That average speed I had yesterday after that high average two days before on the Garmin 830 looks suspiciously like it wasn't a moving average but one that included the 30 minutes or so stopped time at the coffee stop. That time was the same numbersas the 830 had before I changed it over to moving average only.
I downloaded the 1030 manual and cannot find anything in it that talks about setting a moving only averfage speed. I finally managed to find something that said to record only when moving but I don't know if that only starts the time or if it turns thetimer off when you're below the trigger speed.
Does anyone have a 1030 and do they understand how to record moving average speed only? The software is entirely different from the 830.
On 6/22/2025 4:40 PM, cyclintom wrote:as the 830 had before I changed it over to moving average only.
That average speed I had yesterday after that high average two days before on the Garmin 830 looks suspiciously like it wasn't a moving average but one that included the 30 minutes or so stopped time at the coffee stop. That time was the same numbers
the timer off when you're below the trigger speed.I downloaded the 1030 manual and cannot find anything in it that talks about setting a moving only averfage speed. I finally managed to find something that said to record only when moving but I don't know if that only starts the time or if it turns
Does anyone have a 1030 and do they understand how to record moving average speed only? The software is entirely different from the 830.
I know nothing of Garmin but I do know how to use
duckduckgo.com:
https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/edge1030/EN-US/Edge_1030_OM_EN-US.pdf
For those who cannot or will not read manuals (not you in
particular. This is an epidemic) there are severl Garmin
videos in the support area:
https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?productID=567991&tab=videos
That average speed I had yesterday after that high average two days
before on the Garmin 830 looks suspiciously like it wasn't a moving
average but one that included the 30 minutes or so stopped time at the
coffee stop. That time was the same numbers as the 830 had before I
changed it over to moving average only.
I downloaded the 1030 manual and cannot find anything in it that talks
about setting a moving only averfage speed. I finally managed to find something that said to record only when moving but I don't know if that
only starts the time or if it turns the timer off when you're below the trigger speed.
Does anyone have a 1030 and do they understand how to record moving
average speed only? The software is entirely different from the 830.
That average speed I had yesterday after that high average two days before on the Garmin 830 looks suspiciously like it wasn't a moving average but one that included the 30 minutes or so stopped time at the coffee stop. That time was the same numbersas the 830 had before I changed it over to moving average only.
I downloaded the 1030 manual and cannot find anything in it that talks about setting a moving only averfage speed. I finally managed to find something that said to record only when moving but I don't know if that only starts the time or if it turns thetimer off when you're below the trigger speed.
Does anyone have a 1030 and do they understand how to record moving average speed only? The software is entirely different from the 830.This is simple. All the garmin stuff will show you the total time and
cyclintom <[email protected]> wrote:
That average speed I had yesterday after that high average two days
before on the Garmin 830 looks suspiciously like it wasn't a moving
average but one that included the 30 minutes or so stopped time at the
coffee stop. That time was the same numbers as the 830 had before I
changed it over to moving average only.
I downloaded the 1030 manual and cannot find anything in it that talks
about setting a moving only averfage speed. I finally managed to find
something that said to record only when moving but I don't know if that
only starts the time or if it turns the timer off when you're below the trigger speed.
Does anyone have a 1030 and do they understand how to record moving
average speed only? The software is entirely different from the 830.
Software is exactly the same as the 830 as it’s part of the xx30 range as apposed to the xx40 or xx50 range.
and thus within each or only profile you have set up, auto features/auto pause and can select Off or when stopped or custom speed.
Roger Merriman
On 6/22/2025 6:55 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
cyclintom <[email protected]> wrote:
That average speed I had yesterday after that high average two days
before on the Garmin 830 looks suspiciously like it wasn't a moving
average but one that included the 30 minutes or so stopped time at the
coffee stop. That time was the same numbers as the 830 had before I
changed it over to moving average only.
I downloaded the 1030 manual and cannot find anything in it that talks
about setting a moving only averfage speed. I finally managed to find
something that said to record only when moving but I don't know if that
only starts the time or if it turns the timer off when you're below the trigger speed.
Does anyone have a 1030 and do they understand how to record moving
average speed only? The software is entirely different from the 830.
Software is exactly the same as the 830 as it’s part of the xx30 range as >> apposed to the xx40 or xx50 range.
and thus within each or only profile you have set up, auto features/auto
pause and can select Off or when stopped or custom speed.
Roger Merriman
We've already been through this with tom. I went so far as to copy/paste
the instructions for setting up the auto-pause from both the 830 and
1030 manuals (If you remember he insisted auto-pause was something that
was recently added when it's been a feature on every Garmin bike
computer ever sold, ever).
it's possible he's having trouble getting the moving average to display.
he might need some guidance getting the datafield menu, but I'm done
helping him.
On 6/23/2025 11:19 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
it's possible he's having trouble getting the moving average to
display. he might need some guidance getting the datafield menu, but
I'm done helping him.
I was suffering some irritation with my new cell phone. A 13-year-old
fixed it for me within minutes.
Tom should hire a 13-year-old.
We've already been through this with tom. I went so far as to copy/paste
the instructions for setting up the auto-pause from both the 830 and
1030 manuals (If you remember he insisted auto-pause was something that
was recently added when it's been a feature on every Garmin bike
computer ever sold, ever).
it's possible he's having trouble getting the moving average to display.
he might need some guidance getting the datafield menu, but I'm done
helping him.
Software is exactly the same as the 830 as it?s part of the xx30 range as apposed to the xx40 or xx50 range.
and thus within each or only profile you have set up, auto features/auto pause and can select Off or when stopped or custom speed.
On 6/23/2025 11:19 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
it's possible he's having trouble getting the moving average to display.
he might need some guidance getting the datafield menu, but I'm done helping him.
I was suffering some irritation with my new cell phone. A 13-year-old
fixed it for me within minutes.
Tom should hire a 13-year-old.
On 6/22/2025 4:40 PM, cyclintom wrote:as the 830 had before I changed it over to moving average only.
That average speed I had yesterday after that high average two days before on the Garmin 830 looks suspiciously like it wasn't a moving average but one that included the 30 minutes or so stopped time at the coffee stop. That time was the same numbers
the timer off when you're below the trigger speed.I downloaded the 1030 manual and cannot find anything in it that talks about setting a moving only averfage speed. I finally managed to find something that said to record only when moving but I don't know if that only starts the time or if it turns
Does anyone have a 1030 and do they understand how to record moving average speed only? The software is entirely different from the 830.This is simple. All the garmin stuff will show you the total time and
the moving average. If you are not moving the time will be recorded but
not use for the moving average. Garmin uses moving average and there is nothing for you to do. It will handle it and will be consistent in
figures. Tom you have a lot problems with Garmin but I think you are
over thinking it all. They are advanced devices and capable of deadly accuracy and information at least with speed, time. and distance.
On Sun Jun 22 19:47:15 2025 Mark J cleary wrote:as the 830 had before I changed it over to moving average only.
On 6/22/2025 4:40 PM, cyclintom wrote:
That average speed I had yesterday after that high average two days before on the Garmin 830 looks suspiciously like it wasn't a moving average but one that included the 30 minutes or so stopped time at the coffee stop. That time was the same numbers
the timer off when you're below the trigger speed.
I downloaded the 1030 manual and cannot find anything in it that talks about setting a moving only averfage speed. I finally managed to find something that said to record only when moving but I don't know if that only starts the time or if it turns
This is simple. All the garmin stuff will show you the total time and
Does anyone have a 1030 and do they understand how to record moving average speed only? The software is entirely different from the 830.
the moving average. If you are not moving the time will be recorded but
not use for the moving average. Garmin uses moving average and there is
nothing for you to do. It will handle it and will be consistent in
figures. Tom you have a lot problems with Garmin but I think you are
over thinking it all. They are advanced devices and capable of deadly
accuracy and information at least with speed, time. and distance.
On the 830, if the bike is not moving, it can be set to turn the timer off. I haven't found any such setting in the 1030 manual. By going though the pages on the 1030 I did find a place that said that it would only count time if the bike is movingabove a certain minimum speed. But I haven't managed to find any way to turn that on though I can set that minium speed to anything I want. Presently it is set for 5 mph and I don't ride that slow even on hard claimbs but that does not turn the timer off
The 830 works fine but the 1030 does not operate in the same manner. IF the 1030 was the same as the 830 you would expect the manuals to be the same and they are not.
On 6/25/2025 4:00 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Mon Jun 23 13:32:57 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/23/2025 11:19 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
it's possible he's having trouble getting the moving average to display. >>>> he might need some guidance getting the datafield menu, but I'm done
helping him.
I was suffering some irritation with my new cell phone. A 13-year-old
fixed it for me within minutes.
Tom should hire a 13-year-old.
Frank, are you saying that you don't know anything about a Garmin but someone else should?
I have no interest in Garmins. But I'm saying _you_ don't know enough
about your Garmin, and that today's teenagers are often adept at
electronic devices and their menu systems.
But forget it. Figure it out yourself, while bitching that you are right
and the rest of the universe is wrong, as you usually do.
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to tell me how
much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to achieve with
your Garmin. Training for your next race?
On Sun Jun 22 22:55:54 2025 Roger Merriman wrote:
Software is exactly the same as the 830 as it?s part of the xx30 range as
apposed to the xx40 or xx50 range.
and thus within each or only profile you have set up, auto features/auto
pause and can select Off or when stopped or custom speed.
No it isn't.It is entirely different with a different operating system.
There is NO spot in which you can tell the system to only show moving
speed only aqs in the 830. There is a spot where you can tell it to only
log movement over (default) 5 mph and you can maually change that speed.
And average speed registered by the 830 is 2 mph faster than the 1030
which is plainly not shutting off during stops.
I have gone though the manual and it does not even have the same number
of pages as that of the 830. And there is no spot in the 1030 manual that even mentions moving speed.
I'm sure there's some way but it will take more experimentation.
It is entirely different with a different operating system.
there is no spot in the 1030 manual that even mentions moving speed.
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 4:00 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Mon Jun 23 13:32:57 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/23/2025 11:19 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
it's possible he's having trouble getting the moving average to display. >>>>> he might need some guidance getting the datafield menu, but I'm done >>>>> helping him.
I was suffering some irritation with my new cell phone. A 13-year-old
fixed it for me within minutes.
Tom should hire a 13-year-old.
Frank, are you saying that you don't know anything about a Garmin but someone else should?
I have no interest in Garmins. But I'm saying _you_ don't know enough
about your Garmin, and that today's teenagers are often adept at
electronic devices and their menu systems.
But forget it. Figure it out yourself, while bitching that you are right
and the rest of the universe is wrong, as you usually do.
Indeed does seem to believe all sorts of things about the Garmin�s that a >clearly not correct!
Personally they are handy for navigation, while I use maps (yes paper) to >plot a route a device that can keep one on that route, this sort of thing
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to tell me how
much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to achieve with
your Garmin. Training for your next race?
is much less with roads, which are by some degree easier to navigate.
I do use Strava etc for the social and so on aspect.
And I do prefer Strava route builder over others particularly as I do ride >routes less traveled so that�s always useful.
Roger Merriman
On Wed, 25 Jun 2025 19:51:50 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
It is entirely different with a different operating system.
How can you tell?
Do you have source code for the Garmin Edge product
line? What does "entirely different" mean to you? Is like the
difference between Windoze and Linux, or just a version number
difference?
Garmin GPS runs on GarminOS. 3rd party apps are written in MonkeyC,
which is actually a VM. GarminOS and MonkeyC are both proprietary to
Garmin with very little information available on the internet. Just
about everything Garmin sells was written in MonkeyC and runs on
GarminOS. Your claim that each Garmin product uses and "entirely
different operating system" is a good laugh. Have fun:
"Compromising Garmin’s Sport Watches: A Deep Dive into GarminOS and
its MonkeyC Virtual Machine" <https://www.anvilsecure.com/blog/compromising-garmins-sport-watches-a-deep-dive-into-garminos-and-its-monkeyc-virtual-machine.html>
"A Deep Dive Into GarminOS And Its MonkeyC Virtual Machine" <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsqLb-l-TjA>
there is no spot in the 1030 manual that even mentions moving speed.
That's understandable. If you're not moving, your speed is always
zero.
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to tell me how
much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to achieve with
your Garmin. Training for your next race?
Am Wed, 25 Jun 2025 16:18:10 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski ><[email protected]>:
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to tell me how
much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to achieve with
your Garmin. Training for your next race?
I don't need electronics to tell me that I'm getting slower over time, >especially after I couldn't ride my bikes or train my muscles, for a
while.
On the other hand, after an earlier accident I was quite successfull to >regain strength by systematic training, both on an indoor trainer and
then starting outdoors again. Currently, measuring and controlling
wattage, amount of work, heart rate, speed, cadence etc. using Garmin
devices like the 1030 plus helped a lot.
The joke about "training for you next race" gets somewhat old. Be happy
that you are strong enough and stay strong enough without help from
training equipment. But please, have some understanding for the needs
and ways of people who aren't in your comfortable position.
Personally, I don't need any help with any of this, thank you very much.
But considering the toxicity here, I probably wouldn't ask.
On the other hand, I'm not that interested in explaining any of what I >learned to people who are obviously unable to make use of it. Cyclintoms >political statements are disgusting. He is incapable of understanding
basic facts about how Garmin devices work. Garmin devices are
unnecessary. We can agree on that, including the latter. You can clearly
can do without a Garmin 1030 or a similar device.
Where I strongly disagree, however, is your opinion that these devices
aren't usefull in general. In my situation, I'd even call these
necessary, in retrospect. The older you get, the less time you have to
work against muscle loss. And sometimes shit happenes. My experience,
my opinion, you are free to disagree.
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 4:00 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Mon Jun 23 13:32:57 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/23/2025 11:19 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
it's possible he's having trouble getting the moving average to display. >>>>> he might need some guidance getting the datafield menu, but I'm done >>>>> helping him.
I was suffering some irritation with my new cell phone. A 13-year-old
fixed it for me within minutes.
Tom should hire a 13-year-old.
Frank, are you saying that you don't know anything about a Garmin but someone else should?
I have no interest in Garmins. But I'm saying _you_ don't know enough
about your Garmin, and that today's teenagers are often adept at
electronic devices and their menu systems.
But forget it. Figure it out yourself, while bitching that you are right
and the rest of the universe is wrong, as you usually do.
Indeed does seem to believe all sorts of things about the Garmin’s that a clearly not correct!
Personally they are handy for navigation, while I use maps (yes paper) to plot a route a device that can keep one on that route, this sort of thing
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to tell me how
much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to achieve with
your Garmin. Training for your next race?
is much less with roads, which are by some degree easier to navigate.
I do use Strava etc for the social and so on aspect.
And I do prefer Strava route builder over others particularly as I do ride routes less traveled so that’s always useful.
Roger Merriman
From the manual page 53:
"Using Auto Pause
You can use the Auto Pause feature to pause the timer automatically when
you stop moving or when your speed drops below a specified value. This >feature is helpful if your ride includes stop lights or other places
where you need to slow down or stop.
NOTE: History is not recorded while the timer is stopped or paused.
"
The relevant point to my response, was when Modine's character was
teaching the kids how to read a map - which they would need since they >weren't' going to be allowed to bring cellphones on the trip.
One of the teenagers suggested they avoid a city center since the map
had the roads shown in red, meaning they had a lot of traffic. The >interaction between the two about how a paper map could possibly be
updated in real time was hilarious.
On 6/26/2025 7:49 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Wed, 25 Jun 2025 16:18:10 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]>:
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to
tell me how
much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to
achieve with
your Garmin. Training for your next race?
I don't need electronics to tell me that I'm getting
slower over time,
especially after I couldn't ride my bikes or train my
muscles, for a
while.
On the other hand, after an earlier accident I was quite
successfull to
regain strength by systematic training, both on an indoor
trainer and
then starting outdoors again. Currently, measuring and
controlling
wattage, amount of work, heart rate, speed, cadence etc.
using Garmin
devices like the 1030 plus helped a lot.
The joke about "training for you next race" gets somewhat
old. Be happy
that you are strong enough and stay strong enough without
help from
training equipment. But please, have some understanding
for the needs
and ways of people who aren't in your comfortable position.
Personally, I don't need any help with any of this, thank
you very much.
But considering the toxicity here, I probably wouldn't ask.
On the other hand, I'm not that interested in explaining
any of what I
learned to people who are obviously unable to make use of
it. Cyclintoms
political statements are disgusting. He is incapable of
understanding
basic facts about how Garmin devices work. Garmin devices are
unnecessary. We can agree on that, including the latter.
You can clearly
can do without a Garmin 1030 or a similar device.
Where I strongly disagree, however, is your opinion that
these devices
aren't usefull in general. In my situation, I'd even call
these
necessary, in retrospect. The older you get, the less time
you have to
work against muscle loss. And sometimes shit happenes. My
experience,
my opinion, you are free to disagree.
I'll take your word, and the word of others, that Garmins
are useful as training aids. I won't be personally testing
that idea, for several reasons.
One is that I never used any dedicated training regime, even
back when I was hoping to get faster. Whatever skills or
power I had came from just riding the bike, with a few added
details. I pushed myself to the point of pain on certain
rides home from work. I rode our tandem with my kids or my
wife when their power wasn't up to mine. I avoided the
"granny gear" except on tour, no matter how steep the hill.
Those practices kept me sufficiently strong to ride wherever
I wanted, with whomever I wanted.
Another reason is that I had almost no interest in racing. I
didn't have enough time to devote to the training that would
have been necessary, and I didn't want the pain that would
have been necessary.
But the third reason is my general frustration with
excessive electronic complexity, and that's in all aspects
of life. I generally prefer simplicity. Programmers seem to
love piles and piles of menu options, as well as software
revisions and sometimes arcane user interfaces. I don't want
that stuff injecting itself into my cycling experience.
Obviously, YMMV.
But I do have a tiny bit of curiosity regarding Tom's
motivation for using a Garmin. He's certainly not training
to race, and AFAIK he's not getting any information he
couldn't get from a standard cyclometer's "average speed"
feature - or from a mechanical cyclometer and a stopwatch.
On 6/26/2025 7:49 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Wed, 25 Jun 2025 16:18:10 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]>:
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to tell me how
much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to achieve with
your Garmin. Training for your next race?
I don't need electronics to tell me that I'm getting slower over time,
especially after I couldn't ride my bikes or train my muscles, for a
while.
On the other hand, after an earlier accident I was quite successfull to
regain strength by systematic training, both on an indoor trainer and
then starting outdoors again. Currently, measuring and controlling
wattage, amount of work, heart rate, speed, cadence etc. using Garmin
devices like the 1030 plus helped a lot.
The joke about "training for you next race" gets somewhat old. Be happy
that you are strong enough and stay strong enough without help from
training equipment. But please, have some understanding for the needs
and ways of people who aren't in your comfortable position.
Personally, I don't need any help with any of this, thank you very much.
But considering the toxicity here, I probably wouldn't ask.
On the other hand, I'm not that interested in explaining any of what I
learned to people who are obviously unable to make use of it. Cyclintoms
political statements are disgusting. He is incapable of understanding
basic facts about how Garmin devices work. Garmin devices are
unnecessary. We can agree on that, including the latter. You can clearly
can do without a Garmin 1030 or a similar device.
Where I strongly disagree, however, is your opinion that these devices
aren't usefull in general. In my situation, I'd even call these
necessary, in retrospect. The older you get, the less time you have to
work against muscle loss. And sometimes shit happenes. My experience,
my opinion, you are free to disagree.
I'll take your word, and the word of others, that Garmins are useful as >training aids. I won't be personally testing that idea, for several
reasons.
One is that I never used any dedicated training regime, even back when I
was hoping to get faster. Whatever skills or power I had came from just >riding the bike, with a few added details. I pushed myself to the point
of pain on certain rides home from work. I rode our tandem with my kids
or my wife when their power wasn't up to mine. I avoided the "granny
gear" except on tour, no matter how steep the hill. Those practices kept
me sufficiently strong to ride wherever I wanted, with whomever I wanted.
Another reason is that I had almost no interest in racing. I didn't have >enough time to devote to the training that would have been necessary,
and I didn't want the pain that would have been necessary.
But the third reason is my general frustration with excessive electronic >complexity, and that's in all aspects of life. I generally prefer
simplicity. Programmers seem to love piles and piles of menu options, as
well as software revisions and sometimes arcane user interfaces. I don't
want that stuff injecting itself into my cycling experience. Obviously,
YMMV.
But I do have a tiny bit of curiosity regarding Tom's motivation for
using a Garmin. He's certainly not training to race, and AFAIK he's not >getting any information he couldn't get from a standard cyclometer's
"average speed" feature - or from a mechanical cyclometer and a stopwatch.
Am Wed, 25 Jun 2025 16:18:10 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski <[email protected]>:
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to tell me how
much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to achieve with
your Garmin. Training for your next race?
I don't need electronics to tell me that I'm getting slower over time, especially after I couldn't ride my bikes or train my muscles, for a
while.
On the other hand, after an earlier accident I was quite successfull to regain strength by systematic training, both on an indoor trainer and
then starting outdoors again. Currently, measuring and controlling
wattage, amount of work, heart rate, speed, cadence etc. using Garmin
devices like the 1030 plus helped a lot.
The joke about "training for you next race" gets somewhat old. Be happy
that you are strong enough and stay strong enough without help from
training equipment. But please, have some understanding for the needs
and ways of people who aren't in your comfortable position.
Personally, I don't need any help with any of this, thank you very much.
But considering the toxicity here, I probably wouldn't ask.
On the other hand, I'm not that interested in explaining any of what I learned to people who are obviously unable to make use of it. Cyclintoms political statements are disgusting. He is incapable of understanding
basic facts about how Garmin devices work. Garmin devices are
unnecessary. We can agree on that, including the latter. You can clearly
can do without a Garmin 1030 or a similar device.
Where I strongly disagree, however, is your opinion that these devices
aren't usefull in general. In my situation, I'd even call these
necessary, in retrospect. The older you get, the less time you have to
work against muscle loss. And sometimes shit happenes. My experience,
my opinion, you are free to disagree.
Am Wed, 25 Jun 2025 16:18:10 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski <[email protected]>:
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to tell me how
much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to achieve with
your Garmin. Training for your next race?
I don't need electronics to tell me that I'm getting slower over time, especially after I couldn't ride my bikes or train my muscles, for a
while.
On the other hand, after an earlier accident I was quite successfull to regain strength by systematic training, both on an indoor trainer and
then starting outdoors again. Currently, measuring and controlling
wattage, amount of work, heart rate, speed, cadence etc. using Garmin
devices like the 1030 plus helped a lot.
The joke about "training for you next race" gets somewhat old. Be happy
that you are strong enough and stay strong enough without help from
training equipment. But please, have some understanding for the needs
and ways of people who aren't in your comfortable position.
Personally, I don't need any help with any of this, thank you very much.
But considering the toxicity here, I probably wouldn't ask.
On the other hand, I'm not that interested in explaining any of what I learned to people who are obviously unable to make use of it. Cyclintoms political statements are disgusting. He is incapable of understanding
basic facts about how Garmin devices work. Garmin devices are
unnecessary. We can agree on that, including the latter. You can clearly
can do without a Garmin 1030 or a similar device.
Where I strongly disagree, however, is your opinion that these devices
aren't usefull in general. In my situation, I'd even call these
necessary, in retrospect. The older you get, the less time you have to
work against muscle loss. And sometimes shit happenes. My experience,
my opinion, you are free to disagree.
On Wed, 25 Jun 2025 19:51:50 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
It is entirely different with a different operating system.
How can you tell? Do you have source code for the Garmin Edge product
line? What does "entirely different" mean to you? Is like the
difference between Windoze and Linux, or just a version number
difference?
Garmin GPS runs on GarminOS. 3rd party apps are written in MonkeyC,
which is actually a VM. GarminOS and MonkeyC are both proprietary to
Garmin with very little information available on the internet. Just
about everything Garmin sells was written in MonkeyC and runs on
GarminOS. Your claim that each Garmin product uses and "entirely
different operating system" is a good laugh. Have fun:
"Compromising Garmin?s Sport Watches: A Deep Dive into GarminOS and
its MonkeyC Virtual Machine" <https://www.anvilsecure.com/blog/compromising-garmins-sport-watches-a-deep-dive-into-garminos-and-its-monkeyc-virtual-machine.html>
"A Deep Dive Into GarminOS And Its MonkeyC Virtual Machine" <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsqLb-l-TjA>
there is no spot in the 1030 manual that even mentions moving speed.
That's understandable. If you're not moving, your speed is always
zero.
On Wed, 25 Jun 2025 19:51:50 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
It is entirely different with a different operating system.
How can you tell? Do you have source code for the Garmin Edge product
line? What does "entirely different" mean to you? Is like the
difference between Windoze and Linux, or just a version number
difference?
Garmin GPS runs on GarminOS. 3rd party apps are written in MonkeyC,
which is actually a VM. GarminOS and MonkeyC are both proprietary to
Garmin with very little information available on the internet. Just
about everything Garmin sells was written in MonkeyC and runs on
GarminOS. Your claim that each Garmin product uses and "entirely
different operating system" is a good laugh. Have fun:
"Compromising Garmin?s Sport Watches: A Deep Dive into GarminOS and
its MonkeyC Virtual Machine" <https://www.anvilsecure.com/blog/compromising-garmins-sport-watches-a-deep-dive-into-garminos-and-its-monkeyc-virtual-machine.html>
"A Deep Dive Into GarminOS And Its MonkeyC Virtual Machine" <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsqLb-l-TjA>
there is no spot in the 1030 manual that even mentions moving speed.
That's understandable. If you're not moving, your speed is always
zero.
On 6/25/2025 7:19 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jun 2025 19:51:50 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
It is entirely different with a different operating system.
How can you tell?
This is how: https://www.flickr.com/photos/jocke66/4561715144
Do you have source code for the Garmin Edge product
line? What does "entirely different" mean to you? Is like the
difference between Windoze and Linux, or just a version number
difference?
Garmin GPS runs on GarminOS. 3rd party apps are written in MonkeyC,
which is actually a VM. GarminOS and MonkeyC are both proprietary to Garmin with very little information available on the internet. Just
about everything Garmin sells was written in MonkeyC and runs on
GarminOS. Your claim that each Garmin product uses and "entirely
different operating system" is a good laugh. Have fun:
"Compromising Garmin?s Sport Watches: A Deep Dive into GarminOS and
its MonkeyC Virtual Machine" <https://www.anvilsecure.com/blog/compromising-garmins-sport-watches-a-deep-dive-into-garminos-and-its-monkeyc-virtual-machine.html>
"A Deep Dive Into GarminOS And Its MonkeyC Virtual Machine" <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsqLb-l-TjA>
there is no spot in the 1030 manual that even mentions moving speed.
That's understandable. If you're not moving, your speed is always
zero.
Garmin has a 'moving speed' display, they just don't call it that. Most people with the IQ above a cockroach would be able to understand that
the average speed displayed while the unit has auto-pause enabled is
'moving speed', and that no data will be recorded while the unit is paused.
From the manual page 53:
"Using Auto Pause
You can use the Auto Pause feature to pause the timer automatically when
you stop moving or when your speed drops below a specified value. This feature is helpful if your ride includes stop lights or other places
where you need to slow down or stop.
NOTE: History is not recorded while the timer is stopped or paused.
"
Garmins don't have a a different 'average speed' and 'moving speed' display.
Garmins have maybe a dozen or so timers, two of which are 'Elapsed Time'
and 'Timer'.
"Elapsed Time" is the time the unit records the activity. If you pause
the unit, the Elapsed timer stops. This is a selectable data field.
The 'timer' does not pause and will show the total time since the
activity was started. This is a selectable data field.
With auto pause enabled the unit does the math for you figuring out your average speed by dividing the distance traveled by elapsed time (the
total time minus the paused time).
If tom has some interest in seeing the difference between his moving
speed average and total average speed, he's going to have to calculate
it himself by dividing the distance by the time in the 'timer' data
field. The garmin will do one or the other for him, but not both.
On Thu, 26 Jun 2025 06:36:17 -0400, zen cycle
<[email protected]> wrote:
From the manual page 53:
"Using Auto Pause
You can use the Auto Pause feature to pause the timer automatically when
you stop moving or when your speed drops below a specified value. This
feature is helpful if your ride includes stop lights or other places
where you need to slow down or stop.
NOTE: History is not recorded while the timer is stopped or paused.
"
Thanks for the details. Methinks that's done to deal with the
position wandering when the GPS is not moving. When this happens
(weak signal, dense foliage, interference, etc), the GPS will indicate
a small movement (if I disable WAAS and only look at the GPS
constellation).
"Movement or Distance Gained While Not Moving" <https://support.garmin.com/en-HK/?faq=bahqpxKhZt69cgKIQaYGO7>
Drivel: This is overkill, but I've been looking into "cm accuracy"
using RTK (real time kinematics). It's probably useless for cycling,
but is very useful for surveying. I haven't bought any hardware yet,
but I have been playing with a friends equipment.
"What is GPS-RTK"
<https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/what-is-gps-rtk/all>
"GNSS Flex pHAT and Modules" (5:02) <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-bhOLv4zsk>
The Sparkfun video includes a demo of "cm accuracy".
On 6/26/2025 10:47 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jun 2025 06:36:17 -0400, zen cycle
<[email protected]> wrote:
From the manual page 53:
"Using Auto Pause
You can use the Auto Pause feature to pause the timer automatically when >>> you stop moving or when your speed drops below a specified value. This
feature is helpful if your ride includes stop lights or other places
where you need to slow down or stop.
NOTE: History is not recorded while the timer is stopped or paused.
"
Thanks for the details. Methinks that's done to deal with the
position wandering when the GPS is not moving. When this happens
(weak signal, dense foliage, interference, etc), the GPS will indicate
a small movement (if I disable WAAS and only look at the GPS
constellation).
Maybe...the Garmins have an autopause speed threshold I believe of 2
MPH, with the auto start set to 6 (minimum, adjustable higher). The main >purpose of the function is to exclude stops (zeros) from being averaged
into the speed, but you may be right about wandering with the 6 MPH
start threshold. I'd imagine they have a significant amount of data that >shows 6 being good to exclude any movement by wandering under weak
satellite coverage. Just speculation on my part, I could be wrong (and >probably am).
"Movement or Distance Gained While Not Moving"
<https://support.garmin.com/en-HK/?faq=bahqpxKhZt69cgKIQaYGO7>
Drivel: This is overkill, but I've been looking into "cm accuracy"
using RTK (real time kinematics). It's probably useless for cycling,
but is very useful for surveying. I haven't bought any hardware yet,
but I have been playing with a friends equipment.
"What is GPS-RTK"
<https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/what-is-gps-rtk/all>
"GNSS Flex pHAT and Modules" (5:02)
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-bhOLv4zsk>
The Sparkfun video includes a demo of "cm accuracy".
On Wed Jun 25 16:19:09 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jun 2025 19:51:50 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
It is entirely different with a different operating system.
How can you tell? Do you have source code for the Garmin Edge product
line? What does "entirely different" mean to you? Is like the
difference between Windoze and Linux, or just a version number
difference?
Garmin GPS runs on GarminOS. 3rd party apps are written in MonkeyC,
which is actually a VM. GarminOS and MonkeyC are both proprietary to
Garmin with very little information available on the internet. Just
about everything Garmin sells was written in MonkeyC and runs on
GarminOS. Your claim that each Garmin product uses and "entirely
different operating system" is a good laugh. Have fun:
"Compromising Garmin?s Sport Watches: A Deep Dive into GarminOS and
its MonkeyC Virtual Machine"
<https://www.anvilsecure.com/blog/compromising-garmins-sport-watches-a-deep-dive-into-garminos-and-its-monkeyc-virtual-machine.html>
"A Deep Dive Into GarminOS And Its MonkeyC Virtual Machine"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsqLb-l-TjA>
there is no spot in the 1030 manual that even mentions moving speed.
That's understandable. If you're not moving, your speed is always
zero.
I'm pretty sure that the Garmin shows speed and distance changes because the satelites are orgiting and the internal Garmin calcu;ation os a little too course for these large positional changes. It isn;t as it they are much but they do make a slightdifference in total distance ridden from ride to ride over the identical course.
On Thu Jun 26 06:36:17 2025 zen cycle wrote:Snips
On 6/25/2025 7:19 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jun 2025 19:51:50 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
I don't remember the "fix" you explained to me. But the 1030 manual is
only 36 pages and the line items that show on the face of the 1030 are different from the 830. So I can hardly go to page 52.. But IO did find
an "autopause" line and turned autopause on for speeds less than 6 mph.
Now I have to test it. I'l do that on Saturday ride.
https://www.manualowl.com/m/Garmin/Edge-1030/Manual/611640
I don't remember the directions you gave me talking about autopause but moving average but with a screwed up memory who knows?
The 1030 reqested an operating system update the other days that took something like 30 minutes to install. It did not do the same thing with the 830.
The 830 wqas acting a little weird today. It kept adding elevation
despite the fact that I was riding alone the bay trail. It got all the
way up to 210 feet when it should have been reading around 30 feet (the tide was way out).
Hope you've recovered from your accident.
On 6/25/2025 6:39 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 4:00 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Mon Jun 23 13:32:57 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/23/2025 11:19 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
it's possible he's having trouble getting the moving average to display. >>>>>> he might need some guidance getting the datafield menu, but I'm done >>>>>> helping him.
I was suffering some irritation with my new cell phone. A 13-year-old >>>>> fixed it for me within minutes.
Tom should hire a 13-year-old.
Frank, are you saying that you don't know anything about a Garmin but
someone else should?
I have no interest in Garmins. But I'm saying _you_ don't know enough
about your Garmin, and that today's teenagers are often adept at
electronic devices and their menu systems.
But forget it. Figure it out yourself, while bitching that you are right >>> and the rest of the universe is wrong, as you usually do.
Indeed does seem to believe all sorts of things about the Garmin’s that a >> clearly not correct!
Personally they are handy for navigation, while I use maps (yes paper) to
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to tell me how
much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to achieve with
your Garmin. Training for your next race?
plot a route a device that can keep one on that route, this sort of thing
is much less with roads, which are by some degree easier to navigate.
There was a movie called Hard Miles that came out a few years ago
starring Mattew Modine. The IMDB synopsis reads:
"A prison social worker assembles a cycling team of teenage convicts and takes them on a transformative 1,000-mile ride. Inspired by the life of
Greg Townsend and the Ridgeview Academy cycling team."
I saw it in the theater when it came out. I gave it a solid B/B+,
partially since it did a reasonable job in the technical aspects, but it
was a good movie overall with a very positive message.
The relevant point to my response, was when Modine's character was
teaching the kids how to read a map - which they would need since they weren't' going to be allowed to bring cellphones on the trip.
One of the teenagers suggested they avoid a city center since the map
had the roads shown in red, meaning they had a lot of traffic. The interaction between the two about how a paper map could possibly be
updated in real time was hilarious.
I do use Strava etc for the social and so on aspect.
And I do prefer Strava route builder over others particularly as I do ride >> routes less traveled so that’s always useful.
Roger Merriman
But the 1030 manual is only 36 pages and the line items that show on the face of the 1030 are different from the 830.
On Wed Jun 25 16:19:09 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jun 2025 19:51:50 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
It is entirely different with a different operating system.
How can you tell? Do you have source code for the Garmin Edge product
line? What does "entirely different" mean to you? Is like the
difference between Windoze and Linux, or just a version number
difference?
Garmin GPS runs on GarminOS. 3rd party apps are written in MonkeyC,
which is actually a VM. GarminOS and MonkeyC are both proprietary to
Garmin with very little information available on the internet. Just
about everything Garmin sells was written in MonkeyC and runs on
GarminOS. Your claim that each Garmin product uses and "entirely
different operating system" is a good laugh. Have fun:
"Compromising Garmin?s Sport Watches: A Deep Dive into GarminOS and
its MonkeyC Virtual Machine"
<https://www.anvilsecure.com/blog/compromising-garmins-sport-watches-a-deep-dive-into-garminos-and-its-monkeyc-virtual-machine.html>
"A Deep Dive Into GarminOS And Its MonkeyC Virtual Machine"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsqLb-l-TjA>
there is no spot in the 1030 manual that even mentions moving speed.
That's understandable. If you're not moving, your speed is always
zero.
I'm pretty sure that the Garmin shows speed and distance changes because the satelites are orgiting and the internal Garmin calcu;ation os a little too course for these large positional changes. It isn;t as it they are much but they do make a slightdifference in total distance ridden from ride to ride over the identical course.
Zen Cycle <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 6:39 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:To be fair that�s one feature Strava has which is one can see if anyone has >used a segment and this year/month/week to gauge does this exist on the >ground and is it rideable? Names occasionally give the name away, segments >named Bramble tunnel for example I might avoid!
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 4:00 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Mon Jun 23 13:32:57 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/23/2025 11:19 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
it's possible he's having trouble getting the moving average to display.
he might need some guidance getting the datafield menu, but I'm done >>>>>>> helping him.
I was suffering some irritation with my new cell phone. A 13-year-old >>>>>> fixed it for me within minutes.
Tom should hire a 13-year-old.
Frank, are you saying that you don't know anything about a Garmin but >>>>> someone else should?
I have no interest in Garmins. But I'm saying _you_ don't know enough
about your Garmin, and that today's teenagers are often adept at
electronic devices and their menu systems.
But forget it. Figure it out yourself, while bitching that you are right >>>> and the rest of the universe is wrong, as you usually do.
Indeed does seem to believe all sorts of things about the Garmin�s that a >>> clearly not correct!
Personally they are handy for navigation, while I use maps (yes paper) to >>> plot a route a device that can keep one on that route, this sort of thing >>> is much less with roads, which are by some degree easier to navigate.
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to tell me how
much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to achieve with
your Garmin. Training for your next race?
There was a movie called Hard Miles that came out a few years ago
starring Mattew Modine. The IMDB synopsis reads:
"A prison social worker assembles a cycling team of teenage convicts and
takes them on a transformative 1,000-mile ride. Inspired by the life of
Greg Townsend and the Ridgeview Academy cycling team."
I saw it in the theater when it came out. I gave it a solid B/B+,
partially since it did a reasonable job in the technical aspects, but it
was a good movie overall with a very positive message.
The relevant point to my response, was when Modine's character was
teaching the kids how to read a map - which they would need since they
weren't' going to be allowed to bring cellphones on the trip.
One of the teenagers suggested they avoid a city center since the map
had the roads shown in red, meaning they had a lot of traffic. The
interaction between the two about how a paper map could possibly be
updated in real time was hilarious.
Ie that there is a right of way is one thing but is it possible to ride it? >The paper maps can�t tell me, sometimes I can be fairly sure for example
some of the rarely used stuff on the Ridgeway is open land so be passable.
Roger Merriman
I do use Strava etc for the social and so on aspect.
And I do prefer Strava route builder over others particularly as I do ride >>> routes less traveled so that�s always useful.
Roger Merriman
On 27 Jun 2025 00:11:21 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
Zen Cycle <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 6:39 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:To be fair thats one feature Strava has which is one can see if anyone has >> used a segment and this year/month/week to gauge does this exist on the
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 4:00 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Mon Jun 23 13:32:57 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/23/2025 11:19 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
it's possible he's having trouble getting the moving average to display.
he might need some guidance getting the datafield menu, but I'm done >>>>>>>> helping him.
I was suffering some irritation with my new cell phone. A 13-year-old >>>>>>> fixed it for me within minutes.
Tom should hire a 13-year-old.
Frank, are you saying that you don't know anything about a Garmin but >>>>>> someone else should?
I have no interest in Garmins. But I'm saying _you_ don't know enough >>>>> about your Garmin, and that today's teenagers are often adept at
electronic devices and their menu systems.
But forget it. Figure it out yourself, while bitching that you are right >>>>> and the rest of the universe is wrong, as you usually do.
Indeed does seem to believe all sorts of things about the Garmins that a >>>> clearly not correct!
Personally they are handy for navigation, while I use maps (yes paper) to >>>> plot a route a device that can keep one on that route, this sort of thing >>>> is much less with roads, which are by some degree easier to navigate.
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to tell me how >>>>> much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to achieve with >>>>> your Garmin. Training for your next race?
There was a movie called Hard Miles that came out a few years ago
starring Mattew Modine. The IMDB synopsis reads:
"A prison social worker assembles a cycling team of teenage convicts and >>> takes them on a transformative 1,000-mile ride. Inspired by the life of
Greg Townsend and the Ridgeview Academy cycling team."
I saw it in the theater when it came out. I gave it a solid B/B+,
partially since it did a reasonable job in the technical aspects, but it >>> was a good movie overall with a very positive message.
The relevant point to my response, was when Modine's character was
teaching the kids how to read a map - which they would need since they
weren't' going to be allowed to bring cellphones on the trip.
One of the teenagers suggested they avoid a city center since the map
had the roads shown in red, meaning they had a lot of traffic. The
interaction between the two about how a paper map could possibly be
updated in real time was hilarious.
ground and is it rideable? Names occasionally give the name away, segments >> named Bramble tunnel for example I might avoid!
Ie that there is a right of way is one thing but is it possible to ride it? >> The paper maps cant tell me, sometimes I can be fairly sure for example
some of the rarely used stuff on the Ridgeway is open land so be passable. >>>
Roger Merriman
I do use Strava etc for the social and so on aspect.
And I do prefer Strava route builder over others particularly as I do ride >>>> routes less traveled so thats always useful.
Roger Merriman
I haven't looked at a paper map for decades. I'm surprised that they
still make them.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
On Thu, 26 Jun 2025 19:31:42 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Wed Jun 25 16:19:09 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jun 2025 19:51:50 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
It is entirely different with a different operating system.
How can you tell? Do you have source code for the Garmin Edge product
line? What does "entirely different" mean to you? Is like the
difference between Windoze and Linux, or just a version number
difference?
Garmin GPS runs on GarminOS. 3rd party apps are written in MonkeyC,
which is actually a VM. GarminOS and MonkeyC are both proprietary to
Garmin with very little information available on the internet. Just
about everything Garmin sells was written in MonkeyC and runs on
GarminOS. Your claim that each Garmin product uses and "entirely
different operating system" is a good laugh. Have fun:
"Compromising Garmin?s Sport Watches: A Deep Dive into GarminOS and
its MonkeyC Virtual Machine"
<https://www.anvilsecure.com/blog/compromising-garmins-sport-watches-a-deep-dive-into-garminos-and-its-monkeyc-virtual-machine.html>
"A Deep Dive Into GarminOS And Its MonkeyC Virtual Machine"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsqLb-l-TjA>
there is no spot in the 1030 manual that even mentions moving speed.
That's understandable. If you're not moving, your speed is always
zero.
I'm pretty sure that the Garmin shows speed and distance changes because
the satelites are orgiting and the internal Garmin calcu;ation os a
little too course for these large positional changes. It isn;t as it
they are much but they do make a slight difference in total distance
ridden from ride to ride over the identical course.
I'm absolutely sure all that makes no sense. I suggest you take a
blood alcohol breath test before posting. <https://www.google.com/search?q=blood%20alcohol%20breath%20tester&udm=2
Have you ever followed the same track twice and obtained exactly the
same distance?
cyclintom <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu Jun 26 06:36:17 2025 zen cycle wrote:Snips
On 6/25/2025 7:19 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jun 2025 19:51:50 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
I don't remember the "fix" you explained to me. But the 1030 manual is
only 36 pages and the line items that show on the face of the 1030 are
different from the 830. So I can hardly go to page 52.. But IO did find
an "autopause" line and turned autopause on for speeds less than 6 mph.
Now I have to test it. I'l do that on Saturday ride.
https://www.manualowl.com/m/Garmin/Edge-1030/Manual/611640
I don't remember the directions you gave me talking about autopause but
moving average but with a screwed up memory who knows?
The 1030 reqested an operating system update the other days that took
something like 30 minutes to install. It did not do the same thing with the 830.
They both haven’t had an update since early 2023, look at the version number and its date.
The 830 wqas acting a little weird today. It kept adding elevation
despite the fact that I was riding alone the bay trail. It got all the
way up to 210 feet when it should have been reading around 30 feet (the tide was way out).
Air pressure changing maybe such a storm can do that, I’ve had that in the past, in a certain way it’s feature not a bug, was corrected by Strava I think but certainly interesting watching the height drop away as the
pressure dropped.
Roger Merriman
Hope you've recovered from your accident.
On 27 Jun 2025 00:11:21 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
Zen Cycle <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 6:39 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:To be fair that’s one feature Strava has which is one can see if anyone has
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 4:00 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Mon Jun 23 13:32:57 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/23/2025 11:19 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
it's possible he's having trouble getting the moving average to display.
he might need some guidance getting the datafield menu, but I'm done >>>>>>>> helping him.
I was suffering some irritation with my new cell phone. A 13-year-old >>>>>>> fixed it for me within minutes.
Tom should hire a 13-year-old.
Frank, are you saying that you don't know anything about a Garmin but >>>>>> someone else should?
I have no interest in Garmins. But I'm saying _you_ don't know enough >>>>> about your Garmin, and that today's teenagers are often adept at
electronic devices and their menu systems.
But forget it. Figure it out yourself, while bitching that you are right >>>>> and the rest of the universe is wrong, as you usually do.
Indeed does seem to believe all sorts of things about the Garmin’s that a
clearly not correct!
Personally they are handy for navigation, while I use maps (yes paper) to >>>> plot a route a device that can keep one on that route, this sort of thing >>>> is much less with roads, which are by some degree easier to navigate.
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to tell me how >>>>> much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to achieve with >>>>> your Garmin. Training for your next race?
There was a movie called Hard Miles that came out a few years ago
starring Mattew Modine. The IMDB synopsis reads:
"A prison social worker assembles a cycling team of teenage convicts and >>> takes them on a transformative 1,000-mile ride. Inspired by the life of
Greg Townsend and the Ridgeview Academy cycling team."
I saw it in the theater when it came out. I gave it a solid B/B+,
partially since it did a reasonable job in the technical aspects, but it >>> was a good movie overall with a very positive message.
The relevant point to my response, was when Modine's character was
teaching the kids how to read a map - which they would need since they
weren't' going to be allowed to bring cellphones on the trip.
One of the teenagers suggested they avoid a city center since the map
had the roads shown in red, meaning they had a lot of traffic. The
interaction between the two about how a paper map could possibly be
updated in real time was hilarious.
used a segment and this year/month/week to gauge does this exist on the
ground and is it rideable? Names occasionally give the name away, segments >> named Bramble tunnel for example I might avoid!
Ie that there is a right of way is one thing but is it possible to ride it? >> The paper maps can’t tell me, sometimes I can be fairly sure for example >> some of the rarely used stuff on the Ridgeway is open land so be passable. >>>
Roger Merriman
I do use Strava etc for the social and so on aspect.
And I do prefer Strava route builder over others particularly as I do ride >>>> routes less traveled so that’s always useful.
Roger Merriman
I haven't looked at a paper map for decades. I'm surprised that they
still make them.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 00:11:21 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:Note the maps I’m talking about are UK Ordance Survey so their focus is for land and rights of way, way beyond tarmac roads, they do have digital download which is handy, as a mobile is generally more waterproof and
Zen Cycle <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 6:39 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:To be fair thats one feature Strava has which is one can see if anyone has
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:There was a movie called Hard Miles that came out a few years ago
On 6/25/2025 4:00 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Mon Jun 23 13:32:57 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/23/2025 11:19 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
it's possible he's having trouble getting the moving average to display.
he might need some guidance getting the datafield menu, but I'm done >>>>>>>>> helping him.
I was suffering some irritation with my new cell phone. A 13-year-old >>>>>>>> fixed it for me within minutes.
Tom should hire a 13-year-old.
Frank, are you saying that you don't know anything about a Garmin but >>>>>>> someone else should?
I have no interest in Garmins. But I'm saying _you_ don't know enough >>>>>> about your Garmin, and that today's teenagers are often adept at
electronic devices and their menu systems.
But forget it. Figure it out yourself, while bitching that you are right >>>>>> and the rest of the universe is wrong, as you usually do.
Indeed does seem to believe all sorts of things about the Garmins that a
clearly not correct!
Personally they are handy for navigation, while I use maps (yes paper) to >>>>> plot a route a device that can keep one on that route, this sort of thing >>>>> is much less with roads, which are by some degree easier to navigate. >>>>
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to tell me how >>>>>> much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to achieve with >>>>>> your Garmin. Training for your next race?
starring Mattew Modine. The IMDB synopsis reads:
"A prison social worker assembles a cycling team of teenage convicts and >>>> takes them on a transformative 1,000-mile ride. Inspired by the life of >>>> Greg Townsend and the Ridgeview Academy cycling team."
I saw it in the theater when it came out. I gave it a solid B/B+,
partially since it did a reasonable job in the technical aspects, but it >>>> was a good movie overall with a very positive message.
The relevant point to my response, was when Modine's character was
teaching the kids how to read a map - which they would need since they >>>> weren't' going to be allowed to bring cellphones on the trip.
One of the teenagers suggested they avoid a city center since the map
had the roads shown in red, meaning they had a lot of traffic. The
interaction between the two about how a paper map could possibly be
updated in real time was hilarious.
used a segment and this year/month/week to gauge does this exist on the
ground and is it rideable? Names occasionally give the name away, segments >>> named Bramble tunnel for example I might avoid!
Ie that there is a right of way is one thing but is it possible to ride it? >>> The paper maps cant tell me, sometimes I can be fairly sure for example >>> some of the rarely used stuff on the Ridgeway is open land so be passable. >>>>
Roger Merriman
I do use Strava etc for the social and so on aspect.
And I do prefer Strava route builder over others particularly as I do ride
routes less traveled so thats always useful.
Roger Merriman
I haven't looked at a paper map for decades. I'm surprised that they
still make them.
easier to carry.
Google maps and similar will do little in such areas.
--Roger Merriman
C'est bon
Soloman
On Thu, 26 Jun 2025 19:31:42 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>difference in total distance ridden from ride to ride over the identical course.
wrote:
On Wed Jun 25 16:19:09 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jun 2025 19:51:50 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
It is entirely different with a different operating system.
How can you tell? Do you have source code for the Garmin Edge product
line? What does "entirely different" mean to you? Is like the
difference between Windoze and Linux, or just a version number
difference?
Garmin GPS runs on GarminOS. 3rd party apps are written in MonkeyC,
which is actually a VM. GarminOS and MonkeyC are both proprietary to
Garmin with very little information available on the internet. Just
about everything Garmin sells was written in MonkeyC and runs on
GarminOS. Your claim that each Garmin product uses and "entirely
different operating system" is a good laugh. Have fun:
"Compromising Garmin?s Sport Watches: A Deep Dive into GarminOS and
its MonkeyC Virtual Machine"
<https://www.anvilsecure.com/blog/compromising-garmins-sport-watches-a-deep-dive-into-garminos-and-its-monkeyc-virtual-machine.html>
"A Deep Dive Into GarminOS And Its MonkeyC Virtual Machine"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsqLb-l-TjA>
there is no spot in the 1030 manual that even mentions moving speed.
That's understandable. If you're not moving, your speed is always
zero.
I'm pretty sure that the Garmin shows speed and distance changes because the satelites are orgiting and the internal Garmin calcu;ation os a little too course for these large positional changes. It isn;t as it they are much but they do make a slight
I'm absolutely sure all that makes no sense. I suggest you take a
blood alcohol breath test before posting. <https://www.google.com/search?q=blood%20alcohol%20breath%20tester&udm=2
Have you ever followed the same track twice and obtained exactly the
same distance?
On 6/27/2025 3:01 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 00:11:21 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
Zen Cycle <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 6:39 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:To be fair that�s one feature Strava has which is one can see if anyone has >>> used a segment and this year/month/week to gauge does this exist on the
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:There was a movie called Hard Miles that came out a few years ago
On 6/25/2025 4:00 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Mon Jun 23 13:32:57 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/23/2025 11:19 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
it's possible he's having trouble getting the moving average to display.
he might need some guidance getting the datafield menu, but I'm done >>>>>>>>> helping him.
I was suffering some irritation with my new cell phone. A 13-year-old >>>>>>>> fixed it for me within minutes.
Tom should hire a 13-year-old.
Frank, are you saying that you don't know anything about a Garmin but >>>>>>> someone else should?
I have no interest in Garmins. But I'm saying _you_ don't know enough >>>>>> about your Garmin, and that today's teenagers are often adept at
electronic devices and their menu systems.
But forget it. Figure it out yourself, while bitching that you are right >>>>>> and the rest of the universe is wrong, as you usually do.
Indeed does seem to believe all sorts of things about the Garmin�s that a >>>>> clearly not correct!
Personally they are handy for navigation, while I use maps (yes paper) to >>>>> plot a route a device that can keep one on that route, this sort of thing >>>>> is much less with roads, which are by some degree easier to navigate. >>>>
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to tell me how >>>>>> much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to achieve with >>>>>> your Garmin. Training for your next race?
starring Mattew Modine. The IMDB synopsis reads:
"A prison social worker assembles a cycling team of teenage convicts and >>>> takes them on a transformative 1,000-mile ride. Inspired by the life of >>>> Greg Townsend and the Ridgeview Academy cycling team."
I saw it in the theater when it came out. I gave it a solid B/B+,
partially since it did a reasonable job in the technical aspects, but it >>>> was a good movie overall with a very positive message.
The relevant point to my response, was when Modine's character was
teaching the kids how to read a map - which they would need since they >>>> weren't' going to be allowed to bring cellphones on the trip.
One of the teenagers suggested they avoid a city center since the map
had the roads shown in red, meaning they had a lot of traffic. The
interaction between the two about how a paper map could possibly be
updated in real time was hilarious.
ground and is it rideable? Names occasionally give the name away, segments >>> named Bramble tunnel for example I might avoid!
Ie that there is a right of way is one thing but is it possible to ride it? >>> The paper maps can�t tell me, sometimes I can be fairly sure for example >>> some of the rarely used stuff on the Ridgeway is open land so be passable. >>>>
Roger Merriman
I do use Strava etc for the social and so on aspect.
And I do prefer Strava route builder over others particularly as I do ride
routes less traveled so that�s always useful.
Roger Merriman
I haven't looked at a paper map for decades. I'm surprised that they
still make them.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
I do.
For Wisconsin, the Milwaukee Maps Service quadrant maps show
every county road with road names clearly, which is
difficult for online maps.
https://shop.milwaukeemap.com/regional-3
Jeff Liebermann <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jun 2025 19:31:42 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Wed Jun 25 16:19:09 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jun 2025 19:51:50 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
It is entirely different with a different operating system.
How can you tell? Do you have source code for the Garmin Edge product >>> line? What does "entirely different" mean to you? Is like the
difference between Windoze and Linux, or just a version number
difference?
Garmin GPS runs on GarminOS. 3rd party apps are written in MonkeyC,
which is actually a VM. GarminOS and MonkeyC are both proprietary to
Garmin with very little information available on the internet. Just
about everything Garmin sells was written in MonkeyC and runs on
GarminOS. Your claim that each Garmin product uses and "entirely
different operating system" is a good laugh. Have fun:
"Compromising Garmin?s Sport Watches: A Deep Dive into GarminOS and
its MonkeyC Virtual Machine"
<https://www.anvilsecure.com/blog/compromising-garmins-sport-watches-a-deep-dive-into-garminos-and-its-monkeyc-virtual-machine.html>
"A Deep Dive Into GarminOS And Its MonkeyC Virtual Machine"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsqLb-l-TjA>
there is no spot in the 1030 manual that even mentions moving speed.
That's understandable. If you're not moving, your speed is always
zero.
I'm pretty sure that the Garmin shows speed and distance changes because >> the satelites are orgiting and the internal Garmin calcu;ation os a
little too course for these large positional changes. It isn;t as it
they are much but they do make a slight difference in total distance
ridden from ride to ride over the identical course.
I'm absolutely sure all that makes no sense. I suggest you take a
blood alcohol breath test before posting. <https://www.google.com/search?q=blood%20alcohol%20breath%20tester&udm=2
Have you ever followed the same track twice and obtained exactly the
same distance?
He was obsessed that the airport was making his Garmin data drift a while back, note my commute using the same unit a Garmin edge 830 was absolutely fine though or around Heathrow.
Aka this is a Tom thing as ever.
On 6/27/2025 3:01 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 00:11:21 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
Zen Cycle <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 6:39 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:To be fair that?s one feature Strava has which is one can see if anyone has
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:There was a movie called Hard Miles that came out a few years ago
On 6/25/2025 4:00 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Mon Jun 23 13:32:57 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/23/2025 11:19 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
it's possible he's having trouble getting the moving average to display.
he might need some guidance getting the datafield menu, but I'm done >>>>>>>> helping him.
I was suffering some irritation with my new cell phone. A 13-year-old >>>>>>> fixed it for me within minutes.
Tom should hire a 13-year-old.
Frank, are you saying that you don't know anything about a Garmin but >>>>>> someone else should?
I have no interest in Garmins. But I'm saying _you_ don't know enough >>>>> about your Garmin, and that today's teenagers are often adept at
electronic devices and their menu systems.
But forget it. Figure it out yourself, while bitching that you are right
and the rest of the universe is wrong, as you usually do.
Indeed does seem to believe all sorts of things about the Garmin?s that a
clearly not correct!
Personally they are handy for navigation, while I use maps (yes paper) to
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to tell me how >>>>> much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to achieve with >>>>> your Garmin. Training for your next race?
plot a route a device that can keep one on that route, this sort of thing
is much less with roads, which are by some degree easier to navigate. >>>
starring Mattew Modine. The IMDB synopsis reads:
"A prison social worker assembles a cycling team of teenage convicts and >>> takes them on a transformative 1,000-mile ride. Inspired by the life of >>> Greg Townsend and the Ridgeview Academy cycling team."
I saw it in the theater when it came out. I gave it a solid B/B+,
partially since it did a reasonable job in the technical aspects, but it >>> was a good movie overall with a very positive message.
The relevant point to my response, was when Modine's character was
teaching the kids how to read a map - which they would need since they >>> weren't' going to be allowed to bring cellphones on the trip.
One of the teenagers suggested they avoid a city center since the map
had the roads shown in red, meaning they had a lot of traffic. The
interaction between the two about how a paper map could possibly be
updated in real time was hilarious.
used a segment and this year/month/week to gauge does this exist on the
ground and is it rideable? Names occasionally give the name away, segments >> named Bramble tunnel for example I might avoid!
Ie that there is a right of way is one thing but is it possible to ride it?
The paper maps can?t tell me, sometimes I can be fairly sure for example >> some of the rarely used stuff on the Ridgeway is open land so be passable. >>>
Roger Merriman
I do use Strava etc for the social and so on aspect.
And I do prefer Strava route builder over others particularly as I do ride
routes less traveled so that?s always useful.
Roger Merriman
I haven't looked at a paper map for decades. I'm surprised that they
still make them.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
I do.
For Wisconsin, the Milwaukee Maps Service quadrant maps show
every county road with road names clearly, which is
difficult for online maps.
https://shop.milwaukeemap.com/regional-3
On 6/26/2025 8:57 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:difference in total distance ridden from ride to ride over the identical course.
On Thu, 26 Jun 2025 19:31:42 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Wed Jun 25 16:19:09 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jun 2025 19:51:50 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
It is entirely different with a different operating system.
How can you tell? Do you have source code for the Garmin Edge product >>> line? What does "entirely different" mean to you? Is like the
difference between Windoze and Linux, or just a version number
difference?
Garmin GPS runs on GarminOS. 3rd party apps are written in MonkeyC,
which is actually a VM. GarminOS and MonkeyC are both proprietary to
Garmin with very little information available on the internet. Just
about everything Garmin sells was written in MonkeyC and runs on
GarminOS. Your claim that each Garmin product uses and "entirely
different operating system" is a good laugh. Have fun:
"Compromising Garmin?s Sport Watches: A Deep Dive into GarminOS and
its MonkeyC Virtual Machine"
<https://www.anvilsecure.com/blog/compromising-garmins-sport-watches-a-deep-dive-into-garminos-and-its-monkeyc-virtual-machine.html>
"A Deep Dive Into GarminOS And Its MonkeyC Virtual Machine"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsqLb-l-TjA>
there is no spot in the 1030 manual that even mentions moving speed.
That's understandable. If you're not moving, your speed is always
zero.
I'm pretty sure that the Garmin shows speed and distance changes because the satelites are orgiting and the internal Garmin calcu;ation os a little too course for these large positional changes. It isn;t as it they are much but they do make a slight
I'm absolutely sure all that makes no sense. I suggest you take a
blood alcohol breath test before posting. <https://www.google.com/search?q=blood%20alcohol%20breath%20tester&udm=2
Have you ever followed the same track twice and obtained exactly the
same distance?
my ~20 mile commutes will track within .5 miles from day to day.
cyclintom <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu Jun 26 06:36:17 2025 zen cycle wrote:Snips
On 6/25/2025 7:19 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jun 2025 19:51:50 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
I don't remember the "fix" you explained to me. But the 1030 manual is
only 36 pages and the line items that show on the face of the 1030 are different from the 830. So I can hardly go to page 52.. But IO did find
an "autopause" line and turned autopause on for speeds less than 6 mph.
Now I have to test it. I'l do that on Saturday ride.
https://www.manualowl.com/m/Garmin/Edge-1030/Manual/611640
I don't remember the directions you gave me talking about autopause but moving average but with a screwed up memory who knows?
The 1030 reqested an operating system update the other days that took something like 30 minutes to install. It did not do the same thing with the 830.
They both haven?t had an update since early 2023, look at the version
number and its date.
The 830 wqas acting a little weird today. It kept adding elevation
despite the fact that I was riding alone the bay trail. It got all the
way up to 210 feet when it should have been reading around 30 feet (the tide was way out).
Air pressure changing maybe such a storm can do that, I?ve had that in the past, in a certain way it?s feature not a bug, was corrected by Strava I think but certainly interesting watching the height drop away as the
pressure dropped.
Hope you've recovered from your accident.
Maybe...the Garmins have an autopause speed threshold I believe of 2
MPH, with the auto start set to 6 (minimum, adjustable higher). The main purpose of the function is to exclude stops (zeros) from being averaged
into the speed, but you may be right about wandering with the 6 MPH
start threshold. I'd imagine they have a significant amount of data that shows 6 being good to exclude any movement by wandering under weak
satellite coverage. Just speculation on my part, I could be wrong (and probably am).
On Thu, 26 Jun 2025 19:24:36 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
But the 1030 manual is only 36 pages and the line items that show on the face of the 1030 are different from the 830.
That's easy. You found the wrong manual. From Garmin's web site,
these Edge 1030 user manuals are both 78 pages long.
(PDF) <https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/edge1030/EN-US/Edge_1030_OM_EN-US.pdf>
(Web) <https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/edge1030/EN-US/GUID-1BF915A2-AAE3-4B67-83EB-54A450FCB1A5-homepage.html>
On 6/27/2025 4:37 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 00:11:21 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:Note the maps I?m talking about are UK Ordance Survey so their focus is for land and rights of way, way beyond tarmac roads, they do have digital download which is handy, as a mobile is generally more waterproof and easier to carry.
Zen Cycle <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 6:39 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:To be fair that s one feature Strava has which is one can see if anyone has
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:There was a movie called Hard Miles that came out a few years ago
On 6/25/2025 4:00 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Mon Jun 23 13:32:57 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/23/2025 11:19 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
it's possible he's having trouble getting the moving average to display.
he might need some guidance getting the datafield menu, but I'm done
helping him.
I was suffering some irritation with my new cell phone. A 13-year-old
fixed it for me within minutes.
Tom should hire a 13-year-old.
Frank, are you saying that you don't know anything about a Garmin but >>>>>>> someone else should?
I have no interest in Garmins. But I'm saying _you_ don't know enough >>>>>> about your Garmin, and that today's teenagers are often adept at >>>>>> electronic devices and their menu systems.
But forget it. Figure it out yourself, while bitching that you are right
and the rest of the universe is wrong, as you usually do.
Indeed does seem to believe all sorts of things about the Garmin s that a
clearly not correct!
Personally they are handy for navigation, while I use maps (yes paper) to
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to tell me how >>>>>> much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to achieve with >>>>>> your Garmin. Training for your next race?
plot a route a device that can keep one on that route, this sort of thing
is much less with roads, which are by some degree easier to navigate. >>>>
starring Mattew Modine. The IMDB synopsis reads:
"A prison social worker assembles a cycling team of teenage convicts and >>>> takes them on a transformative 1,000-mile ride. Inspired by the life of >>>> Greg Townsend and the Ridgeview Academy cycling team."
I saw it in the theater when it came out. I gave it a solid B/B+,
partially since it did a reasonable job in the technical aspects, but it >>>> was a good movie overall with a very positive message.
The relevant point to my response, was when Modine's character was
teaching the kids how to read a map - which they would need since they >>>> weren't' going to be allowed to bring cellphones on the trip.
One of the teenagers suggested they avoid a city center since the map >>>> had the roads shown in red, meaning they had a lot of traffic. The
interaction between the two about how a paper map could possibly be
updated in real time was hilarious.
used a segment and this year/month/week to gauge does this exist on the >>> ground and is it rideable? Names occasionally give the name away, segments
named Bramble tunnel for example I might avoid!
Ie that there is a right of way is one thing but is it possible to ride it?
The paper maps can t tell me, sometimes I can be fairly sure for example
some of the rarely used stuff on the Ridgeway is open land so be passable.
Roger Merriman
I do use Strava etc for the social and so on aspect.
And I do prefer Strava route builder over others particularly as I do ride
routes less traveled so that s always useful.
Roger Merriman
I haven't looked at a paper map for decades. I'm surprised that they
still make them.
Google maps and similar will do little in such areas.
--Roger Merriman
C'est bon
Soloman
My experience as well. Good mapmakers are a wonderful resource.
On Fri Jun 27 09:37:07 2025 Roger Merriman wrote:
Jeff Liebermann <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jun 2025 19:31:42 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Wed Jun 25 16:19:09 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jun 2025 19:51:50 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
It is entirely different with a different operating system.
How can you tell? Do you have source code for the Garmin Edge product >>>>> line? What does "entirely different" mean to you? Is like the
difference between Windoze and Linux, or just a version number
difference?
Garmin GPS runs on GarminOS. 3rd party apps are written in MonkeyC, >>>>> which is actually a VM. GarminOS and MonkeyC are both proprietary to >>>>> Garmin with very little information available on the internet. Just >>>>> about everything Garmin sells was written in MonkeyC and runs on
GarminOS. Your claim that each Garmin product uses and "entirely
different operating system" is a good laugh. Have fun:
"Compromising Garmin?s Sport Watches: A Deep Dive into GarminOS and
its MonkeyC Virtual Machine"
<https://www.anvilsecure.com/blog/compromising-garmins-sport-watches-a-deep-dive-into-garminos-and-its-monkeyc-virtual-machine.html>
"A Deep Dive Into GarminOS And Its MonkeyC Virtual Machine"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsqLb-l-TjA>
there is no spot in the 1030 manual that even mentions moving speed. >>>>>That's understandable. If you're not moving, your speed is always
zero.
I'm pretty sure that the Garmin shows speed and distance changes because >>>> the satelites are orgiting and the internal Garmin calcu;ation os a
little too course for these large positional changes. It isn;t as it
they are much but they do make a slight difference in total distance
ridden from ride to ride over the identical course.
I'm absolutely sure all that makes no sense. I suggest you take a
blood alcohol breath test before posting.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=blood%20alcohol%20breath%20tester&udm=2 >>>
Have you ever followed the same track twice and obtained exactly the
same distance?
He was obsessed that the airport was making his Garmin data drift a while
back, note my commute using the same unit a Garmin edge 830 was absolutely >> fine though or around Heathrow.
Aka this is a Tom thing as ever.
It is a GPS thing. While on GPS, faifly long rides have shown as much as
3 or 4 miles variance. If I include distance sensors, it reports nearly
the same milage over the same course allowing a slight deviation for the wandering back and forth on the trail. Frankly I cannot believe that you haven't seen this. Try actually keeping track of your milage without a wheel sesor.
On 6/27/2025 8:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/27/2025 4:37 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 00:11:21 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:Note the maps I�m talking about are UK Ordance Survey so their focus
Zen Cycle <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 6:39 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:To be fair that?s one feature Strava has which is one can see if
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:There was a movie called Hard Miles that came out a few years ago
On 6/25/2025 4:00 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Mon Jun 23 13:32:57 2025 Frank Krygowski� wrote:
On 6/23/2025 11:19 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
it's possible he's having trouble getting the moving average >>>>>>>>>>> to display.
he might need some guidance getting the datafield menu, but >>>>>>>>>>> I'm done
helping him.
I was suffering some irritation with my new cell phone. A 13- >>>>>>>>>> year-old
fixed it for me within minutes.
Tom should hire a 13-year-old.
Frank, are you saying that you don't know anything about a
Garmin but
someone else should?
I have no interest in Garmins. But I'm saying _you_ don't know >>>>>>>> enough
about your Garmin, and that today's teenagers are often adept at >>>>>>>> electronic devices and their menu systems.
But forget it. Figure it out yourself, while bitching that you >>>>>>>> are right
and the rest of the universe is wrong, as you usually do.
Indeed does seem to believe all sorts of things about the Garmin?s >>>>>>> that a
clearly not correct!
Personally they are handy for navigation, while I use maps (yes
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to tell me >>>>>>>> how
much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to achieve with >>>>>>>> your Garmin. Training for your next race?
paper) to
plot a route a device that can keep one on that route, this sort >>>>>>> of thing
is much less with roads, which are by some degree easier to navigate. >>>>>>
starring Mattew Modine. The IMDB synopsis reads:
"A prison social worker assembles a cycling team of teenage
convicts and
takes them on a transformative 1,000-mile ride. Inspired by the
life of
Greg Townsend and the Ridgeview Academy cycling team."
I saw it in the theater when it came out. I gave it a solid B/B+,
partially since it did a reasonable job in the technical aspects,
but it
was a good movie overall with a very positive message.
The relevant point to my response, was when Modine's character was >>>>>> teaching the kids how to read a map - which they would need since they >>>>>> weren't' going to be allowed to bring cellphones on the trip.
One of the teenagers suggested they avoid a city center since the map >>>>>> had the roads shown in red, meaning they had a lot of traffic. The >>>>>> interaction between the two about how a paper map could possibly be >>>>>> updated in real time was hilarious.
anyone has
used a segment and this year/month/week to gauge does this exist on the >>>>> ground and is it rideable? Names occasionally give the name away,
segments
named Bramble tunnel for example I might avoid!
Ie that there is a right of way is one thing but is it possible to
ride it?
The paper maps can?t tell me, sometimes I can be fairly sure for
example
some of the rarely used stuff on the Ridgeway is open land so be
passable.
Roger Merriman
I do use Strava etc for the social and so on aspect.
And I do prefer Strava route builder over others particularly as I >>>>>>> do ride
routes less traveled so that?s always useful.
Roger Merriman
I haven't looked at a paper map for decades. I'm surprised that they
still make them.
is for
land and rights of way, way beyond tarmac roads, they do have digital
download which is handy, as a mobile is generally more waterproof and
easier to carry.
Google maps and similar will do little in such areas.
--Roger Merriman
C'est bon
Soloman
My experience as well.� Good mapmakers are a wonderful resource.
Heartily agreed! I love USGS maps, and I once had an article published
in _Bicycling_ explaining and praising them for bicycling, especially
for the contour data.
When a good friend or family member moves to a new location, I mount and >frame a 1:24000 series map of their location as a gift. If their place
is near an edge or corner, I include the adjacent maps, carefully fitted >together. I think the resulting wall hanging is quite beautiful.
On 6/27/2025 8:44 AM, AMuzi wrote:
For Wisconsin, the Milwaukee Maps Service quadrant maps
show every county road with road names clearly, which is
difficult for online maps.
https://shop.milwaukeemap.com/regional-3
DeLorme is a publisher that prints large scale "Atlas and
Gazetter" maps for most or all U.S. states: https:// randpublishing.com/delorme/
The Ohio version is at 1:150,000 scale (about 2.4 miles per
inch) and detailed enough to show every country road and
even many street names in tiny villages. I've used it
extensively planning several bike tours.
Most notable was a tour we did from the Ohio River to Lake
Erie, following the roads as close as possible to the route
of Ohio's first canal, the Ohio & Erie. In the southern half
of the state the canal is given very little recognition, so
it was hard to find the proper roads. I used DeLorme to find
things like "Canal Street" or "Lock Road" in small towns to
get clues.
That was a historically interesting tour. It was fun riding
along some quiet country road, then saying "Look! There's an
old canal lock over there in the woods!"
On 6/27/2025 8:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/27/2025 4:37 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 00:11:21 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:Note the maps I’m talking about are UK Ordance Survey so their focus
Zen Cycle <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 6:39 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:To be fair thats one feature Strava has which is one can see if
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:There was a movie called Hard Miles that came out a few years ago
On 6/25/2025 4:00 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Mon Jun 23 13:32:57 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/23/2025 11:19 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
it's possible he's having trouble getting the moving average >>>>>>>>>>> to display.
he might need some guidance getting the datafield menu, but >>>>>>>>>>> I'm done
helping him.
I was suffering some irritation with my new cell phone. A 13- >>>>>>>>>> year-old
fixed it for me within minutes.
Tom should hire a 13-year-old.
Frank, are you saying that you don't know anything about a
Garmin but
someone else should?
I have no interest in Garmins. But I'm saying _you_ don't know >>>>>>>> enough
about your Garmin, and that today's teenagers are often adept at >>>>>>>> electronic devices and their menu systems.
But forget it. Figure it out yourself, while bitching that you >>>>>>>> are right
and the rest of the universe is wrong, as you usually do.
Indeed does seem to believe all sorts of things about the Garmins >>>>>>> that a
clearly not correct!
Personally they are handy for navigation, while I use maps (yes
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to tell me >>>>>>>> how
much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to achieve with >>>>>>>> your Garmin. Training for your next race?
paper) to
plot a route a device that can keep one on that route, this sort >>>>>>> of thing
is much less with roads, which are by some degree easier to navigate. >>>>>>
starring Mattew Modine. The IMDB synopsis reads:
"A prison social worker assembles a cycling team of teenage
convicts and
takes them on a transformative 1,000-mile ride. Inspired by the
life of
Greg Townsend and the Ridgeview Academy cycling team."
I saw it in the theater when it came out. I gave it a solid B/B+,
partially since it did a reasonable job in the technical aspects,
but it
was a good movie overall with a very positive message.
The relevant point to my response, was when Modine's character was >>>>>> teaching the kids how to read a map - which they would need since they >>>>>> weren't' going to be allowed to bring cellphones on the trip.
One of the teenagers suggested they avoid a city center since the map >>>>>> had the roads shown in red, meaning they had a lot of traffic. The >>>>>> interaction between the two about how a paper map could possibly be >>>>>> updated in real time was hilarious.
anyone has
used a segment and this year/month/week to gauge does this exist on the >>>>> ground and is it rideable? Names occasionally give the name away,
segments
named Bramble tunnel for example I might avoid!
Ie that there is a right of way is one thing but is it possible to
ride it?
The paper maps cant tell me, sometimes I can be fairly sure for
example
some of the rarely used stuff on the Ridgeway is open land so be
passable.
Roger Merriman
I do use Strava etc for the social and so on aspect.
And I do prefer Strava route builder over others particularly as I >>>>>>> do ride
routes less traveled so thats always useful.
Roger Merriman
I haven't looked at a paper map for decades. I'm surprised that they
still make them.
is for
land and rights of way, way beyond tarmac roads, they do have digital
download which is handy, as a mobile is generally more waterproof and
easier to carry.
Google maps and similar will do little in such areas.
--Roger Merriman
C'est bon
Soloman
My experience as well. Good mapmakers are a wonderful resource.
Heartily agreed! I love USGS maps, and I once had an article published
in _Bicycling_ explaining and praising them for bicycling, especially
for the contour data.
When a good friend or family member moves to a new location, I mount and frame a 1:24000 series map of their location as a gift. If their place
is near an edge or corner, I include the adjacent maps, carefully fitted together. I think the resulting wall hanging is quite beautiful.
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/27/2025 8:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/27/2025 4:37 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 00:11:21 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>Note the maps I�m talking about are UK Ordance Survey so their focus
Zen Cycle <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 6:39 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:To be fair that?s one feature Strava has which is one can see if
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:There was a movie called Hard Miles that came out a few years ago >>>>>>> starring Mattew Modine. The IMDB synopsis reads:
On 6/25/2025 4:00 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Mon Jun 23 13:32:57 2025 Frank Krygowski� wrote:
On 6/23/2025 11:19 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
it's possible he's having trouble getting the moving average >>>>>>>>>>>> to display.
he might need some guidance getting the datafield menu, but >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm done
helping him.
I was suffering some irritation with my new cell phone. A 13- >>>>>>>>>>> year-old
fixed it for me within minutes.
Tom should hire a 13-year-old.
Frank, are you saying that you don't know anything about a >>>>>>>>>> Garmin but
someone else should?
I have no interest in Garmins. But I'm saying _you_ don't know >>>>>>>>> enough
about your Garmin, and that today's teenagers are often adept at >>>>>>>>> electronic devices and their menu systems.
But forget it. Figure it out yourself, while bitching that you >>>>>>>>> are right
and the rest of the universe is wrong, as you usually do.
Indeed does seem to believe all sorts of things about the Garmin?s >>>>>>>> that a
clearly not correct!
Personally they are handy for navigation, while I use maps (yes >>>>>>>> paper) to
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to tell me >>>>>>>>> how
much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to achieve with >>>>>>>>> your Garmin. Training for your next race?
plot a route a device that can keep one on that route, this sort >>>>>>>> of thing
is much less with roads, which are by some degree easier to navigate. >>>>>>>
"A prison social worker assembles a cycling team of teenage
convicts and
takes them on a transformative 1,000-mile ride. Inspired by the
life of
Greg Townsend and the Ridgeview Academy cycling team."
I saw it in the theater when it came out. I gave it a solid B/B+, >>>>>>> partially since it did a reasonable job in the technical aspects, >>>>>>> but it
was a good movie overall with a very positive message.
The relevant point to my response, was when Modine's character was >>>>>>> teaching the kids how to read a map - which they would need since they >>>>>>> weren't' going to be allowed to bring cellphones on the trip.
One of the teenagers suggested they avoid a city center since the map >>>>>>> had the roads shown in red, meaning they had a lot of traffic. The >>>>>>> interaction between the two about how a paper map could possibly be >>>>>>> updated in real time was hilarious.
anyone has
used a segment and this year/month/week to gauge does this exist on the >>>>>> ground and is it rideable? Names occasionally give the name away,
segments
named Bramble tunnel for example I might avoid!
Ie that there is a right of way is one thing but is it possible to >>>>>> ride it?
The paper maps can?t tell me, sometimes I can be fairly sure for
example
some of the rarely used stuff on the Ridgeway is open land so be
passable.
Roger Merriman
I do use Strava etc for the social and so on aspect.
And I do prefer Strava route builder over others particularly as I >>>>>>>> do ride
routes less traveled so that?s always useful.
Roger Merriman
I haven't looked at a paper map for decades. I'm surprised that they >>>>> still make them.
is for
land and rights of way, way beyond tarmac roads, they do have digital
download which is handy, as a mobile is generally more waterproof and
easier to carry.
Google maps and similar will do little in such areas.
--Roger Merriman
C'est bon
Soloman
My experience as well.� Good mapmakers are a wonderful resource.
Heartily agreed! I love USGS maps, and I once had an article published
in _Bicycling_ explaining and praising them for bicycling, especially
for the contour data.
When a good friend or family member moves to a new location, I mount and
frame a 1:24000 series map of their location as a gift. If their place
is near an edge or corner, I include the adjacent maps, carefully fitted
together. I think the resulting wall hanging is quite beautiful.
Uk Ordnance Survey you can buy them centred on your house etc, no digital >down load and so on but nevertheless fun.
I do also use the old online versions to find stuff that has disappeared,
and go for an explore.
Roger Merriman
On 27 Jun 2025 21:40:54 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/27/2025 8:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/27/2025 4:37 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 00:11:21 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>Note the maps Im talking about are UK Ordance Survey so their focus >>>>> is for
Zen Cycle <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 6:39 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:To be fair that?s one feature Strava has which is one can see if >>>>>>> anyone has
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:There was a movie called Hard Miles that came out a few years ago >>>>>>>> starring Mattew Modine. The IMDB synopsis reads:
On 6/25/2025 4:00 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Mon Jun 23 13:32:57 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/23/2025 11:19 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
it's possible he's having trouble getting the moving average >>>>>>>>>>>>> to display.
he might need some guidance getting the datafield menu, but >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm done
helping him.
I was suffering some irritation with my new cell phone. A 13- >>>>>>>>>>>> year-old
fixed it for me within minutes.
Tom should hire a 13-year-old.
Frank, are you saying that you don't know anything about a >>>>>>>>>>> Garmin but
someone else should?
I have no interest in Garmins. But I'm saying _you_ don't know >>>>>>>>>> enough
about your Garmin, and that today's teenagers are often adept at >>>>>>>>>> electronic devices and their menu systems.
But forget it. Figure it out yourself, while bitching that you >>>>>>>>>> are right
and the rest of the universe is wrong, as you usually do.
Indeed does seem to believe all sorts of things about the Garmin?s >>>>>>>>> that a
clearly not correct!
Personally they are handy for navigation, while I use maps (yes >>>>>>>>> paper) to
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to tell me >>>>>>>>>> how
much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to achieve with >>>>>>>>>> your Garmin. Training for your next race?
plot a route a device that can keep one on that route, this sort >>>>>>>>> of thing
is much less with roads, which are by some degree easier to navigate. >>>>>>>>
"A prison social worker assembles a cycling team of teenage
convicts and
takes them on a transformative 1,000-mile ride. Inspired by the >>>>>>>> life of
Greg Townsend and the Ridgeview Academy cycling team."
I saw it in the theater when it came out. I gave it a solid B/B+, >>>>>>>> partially since it did a reasonable job in the technical aspects, >>>>>>>> but it
was a good movie overall with a very positive message.
The relevant point to my response, was when Modine's character was >>>>>>>> teaching the kids how to read a map - which they would need since they >>>>>>>> weren't' going to be allowed to bring cellphones on the trip.
One of the teenagers suggested they avoid a city center since the map >>>>>>>> had the roads shown in red, meaning they had a lot of traffic. The >>>>>>>> interaction between the two about how a paper map could possibly be >>>>>>>> updated in real time was hilarious.
used a segment and this year/month/week to gauge does this exist on the >>>>>>> ground and is it rideable? Names occasionally give the name away, >>>>>>> segments
named Bramble tunnel for example I might avoid!
Ie that there is a right of way is one thing but is it possible to >>>>>>> ride it?
The paper maps can?t tell me, sometimes I can be fairly sure for >>>>>>> example
some of the rarely used stuff on the Ridgeway is open land so be >>>>>>> passable.
Roger Merriman
I do use Strava etc for the social and so on aspect.
And I do prefer Strava route builder over others particularly as I >>>>>>>>> do ride
routes less traveled so that?s always useful.
Roger Merriman
I haven't looked at a paper map for decades. I'm surprised that they >>>>>> still make them.
land and rights of way, way beyond tarmac roads, they do have digital >>>>> download which is handy, as a mobile is generally more waterproof and >>>>> easier to carry.
Google maps and similar will do little in such areas.
--Roger Merriman
C'est bon
Soloman
My experience as well. Good mapmakers are a wonderful resource.
Heartily agreed! I love USGS maps, and I once had an article published
in _Bicycling_ explaining and praising them for bicycling, especially
for the contour data.
When a good friend or family member moves to a new location, I mount and >>> frame a 1:24000 series map of their location as a gift. If their place
is near an edge or corner, I include the adjacent maps, carefully fitted >>> together. I think the resulting wall hanging is quite beautiful.
Uk Ordnance Survey you can buy them centred on your house etc, no digital
down load and so on but nevertheless fun.
I do also use the old online versions to find stuff that has disappeared,
and go for an explore.
Roger Merriman
Being a it of a history nut, I like to do that, but I think old
antique maps are best for that. I have copies of old maps that show
the old stagecoach road that ran through two of my ancestors farms.
When I said I haven't looked at a paper map for decades, I was
referring to using them for navigation, but I enthralled with old
antique maps and using them to find places with history. I used an old
map and old books to find and hike to the place where I believe my
great grandfather and his cavalry mates crossed the Rappahannock River
to attack Jeb Stuart. I sat on the stone fence where his brother, my
great uncle died.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 21:40:54 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/27/2025 8:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/27/2025 4:37 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 00:11:21 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>Note the maps I?m talking about are UK Ordance Survey so their focus >>>>>> is for
Zen Cycle <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 6:39 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:To be fair that?s one feature Strava has which is one can see if >>>>>>>> anyone has
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 4:00 PM, cyclintom wrote:Indeed does seem to believe all sorts of things about the Garmin?s >>>>>>>>>> that a
On Mon Jun 23 13:32:57 2025 Frank Krygowski� wrote:
On 6/23/2025 11:19 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
it's possible he's having trouble getting the moving average >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to display.
he might need some guidance getting the datafield menu, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm done
helping him.
I was suffering some irritation with my new cell phone. A 13- >>>>>>>>>>>>> year-old
fixed it for me within minutes.
Tom should hire a 13-year-old.
Frank, are you saying that you don't know anything about a >>>>>>>>>>>> Garmin but
someone else should?
I have no interest in Garmins. But I'm saying _you_ don't know >>>>>>>>>>> enough
about your Garmin, and that today's teenagers are often adept at >>>>>>>>>>> electronic devices and their menu systems.
But forget it. Figure it out yourself, while bitching that you >>>>>>>>>>> are right
and the rest of the universe is wrong, as you usually do. >>>>>>>>>>
clearly not correct!
Personally they are handy for navigation, while I use maps (yes >>>>>>>>>> paper) to
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to tell me >>>>>>>>>>> how
much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to achieve with
your Garmin. Training for your next race?
plot a route a device that can keep one on that route, this sort >>>>>>>>>> of thing
is much less with roads, which are by some degree easier to navigate.
There was a movie called Hard Miles that came out a few years ago >>>>>>>>> starring Mattew Modine. The IMDB synopsis reads:
"A prison social worker assembles a cycling team of teenage
convicts and
takes them on a transformative 1,000-mile ride. Inspired by the >>>>>>>>> life of
Greg Townsend and the Ridgeview Academy cycling team."
I saw it in the theater when it came out. I gave it a solid B/B+, >>>>>>>>> partially since it did a reasonable job in the technical aspects, >>>>>>>>> but it
was a good movie overall with a very positive message.
The relevant point to my response, was when Modine's character was >>>>>>>>> teaching the kids how to read a map - which they would need since they
weren't' going to be allowed to bring cellphones on the trip. >>>>>>>>>
One of the teenagers suggested they avoid a city center since the map >>>>>>>>> had the roads shown in red, meaning they had a lot of traffic. The >>>>>>>>> interaction between the two about how a paper map could possibly be >>>>>>>>> updated in real time was hilarious.
used a segment and this year/month/week to gauge does this exist on the
ground and is it rideable? Names occasionally give the name away, >>>>>>>> segments
named Bramble tunnel for example I might avoid!
Ie that there is a right of way is one thing but is it possible to >>>>>>>> ride it?
The paper maps can?t tell me, sometimes I can be fairly sure for >>>>>>>> example
some of the rarely used stuff on the Ridgeway is open land so be >>>>>>>> passable.
Roger Merriman
I do use Strava etc for the social and so on aspect.
And I do prefer Strava route builder over others particularly as I >>>>>>>>>> do ride
routes less traveled so that?s always useful.
Roger Merriman
I haven't looked at a paper map for decades. I'm surprised that they >>>>>>> still make them.
land and rights of way, way beyond tarmac roads, they do have digital >>>>>> download which is handy, as a mobile is generally more waterproof and >>>>>> easier to carry.
Google maps and similar will do little in such areas.
--Roger Merriman
C'est bon
Soloman
My experience as well.� Good mapmakers are a wonderful resource.
Heartily agreed! I love USGS maps, and I once had an article published >>>> in _Bicycling_ explaining and praising them for bicycling, especially
for the contour data.
When a good friend or family member moves to a new location, I mount and >>>> frame a 1:24000 series map of their location as a gift. If their place >>>> is near an edge or corner, I include the adjacent maps, carefully fitted >>>> together. I think the resulting wall hanging is quite beautiful.
Uk Ordnance Survey you can buy them centred on your house etc, no digital >>> down load and so on but nevertheless fun.
I do also use the old online versions to find stuff that has disappeared, >>> and go for an explore.
Roger Merriman
Being a it of a history nut, I like to do that, but I think old
antique maps are best for that. I have copies of old maps that show
the old stagecoach road that ran through two of my ancestors farms.
I tend to find the very old ones aren�t particularly detailed and large
scale which is why Ordance Survey was set up, and there are fairly detailed >ones 18xx (late)
Which to be fair is often more curiosity why is that track there? Roman and >so on roads are normally fairly clear.
When I said I haven't looked at a paper map for decades, I was
referring to using them for navigation, but I enthralled with old
antique maps and using them to find places with history. I used an old
map and old books to find and hike to the place where I believe my
great grandfather and his cavalry mates crossed the Rappahannock River
to attack Jeb Stuart. I sat on the stone fence where his brother, my
great uncle died.
That for me at least in the close term would probably be the world wars, >going further back it�s much more diluted, and sometimes on both sides such >as Battle of Hastings and so on.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
Roger Merriman
On 6/27/2025 5:40 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
When a good friend or family member moves to a new location, I mount and >>> frame a 1:24000 series map of their location as a gift. If their place
is near an edge or corner, I include the adjacent maps, carefully fitted >>> together. I think the resulting wall hanging is quite beautiful.
Uk Ordnance Survey you can buy them centred on your house etc, no digital
down load and so on but nevertheless fun.
I do also use the old online versions to find stuff that has disappeared,
and go for an explore.
Speaking of stuff that has disappeared:
I make good use of Google Maps, and ISTR that at one time certain
locations were able to show satellite images from a selection of years
past; although I don't see that option now.
I also make use of Street View within Google Maps. I can't wait for
their "Time Machine" version of Street View, where you can dial up a particular location's street view, then see that view at any moment in
time.
I'm sure Google's working on it!
On 6/26/2025 7:49 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Wed, 25 Jun 2025 16:18:10 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]>:
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to tell me how
much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to achieve with
your Garmin. Training for your next race?
I don't need electronics to tell me that I'm getting slower over time,
especially after I couldn't ride my bikes or train my muscles, for a
while.
On the other hand, after an earlier accident I was quite successfull to
regain strength by systematic training, both on an indoor trainer and
then starting outdoors again. Currently, measuring and controlling
wattage, amount of work, heart rate, speed, cadence etc. using Garmin
devices like the 1030 plus helped a lot.
The joke about "training for you next race" gets somewhat old. Be happy
that you are strong enough and stay strong enough without help from
training equipment. But please, have some understanding for the needs
and ways of people who aren't in your comfortable position.
Personally, I don't need any help with any of this, thank you very much.
But considering the toxicity here, I probably wouldn't ask.
On the other hand, I'm not that interested in explaining any of what I
learned to people who are obviously unable to make use of it. Cyclintoms
political statements are disgusting. He is incapable of understanding
basic facts about how Garmin devices work. Garmin devices are
unnecessary. We can agree on that, including the latter. You can clearly
can do without a Garmin 1030 or a similar device.
Where I strongly disagree, however, is your opinion that these devices
aren't usefull in general. In my situation, I'd even call these
necessary, in retrospect. The older you get, the less time you have to
work against muscle loss. And sometimes shit happenes. My experience,
my opinion, you are free to disagree.
I'll take your word, and the word of others, that Garmins are useful as >training aids.
I won't be personally testing that idea, for several
reasons.
One is that I never used any dedicated training regime, even back when I
was hoping to get faster.
Whatever skills or power I had came from just
riding the bike, with a few added details. I pushed myself to the point
of pain on certain rides home from work. I rode our tandem with my kids
or my wife when their power wasn't up to mine. I avoided the "granny
gear" except on tour, no matter how steep the hill. Those practices kept
me sufficiently strong to ride wherever I wanted, with whomever I wanted.
Another reason is that I had almost no interest in racing. I didn't have >enough time to devote to the training that would have been necessary,
and I didn't want the pain that would have been necessary.
But the third reason is my general frustration with excessive electronic >complexity, and that's in all aspects of life. I generally prefer
simplicity.
Programmers seem to love piles and piles of menu options, as
well as software revisions and sometimes arcane user interfaces. I don't
want that stuff injecting itself into my cycling experience. Obviously,
YMMV.
But I do have a tiny bit of curiosity regarding Tom's motivation for
using a Garmin. He's certainly not training to race, and AFAIK he's not >getting any information he couldn't get from a standard cyclometer's
"average speed" feature - or from a mechanical cyclometer and a stopwatch.
On 6/26/2025 3:00 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:
I can't remember the last time I rode with someone - even older/
noncompetitive riders - who didn't have ride tracking hardware on their
bike. Some people do just because they _like_ to track the data.
Interesting. I know you do some racing and definitely a lot of training.
On 6/28/2025 8:19 AM, zen cycle wrote:
On 6/27/2025 8:47 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
I make good use of Google Maps, and ISTR that at one time certain
locations were able to show satellite images from a selection of years
past; although I don't see that option now.
I also make use of Street View within Google Maps. I can't wait for
their "Time Machine" version of Street View, where you can dial up a
particular location's street view, then see that view at any moment in
time.
I'm sure Google's working on it!
That's been working for many years now. when in street view, in the top
left corner ther's a black box with the date the image was taken, next
to that there's a "see more dates" link which brings up all the images
from years past. I can see images of my house every few years back to 2007.
But I want to go back to the 1500s! ;-)
The feature I mentioned above was not within Street View. It was old
aerial or satellite images.
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/28/2025 8:19 AM, zen cycle wrote:
On 6/27/2025 8:47 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:But I want to go back to the 1500s! ;-)
I make good use of Google Maps, and ISTR that at one time certain
locations were able to show satellite images from a selection of years >>>> past; although I don't see that option now.
I also make use of Street View within Google Maps. I can't wait for
their "Time Machine" version of Street View, where you can dial up a
particular location's street view, then see that view at any moment in >>>> time.
I'm sure Google's working on it!
That's been working for many years now. when in street view, in the top
left corner ther's a black box with the date the image was taken, next
to that there's a "see more dates" link which brings up all the images
from years past. I can see images of my house every few years back to 2007. >>
The feature I mentioned above was not within Street View. It was old
aerial or satellite images.
Google earth is what you want! Which I�ve not used in quite a while, though >the desktop version of google maps I think did used to have older satellite >imagery but can�t remember and I�ve not checked so maybe still does, as my >computer is my iPad I do have a 2011 ish Mac but its not used much.
Roger Merriman
Bicycle helmets are the Bach flower remedies of traffic
On 6/28/2025 12:29 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
The feature I mentioned above was not within Street View. It was old
aerial or satellite images.
Google earth is what you want!
Yes, I should check it out. I haven't used it in a long while.
On Sat Jun 28 18:13:26 2025 Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Bicycle helmets are the Bach flower remedies of traffic
So you think that people are afraid of traffic and allay that fear by convincing themselves that a helmet will protect them?
But 90% of bicycle accidents are fall-overs that are likely to lead to serious injuries that helmets can reduct.
If I wasn't wearing that shitty foam helmet it is very likely that I would have been killed when my fork fell apart.
And if I were wearing a Wavecel helmet I probably would have received the concusion.
Am Sat, 28 Jun 2025 17:54:40 GMT schrieb cyclintom
<[email protected]>:
On Sat Jun 28 18:13:26 2025 Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Bicycle helmets are the Bach flower remedies of traffic
That's indeed a signature that I sometimes use.
So you think that people are afraid of traffic and allay that fear by convincing themselves that a helmet will protect them?
No, I don't think so. I rarely see people wearing helmets while
traveling by car.
But 90% of bicycle accidents are fall-overs that are likely to lead to serious injuries that helmets can reduct.
You just made that up, didn't you?
If I wasn't wearing that shitty foam helmet it is very likely that I would have been killed when my fork fell apart.
If you hadn't been wearing a shitty foam helmet, you might have
inspected and fixed your shitty fork.
And if I were wearing a Wavecel helmet I probably would have received the concusion.
I don't know what a Wavecel helmet is. Perhaps a talking magic hat
telling you to inspect your shitty fork?
<https://leselustfestival.de/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/zauberhut.jpg>
Guessing from some distance, allow me to make a recommendation: wear
your helmet around the clock, even if you only get up from the sofa to
switch off the TV. Most fatal head injuries occur at home and if you
have a history of head injuries, you should be even more careful. This
is no joke.
On 6/28/2025 2:49 PM, Mark J cleary wrote:
On 6/28/2025 12:36 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:I've read that such navigation skills are on the wane. People who rely
On 6/28/2025 12:29 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:i love Google earth and visit the site weekly for various things. I am
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
The feature I mentioned above was not within Street View. It was old >>>>> aerial or satellite images.
Google earth is what you want!
Yes, I should check it out. I haven't used it in a long while.
an oddball I love looking at maps and terrain, even basic road maps I
think they put a mental picture in head that is positive. I rarely get
lost and can figure out how to get around I think from using the mind.
on GPS mapping tend to lose their ability to form conceptual maps and
find their way around.
Today I explored some roads I hadn't ridden for many years, because
they're not as easy as my "normal" roads to get to by bike. Beautiful >country, although hilly.
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 21:40:54 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/27/2025 8:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/27/2025 4:37 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 00:11:21 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>Note the maps I m talking about are UK Ordance Survey so their focus >>>>> is for
Zen Cycle <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 6:39 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:To be fair that?s one feature Strava has which is one can see if >>>>>>> anyone has
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 4:00 PM, cyclintom wrote:Indeed does seem to believe all sorts of things about the Garmin?s >>>>>>>>> that a
On Mon Jun 23 13:32:57 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/23/2025 11:19 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
it's possible he's having trouble getting the moving average >>>>>>>>>>>>> to display.
he might need some guidance getting the datafield menu, but >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm done
helping him.
I was suffering some irritation with my new cell phone. A 13- >>>>>>>>>>>> year-old
fixed it for me within minutes.
Tom should hire a 13-year-old.
Frank, are you saying that you don't know anything about a >>>>>>>>>>> Garmin but
someone else should?
I have no interest in Garmins. But I'm saying _you_ don't know >>>>>>>>>> enough
about your Garmin, and that today's teenagers are often adept at >>>>>>>>>> electronic devices and their menu systems.
But forget it. Figure it out yourself, while bitching that you >>>>>>>>>> are right
and the rest of the universe is wrong, as you usually do. >>>>>>>>>
clearly not correct!
Personally they are handy for navigation, while I use maps (yes >>>>>>>>> paper) to
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to tell me >>>>>>>>>> how
much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to achieve with
your Garmin. Training for your next race?
plot a route a device that can keep one on that route, this sort >>>>>>>>> of thing
is much less with roads, which are by some degree easier to navigate.
There was a movie called Hard Miles that came out a few years ago >>>>>>>> starring Mattew Modine. The IMDB synopsis reads:
"A prison social worker assembles a cycling team of teenage
convicts and
takes them on a transformative 1,000-mile ride. Inspired by the >>>>>>>> life of
Greg Townsend and the Ridgeview Academy cycling team."
I saw it in the theater when it came out. I gave it a solid B/B+, >>>>>>>> partially since it did a reasonable job in the technical aspects, >>>>>>>> but it
was a good movie overall with a very positive message.
The relevant point to my response, was when Modine's character was >>>>>>>> teaching the kids how to read a map - which they would need since they
weren't' going to be allowed to bring cellphones on the trip. >>>>>>>>
One of the teenagers suggested they avoid a city center since the map
had the roads shown in red, meaning they had a lot of traffic. The >>>>>>>> interaction between the two about how a paper map could possibly be >>>>>>>> updated in real time was hilarious.
used a segment and this year/month/week to gauge does this exist on the
ground and is it rideable? Names occasionally give the name away, >>>>>>> segments
named Bramble tunnel for example I might avoid!
Ie that there is a right of way is one thing but is it possible to >>>>>>> ride it?
The paper maps can?t tell me, sometimes I can be fairly sure for >>>>>>> example
some of the rarely used stuff on the Ridgeway is open land so be >>>>>>> passable.
Roger Merriman
I do use Strava etc for the social and so on aspect.
And I do prefer Strava route builder over others particularly as I >>>>>>>>> do ride
routes less traveled so that?s always useful.
Roger Merriman
I haven't looked at a paper map for decades. I'm surprised that they >>>>>> still make them.
land and rights of way, way beyond tarmac roads, they do have digital >>>>> download which is handy, as a mobile is generally more waterproof and >>>>> easier to carry.
Google maps and similar will do little in such areas.
--Roger Merriman
C'est bon
Soloman
My experience as well. Good mapmakers are a wonderful resource.
Heartily agreed! I love USGS maps, and I once had an article published >>> in _Bicycling_ explaining and praising them for bicycling, especially
for the contour data.
When a good friend or family member moves to a new location, I mount and >>> frame a 1:24000 series map of their location as a gift. If their place >>> is near an edge or corner, I include the adjacent maps, carefully fitted >>> together. I think the resulting wall hanging is quite beautiful.
Uk Ordnance Survey you can buy them centred on your house etc, no digital >> down load and so on but nevertheless fun.
I do also use the old online versions to find stuff that has disappeared, >> and go for an explore.
Roger Merriman
Being a it of a history nut, I like to do that, but I think old
antique maps are best for that. I have copies of old maps that show
the old stagecoach road that ran through two of my ancestors farms.
I tend to find the very old ones aren?t particularly detailed and large
scale which is why Ordance Survey was set up, and there are fairly detailed ones 18xx (late)
Which to be fair is often more curiosity why is that track there? Roman and so on roads are normally fairly clear.
When I said I haven't looked at a paper map for decades, I was
referring to using them for navigation, but I enthralled with old
antique maps and using them to find places with history. I used an old
map and old books to find and hike to the place where I believe my
great grandfather and his cavalry mates crossed the Rappahannock River
to attack Jeb Stuart. I sat on the stone fence where his brother, my
great uncle died.
That for me at least in the close term would probably be the world wars, going further back it?s much more diluted, and sometimes on both sides such as Battle of Hastings and so on.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9853880/
Of 76,000 bicycle related injuries, only 22% of them were wearing a helmet and it was directly related to time in the hospital. And funniest of all was that those most likely to be wearing a helmet were blacks, hispanics and children under the age of 17.
On 28 Jun 2025 07:47:07 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 21:40:54 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/27/2025 8:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/27/2025 4:37 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 00:11:21 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>Note the maps I?m talking about are UK Ordance Survey so their focus >>>>>> is for
Zen Cycle <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 6:39 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:To be fair that?s one feature Strava has which is one can see if >>>>>>>> anyone has
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 4:00 PM, cyclintom wrote:Indeed does seem to believe all sorts of things about the Garmin?s >>>>>>>>>> that a
On Mon Jun 23 13:32:57 2025 Frank Krygowski? wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/23/2025 11:19 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
it's possible he's having trouble getting the moving average >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to display.
he might need some guidance getting the datafield menu, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm done
helping him.
I was suffering some irritation with my new cell phone. A 13- >>>>>>>>>>>>> year-old
fixed it for me within minutes.
Tom should hire a 13-year-old.
Frank, are you saying that you don't know anything about a >>>>>>>>>>>> Garmin but
someone else should?
I have no interest in Garmins. But I'm saying _you_ don't know >>>>>>>>>>> enough
about your Garmin, and that today's teenagers are often adept at >>>>>>>>>>> electronic devices and their menu systems.
But forget it. Figure it out yourself, while bitching that you >>>>>>>>>>> are right
and the rest of the universe is wrong, as you usually do. >>>>>>>>>>
clearly not correct!
Personally they are handy for navigation, while I use maps (yes >>>>>>>>>> paper) to
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to tell me >>>>>>>>>>> how
much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to achieve with
your Garmin. Training for your next race?
plot a route a device that can keep one on that route, this sort >>>>>>>>>> of thing
is much less with roads, which are by some degree easier to navigate.
There was a movie called Hard Miles that came out a few years ago >>>>>>>>> starring Mattew Modine. The IMDB synopsis reads:
"A prison social worker assembles a cycling team of teenage >>>>>>>>> convicts and
takes them on a transformative 1,000-mile ride. Inspired by the >>>>>>>>> life of
Greg Townsend and the Ridgeview Academy cycling team."
I saw it in the theater when it came out. I gave it a solid B/B+, >>>>>>>>> partially since it did a reasonable job in the technical aspects, >>>>>>>>> but it
was a good movie overall with a very positive message.
The relevant point to my response, was when Modine's character was >>>>>>>>> teaching the kids how to read a map - which they would need since they
weren't' going to be allowed to bring cellphones on the trip. >>>>>>>>>
One of the teenagers suggested they avoid a city center since the map
had the roads shown in red, meaning they had a lot of traffic. The >>>>>>>>> interaction between the two about how a paper map could possibly be >>>>>>>>> updated in real time was hilarious.
used a segment and this year/month/week to gauge does this exist on the
ground and is it rideable? Names occasionally give the name away, >>>>>>>> segments
named Bramble tunnel for example I might avoid!
Ie that there is a right of way is one thing but is it possible to >>>>>>>> ride it?
The paper maps can?t tell me, sometimes I can be fairly sure for >>>>>>>> example
some of the rarely used stuff on the Ridgeway is open land so be >>>>>>>> passable.
Roger Merriman
I do use Strava etc for the social and so on aspect.
And I do prefer Strava route builder over others particularly as I >>>>>>>>>> do ride
routes less traveled so that?s always useful.
Roger Merriman
I haven't looked at a paper map for decades. I'm surprised that they >>>>>>> still make them.
land and rights of way, way beyond tarmac roads, they do have digital >>>>>> download which is handy, as a mobile is generally more waterproof and >>>>>> easier to carry.
Google maps and similar will do little in such areas.
--Roger Merriman
C'est bon
Soloman
My experience as well.? Good mapmakers are a wonderful resource.
Heartily agreed! I love USGS maps, and I once had an article published >>>> in _Bicycling_ explaining and praising them for bicycling, especially >>>> for the contour data.
When a good friend or family member moves to a new location, I mount and >>>> frame a 1:24000 series map of their location as a gift. If their place >>>> is near an edge or corner, I include the adjacent maps, carefully fitted >>>> together. I think the resulting wall hanging is quite beautiful.
Uk Ordnance Survey you can buy them centred on your house etc, no digital >>> down load and so on but nevertheless fun.
I do also use the old online versions to find stuff that has disappeared, >>> and go for an explore.
Roger Merriman
Being a it of a history nut, I like to do that, but I think old
antique maps are best for that. I have copies of old maps that show
the old stagecoach road that ran through two of my ancestors farms.
I tend to find the very old ones aren?t particularly detailed and large >scale which is why Ordance Survey was set up, and there are fairly detailed >ones 18xx (late)
Which to be fair is often more curiosity why is that track there? Roman and >so on roads are normally fairly clear.
When I said I haven't looked at a paper map for decades, I was
referring to using them for navigation, but I enthralled with old
antique maps and using them to find places with history. I used an old
map and old books to find and hike to the place where I believe my
great grandfather and his cavalry mates crossed the Rappahannock River
to attack Jeb Stuart. I sat on the stone fence where his brother, my
great uncle died.
That for me at least in the close term would probably be the world wars, >going further back it?s much more diluted, and sometimes on both sides such >as Battle of Hastings and so on.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
Roger Merriman
Much of the history of the USA is recent enough to have left visible
and identifiable evidence. The fascination so many USAians have with
the events, both real and imagined, of the last half of the 19th
century has resulted in some of the real evidence being preserved.
On Sat Jun 28 07:47:07 2025 Roger Merriman wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 21:40:54 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/27/2025 8:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/27/2025 4:37 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 00:11:21 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>Note the maps Im talking about are UK Ordance Survey so their focus >>>>>>> is for
Zen Cycle <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 6:39 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:To be fair that?s one feature Strava has which is one can see if >>>>>>>>> anyone has
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 4:00 PM, cyclintom wrote:Indeed does seem to believe all sorts of things about the Garmin?s >>>>>>>>>>> that a
On Mon Jun 23 13:32:57 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/23/2025 11:19 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
it's possible he's having trouble getting the moving average >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to display.
he might need some guidance getting the datafield menu, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm done
helping him.
I was suffering some irritation with my new cell phone. A 13- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> year-old
fixed it for me within minutes.
Tom should hire a 13-year-old.
Frank, are you saying that you don't know anything about a >>>>>>>>>>>>> Garmin but
someone else should?
I have no interest in Garmins. But I'm saying _you_ don't know >>>>>>>>>>>> enough
about your Garmin, and that today's teenagers are often adept at >>>>>>>>>>>> electronic devices and their menu systems.
But forget it. Figure it out yourself, while bitching that you >>>>>>>>>>>> are right
and the rest of the universe is wrong, as you usually do. >>>>>>>>>>>
clearly not correct!
Personally they are handy for navigation, while I use maps (yes >>>>>>>>>>> paper) to
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to tell me >>>>>>>>>>>> how
much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to achieve with
your Garmin. Training for your next race?
plot a route a device that can keep one on that route, this sort >>>>>>>>>>> of thing
is much less with roads, which are by some degree easier to navigate.
There was a movie called Hard Miles that came out a few years ago >>>>>>>>>> starring Mattew Modine. The IMDB synopsis reads:
"A prison social worker assembles a cycling team of teenage >>>>>>>>>> convicts and
takes them on a transformative 1,000-mile ride. Inspired by the >>>>>>>>>> life of
Greg Townsend and the Ridgeview Academy cycling team."
I saw it in the theater when it came out. I gave it a solid B/B+, >>>>>>>>>> partially since it did a reasonable job in the technical aspects, >>>>>>>>>> but it
was a good movie overall with a very positive message.
The relevant point to my response, was when Modine's character was >>>>>>>>>> teaching the kids how to read a map - which they would need since they
weren't' going to be allowed to bring cellphones on the trip. >>>>>>>>>>
One of the teenagers suggested they avoid a city center since the map
had the roads shown in red, meaning they had a lot of traffic. The >>>>>>>>>> interaction between the two about how a paper map could possibly be >>>>>>>>>> updated in real time was hilarious.
used a segment and this year/month/week to gauge does this exist on the
ground and is it rideable? Names occasionally give the name away, >>>>>>>>> segments
named Bramble tunnel for example I might avoid!
Ie that there is a right of way is one thing but is it possible to >>>>>>>>> ride it?
The paper maps can?t tell me, sometimes I can be fairly sure for >>>>>>>>> example
some of the rarely used stuff on the Ridgeway is open land so be >>>>>>>>> passable.
Roger Merriman
I do use Strava etc for the social and so on aspect.
And I do prefer Strava route builder over others particularly as I >>>>>>>>>>> do ride
routes less traveled so that?s always useful.
Roger Merriman
I haven't looked at a paper map for decades. I'm surprised that they >>>>>>>> still make them.
land and rights of way, way beyond tarmac roads, they do have digital >>>>>>> download which is handy, as a mobile is generally more waterproof and >>>>>>> easier to carry.
Google maps and similar will do little in such areas.
--Roger Merriman
C'est bon
Soloman
My experience as well. Good mapmakers are a wonderful resource.
Heartily agreed! I love USGS maps, and I once had an article published >>>>> in _Bicycling_ explaining and praising them for bicycling, especially >>>>> for the contour data.
When a good friend or family member moves to a new location, I mount and >>>>> frame a 1:24000 series map of their location as a gift. If their place >>>>> is near an edge or corner, I include the adjacent maps, carefully fitted >>>>> together. I think the resulting wall hanging is quite beautiful.
Uk Ordnance Survey you can buy them centred on your house etc, no digital >>>> down load and so on but nevertheless fun.
I do also use the old online versions to find stuff that has disappeared, >>>> and go for an explore.
Roger Merriman
Being a it of a history nut, I like to do that, but I think old
antique maps are best for that. I have copies of old maps that show
the old stagecoach road that ran through two of my ancestors farms.
I tend to find the very old ones aren?t particularly detailed and large
scale which is why Ordance Survey was set up, and there are fairly detailed >> ones 18xx (late)
Which to be fair is often more curiosity why is that track there? Roman and >> so on roads are normally fairly clear.
When I said I haven't looked at a paper map for decades, I was
referring to using them for navigation, but I enthralled with old
antique maps and using them to find places with history. I used an old
map and old books to find and hike to the place where I believe my
great grandfather and his cavalry mates crossed the Rappahannock River
to attack Jeb Stuart. I sat on the stone fence where his brother, my
great uncle died.
That for me at least in the close term would probably be the world wars,
going further back it?s much more diluted, and sometimes on both sides such >> as Battle of Hastings and so on.
Romkan Roads were a marvel of engineering for their time. They were dug
deep and then followed with gravel and then stone. They had better be
plain because they were built to carry 4 columns next to each other.
Hadrians Wall is still there after over 2,000 years. Virtually ALL of the roads in northern Italy are paved over Roman roads.
On 6/28/2025 7:10 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Sat Jun 28 17:59:10 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
Agreed that it's mostly bullshit; but YOU chose to post a link to it.
Because I'm an engineer and you're not.
How odd! I'm the one with degrees in engineering, and you're not. I'm
the one who met the qualifications and passed the tests for Professional >Engineer licenses and you did not. Why are you so confused?
From what we can tell, you were a programming technician, not an
engineer. That's been thoroughly discussed, with references.
On Sat Jun 28 06:52:51 2025 Catrike Ryder wrote:
On 28 Jun 2025 07:47:07 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 21:40:54 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/27/2025 8:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/27/2025 4:37 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 00:11:21 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:Note the maps I?m talking about are UK Ordance Survey so their focus >> >>>>>> is for
Zen Cycle <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 6:39 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:To be fair that?s one feature Strava has which is one can see if
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 4:00 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Mon Jun 23 13:32:57 2025 Frank Krygowski? wrote:
On 6/23/2025 11:19 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
it's possible he's having trouble getting the moving average >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to display.
he might need some guidance getting the datafield menu, but >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm done
helping him.
I was suffering some irritation with my new cell phone. A 13- >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> year-old
fixed it for me within minutes.
Tom should hire a 13-year-old.
Frank, are you saying that you don't know anything about a
Garmin but
someone else should?
I have no interest in Garmins. But I'm saying _you_ don't know >> >>>>>>>>>>> enough
about your Garmin, and that today's teenagers are often adept at >> >>>>>>>>>>> electronic devices and their menu systems.
But forget it. Figure it out yourself, while bitching that you >> >>>>>>>>>>> are right
and the rest of the universe is wrong, as you usually do.
Indeed does seem to believe all sorts of things about the Garmin?s
that a
clearly not correct!
Personally they are handy for navigation, while I use maps (yes >> >>>>>>>>>> paper) to
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to tell me
how
much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to achieve with
your Garmin. Training for your next race?
plot a route a device that can keep one on that route, this sort >> >>>>>>>>>> of thing
is much less with roads, which are by some degree easier to navigate.
There was a movie called Hard Miles that came out a few years ago >> >>>>>>>>> starring Mattew Modine. The IMDB synopsis reads:
"A prison social worker assembles a cycling team of teenage
convicts and
takes them on a transformative 1,000-mile ride. Inspired by the
life of
Greg Townsend and the Ridgeview Academy cycling team."
I saw it in the theater when it came out. I gave it a solid B/B+, >> >>>>>>>>> partially since it did a reasonable job in the technical aspects, >> >>>>>>>>> but it
was a good movie overall with a very positive message.
The relevant point to my response, was when Modine's character was >> >>>>>>>>> teaching the kids how to read a map - which they would need since they
weren't' going to be allowed to bring cellphones on the trip.
One of the teenagers suggested they avoid a city center since the map
had the roads shown in red, meaning they had a lot of traffic. The >> >>>>>>>>> interaction between the two about how a paper map could possibly be
updated in real time was hilarious.
anyone has
used a segment and this year/month/week to gauge does this exist on the
ground and is it rideable? Names occasionally give the name away, >> >>>>>>>> segments
named Bramble tunnel for example I might avoid!
Ie that there is a right of way is one thing but is it possible to >> >>>>>>>> ride it?
The paper maps can?t tell me, sometimes I can be fairly sure for
example
some of the rarely used stuff on the Ridgeway is open land so be
passable.
Roger Merriman
I do use Strava etc for the social and so on aspect.
And I do prefer Strava route builder over others particularly as I
do ride
routes less traveled so that?s always useful.
Roger Merriman
I haven't looked at a paper map for decades. I'm surprised that they >> >>>>>>> still make them.
land and rights of way, way beyond tarmac roads, they do have digital >> >>>>>> download which is handy, as a mobile is generally more waterproof and >> >>>>>> easier to carry.
Google maps and similar will do little in such areas.
--Roger Merriman
C'est bon
Soloman
My experience as well.? Good mapmakers are a wonderful resource.
Heartily agreed! I love USGS maps, and I once had an article published >> >>>> in _Bicycling_ explaining and praising them for bicycling, especially >> >>>> for the contour data.
When a good friend or family member moves to a new location, I mount and
frame a 1:24000 series map of their location as a gift. If their place >> >>>> is near an edge or corner, I include the adjacent maps, carefully fitted
together. I think the resulting wall hanging is quite beautiful.
Uk Ordnance Survey you can buy them centred on your house etc, no digital
down load and so on but nevertheless fun.
I do also use the old online versions to find stuff that has disappeared,
and go for an explore.
Roger Merriman
Being a it of a history nut, I like to do that, but I think old
antique maps are best for that. I have copies of old maps that show
the old stagecoach road that ran through two of my ancestors farms.
I tend to find the very old ones aren?t particularly detailed and large
scale which is why Ordance Survey was set up, and there are fairly detailed >> >ones 18xx (late)
Which to be fair is often more curiosity why is that track there? Roman and >> >so on roads are normally fairly clear.
When I said I haven't looked at a paper map for decades, I was
referring to using them for navigation, but I enthralled with old
antique maps and using them to find places with history. I used an old
map and old books to find and hike to the place where I believe my
great grandfather and his cavalry mates crossed the Rappahannock River
to attack Jeb Stuart. I sat on the stone fence where his brother, my
great uncle died.
That for me at least in the close term would probably be the world wars,
going further back it?s much more diluted, and sometimes on both sides such >> >as Battle of Hastings and so on.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
Roger Merriman
Much of the history of the USA is recent enough to have left visible
and identifiable evidence. The fascination so many USAians have with
the events, both real and imagined, of the last half of the 19th
century has resulted in some of the real evidence being preserved.
Really not so much. With the change in races with each migration, these sorts of things were really important to people. Try and find ONE Pony Experss trail. Every once in awhile you can find slight evidence of Colverred Wagon roads as easternerstraveled west but they are very rare. And in the plains states the Bison wided any traces out. Enter ships that came to San Francisco were deserted by their crewes to get rich in the gold fields and they were pretty lucky to make enough to eat. ALL of
When a good friend or family member moves to a new location, I mount and >frame a 1:24000 series map of their location as a gift. If their place
is near an edge or corner, I include the adjacent maps, carefully fitted >together. I think the resulting wall hanging is quite beautiful.
I've read that such navigation skills are on the wane. People who rely
on GPS mapping tend to lose their ability to form conceptual maps and
find their way around.
Am Sat, 28 Jun 2025 17:42:35 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski ><[email protected]>:
I've read that such navigation skills are on the wane. People who rely
on GPS mapping tend to lose their ability to form conceptual maps and
find their way around.
Not sure about that. IMHO there are two modes: memorizing a course and
using your memory to recognize waypoints, or using an electronic map
with a course and an indication of your current position. I my
experience it takes quite some time to switch between those two modes,
which might give the impression that you've lost the other mode.
After some experiments with riding both by memory _and_ using the
electronic map as a guidance, I formed a habit to avoid a switch as much
as possible.
I'm either using the electronic moving map as a reference and guide, >adjusting my conceptual map on the way, or I use the conceptual map as a >reference, looking at the electronic map only when I get lost or have
doubts. Just like I would consult a paper map.
I should note that the only way I use the Garmin 1030 to navigate is by
using an existing or prebuilt track to navigate. The built-in routing of
the Garmin devices is too unreliable for me. What works almost perfectly
for cars creates too many bizarre detours for bicycles to be reasonable. >Unless you're into that sort of thing, of course.
Am Fri, 27 Jun 2025 15:10:47 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski <[email protected]>:
When a good friend or family member moves to a new location, I
mount and frame a 1:24000 series map of their location as a
gift. If their place is near an edge or corner, I include the
adjacent maps, carefully fitted together. I think the resulting
wall hanging is quite beautiful.
Nice. But I wouldn't carry such a map on my bike. :-) I've
often scaled a map to a reasonable size for printing an A4
sized copy on our laser printer, for use during our vacation in
France. It began doing that when I had the GPS based electronic
map while she still was using a folded paper map that is quite
awkward to use on a bike. A DIN A4 copy folded down twice to
postcard size is easier to use and nothing is lost whe you
damage or lose it on the way.
I still like to print a map like this for trips in unfamiliar
territory, just as a backup in case everything else fails. I
even had a Recta compass with me for such rides so I could
navigate the old-fashioned way*). We now have four different
devices with a built-in electronic compass. But I'm still
thinking about taking this compass with me anyway. If there's
still room in the saddlebag, 50 g won't make any difference.
If you are not involved in an incident with a motor vehicle it is very unlikely that you will be seriously injured on a bicycle.
But the chance does exist
And people who ride a great deal like I do are not stupid nor
excessively fearful of head injuries. I know a very great deal more
about helmets and head injuries and their prevention than you do.
My concussion was probably reduced from death to
a serious concussion that has permanently effected my life.
On Sat Jun 28 07:47:07 2025 Roger Merriman wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 21:40:54 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/27/2025 8:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/27/2025 4:37 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 00:11:21 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>Note the maps Im talking about are UK Ordance Survey so their focus >>>>>>> is for
Zen Cycle <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 6:39 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:To be fair that?s one feature Strava has which is one can see if >>>>>>>>> anyone has
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 4:00 PM, cyclintom wrote:Indeed does seem to believe all sorts of things about the Garmin?s >>>>>>>>>>> that a
On Mon Jun 23 13:32:57 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/23/2025 11:19 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
it's possible he's having trouble getting the moving average >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to display.
he might need some guidance getting the datafield menu, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm done
helping him.
I was suffering some irritation with my new cell phone. A 13- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> year-old
fixed it for me within minutes.
Tom should hire a 13-year-old.
Frank, are you saying that you don't know anything about a >>>>>>>>>>>>> Garmin but
someone else should?
I have no interest in Garmins. But I'm saying _you_ don't know >>>>>>>>>>>> enough
about your Garmin, and that today's teenagers are often adept at >>>>>>>>>>>> electronic devices and their menu systems.
But forget it. Figure it out yourself, while bitching that you >>>>>>>>>>>> are right
and the rest of the universe is wrong, as you usually do. >>>>>>>>>>>
clearly not correct!
Personally they are handy for navigation, while I use maps (yes >>>>>>>>>>> paper) to
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to tell me >>>>>>>>>>>> how
much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to achieve with
your Garmin. Training for your next race?
plot a route a device that can keep one on that route, this sort >>>>>>>>>>> of thing
is much less with roads, which are by some degree easier to navigate.
There was a movie called Hard Miles that came out a few years ago >>>>>>>>>> starring Mattew Modine. The IMDB synopsis reads:
"A prison social worker assembles a cycling team of teenage >>>>>>>>>> convicts and
takes them on a transformative 1,000-mile ride. Inspired by the >>>>>>>>>> life of
Greg Townsend and the Ridgeview Academy cycling team."
I saw it in the theater when it came out. I gave it a solid B/B+, >>>>>>>>>> partially since it did a reasonable job in the technical aspects, >>>>>>>>>> but it
was a good movie overall with a very positive message.
The relevant point to my response, was when Modine's character was >>>>>>>>>> teaching the kids how to read a map - which they would need since they
weren't' going to be allowed to bring cellphones on the trip. >>>>>>>>>>
One of the teenagers suggested they avoid a city center since the map
had the roads shown in red, meaning they had a lot of traffic. The >>>>>>>>>> interaction between the two about how a paper map could possibly be >>>>>>>>>> updated in real time was hilarious.
used a segment and this year/month/week to gauge does this exist on the
ground and is it rideable? Names occasionally give the name away, >>>>>>>>> segments
named Bramble tunnel for example I might avoid!
Ie that there is a right of way is one thing but is it possible to >>>>>>>>> ride it?
The paper maps can?t tell me, sometimes I can be fairly sure for >>>>>>>>> example
some of the rarely used stuff on the Ridgeway is open land so be >>>>>>>>> passable.
Roger Merriman
I do use Strava etc for the social and so on aspect.
And I do prefer Strava route builder over others particularly as I >>>>>>>>>>> do ride
routes less traveled so that?s always useful.
Roger Merriman
I haven't looked at a paper map for decades. I'm surprised that they >>>>>>>> still make them.
land and rights of way, way beyond tarmac roads, they do have digital >>>>>>> download which is handy, as a mobile is generally more waterproof and >>>>>>> easier to carry.
Google maps and similar will do little in such areas.
--Roger Merriman
C'est bon
Soloman
My experience as well. Good mapmakers are a wonderful resource.
Heartily agreed! I love USGS maps, and I once had an article published >>>>> in _Bicycling_ explaining and praising them for bicycling, especially >>>>> for the contour data.
When a good friend or family member moves to a new location, I mount and >>>>> frame a 1:24000 series map of their location as a gift. If their place >>>>> is near an edge or corner, I include the adjacent maps, carefully fitted >>>>> together. I think the resulting wall hanging is quite beautiful.
Uk Ordnance Survey you can buy them centred on your house etc, no digital >>>> down load and so on but nevertheless fun.
I do also use the old online versions to find stuff that has disappeared, >>>> and go for an explore.
Roger Merriman
Being a it of a history nut, I like to do that, but I think old
antique maps are best for that. I have copies of old maps that show
the old stagecoach road that ran through two of my ancestors farms.
I tend to find the very old ones aren?t particularly detailed and large
scale which is why Ordance Survey was set up, and there are fairly detailed >> ones 18xx (late)
Which to be fair is often more curiosity why is that track there? Roman and >> so on roads are normally fairly clear.
When I said I haven't looked at a paper map for decades, I was
referring to using them for navigation, but I enthralled with old
antique maps and using them to find places with history. I used an old
map and old books to find and hike to the place where I believe my
great grandfather and his cavalry mates crossed the Rappahannock River
to attack Jeb Stuart. I sat on the stone fence where his brother, my
great uncle died.
That for me at least in the close term would probably be the world wars,
going further back it?s much more diluted, and sometimes on both sides such >> as Battle of Hastings and so on.
Romkan Roads were a marvel of engineering for their time. They were dug deep and then followed with gravel and then stone. They had better be plain because they were built to carry 4 columns next to each other. Hadrians Wall is still there after over 2,000 years. Virtually ALL of the roads in northern Italy are paved over Roman roads.
On Wed, 25 Jun 2025 19:51:50 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
It is entirely different with a different operating system.
How can you tell? Do you have source code for the Garmin Edge product
line? What does "entirely different" mean to you? Is like the
difference between Windoze and Linux, or just a version number
difference?
Garmin GPS runs on GarminOS. 3rd party apps are written in MonkeyC,
which is actually a VM. GarminOS and MonkeyC are both proprietary to
Garmin with very little information available on the internet. Just
about everything Garmin sells was written in MonkeyC and runs on
GarminOS.
Your claim that each Garmin product uses and "entirely
different operating system" is a good laugh. Have fun:
"Compromising Garmin’s Sport Watches: A Deep Dive into GarminOS and
its MonkeyC Virtual Machine" ><https://www.anvilsecure.com/blog/compromising-garmins-sport-watches-a-deep-dive-into-garminos-and-its-monkeyc-virtual-machine.html>
I wonder how Garmin handles security and robustness of their devices. On
the one hand, at least after some updates, these devices run for a long
time without glitches. On the other hand, testing seems sparse. Garmin >Connect has trivial errors that should have been catched early in
testing.
cyclintom <[email protected]> wrote:
On Sat Jun 28 07:47:07 2025 Roger Merriman wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 21:40:54 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/27/2025 8:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/27/2025 4:37 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 00:11:21 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:Note the maps Im talking about are UK Ordance Survey so their focus >>>>>>> is for
Zen Cycle <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 6:39 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:To be fair that?s one feature Strava has which is one can see if >>>>>>>>> anyone has
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 4:00 PM, cyclintom wrote:Indeed does seem to believe all sorts of things about the Garmin?s
On Mon Jun 23 13:32:57 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/23/2025 11:19 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
it's possible he's having trouble getting the moving average >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to display.
he might need some guidance getting the datafield menu, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm done
helping him.
I was suffering some irritation with my new cell phone. A 13- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> year-old
fixed it for me within minutes.
Tom should hire a 13-year-old.
Frank, are you saying that you don't know anything about a >>>>>>>>>>>>> Garmin but
someone else should?
I have no interest in Garmins. But I'm saying _you_ don't know >>>>>>>>>>>> enough
about your Garmin, and that today's teenagers are often adept at >>>>>>>>>>>> electronic devices and their menu systems.
But forget it. Figure it out yourself, while bitching that you >>>>>>>>>>>> are right
and the rest of the universe is wrong, as you usually do. >>>>>>>>>>>
that a
clearly not correct!
Personally they are handy for navigation, while I use maps (yes >>>>>>>>>>> paper) to
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to tell me
how
much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to achieve with
your Garmin. Training for your next race?
plot a route a device that can keep one on that route, this sort >>>>>>>>>>> of thing
is much less with roads, which are by some degree easier to navigate.
There was a movie called Hard Miles that came out a few years ago >>>>>>>>>> starring Mattew Modine. The IMDB synopsis reads:
"A prison social worker assembles a cycling team of teenage >>>>>>>>>> convicts and
takes them on a transformative 1,000-mile ride. Inspired by the >>>>>>>>>> life of
Greg Townsend and the Ridgeview Academy cycling team."
I saw it in the theater when it came out. I gave it a solid B/B+, >>>>>>>>>> partially since it did a reasonable job in the technical aspects, >>>>>>>>>> but it
was a good movie overall with a very positive message.
The relevant point to my response, was when Modine's character was >>>>>>>>>> teaching the kids how to read a map - which they would need since they
weren't' going to be allowed to bring cellphones on the trip. >>>>>>>>>>
One of the teenagers suggested they avoid a city center since the map
had the roads shown in red, meaning they had a lot of traffic. The >>>>>>>>>> interaction between the two about how a paper map could possibly be
updated in real time was hilarious.
used a segment and this year/month/week to gauge does this exist on the
ground and is it rideable? Names occasionally give the name away, >>>>>>>>> segments
named Bramble tunnel for example I might avoid!
Ie that there is a right of way is one thing but is it possible to >>>>>>>>> ride it?
The paper maps can?t tell me, sometimes I can be fairly sure for >>>>>>>>> example
some of the rarely used stuff on the Ridgeway is open land so be >>>>>>>>> passable.
Roger Merriman
I do use Strava etc for the social and so on aspect.
And I do prefer Strava route builder over others particularly as I
do ride
routes less traveled so that?s always useful.
Roger Merriman
I haven't looked at a paper map for decades. I'm surprised that they >>>>>>>> still make them.
land and rights of way, way beyond tarmac roads, they do have digital >>>>>>> download which is handy, as a mobile is generally more waterproof and >>>>>>> easier to carry.
Google maps and similar will do little in such areas.
--Roger Merriman
C'est bon
Soloman
My experience as well. Good mapmakers are a wonderful resource.
Heartily agreed! I love USGS maps, and I once had an article published >>>>> in _Bicycling_ explaining and praising them for bicycling, especially >>>>> for the contour data.
When a good friend or family member moves to a new location, I mount and
frame a 1:24000 series map of their location as a gift. If their place >>>>> is near an edge or corner, I include the adjacent maps, carefully fitted
together. I think the resulting wall hanging is quite beautiful.
Uk Ordnance Survey you can buy them centred on your house etc, no digital
down load and so on but nevertheless fun.
I do also use the old online versions to find stuff that has disappeared,
and go for an explore.
Roger Merriman
Being a it of a history nut, I like to do that, but I think old
antique maps are best for that. I have copies of old maps that show
the old stagecoach road that ran through two of my ancestors farms.
I tend to find the very old ones aren?t particularly detailed and large
scale which is why Ordance Survey was set up, and there are fairly detailed
ones 18xx (late)
Which to be fair is often more curiosity why is that track there? Roman and
so on roads are normally fairly clear.
When I said I haven't looked at a paper map for decades, I was
referring to using them for navigation, but I enthralled with old
antique maps and using them to find places with history. I used an old >>> map and old books to find and hike to the place where I believe my
great grandfather and his cavalry mates crossed the Rappahannock River >>> to attack Jeb Stuart. I sat on the stone fence where his brother, my
great uncle died.
That for me at least in the close term would probably be the world wars, >> going further back it?s much more diluted, and sometimes on both sides such
as Battle of Hastings and so on.
Romkan Roads were a marvel of engineering for their time. They were dug deep and then followed with gravel and then stone. They had better be
plain because they were built to carry 4 columns next to each other. Hadrians Wall is still there after over 2,000 years. Virtually ALL of the roads in northern Italy are paved over Roman roads.
Hadrian wall isn?t a road, nor where Roman roads paved always most where
not, there are some in the city that absolutely were.
But ones city to city etc where at best gravel roads and show signs of multiple repairs, the image etc that one commonly gets for Roman roads
comes from a mistaken translation on building a cellar of all things.
One can see the shape and line of the Roman roads plenty in uk and most are used if in parts today but with modern roads.
Am Sat, 28 Jun 2025 17:42:35 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski <[email protected]>:
I've read that such navigation skills are on the wane. People who rely
on GPS mapping tend to lose their ability to form conceptual maps and
find their way around.
Not sure about that. IMHO there are two modes: memorizing a course and
using your memory to recognize waypoints, or using an electronic map
with a course and an indication of your current position. I my
experience it takes quite some time to switch between those two modes,
which might give the impression that you've lost the other mode.
After some experiments with riding both by memory _and_ using the
electronic map as a guidance, I formed a habit to avoid a switch as much
as possible.
I'm either using the electronic moving map as a reference and guide, adjusting my conceptual map on the way, or I use the conceptual map as a reference, looking at the electronic map only when I get lost or have
doubts. Just like I would consult a paper map.
I should note that the only way I use the Garmin 1030 to navigate is by
using an existing or prebuilt track to navigate. The built-in routing of
the Garmin devices is too unreliable for me. What works almost perfectly
for cars creates too many bizarre detours for bicycles to be reasonable. Unless you're into that sort of thing, of course.
cyclintom <[email protected]> wrote:
On Fri Jun 27 09:37:07 2025 Roger Merriman wrote:
Jeff Liebermann <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jun 2025 19:31:42 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Wed Jun 25 16:19:09 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jun 2025 19:51:50 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
It is entirely different with a different operating system.
How can you tell? Do you have source code for the Garmin Edge product >>>>> line? What does "entirely different" mean to you? Is like the
difference between Windoze and Linux, or just a version number
difference?
Garmin GPS runs on GarminOS. 3rd party apps are written in MonkeyC, >>>>> which is actually a VM. GarminOS and MonkeyC are both proprietary to >>>>> Garmin with very little information available on the internet. Just >>>>> about everything Garmin sells was written in MonkeyC and runs on
GarminOS. Your claim that each Garmin product uses and "entirely
different operating system" is a good laugh. Have fun:
"Compromising Garmin?s Sport Watches: A Deep Dive into GarminOS and >>>>> its MonkeyC Virtual Machine"
<https://www.anvilsecure.com/blog/compromising-garmins-sport-watches-a-deep-dive-into-garminos-and-its-monkeyc-virtual-machine.html>
"A Deep Dive Into GarminOS And Its MonkeyC Virtual Machine"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsqLb-l-TjA>
there is no spot in the 1030 manual that even mentions moving speed. >>>>>That's understandable. If you're not moving, your speed is always >>>>> zero.
I'm pretty sure that the Garmin shows speed and distance changes because >>>> the satelites are orgiting and the internal Garmin calcu;ation os a
little too course for these large positional changes. It isn;t as it >>>> they are much but they do make a slight difference in total distance >>>> ridden from ride to ride over the identical course.
I'm absolutely sure all that makes no sense. I suggest you take a
blood alcohol breath test before posting.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=blood%20alcohol%20breath%20tester&udm=2 >>>
Have you ever followed the same track twice and obtained exactly the
same distance?
He was obsessed that the airport was making his Garmin data drift a while >> back, note my commute using the same unit a Garmin edge 830 was absolutely >> fine though or around Heathrow.
Aka this is a Tom thing as ever.
It is a GPS thing. While on GPS, faifly long rides have shown as much as
3 or 4 miles variance. If I include distance sensors, it reports nearly
the same milage over the same course allowing a slight deviation for the wandering back and forth on the trail. Frankly I cannot believe that you haven't seen this. Try actually keeping track of your milage without a wheel sesor.
I don?t use a wheel sensor as it more than accurately measures, any
deviation is certainly less than a mile the commute where even though I
have multiple routes I?ve done them many times and so can compare, 11.60-11.80 miles seems to the the variable I?d expect the difference not
to grow as it?s about that sort of distance if I?ve ridden a event ie so
have multiple folks riding the same route.
I?d look at your set up or perhaps more wisely get some kind soul to do
that for you.
Am Wed, 25 Jun 2025 16:19:09 -0700 schrieb Jeff Liebermann ><[email protected]>:
On Wed, 25 Jun 2025 19:51:50 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
It is entirely different with a different operating system.
How can you tell? Do you have source code for the Garmin Edge product >>line? What does "entirely different" mean to you? Is like the
difference between Windoze and Linux, or just a version number
difference?
Garmin GPS runs on GarminOS. 3rd party apps are written in MonkeyC,
which is actually a VM. GarminOS and MonkeyC are both proprietary to >>Garmin with very little information available on the internet. Just
about everything Garmin sells was written in MonkeyC and runs on
GarminOS.
I haven't had any need or opportunity so far to research anything about
how Garmins hard- and software developement is organzized. But just a
view into the file system presented to an USB mass storage capable
computer shows that despite the difference in look, a Garmin watch like
the Forerunner 255 and an Edge 1030/1040 are almost indistinguable.
Your claim that each Garmin product uses and "entirely
different operating system" is a good laugh. Have fun:
"Compromising Garmin�s Sport Watches: A Deep Dive into GarminOS and
its MonkeyC Virtual Machine" >><https://www.anvilsecure.com/blog/compromising-garmins-sport-watches-a-deep-dive-into-garminos-and-its-monkeyc-virtual-machine.html>
I wonder how Garmin handles security and robustness of their devices. On
the one hand, at least after some updates, these devices run for a long
time without glitches. On the other hand, testing seems sparse. Garmin >Connect has trivial errors that should have been catched early in
testing.
A while ago, I started to write a small script/programm generating
workout files. Unfortunately, there isn't a complete specification for >workout files, so one has to do some reverse engineering based on
existing workout files created via the web based workout editor in
Garmin Connect. Even worse, deviance from what an existing complete >specification would prescribe causes syntactially valid .fit resembling
a workout file to hang my Edge 1030. Even reset by long press didn't
work. So far I have managed to somehow get out of that state by
pressing some buttons a few times and waiting, but didn't recognize a >pattern. Given that even draining the battery wouldn't remove the
offending file, I gave up, fearing to loose the expensive device in the
long run. More research required, something for winter times ... :-)
On 6/28/2025 7:30 PM, cyclintom wrote:2,000 years. Virtually ALL of the roads in northern Italy are paved over Roman roads.
On Sat Jun 28 07:47:07 2025 Roger Merriman wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 21:40:54 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/27/2025 8:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/27/2025 4:37 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 00:11:21 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>Note the maps Im talking about are UK Ordance Survey so their focus >>>>>>>> is for
Zen Cycle <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 6:39 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:To be fair that?s one feature Strava has which is one can see if >>>>>>>>>> anyone has
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 4:00 PM, cyclintom wrote:Indeed does seem to believe all sorts of things about the Garmin?s >>>>>>>>>>>> that a
On Mon Jun 23 13:32:57 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/23/2025 11:19 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
it's possible he's having trouble getting the moving average >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to display.
he might need some guidance getting the datafield menu, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm done
helping him.
I was suffering some irritation with my new cell phone. A 13- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> year-old
fixed it for me within minutes.
Tom should hire a 13-year-old.
Frank, are you saying that you don't know anything about a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Garmin but
someone else should?
I have no interest in Garmins. But I'm saying _you_ don't know >>>>>>>>>>>>> enough
about your Garmin, and that today's teenagers are often adept at >>>>>>>>>>>>> electronic devices and their menu systems.
But forget it. Figure it out yourself, while bitching that you >>>>>>>>>>>>> are right
and the rest of the universe is wrong, as you usually do. >>>>>>>>>>>>
clearly not correct!
Personally they are handy for navigation, while I use maps (yes >>>>>>>>>>>> paper) to
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to tell me >>>>>>>>>>>>> how
much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to achieve with
your Garmin. Training for your next race?
plot a route a device that can keep one on that route, this sort >>>>>>>>>>>> of thing
is much less with roads, which are by some degree easier to navigate.
There was a movie called Hard Miles that came out a few years ago >>>>>>>>>>> starring Mattew Modine. The IMDB synopsis reads:
"A prison social worker assembles a cycling team of teenage >>>>>>>>>>> convicts and
takes them on a transformative 1,000-mile ride. Inspired by the >>>>>>>>>>> life of
Greg Townsend and the Ridgeview Academy cycling team."
I saw it in the theater when it came out. I gave it a solid B/B+, >>>>>>>>>>> partially since it did a reasonable job in the technical aspects, >>>>>>>>>>> but it
was a good movie overall with a very positive message.
The relevant point to my response, was when Modine's character was >>>>>>>>>>> teaching the kids how to read a map - which they would need since they
weren't' going to be allowed to bring cellphones on the trip. >>>>>>>>>>>
One of the teenagers suggested they avoid a city center since the map
had the roads shown in red, meaning they had a lot of traffic. The >>>>>>>>>>> interaction between the two about how a paper map could possibly be >>>>>>>>>>> updated in real time was hilarious.
used a segment and this year/month/week to gauge does this exist on the
ground and is it rideable? Names occasionally give the name away, >>>>>>>>>> segments
named Bramble tunnel for example I might avoid!
Ie that there is a right of way is one thing but is it possible to >>>>>>>>>> ride it?
The paper maps can?t tell me, sometimes I can be fairly sure for >>>>>>>>>> example
some of the rarely used stuff on the Ridgeway is open land so be >>>>>>>>>> passable.
Roger Merriman
I do use Strava etc for the social and so on aspect.
And I do prefer Strava route builder over others particularly as I >>>>>>>>>>>> do ride
routes less traveled so that?s always useful.
Roger Merriman
I haven't looked at a paper map for decades. I'm surprised that they >>>>>>>>> still make them.
land and rights of way, way beyond tarmac roads, they do have digital >>>>>>>> download which is handy, as a mobile is generally more waterproof and >>>>>>>> easier to carry.
Google maps and similar will do little in such areas.
--Roger Merriman
C'est bon
Soloman
My experience as well. Good mapmakers are a wonderful resource.
Heartily agreed! I love USGS maps, and I once had an article published >>>>>> in _Bicycling_ explaining and praising them for bicycling, especially >>>>>> for the contour data.
When a good friend or family member moves to a new location, I mount and >>>>>> frame a 1:24000 series map of their location as a gift. If their place >>>>>> is near an edge or corner, I include the adjacent maps, carefully fitted >>>>>> together. I think the resulting wall hanging is quite beautiful.
Uk Ordnance Survey you can buy them centred on your house etc, no digital >>>>> down load and so on but nevertheless fun.
I do also use the old online versions to find stuff that has disappeared, >>>>> and go for an explore.
Roger Merriman
Being a it of a history nut, I like to do that, but I think old
antique maps are best for that. I have copies of old maps that show
the old stagecoach road that ran through two of my ancestors farms.
I tend to find the very old ones aren?t particularly detailed and large
scale which is why Ordance Survey was set up, and there are fairly detailed >>> ones 18xx (late)
Which to be fair is often more curiosity why is that track there? Roman and >>> so on roads are normally fairly clear.
When I said I haven't looked at a paper map for decades, I was
referring to using them for navigation, but I enthralled with old
antique maps and using them to find places with history. I used an old >>>> map and old books to find and hike to the place where I believe my
great grandfather and his cavalry mates crossed the Rappahannock River >>>> to attack Jeb Stuart. I sat on the stone fence where his brother, my
great uncle died.
That for me at least in the close term would probably be the world wars, >>> going further back it?s much more diluted, and sometimes on both sides such >>> as Battle of Hastings and so on.
Romkan Roads were a marvel of engineering for their time. They were dug deep and then followed with gravel and then stone. They had better be plain because they were built to carry 4 columns next to each other. Hadrians Wall is still there after over
WTF?
"Virtually ALL of the roads in northern Italy are paved over
Roman roads." is not even remotely believable. It's just
not true.
On Sun, 29 Jun 2025 09:13:01 -0500, AMuzi <[email protected]> wrote:2,000 years. Virtually ALL of the roads in northern Italy are paved over Roman roads.
On 6/28/2025 7:30 PM, cyclintom wrote:
Romkan Roads were a marvel of engineering for their time. They were dug deep and then followed with gravel and then stone. They had better be plain because they were built to carry 4 columns next to each other. Hadrians Wall is still there after over
WTF?
"Virtually ALL of the roads in northern Italy are paved over
Roman roads." is not even remotely believable. It's just
not true.
most noticeably in Venice (;-)
WTF?
"Virtually ALL of the roads in northern Italy are paved over
Roman roads." is not even remotely believable. It's just
not true.
most noticeably in Venice (;-)
On Sat, 28 Jun 2025 23:00:37 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>17.
wrote:
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9853880/
Of 76,000 bicycle related injuries, only 22% of them were wearing a helmet and it was directly related to time in the hospital. And funniest of all was that those most likely to be wearing a helmet were blacks, hispanics and children under the age of
Wrong. Not "most likely". Read the article that you cited. Blacks, hispanics and children under the age of 17 were among the least likely
to be wearing helmets.
"Results:
Of the 76,032 bicyclists with head/neck injury, 22% worn helmets. The
lowest was among Blacks, Hispanics, and <17 years old. Wearing a
helmet significantly reduces injury severity, HLOS, ICULOS, and
mortality (i.e total and in-hospital). Males had a severe injury,
longer HLOS, ICULOS, and higher mortality than female. Blacks and
Hispanics had longer HLOS and ICULOS and higher total mortality than
Whites, but had a similar chance for in-hospital mortality."
Am Sat, 28 Jun 2025 23:00:37 GMT schrieb cyclintom
<[email protected]>:
If you are not involved in an incident with a motor vehicle it is very unlikely that you will be seriously injured on a bicycle.
I'm not sure if you're trying to be a rhetorician or just a naive person
who falls for some rhetoric.
Make that "It is very unlikely that you will be seriously injured on a bicycle" or "If somebody got a seriouos injury, it is very unlikely
that he or she got it while riding a bicycle".
Your fallacy works by most people not understanding conditional
expressions that define a likelihood.
I don't know whether you noticed that your convoluted statement doesn't
say anything about either helmets or head injuries. It is pure fluff.
But the chance does exist
Of course it does. There is essentially no activity that doesn't have at least some tiny risk of getting severely injured.
And people who ride a great deal like I do are not stupid nor
excessively fearful of head injuries. I know a very great deal more
about helmets and head injuries and their prevention than you do.
So you say. Unfortunately, there is no sign of it. Otherwise you would
be promoting the use of helmets when climbing stairs.
My concussion was probably reduced from death to
a serious concussion that has permanently effected my life.
So you believe. But perhaps the opposite is true. Perhaps not believing
in the magic of a foam hat would have made you more carefull. You even
gave a hint that this may in fact have been the case, by writing "it is
very likely that I would have been killed when my fork fell apart" in <A%V7Q.194260$YI%[email protected]>.
Lets stay away from talking about your serious injury, which obviously
hasn't changed your life for the better. People who suffer from serious injuries or illnesses sometimes develop strange beliefs. Some of them go
on a crusade for a mostly arbitrary remedy. Leave the argument to those
who actually understand statistics and probability theory and are able
to read medical literature without losing their objectivity.
Wear your helmet if it makes you feel better. But don't waste your time advertising a product that wastes time and money that could be better
spent. Focus on your training, limit yourself to realistic goals and try
to ask questions that people can and want to answer.
On 6/29/2025 3:50 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Sat Jun 28 21:53:09 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/28/2025 7:10 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Sat Jun 28 17:59:10 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
Because I'm an engineer and you're not.
Agreed that it's mostly bullshit; but YOU chose to post a link to it. >>>>
How odd! I'm the one with degrees in engineering, and you're not. I'm
the one who met the qualifications and passed the tests for Professional >>> Engineer licenses and you did not. Why are you so confused?
From what we can tell, you were a programming technician, not an
engineer. That's been thoroughly discussed, with references.
I always enjoy you telling us that you have pieces of paper saying that you can do something that you've never done.
Tom, a person can't even get permission to take the eight hour,
difficult test required for a PE license unless he documents, with >references, his sufficient work experience as an engineer. Of course,
one also has to document his degree or degrees.
Look it up.
So you wouldn't even be allowed in the door of the examination hall.
On Sun Jun 29 09:13:01 2025 AMuzi wrote:2,000 years. Virtually ALL of the roads in northern Italy are paved over Roman roads.
On 6/28/2025 7:30 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Sat Jun 28 07:47:07 2025 Roger Merriman wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 21:40:54 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/27/2025 8:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/27/2025 4:37 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:Heartily agreed! I love USGS maps, and I once had an article published >>>>>>> in _Bicycling_ explaining and praising them for bicycling, especially >>>>>>> for the contour data.
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 00:11:21 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:Note the maps Im talking about are UK Ordance Survey so their focus >>>>>>>>> is for
Zen Cycle <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 6:39 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:To be fair that?s one feature Strava has which is one can see if >>>>>>>>>>> anyone has
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 4:00 PM, cyclintom wrote:Indeed does seem to believe all sorts of things about the Garmin?s
On Mon Jun 23 13:32:57 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/23/2025 11:19 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
it's possible he's having trouble getting the moving average >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to display.
he might need some guidance getting the datafield menu, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm done
helping him.
I was suffering some irritation with my new cell phone. A 13- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> year-old
fixed it for me within minutes.
Tom should hire a 13-year-old.
Frank, are you saying that you don't know anything about a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Garmin but
someone else should?
I have no interest in Garmins. But I'm saying _you_ don't know >>>>>>>>>>>>>> enough
about your Garmin, and that today's teenagers are often adept at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> electronic devices and their menu systems.
But forget it. Figure it out yourself, while bitching that you >>>>>>>>>>>>>> are right
and the rest of the universe is wrong, as you usually do. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
that a
clearly not correct!
Personally they are handy for navigation, while I use maps (yes >>>>>>>>>>>>> paper) to
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to tell me
how
much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to achieve with
your Garmin. Training for your next race?
plot a route a device that can keep one on that route, this sort >>>>>>>>>>>>> of thing
is much less with roads, which are by some degree easier to navigate.
There was a movie called Hard Miles that came out a few years ago >>>>>>>>>>>> starring Mattew Modine. The IMDB synopsis reads:
"A prison social worker assembles a cycling team of teenage >>>>>>>>>>>> convicts and
takes them on a transformative 1,000-mile ride. Inspired by the >>>>>>>>>>>> life of
Greg Townsend and the Ridgeview Academy cycling team." >>>>>>>>>>>>
I saw it in the theater when it came out. I gave it a solid B/B+, >>>>>>>>>>>> partially since it did a reasonable job in the technical aspects, >>>>>>>>>>>> but it
was a good movie overall with a very positive message. >>>>>>>>>>>>
The relevant point to my response, was when Modine's character was >>>>>>>>>>>> teaching the kids how to read a map - which they would need since they
weren't' going to be allowed to bring cellphones on the trip. >>>>>>>>>>>>
One of the teenagers suggested they avoid a city center since the map
had the roads shown in red, meaning they had a lot of traffic. The >>>>>>>>>>>> interaction between the two about how a paper map could possibly be
updated in real time was hilarious.
used a segment and this year/month/week to gauge does this exist on the
ground and is it rideable? Names occasionally give the name away, >>>>>>>>>>> segments
named Bramble tunnel for example I might avoid!
Ie that there is a right of way is one thing but is it possible to >>>>>>>>>>> ride it?
The paper maps can?t tell me, sometimes I can be fairly sure for >>>>>>>>>>> example
some of the rarely used stuff on the Ridgeway is open land so be >>>>>>>>>>> passable.
Roger Merriman
I do use Strava etc for the social and so on aspect. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
And I do prefer Strava route builder over others particularly as I
do ride
routes less traveled so that?s always useful.
Roger Merriman
I haven't looked at a paper map for decades. I'm surprised that they >>>>>>>>>> still make them.
land and rights of way, way beyond tarmac roads, they do have digital >>>>>>>>> download which is handy, as a mobile is generally more waterproof and >>>>>>>>> easier to carry.
Google maps and similar will do little in such areas.
--Roger Merriman
C'est bon
Soloman
My experience as well. Good mapmakers are a wonderful resource. >>>>>>>
When a good friend or family member moves to a new location, I mount and
frame a 1:24000 series map of their location as a gift. If their place >>>>>>> is near an edge or corner, I include the adjacent maps, carefully fitted
together. I think the resulting wall hanging is quite beautiful. >>>>>>>
Uk Ordnance Survey you can buy them centred on your house etc, no digital
down load and so on but nevertheless fun.
I do also use the old online versions to find stuff that has disappeared,
and go for an explore.
Roger Merriman
Being a it of a history nut, I like to do that, but I think old
antique maps are best for that. I have copies of old maps that show
the old stagecoach road that ran through two of my ancestors farms.
I tend to find the very old ones aren?t particularly detailed and large >>>> scale which is why Ordance Survey was set up, and there are fairly detailed
ones 18xx (late)
Which to be fair is often more curiosity why is that track there? Roman and
so on roads are normally fairly clear.
When I said I haven't looked at a paper map for decades, I was
referring to using them for navigation, but I enthralled with old
antique maps and using them to find places with history. I used an old >>>>> map and old books to find and hike to the place where I believe my
great grandfather and his cavalry mates crossed the Rappahannock River >>>>> to attack Jeb Stuart. I sat on the stone fence where his brother, my >>>>> great uncle died.
That for me at least in the close term would probably be the world wars, >>>> going further back it?s much more diluted, and sometimes on both sides such
as Battle of Hastings and so on.
Romkan Roads were a marvel of engineering for their time. They were dug deep and then followed with gravel and then stone. They had better be plain because they were built to carry 4 columns next to each other. Hadrians Wall is still there after over
WTF?
"Virtually ALL of the roads in northern Italy are paved over
Roman roads." is not even remotely believable. It's just
not true.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Why+are+Belgian+cobblestone+roads+built+like+that&atb=v366-1&t=chromentp&ia=videos&iax=videos&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DkUIsFv_JNYs
On Sun Jun 29 21:04:33 2025 cyclintom wrote:over 2,000 years. Virtually ALL of the roads in northern Italy are paved over Roman roads.
On Sun Jun 29 09:13:01 2025 AMuzi wrote:
On 6/28/2025 7:30 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Sat Jun 28 07:47:07 2025 Roger Merriman wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 21:40:54 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>I tend to find the very old ones aren?t particularly detailed and large >>>>> scale which is why Ordance Survey was set up, and there are fairly detailed
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/27/2025 8:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/27/2025 4:37 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:Heartily agreed! I love USGS maps, and I once had an article published >>>>>>>> in _Bicycling_ explaining and praising them for bicycling, especially >>>>>>>> for the contour data.
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 00:11:21 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:Note the maps Im talking about are UK Ordance Survey so their focus >>>>>>>>>> is for
Zen Cycle <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 6:39 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:To be fair that?s one feature Strava has which is one can see if >>>>>>>>>>>> anyone has
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 4:00 PM, cyclintom wrote:Indeed does seem to believe all sorts of things about the Garmin?s
On Mon Jun 23 13:32:57 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/23/2025 11:19 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
it's possible he's having trouble getting the moving average >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to display.
he might need some guidance getting the datafield menu, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm done
helping him.
I was suffering some irritation with my new cell phone. A 13- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> year-old
fixed it for me within minutes.
Tom should hire a 13-year-old.
Frank, are you saying that you don't know anything about a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Garmin but
someone else should?
I have no interest in Garmins. But I'm saying _you_ don't know >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enough
about your Garmin, and that today's teenagers are often adept at
electronic devices and their menu systems.
But forget it. Figure it out yourself, while bitching that you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are right
and the rest of the universe is wrong, as you usually do. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
that a
clearly not correct!
Personally they are handy for navigation, while I use maps (yes >>>>>>>>>>>>>> paper) to
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to tell me
how
much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to achieve with
your Garmin. Training for your next race?
plot a route a device that can keep one on that route, this sort >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of thing
is much less with roads, which are by some degree easier to navigate.
There was a movie called Hard Miles that came out a few years ago >>>>>>>>>>>>> starring Mattew Modine. The IMDB synopsis reads:
"A prison social worker assembles a cycling team of teenage >>>>>>>>>>>>> convicts and
takes them on a transformative 1,000-mile ride. Inspired by the >>>>>>>>>>>>> life of
Greg Townsend and the Ridgeview Academy cycling team." >>>>>>>>>>>>>
I saw it in the theater when it came out. I gave it a solid B/B+, >>>>>>>>>>>>> partially since it did a reasonable job in the technical aspects, >>>>>>>>>>>>> but it
was a good movie overall with a very positive message. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
The relevant point to my response, was when Modine's character was
teaching the kids how to read a map - which they would need since they
weren't' going to be allowed to bring cellphones on the trip. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
One of the teenagers suggested they avoid a city center since the map
had the roads shown in red, meaning they had a lot of traffic. The
interaction between the two about how a paper map could possibly be
updated in real time was hilarious.
used a segment and this year/month/week to gauge does this exist on the
ground and is it rideable? Names occasionally give the name away, >>>>>>>>>>>> segments
named Bramble tunnel for example I might avoid!
Ie that there is a right of way is one thing but is it possible to >>>>>>>>>>>> ride it?
The paper maps can?t tell me, sometimes I can be fairly sure for >>>>>>>>>>>> example
some of the rarely used stuff on the Ridgeway is open land so be >>>>>>>>>>>> passable.
Roger Merriman
I do use Strava etc for the social and so on aspect. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And I do prefer Strava route builder over others particularly as I
do ride
routes less traveled so that?s always useful.
Roger Merriman
I haven't looked at a paper map for decades. I'm surprised that they
still make them.
land and rights of way, way beyond tarmac roads, they do have digital
download which is handy, as a mobile is generally more waterproof and
easier to carry.
Google maps and similar will do little in such areas.
--Roger Merriman
C'est bon
Soloman
My experience as well. Good mapmakers are a wonderful resource. >>>>>>>>
When a good friend or family member moves to a new location, I mount and
frame a 1:24000 series map of their location as a gift. If their place >>>>>>>> is near an edge or corner, I include the adjacent maps, carefully fitted
together. I think the resulting wall hanging is quite beautiful. >>>>>>>>
Uk Ordnance Survey you can buy them centred on your house etc, no digital
down load and so on but nevertheless fun.
I do also use the old online versions to find stuff that has disappeared,
and go for an explore.
Roger Merriman
Being a it of a history nut, I like to do that, but I think old
antique maps are best for that. I have copies of old maps that show >>>>>> the old stagecoach road that ran through two of my ancestors farms. >>>>>
ones 18xx (late)
Which to be fair is often more curiosity why is that track there? Roman and
so on roads are normally fairly clear.
When I said I haven't looked at a paper map for decades, I was
referring to using them for navigation, but I enthralled with old
antique maps and using them to find places with history. I used an old >>>>>> map and old books to find and hike to the place where I believe my >>>>>> great grandfather and his cavalry mates crossed the Rappahannock River >>>>>> to attack Jeb Stuart. I sat on the stone fence where his brother, my >>>>>> great uncle died.
That for me at least in the close term would probably be the world wars, >>>>> going further back it?s much more diluted, and sometimes on both sides such
as Battle of Hastings and so on.
Romkan Roads were a marvel of engineering for their time. They were dug deep and then followed with gravel and then stone. They had better be plain because they were built to carry 4 columns next to each other. Hadrians Wall is still there after
WTF?
"Virtually ALL of the roads in northern Italy are paved over
Roman roads." is not even remotely believable. It's just
not true.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Why+are+Belgian+cobblestone+roads+built+like+that&atb=v366-1&t=chromentp&ia=videos&iax=videos&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DkUIsFv_JNYs
Oops, https://youtu.be/kUIsFv_JNYs
On Fri Jun 27 19:15:02 2025 Roger Merriman wrote:
cyclintom <[email protected]> wrote:
On Fri Jun 27 09:37:07 2025 Roger Merriman wrote:
Jeff Liebermann <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jun 2025 19:31:42 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Wed Jun 25 16:19:09 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jun 2025 19:51:50 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote:
It is entirely different with a different operating system.
How can you tell? Do you have source code for the Garmin Edge product >>>>>>> line? What does "entirely different" mean to you? Is like the
difference between Windoze and Linux, or just a version number
difference?
Garmin GPS runs on GarminOS. 3rd party apps are written in MonkeyC, >>>>>>> which is actually a VM. GarminOS and MonkeyC are both proprietary to >>>>>>> Garmin with very little information available on the internet. Just >>>>>>> about everything Garmin sells was written in MonkeyC and runs on >>>>>>> GarminOS. Your claim that each Garmin product uses and "entirely >>>>>>> different operating system" is a good laugh. Have fun:
"Compromising Garmin?s Sport Watches: A Deep Dive into GarminOS and >>>>>>> its MonkeyC Virtual Machine"
<https://www.anvilsecure.com/blog/compromising-garmins-sport-watches-a-deep-dive-into-garminos-and-its-monkeyc-virtual-machine.html>
"A Deep Dive Into GarminOS And Its MonkeyC Virtual Machine"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsqLb-l-TjA>
there is no spot in the 1030 manual that even mentions moving speed. >>>>>>>That's understandable. If you're not moving, your speed is always >>>>>>> zero.
I'm pretty sure that the Garmin shows speed and distance changes because >>>>>> the satelites are orgiting and the internal Garmin calcu;ation os a >>>>>> little too course for these large positional changes. It isn;t as it >>>>>> they are much but they do make a slight difference in total distance >>>>>> ridden from ride to ride over the identical course.
I'm absolutely sure all that makes no sense. I suggest you take a
blood alcohol breath test before posting.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=blood%20alcohol%20breath%20tester&udm=2 >>>>>
Have you ever followed the same track twice and obtained exactly the >>>>> same distance?
He was obsessed that the airport was making his Garmin data drift a while >>>> back, note my commute using the same unit a Garmin edge 830 was absolutely >>>> fine though or around Heathrow.
Aka this is a Tom thing as ever.
It is a GPS thing. While on GPS, faifly long rides have shown as much as >>> 3 or 4 miles variance. If I include distance sensors, it reports nearly
the same milage over the same course allowing a slight deviation for the >>> wandering back and forth on the trail. Frankly I cannot believe that you >>> haven't seen this. Try actually keeping track of your milage without a wheel sesor.
I don?t use a wheel sensor as it more than accurately measures, any
deviation is certainly less than a mile the commute where even though I
have multiple routes I?ve done them many times and so can compare,
11.60-11.80 miles seems to the the variable I?d expect the difference not
to grow as it?s about that sort of distance if I?ve ridden a event ie so
have multiple folks riding the same route.
I?d look at your set up or perhaps more wisely get some kind soul to do
that for you.
GPS satellites are orbiting the Earth and the Earth is rotating. There
are civilian calculations for position and military calculations which
are designed to target exact positions. Civilian GPS calculations have improved greatly over the years but still have a fairly large error which shows up as a position deviation. As I said, my positions here can vary
as much as a couple of miles over the same course but perhaps that is
because of the climbing around here. If you are getting what you think
are exactly the same distances I would guess that my errors are from the climbing.
In any case, wheel sensors erasde those errors and I have tested this
many times starting from the early double wheel and crank sensor to the present separate wheel and crank sensors.
On 6/29/2025 4:04 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Sun Jun 29 09:13:01 2025 AMuzi wrote:
On 6/28/2025 7:30 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Sat Jun 28 07:47:07 2025 Roger Merriman wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 21:40:54 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>I tend to find the very old ones aren?t particularly detailed and
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/27/2025 8:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/27/2025 4:37 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:Heartily agreed! I love USGS maps, and I once had an article
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 00:11:21 GMT, Roger MerrimanNote the maps Im talking about are UK Ordance Survey so their >>>>>>>>>> focus
<[email protected]> wrote:
Zen Cycle <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 6:39 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:To be fair that?s one feature Strava has which is one can >>>>>>>>>>>> see if
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 4:00 PM, cyclintom wrote:Indeed does seem to believe all sorts of things about the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Garmin?s
On Mon Jun 23 13:32:57 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/23/2025 11:19 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
it's possible he's having trouble getting the moving >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> average
to display.
he might need some guidance getting the datafield >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> menu, but
I'm done
helping him.
I was suffering some irritation with my new cell phone. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A 13-
year-old
fixed it for me within minutes.
Tom should hire a 13-year-old.
Frank, are you saying that you don't know anything about a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Garmin but
someone else should?
I have no interest in Garmins. But I'm saying _you_ don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know
enough
about your Garmin, and that today's teenagers are often >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> adept at
electronic devices and their menu systems.
But forget it. Figure it out yourself, while bitching >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that you
are right
and the rest of the universe is wrong, as you usually do. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
that a
clearly not correct!
Personally they are handy for navigation, while I use maps >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (yes
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tell me
how
much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> achieve with
your Garmin. Training for your next race?
paper) to
plot a route a device that can keep one on that route, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this sort
of thing
is much less with roads, which are by some degree easier >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to navigate.
There was a movie called Hard Miles that came out a few >>>>>>>>>>>>> years ago
starring Mattew Modine. The IMDB synopsis reads:
"A prison social worker assembles a cycling team of teenage >>>>>>>>>>>>> convicts and
takes them on a transformative 1,000-mile ride. Inspired by >>>>>>>>>>>>> the
life of
Greg Townsend and the Ridgeview Academy cycling team." >>>>>>>>>>>>>
I saw it in the theater when it came out. I gave it a solid >>>>>>>>>>>>> B/B+,
partially since it did a reasonable job in the technical >>>>>>>>>>>>> aspects,
but it
was a good movie overall with a very positive message. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
The relevant point to my response, was when Modine's >>>>>>>>>>>>> character was
teaching the kids how to read a map - which they would need >>>>>>>>>>>>> since they
weren't' going to be allowed to bring cellphones on the trip. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
One of the teenagers suggested they avoid a city center >>>>>>>>>>>>> since the map
had the roads shown in red, meaning they had a lot of >>>>>>>>>>>>> traffic. The
interaction between the two about how a paper map could >>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly be
updated in real time was hilarious.
anyone has
used a segment and this year/month/week to gauge does this >>>>>>>>>>>> exist on the
ground and is it rideable? Names occasionally give the name >>>>>>>>>>>> away,
segments
named Bramble tunnel for example I might avoid!
Ie that there is a right of way is one thing but is it >>>>>>>>>>>> possible to
ride it?
The paper maps can?t tell me, sometimes I can be fairly sure >>>>>>>>>>>> for
example
some of the rarely used stuff on the Ridgeway is open land >>>>>>>>>>>> so be
passable.
Roger Merriman
I do use Strava etc for the social and so on aspect. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And I do prefer Strava route builder over others
particularly as I
do ride
routes less traveled so that?s always useful.
Roger Merriman
I haven't looked at a paper map for decades. I'm surprised >>>>>>>>>>> that they
still make them.
is for
land and rights of way, way beyond tarmac roads, they do have >>>>>>>>>> digital
download which is handy, as a mobile is generally more
waterproof and
easier to carry.
Google maps and similar will do little in such areas.
--Roger Merriman
C'est bon
Soloman
My experience as well. Good mapmakers are a wonderful resource. >>>>>>>>
published
in _Bicycling_ explaining and praising them for bicycling,
especially
for the contour data.
When a good friend or family member moves to a new location, I >>>>>>>> mount and
frame a 1:24000 series map of their location as a gift. If their >>>>>>>> place
is near an edge or corner, I include the adjacent maps,
carefully fitted
together. I think the resulting wall hanging is quite beautiful. >>>>>>>>
Uk Ordnance Survey you can buy them centred on your house etc, no >>>>>>> digital
down load and so on but nevertheless fun.
I do also use the old online versions to find stuff that has
disappeared,
and go for an explore.
Roger Merriman
Being a it of a history nut, I like to do that, but I think old
antique maps are best for that. I have copies of old maps that show >>>>>> the old stagecoach road that ran through two of my ancestors farms. >>>>>
large
scale which is why Ordance Survey was set up, and there are fairly
detailed
ones 18xx (late)
Which to be fair is often more curiosity why is that track there?
Roman and
so on roads are normally fairly clear.
When I said I haven't looked at a paper map for decades, I was
referring to using them for navigation, but I enthralled with old
antique maps and using them to find places with history. I used an >>>>>> old
map and old books to find and hike to the place where I believe my >>>>>> great grandfather and his cavalry mates crossed the Rappahannock
River
to attack Jeb Stuart. I sat on the stone fence where his brother, my >>>>>> great uncle died.
That for me at least in the close term would probably be the world
wars,
going further back it?s much more diluted, and sometimes on both
sides such
as Battle of Hastings and so on.
Romkan Roads were a marvel of engineering for their time. They were
dug deep and then followed with gravel and then stone. They had
better be plain because they were built to carry 4 columns next to
each other. Hadrians Wall is still there after over 2,000 years.
Virtually ALL of the roads in northern Italy are paved over Roman
roads.
WTF?
"Virtually ALL of the roads in northern Italy are paved over
Roman roads." is not even remotely believable. It's just
not true.
https://duckduckgo.com/?
q=Why+are+Belgian+cobblestone+roads+built+like+that&atb=v366-1&t=chromentp&ia=videos&iax=videos&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DkUIsFv_JNYs
Although one might choose to cover a Roman road with cobbles, that's not 'original equipment'.
In the US, you can usually find Department of Transportation maps
by county. They show all the roads at a reasonably useful scale.
Am Sat, 28 Jun 2025 17:42:35 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski <[email protected]>:
I've read that such navigation skills are on the wane. People who rely
on GPS mapping tend to lose their ability to form conceptual maps and
find their way around.
Not sure about that. IMHO there are two modes: memorizing a course and
using your memory to recognize waypoints, or using an electronic map
with a course and an indication of your current position. I my
experience it takes quite some time to switch between those two modes,
which might give the impression that you've lost the other mode.
After some experiments with riding both by memory _and_ using the
electronic map as a guidance, I formed a habit to avoid a switch as much
as possible.
On 6/27/2025 8:44 AM, AMuzi wrote:
For Wisconsin, the Milwaukee Maps Service quadrant maps show every
county road with road names clearly, which is difficult for online maps.
https://shop.milwaukeemap.com/regional-3
DeLorme is a publisher that prints large scale "Atlas and Gazetter" maps
for most or all U.S. states: https://randpublishing.com/delorme/
The Ohio version is at 1:150,000 scale (about 2.4 miles per inch) and detailed enough to show every country road and even many street names in
tiny villages. I've used it extensively planning several bike tours.
Most notable was a tour we did from the Ohio River to Lake Erie,
following the roads as close as possible to the route of Ohio's first
canal, the Ohio & Erie. In the southern half of the state the canal is
given very little recognition, so it was hard to find the proper roads.
I used DeLorme to find things like "Canal Street" or "Lock Road" in
small towns to get clues.
That was a historically interesting tour. It was fun riding along some
quiet country road, then saying "Look! There's an old canal lock over
there in the woods!"
On Sat, 28 Jun 2025 17:42:35 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/28/2025 2:49 PM, Mark J cleary wrote:
On 6/28/2025 12:36 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:on GPS mapping tend to lose their ability to form conceptual maps and
On 6/28/2025 12:29 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:i love Google earth and visit the site weekly for various things. I am
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
The feature I mentioned above was not within Street View. It was old >>>>>> aerial or satellite images.
Google earth is what you want!
Yes, I should check it out. I haven't used it in a long while.
an oddball I love looking at maps and terrain, even basic road maps I
think they put a mental picture in head that is positive. I rarely get
lost and can figure out how to get around I think from using the mind. >>I've read that such navigation skills are on the wane. People who rely
find their way around.
Today I explored some roads I hadn't ridden for many years, because
they're not as easy as my "normal" roads to get to by bike. Beautiful >>country, although hilly.
I've read that people who don't have GPS have to stop and pull over to
look at their paper maps and even than they get lost.
Of couse, if they stay within a few miles of home, they're usually OK.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
On 6/30/2025 9:41 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
My favourite navigation method is to use coarse navigation by memory,
combined with route fine-tuning by electronic devices ("Oh, this route
turning left here looks nice, is it a meaningful alternative to the
planned route turning left 2 miles up the road?").
One of the benefits of riding with a bike club is that volunteer ride
leaders take pains to show off nice roads, roads with beautiful views or >items of interest. For me, the downside is having to use the car to get
to a distant starting point, plus seldom knowing exactly where I am
during the ride. Yes, I guess I could use gizmos to record those routes,
but I just don't bother.
When heading out of my driveway "just for a ride", I'll admit that my
habit has usually been to ride my "normal" routes - the ones I've
discovered and liked best over the years.
And over the years I eventually developed a list of such rides that I
printed out and hang on the wall near the bikes. I sorted the list by >distance, so I can say "I feel like doing 40 miles today; what are my
good choices?"
Those favorites I can do by memory, but I sometimes get curious about >variations. I may work those out by using the 3' x 4' array of USGS topo
maps I have hanging on a wall. But these days, it's more common for me
to pull out Google Maps if I stumble across an unfamiliar road that
might be interesting.
A few years ago, my wife and I were on the tandem and a best friend was
along for the ride. I talked them into exploring a closed road, one that
had long been our favorite route out "into the country" before the
township closed it. (I'll skip the nasty corporation/government story
behind that.) We made it through, but it involved a lot of walking due
to "pavement" consisting of 4"+ rocks. The ladies were not happy.
But I think exploration is hard wired into most people's brains, even if
it manifests merely as elderly ladies checking out a new store in the
mall. It's evident in even little kids, and I think it's behinds humans >migrating out of Africa and into every habitat on earth.
On 6/29/2025 4:13 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Sun Jun 29 21:04:33 2025 cyclintom wrote:
On Sun Jun 29 09:13:01 2025 AMuzi wrote:
On 6/28/2025 7:30 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Sat Jun 28 07:47:07 2025 Roger Merriman wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 21:40:54 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]>I tend to find the very old ones aren?t particularly detailed and
wrote:
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/27/2025 8:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/27/2025 4:37 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:Heartily agreed! I love USGS maps, and I once had an article >>>>>>>>> published
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 00:11:21 GMT, Roger MerrimanNote the maps Im talking about are UK Ordance Survey so their >>>>>>>>>>> focus
<[email protected]> wrote:
Zen Cycle <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 6:39 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:To be fair that?s one feature Strava has which is one can >>>>>>>>>>>>> see if
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/25/2025 4:00 PM, cyclintom wrote:
Indeed does seem to believe all sorts of things about the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Garmin?sOn Mon Jun 23 13:32:57 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/23/2025 11:19 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
it's possible he's having trouble getting the moving >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> average
to display.
he might need some guidance getting the datafield >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> menu, but
I'm done
helping him.
I was suffering some irritation with my new cell >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> phone. A 13-
year-old
fixed it for me within minutes.
Tom should hire a 13-year-old.
Frank, are you saying that you don't know anything about a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Garmin but
someone else should?
I have no interest in Garmins. But I'm saying _you_ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't know
enough
about your Garmin, and that today's teenagers are often >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> adept at
electronic devices and their menu systems.
But forget it. Figure it out yourself, while bitching >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that you
are right
and the rest of the universe is wrong, as you usually do. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
that a
clearly not correct!
Personally they are handy for navigation, while I use >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maps (yes
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to tell me
how
much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> achieve with
your Garmin. Training for your next race?
paper) to
plot a route a device that can keep one on that route, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this sort
of thing
is much less with roads, which are by some degree easier >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to navigate.
There was a movie called Hard Miles that came out a few >>>>>>>>>>>>>> years ago
starring Mattew Modine. The IMDB synopsis reads:
"A prison social worker assembles a cycling team of teenage >>>>>>>>>>>>>> convicts and
takes them on a transformative 1,000-mile ride. Inspired >>>>>>>>>>>>>> by the
life of
Greg Townsend and the Ridgeview Academy cycling team." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I saw it in the theater when it came out. I gave it a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> solid B/B+,
partially since it did a reasonable job in the technical >>>>>>>>>>>>>> aspects,
but it
was a good movie overall with a very positive message. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The relevant point to my response, was when Modine's >>>>>>>>>>>>>> character was
teaching the kids how to read a map - which they would >>>>>>>>>>>>>> need since they
weren't' going to be allowed to bring cellphones on the trip. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
One of the teenagers suggested they avoid a city center >>>>>>>>>>>>>> since the map
had the roads shown in red, meaning they had a lot of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> traffic. The
interaction between the two about how a paper map could >>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly be
updated in real time was hilarious.
anyone has
used a segment and this year/month/week to gauge does this >>>>>>>>>>>>> exist on the
ground and is it rideable? Names occasionally give the name >>>>>>>>>>>>> away,
segments
named Bramble tunnel for example I might avoid!
Ie that there is a right of way is one thing but is it >>>>>>>>>>>>> possible to
ride it?
The paper maps can?t tell me, sometimes I can be fairly >>>>>>>>>>>>> sure for
example
some of the rarely used stuff on the Ridgeway is open land >>>>>>>>>>>>> so be
passable.
Roger Merriman
I do use Strava etc for the social and so on aspect. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And I do prefer Strava route builder over others >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> particularly as I
do ride
routes less traveled so that?s always useful.
Roger Merriman
I haven't looked at a paper map for decades. I'm surprised >>>>>>>>>>>> that they
still make them.
is for
land and rights of way, way beyond tarmac roads, they do have >>>>>>>>>>> digital
download which is handy, as a mobile is generally more
waterproof and
easier to carry.
Google maps and similar will do little in such areas.
--Roger Merriman
C'est bon
Soloman
My experience as well. Good mapmakers are a wonderful resource. >>>>>>>>>
in _Bicycling_ explaining and praising them for bicycling,
especially
for the contour data.
When a good friend or family member moves to a new location, I >>>>>>>>> mount and
frame a 1:24000 series map of their location as a gift. If
their place
is near an edge or corner, I include the adjacent maps,
carefully fitted
together. I think the resulting wall hanging is quite beautiful. >>>>>>>>>
Uk Ordnance Survey you can buy them centred on your house etc, >>>>>>>> no digital
down load and so on but nevertheless fun.
I do also use the old online versions to find stuff that has
disappeared,
and go for an explore.
Roger Merriman
Being a it of a history nut, I like to do that, but I think old
antique maps are best for that. I have copies of old maps that show >>>>>>> the old stagecoach road that ran through two of my ancestors farms. >>>>>>
large
scale which is why Ordance Survey was set up, and there are fairly >>>>>> detailed
ones 18xx (late)
Which to be fair is often more curiosity why is that track there?
Roman and
so on roads are normally fairly clear.
When I said I haven't looked at a paper map for decades, I was
referring to using them for navigation, but I enthralled with old >>>>>>> antique maps and using them to find places with history. I used
an old
map and old books to find and hike to the place where I believe my >>>>>>> great grandfather and his cavalry mates crossed the Rappahannock >>>>>>> River
to attack Jeb Stuart. I sat on the stone fence where his brother, my >>>>>>> great uncle died.
That for me at least in the close term would probably be the world >>>>>> wars,
going further back it?s much more diluted, and sometimes on both
sides such
as Battle of Hastings and so on.
Romkan Roads were a marvel of engineering for their time. They were
dug deep and then followed with gravel and then stone. They had
better be plain because they were built to carry 4 columns next to
each other. Hadrians Wall is still there after over 2,000 years.
Virtually ALL of the roads in northern Italy are paved over Roman
roads.
WTF?
"Virtually ALL of the roads in northern Italy are paved over
Roman roads." is not even remotely believable. It's just
not true.
https://duckduckgo.com/?
q=Why+are+Belgian+cobblestone+roads+built+like+that&atb=v366-1&t=chromentp&ia=videos&iax=videos&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DkUIsFv_JNYs
Oops, https://youtu.be/kUIsFv_JNYs
Flagstone and pavers are not cobbles.
On 6/30/2025 9:41 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
My favourite navigation method is to use coarse navigation by memory,
combined with route fine-tuning by electronic devices ("Oh, this route
turning left here looks nice, is it a meaningful alternative to the
planned route turning left 2 miles up the road?").
One of the benefits of riding with a bike club is that volunteer ride
leaders take pains to show off nice roads, roads with beautiful views or items of interest. For me, the downside is having to use the car to get
to a distant starting point, plus seldom knowing exactly where I am
during the ride. Yes, I guess I could use gizmos to record those routes,
but I just don't bother.
On 6/30/2025 11:21 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Now GPS takes you to the right address andI'd insert "usually" takes you to the right address. I've had GPS and
you're not even aware of the madness.
Google Maps get very confused on occasion, telling me I'd arrived when I >absolutely had not.
Tonight I drove home from a city about an hour away. My car's navigation >system was very upset that I was proceeding on a closed road. But the
road was perfectly fine.
On Mon, 30 Jun 2025 23:16:56 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/30/2025 11:21 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Now GPS takes you to the right address andI'd insert "usually" takes you to the right address. I've had GPS and
you're not even aware of the madness.
Google Maps get very confused on occasion, telling me I'd arrived when I
absolutely had not.
Tonight I drove home from a city about an hour away. My car's navigation
system was very upset that I was proceeding on a closed road. But the
road was perfectly fine.
Nonsense.....
Personal anecdotes don't prove your point, especially when you make
them up.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jun 2025 23:16:56 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/30/2025 11:21 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Now GPS takes you to the right address andI'd insert "usually" takes you to the right address. I've had GPS and
you're not even aware of the madness.
Google Maps get very confused on occasion, telling me I'd arrived when I >>> absolutely had not.
Tonight I drove home from a city about an hour away. My car's navigation >>> system was very upset that I was proceeding on a closed road. But the
road was perfectly fine.
Nonsense.....
Personal anecdotes don't prove your point, especially when you make
them up.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
No that�s my experience in areas such as Wales/Brecon Beacons where such >devices do get confused, around London/Surrey and areas like Florida I�m
sure as has the population density.
Hence stuff like Komoot being much less useful in such places as it just >gives a blank map not showing the paths/roads I know exist, which gives no >confidence with ones that I don�t!
Roger Merriman
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jun 2025 23:16:56 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/30/2025 11:21 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Now GPS takes you to the right address andI'd insert "usually" takes you to the right address. I've had GPS and
you're not even aware of the madness.
Google Maps get very confused on occasion, telling me I'd arrived when I >>> absolutely had not.
Tonight I drove home from a city about an hour away. My car's navigation >>> system was very upset that I was proceeding on a closed road. But the
road was perfectly fine.
Nonsense.....
Personal anecdotes don't prove your point, especially when you make
them up.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
No that’s my experience in areas such as Wales/Brecon Beacons where such devices do get confused, around London/Surrey and areas like Florida I’m sure as has the population density.
Hence stuff like Komoot being much less useful in such places as it just gives a blank map not showing the paths/roads I know exist, which gives no confidence with ones that I don’t!
Roger Merriman
On 1 Jul 2025 09:28:29 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jun 2025 23:16:56 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/30/2025 11:21 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Now GPS takes you to the right address andI'd insert "usually" takes you to the right address. I've had GPS and
you're not even aware of the madness.
Google Maps get very confused on occasion, telling me I'd arrived when I >>>> absolutely had not.
Tonight I drove home from a city about an hour away. My car's navigation >>>> system was very upset that I was proceeding on a closed road. But the >>>> road was perfectly fine.
Nonsense.....
Personal anecdotes don't prove your point, especially when you make
them up.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
No thats my experience in areas such as Wales/Brecon Beacons where such
devices do get confused, around London/Surrey and areas like Florida Im
sure as has the population density.
Hence stuff like Komoot being much less useful in such places as it just
gives a blank map not showing the paths/roads I know exist, which gives no >> confidence with ones that I dont!
Roger Merriman
I've been using GPS for decades and I've never had one lead me astray.
Many times it's led me through narrow channels and directly up to a
dock or mooring in total darkness or fog. Any errors you might have
noticed would be due to the quality of the maps, not the GPS.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
On 6/29/2025 8:12 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
.... But I'm still thinking about taking this compass with me
anyway. If there's still room in the saddlebag, 50 g won't make any
difference.
I bought one of these: >https://www.rei.com/product/857612/suunto-clipper-lb-nh-compass
It clips nicely on the trailing edge of my handlebar bag's top. I used
it a couple times on this morning's ride, to some roads I haven't ridden
for quite a while.
On 1 Jul 2025 09:28:29 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jun 2025 23:16:56 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/30/2025 11:21 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Now GPS takes you to the right address andI'd insert "usually" takes you to the right address. I've had GPS and
you're not even aware of the madness.
Google Maps get very confused on occasion, telling me I'd arrived when I >>>> absolutely had not.
Tonight I drove home from a city about an hour away. My car's navigation >>>> system was very upset that I was proceeding on a closed road. But the >>>> road was perfectly fine.
Nonsense.....
Personal anecdotes don't prove your point, especially when you make
them up.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
No that�s my experience in areas such as Wales/Brecon Beacons where such >>devices do get confused, around London/Surrey and areas like Florida I�m >>sure as has the population density.
Hence stuff like Komoot being much less useful in such places as it just >>gives a blank map not showing the paths/roads I know exist, which gives no >>confidence with ones that I don�t!
Roger Merriman
I've been using GPS for decades and I've never had one lead me astray.
Many times it's led me through narrow channels and directly up to a
dock or mooring in total darkness or fog. Any errors you might have
noticed would be due to the quality of the maps, not the GPS.
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 1 Jul 2025 09:28:29 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jun 2025 23:16:56 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/30/2025 11:21 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Now GPS takes you to the right address andI'd insert "usually" takes you to the right address. I've had GPS and >>>>> Google Maps get very confused on occasion, telling me I'd arrived when I >>>>> absolutely had not.
you're not even aware of the madness.
Tonight I drove home from a city about an hour away. My car's navigation >>>>> system was very upset that I was proceeding on a closed road. But the >>>>> road was perfectly fine.
Nonsense.....
Personal anecdotes don't prove your point, especially when you make
them up.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
No that?s my experience in areas such as Wales/Brecon Beacons where such >>> devices do get confused, around London/Surrey and areas like Florida I?m >>> sure as has the population density.
Hence stuff like Komoot being much less useful in such places as it just >>> gives a blank map not showing the paths/roads I know exist, which gives no >>> confidence with ones that I don?t!
Roger Merriman
I've been using GPS for decades and I've never had one lead me astray.
Many times it's led me through narrow channels and directly up to a
dock or mooring in total darkness or fog. Any errors you might have
noticed would be due to the quality of the maps, not the GPS.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
Which is what Frank was talking about! Ie the car sat nav saying it�s a >closed road, which absolutely happens in less built up areas, I find that >modern Satnavs cope well with satellite drop outs, and keep with prompts, >back to maps really in urban/suburban areas absolutely maps even free stuff >like google maps works fine, but not so much once it�s more rural or into
the hills where it doesn�t.
Roger Merriman
On Tue, 01 Jul 2025 06:06:56 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 1 Jul 2025 09:28:29 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jun 2025 23:16:56 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/30/2025 11:21 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Now GPS takes you to the right address andI'd insert "usually" takes you to the right address. I've had GPS and >>>>> Google Maps get very confused on occasion, telling me I'd arrived when I >>>>> absolutely had not.
you're not even aware of the madness.
Tonight I drove home from a city about an hour away. My car's navigation >>>>> system was very upset that I was proceeding on a closed road. But the >>>>> road was perfectly fine.
Nonsense.....
Personal anecdotes don't prove your point, especially when you make
them up.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
No that�s my experience in areas such as Wales/Brecon Beacons where such >>>devices do get confused, around London/Surrey and areas like Florida I�m >>>sure as has the population density.
Hence stuff like Komoot being much less useful in such places as it just >>>gives a blank map not showing the paths/roads I know exist, which gives no >>>confidence with ones that I don�t!
Roger Merriman
I've been using GPS for decades and I've never had one lead me astray.
Many times it's led me through narrow channels and directly up to a
dock or mooring in total darkness or fog. Any errors you might have >>noticed would be due to the quality of the maps, not the GPS.
Back when GPS first was becoming popular on sailing boats a good
friend used to complain that when anchored in a favorite spot in the >Philippines his GPS showed him to ashore about 100 yards :-)
eGood, up to date navigation charts are a requirement for good use of
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 1 Jul 2025 09:28:29 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jun 2025 23:16:56 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/30/2025 11:21 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Now GPS takes you to the right address andI'd insert "usually" takes you to the right address. I've had GPS and >>>>> Google Maps get very confused on occasion, telling me I'd arrived when I >>>>> absolutely had not.
you're not even aware of the madness.
Tonight I drove home from a city about an hour away. My car's navigation >>>>> system was very upset that I was proceeding on a closed road. But the >>>>> road was perfectly fine.
Nonsense.....
Personal anecdotes don't prove your point, especially when you make
them up.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
No thats my experience in areas such as Wales/Brecon Beacons where such >>> devices do get confused, around London/Surrey and areas like Florida Im >>> sure as has the population density.
Hence stuff like Komoot being much less useful in such places as it just >>> gives a blank map not showing the paths/roads I know exist, which gives no >>> confidence with ones that I dont!
Roger Merriman
I've been using GPS for decades and I've never had one lead me astray.
Many times it's led me through narrow channels and directly up to a
dock or mooring in total darkness or fog. Any errors you might have
noticed would be due to the quality of the maps, not the GPS.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
Which is what Frank was talking about! Ie the car sat nav saying it’s a closed road, which absolutely happens in less built up areas, I find that modern Satnavs cope well with satellite drop outs, and keep with prompts, back to maps really in urban/suburban areas absolutely maps even free stuff like google maps works fine, but not so much once it’s more rural or into the hills where it doesn’t.
Roger Merriman
On 7/1/2025 10:30 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
his response was "yeah....gps doesn't really work out here...."
We got exactly the same remark during a trip to Cape Breton a few years
ago. We were following a coastal road when the GPS instructed us to turn
left and head uphill. I stopped and checked a paper map. The road to the
left was gravel, and would have taken us on an empty loop that returned
to the paved coastal road a few miles up ahead.
I suppose if a person uses his GPS mostly to go out and back on a flat
bike path, he'd find it to be perfectly reliable.
On 7/1/2025 11:16 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 10:30 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
his response was "yeah....gps doesn't really work out here...."
We got exactly the same remark during a trip to Cape Breton a few years
ago. We were following a coastal road when the GPS instructed us to turn
left and head uphill. I stopped and checked a paper map. The road to the
left was gravel, and would have taken us on an empty loop that returned
to the paved coastal road a few miles up ahead.
To be clear it isn't really the fault of the GPS, it's the mapping data
in the app. GPS is GPS, it will always tell you with an amazing amount
of certainty where you are (given reasonable satellite visibility*).
What it can't do is get you to a certain location based on an address or
road name if that data has not been loaded into the app properly. GIGO.
I suppose if a person uses his GPS mostly to go out and back on a flat
bike path, he'd find it to be perfectly reliable.
* but then, there's this:
https://www.popsci.com/technology/google-gps-map/
On 7/1/2025 10:30 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
his response was "yeah....gps doesn't really work out
here...."
We got exactly the same remark during a trip to Cape Breton a few years
ago. We were following a coastal road when the GPS instructed us to turn
left and head uphill. I stopped and checked a paper map. The road to the
left was gravel, and would have taken us on an empty loop that returned
to the paved coastal road a few miles up ahead.
I suppose if a person uses his GPS mostly to go out and back on a flat
bike path, he'd find it to be perfectly reliable.
On 7/1/2025 6:27 AM, zen cycle wrote:
On 7/1/2025 5:28 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jun 2025 23:16:56 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/30/2025 11:21 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Now GPS takes you to the right address andI'd insert "usually" takes you to the right address. I've had GPS and >>>>> Google Maps get very confused on occasion, telling me I'd arrived
you're not even aware of the madness.
when I
absolutely had not.
Tonight I drove home from a city about an hour away. My car's
navigation
system was very upset that I was proceeding on a closed road.� But the >>>>> road was perfectly fine.
Nonsense.....
Personal anecdotes don't prove your point, especially when you make
them up.
and as usual you add nothing to the cnversation
He adds evidence of his continuing obsession with me!
On 7/1/2025 11:16 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 10:30 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
�his response was "yeah....gps doesn't really work out here...."
We got exactly the same remark during a trip to Cape Breton a few years
ago. We were following a coastal road when the GPS instructed us to turn
left and head uphill. I stopped and checked a paper map. The road to the
left was gravel, and would have taken us on an empty loop that returned
to the paved coastal road a few miles up ahead.
To be clear it isn't really the fault of the GPS, it's the mapping data
in the app. GPS is GPS, it will always tell you with an amazing amount
of certainty where you are (given reasonable satellite visibility*).
What it can't do is get you to a certain location based on an address or
road name if that data has not been loaded into the app properly. GIGO.
I suppose if a person uses his GPS mostly to go out and back on a flat
bike path, he'd find it to be perfectly reliable.
* but then, there's this:
https://www.popsci.com/technology/google-gps-map/
On Tue, 1 Jul 2025 11:16:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 7/1/2025 10:30 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
his response was "yeah....gps doesn't really work out
here...."
We got exactly the same remark during a trip to Cape Breton a few years
ago. We were following a coastal road when the GPS instructed us to turn
left and head uphill. I stopped and checked a paper map. The road to the
left was gravel, and would have taken us on an empty loop that returned
to the paved coastal road a few miles up ahead.
Another undocumented anecdote?
Here's some facts.... A paper map can't tell you where you are and
how far from where you want to be.
I suppose if a person uses his GPS mostly to go out and back on a flat
bike path, he'd find it to be perfectly reliable.
My GPS worked fine in Mexico, Honduras, and all over the Caribbean.
There aren't any maps out on the ocean.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
floriduh dumbass wrote:
On Tue, 1 Jul 2025 11:16:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 7/1/2025 10:30 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
his response was "yeah....gps doesn't really work out
here...."
We got exactly the same remark during a trip to Cape Breton a few years
ago. We were following a coastal road when the GPS instructed us to turn >>> left and head uphill. I stopped and checked a paper map. The road to the >>> left was gravel, and would have taken us on an empty loop that returned
to the paved coastal road a few miles up ahead.
Another undocumented anecdote?
Here's some facts.... A paper map can't tell you where you are and
how far from where you want to be.
I suppose if a person uses his GPS mostly to go out and back on a flat
bike path, he'd find it to be perfectly reliable.
My GPS worked fine in Mexico, Honduras, and all over the Caribbean.
There aren't any maps out on the ocean.
Charts? There absolutely are areas that are unwise to sail into, for what ever reasons, but absolutely are maps of the sea.
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On Tue, 1 Jul 2025 11:16:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 7/1/2025 10:30 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
his response was "yeah....gps doesn't really work out
here...."
We got exactly the same remark during a trip to Cape Breton a few years
ago. We were following a coastal road when the GPS instructed us to turn >>> left and head uphill. I stopped and checked a paper map. The road to the >>> left was gravel, and would have taken us on an empty loop that returned
to the paved coastal road a few miles up ahead.
Another undocumented anecdote?
Here's some facts.... A paper map can't tell you where you are and
how far from where you want to be.
I suppose if a person uses his GPS mostly to go out and back on a flat
bike path, he'd find it to be perfectly reliable.
My GPS worked fine in Mexico, Honduras, and all over the Caribbean.
There aren't any maps out on the ocean.
Charts? There absolutely are areas that are unwise to sail into, for what >ever reasons, but absolutely are maps of the sea.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
Roger Merriman
On 7/1/2025 1:13 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
floriduh dumbass wrote:
On Tue, 1 Jul 2025 11:16:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 7/1/2025 10:30 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
his response was "yeah....gps doesn't really work out
here...."
We got exactly the same remark during a trip to Cape Breton a few years >>>> ago. We were following a coastal road when the GPS instructed us to turn >>>> left and head uphill. I stopped and checked a paper map. The road to the >>>> left was gravel, and would have taken us on an empty loop that returned >>>> to the paved coastal road a few miles up ahead.
Another undocumented anecdote?
It's called conversation, dumbass. If you don't want to participate,
shut the fuck up. You're only re-enforcing your image of a pathetic
loser with an obsession for Frank.
Here's some facts.... A paper map can't tell you where you are and
how far from where you want to be.
I suppose if a person uses his GPS mostly to go out and back on a flat >>>> bike path, he'd find it to be perfectly reliable.
My GPS worked fine in Mexico, Honduras, and all over the Caribbean.
There aren't any maps out on the ocean.
yet another undocumented anecdote from the floriduh dumbass.
Charts? There absolutely are areas that are unwise to sail into, for what
ever reasons, but absolutely are maps of the sea.
Proof of yet more imaginary tales from the dumbass. If he was ever
really out sailing in the Caribbean (or sailing anywhere) he'd know
that nautical maps are practically a requirement.
gawd what a fucking loser....
On 7/1/2025 7:24 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Sun, 29 Jun 2025 16:16:12 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]>:
I bought one of these:
https://www.rei.com/product/857612/suunto-clipper-lb-nh-compass
I don't use any compass near the handlebar, because the magnets that
have replaced the sluggish press studs on the current Ortlieb handlebar
bag confuse the compass.
I designed and built my handlebar bag.
I was concerned enough about
compasses that I made sure all the hardware is stainless steel or aluminum.
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
:-) Wait! Wait! Our timid tricyclist just tossed out an UNDOCUMENTED >anecdote! There's no proof he's been "out there" in the ocean.
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no
markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I
would have seen them.....
Logical consistency? Nope, he's lacking that too.
(This post will probably juice up his obsession with me even further!)
On 7/1/2025 1:26 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:13 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:He can't stop. Maybe a some intense therapy could help? I don't know.
floriduh dumbass wrote:
On Tue, 1 Jul 2025 11:16:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 7/1/2025 10:30 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
his response was "yeah....gps doesn't really work out
here...."
We got exactly the same remark during a trip to Cape Breton a few years >>>>> ago. We were following a coastal road when the GPS instructed us to
turn
left and head uphill. I stopped and checked a paper map. The road to >>>>> the
left was gravel, and would have taken us on an empty loop that returned >>>>> to the paved coastal road a few miles up ahead.
Another undocumented anecdote?
It's called conversation, dumbass. If you don't want to participate,
shut the fuck up. You're only re-enforcing your image of a pathetic
loser with an obsession for Frank.
That's not my field.
But as others have said, his obsession with me doesn't make him look good.
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no
markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I
would have seen them.....
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no
markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I
would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Am 29.06.2025 um 14:45 schrieb Wolfgang Strobl:
Am Sat, 28 Jun 2025 17:42:35 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]>:
I've read that such navigation skills are on the wane. People who rely
on GPS mapping tend to lose their ability to form conceptual maps and
find their way around.
Not sure about that. IMHO there are two modes: memorizing a course and
using your memory to recognize waypoints, or using an electronic map
with a course and an indication of your current position. I my
experience it takes quite some time to switch between those two modes,
which might give the impression that you've lost the other mode.
After some experiments with riding both by memory _and_ using the
electronic map as a guidance, I formed a habit to avoid a switch as much
as possible.
My favourite navigation method is to use coarse navigation by memory, >combined with route fine-tuning by electronic devices ("Oh, this route >turning left here looks nice, is it a meaningful alternative to the
planned route turning left 2 miles up the road?").
I sometimes fail in the car when the road I want to turn into
unexpectedly turns out to be a small farm lane (on the bicycle, aligning >expectations with reality usually is fast enough to not miss a turn).
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no
markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I
would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no
markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I
would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean
voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only >available where there is some land to use as a reference.
On Wed, 02 Jul 2025 17:51:18 -0700, John B.
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]> >>wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>>>> markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I >>>>> would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean >>voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only >>available where there is some land to use as a reference.
Indeed... ...and what purpose would they have far away from any land
or shallow water?
https://charts.noaa.gov/InteractiveCatalog/nrnc.shtml
On Tue, 01 Jul 2025 06:06:56 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 1 Jul 2025 09:28:29 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jun 2025 23:16:56 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/30/2025 11:21 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Now GPS takes you to the right address andI'd insert "usually" takes you to the right address. I've had GPS and >>>>> Google Maps get very confused on occasion, telling me I'd arrived when I >>>>> absolutely had not.
you're not even aware of the madness.
Tonight I drove home from a city about an hour away. My car's navigation >>>>> system was very upset that I was proceeding on a closed road. But the >>>>> road was perfectly fine.
Nonsense.....
Personal anecdotes don't prove your point, especially when you make
them up.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
No that’s my experience in areas such as Wales/Brecon Beacons where such >>> devices do get confused, around London/Surrey and areas like Florida I’m >>> sure as has the population density.
Hence stuff like Komoot being much less useful in such places as it just >>> gives a blank map not showing the paths/roads I know exist, which gives no >>> confidence with ones that I don’t!
Roger Merriman
I've been using GPS for decades and I've never had one lead me astray.
Many times it's led me through narrow channels and directly up to a
dock or mooring in total darkness or fog. Any errors you might have
noticed would be due to the quality of the maps, not the GPS.
Back when GPS first was becoming popular on sailing boats a good
friend used to complain that when anchored in a favorite spot in the Philippines his GPS showed him to ashore about 100 yards :-)
e
--
cheers,
John B.
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 04:44:21 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jul 2025 17:51:18 -0700, John B.
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]> >>>wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>>>>> markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I >>>>>> would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean >>>voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only >>>available where there is some land to use as a reference.
Indeed... ...and what purpose would they have far away from any land
or shallow water?
https://charts.noaa.gov/InteractiveCatalog/nrnc.shtml
Particularity in a sail boat when the best you can do is point the
boat in about the right direction and hope :-)
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no
markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I
would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean
voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only available where there is some land to use as a reference.
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 04:44:21 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jul 2025 17:51:18 -0700, John B.
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>>>>> markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I >>>>>> would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean
voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only
available where there is some land to use as a reference.
Indeed... ...and what purpose would they have far away from any land
or shallow water?
https://charts.noaa.gov/InteractiveCatalog/nrnc.shtml
Particularity in a sail boat when the best you can do is point the
boat in about the right direction and hope :-)
On 7/2/2025 8:51 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>>>> markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I >>>>> would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean
voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only
available where there is some land to use as a reference.
I can assure you charts are available for every last square foot of the >earth, and that includes oceans.
Someone standing on a sail boat might be able to see something on the
horizon 5-6 miles away.
Here's a chart of the Gulf of Mexico:
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11006OG
If you're at 25N, 87W, you're about 200 miles from the nearest land
mass. You aren't going to see anything but water, yet here is a map of
the ocean at that location.
Yes, there's a land reference on the chart, but it doesn't do you much
good if you can't see it. The dumbasses claim "there aren't any maps out
on the ocean because there are no markers out in the ocean" is stupid
and wrong.
.
On 7/3/2025 5:45 AM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 04:44:21 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jul 2025 17:51:18 -0700, John B.
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>>>>>> markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I >>>>>>> would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean >>>> voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only
available where there is some land to use as a reference.
Indeed... ...and what purpose would they have far away from any land
or shallow water?
https://charts.noaa.gov/InteractiveCatalog/nrnc.shtml
In which the dumbass claims there are no charts of the ocean, then
proceeds to post a link which shows charts of the ocean.
Particularity in a sail boat when the best you can do is point the
boat in about the right direction and hope :-)
Then you must have gone to the same sailing school as tommy as well.
On 7/2/2025 8:51 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>>>> markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I >>>>> would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean
voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only
available where there is some land to use as a reference.
I can assure you charts are available for every last square foot of the >earth, and that includes oceans.
Someone standing on a sail boat might be able to see something on the
horizon 5-6 miles away.
Here's a chart of the Gulf of Mexico:
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11006OG
If you're at 25N, 87W, you're about 200 miles from the nearest land
mass. You aren't going to see anything but water, yet here is a map of
the ocean at that location.
Yes, there's a land reference on the chart, but it doesn't do you much
good if you can't see it. The dumbasses claim "there aren't any maps out
on the ocean because there are no markers out in the ocean" is stupid
and wrong.
On Thu, 3 Jul 2025 08:52:17 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 7/2/2025 8:51 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>>>>> markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I >>>>>> would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean
voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only
available where there is some land to use as a reference.
I can assure you charts are available for every last square foot of the >>earth, and that includes oceans.
Someone standing on a sail boat might be able to see something on the >>horizon 5-6 miles away.
Here's a chart of the Gulf of Mexico:
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11006OG
If you're at 25N, 87W, you're about 200 miles from the nearest land
mass. You aren't going to see anything but water, yet here is a map of
the ocean at that location.
Yes, there's a land reference on the chart, but it doesn't do you much
good if you can't see it. The dumbasses claim "there aren't any maps out
on the ocean because there are no markers out in the ocean" is stupid
and wrong.
You are getting all carried away.
In more detail there are no charts (navel term for map) covering
solely open ocean, which the original poster was trying to get across.
your reference above was to land reference to water.
Your reference to seeing or not seeing simply shows why one uses a
chart. If you can see then why would you need a chart?
On Thu, 3 Jul 2025 08:52:17 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 7/2/2025 8:51 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>>>>> markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I >>>>>> would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean
voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only
available where there is some land to use as a reference.
I can assure you charts are available for every last square foot of the
earth, and that includes oceans.
Someone standing on a sail boat might be able to see something on the
horizon 5-6 miles away.
Here's a chart of the Gulf of Mexico:
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11006OG
If you're at 25N, 87W, you're about 200 miles from the nearest land
mass. You aren't going to see anything but water, yet here is a map of
the ocean at that location.
Yes, there's a land reference on the chart, but it doesn't do you much
good if you can't see it. The dumbasses claim "there aren't any maps out
on the ocean because there are no markers out in the ocean" is stupid
and wrong.
You are getting all carried away.
In more detail there are no charts (navel term for map) covering
solely open ocean, which the original poster was trying to get across.
your reference above was to land reference to water.
Your reference to seeing or not seeing simply shows why one uses a
chart. If you can see then why would you need a chart?
On 7/3/2025 9:43 AM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 3 Jul 2025 08:52:17 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 7/2/2025 8:51 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>>>>>> markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I >>>>>>> would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean >>>> voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only
available where there is some land to use as a reference.
I can assure you charts are available for every last square foot of the
earth, and that includes oceans.
Someone standing on a sail boat might be able to see something on the
horizon 5-6 miles away.
Here's a chart of the Gulf of Mexico:
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11006OG
If you're at 25N, 87W, you're about 200 miles from the nearest land
mass. You aren't going to see anything but water, yet here is a map of
the ocean at that location.
Yes, there's a land reference on the chart, but it doesn't do you much
good if you can't see it. The dumbasses claim "there aren't any maps out >>> on the ocean because there are no markers out in the ocean" is stupid
and wrong.
You are getting all carried away.
In more detail there are no charts (navel term for map) covering
solely open ocean, which the original poster was trying to get across.
I don't believe that to be the case. He very clearly is under the
incorrect conclusion that his GPS guidance doesn't correlate to
underwater mapping.
your reference above was to land reference to water.
Your reference to seeing or not seeing simply shows why one uses a
chart. If you can see then why would you need a chart?
Because you can't see underwater obstructions from the helm - especially >dangerous when piloting a sailboat with the keel extended. Marine GPS
has depths mapped.
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 04:44:21 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jul 2025 17:51:18 -0700, John B.
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>>>>> markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I >>>>>> would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean
voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only
available where there is some land to use as a reference.
Indeed... ...and what purpose would they have far away from any land
or shallow water?
https://charts.noaa.gov/InteractiveCatalog/nrnc.shtml
Particularity in a sail boat when the best you can do is point the
boat in about the right direction and hope :-)
--
cheers,
John B.
John B. <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 04:44:21 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jul 2025 17:51:18 -0700, John B.
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>>>>>> markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I >>>>>>> would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean >>>> voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only
available where there is some land to use as a reference.
Indeed... ...and what purpose would they have far away from any land
or shallow water?
https://charts.noaa.gov/InteractiveCatalog/nrnc.shtml
Particularity in a sail boat when the best you can do is point the
boat in about the right direction and hope :-)
--
cheers,
John B.
That�s not my experience, but the Severn has large tidal ranges, and areas >you�d not want to get stuck in and so on. Not necessarily that difficult
but you certainly need to be aware of where and when you are and when
you�ll arrive.
Roger Merriman
On 7/3/2025 5:45 AM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 04:44:21 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jul 2025 17:51:18 -0700, John B.
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>>>>>> markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I >>>>>>> would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean >>>> voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only
available where there is some land to use as a reference.
Indeed... ...and what purpose would they have far away from any land
or shallow water?
https://charts.noaa.gov/InteractiveCatalog/nrnc.shtml
In which the dumbass claims there are no charts of the ocean, then
proceeds to post a link which shows charts of the ocean.
Particularity in a sail boat when the best you can do is point the
boat in about the right direction and hope :-)
Then you must have gone to the same sailing school as tommy as well.
On 3 Jul 2025 17:33:22 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
John B. <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 04:44:21 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jul 2025 17:51:18 -0700, John B.
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>>>>>>> markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I >>>>>>>> would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean >>>>> voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only >>>>> available where there is some land to use as a reference.
Indeed... ...and what purpose would they have far away from any land >>>> or shallow water?
https://charts.noaa.gov/InteractiveCatalog/nrnc.shtml
Particularity in a sail boat when the best you can do is point the
boat in about the right direction and hope :-)
--
cheers,
John B.
Thats not my experience, but the Severn has large tidal ranges, and areas >> youd not want to get stuck in and so on. Not necessarily that difficult
but you certainly need to be aware of where and when you are and when
youll arrive.
Roger Merriman
I think John B was referring to sailing on open water far away from
any land mass, and thus far away from where navigation charts would
have any value.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
On 6/27/2025 3:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2025 8:44 AM, AMuzi wrote:
For Wisconsin, the Milwaukee Maps Service quadrant maps show every
county road with road names clearly, which is difficult for online maps. >>
https://shop.milwaukeemap.com/regional-3
DeLorme is a publisher that prints large scale "Atlas and Gazetter" maps for most or all U.S. states: https://randpublishing.com/delorme/
The Ohio version is at 1:150,000 scale (about 2.4 miles per inch) and detailed enough to show every country road and even many street names in tiny villages. I've used it extensively planning several bike tours.
Most notable was a tour we did from the Ohio River to Lake Erie,
following the roads as close as possible to the route of Ohio's first canal, the Ohio & Erie. In the southern half of the state the canal is given very little recognition, so it was hard to find the proper roads.
I used DeLorme to find things like "Canal Street" or "Lock Road" in
small towns to get clues.
That was a historically interesting tour. It was fun riding along some quiet country road, then saying "Look! There's an old canal lock over
there in the woods!"
Same story in my area. There were canals dug for long distance transport
just before the railroad boom that had roads along side for draft
animals to tow the barges upstream. Many of the roads still exist today
with remnants of the canals still visible (Modern maps don't show these features), in some cases still with water flowing.
I spent many many hours on my mtn bike in the 1980s exploring the old Middlesex Canal portion which linked the Concord river in Billerica to
the Merrimac river in Lowell (the whole canal ran 22 milesfrom Charlestown(boston) to lowell) - most of it overgrown with sections
through abandoned industrial sites. Parts of the tow road became the Middlesex Turnpike in Billerica and Burlington - a high tech hot-spot to
this day.
The City of Nashua, NH was a significant manufacturing center in the
19th and early 20th century with a prominent canal and lock system to
get goods around a waterfall as well as provide hydro power for the
mills. Today it's a park with walking/biking trails along both sides of
the canal.
https://www.nashuanh.gov/DocumentCenter/View/2328/Mine-Falls-Park-Trail-Map-PDF?bidId=
Am 29.06.2025 um 15:22 schrieb Ted Heise:
In the US, you can usually find Department of Transportation maps
by county. They show all the roads at a reasonably useful scale.
For my year in Minneapolis, I felt the "A - Z Road Atlas" overed all my
needs (day rides up to 60 miles centered in Minneapolis). IIRC, it
contained the public paths in the state parks in the region as well.
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 3 Jul 2025 17:33:22 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:And yet for example if I wanted to sail to Florida the Admiralty (and
John B. <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 04:44:21 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jul 2025 17:51:18 -0700, John B.
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>>>>>>>> markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I >>>>>>>>> would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean >>>>>> voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only >>>>>> available where there is some land to use as a reference.
Indeed... ...and what purpose would they have far away from any land >>>>> or shallow water?
https://charts.noaa.gov/InteractiveCatalog/nrnc.shtml
Particularity in a sail boat when the best you can do is point the
boat in about the right direction and hope :-)
--
cheers,
John B.
That?s not my experience, but the Severn has large tidal ranges, and areas >>> you?d not want to get stuck in and so on. Not necessarily that difficult >>> but you certainly need to be aware of where and when you are and when
you?ll arrive.
Roger Merriman
I think John B was referring to sailing on open water far away from
any land mass, and thus far away from where navigation charts would
have any value.
others) would sell me not only charts of the coast and larger areas around, >but also the North Atlantic passage, as they seem to for all number of >oceans.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
Roger Merriman
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no
markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I
would have seen them.....
There are charts in around land forms where you can have markers. You
could have coordinates out on the ocean and sail towards them, but
maps out on the ocean would be usless.
On Thu, 3 Jul 2025 08:55:11 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 7/3/2025 5:45 AM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 04:44:21 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jul 2025 17:51:18 -0700, John B.
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>>>>>>> markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I >>>>>>>> would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean >>>>> voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only >>>>> available where there is some land to use as a reference.
Indeed... ...and what purpose would they have far away from any land >>>> or shallow water?
https://charts.noaa.gov/InteractiveCatalog/nrnc.shtml
In which the dumbass claims there are no charts of the ocean, then
proceeds to post a link which shows charts of the ocean.
Particularity in a sail boat when the best you can do is point the
boat in about the right direction and hope :-)
Then you must have gone to the same sailing school as tommy as well.
No, I lived on a boat and sailed pretty much in Asia, as I said from
Thailand to Australia, and return.
And there are no charts of solely open ocean as the Florida Guy said
Stop and think for a moment... you depart England bound for the US. By
the first or second day you are out of sight of land with a number of
days sailing before you reach the other side, nothing in sight but
water.... and you want a chart?
--
cheers,
John B.
On Tue, 01 Jul 2025 13:47:09 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I
would have seen them.....
Such "markers" are not floating on the surface of the water. They're
part of the topography of the ocean bottom. The "markers" that are
just below the water surface are called "navigation hazards" and
appear on most nautical maps.
Incidentally, these are underwater "markers": ><https://www.google.com/search?q=underwater%20markers&udm=2>
Some examples of nautical maps of the ocean bottoms.
Gulf of Mexico topographic map: ><https://www.google.com/search?q=gulf%20of%20mexico%20topographic%20map&num=10&udm=2>
Topo map of Gulf of Mexico showing pipelines: ><https://www.google.com/search?q=gulf%20of%20mexico%20topographic%20map%20showing%20pipelines&num=10&udm=2>
Fiber Optic Submarine Cable Maps. ><https://www.google.com/search?q=fiber%20optic%20submarine%20cable%20map&num=10&udm=2>
European Natural Gas Network (some of which is under water): ><https://www.entsog.eu/maps>
<https://www.gie.eu/publications/maps/>
This one is nice. Notice all the underwater pipelines on the map: ><https://www.entsog.eu/sites/default/files/2025-01/ENTSOG_GIE_SYSCAP_2025_1600x1200_FULL_114_FLAT.pdf>
There are charts in around land forms where you can have markers. You
could have coordinates out on the ocean and sail towards them, but
maps out on the ocean would be usless.
Useless? To a vessel floating on the surface that has only minimum >navigation tools (compass, sextant, binoculars, gas station road maps,
etc), nautical topographic maps would certainly be useless. However,
a vessel with the appropriate instruments (GPS and depth sounder), a >topographic map of the ocean bottom is useful for determining where to
safely drop anchor, where to avoid so as not to drag anchor, how to
locate marine protected areas: ><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_protected_area>
etc).
John B. <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, 3 Jul 2025 08:55:11 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 7/3/2025 5:45 AM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 04:44:21 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jul 2025 17:51:18 -0700, John B.
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>>>>>>>> markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I >>>>>>>>> would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean >>>>>> voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only >>>>>> available where there is some land to use as a reference.
Indeed... ...and what purpose would they have far away from any land >>>>> or shallow water?
https://charts.noaa.gov/InteractiveCatalog/nrnc.shtml
In which the dumbass claims there are no charts of the ocean, then
proceeds to post a link which shows charts of the ocean.
Particularity in a sail boat when the best you can do is point the
boat in about the right direction and hope :-)
Then you must have gone to the same sailing school as tommy as well.
No, I lived on a boat and sailed pretty much in Asia, as I said from
Thailand to Australia, and return.
And there are no charts of solely open ocean as the Florida Guy said
Stop and think for a moment... you depart England bound for the US. By
the first or second day you are out of sight of land with a number of
days sailing before you reach the other side, nothing in sight but
water.... and you want a chart?
And yet they are made and sold, as for some the depth or nature of the sea >bed is important, and so on, will all need that? No but such charts exist
and are sold for folks who do.
--Roger Merriman
cheers,
John B.
That's the same video, just a direct link instead of the search. Still
no mention of Italy. Still no mention of "Virtually ALL of the roads in [insert region] are paved over Roman roads."
Stop and think for a moment... you depart England bound for the US. By
the first or second day you are out of sight of land with a number of
days sailing before you reach the other side, nothing in sight but
water.... and you want a chart?
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 13:00:23 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jul 2025 13:47:09 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>>markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I >>>would have seen them.....
Such "markers" are not floating on the surface of the water. They're
part of the topography of the ocean bottom. The "markers" that are
just below the water surface are called "navigation hazards" and
appear on most nautical maps.
Incidentally, these are underwater "markers": >><https://www.google.com/search?q=underwater%20markers&udm=2>
Some examples of nautical maps of the ocean bottoms.
Gulf of Mexico topographic map: >><https://www.google.com/search?q=gulf%20of%20mexico%20topographic%20map&num=10&udm=2>
Topo map of Gulf of Mexico showing pipelines: >><https://www.google.com/search?q=gulf%20of%20mexico%20topographic%20map%20showing%20pipelines&num=10&udm=2>
Fiber Optic Submarine Cable Maps. >><https://www.google.com/search?q=fiber%20optic%20submarine%20cable%20map&num=10&udm=2>
European Natural Gas Network (some of which is under water): >><https://www.entsog.eu/maps>
<https://www.gie.eu/publications/maps/>
This one is nice. Notice all the underwater pipelines on the map: >><https://www.entsog.eu/sites/default/files/2025-01/ENTSOG_GIE_SYSCAP_2025_1600x1200_FULL_114_FLAT.pdf>
There are charts in around land forms where you can have markers. You >>>could have coordinates out on the ocean and sail towards them, but
maps out on the ocean would be usless.
Useless? To a vessel floating on the surface that has only minimum >>navigation tools (compass, sextant, binoculars, gas station road maps, >>etc), nautical topographic maps would certainly be useless. However,
a vessel with the appropriate instruments (GPS and depth sounder), a >>topographic map of the ocean bottom is useful for determining where to >>safely drop anchor, where to avoid so as not to drag anchor, how to
locate marine protected areas: >><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_protected_area>
etc).
Jeff, dropping the anchor out on the open ocean would be ridiculous.
As John B said, useful nautical charts exist around bodies of land and
where the depth and underwater obstacles can be a problem. Out on the
open ocean none of those issues exist. You don't need a chart to get
from Jamaica to Aruba.
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 16:13:58 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 13:00:23 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jul 2025 13:47:09 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no
markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I
would have seen them.....
Such "markers" are not floating on the surface of the water. They're
part of the topography of the ocean bottom. The "markers" that are
just below the water surface are called "navigation hazards" and
appear on most nautical maps.
Incidentally, these are underwater "markers":
<https://www.google.com/search?q=underwater%20markers&udm=2>
Some examples of nautical maps of the ocean bottoms.
Gulf of Mexico topographic map:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=gulf%20of%20mexico%20topographic%20map&num=10&udm=2>
Topo map of Gulf of Mexico showing pipelines:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=gulf%20of%20mexico%20topographic%20map%20showing%20pipelines&num=10&udm=2>
Fiber Optic Submarine Cable Maps.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=fiber%20optic%20submarine%20cable%20map&num=10&udm=2>
European Natural Gas Network (some of which is under water):
<https://www.entsog.eu/maps>
<https://www.gie.eu/publications/maps/>
This one is nice. Notice all the underwater pipelines on the map:
<https://www.entsog.eu/sites/default/files/2025-01/ENTSOG_GIE_SYSCAP_2025_1600x1200_FULL_114_FLAT.pdf>
There are charts in around land forms where you can have markers. You
could have coordinates out on the ocean and sail towards them, but
maps out on the ocean would be usless.
Useless? To a vessel floating on the surface that has only minimum
navigation tools (compass, sextant, binoculars, gas station road maps,
etc), nautical topographic maps would certainly be useless. However,
a vessel with the appropriate instruments (GPS and depth sounder), a
topographic map of the ocean bottom is useful for determining where to
safely drop anchor, where to avoid so as not to drag anchor, how to
locate marine protected areas:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_protected_area>
etc).
Jeff, dropping the anchor out on the open ocean would be ridiculous.
As John B said, useful nautical charts exist around bodies of land and
where the depth and underwater obstacles can be a problem. Out on the
open ocean none of those issues exist. You don't need a chart to get
from Jamaica to Aruba.
You seem to have the bad habit of looking at things solely from your perspective and without much consideration for other possible
perspectives. Not everyone makes crossing an ocean their sole
interest. There are those who are more interested in ocean bottom
features. Prospecting for mineral nodules. Searching for wrecks
filled with treasure. Touring shipwrecks. Finding a broken submarine
cable. Submersible navigation. Documenting effects of ocean
acidification. Underwater tourism. Someone more experienced can
surely offer a much larger list of things one can do underwater where
a map of the area would be useful.
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 16:13:58 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 13:00:23 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <[email protected]> >>wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jul 2025 13:47:09 -0400, Catrike Ryder >>><[email protected]> wrote:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>>>markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I >>>>would have seen them.....
Such "markers" are not floating on the surface of the water. They're >>>part of the topography of the ocean bottom. The "markers" that are
just below the water surface are called "navigation hazards" and
appear on most nautical maps.
Incidentally, these are underwater "markers": >>><https://www.google.com/search?q=underwater%20markers&udm=2>
Some examples of nautical maps of the ocean bottoms.
Gulf of Mexico topographic map: >>><https://www.google.com/search?q=gulf%20of%20mexico%20topographic%20map&num=10&udm=2>
Topo map of Gulf of Mexico showing pipelines: >>><https://www.google.com/search?q=gulf%20of%20mexico%20topographic%20map%20showing%20pipelines&num=10&udm=2>
Fiber Optic Submarine Cable Maps. >>><https://www.google.com/search?q=fiber%20optic%20submarine%20cable%20map&num=10&udm=2>
European Natural Gas Network (some of which is under water): >>><https://www.entsog.eu/maps>
<https://www.gie.eu/publications/maps/>
This one is nice. Notice all the underwater pipelines on the map: >>><https://www.entsog.eu/sites/default/files/2025-01/ENTSOG_GIE_SYSCAP_2025_1600x1200_FULL_114_FLAT.pdf>
There are charts in around land forms where you can have markers. You >>>>could have coordinates out on the ocean and sail towards them, but
maps out on the ocean would be usless.
Useless? To a vessel floating on the surface that has only minimum >>>navigation tools (compass, sextant, binoculars, gas station road maps, >>>etc), nautical topographic maps would certainly be useless. However,
a vessel with the appropriate instruments (GPS and depth sounder), a >>>topographic map of the ocean bottom is useful for determining where to >>>safely drop anchor, where to avoid so as not to drag anchor, how to >>>locate marine protected areas: >>><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_protected_area>
etc).
Jeff, dropping the anchor out on the open ocean would be ridiculous.
As John B said, useful nautical charts exist around bodies of land and >>where the depth and underwater obstacles can be a problem. Out on the
open ocean none of those issues exist. You don't need a chart to get
from Jamaica to Aruba.
You seem to have the bad habit of looking at things solely from your >perspective and without much consideration for other possible
perspectives. Not everyone makes crossing an ocean their sole
interest. There are those who are more interested in ocean bottom
features. Prospecting for mineral nodules. Searching for wrecks
filled with treasure. Touring shipwrecks. Finding a broken submarine
cable. Submersible navigation. Documenting effects of ocean
acidification. Underwater tourism. Someone more experienced can
surely offer a much larger list of things one can do underwater where
a map of the area would be useful.
Jeff Liebermann <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 16:13:58 -0400, Catrike RyderIndeed there is enough of need and market for organisations to keep
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 13:00:23 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jul 2025 13:47:09 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>>>> markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I >>>>> would have seen them.....
Such "markers" are not floating on the surface of the water. They're
part of the topography of the ocean bottom. The "markers" that are
just below the water surface are called "navigation hazards" and
appear on most nautical maps.
Incidentally, these are underwater "markers":
<https://www.google.com/search?q=underwater%20markers&udm=2>
Some examples of nautical maps of the ocean bottoms.
Gulf of Mexico topographic map:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=gulf%20of%20mexico%20topographic%20map&num=10&udm=2>
Topo map of Gulf of Mexico showing pipelines:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=gulf%20of%20mexico%20topographic%20map%20showing%20pipelines&num=10&udm=2>
Fiber Optic Submarine Cable Maps.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=fiber%20optic%20submarine%20cable%20map&num=10&udm=2>
European Natural Gas Network (some of which is under water):
<https://www.entsog.eu/maps>
<https://www.gie.eu/publications/maps/>
This one is nice. Notice all the underwater pipelines on the map:
<https://www.entsog.eu/sites/default/files/2025-01/ENTSOG_GIE_SYSCAP_2025_1600x1200_FULL_114_FLAT.pdf>
There are charts in around land forms where you can have markers. You >>>>> could have coordinates out on the ocean and sail towards them, but
maps out on the ocean would be usless.
Useless? To a vessel floating on the surface that has only minimum
navigation tools (compass, sextant, binoculars, gas station road maps, >>>> etc), nautical topographic maps would certainly be useless. However,
a vessel with the appropriate instruments (GPS and depth sounder), a
topographic map of the ocean bottom is useful for determining where to >>>> safely drop anchor, where to avoid so as not to drag anchor, how to
locate marine protected areas:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_protected_area>
etc).
Jeff, dropping the anchor out on the open ocean would be ridiculous.
As John B said, useful nautical charts exist around bodies of land and
where the depth and underwater obstacles can be a problem. Out on the
open ocean none of those issues exist. You don't need a chart to get
from Jamaica to Aruba.
You seem to have the bad habit of looking at things solely from your
perspective and without much consideration for other possible
perspectives. Not everyone makes crossing an ocean their sole
interest. There are those who are more interested in ocean bottom
features. Prospecting for mineral nodules. Searching for wrecks
filled with treasure. Touring shipwrecks. Finding a broken submarine
cable. Submersible navigation. Documenting effects of ocean
acidification. Underwater tourism. Someone more experienced can
surely offer a much larger list of things one can do underwater where
a map of the area would be useful.
updating such charts, I�m sure the coastal ones are much more popular as it >would be used by more people, but there is also charts of the oceans as
folks do cross and doesn�t take much imagination to understand that some >people will absolutely find them useful.
After all such charts do require a cost in terms of surveying.
Roger Merriman
Well, yes, Jeff. Other people do have other interests, so their needs
are different than mine. I'm not responsible for getting other people
to where they want to go, so why should have any interest in
considering other people's navigation needs?
I was addressing this issue as a sailor going from port to port.
Indeed there is enough of need and market for organisations to keep
updating such charts, I�m sure the coastal ones are much more popular as it >would be used by more people, but there is also charts of the oceans as
folks do cross and doesn�t take much imagination to understand that some >people will absolutely find them useful.
After all such charts do require a cost in terms of surveying.
On 3 Jul 2025 21:52:21 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
Indeed there is enough of need and market for organisations to keep
updating such charts, I’m sure the coastal ones are much more popular as it
would be used by more people, but there is also charts of the oceans as
folks do cross and doesn’t take much imagination to understand that some >> people will absolutely find them useful.
Apparently, it requires more imagination than is available in the
newsgroup. I guess I also qualify. When I was trying to list the applications that might benefit from under water topography and
monument maps, I couldn't recall very many mostly because I'm still
tired from the last 3 days of firewood stacking.
Also, a major reason for updating published maps is that error are
deemed sufficient justification for yet another lawsuit. Examples: <https://www.google.com/search?q=lawsuit%20inaccurate%20maps>
Even Google, which spends considerable time and effort keeping their
maps up to date was sued for what appears to be someone complaining
that Google does too good a job. Some people believe that being
successful considered monopoly building.
Do something badly and I get sues. Do the same thing better than
anyone else, and I still get sued.
"Google Wins Dismissal of Class Action Suit Over Mapping Products in California Federal Court" <https://www.pymnts.com/cpi-posts/google-wins-dismissal-of-class-action-suit-over-mapping-products-in-california-federal-court/>
"...dismissing a proposed class action lawsuit that alleged
restrictive practices in its digital-mapping products".
After all such charts do require a cost in terms of surveying.
Most maps use government funded data. In the UK, government mapping
is a business. <https://businessleader.co.uk/content/article/602/Ordnance-Survey-CEO:-Ask-three-questions-before-proposing-a-new-business-idea>
"Ordnance Survey was founded in 1791 and specializes in making
detailed maps of Great Britain. It is owned by the government but
operates like a business. It recently reported annual revenues of more
than £180m."
On Mon Jun 30 10:03:22 2025 Zen Cycle wrote:
On 6/27/2025 3:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2025 8:44 AM, AMuzi wrote:
For Wisconsin, the Milwaukee Maps Service quadrant maps show every
county road with road names clearly, which is difficult for online maps. >> >>
https://shop.milwaukeemap.com/regional-3
DeLorme is a publisher that prints large scale "Atlas and Gazetter" maps >> > for most or all U.S. states: https://randpublishing.com/delorme/
The Ohio version is at 1:150,000 scale (about 2.4 miles per inch) and
detailed enough to show every country road and even many street names in >> > tiny villages. I've used it extensively planning several bike tours.
Most notable was a tour we did from the Ohio River to Lake Erie,
following the roads as close as possible to the route of Ohio's first
canal, the Ohio & Erie. In the southern half of the state the canal is
given very little recognition, so it was hard to find the proper roads.
I used DeLorme to find things like "Canal Street" or "Lock Road" in
small towns to get clues.
That was a historically interesting tour. It was fun riding along some
quiet country road, then saying "Look! There's an old canal lock over
there in the woods!"
Same story in my area. There were canals dug for long distance transport
just before the railroad boom that had roads along side for draft
animals to tow the barges upstream. Many of the roads still exist today
with remnants of the canals still visible (Modern maps don't show these
features), in some cases still with water flowing.
I spent many many hours on my mtn bike in the 1980s exploring the old
Middlesex Canal portion which linked the Concord river in Billerica to
the Merrimac river in Lowell (the whole canal ran 22 milesfrom
Charlestown(boston) to lowell) - most of it overgrown with sections
through abandoned industrial sites. Parts of the tow road became the
Middlesex Turnpike in Billerica and Burlington - a high tech hot-spot to
this day.
The City of Nashua, NH was a significant manufacturing center in the
19th and early 20th century with a prominent canal and lock system to
get goods around a waterfall as well as provide hydro power for the
mills. Today it's a park with walking/biking trails along both sides of
the canal.
https://www.nashuanh.gov/DocumentCenter/View/2328/Mine-Falls-Park-Trail-Map-PDF?bidId=
Quite a bit of engineering went into canals. It had to have just
enough current to fill the locks and not enough to make it difficult
for draft animals to pull the barges upstream.
cyclintom <[email protected]> writes:
On Mon Jun 30 10:03:22 2025 Zen Cycle wrote:
On 6/27/2025 3:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2025 8:44 AM, AMuzi wrote:
For Wisconsin, the Milwaukee Maps Service quadrant maps show every
county road with road names clearly, which is difficult for online maps. >>>>>
https://shop.milwaukeemap.com/regional-3
DeLorme is a publisher that prints large scale "Atlas and Gazetter" maps >>>> for most or all U.S. states: https://randpublishing.com/delorme/
The Ohio version is at 1:150,000 scale (about 2.4 miles per inch) and
detailed enough to show every country road and even many street names in >>>> tiny villages. I've used it extensively planning several bike tours.
Most notable was a tour we did from the Ohio River to Lake Erie,
following the roads as close as possible to the route of Ohio's first
canal, the Ohio & Erie. In the southern half of the state the canal is >>>> given very little recognition, so it was hard to find the proper roads. >>>> I used DeLorme to find things like "Canal Street" or "Lock Road" in
small towns to get clues.
That was a historically interesting tour. It was fun riding along some >>>> quiet country road, then saying "Look! There's an old canal lock over
there in the woods!"
Same story in my area. There were canals dug for long distance transport >>> just before the railroad boom that had roads along side for draft
animals to tow the barges upstream. Many of the roads still exist today
with remnants of the canals still visible (Modern maps don't show these
features), in some cases still with water flowing.
I spent many many hours on my mtn bike in the 1980s exploring the old
Middlesex Canal portion which linked the Concord river in Billerica to
the Merrimac river in Lowell (the whole canal ran 22 milesfrom
Charlestown(boston) to lowell) - most of it overgrown with sections
through abandoned industrial sites. Parts of the tow road became the
Middlesex Turnpike in Billerica and Burlington - a high tech hot-spot to >>> this day.
The City of Nashua, NH was a significant manufacturing center in the
19th and early 20th century with a prominent canal and lock system to
get goods around a waterfall as well as provide hydro power for the
mills. Today it's a park with walking/biking trails along both sides of
the canal.
https://www.nashuanh.gov/DocumentCenter/View/2328/Mine-Falls-Park-Trail-Map-PDF?bidId=
Quite a bit of engineering went into canals. It had to have just
enough current to fill the locks and not enough to make it difficult
for draft animals to pull the barges upstream.
The Middlesex canal actually crossed the Concord river. You can still
find the point where the floating bit of the canal was anchored.
The Erie canal flows over a road (it does drip a bit). That's quite a picturesque sight.
OK, but Ordnance Survey maps are worth whatever they are
currently charging. Excellent resource. None of our USA
agencies or departments bring in that sort of revenue (Fees,
sure. That and more. But not actual non-compulsive revenue.)
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 11:15:50 -0700, John B.
<[email protected]> wrote:
Stop and think for a moment... you depart England bound for the US. By
the first or second day you are out of sight of land with a number of
days sailing before you reach the other side, nothing in sight but >>water.... and you want a chart?
Not exactly a chart but rather a plotting sheet: ><https://www.google.com/search?q=navigation%20plotting%20sheet&udm=2>
I used such plotting sheets, along with parallels, compass, dividers, >protractor, rule, pencil, nautical clock (or WWV receiver), HO-229
book(s), etc for navigation:
<https://www.westmarine.com/plotting-tools/>
Dead reckoning also works under water, but I've never tried it. Also
useful for Loran-C if the plotting sheet includes lane lines. ><https://www.ebay.com/itm/223608066742>
No GPS needed although I typically used a sextant and WWV (time)
receiver.
John B. <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, 3 Jul 2025 08:55:11 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 7/3/2025 5:45 AM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 04:44:21 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jul 2025 17:51:18 -0700, John B.
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>>>>>>>> markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I >>>>>>>>> would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean >>>>>> voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only >>>>>> available where there is some land to use as a reference.
Indeed... ...and what purpose would they have far away from any land >>>>> or shallow water?
https://charts.noaa.gov/InteractiveCatalog/nrnc.shtml
In which the dumbass claims there are no charts of the ocean, then
proceeds to post a link which shows charts of the ocean.
Particularity in a sail boat when the best you can do is point the
boat in about the right direction and hope :-)
Then you must have gone to the same sailing school as tommy as well.
No, I lived on a boat and sailed pretty much in Asia, as I said from
Thailand to Australia, and return.
And there are no charts of solely open ocean as the Florida Guy said
Stop and think for a moment... you depart England bound for the US. By
the first or second day you are out of sight of land with a number of
days sailing before you reach the other side, nothing in sight but
water.... and you want a chart?
And yet they are made and sold, as for some the depth or nature of the sea >bed is important, and so on, will all need that? No but such charts exist
and are sold for folks who do.
--Roger Merriman
cheers,
John B.
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 14:16:07 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 11:15:50 -0700, John B.
<[email protected]> wrote:
Stop and think for a moment... you depart England bound for the US. By >>>the first or second day you are out of sight of land with a number of >>>days sailing before you reach the other side, nothing in sight but >>>water.... and you want a chart?
Not exactly a chart but rather a plotting sheet: >><https://www.google.com/search?q=navigation%20plotting%20sheet&udm=2>
I used such plotting sheets, along with parallels, compass, dividers, >>protractor, rule, pencil, nautical clock (or WWV receiver), HO-229
book(s), etc for navigation:
<https://www.westmarine.com/plotting-tools/>
Dead reckoning also works under water, but I've never tried it. Also >>useful for Loran-C if the plotting sheet includes lane lines. >><https://www.ebay.com/itm/223608066742>
No GPS needed although I typically used a sextant and WWV (time)
receiver.
You are on a voyage out of sight of land (crossing
Atlantic in small sailboat) that will take a number of weeks out of
sight of land and you go through all that?
why not just noon sights and a sextant if you are really fussy.
On Thu, 3 Jul 2025 19:58:45 -0500, AMuzi <[email protected]> wrote:
OK, but Ordnance Survey maps are worth whatever they are
currently charging. Excellent resource. None of our USA
agencies or departments bring in that sort of revenue (Fees,
sure. That and more. But not actual non-compulsive revenue.)
I don't know anything about how UK handles it sale of taxpayer funded
data. Like in the US, there are independent data aggregators that
sell subscriptions. For example:
"OS Maps: Subscription" <https://www.togetherprice.com/uk/os-maps/os-maps-subscription/>
"An Ordnance Survey subscription starts at £4.99 per month. Users can
also choose for an annual subscription which costs £28.99 per year."
In the US, the current fad is to convert from SRTM (satellite radar topography mission) side looking radar topography to LIDAR (Light
Detection and Ranging) based aerial digital photography with greatly
improved resolution and accuracy. Much of the data was collected
using public money, which usually makes the data available for FOIA
(freedom of information act) data, which is either free or at the cost
of handling.
<https://www.usgs.gov/tools/lidarexplorer> <https://apps.nationalmap.gov/lidar-availability-viewer/> <https://coast.noaa.gov/digitalcoast/>
I'm trying to learn how to build and use GNSS (global navigation
satellite system) RTK (real time kinematics) which can produce
repeatability and accuracy down to the mm level. <https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/what-is-gps-rtk/all>
For example, Google (Trusted Partner) Street View 360 degree imaging,
on a bicycle, inside underground tunnels, using RTK. <https://www.ardusimple.com/collecting-imagery-in-pedestrian-tunnels-with-rtkins-simplertk2b-f9r/>
On 3 Jul 2025 20:02:37 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
John B. <[email protected]> wrote:Yes there are surveys made of the bottom of the ocean... often done as
On Thu, 3 Jul 2025 08:55:11 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 7/3/2025 5:45 AM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 04:44:21 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jul 2025 17:51:18 -0700, John B.
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no
markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I
would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean >>>>>>> voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only >>>>>>> available where there is some land to use as a reference.
Indeed... ...and what purpose would they have far away from any land >>>>>> or shallow water?
https://charts.noaa.gov/InteractiveCatalog/nrnc.shtml
In which the dumbass claims there are no charts of the ocean, then
proceeds to post a link which shows charts of the ocean.
Particularity in a sail boat when the best you can do is point the
boat in about the right direction and hope :-)
Then you must have gone to the same sailing school as tommy as well.
No, I lived on a boat and sailed pretty much in Asia, as I said from
Thailand to Australia, and return.
And there are no charts of solely open ocean as the Florida Guy said
Stop and think for a moment... you depart England bound for the US. By
the first or second day you are out of sight of land with a number of
days sailing before you reach the other side, nothing in sight but
water.... and you want a chart?
And yet they are made and sold, as for some the depth or nature of the sea >> bed is important, and so on, will all need that? No but such charts exist
and are sold for folks who do.
--Roger Merriman
cheers,
John B.
part of the planning for an undersea cable or pipeline, in fact my
company made on from Java to Sumatra for a cable, but I doubt that
there are any done over large portions of the ocean.
As an aside... that's why ships and boats are equipped with depth
sounders :-)
--
cheers,
John B.
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 17:56:20 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
Well, yes, Jeff. Other people do have other interests, so their needs
are different than mine. I'm not responsible for getting other people
to where they want to go, so why should have any interest in
considering other people's navigation needs?
However, if other people's needs were the same as yours, does that
mean you're not responsible for getting them where they want to go?
That's about as logical as you suggesting that because you're not
interested in some topic, all the other readers of this newsgroup
should be equally disinterested. Yes, I know you didn't say that, but
that's where you're heading.
Why do you expect anyone to listen to
your opinions when you don't care about their interests or their
associated opinions?
You really don't need to inform your readers
that you don't care about some topic or activity. Simply not
mentioning that you don't care should be sufficient.
I was addressing this issue as a sailor going from port to port.
No, that's not what started this thread. You mentioned in:
<https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=129434&group=rec.bicycles.tech#129434>
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no
markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I
would have seen them.....
There are charts in around land forms where you can have markers. You
could have coordinates out on the ocean and sail towards them, but
maps out on the ocean would be useless.
My main concern is your incorrect claim that "maps out on the ocean
would be useless". They might be useless to you, but as others and I
have demonstrated, there are large numbers of ocean maps which show
features not found on coastline or ocean surface maps. I find these
maps very interesting and sometimes useful. I would be quite happy if
you would simply admit that such maps might be useful to people who do
not limit themselves to using the oceans for highway transportation.
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 14:16:07 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 11:15:50 -0700, John B.
<[email protected]> wrote:
Stop and think for a moment... you depart England bound for the US. By >>>the first or second day you are out of sight of land with a number of >>>days sailing before you reach the other side, nothing in sight but >>>water.... and you want a chart?
Not exactly a chart but rather a plotting sheet: >><https://www.google.com/search?q=navigation%20plotting%20sheet&udm=2>
I used such plotting sheets, along with parallels, compass, dividers, >>protractor, rule, pencil, nautical clock (or WWV receiver), HO-229
book(s), etc for navigation:
<https://www.westmarine.com/plotting-tools/>
Dead reckoning also works under water, but I've never tried it. Also >>useful for Loran-C if the plotting sheet includes lane lines. >><https://www.ebay.com/itm/223608066742>
No GPS needed although I typically used a sextant and WWV (time)
receiver.
You are on a voyage out of sight of land (crossing
Atlantic in small sailboat) that will take a number of weeks out of
sight of land and you go through all that?
why not just noon sights and a sextant if you are really fussy.
On 4 Jul 2025 06:24:09 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
John B. <[email protected]> wrote:
On 3 Jul 2025 20:02:37 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]>
wrote:
John B. <[email protected]> wrote:Yes there are surveys made of the bottom of the ocean... often
On Thu, 3 Jul 2025 08:55:11 -0400, Zen Cycle
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 7/3/2025 5:45 AM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 04:44:21 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jul 2025 17:51:18 -0700, John B.
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the
ocean because there are no markers out in the
ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there
and I would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?
chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as
tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having
made some open ocean voyage - Thailand - Australia -
I can assure you that charts are only available
where there is some land to use as a reference.
Indeed... ...and what purpose would they have far
away from any land or shallow water?
https://charts.noaa.gov/InteractiveCatalog/nrnc.shtml
In which the dumbass claims there are no charts of the
ocean, then proceeds to post a link which shows charts of
the ocean.
Particularity in a sail boat when the best you can do is
point the boat in about the right direction and hope :-)
Then you must have gone to the same sailing school as
tommy as well.
No, I lived on a boat and sailed pretty much in Asia, as I
said from Thailand to Australia, and return. And there are
no charts of solely open ocean as the Florida Guy said
Stop and think for a moment... you depart England bound for
the US. By the first or second day you are out of sight of
land with a number of days sailing before you reach the
other side, nothing in sight but water.... and you want a
chart?
And yet they are made and sold, as for some the depth or
nature of the sea bed is important, and so on, will all need
that? No but such charts exist and are sold for folks who do.
-- cheers,Roger Merriman
John B.
done as part of the planning for an undersea cable or pipeline,
in fact my company made on from Java to Sumatra for a cable, but
I doubt that there are any done over large portions of the
ocean.
Indeed that was my point that there are surveys/Charts for those
who need them, CatTrike for what ever reason felt this was a hill
or ocean that was worth dying for ie to try to narrow the scope ie
move the goalposts so his claims made sense.
As an aside... that's why ships and boats are equipped with
depth sounders :-)
Like I said elsewhere, this discussion began with references to
using GPS for transportation purposes so it was not me who moved the goalposts to mapping the ocean bottom.
John B. <[email protected]> wrote:
On 3 Jul 2025 20:02:37 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
John B. <[email protected]> wrote:Yes there are surveys made of the bottom of the ocean... often done as
On Thu, 3 Jul 2025 08:55:11 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 7/3/2025 5:45 AM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 04:44:21 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jul 2025 17:51:18 -0700, John B.
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no
markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I
would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG >>>>>>>>>
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean >>>>>>>> voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only >>>>>>>> available where there is some land to use as a reference.
Indeed... ...and what purpose would they have far away from any land >>>>>>> or shallow water?
https://charts.noaa.gov/InteractiveCatalog/nrnc.shtml
In which the dumbass claims there are no charts of the ocean, then
proceeds to post a link which shows charts of the ocean.
Particularity in a sail boat when the best you can do is point the >>>>>> boat in about the right direction and hope :-)
Then you must have gone to the same sailing school as tommy as well.
No, I lived on a boat and sailed pretty much in Asia, as I said from
Thailand to Australia, and return.
And there are no charts of solely open ocean as the Florida Guy said
Stop and think for a moment... you depart England bound for the US. By >>>> the first or second day you are out of sight of land with a number of
days sailing before you reach the other side, nothing in sight but
water.... and you want a chart?
And yet they are made and sold, as for some the depth or nature of the sea >>> bed is important, and so on, will all need that? No but such charts exist >>> and are sold for folks who do.
--Roger Merriman
cheers,
John B.
part of the planning for an undersea cable or pipeline, in fact my
company made on from Java to Sumatra for a cable, but I doubt that
there are any done over large portions of the ocean.
Indeed that was my point that there are surveys/Charts for those who need >them, CatTrike for what ever reason felt this was a hill or ocean that was >worth dying for ie to try to narrow the scope ie move the goalposts so his >claims made sense.
As an aside... that's why ships and boats are equipped with depth
sounders :-)
--
cheers,
John B.
Roger Merriman
Am 04.07.2025 um 10:17 schrieb Catrike Ryder:
On 4 Jul 2025 06:24:09 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
John B. <[email protected]> wrote:
On 3 Jul 2025 20:02:37 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]>
wrote:
John B. <[email protected]> wrote:Yes there are surveys made of the bottom of the ocean... often
On Thu, 3 Jul 2025 08:55:11 -0400, Zen Cycle
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 7/3/2025 5:45 AM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 04:44:21 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jul 2025 17:51:18 -0700, John B.
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the
ocean because there are no markers out in the
ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there
and I would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?
chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as
tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having
made some open ocean voyage - Thailand - Australia -
I can assure you that charts are only available
where there is some land to use as a reference.
Indeed... ...and what purpose would they have far
away from any land or shallow water?
https://charts.noaa.gov/InteractiveCatalog/nrnc.shtml
In which the dumbass claims there are no charts of the
ocean, then proceeds to post a link which shows charts of
the ocean.
Particularity in a sail boat when the best you can do is
point the boat in about the right direction and hope :-)
Then you must have gone to the same sailing school as
tommy as well.
No, I lived on a boat and sailed pretty much in Asia, as I
said from Thailand to Australia, and return. And there are
no charts of solely open ocean as the Florida Guy said
Stop and think for a moment... you depart England bound for
the US. By the first or second day you are out of sight of
land with a number of days sailing before you reach the
other side, nothing in sight but water.... and you want a
chart?
And yet they are made and sold, as for some the depth or
nature of the sea bed is important, and so on, will all need
that? No but such charts exist and are sold for folks who do.
-- cheers,Roger Merriman
John B.
done as part of the planning for an undersea cable or pipeline,
in fact my company made on from Java to Sumatra for a cable, but
I doubt that there are any done over large portions of the
ocean.
Indeed that was my point that there are surveys/Charts for those
who need them, CatTrike for what ever reason felt this was a hill
or ocean that was worth dying for ie to try to narrow the scope ie
move the goalposts so his claims made sense.
As an aside... that's why ships and boats are equipped with
depth sounders :-)
Like I said elsewhere, this discussion began with references to
using GPS for transportation purposes so it was not me who moved the
goalposts to mapping the ocean bottom.
You, possiby accidentially, moved the goalposts from "on the high seas, >charts are not useful for nagivation" (which we all would have agreed
with) to "There are no charts covering the high seas" (which we disagree >with).
Everybody sometimes is careless about precision of their statements in >discussions, but in such a situation it would be wiser to amend your
original statement rather than digging yourself into a hole you do no
wish to sit in.
John B. <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 04:44:21 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jul 2025 17:51:18 -0700, John B.
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>>>>>> markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I >>>>>>> would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean >>>> voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only
available where there is some land to use as a reference.
Indeed... ...and what purpose would they have far away from any land
or shallow water?
https://charts.noaa.gov/InteractiveCatalog/nrnc.shtml
Particularity in a sail boat when the best you can do is point the
boat in about the right direction and hope :-)
--
cheers,
John B.
That�s not my experience, but the Severn has large tidal ranges, and areas >you�d not want to get stuck in and so on. Not necessarily that difficult
but you certainly need to be aware of where and when you are and when
you�ll arrive.
Roger Merriman
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 17:56:20 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
Well, yes, Jeff. Other people do have other interests, so their needs
are different than mine. I'm not responsible for getting other people
to where they want to go, so why should have any interest in
considering other people's navigation needs?
However, if other people's needs were the same as yours, does that
mean you're not responsible for getting them where they want to go?
That's about as logical as you suggesting that because you're not
interested in some topic, all the other readers of this newsgroup
should be equally disinterested. Yes, I know you didn't say that, but
that's where you're heading.
Why do you expect anyone to listen to
your opinions when you don't care about their interests or their
associated opinions? You really don't need to inform your readers
that you don't care about some topic or activity. Simply not
mentioning that you don't care should be sufficient.
I was addressing this issue as a sailor going from port to port.
No, that's not what started this thread. You mentioned in:
<https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=129434&group=rec.bicycles.tech#129434>
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no
markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I
would have seen them.....
There are charts in around land forms where you can have markers. You
could have coordinates out on the ocean and sail towards them, but
maps out on the ocean would be useless.
My main concern is your incorrect claim that "maps out on the ocean
would be useless". They might be useless to you, but as others and I
have demonstrated, there are large numbers of ocean maps which show
features not found on coastline or ocean surface maps. I find these
maps very interesting and sometimes useful. I would be quite happy if
you would simply admit that such maps might be useful to people who do
not limit themselves to using the oceans for highway transportation.
On 7/3/2025 8:42 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
cyclintom <[email protected]> writes:
On Mon Jun 30 10:03:22 2025 Zen Cycle wrote:
On 6/27/2025 3:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2025 8:44 AM, AMuzi wrote:
For Wisconsin, the Milwaukee Maps Service quadrant maps show every >>>>>> county road with road names clearly, which is difficult for online >>>>>> maps.
https://shop.milwaukeemap.com/regional-3
DeLorme is a publisher that prints large scale "Atlas and Gazetter"
maps
for most or all U.S. states: https://randpublishing.com/delorme/
The Ohio version is at 1:150,000 scale (about 2.4 miles per inch) and >>>>> detailed enough to show every country road and even many street
names in
tiny villages. I've used it extensively planning several bike tours. >>>>>
Most notable was a tour we did from the Ohio River to Lake Erie,
following the roads as close as possible to the route of Ohio's first >>>>> canal, the Ohio & Erie. In the southern half of the state the canal is >>>>> given very little recognition, so it was hard to find the proper
roads.
I used DeLorme to find things like "Canal Street" or "Lock Road" in
small towns to get clues.
That was a historically interesting tour. It was fun riding along some >>>>> quiet country road, then saying "Look! There's an old canal lock over >>>>> there in the woods!"
Same story in my area. There were canals dug for long distance
transport
just before the railroad boom that had roads along side for draft
animals to tow the barges upstream. Many of the roads still exist today >>>> with remnants of the canals still visible (Modern maps don't show these >>>> features), in some cases still with water flowing.
I spent many many hours on my mtn bike in the 1980s exploring the old
Middlesex Canal portion which linked the Concord river in Billerica to >>>> the Merrimac river in Lowell (the whole canal ran 22 milesfrom
Charlestown(boston) to lowell) - most of it overgrown with sections
through abandoned industrial sites. Parts of the tow road became the
Middlesex Turnpike in Billerica and Burlington - a high tech hot-
spot to
this day.
The City of Nashua, NH was a significant manufacturing center in the
19th and early 20th century with a prominent canal and lock system to
get goods around a waterfall as well as provide hydro power for the
mills. Today it's a park with walking/biking trails along both sides of >>>> the canal.
https://www.nashuanh.gov/DocumentCenter/View/2328/Mine-Falls-Park-
Trail-Map-PDF?bidId=
Quite a bit of engineering went into canals. It had to have just
enough current to fill the locks and not enough to make it difficult
for draft animals to pull the barges upstream.
The Middlesex canal actually crossed the Concord river. You can still
find the point where the floating bit of the canal was anchored.
The Erie canal flows over a road (it does drip a bit). That's quite a
picturesque sight.
Can't beat the Scots for innovation:
https://lostinlandmarks.com/the-unexpected-story-behind-scotlands-giant- staircase-of-water/
On 7/3/2025 3:07 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Sun Jun 29 16:29:48 2025 AMuzi wrote:
On 6/29/2025 4:13 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Sun Jun 29 21:04:33 2025 cyclintom wrote:
On Sun Jun 29 09:13:01 2025 AMuzi wrote:
On 6/28/2025 7:30 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Sat Jun 28 07:47:07 2025 Roger Merriman wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 21:40:54 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/27/2025 8:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/27/2025 4:37 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:Heartily agreed! I love USGS maps, and I once had an article >>>>>>>>>>> published
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27 Jun 2025 00:11:21 GMT, Roger MerrimanNote the maps Im talking about are UK Ordance Survey so >>>>>>>>>>>>> their focus
<[email protected]> wrote:
Zen Cycle <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/25/2025 6:39 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:To be fair that?s one feature Strava has which is one can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see if
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/25/2025 4:00 PM, cyclintom wrote:
Indeed does seem to believe all sorts of things about >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Garmin?sOn Mon Jun 23 13:32:57 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/23/2025 11:19 AM, Zen Cycle wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
it's possible he's having trouble getting the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> moving average
to display.
he might need some guidance getting the datafield >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> menu, but
I'm done
helping him.
I was suffering some irritation with my new cell >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> phone. A 13-
year-old
fixed it for me within minutes.
Tom should hire a 13-year-old.
Frank, are you saying that you don't know anything >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about a
Garmin but
someone else should?
I have no interest in Garmins. But I'm saying _you_ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't know
enough
about your Garmin, and that today's teenagers are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> often adept at
electronic devices and their menu systems. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
But forget it. Figure it out yourself, while bitching >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that you
are right
and the rest of the universe is wrong, as you usually do. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
that a
clearly not correct!
Personally they are handy for navigation, while I use >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maps (yes
I agree with Jay Beattie that I don't need electronics >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to tell me
how
much slower I'm getting. I wonder what you're hoping >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to achieve with
your Garmin. Training for your next race?
paper) to
plot a route a device that can keep one on that route, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this sort
of thing
is much less with roads, which are by some degree >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> easier to navigate.
There was a movie called Hard Miles that came out a few >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years ago
starring Mattew Modine. The IMDB synopsis reads: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"A prison social worker assembles a cycling team of teenage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convicts and
takes them on a transformative 1,000-mile ride. Inspired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by the
life of
Greg Townsend and the Ridgeview Academy cycling team." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I saw it in the theater when it came out. I gave it a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solid B/B+,
partially since it did a reasonable job in the technical >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aspects,
but it
was a good movie overall with a very positive message. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The relevant point to my response, was when Modine's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> character was
teaching the kids how to read a map - which they would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need since they
weren't' going to be allowed to bring cellphones on the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trip.
One of the teenagers suggested they avoid a city center >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> since the map
had the roads shown in red, meaning they had a lot of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> traffic. The
interaction between the two about how a paper map could >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly be
updated in real time was hilarious.
anyone has
used a segment and this year/month/week to gauge does >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this exist on the
ground and is it rideable? Names occasionally give the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> name away,
segments
named Bramble tunnel for example I might avoid!
Ie that there is a right of way is one thing but is it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible to
ride it?
The paper maps can?t tell me, sometimes I can be fairly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure for
example
some of the rarely used stuff on the Ridgeway is open >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> land so be
passable.
Roger Merriman
I do use Strava etc for the social and so on aspect. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And I do prefer Strava route builder over others >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> particularly as I
do ride
routes less traveled so that?s always useful. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Roger Merriman
I haven't looked at a paper map for decades. I'm surprised >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that they
still make them.
is for
land and rights of way, way beyond tarmac roads, they do >>>>>>>>>>>>> have digital
download which is handy, as a mobile is generally more >>>>>>>>>>>>> waterproof and
easier to carry.
Google maps and similar will do little in such areas. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
C'est bonRoger Merriman
Soloman
My experience as well. Good mapmakers are a wonderful resource. >>>>>>>>>>>
in _Bicycling_ explaining and praising them for bicycling, >>>>>>>>>>> especially
for the contour data.
When a good friend or family member moves to a new location, >>>>>>>>>>> I mount and
frame a 1:24000 series map of their location as a gift. If >>>>>>>>>>> their place
is near an edge or corner, I include the adjacent maps,
carefully fitted
together. I think the resulting wall hanging is quite beautiful. >>>>>>>>>>>
Uk Ordnance Survey you can buy them centred on your house etc, >>>>>>>>>> no digital
down load and so on but nevertheless fun.
I do also use the old online versions to find stuff that has >>>>>>>>>> disappeared,
and go for an explore.
Roger Merriman
Being a it of a history nut, I like to do that, but I think old >>>>>>>>> antique maps are best for that. I have copies of old maps that >>>>>>>>> show
the old stagecoach road that ran through two of my ancestors >>>>>>>>> farms.
I tend to find the very old ones aren?t particularly detailed
and large
scale which is why Ordance Survey was set up, and there are
fairly detailed
ones 18xx (late)
Which to be fair is often more curiosity why is that track
there? Roman and
so on roads are normally fairly clear.
When I said I haven't looked at a paper map for decades, I was >>>>>>>>> referring to using them for navigation, but I enthralled with old >>>>>>>>> antique maps and using them to find places with history. I used >>>>>>>>> an old
map and old books to find and hike to the place where I believe my >>>>>>>>> great grandfather and his cavalry mates crossed the
Rappahannock River
to attack Jeb Stuart. I sat on the stone fence where his
brother, my
great uncle died.
That for me at least in the close term would probably be the
world wars,
going further back it?s much more diluted, and sometimes on both >>>>>>>> sides such
as Battle of Hastings and so on.
Romkan Roads were a marvel of engineering for their time. They
were dug deep and then followed with gravel and then stone. They >>>>>>> had better be plain because they were built to carry 4 columns
next to each other. Hadrians Wall is still there after over 2,000 >>>>>>> years. Virtually ALL of the roads in northern Italy are paved
over Roman roads.
WTF?
"Virtually ALL of the roads in northern Italy are paved over
Roman roads." is not even remotely believable. It's just
not true.
https://duckduckgo.com/?
q=Why+are+Belgian+cobblestone+roads+built+like+that&atb=v366-1&t=chromentp&ia=videos&iax=videos&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DkUIsFv_JNYs
Oops, https://youtu.be/kUIsFv_JNYs
Flagstone and pavers are not cobbles.
I'm afraid I don't understand what you're getting on about. Most of
that reference was about Roman cobblestone roads. Notice that they
said thatg cities were built at main intersections of Roman roads.
Paris in fact, has all of its northern road fujjnnel through Paris and
then split south of Parris into many smaller roads. But like I said,
France merely used the Roman cobblestone roads as a base for today's
roads. Driving down these roads and coming to Roman road houses pretty
much shows this practice pretty clearly.
France was left pretty much untouched by the war (bombs and very heavy
fighting)
so those roads were stgill usable.
Belgium was certainly
another story.
You called Roman paventum 'cobbles'. They are not:
https://hghgranite.com/differences-between-cobbles-pavers-and-setts/
https://traveltoitalyguide.com/what-are-the-stones-of-roman-roads-called/
Some people were good enough at engineering to make it their career profession.
On 6/30/2025 11:21 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Now GPS takes you to the right address andI'd insert "usually" takes you to the right address. I've had GPS and
you're not even aware of the madness.
Google Maps get very confused on occasion, telling me I'd arrived when I absolutely had not.
Tonight I drove home from a city about an hour away. My car's navigation system was very upset that I was proceeding on a closed road. But the
road was perfectly fine.
On 7/4/2025 6:42 AM, zen cycle wrote:
On 7/3/2025 8:52 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 17:56:20 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
Well, yes, Jeff. Other people do have other interests, so their needs
are different than mine. I'm not responsible for getting other people
to where they want to go, so why should have any interest in
considering other people's navigation needs?
However, if other people's needs were the same as yours, does that
mean you're not responsible for getting them where they want to go?
That's about as logical as you suggesting that because you're not
interested in some topic, all the other readers of this newsgroup
should be equally disinterested.� Yes, I know you didn't say that, but
that's where you're heading.
He's pretty much overtly stated that he doesn't understand why people
engage in discussions on subjects he's not interested in (hence the many
comments to him regarding the purpose of a discussion group).
Why do you expect anyone to listen to
your opinions when you don't care about their interests or their
associated opinions?� You really don't need to inform your readers
that you don't care about some topic or activity.� Simply not
mentioning that you don't care should be sufficient.
Another point which has been repeatedly made to him, which he doesn't
quite seem to understand.
ISTM that nearly all of Mr. Tricycle's comments fit into just a few >categories:
1) "I dislike [whatever someone has mentioned]" That could be riding
with friends, or talking to acquaintances, or riding on normal streets,
or a dozen other things.
2) "I'm not interested in [whatever the topic happens to be]." As if we
need to keep an inventory of his disinterests.
3) Snarks at whatever I've posted on any topic at all. He imagines my
life must be as limited as his, so he inflates his self image by
pretending all my experiences are imaginary or worthless.
4) MAGA posts replaying whatever his dear leaders said this week.
His few remaining posts are mostly details about his spreadsheet records
of oiling his chain, or shopping for a pickup truck, or other things
that draw zero interest from anyone here with an actual life.
On Tue, 01 Jul 2025 06:06:56 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 1 Jul 2025 09:28:29 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jun 2025 23:16:56 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/30/2025 11:21 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Now GPS takes you to the right address andI'd insert "usually" takes you to the right address. I've had GPS and >>>> Google Maps get very confused on occasion, telling me I'd arrived when I >>>> absolutely had not.
you're not even aware of the madness.
Tonight I drove home from a city about an hour away. My car's navigation >>>> system was very upset that I was proceeding on a closed road. But the >>>> road was perfectly fine.
Nonsense.....
Personal anecdotes don't prove your point, especially when you make
them up.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
No that?s my experience in areas such as Wales/Brecon Beacons where such >>devices do get confused, around London/Surrey and areas like Florida I?m >>sure as has the population density.
Hence stuff like Komoot being much less useful in such places as it just >>gives a blank map not showing the paths/roads I know exist, which gives no >>confidence with ones that I don?t!
Roger Merriman
I've been using GPS for decades and I've never had one lead me astray.
Many times it's led me through narrow channels and directly up to a
dock or mooring in total darkness or fog. Any errors you might have >noticed would be due to the quality of the maps, not the GPS.
Back when GPS first was becoming popular on sailing boats a good
friend used to complain that when anchored in a favorite spot in the Philippines his GPS showed him to ashore about 100 yards :-)
Which is what Frank was talking about! Ie the car sat nav saying it?s a closed road, which absolutely happens in less built up areas, I find that modern Satnavs cope well with satellite drop outs, and keep with prompts, back to maps really in urban/suburban areas absolutely maps even free stuff like google maps works fine, but not so much once it?s more rural or into
the hills where it doesn?t.
Zen Cycle <[email protected]> wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:16 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 10:30 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
his response was "yeah....gps doesn't really work out here...."
We got exactly the same remark during a trip to Cape Breton a few years
ago. We were following a coastal road when the GPS instructed us to turn >> left and head uphill. I stopped and checked a paper map. The road to the >> left was gravel, and would have taken us on an empty loop that returned
to the paved coastal road a few miles up ahead.
To be clear it isn't really the fault of the GPS, it's the mapping data
in the app. GPS is GPS, it will always tell you with an amazing amount
of certainty where you are (given reasonable satellite visibility*).
What it can't do is get you to a certain location based on an address or road name if that data has not been loaded into the app properly. GIGO.
I suppose if a person uses his GPS mostly to go out and back on a flat
bike path, he'd find it to be perfectly reliable.
* but then, there's this:
https://www.popsci.com/technology/google-gps-map/
In my experience it?s that the mapping and then routing can?t cope with either roads it doesn?t know exist or that properties are some distance
from a road and just will not route to it.
In a similar fashion I never allow the Garmin to re calculate a route I?m following as it may well not have the trail on the map and it will not know what the trail is like, ie taking a gravel bike down a black run is going
to be hike a bike!
And I?ll have chosen the route fairly carefully so will want to follow it.
Another undocumented anecdote?
Here's some facts.... A paper map can't tell you where you are and
how far from where you want to be.
I suppose if a person uses his GPS mostly to go out and back on a flat
bike path, he'd find it to be perfectly reliable.
My GPS worked fine in Mexico, Honduras, and all over the Caribbean.
There aren't any maps out on the ocean.
On Tue Jul 1 12:09:03 2025 Roger Merriman wrote:
Which is what Frank was talking about! Ie the car sat nav saying it?s a
closed road, which absolutely happens in less built up areas, I find that
modern Satnavs cope well with satellite drop outs, and keep with prompts,
back to maps really in urban/suburban areas absolutely maps even free stuff >> like google maps works fine, but not so much once it?s more rural or into
the hills where it doesn?t.
That's interesting. How do you tell a Satellite drop out if you have compensating softwae? My 1030 has a built in compass and with wheel sensors I would think that you would never know that a Satellite dropped below the horizon.
Nonsense.....
Personal anecdotes don't prove your point, especially when you make
them up.
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I:-) Wait! Wait! Our timid tricyclist just tossed out an UNDOCUMENTED anecdote! There's no proof he's been "out there" in the ocean.
would have seen them.....
Logical consistency? Nope, he's lacking that too.
(This post will probably juice up his obsession with me even further!)
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On Tue, 1 Jul 2025 11:16:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 7/1/2025 10:30 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
his response was "yeah....gps doesn't really work out
here...."
We got exactly the same remark during a trip to Cape Breton a few years
ago. We were following a coastal road when the GPS instructed us to turn >> left and head uphill. I stopped and checked a paper map. The road to the >> left was gravel, and would have taken us on an empty loop that returned
to the paved coastal road a few miles up ahead.
Another undocumented anecdote?
Here's some facts.... A paper map can't tell you where you are and
how far from where you want to be.
I suppose if a person uses his GPS mostly to go out and back on a flat
bike path, he'd find it to be perfectly reliable.
My GPS worked fine in Mexico, Honduras, and all over the Caribbean.
There aren't any maps out on the ocean.
Charts? There absolutely are areas that are unwise to sail into, for what ever reasons, but absolutely are maps of the sea.
On Mon Jun 30 23:16:56 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/30/2025 11:21 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Now GPS takes you to the right address andI'd insert "usually" takes you to the right address. I've had GPS and
you're not even aware of the madness.
Google Maps get very confused on occasion, telling me I'd arrived when I
absolutely had not.
Tonight I drove home from a city about an hour away. My car's navigation
system was very upset that I was proceeding on a closed road. But the
road was perfectly fine.
Do you even know how to use Google Maps? Driving from San Leandro to Phoenix, Arizona, not only did it give me explcit directions but I could ask it where the nearest gas station was.
It also has bike routes that can navigate you over bike paths.
And you're saying that it gets confused? I think we all know where the confussion lies.
On Tue, 01 Jul 2025 06:06:56 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
I've been using GPS for decades and I've never had one lead me astray.
Many times it's led me through narrow channels and directly up to a
dock or mooring in total darkness or fog. Any errors you might have >>noticed would be due to the quality of the maps, not the GPS.
Back when GPS first was becoming popular on sailing boats a good
friend used to complain that when anchored in a favorite spot in the >Philippines his GPS showed him to ashore about 100 yards :-)
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no
markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I
would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no
markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I
would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean
voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only available where there is some land to use as a reference.
On 7/2/2025 8:51 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]> wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>>> markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I >>>> would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only available where there is some land to use as a reference.
I can assure you charts are available for every last square foot of the earth, and that includes oceans.
Someone standing on a sail boat might be able to see something on the
horizon 5-6 miles away.
Here's a chart of the Gulf of Mexico:
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11006OG
If you're at 25N, 87W, you're about 200 miles from the nearest land
mass. You aren't going to see anything but water, yet here is a map of
the ocean at that location.
Yes, there's a land reference on the chart, but it doesn't do you much
good if you can't see it. The dumbasses claim "there aren't any maps out
on the ocean because there are no markers out in the ocean" is stupid
and wrong.
You are getting all carried away.
In more detail there are no charts (navel term for map) covering
solely open ocean, which the original poster was trying to get across.
your reference above was to land reference to water.
Your reference to seeing or not seeing simply shows why one uses a
chart. If you can see then why would you need a chart?
John B. <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 04:44:21 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jul 2025 17:51:18 -0700, John B.
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>>>>> markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I >>>>>> would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean >>> voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only
available where there is some land to use as a reference.
Indeed... ...and what purpose would they have far away from any land
or shallow water?
https://charts.noaa.gov/InteractiveCatalog/nrnc.shtml
Particularity in a sail boat when the best you can do is point the
boat in about the right direction and hope :-)
--
cheers,
John B.
That?s not my experience, but the Severn has large tidal ranges, and areas you?d not want to get stuck in and so on. Not necessarily that difficult
but you certainly need to be aware of where and when you are and when
you?ll arrive.
On Thu, 3 Jul 2025 08:52:17 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 7/2/2025 8:51 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>>>> markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I >>>>> would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean
voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only
available where there is some land to use as a reference.
I can assure you charts are available for every last square foot of the >earth, and that includes oceans.
Someone standing on a sail boat might be able to see something on the >horizon 5-6 miles away.
Here's a chart of the Gulf of Mexico:
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11006OG
If you're at 25N, 87W, you're about 200 miles from the nearest land
mass. You aren't going to see anything but water, yet here is a map of
the ocean at that location.
Yes, there's a land reference on the chart, but it doesn't do you much
good if you can't see it. The dumbasses claim "there aren't any maps out
on the ocean because there are no markers out in the ocean" is stupid
and wrong.
.
I wonder which ocean Junior thinks the Gulf of America is.
https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/howmanyoceans.html
Catrike Ryder <[email protected]> wrote:
On 3 Jul 2025 17:33:22 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
John B. <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 04:44:21 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jul 2025 17:51:18 -0700, John B.
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no
markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I
would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean >>>>> voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only >>>>> available where there is some land to use as a reference.
Indeed... ...and what purpose would they have far away from any land >>>> or shallow water?
https://charts.noaa.gov/InteractiveCatalog/nrnc.shtml
Particularity in a sail boat when the best you can do is point the
boat in about the right direction and hope :-)
--
cheers,
John B.
That s not my experience, but the Severn has large tidal ranges, and areas
you d not want to get stuck in and so on. Not necessarily that difficult >> but you certainly need to be aware of where and when you are and when
you ll arrive.
Roger Merriman
I think John B was referring to sailing on open water far away from
any land mass, and thus far away from where navigation charts would
have any value.
And yet for example if I wanted to sail to Florida the Admiralty (and
others) would sell me not only charts of the coast and larger areas around, but also the North Atlantic passage, as they seem to for all number of oceans.
No, I lived on a boat and sailed pretty much in Asia, as I said from Thailand to Australia, and return.
And there are no charts of solely open ocean as the Florida Guy said
Stop and think for a moment... you depart England bound for the US. By
the first or second day you are out of sight of land with a number of
days sailing before you reach the other side, nothing in sight but water.... and you want a chart?
And yet they are made and sold, as for some the depth or nature of the sea bed is important, and so on, will all need that? No but such charts exist
and are sold for folks who do.
On 3 Jul 2025 20:02:37 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
John B. <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, 3 Jul 2025 08:55:11 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 7/3/2025 5:45 AM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 04:44:21 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jul 2025 17:51:18 -0700, John B.
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no
markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I
would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Perhaps it is a matter of nomenclature but having made some open ocean >>>>>> voyage - Thailand - Australia - I can assure you that charts are only >>>>>> available where there is some land to use as a reference.
Indeed... ...and what purpose would they have far away from any land >>>>> or shallow water?
https://charts.noaa.gov/InteractiveCatalog/nrnc.shtml
In which the dumbass claims there are no charts of the ocean, then
proceeds to post a link which shows charts of the ocean.
Particularity in a sail boat when the best you can do is point the
boat in about the right direction and hope :-)
Then you must have gone to the same sailing school as tommy as well.
No, I lived on a boat and sailed pretty much in Asia, as I said from
Thailand to Australia, and return.
And there are no charts of solely open ocean as the Florida Guy said
Stop and think for a moment... you depart England bound for the US. By
the first or second day you are out of sight of land with a number of
days sailing before you reach the other side, nothing in sight but
water.... and you want a chart?
And yet they are made and sold, as for some the depth or nature of the sea >bed is important, and so on, will all need that? No but such charts exist >and are sold for folks who do.
--Roger Merriman
cheers,
John B.
Who needs to see the sea floor when traveling from GB to New York
City?
On 7/3/2025 5:45 AM, John B. wrote:
https://charts.noaa.gov/InteractiveCatalog/nrnc.shtml
In which the dumbass claims there are no charts of the ocean, then
proceeds to post a link which shows charts of the ocean.
Particularity in a sail boat when the best you can do is point the
boat in about the right direction and hope :-)
Then you must have gone to the same sailing school as tommy as well.
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 11:15:50 -0700, John B.
<[email protected]> wrote:
Stop and think for a moment... you depart England bound for the US. By
the first or second day you are out of sight of land with a number of
days sailing before you reach the other side, nothing in sight but >water.... and you want a chart?
Not exactly a chart but rather a plotting sheet: <https://www.google.com/search?q=navigation%20plotting%20sheet&udm=2>
I used such plotting sheets, along with parallels, compass, dividers, protractor, rule, pencil, nautical clock (or WWV receiver), HO-229
book(s), etc for navigation:
<https://www.westmarine.com/plotting-tools/>
Dead reckoning also works under water, but I've never tried it. Also
useful for Loran-C if the plotting sheet includes lane lines. <https://www.ebay.com/itm/223608066742>
No GPS needed although I typically used a sextant and WWV (time)
receiver.
You are on a voyage out of sight of land (crossing
Atlantic in small sailboat) that will take a number of weeks out of
sight of land and you go through all that?
why not just noon sights and a sextant if you are really fussy.
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:18:44 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 7/1/2025 11:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:right...maps like this don't exist:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no
markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I
would have seen them.....
https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=11359OG
You must have taken the same sailing classes as tommy.
Gawd yer a fucking moron.
Depth chart of the Louisiana offshore oil port? Really? No, that's not
"out in the ocean."
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 16:13:58 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 13:00:23 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <[email protected]> >wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jul 2025 13:47:09 -0400, Catrike Ryder >><[email protected]> wrote:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>>markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I >>>would have seen them.....
Such "markers" are not floating on the surface of the water. They're >>part of the topography of the ocean bottom. The "markers" that are
just below the water surface are called "navigation hazards" and
appear on most nautical maps.
Incidentally, these are underwater "markers": >><https://www.google.com/search?q=underwater%20markers&udm=2>
Some examples of nautical maps of the ocean bottoms.
Gulf of Mexico topographic map: >><https://www.google.com/search?q=gulf%20of%20mexico%20topographic%20map&num=10&udm=2>
Topo map of Gulf of Mexico showing pipelines: >><https://www.google.com/search?q=gulf%20of%20mexico%20topographic%20map%20showing%20pipelines&num=10&udm=2>
Fiber Optic Submarine Cable Maps. >><https://www.google.com/search?q=fiber%20optic%20submarine%20cable%20map&num=10&udm=2>
European Natural Gas Network (some of which is under water): >><https://www.entsog.eu/maps>
<https://www.gie.eu/publications/maps/>
This one is nice. Notice all the underwater pipelines on the map: >><https://www.entsog.eu/sites/default/files/2025-01/ENTSOG_GIE_SYSCAP_2025_1600x1200_FULL_114_FLAT.pdf>
There are charts in around land forms where you can have markers. You >>>could have coordinates out on the ocean and sail towards them, but
maps out on the ocean would be usless.
Useless? To a vessel floating on the surface that has only minimum >>navigation tools (compass, sextant, binoculars, gas station road maps, >>etc), nautical topographic maps would certainly be useless. However,
a vessel with the appropriate instruments (GPS and depth sounder), a >>topographic map of the ocean bottom is useful for determining where to >>safely drop anchor, where to avoid so as not to drag anchor, how to >>locate marine protected areas: >><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_protected_area>
etc).
Jeff, dropping the anchor out on the open ocean would be ridiculous.
As John B said, useful nautical charts exist around bodies of land and >where the depth and underwater obstacles can be a problem. Out on the
open ocean none of those issues exist. You don't need a chart to get
from Jamaica to Aruba.
You seem to have the bad habit of looking at things solely from your perspective and without much consideration for other possible
perspectives. Not everyone makes crossing an ocean their sole
interest. There are those who are more interested in ocean bottom
features. Prospecting for mineral nodules. Searching for wrecks
filled with treasure. Touring shipwrecks. Finding a broken submarine
cable. Submersible navigation. Documenting effects of ocean
acidification. Underwater tourism. Someone more experienced can
surely offer a much larger list of things one can do underwater where
a map of the area would be useful.
Jeff, dropping the anchor out on the open ocean would be ridiculous.
As John B said, useful nautical charts exist around bodies of land and >where the depth and underwater obstacles can be a problem. Out on the
open ocean none of those issues exist. You don't need a chart to get
from Jamaica to Aruba.
You seem to have the bad habit of looking at things solely from your perspective and without much consideration for other possible
perspectives. Not everyone makes crossing an ocean their sole
interest. There are those who are more interested in ocean bottom
features. Prospecting for mineral nodules. Searching for wrecks
filled with treasure. Touring shipwrecks. Finding a broken submarine
cable. Submersible navigation. Documenting effects of ocean
acidification. Underwater tourism. Someone more experienced can
surely offer a much larger list of things one can do underwater where
a map of the area would be useful.
Jeff Liebermann <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 16:13:58 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 13:00:23 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jul 2025 13:47:09 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no >>>> markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I >>>> would have seen them.....
Such "markers" are not floating on the surface of the water. They're
part of the topography of the ocean bottom. The "markers" that are
just below the water surface are called "navigation hazards" and
appear on most nautical maps.
Incidentally, these are underwater "markers":
<https://www.google.com/search?q=underwater%20markers&udm=2>
Some examples of nautical maps of the ocean bottoms.
Gulf of Mexico topographic map:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=gulf%20of%20mexico%20topographic%20map&num=10&udm=2>
Topo map of Gulf of Mexico showing pipelines:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=gulf%20of%20mexico%20topographic%20map%20showing%20pipelines&num=10&udm=2>
Fiber Optic Submarine Cable Maps.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=fiber%20optic%20submarine%20cable%20map&num=10&udm=2>
European Natural Gas Network (some of which is under water):
<https://www.entsog.eu/maps>
<https://www.gie.eu/publications/maps/>
This one is nice. Notice all the underwater pipelines on the map:
<https://www.entsog.eu/sites/default/files/2025-01/ENTSOG_GIE_SYSCAP_2025_1600x1200_FULL_114_FLAT.pdf>
There are charts in around land forms where you can have markers. You >>>> could have coordinates out on the ocean and sail towards them, but
maps out on the ocean would be usless.
Useless? To a vessel floating on the surface that has only minimum
navigation tools (compass, sextant, binoculars, gas station road maps, >>> etc), nautical topographic maps would certainly be useless. However,
a vessel with the appropriate instruments (GPS and depth sounder), a
topographic map of the ocean bottom is useful for determining where to >>> safely drop anchor, where to avoid so as not to drag anchor, how to
locate marine protected areas:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_protected_area>
etc).
Jeff, dropping the anchor out on the open ocean would be ridiculous.
As John B said, useful nautical charts exist around bodies of land and
where the depth and underwater obstacles can be a problem. Out on the
open ocean none of those issues exist. You don't need a chart to get
from Jamaica to Aruba.
You seem to have the bad habit of looking at things solely from your perspective and without much consideration for other possible
perspectives. Not everyone makes crossing an ocean their sole
interest. There are those who are more interested in ocean bottom features. Prospecting for mineral nodules. Searching for wrecks
filled with treasure. Touring shipwrecks. Finding a broken submarine cable. Submersible navigation. Documenting effects of ocean acidification. Underwater tourism. Someone more experienced can
surely offer a much larger list of things one can do underwater where
a map of the area would be useful.
Indeed there is enough of need and market for organisations to keep
updating such charts, I?m sure the coastal ones are much more popular as it would be used by more people, but there is also charts of the oceans as
folks do cross and doesn?t take much imagination to understand that some people will absolutely find them useful.
After all such charts do require a cost in terms of surveying.
On Thu, 3 Jul 2025 19:58:45 -0500, AMuzi <[email protected]> wrote:
OK, but Ordnance Survey maps are worth whatever they are
currently charging. Excellent resource. None of our USA
agencies or departments bring in that sort of revenue (Fees,
sure. That and more. But not actual non-compulsive revenue.)
I don't know anything about how UK handles it sale of taxpayer funded
data. Like in the US, there are independent data aggregators that
sell subscriptions. For example:
"OS Maps: Subscription" <https://www.togetherprice.com/uk/os-maps/os-maps-subscription/>
"An Ordnance Survey subscription starts at ?4.99 per month. Users can
also choose for an annual subscription which costs ?28.99 per year."
In the US, the current fad is to convert from SRTM (satellite radar topography mission) side looking radar topography to LIDAR (Light
Detection and Ranging) based aerial digital photography with greatly
improved resolution and accuracy. Much of the data was collected
using public money, which usually makes the data available for FOIA
(freedom of information act) data, which is either free or at the cost
of handling.
<https://www.usgs.gov/tools/lidarexplorer> <https://apps.nationalmap.gov/lidar-availability-viewer/> <https://coast.noaa.gov/digitalcoast/>
I'm trying to learn how to build and use GNSS (global navigation
satellite system) RTK (real time kinematics) which can produce
repeatability and accuracy down to the mm level. <https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/what-is-gps-rtk/all>
For example, Google (Trusted Partner) Street View 360 degree imaging,
on a bicycle, inside underground tunnels, using RTK. <https://www.ardusimple.com/collecting-imagery-in-pedestrian-tunnels-with-rtkins-simplertk2b-f9r/>
OK, but Ordnance Survey maps are worth whatever they are
currently charging. Excellent resource. None of our USA
agencies or departments bring in that sort of revenue (Fees,
sure. That and more. But not actual non-compulsive revenue.)
On 3 Jul 2025 21:52:21 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
Indeed there is enough of need and market for organisations to keep >updating such charts, I?m sure the coastal ones are much more popular as it >would be used by more people, but there is also charts of the oceans as >folks do cross and doesn?t take much imagination to understand that some >people will absolutely find them useful.
Apparently, it requires more imagination than is available in the
newsgroup. I guess I also qualify. When I was trying to list the applications that might benefit from under water topography and
monument maps, I couldn't recall very many mostly because I'm still
tired from the last 3 days of firewood stacking.
Also, a major reason for updating published maps is that error are
deemed sufficient justification for yet another lawsuit. Examples: <https://www.google.com/search?q=lawsuit%20inaccurate%20maps>
Even Google, which spends considerable time and effort keeping their
maps up to date was sued for what appears to be someone complaining
that Google does too good a job. Some people believe that being
successful considered monopoly building.
Do something badly and I get sues. Do the same thing better than
anyone else, and I still get sued.
"Google Wins Dismissal of Class Action Suit Over Mapping Products in California Federal Court" <https://www.pymnts.com/cpi-posts/google-wins-dismissal-of-class-action-suit-over-mapping-products-in-california-federal-court/>
"...dismissing a proposed class action lawsuit that alleged
restrictive practices in its digital-mapping products".
After all such charts do require a cost in terms of surveying.
Most maps use government funded data. In the UK, government mapping
is a business. <https://businessleader.co.uk/content/article/602/Ordnance-Survey-CEO:-Ask-three-questions-before-proposing-a-new-business-idea>
"Ordnance Survey was founded in 1791 and specializes in making
detailed maps of Great Britain. It is owned by the government but
operates like a business. It recently reported annual revenues of more
than ?180m."
Another point which has been repeatedly made to him, which he doesn't
quite seem to understand.
Here's Krygowski, once again, posting about me. I'll bet he dreams
about me. Note that whereas Krygowski's obsession with me centers
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 17:52:20 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 17:56:20 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
Well, yes, Jeff. Other people do have other interests, so their needs
are different than mine. I'm not responsible for getting other people
to where they want to go, so why should have any interest in
considering other people's navigation needs?
However, if other people's needs were the same as yours, does that
mean you're not responsible for getting them where they want to go?
You seem to be suggesting that when speaking about something from my perspective I should also suggest that there are other perspectives. I
guess I just assume people will know that.
That's about as logical as you suggesting that because you're not >interested in some topic, all the other readers of this newsgroup
should be equally disinterested. Yes, I know you didn't say that, but >that's where you're heading.
No, that's not ever where I'm headed.
Why do you expect anyone to listen to
your opinions when you don't care about their interests or their
associated opinions?
Well, actually, I don't have any such expectations.
You really don't need to inform your readers
that you don't care about some topic or activity. Simply not
mentioning that you don't care should be sufficient.
Yes, indeed. There's many things mentioned here on RBT that I don't
address.
I was addressing this issue as a sailor going from port to port.
No, that's not what started this thread. You mentioned in:
This discussion started with references to using GPS for
transportation.
<https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=129434&group=rec.bicycles.tech#129434>
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I
would have seen them.....
There are charts in around land forms where you can have markers. You
could have coordinates out on the ocean and sail towards them, but
maps out on the ocean would be useless.
My main concern is your incorrect claim that "maps out on the ocean
would be useless". They might be useless to you, but as others and I
have demonstrated, there are large numbers of ocean maps which show >features not found on coastline or ocean surface maps. I find these
maps very interesting and sometimes useful. I would be quite happy if
you would simply admit that such maps might be useful to people who do
not limit themselves to using the oceans for highway transportation.
Ok, some people might find mapping the ocean bottom and establishing coordinates on the surface to be useful.
I'll point out that this discussion began with people addressing GPS
use for transportation, so I guess I erred in assuming that was the
issue.
To be on the safe side, I'll also admit that mapping the "stars" can
be useful, too.
and as usual you add nothing to the cnversation.
He adds evidence of his continuing obsession with me!
Am 29.06.2025 um 14:45 schrieb Wolfgang Strobl:
Not sure about that. IMHO there are two modes: memorizing a course and using your memory to recognize waypoints, or using an electronic map
with a course and an indication of your current position. I my
experience it takes quite some time to switch between those two modes, which might give the impression that you've lost the other mode.
After some experiments with riding both by memory _and_ using the electronic map as a guidance, I formed a habit to avoid a switch as much
as possible.
My favourite navigation method is to use coarse navigation by memory, combined with route fine-tuning by electronic devices ("Oh, this route turning left here looks nice, is it a meaningful alternative to the
planned route turning left 2 miles up the road?").
I sometimes fail in the car when the road I want to turn into
unexpectedly turns out to be a small farm lane (on the bicycle, aligning expectations with reality usually is fast enough to not miss a turn).
Am 30.06.2025 um 17:16 schrieb Frank Krygowski:
On 6/30/2025 9:41 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
My favourite navigation method is to use coarse navigation by memory,
combined with route fine-tuning by electronic devices ("Oh, this route
turning left here looks nice, is it a meaningful alternative to the
planned route turning left 2 miles up the road?").
One of the benefits of riding with a bike club is that volunteer ride leaders take pains to show off nice roads, roads with beautiful views or items of interest. For me, the downside is having to use the car to get
to a distant starting point, plus seldom knowing exactly where I am
during the ride. Yes, I guess I could use gizmos to record those routes, but I just don't bother.
For me, one of the major advantages of these "gizmos" is that hiking
once a month with my (ex-)colleages since 2020, I have seen more
spectacluar scenery than in the 20 years before (having moved to
Heidelberg in 2001). <https://www.komoot.com/de-de/collection/2880228/-kollegenwanderungen>
In the first year, one retired "hiking guide of 20 years" showed us a
lot, but after that we've been sucessful in finding new amazing
destinations each month thanks to Komoot. I am now able to plan and
organize nice hikes in places I've never been to before.
On Fri Jul 4 04:10:18 2025 Catrike Ryder wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 17:52:20 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 17:56:20 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
Well, yes, Jeff. Other people do have other interests, so their needs
are different than mine. I'm not responsible for getting other people
to where they want to go, so why should have any interest in
considering other people's navigation needs?
However, if other people's needs were the same as yours, does that
mean you're not responsible for getting them where they want to go?
You seem to be suggesting that when speaking about something from my
perspective I should also suggest that there are other perspectives. I
guess I just assume people will know that.
That's about as logical as you suggesting that because you're not
interested in some topic, all the other readers of this newsgroup
should be equally disinterested. Yes, I know you didn't say that, but
that's where you're heading.
No, that's not ever where I'm headed.
Why do you expect anyone to listen to
your opinions when you don't care about their interests or their
associated opinions?
Well, actually, I don't have any such expectations.
You really don't need to inform your readers
that you don't care about some topic or activity. Simply not
mentioning that you don't care should be sufficient.
Yes, indeed. There's many things mentioned here on RBT that I don't
address.
I was addressing this issue as a sailor going from port to port.
No, that's not what started this thread. You mentioned in:
This discussion started with references to using GPS for
transportation.
<https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=129434&group=rec.bicycles.tech#129434>
No Roger, there aren't any maps out on the ocean because there are no
markers out in the ocean. trust me on this. I've been out there and I
would have seen them.....
There are charts in around land forms where you can have markers. You
could have coordinates out on the ocean and sail towards them, but
maps out on the ocean would be useless.
My main concern is your incorrect claim that "maps out on the ocean
would be useless". They might be useless to you, but as others and I
have demonstrated, there are large numbers of ocean maps which show
features not found on coastline or ocean surface maps. I find these
maps very interesting and sometimes useful. I would be quite happy if
you would simply admit that such maps might be useful to people who do
not limit themselves to using the oceans for highway transportation.
Ok, some people might find mapping the ocean bottom and establishing
coordinates on the surface to be useful.
I'll point out that this discussion began with people addressing GPS
use for transportation, so I guess I erred in assuming that was the
issue.
To be on the safe side, I'll also admit that mapping the "stars" can
be useful, too.
If tranoceanic cables are damaged you use reflection of an electronic signal to tell HOW FAR out on the cable the damage is. Then a ship lifts the cable starting from the nearest port out of the water and if the damage isn't too severe, it is repaired.
Transoceanic communications is radio links between satellites to the surface now and so cables are more or less unnecessary. As usual Liebermann know nothing about what he is talking about and is our Genius in charge of stupidity.
On Tue Jul 1 12:09:03 2025 Roger Merriman wrote:
Which is what Frank was talking about! Ie the car sat nav saying it?s a
closed road, which absolutely happens in less built up areas, I find that
modern Satnavs cope well with satellite drop outs, and keep with prompts,
back to maps really in urban/suburban areas absolutely maps even free stuff >> like google maps works fine, but not so much once it?s more rural or into
the hills where it doesn?t.
That's interesting. How do you tell a Satellite drop out if you have compensating softwae? My 1030 has a built in compass and with wheel
sensors I would think that you would never know that a Satellite dropped below the horizon.
On Thu Jul 3 20:07:43 2025 John B. wrote:
You are on a voyage out of sight of land (crossing
Atlantic in small sailboat) that will take a number of weeks out of
sight of land and you go through all that?
why not just noon sights and a sextant if you are really fussy.
Because this is nothing more than more lies from Lie bermann.
He couldn't take a simple noon sight if his life depended on it.
Roger, those charts are fairly easy to make since beyond the continental shelf, there is no detail.
And only until you get close to shore do you know latitude and longitude.
So oceanic charts show land masses in their proper spots and shallow water details and the oceans are blue on the charts.
And precisely who cares?
Transoceanic cables used to be necessary for intercontinental communications but now w have communications satellites and cables are falling into disrepair. Unless there is something to hit oceanic charts have no detail. And the transoceanic charts haveland masses only accurate for latitude and longitude which are known from original navigational measurements and now GPS.
Catrike and John Slocomb are entirely correct about that and Flunky and Liebermann are doing nothing but showing their ignorance.
On Fri, 04 Jul 2025 18:02:01 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>have land masses only accurate for latitude and longitude which are known from original navigational measurements and now GPS.
wrote:
Roger, those charts are fairly easy to make since beyond the continental shelf, there is no detail.
What kind of detail is missing? Lane lines for fish?
There's actually quite a bit of detail. Most of it was generated with
Sonar, which is far less accurate than aerial LIDAR. If you want
details of the ocean bottom, you need to find a bathymetric map, which
shows water depth in detail.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathymetry>
Notice the top right map showing the continental shelf.
And only until you get close to shore do you know latitude and longitude.
That's wrong and really amazing. So why do most nautical maps show
lat-long over areas covered with water? If lat-long ends at the
shoreline, the lines would not be needed.
So oceanic charts show land masses in their proper spots and shallow water details and the oceans are blue on the charts.
Wrong again. Paint a map of the world on an inflatable rubber ball to
form a globe. Add some extra air to make the ball larger diameter.
The relative position of the latitude and longitude lines doesn't
change. What does change is the distance between the latitude and
longitude lines. In other words, +30 degrees from the prime meridian
is in the same relative position no matter how large or small the
globe. Another clue is that you can buy globes in a wide variety of >diameters. Despite the changes in diameter, the relative position of >everything on the globe is the same.
You could claim that things are closer together on the ocean bottom
then they are on the surface of the planet. That's true, but does it
really matter? The deepest ocean trench is the Mariana Trench at
11,000 meters deep. The radius of the planet is about 6,363,000
meters. A 100 meter long vessel on the surface. How much would the
vessel shrink if ocean depth was considered in the lat-long
calculations? We have 2 similar right triangles. The larger triangle
has the opposite side equal to 100 meters and base of 3,363,000 meters
(from the ocean surface to the center of the earth). The smaller
triangle has an unknown opposite side, a base of:
3,363,000 - 11,000 = 6,353,000 meters
The included angle is the same for both triangles (similar triangles).
100 / 3,363,000 = X / 6,353,000
X = 99.84 meters.
Therefore the sunken boat has shrunk 0.16 meters or 16 cm.
That's what's commonly known as a trivial amount. Therefore it
doesn't really matter how deep you are in the ocean. The latitude and >longitude lines don't change enough to matter.
And precisely who cares?
And precisely why to is matter if anyone cares or doesn't care? The
math is the same whether you care, or not.
Transoceanic cables used to be necessary for intercontinental communications but now w have communications satellites and cables are falling into disrepair. Unless there is something to hit oceanic charts have no detail. And the transoceanic charts
Catrike and John Slocomb are entirely correct about that and Flunky and Liebermann are doing nothing but showing their ignorance.
Baloney as usual.
On 7/4/2025 1:21 PM, cyclintom wrote:
If tranoceanic cables are damaged you use reflection of an electronic signal to tell HOW FAR out on the cable the damage is.
Then a ship lifts the cable starting from the nearest port out of the water and if the damage isn't too severe, it is repaired.
Transoceanic communications is radio links between satellites to the surface now and so cables are more or less unnecessary. As usual Liebermann know nothing about what he is talking about and is our Genius in charge of stupidity.
Your comment, " ship lifts the cable starting from the
nearest port out of the water" is absolutely ridiculous. No
one in his right mind could believe that.
https://www.onesteppower.com/post/subsea-cable-repair
On Tue Jul 1 12:59:42 2025 Catrike Ryder wrote:
Another undocumented anecdote?
Here's some facts.... A paper map can't tell you where you are and
how far from where you want to be.
I suppose if a person uses his GPS mostly to go out and back on a flat
bike path, he'd find it to be perfectly reliable.
My GPS worked fine in Mexico, Honduras, and all over the Caribbean.
There aren't any maps out on the ocean.
ruse my sexton to measure distance off shore. That was nesessary for
I agree though the early GPS's could be off a mile of two and I would
On Fri, 04 Jul 2025 18:27:43 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <[email protected]>have land masses only accurate for latitude and longitude which are known from original navigational measurements and now GPS.
wrote:
On Fri, 04 Jul 2025 18:02:01 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
Roger, those charts are fairly easy to make since beyond the continental shelf, there is no detail.
What kind of detail is missing? Lane lines for fish?
There's actually quite a bit of detail. Most of it was generated with >>Sonar, which is far less accurate than aerial LIDAR. If you want
details of the ocean bottom, you need to find a bathymetric map, which >>shows water depth in detail.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathymetry>
Notice the top right map showing the continental shelf.
And only until you get close to shore do you know latitude and longitude.
That's wrong and really amazing. So why do most nautical maps show >>lat-long over areas covered with water? If lat-long ends at the
shoreline, the lines would not be needed.
So oceanic charts show land masses in their proper spots and shallow water details and the oceans are blue on the charts.
Wrong again. Paint a map of the world on an inflatable rubber ball to
form a globe. Add some extra air to make the ball larger diameter.
The relative position of the latitude and longitude lines doesn't
change. What does change is the distance between the latitude and >>longitude lines. In other words, +30 degrees from the prime meridian
is in the same relative position no matter how large or small the
globe. Another clue is that you can buy globes in a wide variety of >>diameters. Despite the changes in diameter, the relative position of >>everything on the globe is the same.
You could claim that things are closer together on the ocean bottom
then they are on the surface of the planet. That's true, but does it >>really matter? The deepest ocean trench is the Mariana Trench at
11,000 meters deep. The radius of the planet is about 6,363,000
meters. A 100 meter long vessel on the surface. How much would the
vessel shrink if ocean depth was considered in the lat-long
calculations? We have 2 similar right triangles. The larger triangle
has the opposite side equal to 100 meters and base of 3,363,000 meters >>(from the ocean surface to the center of the earth). The smaller
triangle has an unknown opposite side, a base of:
3,363,000 - 11,000 = 6,353,000 meters
The included angle is the same for both triangles (similar triangles).
100 / 3,363,000 = X / 6,353,000
X = 99.84 meters.
Therefore the sunken boat has shrunk 0.16 meters or 16 cm.
That's what's commonly known as a trivial amount. Therefore it
doesn't really matter how deep you are in the ocean. The latitude and >>longitude lines don't change enough to matter.
And precisely who cares?
And precisely why to is matter if anyone cares or doesn't care? The
math is the same whether you care, or not.
Transoceanic cables used to be necessary for intercontinental communications but now w have communications satellites and cables are falling into disrepair. Unless there is something to hit oceanic charts have no detail. And the transoceanic charts
Catrike and John Slocomb are entirely correct about that and Flunky and Liebermann are doing nothing but showing their ignorance.
Baloney as usual.
I'm pretty sure I never claimed that latitude and longitude aren't
sigificant anywhere on the globe.
cyclintom <[email protected]> wrote:
On Tue Jul 1 12:09:03 2025 Roger Merriman wrote:
Which is what Frank was talking about! Ie the car sat nav saying it?s a
closed road, which absolutely happens in less built up areas, I find that >>> modern Satnavs cope well with satellite drop outs, and keep with prompts, >>> back to maps really in urban/suburban areas absolutely maps even free stuff >>> like google maps works fine, but not so much once it?s more rural or into >>> the hills where it doesn?t.
That's interesting. How do you tell a Satellite drop out if you have
compensating softwae? My 1030 has a built in compass and with wheel
sensors I would think that you would never know that a Satellite dropped below the horizon.
The 830 will display lost GPS signal or similar wording, but it�s almost >always due tunnels and so on, the Tom Tom app on the phone car Sat Nav will >make best guess in a similar situation ie display speed and where it
expects you to be now?
Both will display that they have lost GPS signal, so you�re aware that it�s >making estimates.
Roger Merriman
On Fri, 4 Jul 2025 13:59:48 -0500, AMuzi <[email protected]> wrote:
On 7/4/2025 1:21 PM, cyclintom wrote:
If tranoceanic cables are damaged you use reflection of an electronic signal to tell HOW FAR out on the cable the damage is.
It's called a TDR (time domain reflectometer). For long undersea
cables without repeaters, they run two TDR tests, one from each end of
the cable. The location of the break is calculated from the ratio of
the two measured time delays and the known end to end length. For
example, if the end to end length from New York to Scotland is 5,300
km, and the ratio of the two reflected signals was 2:7, the break is
at:
2 / 7 * 5,300 meters = 1,514 meters from the "2" end.
On 4 Jul 2025 20:27:16 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
cyclintom <[email protected]> wrote:
On Tue Jul 1 12:09:03 2025 Roger Merriman wrote:
Which is what Frank was talking about! Ie the car sat nav saying it?s a >>>> closed road, which absolutely happens in less built up areas, I find that >>>> modern Satnavs cope well with satellite drop outs, and keep with prompts, >>>> back to maps really in urban/suburban areas absolutely maps even free stuff
like google maps works fine, but not so much once it?s more rural or into >>>> the hills where it doesn?t.
That's interesting. How do you tell a Satellite drop out if you have
compensating softwae? My 1030 has a built in compass and with wheel
sensors I would think that you would never know that a Satellite
dropped below the horizon.
The 830 will display lost GPS signal or similar wording, but its almost
always due tunnels and so on, the Tom Tom app on the phone car Sat Nav will >> make best guess in a similar situation ie display speed and where it
expects you to be now?
Both will display that they have lost GPS signal, so youre aware that its
making estimates.
Roger Merriman
The latest greatest GPS receivers now include an inertial navigation
module in addition to all the GPS related gizmos. What's nice about
inertial navigation is that is works where there's no satellite
signals, such as in tunnels, underground garages, under bridges and in
areas shadowed by trees or buildings. When the GPS receiver detects a
loss of signal, the device switches to getting updates from the
inertial navigation model. When the satellite signal returns, it
switches back to using satellite data.
"GPS/INS"
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS/INS>
"VN-200 Rugged GPS-Aided Inertial Navigation System (GPS/INS)" <https://www.navtechgps.com/vn_200_rugged_gps_aided_inertial_navigation_system_gpsins_/>
"GNSS-INS Solutions: IMUs for Inertial Navigation" <https://www.navtechgps.com/departments/inertial-navigation/>
I don't know if Garmin has a product that includes inertial
navigation. I don't think so mostly because of the high cost.
On Fri, 04 Jul 2025 21:37:50 -0400, Catrike Ryderhave land masses only accurate for latitude and longitude which are known from original navigational measurements and now GPS.
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Fri, 04 Jul 2025 18:27:43 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <[email protected]> >>wrote:
On Fri, 04 Jul 2025 18:02:01 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
Roger, those charts are fairly easy to make since beyond the continental shelf, there is no detail.
What kind of detail is missing? Lane lines for fish?
There's actually quite a bit of detail. Most of it was generated with >>>Sonar, which is far less accurate than aerial LIDAR. If you want
details of the ocean bottom, you need to find a bathymetric map, which >>>shows water depth in detail.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathymetry>
Notice the top right map showing the continental shelf.
And only until you get close to shore do you know latitude and longitude. >>>That's wrong and really amazing. So why do most nautical maps show >>>lat-long over areas covered with water? If lat-long ends at the >>>shoreline, the lines would not be needed.
So oceanic charts show land masses in their proper spots and shallow water details and the oceans are blue on the charts.
Wrong again. Paint a map of the world on an inflatable rubber ball to >>>form a globe. Add some extra air to make the ball larger diameter.
The relative position of the latitude and longitude lines doesn't
change. What does change is the distance between the latitude and >>>longitude lines. In other words, +30 degrees from the prime meridian
is in the same relative position no matter how large or small the
globe. Another clue is that you can buy globes in a wide variety of >>>diameters. Despite the changes in diameter, the relative position of >>>everything on the globe is the same.
You could claim that things are closer together on the ocean bottom
then they are on the surface of the planet. That's true, but does it >>>really matter? The deepest ocean trench is the Mariana Trench at
11,000 meters deep. The radius of the planet is about 6,363,000
meters. A 100 meter long vessel on the surface. How much would the >>>vessel shrink if ocean depth was considered in the lat-long
calculations? We have 2 similar right triangles. The larger triangle >>>has the opposite side equal to 100 meters and base of 3,363,000 meters >>>(from the ocean surface to the center of the earth). The smaller >>>triangle has an unknown opposite side, a base of:
3,363,000 - 11,000 = 6,353,000 meters
The included angle is the same for both triangles (similar triangles).
100 / 3,363,000 = X / 6,353,000
X = 99.84 meters.
Therefore the sunken boat has shrunk 0.16 meters or 16 cm.
That's what's commonly known as a trivial amount. Therefore it
doesn't really matter how deep you are in the ocean. The latitude and >>>longitude lines don't change enough to matter.
And precisely who cares?
And precisely why to is matter if anyone cares or doesn't care? The
math is the same whether you care, or not.
Transoceanic cables used to be necessary for intercontinental communications but now w have communications satellites and cables are falling into disrepair. Unless there is something to hit oceanic charts have no detail. And the transoceanic charts
Catrike and John Slocomb are entirely correct about that and Flunky and Liebermann are doing nothing but showing their ignorance.
Baloney as usual.
I'm pretty sure I never claimed that latitude and longitude aren't >>sigificant anywhere on the globe.
You didn't claim that. Nor did anyone else. I re-read the last few
messages and can't find any mention by anyone that lat-long was >insignificant. If it's important to you, please cut-n-paste the
relevent section where you read that lat-long is not significant and
I'll try to determine what happened.
Jeff Liebermann <[email protected]> wrote:
On 4 Jul 2025 20:27:16 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:Certainly not the xx30 line which I and Tom have which just displays a line >though speed, but the Tom Tom App does appear to keep going but as it�s on
cyclintom <[email protected]> wrote:
On Tue Jul 1 12:09:03 2025 Roger Merriman wrote:
Which is what Frank was talking about! Ie the car sat nav saying it?s a >>>>> closed road, which absolutely happens in less built up areas, I find that >>>>> modern Satnavs cope well with satellite drop outs, and keep with prompts, >>>>> back to maps really in urban/suburban areas absolutely maps even free stuff
like google maps works fine, but not so much once it?s more rural or into >>>>> the hills where it doesn?t.
That's interesting. How do you tell a Satellite drop out if you have
compensating softwae? My 1030 has a built in compass and with wheel
sensors I would think that you would never know that a Satellite
dropped below the horizon.
The 830 will display lost GPS signal or similar wording, but it?s almost >>> always due tunnels and so on, the Tom Tom app on the phone car Sat Nav will >>> make best guess in a similar situation ie display speed and where it
expects you to be now?
Both will display that they have lost GPS signal, so you?re aware that it?s >>> making estimates.
Roger Merriman
The latest greatest GPS receivers now include an inertial navigation
module in addition to all the GPS related gizmos. What's nice about
inertial navigation is that is works where there's no satellite
signals, such as in tunnels, underground garages, under bridges and in
areas shadowed by trees or buildings. When the GPS receiver detects a
loss of signal, the device switches to getting updates from the
inertial navigation model. When the satellite signal returns, it
switches back to using satellite data.
"GPS/INS"
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS/INS>
"VN-200 Rugged GPS-Aided Inertial Navigation System (GPS/INS)"
<https://www.navtechgps.com/vn_200_rugged_gps_aided_inertial_navigation_system_gpsins_/>
"GNSS-INS Solutions: IMUs for Inertial Navigation"
<https://www.navtechgps.com/departments/inertial-navigation/>
I don't know if Garmin has a product that includes inertial
navigation. I don't think so mostly because of the high cost.
a mobile it maybe also able to leverage the transmitter towers?
Roger Merriman
I'm pretty sure I never claimed that latitude and longitude aren't
sigificant anywhere on the globe.
You didn't claim that. Nor did anyone else. I re-read the last few
messages and can't find any mention by anyone that lat-long was insignificant. If it's important to you, please cut-n-paste the
relevent section where you read that lat-long is not significant and
I'll try to determine what happened.
On Fri Jul 4 18:27:43 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Liebermann, where did you ever do any sailing other than riding over to this country in a ship as a baby?
I providsed a picture of my degree in Commercial Naviation and you're telling me that you know more about it than I do?
I say that the comments of Catrike and John Slocomb are dead on and you're telling us that they aren't and you know better. You do this about everything you know nothing about.
Does it not bother you that they were giving taxpayer money for MediCal to all of the illegals so that YOUR treatments and payments were coming last? ALL of the ER rooms are filled to capacity and your health was endangered. Specialists were notavailable and you're talking about NAVIGATION? You know nothing about this subject and are avoiding the subjects that are of paramont importance to your life. Why are you doing that?
If you were complaining about the heart damage that most mRNA recipients recieved you would have half of the world agreeing with you. Why does that not seem to matter to you? You woulkd much rather talk all day about things that you're entirelyuninformed about. Wake up and smell the roses.
My JOB for 4 years was repairing navigational computers in the Air Force
On Sat, 05 Jul 2025 21:41:07 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
My JOB for 4 years was repairing navigational computers in the Air Force
You claim to have been in the Air Force from May 1961 to some month in
1965.
On Fri, 4 Jul 2025 13:59:48 -0500, AMuzi <[email protected]> wrote:
On 7/4/2025 1:21 PM, cyclintom wrote:
If tranoceanic cables are damaged you use reflection of an electronic signal to tell HOW FAR out on the cable the damage is.
It's called a TDR (time domain reflectometer). For long undersea
cables without repeaters, they run two TDR tests, one from each end of
the cable. The location of the break is calculated from the ratio of
the two measured time delays and the known end to end length. For
example, if the end to end length from New York to Scotland is 5,300
km, and the ratio of the two reflected signals was 2:7, the break is
at:
2 / 7 * 5,300 meters = 1,514 meters from the "2" end.
The reason it's done like this is because it removes all the errors
caused by changes in the cable velocity factor by changes in the speed
of propagation along the cable.
Then a ship lifts the cable starting from the nearest port out of the water and if the damage isn't too severe, it is repaired.
Nope. If they pull on the cable near the shore, it will rip the cable
out of the "cable house" where the cable terminates. There has to be
some drag by the cable on the ocean bottom to prevent such destructive disassembly.
Transoceanic communications is radio links between satellites to the surface now and so cables are more or less unnecessary. As usual Liebermann know nothing about what he is talking about and is our Genius in charge of stupidity.
Tom. I'm not a genius, but I do know more than you do.
Your comment, " ship lifts the cable starting from the
nearest port out of the water" is absolutely ridiculous. No
one in his right mind could believe that.
https://www.onesteppower.com/post/subsea-cable-repair
Yep.
Proof of yet more imaginary tales from the dumbass. If he was ever
really out sailing in the Caribbean (or sailing anywhere) he'd know
that nautical maps are practically a requirement.
gawd what a fucking loser....
On 7/4/2025 6:42 AM, zen cycle wrote:
On 7/3/2025 8:52 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2025 17:56:20 -0400, Catrike Ryder
<[email protected]> wrote:
Well, yes, Jeff. Other people do have other interests, so their needs
are different than mine. I'm not responsible for getting other people
to where they want to go, so why should have any interest in
considering other people's navigation needs?
However, if other people's needs were the same as yours, does that
mean you're not responsible for getting them where they want to go?
That's about as logical as you suggesting that because you're not
interested in some topic, all the other readers of this newsgroup
should be equally disinterested. Yes, I know you didn't say that, but >> that's where you're heading.
He's pretty much overtly stated that he doesn't understand why people engage in discussions on subjects he's not interested in (hence the many comments to him regarding the purpose of a discussion group).
Why do you expect anyone to listen to
your opinions when you don't care about their interests or their
associated opinions? You really don't need to inform your readers
that you don't care about some topic or activity. Simply not
mentioning that you don't care should be sufficient.
Another point which has been repeatedly made to him, which he doesn't
quite seem to understand.
ISTM that nearly all of Mr. Tricycle's comments fit into just a few categories:
1) "I dislike [whatever someone has mentioned]" That could be riding
with friends, or talking to acquaintances, or riding on normal streets,
or a dozen other things.
2) "I'm not interested in [whatever the topic happens to be]." As if we
need to keep an inventory of his disinterests.
3) Snarks at whatever I've posted on any topic at all. He imagines my
life must be as limited as his, so he inflates his self image by
pretending all my experiences are imaginary or worthless.
4) MAGA posts replaying whatever his dear leaders said this week.
His few remaining posts are mostly details about his spreadsheet records
of oiling his chain, or shopping for a pickup truck, or other things
that draw zero interest from anyone here with an actual life.
On 7/1/2025 1:26 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:
On 7/1/2025 1:13 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
floriduh dumbass wrote:
On Tue, 1 Jul 2025 11:16:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 7/1/2025 10:30 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
his response was "yeah....gps doesn't really work out
here...."
We got exactly the same remark during a trip to Cape Breton a few years >>>> ago. We were following a coastal road when the GPS instructed us to
turn
left and head uphill. I stopped and checked a paper map. The road to >>>> the
left was gravel, and would have taken us on an empty loop that returned >>>> to the paved coastal road a few miles up ahead.
Another undocumented anecdote?
It's called conversation, dumbass. If you don't want to participate,He can't stop. Maybe a some intense therapy could help? I don't know.
shut the fuck up. You're only re-enforcing your image of a pathetic
loser with an obsession for Frank.
That's not my field.
But as others have said, his obsession with me doesn't make him look good.
On Fri, 04 Jul 2025 15:49:00 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Tue Jul 1 12:59:42 2025 Catrike Ryder wrote:
Another undocumented anecdote?
Here's some facts.... A paper map can't tell you where you are and
how far from where you want to be.
I suppose if a person uses his GPS mostly to go out and back on a flat
bike path, he'd find it to be perfectly reliable.
My GPS worked fine in Mexico, Honduras, and all over the Caribbean.
There aren't any maps out on the ocean.
ruse my sexton to measure distance off shore. That was nesessary for
I agree though the early GPS's could be off a mile of two and I would
large racing yachts that I was a navigator on.
as a 'sextant" measures angles it is kind of interesting how you used
it to measure distance
On Sat, 05 Jul 2025 21:41:07 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
My JOB for 4 years was repairing navigational computers in the Air Force
You claim to have been in the Air Force from May 1961 to some month in
1965. By navigation computers, I presume you mean something that flys
in a USAF airplane. Transistors arrived in the late 1950's. The >microprocessor was introduced in the early 1970's. In your time
frame, the technology was either analog, mechanical or tubes.
So, which type of aviation navigation computers were you repairing on
Guam? Lorenz blind landing, mechanical (cams and gears), analog,
Consolan, Omega, Loran A, etc.
"History of computing hardware (1960s - present)" ><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_computing_hardware_(1960s%E2%80%93present)>
On Fri Jul 4 18:49:54 2025 John B. wrote:
On Fri, 04 Jul 2025 15:49:00 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Tue Jul 1 12:59:42 2025 Catrike Ryder wrote:use my sexton to measure distance off shore. That was nesessary for
Another undocumented anecdote?
Here's some facts.... A paper map can't tell you where you are and
how far from where you want to be.
I suppose if a person uses his GPS mostly to go out and back on a flat >> >> >bike path, he'd find it to be perfectly reliable.
My GPS worked fine in Mexico, Honduras, and all over the Caribbean.
There aren't any maps out on the ocean.
r
I agree though the early GPS's could be off a mile of two and I would
large racing yachts that I was a navigator on.
as a 'sextant" measures angles it is kind of interesting how you used
it to measure distance
John, you can use a sexton to measure the angles between two points and then simply calculate where those two lines cross. Or you can use a sexton to take a noon sight giving you a latitude and a sunrise to give you a longitude
My use of higher mathmatics and English needed no college course and sticking in any extraneous skilll simply to the that college could make more money is preposterous.
On Sat, 05 Jul 2025 23:05:06 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>imply calculate where those two lines cross. Or you can use a sexton
wrote:
On Fri Jul 4 18:49:54 2025 John B. wrote:
On Fri, 04 Jul 2025 15:49:00 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Tue Jul 1 12:59:42 2025 Catrike Ryder wrote:use my sexton to measure distance off shore. That was nesessary for
Another undocumented anecdote?
Here's some facts.... A paper map can't tell you where you are and
how far from where you want to be.
I suppose if a person uses his GPS mostly to go out and back on a flat >>> >> >bike path, he'd find it to be perfectly reliable.
My GPS worked fine in Mexico, Honduras, and all over the Caribbean.
There aren't any maps out on the ocean.
r
I agree though the early GPS's could be off a mile of two and I would
large racing yachts that I was a navigator on.
as a 'sextant" measures angles it is kind of interesting how you used
it to measure distance
John, you can use a sexton to measure the angles between two points and then s
Tom. The instrument is called a "sextant", not a "sexton. These are >sextants:--
<https://www.google.com/search?q=sextant&udm=2>
and this is a sexton:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexton_(office)>
"A sexton is an officer of a church, congregation, or synagogue
charged with the maintenance of its buildings and/or an associated
cemetery."
Calculating latitude from a noon sight is well known. However, I
didn't know that you could obtain the longitude from sunrise sighting.
How is that done?
Incidentally, taking a sighting near or at the horizon is almost
impossible. Atmospheric diffraction changes the effective size of the
sun. It also blurs the edge of the sun producing a fuzzy reading.
There's no way to view the base (lowest point) of the sun disk at the >horizon, which is likely to be obscured by land, distant clouds, cold
front or most likely, fog. I also couldn't find any altitude
correction tables for apparent altitudes less than about 9 degrees.
Unless I missed something, I don't think it can be done.
On 5 Jul 2025 04:31:16 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
Jeff Liebermann <[email protected]> wrote:
On 4 Jul 2025 20:27:16 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:Certainly not the xx30 line which I and Tom have which just displays a line >> though speed, but the Tom Tom App does appear to keep going but as its on >> a mobile it maybe also able to leverage the transmitter towers?
cyclintom <[email protected]> wrote:
On Tue Jul 1 12:09:03 2025 Roger Merriman wrote:
Which is what Frank was talking about! Ie the car sat nav saying it?s a >>>>>> closed road, which absolutely happens in less built up areas, I find that
modern Satnavs cope well with satellite drop outs, and keep with prompts,
back to maps really in urban/suburban areas absolutely maps even free stuff
like google maps works fine, but not so much once it?s more rural or into
the hills where it doesn?t.
That's interesting. How do you tell a Satellite drop out if you have >>>>> compensating softwae? My 1030 has a built in compass and with wheel
sensors I would think that you would never know that a Satellite
dropped below the horizon.
The 830 will display lost GPS signal or similar wording, but it?s almost >>>> always due tunnels and so on, the Tom Tom app on the phone car Sat Nav will
make best guess in a similar situation ie display speed and where it
expects you to be now?
Both will display that they have lost GPS signal, so you?re aware that it?s
making estimates.
Roger Merriman
The latest greatest GPS receivers now include an inertial navigation
module in addition to all the GPS related gizmos. What's nice about
inertial navigation is that is works where there's no satellite
signals, such as in tunnels, underground garages, under bridges and in
areas shadowed by trees or buildings. When the GPS receiver detects a
loss of signal, the device switches to getting updates from the
inertial navigation model. When the satellite signal returns, it
switches back to using satellite data.
"GPS/INS"
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS/INS>
"VN-200 Rugged GPS-Aided Inertial Navigation System (GPS/INS)"
<https://www.navtechgps.com/vn_200_rugged_gps_aided_inertial_navigation_system_gpsins_/>
"GNSS-INS Solutions: IMUs for Inertial Navigation"
<https://www.navtechgps.com/departments/inertial-navigation/>
I don't know if Garmin has a product that includes inertial
navigation. I don't think so mostly because of the high cost.
Roger Merriman
Every GPS will continue generating NEMA 0183 location data for a few
seconds after it moves into a "dead zone". Continuing to generate
live data in really bad locations usually results in random data
points scattered along the approximate track. What the GPS does is
predict where the GPS should be located if the rider continues along
the same track, in the same direction, and in a straight line. Any
positions that are radically outside of a predictable lane (usually
one road width) are discarded.
My ancient Garmin GPS45 and GPS50(?) did not have this feature and
would intermittently deliver erroneous positions all over the planet.
My equally ancient GPS76 had a different algorithm. It had two ways
to measure the speed. One was to calculate the distance between two
adjacent locations using distance divided by time. The other way was
to use Doppler shift from the satellites, which is VERY accurate. If
the two speeds are radically different, then the data is garbage and
is discarded.
Another way to remove garbage data is to calculate how fast the GPS
would need to move to travel from a previous location (or data point).
If the speed is ridiculously high, then it's likely that the current
data point is garbage and should be discarded.
You can easily tell which of these (and other) algorithms are being
used. Go for a ride in a good open location where the streets form a
grid pattern full of 90 degree turns. Ride straight and then make a
90 degree turn. Repeat several times. Record the NEMA 0183 position
reports (GLL or GGA) and plot them with something that will connect
the dots. If every 90 degree turn looks like it overshoots and then
recovers with a half-loop, then it's using some kind of predictive
track algorithm. If the track is a sharp corner, it's using an
algorithm that discards improbably high speeds. If there is a gap at
the corner, which means that a large number of points were discarded,
it's probably discarding points outside of a lane.
The problem is that NONE of the aforementioned methods work if the GPS
moves in anything other than a straight line. If the GPS goes into a
tunnel, and makes a turn while inside the tunnel, there is no way that
the GPS can predict, record or recover such an underground track. This
is why GPS receivers are starting to appear with inertial navigation features. With inertial navigation, it can record movement along any
axis (x,y,z) but with less accuracy than satellite based GPS.
Incidentally, prior to the mass adoption of GPS for vehicle location,
there were navigation systems that were based on 2 axis (x,y) inertial navigation. Basically, they were cost reduced versions of what was
found in submarines and guided missiles. One of these was a system
that measured the rotational speeds of all 4 wheels of a vehicle and
used the numbers to calculate speed and direction. It worked, but it
really hated speed bumps, potholes, and tire skids. R.I.P.
On Fri Jul 4 13:59:48 2025 AMuzi wrote:
Your comment, " ship lifts the cable starting from the
nearest port out of the water" is absolutely ridiculous. No
one in his right mind could believe that.
https://www.onesteppower.com/post/subsea-cable-repair
Andrew, how do you think that you can repair a cable 3,000 meters under water? How do you think that you can even discover where a break is? Electric cables going to or from offshore oil platforms or wind generator are repairable but you have to shutthem off and find the failures by using the same technique I explained using radio echos or matching waves. They originally could ONLY be repaired by bringing them to the surface. Now according to one of the pictures in your reference it appears that
DATA lines can be repaired robotically but this is fantastically difficult so they use redundancy rather than repair. If the cable is actually broken the repair is very difficult and involves putting this 2 or three foot diameter interface on the endsof the cables which are only a couple of inches in diameter. I expect they have automation for that now but before they simply discarded the cable and replaced it.
I have no idea how you think that past data cables consisting of copper wires were repaired but I personally saw one of the repair ships that would lift the entire cable out of the water with rollers on either end of the ship and set it back down. Theship was very large in order to float the weight of the cable.
On Fri Jul 4 18:43:13 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Fri, 4 Jul 2025 13:59:48 -0500, AMuzi <[email protected]> wrote:
On 7/4/2025 1:21 PM, cyclintom wrote:
If tranoceanic cables are damaged you use reflection of an electronic signal to tell HOW FAR out on the cable the damage is.
It's called a TDR (time domain reflectometer). For long undersea
cables without repeaters, they run two TDR tests, one from each end of
the cable. The location of the break is calculated from the ratio of
the two measured time delays and the known end to end length. For
example, if the end to end length from New York to Scotland is 5,300
km, and the ratio of the two reflected signals was 2:7, the break is
at:
2 / 7 * 5,300 meters = 1,514 meters from the "2" end.
The reason it's done like this is because it removes all the errors
caused by changes in the cable velocity factor by changes in the speed
of propagation along the cable.
Then a ship lifts the cable starting from the nearest port out of the water and if the damage isn't too severe, it is repaired.
Nope. If they pull on the cable near the shore, it will rip the cable
out of the "cable house" where the cable terminates. There has to be
some drag by the cable on the ocean bottom to prevent such destructive
disassembly.
Transoceanic communications is radio links between satellites to the surface now and so cables are more or less unnecessary. As usual Liebermann know nothing about what he is talking about and is our Genius in charge of stupidity.
Tom. I'm not a genius, but I do know more than you do.
Your comment, " ship lifts the cable starting from the
nearest port out of the water" is absolutely ridiculous. No
one in his right mind could believe that.
https://www.onesteppower.com/post/subsea-cable-repair
Yep.
I noticed that you're so smart that you don't know you only need to measure one end.
On 7/5/2025 5:40 PM, cyclintom wrote:them off and find the failures by using the same technique I explained using radio echos or matching waves. They originally could ONLY be repaired by bringing them to the surface. Now according to one of the pictures in your reference it appears that
On Fri Jul 4 13:59:48 2025 AMuzi wrote:
Your comment, " ship lifts the cable starting from the
nearest port out of the water" is absolutely ridiculous. No
one in his right mind could believe that.
https://www.onesteppower.com/post/subsea-cable-repair
Andrew, how do you think that you can repair a cable 3,000 meters under water? How do you think that you can even discover where a break is? Electric cables going to or from offshore oil platforms or wind generator are repairable but you have to shut
of the cables which are only a couple of inches in diameter. I expect they have automation for that now but before they simply discarded the cable and replaced it.
DATA lines can be repaired robotically but this is fantastically difficult so they use redundancy rather than repair. If the cable is actually broken the repair is very difficult and involves putting this 2 or three foot diameter interface on the ends
ship was very large in order to float the weight of the cable.
I have no idea how you think that past data cables consisting of copper wires were repaired but I personally saw one of the repair ships that would lift the entire cable out of the water with rollers on either end of the ship and set it back down. The
Had you read the link I posted, you would not have written,
"ship lifts the cable starting from the nearest port out of
the water" which is ridiculous and absurd.
And had you read the link, the remainder of your fantasies
above would not have graced our newsgroup either.
On Sun, 6 Jul 2025 09:07:59 -0500, AMuzi <[email protected]> wrote:them off and find the failures by using the same technique I explained using radio echos or matching waves. They originally could ONLY be repaired by bringing them to the surface. Now according to one of the pictures in your reference it appears that
On 7/5/2025 5:40 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Fri Jul 4 13:59:48 2025 AMuzi wrote:
Your comment, " ship lifts the cable starting from the
nearest port out of the water" is absolutely ridiculous. No
one in his right mind could believe that.
https://www.onesteppower.com/post/subsea-cable-repair
Andrew, how do you think that you can repair a cable 3,000 meters under water? How do you think that you can even discover where a break is? Electric cables going to or from offshore oil platforms or wind generator are repairable but you have to shut
ends of the cables which are only a couple of inches in diameter. I expect they have automation for that now but before they simply discarded the cable and replaced it.
DATA lines can be repaired robotically but this is fantastically difficult so they use redundancy rather than repair. If the cable is actually broken the repair is very difficult and involves putting this 2 or three foot diameter interface on the
The ship was very large in order to float the weight of the cable.
I have no idea how you think that past data cables consisting of copper wires were repaired but I personally saw one of the repair ships that would lift the entire cable out of the water with rollers on either end of the ship and set it back down.
Had you read the link I posted, you would not have written,
"ship lifts the cable starting from the nearest port out of
the water" which is ridiculous and absurd.
And had you read the link, the remainder of your fantasies
above would not have graced our newsgroup either.
To be uncharacteristically fair, most of the article is about under
water power cables and not data comm cables. Power cables are much
shorter than transoceanic cables. I think this the longest under
water power cable from UK to Denmark. <https://electrek.co/2023/09/04/worlds-longest-subsea-power-cable/> <https://reports.electricinsights.co.uk/q4-2023/worlds-longest-subsea-power-cable-connects-britain-to-denmark/>
at 765 km (475 miles).
The longest undersea data cable is 45,000 km (28,000 miles) long. <https://africa.businessinsider.com/local/markets/worlds-longest-subsea-cable-45000km-lands-in-lagos-nigeria/ss6x3pz>
<https://www.2africacable.net>
I believe (not sure) that this is one of the fiber optic cables (with
96 fibers):
"URC-1 Light Weight Submarine Cable" <https://www.nexans.no/en/products/Fiberoptic-Cables-and-Components/Submarine-Fiber-Cables/URC-1-Ligh10763.html>
<https://www.nexans.no/.rest/catalog/v1/family/pdf/10763/URC-1-Light-Weight-Submarine-Cable>
It's really a small diameter (19mm dia) and light weight (650 kg/km)
cable.
45,000 km * 650 kg/km = 29,250,000 kg (32,242 metric tons)
Somewhat less in salt water because the cable is slightly buoyant.
Anyone want to try lifting 32,000 metric tons of cable from the ocean
floor? Or, maybe try dragging 32,000 metric tons of cable across the
ocean floor to make it easier to splice? No, the cable does not
stretch and does not include extra cable in the form of service loops.
On 7/6/2025 12:13 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:shut them off and find the failures by using the same technique I explained using radio echos or matching waves. They originally could ONLY be repaired by bringing them to the surface. Now according to one of the pictures in your reference it appears
On Sun, 6 Jul 2025 09:07:59 -0500, AMuzi <[email protected]> wrote:
On 7/5/2025 5:40 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Fri Jul 4 13:59:48 2025 AMuzi wrote:
Your comment, " ship lifts the cable starting from the
nearest port out of the water" is absolutely ridiculous. No
one in his right mind could believe that.
https://www.onesteppower.com/post/subsea-cable-repair
Andrew, how do you think that you can repair a cable 3,000 meters under water? How do you think that you can even discover where a break is? Electric cables going to or from offshore oil platforms or wind generator are repairable but you have to
ends of the cables which are only a couple of inches in diameter. I expect they have automation for that now but before they simply discarded the cable and replaced it.
DATA lines can be repaired robotically but this is fantastically difficult so they use redundancy rather than repair. If the cable is actually broken the repair is very difficult and involves putting this 2 or three foot diameter interface on the
The ship was very large in order to float the weight of the cable.
I have no idea how you think that past data cables consisting of copper wires were repaired but I personally saw one of the repair ships that would lift the entire cable out of the water with rollers on either end of the ship and set it back down.
Had you read the link I posted, you would not have written,
"ship lifts the cable starting from the nearest port out of
the water" which is ridiculous and absurd.
And had you read the link, the remainder of your fantasies
above would not have graced our newsgroup either.
To be uncharacteristically fair, most of the article is about under
water power cables and not data comm cables. Power cables are much
shorter than transoceanic cables. I think this the longest under
water power cable from UK to Denmark.
<https://electrek.co/2023/09/04/worlds-longest-subsea-power-cable/>
<https://reports.electricinsights.co.uk/q4-2023/worlds-longest-subsea-power-cable-connects-britain-to-denmark/>
at 765 km (475 miles).
The longest undersea data cable is 45,000 km (28,000 miles) long.
<https://africa.businessinsider.com/local/markets/worlds-longest-subsea-cable-45000km-lands-in-lagos-nigeria/ss6x3pz>
<https://www.2africacable.net>
I believe (not sure) that this is one of the fiber optic cables (with
96 fibers):
"URC-1 Light Weight Submarine Cable"
<https://www.nexans.no/en/products/Fiberoptic-Cables-and-Components/Submarine-Fiber-Cables/URC-1-Ligh10763.html>
<https://www.nexans.no/.rest/catalog/v1/family/pdf/10763/URC-1-Light-Weight-Submarine-Cable>
It's really a small diameter (19mm dia) and light weight (650 kg/km)
cable.
45,000 km * 650 kg/km = 29,250,000 kg (32,242 metric tons)
Somewhat less in salt water because the cable is slightly buoyant.
Anyone want to try lifting 32,000 metric tons of cable from the ocean
floor? Or, maybe try dragging 32,000 metric tons of cable across the
ocean floor to make it easier to splice? No, the cable does not
stretch and does not include extra cable in the form of service loops.
Yes, link discussed power cables. And also data cables. And
fiber besides:
"Some of these cables span the ocean to connect continents,
and can sometimes be located farther below the surface of
the ocean than Mount Everest is tall, making repairs time
consuming. The first step in repairing an underwater cable
that can be thousands of miles long is figuring out where
the damage is located. The general location is found by
internet and phone outages, or in the case of electrical
cable, the power outage. Data cables are fiber optic, so a
light pulse is sent through the cable that would normally go
all the way to the other side. Broken fibers bounce the
light pulse back, and engineers can measure the time it
takes the pulse to return to find the specific location of
the break. "
Yes, length must be added to allow for the cable depth after
repairs:
" If needed, one end can then be hooked to a buoy and the
other end brought on board. Cable has to be added to make
the repair, since there is not enough slack to bring the
cable up and cut a piece out. After the cable is retrieved
and on board, in a repair room that looks like a laboratory,
engineers repair the cable. Data cables can take up to 16
hours to repair, after which they are lowered back down to
the sea bed in an omega or hairpin pattern to accommodate
the extra length."
There's a nice bibliography at the bottom of the page for
the interested reader.
On Fri, 04 Jul 2025 15:24:14 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Mon Jun 30 23:16:56 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/30/2025 11:21 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Now GPS takes you to the right address andI'd insert "usually" takes you to the right address. I've had GPS and
you're not even aware of the madness.
Google Maps get very confused on occasion, telling me I'd arrived when I >>> absolutely had not.
Tonight I drove home from a city about an hour away. My car's navigation >>> system was very upset that I was proceeding on a closed road. But the
road was perfectly fine.
Do you even know how to use Google Maps? Driving from San Leandro to Phoenix, Arizona, not only did it give me explcit directions but I could ask it where the nearest gas station was.
It also has bike routes that can navigate you over bike paths.
And you're saying that it gets confused? I think we all know where the confussion lies.
Try your GPS navigation app driving to my house. A fair number of the
local roads on the map do not exist. They were planned, but never
build or were abandoned long ago (logging trails). If you use the
automatic directions (shortest path), you will get lost (or drive off
the road).
On Sat, 05 Jul 2025 21:01:12 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
My use of higher mathmatics and English needed no college course and sticking in any extraneous skilll simply to the that college could make more money is preposterous.
I have never seen you do "higher mathematics" beyond trying and
failing to calculate the correct Trump vs Harris presidential
electoral college vote distribution. 226 votes for Harris and 312
votes for Trump do not make a 25%/75% distribution. Even your later corrections were wrong. Other than that fiasco, I haven't seen you do calculations of any type.
Note: Yes, I know my arithmetic has problems, but at least I offer corrections when I catch my errors and apologize when they are caught
by readers.
On Sat Jul 5 20:23:22 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:want to be the world's greatest expert on the election. The election fraud of the Democrats doesn't faze you in the least and you think that it is going to continue or at least have high hopes.
On Sat, 05 Jul 2025 21:01:12 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
My use of higher mathmatics and English needed no college course and sticking in any extraneous skilll simply to the that college could make more money is preposterous.
I have never seen you do "higher mathematics" beyond trying and
failing to calculate the correct Trump vs Harris presidential
electoral college vote distribution. 226 votes for Harris and 312
votes for Trump do not make a 25%/75% distribution. Even your later
corrections were wrong. Other than that fiasco, I haven't seen you do
calculations of any type.
Note: Yes, I know my arithmetic has problems, but at least I offer
corrections when I catch my errors and apologize when they are caught
by readers.
Liebermann, stop failing at everything you do. Trump won EVERY swing state as well as all of the normally red states. New York and California was the overwelming number of votes against Trump. You, as usual are so in love with yourself that you again
On Mon, 07 Jul 2025 15:57:06 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>want to be the world's greatest expert on the election. The election fraud of the Democrats doesn't faze you in the least and you think that it is going to continue or at least have high hopes.
wrote:
On Sat Jul 5 20:23:22 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 05 Jul 2025 21:01:12 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
My use of higher mathmatics and English needed no college course and sticking in any extraneous skilll simply to the that college could make more money is preposterous.
I have never seen you do "higher mathematics" beyond trying and
failing to calculate the correct Trump vs Harris presidential
electoral college vote distribution. 226 votes for Harris and 312
votes for Trump do not make a 25%/75% distribution. Even your later
corrections were wrong. Other than that fiasco, I haven't seen you do
calculations of any type.
Note: Yes, I know my arithmetic has problems, but at least I offer
corrections when I catch my errors and apologize when they are caught
by readers.
Liebermann, stop failing at everything you do. Trump won EVERY swing state as well as all of the normally red states. New York and California was the overwelming number of votes against Trump. You, as usual are so in love with yourself that you again
Nice deflection into the political wilderness. We were discussing
your inability to do basic arithmetic. I'll try again, this time
simplifying the arithmetic problem so that you can understand it. No
"higher mathmatics" or "skilll" required. However, a spelling checker
and online calculator: <https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/math/basic.php>
and online spelling/grammar checkers <https://www.reverso.net/spell-checker/english-spelling-grammar/>
might be useful:
Harris had 226 electoral votes. Trump had 312 electoral votes.
What percentage of the total electoral votes did each candidate have?
Show your work.
Tom. The instrument is called a "sextant", not a "sexton. These are sextants:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=sextant&udm=2>
and this is a sexton:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexton_(office)>
"A sexton is an officer of a church, congregation, or synagogue
charged with the maintenance of its buildings and/or an associated
cemetery."
Calculating latitude from a noon sight is well known. However, I
didn't know that you could obtain the longitude from sunrise sighting.
How is that done?
Incidentally, taking a sighting near or at the horizon is almost
impossible. Atmospheric diffraction changes the effective size of the
sun. It also blurs the edge of the sun producing a fuzzy reading.
There's no way to view the base (lowest point) of the sun disk at the horizon, which is likely to be obscured by land, distant clouds, cold
front or most likely, fog. I also couldn't find any altitude
correction tables for apparent altitudes less than about 9 degrees.
Unless I missed something, I don't think it can be done.
On 7/4/2025 12:05 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Fri, 04 Jul 2025 15:24:14 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Mon Jun 30 23:16:56 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/30/2025 11:21 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Now GPS takes you to the right address andI'd insert "usually" takes you to the right address. I've had GPS and
you're not even aware of the madness.
Google Maps get very confused on occasion, telling me I'd arrived when I >>>> absolutely had not.
Tonight I drove home from a city about an hour away. My car's navigation >>>> system was very upset that I was proceeding on a closed road. But the >>>> road was perfectly fine.
Do you even know how to use Google Maps? Driving from San Leandro to
Phoenix, Arizona, not only did it give me explcit directions but I
could ask it where the nearest gas station was.
It also has bike routes that can navigate you over bike paths.
And you're saying that it gets confused? I think we all know where the confussion lies.
Yes, tommy, we most certainly do....
Try your GPS navigation app driving to my house. A fair number of the
local roads on the map do not exist. They were planned, but never
build or were abandoned long ago (logging trails). If you use the
automatic directions (shortest path), you will get lost (or drive off
the road).
Which is essentially me saying this is a Tom not a Garmin problem.
Not to mention the video doesn't address "Virtually ALL of the roads in northern Italy are paved over Roman roads"
On 7/3/2025 8:42 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
cyclintom <[email protected]> writes:
On Mon Jun 30 10:03:22 2025 Zen Cycle wrote:
On 6/27/2025 3:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2025 8:44 AM, AMuzi wrote:
For Wisconsin, the Milwaukee Maps Service quadrant maps show every >>>>> county road with road names clearly, which is difficult for online maps.
https://shop.milwaukeemap.com/regional-3
DeLorme is a publisher that prints large scale "Atlas and Gazetter" maps >>>> for most or all U.S. states: https://randpublishing.com/delorme/
The Ohio version is at 1:150,000 scale (about 2.4 miles per inch) and >>>> detailed enough to show every country road and even many street names in >>>> tiny villages. I've used it extensively planning several bike tours. >>>>
Most notable was a tour we did from the Ohio River to Lake Erie,
following the roads as close as possible to the route of Ohio's first >>>> canal, the Ohio & Erie. In the southern half of the state the canal is >>>> given very little recognition, so it was hard to find the proper roads. >>>> I used DeLorme to find things like "Canal Street" or "Lock Road" in
small towns to get clues.
That was a historically interesting tour. It was fun riding along some >>>> quiet country road, then saying "Look! There's an old canal lock over >>>> there in the woods!"
Same story in my area. There were canals dug for long distance transport >>> just before the railroad boom that had roads along side for draft
animals to tow the barges upstream. Many of the roads still exist today >>> with remnants of the canals still visible (Modern maps don't show these >>> features), in some cases still with water flowing.
I spent many many hours on my mtn bike in the 1980s exploring the old
Middlesex Canal portion which linked the Concord river in Billerica to >>> the Merrimac river in Lowell (the whole canal ran 22 milesfrom
Charlestown(boston) to lowell) - most of it overgrown with sections
through abandoned industrial sites. Parts of the tow road became the
Middlesex Turnpike in Billerica and Burlington - a high tech hot-spot to >>> this day.
The City of Nashua, NH was a significant manufacturing center in the
19th and early 20th century with a prominent canal and lock system to
get goods around a waterfall as well as provide hydro power for the
mills. Today it's a park with walking/biking trails along both sides of >>> the canal.
https://www.nashuanh.gov/DocumentCenter/View/2328/Mine-Falls-Park-Trail-Map-PDF?bidId=
Quite a bit of engineering went into canals. It had to have just
enough current to fill the locks and not enough to make it difficult
for draft animals to pull the barges upstream.
The Middlesex canal actually crossed the Concord river. You can still
find the point where the floating bit of the canal was anchored.
The Erie canal flows over a road (it does drip a bit). That's quite a picturesque sight.
Can't beat the Scots for innovation:
https://lostinlandmarks.com/the-unexpected-story-behind-scotlands-giant-staircase-of-water/
https://www.easternengineeringgroup.com/the-marvel-of-modern-engineering-the-falkirk-wheel/
One minute video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbW-tyA_5OI
On 6/30/2025 9:06 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
On 6/29/2025 5:28 PM, AMuzi wrote:
"Virtually ALL of the roads in northern Italy are paved over
Roman roads." is not even remotely believable. It's just
not true.
https://duckduckgo.com/?
q=Why+are+Belgian+cobblestone+roads+built+like+that&atb=v366-1&t=chromentp&ia=videos&iax=videos&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DkUIsFv_JNYs
The video doesn't address "Virtually ALL of the roads in northern ItalyI suspected as much. I gave up watching after a couple minutes.
are paved over Roman roads"
Point of order? If someone here links a video or a long article to prove
or disprove a point they're making, could people consider giving a
concise quote and maybe a video time stamp or article page number to
help others find the relevant information within their source?
In an ideal world, if even Tom did this, this practice might even
dissuade him from posting as "proof" sources that say the opposite of
what he claims.
On Sat Jul 5 19:50:33 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Tom. The instrument is called a "sextant", not a "sexton. These are
sextants:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=sextant&udm=2>
and this is a sexton:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexton_(office)>
"A sexton is an officer of a church, congregation, or synagogue
charged with the maintenance of its buildings and/or an associated
cemetery."
Calculating latitude from a noon sight is well known. However, I
didn't know that you could obtain the longitude from sunrise sighting.
How is that done?
Incidentally, taking a sighting near or at the horizon is almost
impossible. Atmospheric diffraction changes the effective size of the
sun. It also blurs the edge of the sun producing a fuzzy reading.
There's no way to view the base (lowest point) of the sun disk at the
horizon, which is likely to be obscured by land, distant clouds, cold
front or most likely, fog. I also couldn't find any altitude
correction tables for apparent altitudes less than about 9 degrees.
Unless I missed something, I don't think it can be done.
Obviously you've never seen a sextant or know how to use one and how it works.
But you think that knowing how to spell it makes you an expert in it's use.
No doubt that while you're using it ikn your imagination you're wearing a large round red nose.
You did the same thing when I misspelled Kary Mullis's nane proved conclusively that I never did what I said I did. Do your eyes every become uncrossed?
Give us more of your expert opinions on how a sextant works.
On Mon Jul 7 09:54:27 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:want to be the world's greatest expert on the election. The election fraud of the Democrats doesn't faze you in the least and you think that it is going to continue or at least have high hopes.
On Mon, 07 Jul 2025 15:57:06 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Sat Jul 5 20:23:22 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 05 Jul 2025 21:01:12 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
My use of higher mathmatics and English needed no college course and sticking in any extraneous skilll simply to the that college could make more money is preposterous.
I have never seen you do "higher mathematics" beyond trying and
failing to calculate the correct Trump vs Harris presidential
electoral college vote distribution. 226 votes for Harris and 312
votes for Trump do not make a 25%/75% distribution. Even your later
corrections were wrong. Other than that fiasco, I haven't seen you do
calculations of any type.
Note: Yes, I know my arithmetic has problems, but at least I offer
corrections when I catch my errors and apologize when they are caught
by readers.
Liebermann, stop failing at everything you do. Trump won EVERY swing state as well as all of the normally red states. New York and California was the overwelming number of votes against Trump. You, as usual are so in love with yourself that you again
electoral votes would be missing. But you like all freaks of nature want to pretend that it ain't so. Because of the Democrats election fraud. Tryump had to have an overwhelming majority to cover the faud from people like you.
Nice deflection into the political wilderness. We were discussing
your inability to do basic arithmetic. I'll try again, this time
simplifying the arithmetic problem so that you can understand it. No
"higher mathmatics" or "skilll" required. However, a spelling checker
and online calculator:
<https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/math/basic.php>
and online spelling/grammar checkers
<https://www.reverso.net/spell-checker/english-spelling-grammar/>
might be useful:
Harris had 226 electoral votes. Trump had 312 electoral votes.
What percentage of the total electoral votes did each candidate have?
Show your work.
Do you even understand the electoral college system? Trump won by an ove4rwhelming majority. If you erased the election fraud in california and New York and made it illegal for the Slime Stream media to publish opinions as fact 40% at least of Kamala's
I'm more interested in the intensely difficult calculus problem that Tom
used to lecture and upstage several PhDs. Tom?
On Mon, 07 Jul 2025 18:25:07 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Sat Jul 5 19:50:33 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Tom. The instrument is called a "sextant", not a "sexton. These are
sextants:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=sextant&udm=2>
and this is a sexton:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexton_(office)>
"A sexton is an officer of a church, congregation, or synagogue
charged with the maintenance of its buildings and/or an associated
cemetery."
Calculating latitude from a noon sight is well known. However, I
didn't know that you could obtain the longitude from sunrise sighting.
How is that done?
Incidentally, taking a sighting near or at the horizon is almost
impossible. Atmospheric diffraction changes the effective size of the
sun. It also blurs the edge of the sun producing a fuzzy reading.
There's no way to view the base (lowest point) of the sun disk at the
horizon, which is likely to be obscured by land, distant clouds, cold
front or most likely, fog. I also couldn't find any altitude
correction tables for apparent altitudes less than about 9 degrees.
Unless I missed something, I don't think it can be done.
Obviously you've never seen a sextant or know how to use one and how it works.
The sextant, WWV receiver, books and equipment in the photo are mine.
I do know how to use a sextant and perform a noon sighting. However,
I'm not very good at celestial navigation: <https://photos.app.goo.gl/zo5oZAU7FmTzsRU26>
But you think that knowing how to spell it makes you an expert in it's use.
Now you can read my mind and know what I think. Amazing.
Please note that I do not claim to be an expert in its uses.
Tom, I think this would be a good time to remind you that it doesn't
matter if I'm a navigation expert or a total beginner. I could be
either and you would still be a clueless braggart and miserable liar.
Out of idle curiosity, do you own a sextant? It doesn't need to be
anything fancy. Todays plastic sextants, such as the Mark 25, are
quite good:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=plastic%20sextant&udm=2>
"Should You Get a Plastic or Metal Sextant?" (4:13) <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2xAqww_X_U>
No doubt that while you're using it ikn your imagination you're wearing
a large round red nose.
Is that an insult? What's an "ikn".
You did the same thing when I misspelled Kary Mullis's nane proved
conclusively that I never did what I said I did. Do your eyes every become uncrossed?
Now, I understant. You were looking for a way to deflect the
discussion and do some name dropping.
Give us more of your expert opinions on how a sextant works.
I'm not an expert, but I can provide an opinion. A sextant works very
well, but I prefer GPS/GNSS.
Jeff Liebermann <[email protected]> wrote:
On Mon, 07 Jul 2025 18:25:07 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Sat Jul 5 19:50:33 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Tom. The instrument is called a "sextant", not a "sexton. These are
sextants:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=sextant&udm=2>
and this is a sexton:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexton_(office)>
"A sexton is an officer of a church, congregation, or synagogue
charged with the maintenance of its buildings and/or an associated
cemetery."
Calculating latitude from a noon sight is well known. However, I
didn't know that you could obtain the longitude from sunrise sighting. >>>> How is that done?
Incidentally, taking a sighting near or at the horizon is almost
impossible. Atmospheric diffraction changes the effective size of the >>>> sun. It also blurs the edge of the sun producing a fuzzy reading.
There's no way to view the base (lowest point) of the sun disk at the
horizon, which is likely to be obscured by land, distant clouds, cold
front or most likely, fog. I also couldn't find any altitude
correction tables for apparent altitudes less than about 9 degrees.
Unless I missed something, I don't think it can be done.
Obviously you've never seen a sextant or know how to use one and how it works.
The sextant, WWV receiver, books and equipment in the photo are mine.
I do know how to use a sextant and perform a noon sighting. However,
I'm not very good at celestial navigation:
<https://photos.app.goo.gl/zo5oZAU7FmTzsRU26>
But you think that knowing how to spell it makes you an expert in it's use. >>Now you can read my mind and know what I think. Amazing.
Please note that I do not claim to be an expert in its uses.
Tom, I think this would be a good time to remind you that it doesn't
matter if I'm a navigation expert or a total beginner. I could be
either and you would still be a clueless braggart and miserable liar.
lol this reminds me of the Winston Churchill quote (which is probably not true as he has become a character, and are variations of same story.
“Winston, you are drunk, and what’s more you are disgustingly drunk.”
“my dear, you are ugly, and what’s more, you are disgustingly ugly. But tomorrow
I shall be sober and you will still be disgustingly ugly.”
I would have far more faith that you (Jeff) could navigate and use
equipment than, Tom who has demonstrated an inability to use kit, see the Garmin woes….
Roger Merriman
Out of idle curiosity, do you own a sextant? It doesn't need to be
anything fancy. Todays plastic sextants, such as the Mark 25, are
quite good:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=plastic%20sextant&udm=2>
"Should You Get a Plastic or Metal Sextant?" (4:13)
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2xAqww_X_U>
No doubt that while you're using it ikn your imagination you're wearing
a large round red nose.
Is that an insult? What's an "ikn".
You did the same thing when I misspelled Kary Mullis's nane proved
conclusively that I never did what I said I did. Do your eyes every become uncrossed?
Now, I understant. You were looking for a way to deflect the
discussion and do some name dropping.
Give us more of your expert opinions on how a sextant works.
I'm not an expert, but I can provide an opinion. A sextant works very
well, but I prefer GPS/GNSS.
On Sun, 6 Jul 2025 09:07:59 -0500, AMuzi <[email protected]> wrote:shut them off and find the failures by using the same technique I explained using radio echos or matching waves. They originally could ONLY be repaired by bringing them to the surface. Now according to one of the pictures in your reference it appears
On 7/5/2025 5:40 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Fri Jul 4 13:59:48 2025 AMuzi wrote:
Your comment, " ship lifts the cable starting from the
nearest port out of the water" is absolutely ridiculous. No
one in his right mind could believe that.
https://www.onesteppower.com/post/subsea-cable-repair
Andrew, how do you think that you can repair a cable 3,000 meters under water? How do you think that you can even discover where a break is? Electric cables going to or from offshore oil platforms or wind generator are repairable but you have to
ends of the cables which are only a couple of inches in diameter. I expect they have automation for that now but before they simply discarded the cable and replaced it.
DATA lines can be repaired robotically but this is fantastically difficult so they use redundancy rather than repair. If the cable is actually broken the repair is very difficult and involves putting this 2 or three foot diameter interface on the
The ship was very large in order to float the weight of the cable.
I have no idea how you think that past data cables consisting of copper wires were repaired but I personally saw one of the repair ships that would lift the entire cable out of the water with rollers on either end of the ship and set it back down.
Had you read the link I posted, you would not have written,
"ship lifts the cable starting from the nearest port out of
the water" which is ridiculous and absurd.
And had you read the link, the remainder of your fantasies
above would not have graced our newsgroup either.
To be uncharacteristically fair, most of the article is about under
water power cables and not data comm cables. Power cables are much
shorter than transoceanic cables. I think this the longest under
water power cable from UK to Denmark. <https://electrek.co/2023/09/04/worlds-longest-subsea-power-cable/> <https://reports.electricinsights.co.uk/q4-2023/worlds-longest-subsea-power-cable-connects-britain-to-denmark/>
at 765 km (475 miles).
The longest undersea data cable is 45,000 km (28,000 miles) long. <https://africa.businessinsider.com/local/markets/worlds-longest-subsea-cable-45000km-lands-in-lagos-nigeria/ss6x3pz>
<https://www.2africacable.net>
I believe (not sure) that this is one of the fiber optic cables (with
96 fibers):
"URC-1 Light Weight Submarine Cable" <https://www.nexans.no/en/products/Fiberoptic-Cables-and-Components/Submarine-Fiber-Cables/URC-1-Ligh10763.html>
<https://www.nexans.no/.rest/catalog/v1/family/pdf/10763/URC-1-Light-Weight-Submarine-Cable>
It's really a small diameter (19mm dia) and light weight (650 kg/km)
cable.
45,000 km * 650 kg/km = 29,250,000 kg (32,242 metric tons)
Somewhat less in salt water because the cable is slightly buoyant.
Anyone want to try lifting 32,000 metric tons of cable from the ocean
floor? Or, maybe try dragging 32,000 metric tons of cable across the
ocean floor to make it easier to splice? No, the cable does not
stretch and does not include extra cable in the form of service loops.
On Sat, 05 Jul 2025 21:41:07 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
My JOB for 4 years was repairing navigational computers in the Air Force
You claim to have been in the Air Force from May 1961 to some month in
1965. By navigation computers, I presume you mean something that flys
in a USAF airplane. Transistors arrived in the late 1950's. The microprocessor was introduced in the early 1970's. In your time
frame, the technology was either analog, mechanical or tubes.
So, which type of aviation navigation computers were you repairing on
Guam? Lorenz blind landing, mechanical (cams and gears), analog,
Consolan, Omega, Loran A, etc.
"History of computing hardware (1960s - present)" <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_computing_hardware_(1960s%E2%80%93present)>
On Sat, 05 Jul 2025 15:32:25 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Sat, 05 Jul 2025 21:41:07 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
My JOB for 4 years was repairing navigational computers in the Air Force
You claim to have been in the Air Force from May 1961 to some month in >1965. By navigation computers, I presume you mean something that flys
in a USAF airplane. Transistors arrived in the late 1950's. The >microprocessor was introduced in the early 1970's. In your time
frame, the technology was either analog, mechanical or tubes.
So, which type of aviation navigation computers were you repairing on
Guam? Lorenz blind landing, mechanical (cams and gears), analog,
Consolan, Omega, Loran A, etc.
"History of computing hardware (1960s - present)" ><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_computing_hardware_(1960s%E2%80%93present)>
IN ADDITION HE HAS THRILLED US WITH HIS TALES OF BEING A HELPER TO A
BLOKE WITH A BIT HIGHER RANK AND CARRING HS TOOL BAG ON THE FLIGHT
LINE - PARKING RAMP.
On Sat, 05 Jul 2025 15:32:25 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Sat, 05 Jul 2025 21:41:07 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
My JOB for 4 years was repairing navigational computers in the Air Force
You claim to have been in the Air Force from May 1961 to some month in >1965.
Oops. I forgot to include the source URL:
11/02/2021 <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/MyPJ4MA3e60/m/-TZfbH7xAQAJ> "I was born in October of 1944. I joined at 17.5 Those with the
ability to add would assume that I joined the Air Force in May of
1961. 4 years of active duty and two years inactive liable to be
recalled would to most people mean that I got off of active duty in
1965 and finished my service of the Air Force in 1967."
On Sat, 05 Jul 2025 21:17:14 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Fri Jul 4 18:27:43 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
available and you're talking about NAVIGATION? You know nothing about this subject and are avoiding the subjects that are of paramont importance to your life. Why are you doing that?Liebermann, where did you ever do any sailing other than riding over to this country in a ship as a baby?
You must be desperate for attention. Unfortunately, I'm loafing today
so you get 20 minutes of my time. Anything over that will be charged
at my premium hourly consulting rate.
At various times, I owned a Hobie 14 and was port owner of a Cal 25.
I'm not a very good sailor and ended up spending most of my time doing
damage control and cleaning up after the other shareholders. If
anyone wants photographic proof, I can probably find some prints in my
mess.
I providsed a picture of my degree in Commercial Naviation and you're telling me that you know more about it than I do?
This is what you provided as proof that you had a degree or attended a college. I don't recall which: <https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=996962251448524&set=pb.100034042758783.-2207520000&type=3>
There is no such thing as "Commercial Navigation". Try again.
I say that the comments of Catrike and John Slocomb are dead on and you're telling us that they aren't and you know better. You do this about everything you know nothing about.
You claim that Catrike and John B. Slocumb are correct about some
unspecified claim, and I'm expected to argue with you to prove
something. That sounds like nonsense. Please take some classes in
remedial English grammar (and spelling).
Does it not bother you that they were giving taxpayer money for MediCal to all of the illegals so that YOUR treatments and payments were coming last? ALL of the ER rooms are filled to capacity and your health was endangered. Specialists were not
Hey, that's great. A perfectly timed topic switch to deflect theuninformed about. Wake up and smell the roses.
discussion to something you claim to understand and could more easily manufacture amazing facts.
If you were complaining about the heart damage that most mRNA recipients recieved you would have half of the world agreeing with you. Why does that not seem to matter to you? You woulkd much rather talk all day about things that you're entirely
Roses don't grow well in the deep dark forest. Roses want plenty of
sun. Instead, I have 2 Camellia trees (pink and white). The
fragrance is nice. They like the shade, tolerate acidic soil and don't
have thorns. They don't smell as nice as roses, but you can buy some
fake rose scent if you need help waking up: <https://www.google.com/search?q=rose%20scent&udm=2>
On Mon, 07 Jul 2025 18:25:07 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Sat Jul 5 19:50:33 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Tom. The instrument is called a "sextant", not a "sexton. These are
sextants:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=sextant&udm=2>
and this is a sexton:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexton_(office)>
"A sexton is an officer of a church, congregation, or synagogue
charged with the maintenance of its buildings and/or an associated
cemetery."
Calculating latitude from a noon sight is well known. However, I
didn't know that you could obtain the longitude from sunrise sighting.
How is that done?
Incidentally, taking a sighting near or at the horizon is almost
impossible. Atmospheric diffraction changes the effective size of the
sun. It also blurs the edge of the sun producing a fuzzy reading.
There's no way to view the base (lowest point) of the sun disk at the
horizon, which is likely to be obscured by land, distant clouds, cold
front or most likely, fog. I also couldn't find any altitude
correction tables for apparent altitudes less than about 9 degrees.
Unless I missed something, I don't think it can be done.
Obviously you've never seen a sextant or know how to use one and how it works.
The sextant, WWV receiver, books and equipment in the photo are mine.
I do know how to use a sextant and perform a noon sighting. However,
I'm not very good at celestial navigation: <https://photos.app.goo.gl/zo5oZAU7FmTzsRU26>
But you think that knowing how to spell it makes you an expert in it's use.
Now you can read my mind and know what I think. Amazing.
Please note that I do not claim to be an expert in its uses.
Tom, I think this would be a good time to remind you that it doesn't
matter if I'm a navigation expert or a total beginner. I could be
either and you would still be a clueless braggart and miserable liar.
Out of idle curiosity, do you own a sextant? It doesn't need to be
anything fancy. Todays plastic sextants, such as the Mark 25, are
quite good:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=plastic%20sextant&udm=2>
"Should You Get a Plastic or Metal Sextant?" (4:13) <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2xAqww_X_U>
No doubt that while you're using it ikn your imagination you're wearing a large round red nose.
Is that an insult? What's an "ikn".
You did the same thing when I misspelled Kary Mullis's nane proved conclusively that I never did what I said I did. Do your eyes every become uncrossed?
Now, I understant. You were looking for a way to deflect the
discussion and do some name dropping.
Give us more of your expert opinions on how a sextant works.
I'm not an expert, but I can provide an opinion. A sextant works very
well, but I prefer GPS/GNSS.
On Sun Jul 6 10:13:13 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:shut them off and find the failures by using the same technique I explained using radio echos or matching waves. They originally could ONLY be repaired by bringing them to the surface. Now according to one of the pictures in your reference it appears
On Sun, 6 Jul 2025 09:07:59 -0500, AMuzi <[email protected]> wrote:
On 7/5/2025 5:40 PM, cyclintom wrote:
On Fri Jul 4 13:59:48 2025 AMuzi wrote:
Your comment, " ship lifts the cable starting from the
nearest port out of the water" is absolutely ridiculous. No
one in his right mind could believe that.
https://www.onesteppower.com/post/subsea-cable-repair
Andrew, how do you think that you can repair a cable 3,000 meters under water? How do you think that you can even discover where a break is? Electric cables going to or from offshore oil platforms or wind generator are repairable but you have to
ends of the cables which are only a couple of inches in diameter. I expect they have automation for that now but before they simply discarded the cable and replaced it.
DATA lines can be repaired robotically but this is fantastically difficult so they use redundancy rather than repair. If the cable is actually broken the repair is very difficult and involves putting this 2 or three foot diameter interface on the
The ship was very large in order to float the weight of the cable.
I have no idea how you think that past data cables consisting of copper wires were repaired but I personally saw one of the repair ships that would lift the entire cable out of the water with rollers on either end of the ship and set it back down.
Had you read the link I posted, you would not have written,
"ship lifts the cable starting from the nearest port out of
the water" which is ridiculous and absurd.
And had you read the link, the remainder of your fantasies
above would not have graced our newsgroup either.
To be uncharacteristically fair, most of the article is about under
water power cables and not data comm cables. Power cables are much
shorter than transoceanic cables. I think this the longest under
water power cable from UK to Denmark.
<https://electrek.co/2023/09/04/worlds-longest-subsea-power-cable/>
<https://reports.electricinsights.co.uk/q4-2023/worlds-longest-subsea-power-cable-connects-britain-to-denmark/>
at 765 km (475 miles).
The longest undersea data cable is 45,000 km (28,000 miles) long.
<https://africa.businessinsider.com/local/markets/worlds-longest-subsea-cable-45000km-lands-in-lagos-nigeria/ss6x3pz>
<https://www.2africacable.net>
I believe (not sure) that this is one of the fiber optic cables (with
96 fibers):
"URC-1 Light Weight Submarine Cable"
<https://www.nexans.no/en/products/Fiberoptic-Cables-and-Components/Submarine-Fiber-Cables/URC-1-Ligh10763.html>
<https://www.nexans.no/.rest/catalog/v1/family/pdf/10763/URC-1-Light-Weight-Submarine-Cable>
It's really a small diameter (19mm dia) and light weight (650 kg/km)
cable.
45,000 km * 650 kg/km = 29,250,000 kg (32,242 metric tons)
Somewhat less in salt water because the cable is slightly buoyant.
Anyone want to try lifting 32,000 metric tons of cable from the ocean
floor? Or, maybe try dragging 32,000 metric tons of cable across the
ocean floor to make it easier to splice? No, the cable does not
stretch and does not include extra cable in the form of service loops.
And to be uncharateristically fair to you, the initial Transatlantic undersea cable was this huge thing made out of insulated copper which was required to provide high frequennncy transmission without too much resistance losses.
On Sat Jul 5 15:06:53 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:available and you're talking about NAVIGATION? You know nothing about this subject and are avoiding the subjects that are of paramont importance to your life. Why are you doing that?
On Sat, 05 Jul 2025 21:17:14 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Fri Jul 4 18:27:43 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Liebermann, where did you ever do any sailing other than riding over to this country in a ship as a baby?
You must be desperate for attention. Unfortunately, I'm loafing today
so you get 20 minutes of my time. Anything over that will be charged
at my premium hourly consulting rate.
At various times, I owned a Hobie 14 and was port owner of a Cal 25.
I'm not a very good sailor and ended up spending most of my time doing
damage control and cleaning up after the other shareholders. If
anyone wants photographic proof, I can probably find some prints in my
mess.
I providsed a picture of my degree in Commercial Naviation and you're telling me that you know more about it than I do?
This is what you provided as proof that you had a degree or attended a
college. I don't recall which:
<https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=996962251448524&set=pb.100034042758783.-2207520000&type=3>
There is no such thing as "Commercial Navigation". Try again.
I say that the comments of Catrike and John Slocomb are dead on and you're telling us that they aren't and you know better. You do this about everything you know nothing about.
You claim that Catrike and John B. Slocumb are correct about some
unspecified claim, and I'm expected to argue with you to prove
something. That sounds like nonsense. Please take some classes in
remedial English grammar (and spelling).
Does it not bother you that they were giving taxpayer money for MediCal to all of the illegals so that YOUR treatments and payments were coming last? ALL of the ER rooms are filled to capacity and your health was endangered. Specialists were not
uninformed about. Wake up and smell the roses.
Hey, that's great. A perfectly timed topic switch to deflect the
discussion to something you claim to understand and could more easily
manufacture amazing facts.
If you were complaining about the heart damage that most mRNA recipients recieved you would have half of the world agreeing with you. Why does that not seem to matter to you? You woulkd much rather talk all day about things that you're entirely
Roses don't grow well in the deep dark forest. Roses want plenty of
sun. Instead, I have 2 Camellia trees (pink and white). The
fragrance is nice. They like the shade, tolerate acidic soil and don't
have thorns. They don't smell as nice as roses, but you can buy some
fake rose scent if you need help waking up:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=rose%20scent&udm=2>
Let me get this straight - sailing a Hoby 14 or a Cal 25 makes you even know the first thing about navigation, let alone be the world's foremost expert on it? Yes, PLEASE provide us a picture of your timeshare Cal 25 so that everyone can see what you're talking about.
Now you can read my mind and know what I think. Amazing.
Please note that I do not claim to be an expert in its uses.
Tom, I think this would be a good time to remind you that it doesn't
matter if I'm a navigation expert or a total beginner. I could be
either and you would still be a clueless braggart and miserable liar.
Out of idle curiosity, do you own a sextant? It doesn't need to be
anything fancy. Todays plastic sextants, such as the Mark 25, are
quite good:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=plastic%20sextant&udm=2>
"Should You Get a Plastic or Metal Sextant?" (4:13) <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2xAqww_X_U>
No doubt that while you're using it ikn your imagination you're wearing a large round red nose.
Is that an insult? What's an "ikn".
You did the same thing when I misspelled Kary Mullis's nane proved conclusively that I never did what I said I did. Do your eyes every become uncrossed?
Now, I understant. You were looking for a way to deflect the
discussion and do some name dropping.
Give us more of your expert opinions on how a sextant works.
I'm not an expert, but I can provide an opinion. A sextant works very
well, but I prefer GPS/GNSS.
On Sun, 03 Aug 2025 19:39:21 GMT, cyclintom <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Mon Jul 7 18:11:28 2025 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jul 2025 20:07:44 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]> wrote:
I'm more interested in the intensely difficult calculus problem that Tom >>>> used to lecture and upstage several PhDs. Tom?
This might help.
07/05/2025
<https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=129768&group=rec.bicycles.tech#129768>
"I solved a problem in calculus that TWO PhD, physicists got wrong"
06/11/2025
<https://www.novabbs.com/rocksolid/article-flat.php?id=127572&group=rec.bicycles.tech#127572>
"On that poison gas detector when I couldn't get the program to work I
bought a book on Calculus and taught myself enough to discover the
error that the PhD physicists had made and correct the program in the
LAST hour of the deadline. I had already taught myself higher
mathematics, algebra and triganometry since they wouldn't allow me
those high school courses because I wasn't in college prep. I learned
programming in literally minutes simply by reading the language
manuals as I was writing ptograms."
There's more, but NovaBBS has been running very slowly for about the
last week. No clue if it's a DOS attack, server failure, or
congestion. The home page typically shows about 1,100 users when it
dies. If I wait about 10 mins, the page eventually appears. However,
the next page hangs.
Note the "calculus" mention in this recommendation on Tom's LinkedIn
online resume:
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-kunich-22012/details/recommendations/?detailScreenTabIndex=0>
I'm wondering how one might provide code for doing differential and
integral calculus and waveform analysis in firmware. I don't think it
can be done.
Also, four months after the recommendation was posted to LinkedIn, Tom
was having DUI problems:
<https://www.localcrimenews.com/welcome/detail/44604354/thomas-h-kunich-arrest.htm>
Liebermann, since you know everything in the world, why couldn't you get a job in the hottest electronics market in the entire world?
I've explained that to you at least 3 times. The short version is
that I've been either employed, self-employed or consulting from when
I graduated college in June 1971 until I retired in Dec 2020. <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-liebermann-151823/details/experience/> There were some jobs and projects which I would prefer to forget, but overall, I have never had much difficulty finding work.
You seem to always have something to criticize me about.
I'm not criticizing you. I'm pointing out your mistakes. I've tried
to critique your actions and methods in the distant past, but that was
an obvious failure when I discovered that you were immune to accepting suggestions and advice.
While you have no answers to important questions.
I'm honored that you would consider my almost continuous employment to
be important to you.
Why don't you and Flunky convince yourselves that I really don't have any money?
- Because I've already convinced myself that you are not who youriding and old rusty steel bike withoiut decent component or even handlebar tape one mile, Why you even told everyone the software level on my Garmin because you're can read my Garmin without EVER seeing it.
pretend to be.
- Because the amounts involved varied radically over some fairly short periods.
- Because you've shown no evidence of being experienced in financial
matters.
- Because the jobs you've mention, but are missing from your resume,
are all fabrications.
- Because you exhibit spending patterns that closely resemble those of someone lacking adequate funding.
- Because no sane person would hire you.
- Because you consistently lie about many other. Therefore, by
association and implication, you are also lying about having money.
- Because very little about which you brag can be easily verified.
That I did cash in one strock option and give the resulting million dollars to my mother for her cancer treatments? After all, like some sort of sticky creature you had no problem looking up how much money my mother paid for this house I inherited.
You left out the part about the divorce:
01/20/2023 <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/85qODEJbdFE/m/uHojwq_tAQAJ> "If I had not needed to cash in my stock option to gain cancer
treatments for my mother and then getting a divorce, I would easily
have been a multimillionaire. Instead I am only worth about a million
and a half due to Biden's latest market recession."
You had no problemn telling everyone that I was lying about there being a reservoir behind a dam. You had no problems describing the road conditions in a place you have never been. You had no problem showing to the group that you were a bicyclist by
Whatever. I don't care.
Again, I will ask you, WHY couldn't you get a job in the hottest engineering marketplace in the world?
Why is my job history so important to you? Is that because your real
job history is totally horrible and you are jealous of mine (which
admittedly is rather mundane)?
My investment report should show up tomorrow or the next day. Want me to tell you about it?
No. I don't care because it will likely be a lie. You couldn't even
post a photo copy of your DD214 without also twisting your "specialty
number and title" into something to make you appear to be more
important than what you actually were in Apr 1967.
| Sysop: | Keyop |
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