• Is the time now ripe for a Relay League in Britain?

    From gareth evans@21:1/5 to All on Wed Mar 9 11:03:15 2022
    Playnet (AKA Raynet) in this country has always been a bit of a joke,
    but is there scope now for an organisation based on the ARRL
    (American Radio Relay League)?

    This idea has been prompted by the letters column in The
    Daily Telegraph wherein correspondents have been bemoaning
    the loss of PSTN copper landlines after being forced by BT
    to change (not the same as upgrading!) to an optical Internet
    facility and then experiencing problems during the recent
    Winter storms where loss of power has rendered the BT facility
    non-operational accompanied by the collapse of mobile phones
    after an hour or so of power loss. This power loss is
    especially felt in remote areas where there is no mobile
    facility anyway.

    The complaints have expressed concern that in those
    cases, there is no means of contacting the
    emergency services when faced with a danger-to-life
    situation.

    Perhaps an amateur relay network could help in
    such circcumstances, pace that the associated
    radio stations would need a good backup power
    supply to ensure that they themselves would not
    go off the air.

    In a number of areas, coal-mining, telephony,
    electricity, water, health and gas, successive governments
    came to the conclusion that separate and disparate
    private organisations across the country were
    creating an unacceptable mish mash and that
    nationalisation was in the public interest, until
    Maggie Thatcher came along and destroyed them all
    creating once again a mish mash of money-grabbing
    organisations, none of whom had the national interest
    at heart

    Sic transit gloria Mundi

    73 DE Gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339

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  • From Roger Hayter@21:1/5 to gareth evans on Wed Mar 9 20:21:12 2022
    On 9 Mar 2022 at 11:03:15 GMT, "gareth evans" <[email protected]> wrote:

    Playnet (AKA Raynet) in this country has always been a bit of a joke,
    but is there scope now for an organisation based on the ARRL
    (American Radio Relay League)?

    This idea has been prompted by the letters column in The
    Daily Telegraph wherein correspondents have been bemoaning
    the loss of PSTN copper landlines after being forced by BT
    to change (not the same as upgrading!) to an optical Internet
    facility and then experiencing problems during the recent
    Winter storms where loss of power has rendered the BT facility non-operational accompanied by the collapse of mobile phones
    after an hour or so of power loss. This power loss is
    especially felt in remote areas where there is no mobile
    facility anyway.

    The complaints have expressed concern that in those
    cases, there is no means of contacting the
    emergency services when faced with a danger-to-life
    situation.

    Perhaps an amateur relay network could help in
    such circcumstances, pace that the associated
    radio stations would need a good backup power
    supply to ensure that they themselves would not
    go off the air.

    In a number of areas, coal-mining, telephony,
    electricity, water, health and gas, successive governments
    came to the conclusion that separate and disparate
    private organisations across the country were
    creating an unacceptable mish mash and that
    nationalisation was in the public interest, until
    Maggie Thatcher came along and destroyed them all
    creating once again a mish mash of money-grabbing
    organisations, none of whom had the national interest
    at heart

    Sic transit gloria Mundi

    73 DE Gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339

    If we had a radio amateur with a reliable generrator in every village then
    this might work. Perhaps they could operate an emergency only mobile network base station. But I'm not optimistic.
    --
    Roger Hayter

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  • From Ian Jackson@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Thu Mar 10 09:16:42 2022
    In message <[email protected]>, Roger Hayter
    <[email protected]> writes
    On 9 Mar 2022 at 11:03:15 GMT, "gareth evans" <[email protected]> wrote:

    Playnet (AKA Raynet) in this country has always been a bit of a joke,
    but is there scope now for an organisation based on the ARRL
    (American Radio Relay League)?

    This idea has been prompted by the letters column in The
    Daily Telegraph wherein correspondents have been bemoaning
    the loss of PSTN copper landlines after being forced by BT
    to change (not the same as upgrading!) to an optical Internet
    facility and then experiencing problems during the recent
    Winter storms where loss of power has rendered the BT facility
    non-operational accompanied by the collapse of mobile phones
    after an hour or so of power loss. This power loss is
    especially felt in remote areas where there is no mobile
    facility anyway.

    The complaints have expressed concern that in those
    cases, there is no means of contacting the
    emergency services when faced with a danger-to-life
    situation.

    Perhaps an amateur relay network could help in
    such circcumstances, pace that the associated
    radio stations would need a good backup power
    supply to ensure that they themselves would not
    go off the air.

    In a number of areas, coal-mining, telephony,
    electricity, water, health and gas, successive governments
    came to the conclusion that separate and disparate
    private organisations across the country were
    creating an unacceptable mish mash and that
    nationalisation was in the public interest, until
    Maggie Thatcher came along and destroyed them all
    creating once again a mish mash of money-grabbing
    organisations, none of whom had the national interest
    at heart

    Sic transit gloria Mundi

    73 DE Gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339

    If we had a radio amateur with a reliable generrator in every village then >this might work. Perhaps they could operate an emergency only mobile network >base station. But I'm not optimistic.

    When there is no mains power, and the phone system is dead, people
    suddenly find that they have no means of even communicating across the
    road, let alone with the emergency services.

    While it's probably asking a bit much to expect many amateurs to be
    around to provide communications, what use is made of the other radios
    that the general public can readily avail themselves of - eg CB radio
    and PMR446? I suspect it's very little. Mobile phones have nullified
    nearly all public demand for (or interest in) such equipment - and apart
    from hobbyists, very few 'ordinary people' possess anything that can be
    pressed into service. Perhaps it's time to re-invent some sort of Civil
    Defence organisation (even if extremely informal) so that some semblance
    of emergency communications can be established?
    --
    Ian

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  • From Graham Nye@21:1/5 to gareth evans on Thu Mar 10 21:36:59 2022
    On 2022-03-09 11:03:15, gareth evans wrote:

    In a number of areas, coal-mining, telephony,
    electricity, water, health and gas, successive governments
    came to the conclusion that separate and disparate
    private organisations across the country were
    creating an unacceptable mish mash and that
    nationalisation was in the public interest, until
    Maggie Thatcher came along and destroyed them all
    creating once again a mish mash of money-grabbing
    organisations, none of whom had the national interest
    at heart.

    This seems counter-factual. At the time the then
    Mrs Thatcher came to power (i.e. 1979) all these
    organisations were already nationalised.

    The "public interest" was marked by regular strikes
    and/or monopolistic practices. For example, if you
    wanted a telephone line you had to wait 3 months
    then choose between two types of phone to rent.

    Mrs Thatcher broke up these nationalised monopolies.
    The last two times I changed telephony provider (not
    of course allowed under nationalisation) it took
    under a month each time. We have, of course, for a
    long time been able to buy outright, for the cost
    of one or two quarters rent, our own choice of phone.



    --
    Graham Nye
    news(a)thenyes.org.uk

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  • From Roger Hayter@21:1/5 to Graham Nye on Thu Mar 10 23:21:08 2022
    On 10 Mar 2022 at 21:36:59 GMT, "Graham Nye" <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 2022-03-09 11:03:15, gareth evans wrote:

    In a number of areas, coal-mining, telephony,
    electricity, water, health and gas, successive governments
    came to the conclusion that separate and disparate
    private organisations across the country were
    creating an unacceptable mish mash and that
    nationalisation was in the public interest, until
    Maggie Thatcher came along and destroyed them all
    creating once again a mish mash of money-grabbing
    organisations, none of whom had the national interest
    at heart.

    This seems counter-factual. At the time the then
    Mrs Thatcher came to power (i.e. 1979) all these
    organisations were already nationalised.

    The "public interest" was marked by regular strikes
    and/or monopolistic practices. For example, if you
    wanted a telephone line you had to wait 3 months
    then choose between two types of phone to rent.

    Mrs Thatcher broke up these nationalised monopolies.
    The last two times I changed telephony provider (not
    of course allowed under nationalisation) it took
    under a month each time. We have, of course, for a
    long time been able to buy outright, for the cost
    of one or two quarters rent, our own choice of phone.

    But maybe not all that improvement was due to privatisation, there have been one or two improvements in electronics and telecoms since then! What hasn't improved is the resilience of the telephone system, which used to be safeguarded by exchange batteries, and was pretty resistant to power loss or EMP. Not entirely wind resistant though, and trunks probably relied on electronics.

    But this is old politics, let us concentrate on whether amateurs have a role
    in disaster communications.

    --
    Roger Hayter

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  • From Spike@21:1/5 to Ian Jackson on Fri Mar 11 11:06:22 2022
    On 10/03/2022 09:16, Ian Jackson wrote:

    Perhaps it's time to re-invent some sort of Civil
    Defence organisation (even if extremely informal) so that some semblance
    of emergency communications can be established?

    One suspects that with Putin warming things up for a false-flag CBW
    attack in Ukraine and his having mentioned nuclear weapons, perhaps what
    we might need is a 'proper' CD organisation rather than an 'amateur' one.

    --
    Spike

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  • From gareth evans@21:1/5 to Spike on Fri Mar 11 16:49:18 2022
    On 11/03/2022 11:06, Spike wrote:
    On 10/03/2022 09:16, Ian Jackson wrote:

    Perhaps it's time to re-invent some sort of Civil
    Defence organisation (even if extremely informal) so that some semblance
    of emergency communications can be established?

    One suspects that with Putin warming things up for a false-flag CBW
    attack in Ukraine and his having mentioned nuclear weapons, perhaps what
    we might need is a 'proper' CD organisation rather than an 'amateur' one.


    As regards the C in CBW, there is hypocrisy in Britain, for were you to
    be killed by a British shell exploding close by, what would be exploding
    would be chemicals.

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  • From Brian@21:1/5 to Roger Hayter on Sat Mar 12 07:00:34 2022
    Roger Hayter <[email protected]> wrote:


    If we had a radio amateur with a reliable generrator in every village then this might work. Perhaps they could operate an emergency only mobile network base station. But I'm not optimistic.


    In a decade or two, how will that generator be powered?

    Once petrol / diesel vehicles are no longer manufactured, fuel for them
    will inevitably become scarce. When was the last time you saw calcium
    carbide in the shops? At one time it would have been available readily ( it
    was used in lamps).

    Likewise, there is take of phasing out gas. If natural gas goes, LPG ( the other common fuel for generators) will almost certainly follow.

    As we’ve seen recently, wind and solar aren’t reliable even in normal times ( Covid has been blamed for many things but the failures of wind and solar
    are not due to the nasty little bug.)

    Batteries need to be kept charged / recharged. Even professional (
    emergency) organisations struggle to ensure they do that. (A friend used to
    be involved in such things - maintaining the chargers etc. Some of the
    stories he related didn’t inspire confidence in our emergency services.)

    Remember, following the high winds a few weeks ago, there were people
    without electricity for 10 days or more. This wasn’t in some remote bit of Scotland - as delightful as such places are. It was in Kent, were you
    struggle to find a remote spot. No electricity (generally) means no
    central heating as even a gas fuel system requires electricity for the
    pump, controls etc.

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  • From Mark M Gammon@21:1/5 to Spike on Sun Mar 13 14:34:48 2022
    On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 11:06:22 +0000
    Spike <[email protected]d> wrote:

    On 10/03/2022 09:16, Ian Jackson wrote:

    Perhaps it's time to re-invent some sort of Civil
    Defence organisation (even if extremely informal) so that some
    semblance of emergency communications can be established?

    One suspects that with Putin warming things up for a false-flag CBW
    attack in Ukraine and his having mentioned nuclear weapons, perhaps
    what we might need is a 'proper' CD organisation rather than an
    'amateur' one.


    At least the Russians helped us get Brexit done. Which will hopefully
    save us from the ever worsening EU H&S rules regarding RF fields.

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  • From Theo@21:1/5 to Roger Hayter on Sun Mar 13 11:09:02 2022
    Roger Hayter <[email protected]> wrote:
    If we had a radio amateur with a reliable generrator in every village then this might work. Perhaps they could operate an emergency only mobile network base station. But I'm not optimistic.

    Wouldn't it make sense to plug the generator into the existing mobile basestation? Or even mandate that masts should be located with enough generators such that a suitable baseline level of coverage is provided?

    Why would you rely on having a bunch of radio amateurs, who may or may not
    be in the right place with the right (undamaged) equipment, when there's an existing packet-radio system and everyone has a transceiver in their pocket? (and many people have a suitable generator/charger parked outside)

    If this was a Tonga underwater volcano kind of scenario, when the underwater cables are damaged and whole islands/regions cut off, then I could see the advantage of having an emergency network with no fixed infrastructure at
    all. But we don't tend to have major earthquakes in the UK and a buried bit
    of fibre is fairly resilient to other kinds of emergencies (flooding, etc).

    Maybe for Scottish islands it might make sense, but I can't see how it would for places where backbones are still intact.

    Theo

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  • From David Woolley@21:1/5 to Theo on Mon Mar 14 10:43:45 2022
    On 13/03/2022 11:09, Theo wrote:
    Or even mandate that masts should be located with enough
    generators such that a suitable baseline level of coverage is provided?

    I believe that one of the issues there is that generators don't work
    without fuel, and fuel is much easier to sell on the black market than
    mobile phone base transmitters.

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  • From David Woolley@21:1/5 to Mark M Gammon on Mon Mar 14 10:29:25 2022
    On 13/03/2022 14:34, Mark M Gammon wrote:
    At least the Russians helped us get Brexit done. Which will hopefully

    You need to consider why!

    save us from the ever worsening EU H&S rules regarding RF fields.

    They are also US rules, and I seem to remember that we are courting the
    US as a new trade partner. The US has had stronger rules on RF safety
    and amateur operation for some time (there is a section on them in the
    ARRL handbook I've had for a few years), and they tightened them up
    further, a year or two ago, removing some exemptions for amateurs.

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