• Whining Cyclists / It is Grim for Cyclists in Grimsby

    From Brian@21:1/5 to All on Fri May 10 04:57:10 2024
    As the comments show, cyclists don’t like following the rules:

    https://road.cc/content/news/two-cyclists-ordered-pay-ps500-cycling-town-centre-308263


    Some of the comments are pure gems.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Spike@21:1/5 to KBrian on Fri May 10 08:25:06 2024
    KBrian <[email protected]> wrote:

    As the comments show, cyclists don’t like following the rules:

    https://road.cc/content/news/two-cyclists-ordered-pay-ps500-cycling-town-centre-308263

    Some of the comments are pure gems.

    Not only the comments, but the article itself. From the first two
    paragraphs, Road.cc falls over itself yet again in its faux indignation against Grimsby’s Public Space Protection Order:

    “….which has previously seen the council accused of targeting the “old and
    slow”…”

    “…two cyclists, 31-year-old Joshua Purton and 46-year-old Lee Tear, handed Fixed Penalty Notices…”.

    The ‘old and slow’ jibe is repeated twice more in the article.

    And how many times have we seen on here the ecstatic reporting of drivers
    who have appealed an FPN getting fined even more? Cyclists know what’s good for everyone else but not for them:

    “Purton, however, failed to pay the FPN, leading to his prosecution, while Tear appealed the decision. The 46-year-old’s appeal was not upheld and he was reminded to pay the fine, which remained unpaid. Neither man attended court, with both ordered to pay £534.04 in total, consisting of a £220
    fine, £88 victim services surcharge, and £226.04 in costs.”

    The comments are interesting, as some support the measure, but can you
    imagine the cycling world’s fulmination had a driver put this forward?

    “…It's also often safer to go through a junction than wait at the red and then have to tangle with other traffic when the lights go green and
    possibly be left-hooked etc.”

    🚦🚴👨‍⚖️🙄

    --
    Spike

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Brian@21:1/5 to Spike on Fri May 10 13:14:39 2024
    Spike <[email protected]> wrote:
    KBrian <[email protected]> wrote:

    As the comments show, cyclists don’t like following the rules:

    https://road.cc/content/news/two-cyclists-ordered-pay-ps500-cycling-town-centre-308263

    Some of the comments are pure gems.

    Not only the comments, but the article itself. From the first two
    paragraphs, Road.cc falls over itself yet again in its faux indignation against Grimsby’s Public Space Protection Order:

    “….which has previously seen the council accused of targeting the “old and
    slow”…”

    “…two cyclists, 31-year-old Joshua Purton and 46-year-old Lee Tear, handed
    Fixed Penalty Notices…”.

    The ‘old and slow’ jibe is repeated twice more in the article.

    And how many times have we seen on here the ecstatic reporting of drivers
    who have appealed an FPN getting fined even more? Cyclists know what’s good for everyone else but not for them:

    “Purton, however, failed to pay the FPN, leading to his prosecution, while Tear appealed the decision. The 46-year-old’s appeal was not upheld and he was reminded to pay the fine, which remained unpaid. Neither man attended court, with both ordered to pay £534.04 in total, consisting of a £220 fine, £88 victim services surcharge, and £226.04 in costs.”

    The comments are interesting, as some support the measure, but can you imagine the cycling world’s fulmination had a driver put this forward?

    “…It's also often safer to go through a junction than wait at the red and then have to tangle with other traffic when the lights go green and
    possibly be left-hooked etc.”

    🚦🚴👨‍⚖️🙄


    Indeed.

    We’ve just returned from a couple of weeks in the Netherlands - Delft to be exact, we arrived home on Wednesday.

    Delft is one of our ‘regular’ visiting places earlier in the year - we try and get at least two trips to Europe per year, although we’ve missed a few due to COVID, family commitments etc. We tend not to take the car, just the motorhome, and use buses / trams / trains and, of course walk more. This offers more chance to observe how the Dutch bus drivers react to cyclists.

    It is clear there is either no 1.5 m rule or, if there is, it is ignored. Cycle helmets are a rarity. I doubt 1 in 100 wear them. Parents with two, children in seats on a bike - all without helmets- is common. Special bikes with a huge ‘basket’ / box for 4 or 6 child on the front are far from unusual. They must be terrible to steer, let alone stop. Many bikes only
    have a single, back pedal brake.

    What we would deem cycle lanes are also used by motor scooters - it isn’t clear if there is a limit on this ( engine size etc).

    In shopping area, cyclists and motor scooters weave between pedestrians.
    This seems to be legal as stands are provided for the bikes.

    Seeing bikes overloaded with shopping even furniture isn’t unknown. This trip, I saw a young lady carrying a large ( at a guess) 36” TV across her handle bars as she rode down the street.

    Riding on the wrong side of the rode is the norm, including in tram lanes. While the trams are powered by overhead lines ( as far as I can tell), they
    run on rails sunk in the surface so just riding there is unwise.

    The buses are electric and all but silent. Even so, many cyclists wear headphones.


    If you need a kidney, liver, or other organ, it is probably a good place to
    be. The people do seem fit and healthy, so they are probably in good condition.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Spike@21:1/5 to Brian on Sat May 11 08:33:42 2024
    Brian <[email protected]> wrote:
    Spike <[email protected]> wrote:
    KBrian <[email protected]> wrote:

    As the comments show, cyclists don’t like following the rules:

    https://road.cc/content/news/two-cyclists-ordered-pay-ps500-cycling-town-centre-308263

    Some of the comments are pure gems.

    Not only the comments, but the article itself. From the first two
    paragraphs, Road.cc falls over itself yet again in its faux indignation
    against Grimsby’s Public Space Protection Order:

    “….which has previously seen the council accused of targeting the “old and
    slow”…”

    “…two cyclists, 31-year-old Joshua Purton and 46-year-old Lee Tear, handed
    Fixed Penalty Notices…”.

    The ‘old and slow’ jibe is repeated twice more in the article.

    And how many times have we seen on here the ecstatic reporting of drivers
    who have appealed an FPN getting fined even more? Cyclists know what’s good
    for everyone else but not for them:

    “Purton, however, failed to pay the FPN, leading to his prosecution, while >> Tear appealed the decision. The 46-year-old’s appeal was not upheld and he >> was reminded to pay the fine, which remained unpaid. Neither man attended
    court, with both ordered to pay £534.04 in total, consisting of a £220
    fine, £88 victim services surcharge, and £226.04 in costs.”

    The comments are interesting, as some support the measure, but can you
    imagine the cycling world’s fulmination had a driver put this forward?

    “…It's also often safer to go through a junction than wait at the red and
    then have to tangle with other traffic when the lights go green and
    possibly be left-hooked etc.”

    🚦🚴👨‍⚖️🙄


    Indeed.

    We’ve just returned from a couple of weeks in the Netherlands - Delft to be exact, we arrived home on Wednesday.

    Delft is one of our ‘regular’ visiting places earlier in the year - we try
    and get at least two trips to Europe per year, although we’ve missed a few due to COVID, family commitments etc. We tend not to take the car, just the motorhome, and use buses / trams / trains and, of course walk more. This offers more chance to observe how the Dutch bus drivers react to cyclists.

    It is clear there is either no 1.5 m rule or, if there is, it is ignored. Cycle helmets are a rarity. I doubt 1 in 100 wear them. Parents with two, children in seats on a bike - all without helmets- is common. Special bikes with a huge ‘basket’ / box for 4 or 6 child on the front are far from unusual. They must be terrible to steer, let alone stop. Many bikes only have a single, back pedal brake.

    What we would deem cycle lanes are also used by motor scooters - it isn’t clear if there is a limit on this ( engine size etc).

    In shopping area, cyclists and motor scooters weave between pedestrians.
    This seems to be legal as stands are provided for the bikes.

    Seeing bikes overloaded with shopping even furniture isn’t unknown. This trip, I saw a young lady carrying a large ( at a guess) 36” TV across her handle bars as she rode down the street.

    Riding on the wrong side of the rode is the norm, including in tram lanes. While the trams are powered by overhead lines ( as far as I can tell), they run on rails sunk in the surface so just riding there is unwise.

    The buses are electric and all but silent. Even so, many cyclists wear headphones.


    If you need a kidney, liver, or other organ, it is probably a good place to be. The people do seem fit and healthy, so they are probably in good condition.

    It’s interesting to note that the UK cycling media constantly refer to the ‘Dutch model’ for cycling safety. Yet on a per-km basis there is no difference between the death rates of cyclists of the UK and Holland. And
    on a per-capita basis, the death rate in Holland is appalling: for the last
    20 years it has remained steady at 200 per annum in a population of 17m,
    giving a rate of 8x that of the UK.

    I’d like to visit Arnhem, as one of my former neighbours was in the 2nd Parachute Battalion at the bridge, and it would be interesting to make the journey on Lion route from the DZ to where he was finally captured,
    spending his 22nd birthday in prison camp.

    --
    Spike

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Brian@21:1/5 to Spike on Sat May 11 21:49:00 2024
    Spike <[email protected]> wrote:
    Brian <[email protected]> wrote:
    Spike <[email protected]> wrote:
    KBrian <[email protected]> wrote:

    As the comments show, cyclists don’t like following the rules:

    https://road.cc/content/news/two-cyclists-ordered-pay-ps500-cycling-town-centre-308263

    Some of the comments are pure gems.

    Not only the comments, but the article itself. From the first two
    paragraphs, Road.cc falls over itself yet again in its faux indignation >>> against Grimsby’s Public Space Protection Order:

    “….which has previously seen the council accused of targeting the “old and
    slow”…”

    “…two cyclists, 31-year-old Joshua Purton and 46-year-old Lee Tear, handed
    Fixed Penalty Notices…”.

    The ‘old and slow’ jibe is repeated twice more in the article.

    And how many times have we seen on here the ecstatic reporting of drivers >>> who have appealed an FPN getting fined even more? Cyclists know what’s good
    for everyone else but not for them:

    “Purton, however, failed to pay the FPN, leading to his prosecution, while
    Tear appealed the decision. The 46-year-old’s appeal was not upheld and he
    was reminded to pay the fine, which remained unpaid. Neither man attended >>> court, with both ordered to pay £534.04 in total, consisting of a £220 >>> fine, £88 victim services surcharge, and £226.04 in costs.”

    The comments are interesting, as some support the measure, but can you
    imagine the cycling world’s fulmination had a driver put this forward? >>>
    “…It's also often safer to go through a junction than wait at the red and
    then have to tangle with other traffic when the lights go green and
    possibly be left-hooked etc.”

    🚦🚴👨‍⚖️🙄


    Indeed.

    We’ve just returned from a couple of weeks in the Netherlands - Delft to be
    exact, we arrived home on Wednesday.

    Delft is one of our ‘regular’ visiting places earlier in the year - we try
    and get at least two trips to Europe per year, although we’ve missed a few >> due to COVID, family commitments etc. We tend not to take the car, just the >> motorhome, and use buses / trams / trains and, of course walk more. This
    offers more chance to observe how the Dutch bus drivers react to cyclists. >>
    It is clear there is either no 1.5 m rule or, if there is, it is ignored. >> Cycle helmets are a rarity. I doubt 1 in 100 wear them. Parents with two, >> children in seats on a bike - all without helmets- is common. Special bikes >> with a huge ‘basket’ / box for 4 or 6 child on the front are far from
    unusual. They must be terrible to steer, let alone stop. Many bikes only
    have a single, back pedal brake.

    What we would deem cycle lanes are also used by motor scooters - it isn’t >> clear if there is a limit on this ( engine size etc).

    In shopping area, cyclists and motor scooters weave between pedestrians.
    This seems to be legal as stands are provided for the bikes.

    Seeing bikes overloaded with shopping even furniture isn’t unknown. This >> trip, I saw a young lady carrying a large ( at a guess) 36” TV across her >> handle bars as she rode down the street.

    Riding on the wrong side of the rode is the norm, including in tram lanes. >> While the trams are powered by overhead lines ( as far as I can tell), they >> run on rails sunk in the surface so just riding there is unwise.

    The buses are electric and all but silent. Even so, many cyclists wear
    headphones.


    If you need a kidney, liver, or other organ, it is probably a good place to >> be. The people do seem fit and healthy, so they are probably in good
    condition.

    It’s interesting to note that the UK cycling media constantly refer to the ‘Dutch model’ for cycling safety. Yet on a per-km basis there is no difference between the death rates of cyclists of the UK and Holland. And
    on a per-capita basis, the death rate in Holland is appalling: for the last 20 years it has remained steady at 200 per annum in a population of 17m, giving a rate of 8x that of the UK.

    I’d like to visit Arnhem, as one of my former neighbours was in the 2nd Parachute Battalion at the bridge, and it would be interesting to make the journey on Lion route from the DZ to where he was finally captured,
    spending his 22nd birthday in prison camp.


    We visited Arnhem in 2017 or so. I have a relative who lives near there.
    I’d not seen him for 50 years or so. He met a Dutch lady and has retired there.

    We spent some time in Luxembourg last Summer. You would probably find it interesting - they have some good WW2 museums. Spotlessly clean country.
    Free public transport, including trains- even parking at stations.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Spike@21:1/5 to Brian on Sun May 12 08:13:32 2024
    Brian <[email protected]> wrote:
    Spike <[email protected]> wrote:
    Brian <[email protected]> wrote:
    Spike <[email protected]> wrote:
    KBrian <[email protected]> wrote:

    As the comments show, cyclists don’t like following the rules:

    https://road.cc/content/news/two-cyclists-ordered-pay-ps500-cycling-town-centre-308263

    Some of the comments are pure gems.

    Not only the comments, but the article itself. From the first two
    paragraphs, Road.cc falls over itself yet again in its faux indignation >>>> against Grimsby’s Public Space Protection Order:

    “….which has previously seen the council accused of targeting the “old and
    slow”…”

    “…two cyclists, 31-year-old Joshua Purton and 46-year-old Lee Tear, handed
    Fixed Penalty Notices…”.

    The ‘old and slow’ jibe is repeated twice more in the article.

    And how many times have we seen on here the ecstatic reporting of drivers >>>> who have appealed an FPN getting fined even more? Cyclists know what’s good
    for everyone else but not for them:

    “Purton, however, failed to pay the FPN, leading to his prosecution, while
    Tear appealed the decision. The 46-year-old’s appeal was not upheld and he
    was reminded to pay the fine, which remained unpaid. Neither man attended >>>> court, with both ordered to pay £534.04 in total, consisting of a £220 >>>> fine, £88 victim services surcharge, and £226.04 in costs.”

    The comments are interesting, as some support the measure, but can you >>>> imagine the cycling world’s fulmination had a driver put this forward? >>>>
    “…It's also often safer to go through a junction than wait at the red and
    then have to tangle with other traffic when the lights go green and
    possibly be left-hooked etc.”

    🚦🚴👨‍⚖️🙄


    Indeed.

    We’ve just returned from a couple of weeks in the Netherlands - Delft to be
    exact, we arrived home on Wednesday.

    Delft is one of our ‘regular’ visiting places earlier in the year - we try
    and get at least two trips to Europe per year, although we’ve missed a few
    due to COVID, family commitments etc. We tend not to take the car, just the >>> motorhome, and use buses / trams / trains and, of course walk more. This >>> offers more chance to observe how the Dutch bus drivers react to cyclists. >>>
    It is clear there is either no 1.5 m rule or, if there is, it is ignored. >>> Cycle helmets are a rarity. I doubt 1 in 100 wear them. Parents with two, >>> children in seats on a bike - all without helmets- is common. Special bikes >>> with a huge ‘basket’ / box for 4 or 6 child on the front are far from >>> unusual. They must be terrible to steer, let alone stop. Many bikes only >>> have a single, back pedal brake.

    What we would deem cycle lanes are also used by motor scooters - it isn’t >>> clear if there is a limit on this ( engine size etc).

    In shopping area, cyclists and motor scooters weave between pedestrians. >>> This seems to be legal as stands are provided for the bikes.

    Seeing bikes overloaded with shopping even furniture isn’t unknown. This >>> trip, I saw a young lady carrying a large ( at a guess) 36” TV across her >>> handle bars as she rode down the street.

    Riding on the wrong side of the rode is the norm, including in tram lanes. >>> While the trams are powered by overhead lines ( as far as I can tell), they >>> run on rails sunk in the surface so just riding there is unwise.

    The buses are electric and all but silent. Even so, many cyclists wear
    headphones.


    If you need a kidney, liver, or other organ, it is probably a good place to >>> be. The people do seem fit and healthy, so they are probably in good
    condition.

    It’s interesting to note that the UK cycling media constantly refer to the >> ‘Dutch model’ for cycling safety. Yet on a per-km basis there is no
    difference between the death rates of cyclists of the UK and Holland. And
    on a per-capita basis, the death rate in Holland is appalling: for the last >> 20 years it has remained steady at 200 per annum in a population of 17m,
    giving a rate of 8x that of the UK.

    I’d like to visit Arnhem, as one of my former neighbours was in the 2nd
    Parachute Battalion at the bridge, and it would be interesting to make the >> journey on Lion route from the DZ to where he was finally captured,
    spending his 22nd birthday in prison camp.


    We visited Arnhem in 2017 or so. I have a relative who lives near there. I’d not seen him for 50 years or so. He met a Dutch lady and has retired there.

    We spent some time in Luxembourg last Summer. You would probably find it interesting - they have some good WW2 museums. Spotlessly clean country. Free public transport, including trains- even parking at stations.

    So Luxembourg doesn’t use the ‘UK cyclist’ model of public transport and facilities…why am I not surprised😉?

    --
    Spike

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Brian@21:1/5 to Spike on Mon May 13 05:31:51 2024
    Spike <[email protected]> wrote:
    Brian <[email protected]> wrote:
    Spike <[email protected]> wrote:
    Brian <[email protected]> wrote:
    Spike <[email protected]> wrote:
    KBrian <[email protected]> wrote:

    As the comments show, cyclists don’t like following the rules:

    https://road.cc/content/news/two-cyclists-ordered-pay-ps500-cycling-town-centre-308263

    Some of the comments are pure gems.

    Not only the comments, but the article itself. From the first two
    paragraphs, Road.cc falls over itself yet again in its faux indignation >>>>> against Grimsby’s Public Space Protection Order:

    “….which has previously seen the council accused of targeting the “old and
    slow”…”

    “…two cyclists, 31-year-old Joshua Purton and 46-year-old Lee Tear, handed
    Fixed Penalty Notices…”.

    The ‘old and slow’ jibe is repeated twice more in the article.

    And how many times have we seen on here the ecstatic reporting of drivers >>>>> who have appealed an FPN getting fined even more? Cyclists know what’s good
    for everyone else but not for them:

    “Purton, however, failed to pay the FPN, leading to his prosecution, while
    Tear appealed the decision. The 46-year-old’s appeal was not upheld and he
    was reminded to pay the fine, which remained unpaid. Neither man attended >>>>> court, with both ordered to pay £534.04 in total, consisting of a £220 >>>>> fine, £88 victim services surcharge, and £226.04 in costs.”

    The comments are interesting, as some support the measure, but can you >>>>> imagine the cycling world’s fulmination had a driver put this forward? >>>>>
    “…It's also often safer to go through a junction than wait at the red and
    then have to tangle with other traffic when the lights go green and
    possibly be left-hooked etc.”

    🚦🚴👨‍⚖️🙄


    Indeed.

    We’ve just returned from a couple of weeks in the Netherlands - Delft to be
    exact, we arrived home on Wednesday.

    Delft is one of our ‘regular’ visiting places earlier in the year - we try
    and get at least two trips to Europe per year, although we’ve missed a few
    due to COVID, family commitments etc. We tend not to take the car, just the
    motorhome, and use buses / trams / trains and, of course walk more. This >>>> offers more chance to observe how the Dutch bus drivers react to cyclists. >>>>
    It is clear there is either no 1.5 m rule or, if there is, it is ignored. >>>> Cycle helmets are a rarity. I doubt 1 in 100 wear them. Parents with two,
    children in seats on a bike - all without helmets- is common. Special bikes
    with a huge ‘basket’ / box for 4 or 6 child on the front are far from >>>> unusual. They must be terrible to steer, let alone stop. Many bikes only >>>> have a single, back pedal brake.

    What we would deem cycle lanes are also used by motor scooters - it isn’t
    clear if there is a limit on this ( engine size etc).

    In shopping area, cyclists and motor scooters weave between pedestrians. >>>> This seems to be legal as stands are provided for the bikes.

    Seeing bikes overloaded with shopping even furniture isn’t unknown. This >>>> trip, I saw a young lady carrying a large ( at a guess) 36” TV across her
    handle bars as she rode down the street.

    Riding on the wrong side of the rode is the norm, including in tram lanes. >>>> While the trams are powered by overhead lines ( as far as I can tell), they
    run on rails sunk in the surface so just riding there is unwise.

    The buses are electric and all but silent. Even so, many cyclists wear >>>> headphones.


    If you need a kidney, liver, or other organ, it is probably a good place to
    be. The people do seem fit and healthy, so they are probably in good
    condition.

    It’s interesting to note that the UK cycling media constantly refer to the
    ‘Dutch model’ for cycling safety. Yet on a per-km basis there is no
    difference between the death rates of cyclists of the UK and Holland. And >>> on a per-capita basis, the death rate in Holland is appalling: for the last >>> 20 years it has remained steady at 200 per annum in a population of 17m, >>> giving a rate of 8x that of the UK.

    I’d like to visit Arnhem, as one of my former neighbours was in the 2nd >>> Parachute Battalion at the bridge, and it would be interesting to make the >>> journey on Lion route from the DZ to where he was finally captured,
    spending his 22nd birthday in prison camp.


    We visited Arnhem in 2017 or so. I have a relative who lives near there.
    I’d not seen him for 50 years or so. He met a Dutch lady and has retired >> there.

    We spent some time in Luxembourg last Summer. You would probably find it
    interesting - they have some good WW2 museums. Spotlessly clean country.
    Free public transport, including trains- even parking at stations.

    So Luxembourg doesn’t use the ‘UK cyclist’ model of public transport and
    facilities…why am I not surprised😉?


    I didn’t notice any particular special provision for cyclists in
    Luxembourg. That suggests it wasn’t especially noticeable. The roads were very well maintained. Being a small country, it hasn’t got a huge motorway system, although there are some. No roadside litter etc. ( one of my pet hates). I recall seeing a few cyclists out of town but not many. We were
    just north of Luxembourg City - perhaps 20 mins on the (free) train from
    the nearest station. Quite hilly, a bit tough for cyclists 😀

    Certainly somewhere we will revisit.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)