• =?UTF-8?Q?Don=E2=80=99t=20sing=20=E2=80=99Flower=20of?= =?UTF-8?Q?=20Sc

    From Spike@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jun 28 08:25:02 2025
    …because doing so is a recordable hate-related non-crime, according to the news this morning. The report below is a previous publication on the
    matter.

    In the ten years following the introduction of operational guidance, some 250,000 such incidents have been recorded.

    <https://freespeechunion.org/police-are-incorrectly-recording-too-many-non-crime-hate-incidents-watchdog-warns/>

    Quote:

    The report prepared by His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire
    & Rescue Services (HMICFRS) was commissioned in September 2023 by Suella Braverman, the former home secretary, following concerns that public
    confidence in the police was being eroded by forces “pandering to
    politically correct causes” and taking sides on controversial issues.

    In its report, the policing watchdog considered several issues, including
    how police deal with NCHIs.

    As defined by the College of Policing’s (CoP’s) 2014 Hate Crime Operation Guidance (HCOG), an NCHI is any incident perceived by the victim or any bystanders to be motivated by hostility or prejudice to the victim based on
    a ‘protected’ characteristic (race or perceived race, religion or perceived religion, and so on).

    “Perceived” is the operative word here, since as the guidance goes on to note: “The victim does not have to justify or provide evidence of their belief, and police officers or staff should not directly challenge this perception. Evidence of the hostility is not required.”

    In other words, according to the CoP, the recording threshold for an NCHI
    is that someone has taken subjective offence to something perfectly lawful
    that someone else has said or posted online, whether it’s directed at them
    or not.
    Unquote.

    --
    Spike

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  • From Roger Hayter@21:1/5 to Spike on Sat Jun 28 14:52:58 2025
    On 28 Jun 2025 at 09:25:02 BST, "Spike" <[email protected]> wrote:


    …because doing so is a recordable hate-related non-crime, according to the news this morning. The report below is a previous publication on the
    matter.

    In the ten years following the introduction of operational guidance, some 250,000 such incidents have been recorded.

    <https://freespeechunion.org/police-are-incorrectly-recording-too-many-non-crime-hate-incidents-watchdog-warns/>

    Quote:

    The report prepared by His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services (HMICFRS) was commissioned in September 2023 by Suella Braverman, the former home secretary, following concerns that public confidence in the police was being eroded by forces “pandering to politically correct causes” and taking sides on controversial issues.

    In its report, the policing watchdog considered several issues, including
    how police deal with NCHIs.

    As defined by the College of Policing’s (CoP’s) 2014 Hate Crime Operation Guidance (HCOG), an NCHI is any incident perceived by the victim or any bystanders to be motivated by hostility or prejudice to the victim based on
    a ‘protected’ characteristic (race or perceived race, religion or perceived
    religion, and so on).

    “Perceived” is the operative word here, since as the guidance goes on to note: “The victim does not have to justify or provide evidence of their belief, and police officers or staff should not directly challenge this perception. Evidence of the hostility is not required.”

    In other words, according to the CoP, the recording threshold for an NCHI
    is that someone has taken subjective offence to something perfectly lawful that someone else has said or posted online, whether it’s directed at them or not.
    Unquote.

    You give no reference for suggesting singing Flower of Scotland being a hate crime. Was it proper news or something like GBNews that told you that? Did you check to see whether they were being facetious without telling you?

    The "free speech union" is of course a right wing propaganda organisation. Whether recording non-crime hate incidents is a good thing or a bad thing surely depends on what they do with the information. If they use it to help people be nice to each other surely that can only be a good thing? Except of course for right wing propaganda organisations trying to whip up communal hatred?


    --

    Roger Hayter

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Davey@21:1/5 to Roger Hayter on Sat Jun 28 16:00:35 2025
    On 28 Jun 2025 14:52:58 GMT
    Roger Hayter <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 28 Jun 2025 at 09:25:02 BST, "Spike" <[email protected]> wrote:


    …because doing so is a recordable hate-related non-crime, according
    to the news this morning. The report below is a previous
    publication on the matter.

    In the ten years following the introduction of operational
    guidance, some 250,000 such incidents have been recorded.

    <https://freespeechunion.org/police-are-incorrectly-recording-too-many-non-crime-hate-incidents-watchdog-warns/>

    Quote:

    The report prepared by His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary
    and Fire & Rescue Services (HMICFRS) was commissioned in September
    2023 by Suella Braverman, the former home secretary, following
    concerns that public confidence in the police was being eroded by
    forces “pandering to politically correct causes” and taking sides
    on controversial issues.

    In its report, the policing watchdog considered several issues,
    including how police deal with NCHIs.

    As defined by the College of Policing’s (CoP’s) 2014 Hate Crime Operation Guidance (HCOG), an NCHI is any incident perceived by the
    victim or any bystanders to be motivated by hostility or prejudice
    to the victim based on a ‘protected’ characteristic (race or
    perceived race, religion or perceived religion, and so on).

    “Perceived” is the operative word here, since as the guidance goes
    on to note: “The victim does not have to justify or provide
    evidence of their belief, and police officers or staff should not
    directly challenge this perception. Evidence of the hostility is
    not required.”

    In other words, according to the CoP, the recording threshold for
    an NCHI is that someone has taken subjective offence to something
    perfectly lawful that someone else has said or posted online,
    whether it’s directed at them or not.
    Unquote.

    You give no reference for suggesting singing Flower of Scotland being
    a hate crime. Was it proper news or something like GBNews that told
    you that? Did you check to see whether they were being facetious
    without telling you?

    The "free speech union" is of course a right wing propaganda
    organisation. Whether recording non-crime hate incidents is a good
    thing or a bad thing surely depends on what they do with the
    information. If they use it to help people be nice to each other
    surely that can only be a good thing? Except of course for right wing propaganda organisations trying to whip up communal hatred?



    Further down in the article, it states:"One reason why the High Court
    and the Court of Appeal looked askance at the recording and retention
    of NCHIs on the scale it was happening is because they can show up on
    enhanced criminal records checks and stop people getting jobs."
    That is something that I would be pretty peeved off about if it happened
    to me. If I haven't committed a crime, why should it be on my record?

    --
    Davey.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Roger Hayter@21:1/5 to Davey on Sat Jun 28 15:08:24 2025
    On 28 Jun 2025 at 16:00:35 BST, "Davey" <[email protected]d> wrote:

    On 28 Jun 2025 14:52:58 GMT
    Roger Hayter <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 28 Jun 2025 at 09:25:02 BST, "Spike" <[email protected]> wrote:


    …because doing so is a recordable hate-related non-crime, according
    to the news this morning. The report below is a previous
    publication on the matter.

    In the ten years following the introduction of operational
    guidance, some 250,000 such incidents have been recorded.

    <https://freespeechunion.org/police-are-incorrectly-recording-too-many-non-crime-hate-incidents-watchdog-warns/>

    Quote:

    The report prepared by His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary
    and Fire & Rescue Services (HMICFRS) was commissioned in September
    2023 by Suella Braverman, the former home secretary, following
    concerns that public confidence in the police was being eroded by
    forces “pandering to politically correct causes” and taking sides
    on controversial issues.

    In its report, the policing watchdog considered several issues,
    including how police deal with NCHIs.

    As defined by the College of Policing’s (CoP’s) 2014 Hate Crime
    Operation Guidance (HCOG), an NCHI is any incident perceived by the
    victim or any bystanders to be motivated by hostility or prejudice
    to the victim based on a ‘protected’ characteristic (race or
    perceived race, religion or perceived religion, and so on).

    “Perceived” is the operative word here, since as the guidance goes
    on to note: “The victim does not have to justify or provide
    evidence of their belief, and police officers or staff should not
    directly challenge this perception. Evidence of the hostility is
    not required.”

    In other words, according to the CoP, the recording threshold for
    an NCHI is that someone has taken subjective offence to something
    perfectly lawful that someone else has said or posted online,
    whether it’s directed at them or not.
    Unquote.

    You give no reference for suggesting singing Flower of Scotland being
    a hate crime. Was it proper news or something like GBNews that told
    you that? Did you check to see whether they were being facetious
    without telling you?

    The "free speech union" is of course a right wing propaganda
    organisation. Whether recording non-crime hate incidents is a good
    thing or a bad thing surely depends on what they do with the
    information. If they use it to help people be nice to each other
    surely that can only be a good thing? Except of course for right wing
    propaganda organisations trying to whip up communal hatred?



    Further down in the article, it states:"One reason why the High Court
    and the Court of Appeal looked askance at the recording and retention
    of NCHIs on the scale it was happening is because they can show up on enhanced criminal records checks and stop people getting jobs."
    That is something that I would be pretty peeved off about if it happened
    to me. If I haven't committed a crime, why should it be on my record?

    You are aware of course that any rumour or accusation against you, or any suspicion, can also show up on enhanced checks, even if you have never been told about it, quite apart from "hate incidents"? I agree personally that both are unacceptable. But we will be told to "think of the children".

    --

    Roger Hayter

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Davey@21:1/5 to Roger Hayter on Sat Jun 28 18:17:45 2025
    On 28 Jun 2025 15:08:24 GMT
    Roger Hayter <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 28 Jun 2025 at 16:00:35 BST, "Davey" <[email protected]d> wrote:

    On 28 Jun 2025 14:52:58 GMT
    Roger Hayter <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 28 Jun 2025 at 09:25:02 BST, "Spike" <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    …because doing so is a recordable hate-related non-crime,
    according to the news this morning. The report below is a previous
    publication on the matter.

    In the ten years following the introduction of operational
    guidance, some 250,000 such incidents have been recorded.

    <https://freespeechunion.org/police-are-incorrectly-recording-too-many-non-crime-hate-incidents-watchdog-warns/>

    Quote:

    The report prepared by His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary
    and Fire & Rescue Services (HMICFRS) was commissioned in September
    2023 by Suella Braverman, the former home secretary, following
    concerns that public confidence in the police was being eroded by
    forces “pandering to politically correct causes” and taking sides
    on controversial issues.

    In its report, the policing watchdog considered several issues,
    including how police deal with NCHIs.

    As defined by the College of Policing’s (CoP’s) 2014 Hate Crime
    Operation Guidance (HCOG), an NCHI is any incident perceived by
    the victim or any bystanders to be motivated by hostility or
    prejudice to the victim based on a ‘protected’ characteristic
    (race or perceived race, religion or perceived religion, and so
    on).

    “Perceived” is the operative word here, since as the guidance goes >>> on to note: “The victim does not have to justify or provide
    evidence of their belief, and police officers or staff should not
    directly challenge this perception. Evidence of the hostility is
    not required.”

    In other words, according to the CoP, the recording threshold for
    an NCHI is that someone has taken subjective offence to something
    perfectly lawful that someone else has said or posted online,
    whether it’s directed at them or not.
    Unquote.

    You give no reference for suggesting singing Flower of Scotland
    being a hate crime. Was it proper news or something like GBNews
    that told you that? Did you check to see whether they were being
    facetious without telling you?

    The "free speech union" is of course a right wing propaganda
    organisation. Whether recording non-crime hate incidents is a good
    thing or a bad thing surely depends on what they do with the
    information. If they use it to help people be nice to each other
    surely that can only be a good thing? Except of course for right
    wing propaganda organisations trying to whip up communal hatred?



    Further down in the article, it states:"One reason why the High
    Court and the Court of Appeal looked askance at the recording and
    retention of NCHIs on the scale it was happening is because they
    can show up on enhanced criminal records checks and stop people
    getting jobs." That is something that I would be pretty peeved off
    about if it happened to me. If I haven't committed a crime, why
    should it be on my record?

    You are aware of course that any rumour or accusation against you, or
    any suspicion, can also show up on enhanced checks, even if you have
    never been told about it, quite apart from "hate incidents"? I agree personally that both are unacceptable. But we will be told to "think
    of the children".


    Thankfully, I don't have any. That I know of, anyway.

    This maps into a scenario that I encountered recently. I have dashcam
    footage of a serial tailgater following me. I sent it to the police,
    who told me that the offender, clearly identifiable from his license
    plate, would be issued with a NIP. But he would not be shown the
    recording, so if he had no idea of what this was about, he would not be
    able to simply plead guilty based on the evidence, as he had not seen
    the evidence. So, not knowing the circumstances, he might well choose
    to go to trial, when he would see the film. At which point, he would
    almost certainly plead guilty, the evidence is clear. But if he had been
    shown the film earlier, he would have quickly decided not to go to
    trial, so saving everybody a lot of time and expense.

    --
    Davey.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Spike@21:1/5 to Roger Hayter on Sat Jun 28 18:37:01 2025
    Roger Hayter <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 28 Jun 2025 at 09:25:02 BST, "Spike" <[email protected]> wrote:


    …because doing so is a recordable hate-related non-crime, according to the >> news this morning. The report below is a previous publication on the
    matter.

    In the ten years following the introduction of operational guidance, some
    250,000 such incidents have been recorded.

    <https://freespeechunion.org/police-are-incorrectly-recording-too-many-non-crime-hate-incidents-watchdog-warns/>

    Quote:

    The report prepared by His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire >> & Rescue Services (HMICFRS) was commissioned in September 2023 by Suella
    Braverman, the former home secretary, following concerns that public
    confidence in the police was being eroded by forces “pandering to
    politically correct causes” and taking sides on controversial issues.

    In its report, the policing watchdog considered several issues, including
    how police deal with NCHIs.

    As defined by the College of Policing’s (CoP’s) 2014 Hate Crime Operation
    Guidance (HCOG), an NCHI is any incident perceived by the victim or any
    bystanders to be motivated by hostility or prejudice to the victim based on >> a ‘protected’ characteristic (race or perceived race, religion or perceived
    religion, and so on).

    “Perceived” is the operative word here, since as the guidance goes on to >> note: “The victim does not have to justify or provide evidence of their
    belief, and police officers or staff should not directly challenge this
    perception. Evidence of the hostility is not required.”

    In other words, according to the CoP, the recording threshold for an NCHI
    is that someone has taken subjective offence to something perfectly lawful >> that someone else has said or posted online, whether it’s directed at them >> or not.
    Unquote.

    You give no reference for suggesting singing Flower of Scotland being a hate crime.

    The very definition of a Non-Crime Hate Incident (NCHI) is that it is not a crime! The clue is in the name, of course. Ergo, I cannot give a reference
    to something that doesn’t exist, and I am surprised you raised the matter.

    Was it proper news or something like GBNews that told you that? Did
    you check to see whether they were being facetious without telling you?

    The "free speech union" is of course a right wing propaganda organisation. Whether recording non-crime hate incidents is a good thing or a bad thing surely depends on what they do with the information. If they use it to help people be nice to each other surely that can only be a good thing? Except of course for right wing propaganda organisations trying to whip up communal hatred?

    I note with interest that you have not commented on the quotations from the 2023 report by His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services.

    Al Jazeera, not noted for its right-wing tendencies,
    said this in December 2024:

    Quote: Last month, The Times newspaper revealed its own investigation,
    which found that a nine-year-old who called a classmate a “retard” and two secondary school pupils who said another pupil “smelled like fish” had been logged by police as having committed NCHIs.

    Other children had also been reported – and their actions recorded by
    police – The Times investigation found. The Times said it uncovered “widespread confusion” among police over what types of incidents should be recorded.

    Complaints of NCHIs have increased recently. Based on data from 45 of the UK’s 48 police forces, 13,200 complaints were recorded over the last year. Based on this number of complaints, UK think tank Policy Exchange projected
    in a report published on November 25, that more than 60,000 police hours
    per annum were spent on NCHIs. Unquote

    <https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/12/21/what-are-non-crime-hate-incidents-which-have-become-so-hated-in-the-uk>

    --
    Spike

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From GB@21:1/5 to Roger Hayter on Sat Jun 28 18:02:35 2025
    On 28/06/2025 16:08, Roger Hayter wrote:

    You are aware of course that any rumour or accusation against you, or any suspicion, can also show up on enhanced checks, even if you have never been told about it, quite apart from "hate incidents"? I agree personally that both
    are unacceptable. But we will be told to "think of the children".


    I hear you, but there's the example of Ian Huntley.

    "Though Ian Huntley had no convictions for sex offences, he had been
    reported to police in his native Humberside on six occasions over sexual assaults or sexual relationships with underage girls."

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/dec/17/soham.ukcrime2


    He was vetted, but the process was bungled. However, if allegations are
    not even recorded, then there's nothing to find. And, if you don't
    record the allegations, there's no way to notice that there are six
    separate ones.

    So, yes, think of the children.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Max Demian@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jun 29 12:06:58 2025
    On 28/06/2025 18:02, GB wrote:
    On 28/06/2025 16:08, Roger Hayter wrote:

    You are aware of course that any rumour or accusation against you, or any
    suspicion, can also show up on enhanced checks, even if you have never
    been
    told about it, quite apart from "hate incidents"? I agree personally
    that both
    are unacceptable. But we will be told to "think of the children".


    I hear you, but there's the example of Ian Huntley.

    "Though Ian Huntley had no convictions for sex offences, he had been
    reported to police in his native Humberside on six occasions over sexual assaults or sexual relationships with underage girls."

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/dec/17/soham.ukcrime2

    He was vetted, but the process was bungled. However, if allegations are
    not even recorded, then there's nothing to find. And, if you don't
    record the allegations, there's no way to notice that there are six
    separate ones.

    So, yes, think of the children.

    Of course, even if the procedure had worked correctly, Huntley would
    still have had access to the girls as that was through his girlfriend,
    Maxine Carr.

    --
    Max Demian

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  • From Jethro_uk@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jun 29 13:00:49 2025
    Well, to be fair, I have logged hundreds of incidents of police stupidity
    in my own head. Fairs fair and all that.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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