• Signing every page of a will

    From Pamela@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 1 22:48:08 2025
    Would it be good practice for the testator to sign his or her will on every page? I gather it's not strictly necessary but the valid alternatives seem distinctly inferior.

    I believe the requirement is only the last page needs signing (and
    witnessing) if the pages are bound to one another when signed. However in
    an age of word processors, this seems open to potential malpractice.

    I also understand that each of the pages of a will can be initialled and
    the last one signed (and witnessed). However initials seem relatively easy
    to forge and a signature on each page seems more secure.

    So why isn't the general advice to sign every page (with witnesses on the
    last page)?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andy Burns@21:1/5 to Pamela on Sun Mar 2 07:53:47 2025
    Pamela wrote:

    I believe the requirement is only the last page needs signing (and witnessing) if the pages are bound to one another when signed.

    I've only dealt with one estate which wasn't intestate, before sending
    the original will in the post, I decided to have a certified copy made
    by a solicitor. They separated the pages, photocopied and re-stapled
    the original, I did get a query from the court about the two sets of
    staple holes ...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Walker@21:1/5 to Andy Burns on Sun Mar 2 08:47:27 2025
    Andy Burns <[email protected]> wrote in news:m2ih4eFhr5cU1 @mid.individual.net:

    Pamela wrote:

    I believe the requirement is only the last page needs signing (and
    witnessing) if the pages are bound to one another when signed.

    I've only dealt with one estate which wasn't intestate, before sending
    the original will in the post, I decided to have a certified copy made
    by a solicitor. They separated the pages, photocopied and re-stapled
    the original, I did get a query from the court about the two sets of
    staple holes ...


    Similarly when dealing with an estate a bank employee wanted to copy the
    will for their files and moved to remove the staples which I quickly put
    down. They just didn't get the idea that doing so could potentially affect
    the integrity of the will, "we always do it this way". Ease of copying (doc feeder) vs integrity.

    As the o/p states, in these days of self printed wills (rather than
    punched, ribbon bound and sealed) it would appear to make sense to sign or initial each page but would welcome informed opinion in case there is a
    bear trap waiting to snap as a result.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Johnson@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun Mar 2 11:20:17 2025
    On Sat, 01 Mar 2025 22:48:08 GMT, Pamela
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Would it be good practice for the testator to sign his or her will on every >page? I gather it's not strictly necessary but the valid alternatives seem >distinctly inferior.

    I believe the requirement is only the last page needs signing (and >witnessing) if the pages are bound to one another when signed. However in
    an age of word processors, this seems open to potential malpractice.

    I also understand that each of the pages of a will can be initialled and
    the last one signed (and witnessed). However initials seem relatively easy
    to forge and a signature on each page seems more secure.

    So why isn't the general advice to sign every page (with witnesses on the >last page)?

    I have no idea, but resumably the legal profession doesn't have a
    problem with it being like that. (When I made my last will (in 2018,
    I've just checked) I was only required to sign the last page, and the
    witnesses signatures went on the following page.)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From nib@21:1/5 to Peter Walker on Sun Mar 2 10:35:45 2025
    On 2025-03-02 08:47, Peter Walker wrote:
    Andy Burns <[email protected]> wrote in news:m2ih4eFhr5cU1 @mid.individual.net:

    Pamela wrote:

    I believe the requirement is only the last page needs signing (and
    witnessing) if the pages are bound to one another when signed.

    I've only dealt with one estate which wasn't intestate, before sending
    the original will in the post, I decided to have a certified copy made
    by a solicitor. They separated the pages, photocopied and re-stapled
    the original, I did get a query from the court about the two sets of
    staple holes ...


    Similarly when dealing with an estate a bank employee wanted to copy the
    will for their files and moved to remove the staples which I quickly put down. They just didn't get the idea that doing so could potentially affect the integrity of the will, "we always do it this way". Ease of copying (doc feeder) vs integrity.

    As the o/p states, in these days of self printed wills (rather than
    punched, ribbon bound and sealed) it would appear to make sense to sign or initial each page but would welcome informed opinion in case there is a
    bear trap waiting to snap as a result.


    Our latest solicitor-generated wills were initialled on every page by
    the testator and both witnesses, the witnesses being the solicitor and a
    junior employee of the firm.

    nib

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Todal@21:1/5 to Peter Johnson on Sun Mar 2 12:10:26 2025
    On 02/03/2025 11:20, Peter Johnson wrote:
    On Sat, 01 Mar 2025 22:48:08 GMT, Pamela
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Would it be good practice for the testator to sign his or her will on every >> page? I gather it's not strictly necessary but the valid alternatives seem >> distinctly inferior.

    I believe the requirement is only the last page needs signing (and
    witnessing) if the pages are bound to one another when signed. However in
    an age of word processors, this seems open to potential malpractice.

    I also understand that each of the pages of a will can be initialled and
    the last one signed (and witnessed). However initials seem relatively easy >> to forge and a signature on each page seems more secure.

    So why isn't the general advice to sign every page (with witnesses on the
    last page)?

    I have no idea, but resumably the legal profession doesn't have a
    problem with it being like that. (When I made my last will (in 2018,
    I've just checked) I was only required to sign the last page, and the witnesses signatures went on the following page.)


    The Wills Act 1837 does not require a signature on every page. I see
    that online advice from law firms is that there is no need to sign or
    initial every page.

    A wobbly signature from someone close to death or with dementia would
    cast doubt on the validity of the will, or be easy to forge.

    The only protection really is that there must be witnesses to the
    signing. But they don't have to be living at the time the testator dies.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Walker@21:1/5 to The Todal on Sun Mar 2 13:25:36 2025
    The Todal <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

    On 02/03/2025 11:20, Peter Johnson wrote:
    On Sat, 01 Mar 2025 22:48:08 GMT, Pamela
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Would it be good practice for the testator to sign his or her will
    on every page? I gather it's not strictly necessary but the valid
    alternatives seem distinctly inferior.

    I believe the requirement is only the last page needs signing (and
    witnessing) if the pages are bound to one another when signed.
    However in an age of word processors, this seems open to potential
    malpractice.

    I also understand that each of the pages of a will can be initialled
    and the last one signed (and witnessed). However initials seem
    relatively easy to forge and a signature on each page seems more
    secure.

    So why isn't the general advice to sign every page (with witnesses
    on the last page)?

    I have no idea, but resumably the legal profession doesn't have a
    problem with it being like that. (When I made my last will (in 2018,
    I've just checked) I was only required to sign the last page, and the
    witnesses signatures went on the following page.)



    The only protection really is that there must be witnesses to the
    signing. But they don't have to be living at the time the testator
    dies.


    Yes but that offers no protection from page substitution in a simple
    stapled paper will. The witness(es) have no right to view the content of
    the will.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Todal@21:1/5 to Peter Walker on Sun Mar 2 13:48:54 2025
    On 02/03/2025 13:25, Peter Walker wrote:
    The Todal <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

    On 02/03/2025 11:20, Peter Johnson wrote:
    On Sat, 01 Mar 2025 22:48:08 GMT, Pamela
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Would it be good practice for the testator to sign his or her will
    on every page? I gather it's not strictly necessary but the valid
    alternatives seem distinctly inferior.

    I believe the requirement is only the last page needs signing (and
    witnessing) if the pages are bound to one another when signed.
    However in an age of word processors, this seems open to potential
    malpractice.

    I also understand that each of the pages of a will can be initialled
    and the last one signed (and witnessed). However initials seem
    relatively easy to forge and a signature on each page seems more
    secure.

    So why isn't the general advice to sign every page (with witnesses
    on the last page)?

    I have no idea, but resumably the legal profession doesn't have a
    problem with it being like that. (When I made my last will (in 2018,
    I've just checked) I was only required to sign the last page, and the
    witnesses signatures went on the following page.)



    The only protection really is that there must be witnesses to the
    signing. But they don't have to be living at the time the testator
    dies.


    Yes but that offers no protection from page substitution in a simple
    stapled paper will. The witness(es) have no right to view the content of
    the will.


    And often the witnesses have died before the testator. And the witnesses
    do not get a copy of the will that they have witnessed so they cannot be expected to remember what is in it - in fact, all they are entitled to
    do is witness a signature. Not to confirm that the testator appears to
    be of sound mind.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From GB@21:1/5 to The Todal on Sun Mar 2 17:05:19 2025
    On 02/03/2025 13:48, The Todal wrote:

    And often the witnesses have died before the testator. And the witnesses
    do not get a copy of the will that they have witnessed so they cannot be expected to remember what is in it - in fact, all they are entitled to
    do is witness a signature. Not to confirm that the testator appears to
    be of sound mind.


    My will is incredibly mundane, and I'd have no difficulty with all the beneficiaries having a copy (now, before I die). That is one way to
    remove any possibility of fraud.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to The Todal on Tue Mar 4 09:40:44 2025
    On 02/03/2025 13:48, The Todal wrote:
    On 02/03/2025 13:25, Peter Walker wrote:
    The Todal <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    The only protection really is that there must be witnesses to the
    signing. But they don't have to be living at the time the testator
    dies.

    Yes but that offers no protection from page substitution in a simple
    stapled paper will. The witness(es) have no right to view the content of
    the will.

    And often the witnesses have died before the testator. And the witnesses
    do not get a copy of the will that they have witnessed so they cannot be expected to remember what is in it - in fact, all they are entitled to
    do is witness a signature. Not to confirm that the testator appears to
    be of sound mind.

    I have wondered about that myself. How does having some random young secretaries at my solicitors who don't know me from Adam witness my
    signature make it any more likely that I am who I say I am?

    I can see the point when the witness is someone who has known me
    personally for decades but Wills seem to be one where the signing is
    invariably at your solicitors with two random witnesses chosen by them.

    I have variously witnessed signatures on contracts for people whom I
    have known for a very long time. Though for some of them I had never
    previously seen their official signature as used on formal documents.

    I have even seen documents prepared by expensive solicitors that got
    their client's full name wrong on the back page of a contract for
    signing. That made for an awkward moment when he saw it.

    --
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Walker@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Tue Mar 4 11:10:44 2025
    Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in news:vq6hqv$1qi0t$[email protected]:

    On 02/03/2025 13:48, The Todal wrote:
    On 02/03/2025 13:25, Peter Walker wrote:
    The Todal <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    The only protection really is that there must be witnesses to the
    signing. But they don't have to be living at the time the testator
    dies.

    Yes but that offers no protection from page substitution in a simple
    stapled paper will. The witness(es) have no right to view the
    content of the will.

    And often the witnesses have died before the testator. And the
    witnesses do not get a copy of the will that they have witnessed so
    they cannot be expected to remember what is in it - in fact, all they
    are entitled to do is witness a signature. Not to confirm that the
    testator appears to be of sound mind.

    I have wondered about that myself. How does having some random young secretaries at my solicitors who don't know me from Adam witness my
    signature make it any more likely that I am who I say I am?

    I can see the point when the witness is someone who has known me
    personally for decades but Wills seem to be one where the signing is invariably at your solicitors with two random witnesses chosen by
    them.


    At a sols I'd say the identity element is verified by their client identification protocols.

    The purpose of the witnesses there is not to attest to identity but that
    they saw you in the act of signing meaning that it cannot have been
    forged or made under duress.

    Outside the sols I see your point.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)