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  • Re: Confirming Edward III Descent and Multiple Edward I Descents for Ho

    From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to Will Johnson on Tue Jan 25 14:03:55 2022
    On Tuesday, January 25, 2022 at 1:44:56 PM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:

    10. Sir Bartholomew Michell and NN.
    Abstract of Sir Bartholomew Michell’s will (proved 1616): https://books.google.ca/books?id=RktFAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA3#v=onepage&q&f=false

    11. Jane Michell and William Hockmore of Buckland Baron
    Abstract of William Hockmore’s will (proved 1627) https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Abstracts_of_Somersetshire_Wills_Etc/KktFAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA39&printsec=frontcover
    William Hockmore’s will (proved 1627): https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D884751


    This William Hockmore was also an MP

    http://www.histparl.ac.uk/volume/1604-1629/member/hockmore-william-1581-1626

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to Andrew Z on Tue Jan 25 13:44:55 2022
    On Tuesday, January 25, 2022 at 12:07:34 PM UTC-8, Andrew Z wrote:
    Dear group,

    I would like to share and confirm my research on the Hockmores of Buckland Baron. My research focused on verifying the later generations of the lineage below.

    1. Edward III, King of England and Philippa of Hainault
    2. John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster and Katherine de Roet
    3. Cardinal Henry Beaufort, Bishop of Winchester
    4. Joan Beaufort and Sir Edward Stradling
    5. Sir Henry Stradling and Elizabeth ap Thomas
    6. Thomas Stradling and Jenet Matthew
    7. Sir Edward Stradling and Elizabeth Arundell
    8. Jane Stradling and Alexander Popham

    9. Elizabeth Popham and Richard Michell
    Abstract of Richard Michell’s will (proved 1563): https://books.google.ca/books?id=RktFAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA3#v=onepage&q&f=false

    10. Sir Bartholomew Michell and NN.
    Abstract of Sir Bartholomew Michell’s will (proved 1616): https://books.google.ca/books?id=RktFAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA3#v=onepage&q&f=false

    11. Jane Michell and William Hockmore of Buckland Baron
    Abstract of William Hockmore’s will (proved 1627) https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Abstracts_of_Somersetshire_Wills_Etc/KktFAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA39&printsec=frontcover
    William Hockmore’s will (proved 1627): https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D884751

    12. Gregory Hockmore of Buckland Baron and Mary Reynell
    Petition identifying Gregory Hockmore as a grandson of Sir Bartholomew Michell (dated 1639):
    https://books.google.ca/books?id=2zMMAQAAIAAJ&lpg=PA49&pg=PA49#v=onepage&q&f=true

    13. Sir Gregory Hockmore of Buckland Baron and Honor Hele
    Enfeoffment identifying Gregory Hockmore as the son of late Gregory Hockmore, Esq. (dated 1658)
    https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/cb71b0e8-9d85-4f8d-a23d-eb8eff3395a1
    Sir Gregory Hockmore’s will (proved 1680): https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D3385447

    14. William Hockmore of Buckland Baron and Mary Prestwood
    William Hockmore’s will (proved 1708): https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D644838

    15. Honora Hockmore of Buckland Baron and Davidge Gould of Sharpham Park Davidge Gould’s will (proved 1767) https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D499808
    Lawsuit specifying Honora Hockmore’s descent from Gregory Hockmore https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10495171

    The wills listed above name the heirs for each subsequent generation, with the exception of Gregory Hockmore, whose will I wasn’t able to find; however, he is referenced as the father of Gregory Hockmore in two legal documents cited above.

    Furthermore, the possession of Michell manors by the Gould family seems to ultimately support this line of descent:
    Durleigh: https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/som/vol6/pp31-33
    Cannington: https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/som/vol6/pp76-85
    Wembdon: https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/som/vol6/pp325-330

    The research above also confirms the relevant part of the Hockmore pedigree from Vivian’s Visitiations of Devon:
    https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=yale.39002002213917&view=1up&seq=486&skin=2021

    In addition to the descent from Edward III detailed above, I believe the following Hockmore spouses are descendants of Edward I:

    1. Mary Floyer, daughter of William Floyer and Elizabeth Kirke (both through Carew/FitzAlan/Despenser/de Clare and Carew/Courtney/de Bohun)
    [as per Brad Verity’s previous post] https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/2Bqrww_7DY8/m/zmq3sMg7AQAJ

    2. Jane Michell, daughter of Sir Bartholomew Michell (via Genealogics through Fitzjames/Bluett/St. Maur/Brooke/Braybrooke/de la Pole/Cobham/Courtney/de Bohun)
    [link to her great-grandfather’s Genealogics page] https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00232237&tree=LEO

    3. Mary Reynell, daughter of Sir Richard Reynell and Mary Reynell of Creedy-Widger (via Genealogics through Periam/Prideaux/Yorke/Lutrell/Courtney/de Bohun)
    [link to her mother’s Genealogics page] https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00727267&tree=LEO

    4. Honor Hele, daughter of Sir Thomas Hele and Elizabeth Elwes (via Genealogics both through Champernowne/Courtney/de Bohun and Carew/FitzAlan/Despenser/de Clare)
    [link to her great-grandfather’s Genealogics page] https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00431240&tree=LEO

    5. Mary Prestwood, daughter of George Prestwood and Mary Isaac (via Genealogics through Stroude/Courtney/de Bohun)
    [link to her father’s Genealogics page] https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00713839&tree=LEO

    I would appreciate your input on:
    1) Confirming the accuracy of the above
    2) Identifying any additional lineages from Edward I or Edward III (if any). 3) Identifying Sir Bartholomew Michell’s wife (if possible). I didn’t see any reference to her in any of sources I consulted, and I came across only one pedigree for the Michells. The Popham pedigree immediately below it extends the Michell
    pedigree by providing some details about the children of Elizabeth Popham and Richard Michell.
    https://books.google.ca/books?id=paXRXTR6SXAC&pg=PA124#v=onepage&q&f=false

    Many thanks in advance!

    Andrew

    This represents an addition to Genealogics as we see here only one child given to Richard Michell

    https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00624081&tree=LEO

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jan 25 14:19:34 2022
    To identify possible birth range for Jane Michell we have

    Gregory Hockmore son of William
    was baptised 30 May 1611 Churston Ferrers, Devon

    On the backside we have that
    Bartholomew /Michell/ of West Hay, Somerset; Knt
    was "not yet 21" in his father's
    Will dated 12 Jul 5Eliz, proved 17 Feb 1563/4

    There is an entry at findagrave, for what's its worth that claims he was born exactly Nov 1559

    If we take that, for the moment, there is a marriage of some Bartholomew Michell to a Katherine Moseley which could fit this time period

    Marriage16 February 1595
    St Stephen Coleman Street, London, England, United Kingdom

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to Will Johnson on Tue Jan 25 14:23:45 2022
    On Tuesday, January 25, 2022 at 2:19:36 PM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:

    There is an entry at findagrave, for what's its worth that claims he was born exactly Nov 1559

    If we take that, for the moment, there is a marriage of some Bartholomew Michell to a Katherine Moseley which could fit this time period

    Marriage16 February 1595
    St Stephen Coleman Street, London, England, United Kingdom

    This cannot be.
    Checking the findagrave references, they cite and post a photo of the actual M.I. for William Hockmore and Jane Michell.

    This M.I. states that Jane was born "the 16th of July 1584" eldest daughter

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jan 25 14:40:28 2022
    Honor Hele was baptised
    25 Mar 1639 Holbeton, co Devon
    daughter of
    Thomas /Hele/ , Bnt 1627
    and
    Elizabeth /Curzon/

    She married Gregory /Hockmore/ at this same place
    1 Jan 1661
    Holbeton, co Devon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jan 25 14:45:57 2022
    The marriage date for Mary Prestwood to William Hockmore can be found here

    https://books.google.com/books?id=GmqlIibS95IC&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&dq=william%20hockmore%20mary%20prestwood&pg=PA615#v=onepage&q=william%20hockmore%20mary%20prestwood&f=true

    16 Apr 1691
    at North Huish
    citing the Parish Register of that place

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jan 25 14:53:17 2022
    The next generation appears

    https://books.google.com/books?id=qf4GAAAAQAAJ&dq=juliana%20prestwood%20hele&pg=PA569#v=onepage&q&f=true

    Although I note that Burke's calls 1Thomas' wife Honor FOWEL while the Vis Devon cited prior calls her Honora HOCKMORE

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andrew Z@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jan 25 20:19:41 2022
    Thank you, Will for the quick response, searching for information about Sir Bartholomew Michell's wife and examining the Hockmore generations in detail – I really appreciated it!

    To respond to the specific points that you raised:

    This represents an addition to Genealogics as we see here only one child given to Richard Michell
    https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00624081&tree=LEO

    Agreed. I also noticed that Richard Michell from the link in your post is not connected to his father’s Genealogics page (link from my original post). https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00232237&tree=LEO

    Additionally, in regard to the Floyer lineage, I noticed that Genealogics page for John Carew of Anthony House (William Floyer’s grandfather) doesn’t indicate his parents https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00710625&tree=LEO
    and is probably a duplicate of this John Carew of Anthony (whose descent from Edward I can be followed on Genealogics)
    https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00695437&tree=LEO

    Honor Hele was baptised
    25 Mar 1639 Holbeton, co Devon
    daughter of
    Thomas /Hele/ , Bnt 1627
    and
    Elizabeth /Curzon/

    With respect to Elizabeth Curzon, according to this source: (https://books.google.ca/books?id=aL0VAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA555&pg=PA556#v=onepage&q&f=false)
    “1661 Jan. 1 Gregory Huckmore gent, and Mrs. Honor Hele…[footnote] Daughter of Sir Thomas Hele, by Elizabeth, daughter of Edward Elwes (third son of Geoffry Elwes, of Woodford, Essex, fourth son of William Elwes, of Askham, Notts), and not Elizabeth
    Curzon, as p. 466 of Vivian's Visitations of Devon. She was married to Sir Thomas Hele at S. Mary, Kensington, July 16th, 1632”
    This information about Elizabeth Elwes is also reflected in Sir Thomas Hele’s HOP article:
    https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1660-1690/member/hele-sir-thomas-1595-1670

    The marriage date for Mary Prestwood to William Hockmore can be found here

    Additionally, William Hockmore and Mary Prestwood had a well documented divorce case:
    Transcription:
    https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=837779.9
    Original:
    http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT7/C78/C78no1160/IMG_0001.htm

    The next generation appears
    https://books.google.com/books?id=qf4GAAAAQAAJ&dq=juliana%20prestwood%20hele&pg=PA569#v=onepage&q&f=true
    Although I note that Burke's calls 1Thomas' wife Honor FOWEL while the Vis Devon cited prior calls her Honora HOCKMORE

    Good point. Burke’s Commoners from the link immediately above indeed contradicts the Prestwood pedigree in Vivian’s Visitations of Devon, which states that Thomas Prestwood’s wife was Honor Hockmore, daughter of Sir Gregory Hockmore. It also has
    incomplete information in regard to William Hockmore’s daughters; as per the divorce case mentioned above, they were “Mary Hockmore Jane Hockmore Honora Hockmore Alice Hockmore and Prestwood Hockmore,” but only three of them are named with their
    spouses in the lawsuit cited in my original post: “Davidge Gould, esq of Sharpham Park, Somerset and Honora Gould his wife, Brent Reynell Spiller, esq of Lyme Regis, Dorset and Mary Spiller his wife, William Pitt, esq of Crickett, Somerset and Jane
    Pitt his wife (said oratrices are daughters of William Hockmere esq, late of Buckland Baron, Devon”

    All the best,

    Andrew

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 27 11:36:58 2022
    Elizabeth Elwes appears here with her parents, and husband

    https://books.google.com/books?id=AIc1AQAAMAAJ&lpg=RA1-PA138-IA1&ots=vKSf8X-Pbz&dq=%22edward%20elwes%22%20merchant%20taylor&pg=RA1-PA138-IA1#v=onepage&q&f=true

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to Will Johnson on Thu Jan 27 11:46:00 2022
    On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 11:37:00 AM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:
    Elizabeth Elwes appears here with her parents, and husband

    https://books.google.com/books?id=AIc1AQAAMAAJ&lpg=RA1-PA138-IA1&ots=vKSf8X-Pbz&dq=%22edward%20elwes%22%20merchant%20taylor&pg=RA1-PA138-IA1#v=onepage&q&f=true

    We can see here why the mistake that she was a Curzon (by birth)
    Her mother Susan Cresswell, after Edward Elwes had died (1623), she remarried to John Curzon of Waterperry

    I *suggest* this is that John here being baptised, son of Francis lord of that place (by the way)

    https://books.google.com/books?id=uVpIAAAAYAAJ&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&dq=curzon%20waterperry%20oxon&pg=PA214#v=onepage&q=curzon%20waterperry%20oxon&f=false

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 27 12:00:56 2022
    We see further

    https://books.google.com/books?id=Qfk3tPvTojkC&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&dq=magdalen%20dormer%20john%20curzon&pg=PA247#v=onepage&q=magdalen%20dormer%20john%20curzon&f=false

    That John Curzon married firstly Magdalen /Dormer/
    and they were the parents of the same
    Robert /Curzon/ of Water-Pyrie, co Oxon; Knt
    who married
    Diana /Tufton/ eighth daughter bap 27 Apr 1611 Hothfield, co Kent

    daughter of
    Nicholas Tufton, 1st Earl of /Thanet/ 1628-; Ho
    and
    Frances /Cecil/

    Robert Curzon is a Cecil5 which makes his parents Cecil6's

    Magdalen /Dormer/
    died and he married secondly, to this Susan /Cresswell/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andrew Z@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Thu Jan 27 13:09:33 2022
    On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 2:37:00 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
    Elizabeth Elwes appears here with her parents, and husband

    https://books.google.com/books?id=AIc1AQAAMAAJ&lpg=RA1-PA138-IA1&ots=vKSf8X-Pbz&dq=%22edward%20elwes%22%20merchant%20taylor&pg=RA1-PA138-IA1#v=onepage&q&f=true

    Thank you, Will, that's a great find! I'll have to study it more detail later, but a cursory search reveals a potential Cresswell/Dyott/Weston connection. I noticed that there was some discussion in the past about John Weston and Cecily Neville (https://
    groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/37WN4EU-PyA/m/8_KiDylo42AJ) and that HOP identifies Cecily Neville as "sis. of Ralph, 4th Earl of Westmorland" and as the mother of Robert Weston (https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/
    member/weston-robert-1522-73) and James Weston (https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/weston-james-1525-89). Has there been any new research on Cecily Neville (Weston) since 2014?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 27 15:12:41 2022
    Some more details on Susan Cresswell's immediate family

    https://books.google.com/books?id=N__lAAAAMAAJ&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&dq=%22richard%20cresswell%22%20of%20barnhurst&pg=PA90#v=onepage&q=%22richard%20cresswell%22%20of%20barnhurst&f=false

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 27 14:56:07 2022
    Doing this research has led me to the burial date for that Robert Curzon who m Diana Tufton
    16 Mar 1644 at Waterperry, Oxon

    https://books.google.com/books?id=uVpIAAAAYAAJ&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&dq=curzon%20waterperry%20oxon&pg=PA215#v=onepage&q=curzon%20waterperry%20oxon&f=false

    so we see that he d.v.p. as his own father was buried there 15 Jan 1655
    and I take that "Guillem" to be the second son William thus leaving Waterperry to the third son as Thomas

    allowing us to match what BHO says about Waterperry, although they dont give all of these details

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andrew Z@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Jan 28 03:14:42 2022
    On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 6:12:43 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
    Some more details on Susan Cresswell's immediate family

    https://books.google.com/books?id=N__lAAAAMAAJ&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&dq=%22richard%20cresswell%22%20of%20barnhurst&pg=PA90#v=onepage&q=%22richard%20cresswell%22%20of%20barnhurst&f=false

    Thanks for sharing the Cresswell pedigree, Will! It links up with Dyott pedigrees showing Richard Cresswell marrying Jane Dyott, daughter of Catherine Weston:
    https://books.google.ca/books?id=gfwcAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA117&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
    https://www.google.ca/books/edition/A_Survey_of_Staffordshire/DEgJAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&d&pg=PA232&printsec=frontcover
    https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Dyott_s_Diary_1781_1845/U-9MAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PT1&printsec=frontcover

    Combining the Elwes, Cresswell and Dyott pedigrees posted above (without any additional verification) we get the following lineage:
    William Hockmore and Mary Prestwood
    Honor Hele and Sir Gregory Hockmore of Buckland Baron
    Elizabeth Elwes and Sir Thomas Hele
    Susannah Cresswell and Edward Elwes
    Jane Dyott and Richard Cresswell
    Catherine Weston and John Dyott
    John Weston of Lichfield

    Which then leads us to the 1632 Weston pedigree issue...

    All the best!

    Andrew

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
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