr 2025 00:41:06 +0100, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on
'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent &
decent.
Having thought about it some more, I realise most of my PC dates from
2016 so regardless of Microsoft's messing around, it is time for a
refresh.
I'm happy with the peripherals I have, so it's just the
Motherboard/CPU/RAM/CPU Cooler that I want to replace. To make life
easier, I want to buy a ready built & tested bundle.
Last time around,I bought such a bundle from Novatech, and I was very
happy with the result. I might still buy from them, but their bundles >>>> get very expensive very quickly (e.g. a modest bundle is ~£300, the
next is £740 and sharply up from there).
Question: Can anyone recommend other firms which offer such (built &
tested) bundles, and are they good if/when things need attention?
(I can recommend Novatech since they replaced my first bundle without
a quibble when it suddenly died after a year of use.)
Question 2: My current system is Intel-based. Is there any advantage >>>> to going for a Ryzen-based system at the moment?
I am not into the latest & greatest in gaming, so I have no interest
in overclocking the thing into meltdown.
I too am looking for a motherboard bundle.
I have laptops, but I want to be able to use a tower case to host a
number of HDD.
Probable also a DVD writer for old time's sake.
So I need a new MoBo or a recent business machine with a proper tower
case with some real estate.
I haven't finished going through every posting in the thread, but
(although entertaining in parts) the thread drift is killing my will to
live.
So - Mobo or decent tower case with plenty of disc slots and option
card slots, anyone?
M.2 NVMe slot would be a bonus.
My last bundle from OverClockers cost me around £200 but that was a
while back. [See signature.]
Would you be interested in buying a 2nd hand White Tower case or a Black
tower case?
Location is Northampton.
This is literally just the case, will take a minimum of 6 x 5.25 drives,
min of 3 x 3.5 inch drives
SO you'd need to supply everything else including the PSU!
It won't look brand new but at least any would be thieves will think its
a low spect older machine and ignore it!
I was just replying to this when the machine died on me again.
I already have a tower case and a brand new PSU.
I replaced the PSU in case that was the cause of the problems.
Next step is to replace the MoBo.
I do need some space for spinning rust.
Cheers
Dave R
On 28/04/2025 15:34, Tim Streater wrote:
On 28 Apr 2025 at 15:18:22 BST, "David" <[email protected]> wrote:When I build a machine, I always fit two DVD burners......
Probable also a DVD writer for old time's sake.
I spent £10 on an Amazon Basics USB DVD writer, some 15 years ago, it seems to
have sat in a box for most of the time since then.
my current machine is now 5 years old and I can count the number of times on one hand where I have inserted a DVD into said burners......
On 29 Apr 2025 at 05:53:52 BST, Bob Martin wrote:
On 28 Apr 2025 at 21:50:09, Tim Streater <[email protected]> wrote:
On 28 Apr 2025 at 19:13:24 BST, "SH" <[email protected]> wrote:
This is why I can't understand why anyone would buy a tower these days. Any >>> Mac Mini has ample ports and is small and quiet. And takes next to no space on
the desk.
I replaced my 3 towers with 3 refurbished Lenovo M93p at about £70 each,
Quiet, small, fast enough and with more than enough USB ports.
Are you sure about the 'quiet'? I borrowed one recently and it had a quite noticeable fan on most of the time.
Otherwise impressed - built like a tank and ran W11 nicely.
On 29 Apr 2025 at 05:59:17, RJH <[email protected]> wrote:
On 29 Apr 2025 at 05:53:52 BST, Bob Martin wrote:
On 28 Apr 2025 at 21:50:09, Tim Streater <[email protected]> wrote:
On 28 Apr 2025 at 19:13:24 BST, "SH" <[email protected]> wrote:
This is why I can't understand why anyone would buy a tower these days. Any
Mac Mini has ample ports and is small and quiet. And takes next to no space on
the desk.
I replaced my 3 towers with 3 refurbished Lenovo M93p at about £70 each, >>>
Quiet, small, fast enough and with more than enough USB ports.
Are you sure about the 'quiet'? I borrowed one recently and it had a quite >> noticeable fan on most of the time.
Yes, all 3 are absolutely silent.
I was just replying to this when the machine died on me again.
On 28/04/2025 22:50, Tim Streater wrote:
On 28 Apr 2025 at 19:13:24 BST, "SH" <[email protected]> wrote:Towers have capacity for a lot of spinning rust and/or massive video
On 28/04/2025 15:34, Tim Streater wrote:
On 28 Apr 2025 at 15:18:22 BST, "David" <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>When I build a machine, I always fit two DVD burners......
Probable also a DVD writer for old time's sake.
I spent £10 on an Amazon Basics USB DVD writer, some 15 years ago,
it seems to
have sat in a box for most of the time since then.
my current machine is now 5 years old and I can count the number of
times on one hand where I have inserted a DVD into said burners......
This is why I can't understand why anyone would buy a tower these
days. Any
Mac Mini has ample ports and is small and quiet. And takes next to no
space on
the desk.
cards.
If you need either, you get a tower.
Towers have capacity for a lot of spinning rust and/or massive video
cards.
If you need either, you get a tower.
Also if you want space for lots of *quiet* cooling...
Plus fixing and upgrading machines with standard off the shelf parts and mobo's is much easier.
On 29/04/2025 17:00, David wrote:
I was just replying to this when the machine died on me again.
One very obscure cause of this can be a faulty power button switch...
Try turning it on, then disconnecting the wire to the mobo from the
front panel switch. See if it stays on then.
On Wed, 30 Apr 2025 18:17:01 +0100, John Rumm wrote:
Towers have capacity for a lot of spinning rust and/or massive video
cards.
If you need either, you get a tower.
Also if you want space for lots of *quiet* cooling...
Plus fixing and upgrading machines with standard off the shelf parts
and mobo's is much easier.
Indeed. I built six tower machines in 2012, and made them as future
proof as possible. The only changes over the years have been a beefier graphics card in one, and more memory in two. Plus disk upgrades.
I have finally replced the motherboard in one, and parts arriving
tomorrow for another two. They run Windows 10 so you can see where this
is going.
They are all decent size Corsair towers.
On 30/04/2025 18:21, John Rumm wrote:
On 29/04/2025 17:00, David wrote:
I was just replying to this when the machine died on me again.
One very obscure cause of this can be a faulty power button switch...
Try turning it on, then disconnecting the wire to the mobo from the
front panel switch. See if it stays on then.
When the PSU fires up, the mobo sends back a signal to say all is well.
IIRC it pulls a line in one of the power leads low.
If that line goes high the PSU will shut off.
That happened to me some time back and it was a sod of a job finding out
if it was a PSU, a mobo, or a cable/connector problem.
On 30/04/2025 18:21, John Rumm wrote:
On 29/04/2025 17:00, David wrote:
I was just replying to this when the machine died on me again.
One very obscure cause of this can be a faulty power button switch...
Try turning it on, then disconnecting the wire to the mobo from the
front panel switch. See if it stays on then.
When the PSU fires up, the mobo sends back a signal to say all is well.
IIRC it pulls a line in one of the power leads low.
If that line goes high the PSU will shut off.
That happened to me some time back and it was a sod of a job finding out
if it was a PSU, a mobo, or a cable/connector problem.
Sam Plusnet <[email protected]> wrote:
On 30/04/2025 18:21, John Rumm wrote:
On 29/04/2025 17:00, David wrote:
I was just replying to this when the machine died on me again.
One very obscure cause of this can be a faulty power button switch...
Try turning it on, then disconnecting the wire to the mobo from the
front panel switch. See if it stays on then.
When the PSU fires up, the mobo sends back a signal to say all is well.
IIRC it pulls a line in one of the power leads low.
If that line goes high the PSU will shut off.
That happened to me some time back and it was a sod of a job finding
out if it was a PSU, a mobo, or a cable/connector problem.
T'other way round. Mobo pulls PS_ON low to say it wants power. PSU
starts up. When things are stable PSU sends back PWR_GOOD. Then the
mobo can fire everything up. If the mobo doesn't see PWR_GOOD it won't
try and start up. Possibly the mobo then drops PS_ON so the PSU turns
off.
(there's always power from 5V_STANDBY to run this logic, but only at a
low current)
Thep
On Thu, 01 May 2025 11:04:38 +0100, Theo wrote:
Sam Plusnet <[email protected]> wrote:
On 30/04/2025 18:21, John Rumm wrote:
On 29/04/2025 17:00, David wrote:
I was just replying to this when the machine died on me again.
One very obscure cause of this can be a faulty power button
switch...
Try turning it on, then disconnecting the wire to the mobo from the
front panel switch. See if it stays on then.
When the PSU fires up, the mobo sends back a signal to say all is
well.
IIRC it pulls a line in one of the power leads low.
If that line goes high the PSU will shut off.
That happened to me some time back and it was a sod of a job finding
out if it was a PSU, a mobo, or a cable/connector problem.
T'other way round. Mobo pulls PS_ON low to say it wants power. PSU
starts up. When things are stable PSU sends back PWR_GOOD. Then the
mobo can fire everything up. If the mobo doesn't see PWR_GOOD it won't
try and start up. Possibly the mobo then drops PS_ON so the PSU turns
off.
(there's always power from 5V_STANDBY to run this logic, but only at a
low current)
Thep
So if the MoBo for some reason is dropping PS_ON this would match the symptoms.
However why would the MoBo do this?
Unless it thinks the power switch has been turned off.
So if the MoBo for some reason is dropping PS_ON this would match the symptoms.
However why would the MoBo do this?
Unless it thinks the power switch has been turned off.
On Wed, 30 Apr 2025 18:17:01 +0100, John Rumm wrote:
Towers have capacity for a lot of spinning rust and/or massive video >>>> cards.
If you need either, you get a tower.
Also if you want space for lots of *quiet* cooling...
Plus fixing and upgrading machines with standard off the shelf parts
and mobo's is much easier.
Indeed. I built six tower machines in 2012, and made them as future
proof as possible. The only changes over the years have been a beefier
graphics card in one, and more memory in two. Plus disk upgrades.
I have finally replced the motherboard in one, and parts arriving
tomorrow for another two. They run Windows 10 so you can see where this
is going.
They are all decent size Corsair towers.
Which MoBos did you choose, and which supplier?
David <[email protected]> wrote:
So if the MoBo for some reason is dropping PS_ON this would match the
symptoms.
However why would the MoBo do this?
Unless it thinks the power switch has been turned off.
As John says, a stuck power button can do this. You press in the
button, PC turns on. The button doesn't release so after 10/30/whatever seconds it sees that as the 'PC unresponsive; hard power off' signal and turns off again. Possibly the plastic button releases but the actual
switch behind is gummed up and stays pushed in. If you keep the switch closed for longer it might do more power up/down cycles.
A variation of same is using an ATX PSU in an AT case. On AT the power switch is a rocker so it has defined on/off states. If you wire that to
an ATX PSU and flip the rocker to the 'on' state it'll behave as above.
For ATX rack cases which have a rocker power switch for the industrial aesthetic[1], the rocker is a momentary switch and won't latch in the
'on' position.
Theo
[1] more likely they didn't bother to update the tooling since 1988
Sam Plusnet <[email protected]> wrote:
On 30/04/2025 18:21, John Rumm wrote:
On 29/04/2025 17:00, David wrote:
I was just replying to this when the machine died on me again.
One very obscure cause of this can be a faulty power button switch...
Try turning it on, then disconnecting the wire to the mobo from the
front panel switch. See if it stays on then.
When the PSU fires up, the mobo sends back a signal to say all is well.
IIRC it pulls a line in one of the power leads low.
If that line goes high the PSU will shut off.
That happened to me some time back and it was a sod of a job finding out
if it was a PSU, a mobo, or a cable/connector problem.
T'other way round. Mobo pulls PS_ON low to say it wants power. PSU starts up. When things are stable PSU sends back PWR_GOOD. Then the mobo can fire everything up. If the mobo doesn't see PWR_GOOD it won't try and start up. Possibly the mobo then drops PS_ON so the PSU turns off.
(there's always power from 5V_STANDBY to run this logic, but only at a low current)
From Scan
8 x disk bays with backplane, rare beasts!
Jeff Gaines <[email protected]> wrote:
From Scan
8 x disk bays with backplane, rare beasts!
Not if you have a 3D printer :-)
https://www.printables.com/model/1278847-12-bay-atx-nas-case >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7FyS37KHms
(although no backplane, it's designed for SATA->SFF8086 cable
harnesses)
Theo
I haven't tried 3D printing. I did find the software for feet on my
Corsair cases and sent it off to a printer who produced the feet.
Perfect fit but the plastic was too brittle and they snapped on insertion.
Theo wrote:
Jeff Gaines wrote:I assumed that was going to be the one that had popped-up on my youtube >suggestions yesterday, but it's a different one, link is to the completed >NAS, rewind to see the build if interested ...
8 x disk bays with backplane, rare beasts!
Not if you have a 3D printer :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7FyS37KHms
<https://youtu.be/NXIu-B52WPU?t=880>
Jeff Gaines wrote:I assumed that was going to be the one that had popped-up on my youtube suggestions yesterday, but it's a different one, link is to the
8 x disk bays with backplane, rare beasts!
Not if you have a 3D printer :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7FyS37KHms
Theo wrote:
Jeff Gaines wrote:
8 x disk bays with backplane, rare beasts!
Not if you have a 3D printer :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7FyS37KHmsI assumed that was going to be the one that had popped-up on my youtube suggestions yesterday, but it's a different one, link is to the
completed NAS, rewind to see the build if interested ...
<https://youtu.be/NXIu-B52WPU?t=880>
So if the MoBo for some reason is dropping PS_ON this would match the symptoms.
However why would the MoBo do this?
Unless it thinks the power switch has been turned off.
Andy Burns <[email protected]> wrote:I got a Creality K1 with camera - buying them separately was cheaper -
Theo wrote:
Jeff Gaines wrote:I assumed that was going to be the one that had popped-up on my youtube
8 x disk bays with backplane, rare beasts!
Not if you have a 3D printer :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7FyS37KHms
suggestions yesterday, but it's a different one, link is to the
completed NAS, rewind to see the build if interested ...
<https://youtu.be/NXIu-B52WPU?t=880>
That was a suggested video from the 12 bay one. Physical design looks nice, but I'm not a great fan of the 'Zimaboard' - too many compromises. And his choice of PSU is awful - sketchy Chinese junk, as he found out. And it
needs a custom PCB. And I'm a bit dubious about his choice of SATA controller (no details in the video but I suspect it's a consumer grade controller).
But maybe there's enough space underneath to fit a RPi + SATA HAT or a mini ITX.
PS if you don't have a 3D printer the hot new thing is the Elegoo Centauri Carbon at $299 - two NAS cases and it's paid for itself.
(well, minus electricity, filament, screws, magnets etc)
Theo
if you don't have a 3D printer the hot new thing > is the Elegoo Centauri Carbon at $299
On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 19:12:20 +0100, SH wrote:
On 28/04/2025 15:18, David wrote:
On Mon, 14 Apr 2025 00:41:06 +0100, Sam Plusnet wrote:
I was bliddy annoyed when MS decided that Windows 11 would not run on
'older' systems, since I considered my main PC was fairly recent &
decent.
Having thought about it some more, I realise most of my PC dates from
2016 so regardless of Microsoft's messing around, it is time for a
refresh.
I'm happy with the peripherals I have, so it's just the
Motherboard/CPU/RAM/CPU Cooler that I want to replace. To make life
easier, I want to buy a ready built & tested bundle.
Last time around,I bought such a bundle from Novatech, and I was very
happy with the result. I might still buy from them, but their bundles >>>> get very expensive very quickly (e.g. a modest bundle is ~£300, the
next is £740 and sharply up from there).
Question: Can anyone recommend other firms which offer such (built &
tested) bundles, and are they good if/when things need attention?
(I can recommend Novatech since they replaced my first bundle without
a quibble when it suddenly died after a year of use.)
Question 2: My current system is Intel-based. Is there any advantage >>>> to going for a Ryzen-based system at the moment?
I am not into the latest & greatest in gaming, so I have no interest
in overclocking the thing into meltdown.
I too am looking for a motherboard bundle.
I have laptops, but I want to be able to use a tower case to host a
number of HDD.
Probable also a DVD writer for old time's sake.
So I need a new MoBo or a recent business machine with a proper tower
case with some real estate.
I haven't finished going through every posting in the thread, but
(although entertaining in parts) the thread drift is killing my will to
live.
So - Mobo or decent tower case with plenty of disc slots and option
card slots, anyone?
M.2 NVMe slot would be a bonus.
My last bundle from OverClockers cost me around £200 but that was a
while back. [See signature.]
Would you be interested in buying a 2nd hand White Tower case or a Black
tower case?
Location is Northampton.
This is literally just the case, will take a minimum of 6 x 5.25 drives,
min of 3 x 3.5 inch drives
SO you'd need to supply everything else including the PSU!
It won't look brand new but at least any would be thieves will think its
a low spect older machine and ignore it!
I already have a tower case, with a brand new PSU and plenty of capacity
for HDDs.
Various other components as well including a graphics card.
I am suffering from intermittent halts where the PC just powers off.
I suspected the PSU but this is still happening with a brand new PSU
fitted.
So I need at a minimum a new MoBo to go into the existing case.
I am open to suggestions for a used full W11 compatible tower system if
this is significantly cheaper than a new MoBo.
I also have other cases waiting fettling.
Cheers
Dave R
I was thinking of getting a Ryzen 5 3400G CPU, plus a £50-60 motherboard (probably A520 or B450), as I don't need too much computing power.
Ebuyer do an incredibly cheap B450 mobo for £30. https://www.ebuyer.com/2277295-biostar-amd-b450-am4-ddr4-micro-atx-gaming-motherboard-b450mhp
And, they'll sell you a 3400G for £60. Total cost £90.
I have had this conversation with quite a few customers recently, and
have had to point out that yup it is a right pain that MS are forcing
you to ditch a perfectly serviceable machine, but many of them are 10+
years old, and they might actually be pleasantly surprised how much of
an improvement in performance the new one will bring along with lower
running costs.
On 14/04/2025 10:00, John Rumm wrote:
I have had this conversation with quite a few customers recently, and
have had to point out that yup it is a right pain that MS are forcing
you to ditch a perfectly serviceable machine, but many of them are 10+ years old, and they might actually be pleasantly surprised how much of
an improvement in performance the new one will bring along with lower running costs.
I have tried to follow this thread, because I am using a 2015 I5
desktop, which on the whole suits me, but what I cannot see is what a moderate home user like myself should be looking at for an upgrade which
will perform with modern OSs and software?
As long as it connects to my 24" monitor and some speakers I don't mind
if it is a tower or laptop, new or secondhand and I have not played a computer game in 30 years so that is not a requirement.
I suggest looking on ebay for a refurbished Dell, HP or Lenovo business box. Get one with an 8th generation Intel or Ryzen 3000 or later and it'll
support Windows 11.
On 13/05/2025 17:55, Theo wrote:
I suggest looking on ebay for a refurbished Dell, HP or Lenovo business box.
Get one with an 8th generation Intel or Ryzen 3000 or later and it'll support Windows 11.
Thanks for that but what's the differences between generation and
between I5 and I7?
ajh <[email protected]> wrote:
On 13/05/2025 17:55, Theo wrote:
I suggest looking on ebay for a refurbished Dell, HP or Lenovo business box.
Get one with an 8th generation Intel or Ryzen 3000 or later and it'll
support Windows 11.
Thanks for that but what's the differences between generation and
between I5 and I7?
Intel's 'generation' = year, roughly. '8th gen' = 2018
'i5' and 'i7' = performance grade, kinda like BMW 5 or 7 series.
Intel suffix letters (U/T/H/HQ/S/K/...) = mostly power class (laptop, desktop,
...), although sometimes other things (F = no onboard graphics)
AMD have a different numbering scheme, although they also do 'Ryzen 3/5/7'
to roughly compare with i3/i5/i7.
Sometimes there isn't a lot of difference between generations, and then
there can be a big leap the next year.
Performance wise, I'd find out the exact model number (eg i7-9700k) including suffix letters then search and add it to a comparison here: https://www.cpubenchmark.net/
to compare against your current CPU model number and other models you might be interested in. That gives two numbers: single thread, which is roughly how
'responsive' or 'snappy' you'll find the system, and multi thread, which is how it'll perform at more heavyweight tasks (assuming software is designed
to use multiple cores, which most modern software is).
Theo
On 14/05/2025 11:19, Theo wrote:
ajh <[email protected]> wrote:
On 13/05/2025 17:55, Theo wrote:
I suggest looking on ebay for a refurbished Dell, HP or Lenovo business box.
Get one with an 8th generation Intel or Ryzen 3000 or later and it'll
support Windows 11.
Thanks for that but what's the differences between generation and
between I5 and I7?
Intel's 'generation' = year, roughly. '8th gen' = 2018
'i5' and 'i7' = performance grade, kinda like BMW 5 or 7 series.
Intel suffix letters (U/T/H/HQ/S/K/...) = mostly power class (laptop, desktop,
...), although sometimes other things (F = no onboard graphics)
AMD have a different numbering scheme, although they also do 'Ryzen 3/5/7' >> to roughly compare with i3/i5/i7.
Sometimes there isn't a lot of difference between generations, and then
there can be a big leap the next year.
Performance wise, I'd find out the exact model number (eg i7-9700k) including
suffix letters then search and add it to a comparison here:
https://www.cpubenchmark.net/
to compare against your current CPU model number and other models you might >> be interested in. That gives two numbers: single thread, which is roughly how
'responsive' or 'snappy' you'll find the system, and multi thread, which is >> how it'll perform at more heavyweight tasks (assuming software is designed >> to use multiple cores, which most modern software is).
Theo
Thanks Theo
On Tue, 13 May 2025 15:51:19 +0100
ajh <[email protected]> wrote:
On 14/04/2025 10:00, John Rumm wrote:
I have had this conversation with quite a few customers recently, and
have had to point out that yup it is a right pain that MS are forcing
you to ditch a perfectly serviceable machine, but many of them are 10+
years old, and they might actually be pleasantly surprised how much of
an improvement in performance the new one will bring along with lower
running costs.
I have tried to follow this thread, because I am using a 2015 I5
desktop, which on the whole suits me, but what I cannot see is what a
moderate home user like myself should be looking at for an upgrade which
will perform with modern OSs and software?
As long as it connects to my 24" monitor and some speakers I don't mind
if it is a tower or laptop, new or secondhand and I have not played a
computer game in 30 years so that is not a requirement.
I have been building my own computers for over 40 years.
I tend to buy components one stage back from bleeding edge.
Last August I started on a new build, the first yonks.
I learned two things:
1) Manufacturers had become sloppy about quality control.
2) The biggest gain in performance was by deploying a solid state drive.
It took months, literally of returning stuff for testing.
The supplier eBuyer were terrific but it drove me crazy.
Anyway, I would not worry too mmuch about the processor if you are not running games.
HTH
Alan
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