• Liz Truss "Cease *and* desist"

    From Jethro_uk@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 9 14:10:41 2025
    I read that Liz Truss has instructed lawyers to inform the whole world
    that she feels being called "incompetent" and accused of "crashing the
    economy" is damaging her reputation and amounting to a slanderous libel
    (is that a tautology ?).

    Obviously as an ongoing legal action, it would be inappropriate to
    comment on the specifics here in the event the matter goes before the
    court.

    However it would be interesting to discuss in the round if there is any precedent for an incompetent Prime Minister whose actions caused
    quantifiable economic harm to use legal threats to silence critics ?

    Link to the full letter.

    < https://bsky.app/profile/twright-law.bsky.social/post/3lfclmpczys2w >

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeff Layman@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jan 10 08:22:05 2025
    On 09/01/2025 14:10, Jethro_uk wrote:
    I read that Liz Truss has instructed lawyers to inform the whole world
    that she feels being called "incompetent" and accused of "crashing the economy" is damaging her reputation and amounting to a slanderous libel
    (is that a tautology ?).

    No, it's an oxymoron. Basically, slander = spoken and libel = written.

    As far as I can see the letter which you referenced below mentions only "defamatory statements".

    Obviously as an ongoing legal action, it would be inappropriate to
    comment on the specifics here in the event the matter goes before the
    court.

    However it would be interesting to discuss in the round if there is any precedent for an incompetent Prime Minister whose actions caused
    quantifiable economic harm to use legal threats to silence critics ?

    Link to the full letter.

    < https://bsky.app/profile/twright-law.bsky.social/post/3lfclmpczys2w >

    I wonder if Starmer will consider a reply along the lines of that used
    in Arkell vs Pressdram.

    --
    Jeff

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Brian@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Jan 10 09:20:15 2025
    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:
    I read that Liz Truss has instructed lawyers to inform the whole world
    that she feels being called "incompetent" and accused of "crashing the economy" is damaging her reputation and amounting to a slanderous libel
    (is that a tautology ?).

    Obviously as an ongoing legal action, it would be inappropriate to
    comment on the specifics here in the event the matter goes before the
    court.

    However it would be interesting to discuss in the round if there is any precedent for an incompetent Prime Minister whose actions caused
    quantifiable economic harm to use legal threats to silence critics ?

    Link to the full letter.

    < https://bsky.app/profile/twright-law.bsky.social/post/3lfclmpczys2w >



    I can’t help thinking she has made herself look foolish.

    That aside, surely those who claim her Government crashed the economy are simply expressing an opinion.

    What is more, similar opinions are normally expressed about political opponents. Reeves is currently in the firing line. Sunak spent time there,
    as did Brown, and countless others.

    Truss needs to accept, in politics, you get criticised. Often it is
    deserved. Even if your critic’s performance / behaviour is worse than
    yours, it may be hypocritical, but reacting like this is madness.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Todal@21:1/5 to Brian on Fri Jan 10 09:44:36 2025
    On 10/01/2025 09:20, Brian wrote:
    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:
    I read that Liz Truss has instructed lawyers to inform the whole world
    that she feels being called "incompetent" and accused of "crashing the
    economy" is damaging her reputation and amounting to a slanderous libel
    (is that a tautology ?).

    Obviously as an ongoing legal action, it would be inappropriate to
    comment on the specifics here in the event the matter goes before the
    court.

    However it would be interesting to discuss in the round if there is any
    precedent for an incompetent Prime Minister whose actions caused
    quantifiable economic harm to use legal threats to silence critics ?

    Link to the full letter.

    < https://bsky.app/profile/twright-law.bsky.social/post/3lfclmpczys2w >



    I can’t help thinking she has made herself look foolish.

    That aside, surely those who claim her Government crashed the economy are simply expressing an opinion.

    What is more, similar opinions are normally expressed about political opponents. Reeves is currently in the firing line. Sunak spent time there, as did Brown, and countless others.

    Truss needs to accept, in politics, you get criticised. Often it is
    deserved. Even if your critic’s performance / behaviour is worse than yours, it may be hypocritical, but reacting like this is madness.

    See also this analysis of the legal position. The letter from her
    solicitors is "glorious but seemingly hopeless" and badly written.

    She really has made a fool of herself.

    https://davidallengreen.com/2025/01/a-close-look-at-trusss-legal-threat-to-starmer-a-glorious-but-seemingly-hopeless-cease-and-desist-letter/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Todal@21:1/5 to The Todal on Fri Jan 10 09:52:25 2025
    On 10/01/2025 09:44, The Todal wrote:
    On 10/01/2025 09:20, Brian wrote:
    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:
    I read that Liz Truss has instructed lawyers to inform the whole world
    that she feels being called "incompetent" and accused of "crashing the
    economy" is damaging her reputation and amounting to a slanderous libel
    (is that a tautology ?).

    Obviously as an ongoing legal action, it would be inappropriate to
    comment on the specifics here in the event the matter goes before the
    court.

    However it would be interesting to discuss in the round if there is any
    precedent for an incompetent Prime Minister whose actions caused
    quantifiable economic harm to use legal threats to silence critics ?

    Link to the full letter.

    < https://bsky.app/profile/twright-law.bsky.social/post/3lfclmpczys2w >



    I can’t help thinking she has made herself look foolish.

    That aside, surely those who claim her Government crashed the economy are
    simply expressing an opinion.

    What is more, similar opinions are normally expressed about political
    opponents. Reeves is currently in the firing line.  Sunak spent time
    there,
    as did Brown, and countless others.

    Truss needs to accept, in politics, you get criticised. Often it is
    deserved. Even if your critic’s performance / behaviour is worse than
    yours, it may be hypocritical, but reacting like this is madness.

    See also this analysis of the legal position. The letter from her
    solicitors is "glorious but seemingly hopeless" and badly written.

    She really has made a fool of herself.

    https://davidallengreen.com/2025/01/a-close-look-at-trusss-legal-threat- to-starmer-a-glorious-but-seemingly-hopeless-cease-and-desist-letter/


    As a general point, defamation law is a highly specialist subject and it
    is best to consult a law firm with that expertise, rather than one that
    deals with general dispute resolution cases.

    Best not to quote the name of the firm or the names of its lawyers here.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Spike@21:1/5 to Brian on Fri Jan 10 11:05:50 2025
    Brian <[email protected]> wrote:
    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:
    I read that Liz Truss has instructed lawyers to inform the whole world
    that she feels being called "incompetent" and accused of "crashing the
    economy" is damaging her reputation and amounting to a slanderous libel
    (is that a tautology ?).

    Obviously as an ongoing legal action, it would be inappropriate to
    comment on the specifics here in the event the matter goes before the
    court.

    However it would be interesting to discuss in the round if there is any
    precedent for an incompetent Prime Minister whose actions caused
    quantifiable economic harm to use legal threats to silence critics ?

    Link to the full letter.

    < https://bsky.app/profile/twright-law.bsky.social/post/3lfclmpczys2w >

    I can’t help thinking she has made herself look foolish.

    That aside, surely those who claim her Government crashed the economy are simply expressing an opinion.

    Perhaps the problem with the C&D letter issued on behalf of Ms Truss is
    that it could be demonstrated that the economy is now in a worse state than under her leadership, and if she had ‘crashed the economy’ then the current incumbents have done worse, and are slinging mud in order to deflect
    attention away from their woes.



    What is more, similar opinions are normally expressed about political opponents. Reeves is currently in the firing line. Sunak spent time there, as did Brown, and countless others.

    Truss needs to accept, in politics, you get criticised. Often it is
    deserved. Even if your critic’s performance / behaviour is worse than yours, it may be hypocritical, but reacting like this is madness.

    --
    Spike

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David@21:1/5 to Jeff Layman on Fri Jan 10 11:54:33 2025
    On 10/01/2025 08:22, Jeff Layman wrote:
    On 09/01/2025 14:10, Jethro_uk wrote:
    I read that Liz Truss has instructed lawyers to inform the whole world
    that she feels being called "incompetent" and accused of "crashing the
    economy" is damaging her reputation and amounting to a slanderous libel
    (is that a tautology ?).

    No, it's an oxymoron. Basically, slander = spoken and libel = written.

    As far as I can see the letter which you referenced below mentions only "defamatory statements".

    Obviously as an ongoing legal action, it would be inappropriate to
    comment on the specifics here in the event the matter goes before the
    court.

    However it would be interesting to discuss in the round if there is any
    precedent for an incompetent Prime Minister whose actions caused
    quantifiable economic harm to use legal threats to silence critics ?

    Link to the full letter.

    < https://bsky.app/profile/twright-law.bsky.social/post/3lfclmpczys2w >

    I wonder if Starmer will consider a reply along the lines of that used
    in Arkell vs Pressdram.


    Can't Starmer simply claim Parliamentary Privilege?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jethro_uk@21:1/5 to Jeff Layman on Fri Jan 10 12:32:05 2025
    On Fri, 10 Jan 2025 08:22:05 +0000, Jeff Layman wrote:

    On 09/01/2025 14:10, Jethro_uk wrote:
    [quoted text muted]

    No, it's an oxymoron. Basically, slander = spoken and libel = written.

    As far as I can see the letter which you referenced below mentions only "defamatory statements".

    [quoted text muted]

    I wonder if Starmer will consider a reply along the lines of that used
    in Arkell vs Pressdram.

    Is there any onus on Starmer to reply ? Would ignoring the letter look
    bad when it comes to court ?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jethro_uk@21:1/5 to Brian on Fri Jan 10 12:33:00 2025
    On Fri, 10 Jan 2025 09:20:15 +0000, Brian wrote:

    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:
    [quoted text muted]
    I can’t help thinking she has made herself look foolish.

    or *more* foolish ?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Ottavio Caruso@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jan 10 12:37:29 2025
    Le 10/01/2025 à 09:20, Brian a écrit :
    I can’t help thinking she has made herself look foolish.

    How can one lose fame[1] if they don't have any?


    [1] By using the word "fame", I mean "positive fame".

    --
    Ottavio Caruso

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Roger Hayter@21:1/5 to The Todal on Fri Jan 10 12:18:19 2025
    On 10 Jan 2025 at 09:52:25 GMT, "The Todal" <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 10/01/2025 09:44, The Todal wrote:
    On 10/01/2025 09:20, Brian wrote:
    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:
    I read that Liz Truss has instructed lawyers to inform the whole world >>>> that she feels being called "incompetent" and accused of "crashing the >>>> economy" is damaging her reputation and amounting to a slanderous libel >>>> (is that a tautology ?).

    Obviously as an ongoing legal action, it would be inappropriate to
    comment on the specifics here in the event the matter goes before the
    court.

    However it would be interesting to discuss in the round if there is any >>>> precedent for an incompetent Prime Minister whose actions caused
    quantifiable economic harm to use legal threats to silence critics ?

    Link to the full letter.

    <https://bsky.app/profile/twright-law.bsky.social/post/3lfclmpczys2w > >>>>


    I can’t help thinking she has made herself look foolish.

    That aside, surely those who claim her Government crashed the economy are >>> simply expressing an opinion.

    What is more, similar opinions are normally expressed about political
    opponents. Reeves is currently in the firing line. Sunak spent time
    there,
    as did Brown, and countless others.

    Truss needs to accept, in politics, you get criticised. Often it is
    deserved. Even if your critic’s performance / behaviour is worse than
    yours, it may be hypocritical, but reacting like this is madness.

    See also this analysis of the legal position. The letter from her
    solicitors is "glorious but seemingly hopeless" and badly written.

    She really has made a fool of herself.

    https://davidallengreen.com/2025/01/a-close-look-at-trusss-legal-threat-
    to-starmer-a-glorious-but-seemingly-hopeless-cease-and-desist-letter/


    As a general point, defamation law is a highly specialist subject and it
    is best to consult a law firm with that expertise, rather than one that
    deals with general dispute resolution cases.

    Best not to quote the name of the firm or the names of its lawyers here.

    If a client should wish, despite advice, to put forward a claim unlikely to succeed, to what extent are his or her legal advisors professionally obliged
    to implement their wishes?

    --

    Roger Hayter

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ottavio Caruso@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jan 10 12:35:26 2025
    Le 09/01/2025 à 14:10, Jethro_uk a écrit :
    I read that Liz Truss has instructed lawyers to inform the whole world
    that she feels being called "incompetent" and accused of "crashing the economy" is damaging her reputation and amounting to a slanderous libel
    (is that a tautology ?).

    Aren't MPs and PM's protected from accusations of defamation and slander?

    I know that "elected officials" in Italy have absolute immunity from prosecution from slander and defamation charges. Is there anything
    similar in UK?

    --
    Ottavio Caruso

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Todal@21:1/5 to David on Fri Jan 10 14:02:30 2025
    On 10/01/2025 11:54, David wrote:
    On 10/01/2025 08:22, Jeff Layman wrote:
    On 09/01/2025 14:10, Jethro_uk wrote:
    I read that Liz Truss has instructed lawyers to inform the whole world
    that she feels being called "incompetent" and accused of "crashing the
    economy" is damaging her reputation and amounting to a slanderous libel
    (is that a tautology ?).

    No, it's an oxymoron. Basically, slander = spoken and libel = written.

    As far as I can see the letter which you referenced below mentions
    only "defamatory statements".

    Obviously as an ongoing legal action, it would be inappropriate to
    comment on the specifics here in the event the matter goes before the
    court.

    However it would be interesting to discuss in the round if there is any
    precedent for an incompetent Prime Minister whose actions caused
    quantifiable economic harm to use legal threats to silence critics ?

    Link to the full letter.

    < https://bsky.app/profile/twright-law.bsky.social/post/3lfclmpczys2w >

    I wonder if Starmer will consider a reply along the lines of that used
    in Arkell vs Pressdram.


    Can't Starmer simply claim Parliamentary Privilege?


    Only if his remarks were made in Parliament - I think he has regularly
    made the same point outside Parliament.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Todal@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jan 10 14:07:14 2025
    On 10/01/2025 12:32, Jethro_uk wrote:
    On Fri, 10 Jan 2025 08:22:05 +0000, Jeff Layman wrote:

    On 09/01/2025 14:10, Jethro_uk wrote:
    [quoted text muted]

    No, it's an oxymoron. Basically, slander = spoken and libel = written.

    As far as I can see the letter which you referenced below mentions only
    "defamatory statements".

    [quoted text muted]

    I wonder if Starmer will consider a reply along the lines of that used
    in Arkell vs Pressdram.

    Is there any onus on Starmer to reply ? Would ignoring the letter look
    bad when it comes to court ?


    I'd assume that any reply would be from his solicitors.

    Since the letter of claim does not comply with the relevant pre-action protocol, any penalty for failing to address the allegations is unlikely.

    It's a bit like the police caution which says, in criminal cases, "it
    may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something
    which you later rely on in court". If a defendant in civil proceedings
    fails to reveal his defence prior to proceedings but then produces an
    excellent defence in court, he might be penalised in costs.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Todal@21:1/5 to Roger Hayter on Fri Jan 10 14:08:40 2025
    On 10/01/2025 12:18, Roger Hayter wrote:
    On 10 Jan 2025 at 09:52:25 GMT, "The Todal" <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 10/01/2025 09:44, The Todal wrote:
    On 10/01/2025 09:20, Brian wrote:
    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:
    I read that Liz Truss has instructed lawyers to inform the whole world >>>>> that she feels being called "incompetent" and accused of "crashing the >>>>> economy" is damaging her reputation and amounting to a slanderous libel >>>>> (is that a tautology ?).

    Obviously as an ongoing legal action, it would be inappropriate to
    comment on the specifics here in the event the matter goes before the >>>>> court.

    However it would be interesting to discuss in the round if there is any >>>>> precedent for an incompetent Prime Minister whose actions caused
    quantifiable economic harm to use legal threats to silence critics ? >>>>>
    Link to the full letter.

    <https://bsky.app/profile/twright-law.bsky.social/post/3lfclmpczys2w > >>>>>


    I can’t help thinking she has made herself look foolish.

    That aside, surely those who claim her Government crashed the economy are >>>> simply expressing an opinion.

    What is more, similar opinions are normally expressed about political
    opponents. Reeves is currently in the firing line. Sunak spent time
    there,
    as did Brown, and countless others.

    Truss needs to accept, in politics, you get criticised. Often it is
    deserved. Even if your critic’s performance / behaviour is worse than >>>> yours, it may be hypocritical, but reacting like this is madness.

    See also this analysis of the legal position. The letter from her
    solicitors is "glorious but seemingly hopeless" and badly written.

    She really has made a fool of herself.

    https://davidallengreen.com/2025/01/a-close-look-at-trusss-legal-threat- >>> to-starmer-a-glorious-but-seemingly-hopeless-cease-and-desist-letter/


    As a general point, defamation law is a highly specialist subject and it
    is best to consult a law firm with that expertise, rather than one that
    deals with general dispute resolution cases.

    Best not to quote the name of the firm or the names of its lawyers here.

    If a client should wish, despite advice, to put forward a claim unlikely to succeed, to what extent are his or her legal advisors professionally obliged to implement their wishes?


    The lawyers are entitled to pursue a hopeless claim on behalf of a
    client provided it does not rely on allegations which are known to be
    dishonest or untrue. I wouldn't say "obliged" - they can refuse to act
    if they wish.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Todal@21:1/5 to Spike on Fri Jan 10 14:09:40 2025
    On 10/01/2025 11:05, Spike wrote:
    Brian <[email protected]> wrote:
    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:
    I read that Liz Truss has instructed lawyers to inform the whole world
    that she feels being called "incompetent" and accused of "crashing the
    economy" is damaging her reputation and amounting to a slanderous libel
    (is that a tautology ?).

    Obviously as an ongoing legal action, it would be inappropriate to
    comment on the specifics here in the event the matter goes before the
    court.

    However it would be interesting to discuss in the round if there is any
    precedent for an incompetent Prime Minister whose actions caused
    quantifiable economic harm to use legal threats to silence critics ?

    Link to the full letter.

    < https://bsky.app/profile/twright-law.bsky.social/post/3lfclmpczys2w >

    I can’t help thinking she has made herself look foolish.

    That aside, surely those who claim her Government crashed the economy are
    simply expressing an opinion.

    Perhaps the problem with the C&D letter issued on behalf of Ms Truss is
    that it could be demonstrated that the economy is now in a worse state than under her leadership, and if she had ‘crashed the economy’ then the current
    incumbents have done worse, and are slinging mud in order to deflect attention away from their woes.


    Why do you say that is a problem?





    What is more, similar opinions are normally expressed about political
    opponents. Reeves is currently in the firing line. Sunak spent time there, >> as did Brown, and countless others.

    Truss needs to accept, in politics, you get criticised. Often it is
    deserved. Even if your critic’s performance / behaviour is worse than
    yours, it may be hypocritical, but reacting like this is madness.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Todal@21:1/5 to Ottavio Caruso on Fri Jan 10 14:14:36 2025
    On 10/01/2025 12:35, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
    Le 09/01/2025 à 14:10, Jethro_uk a écrit :
    I read that Liz Truss has instructed lawyers to inform the whole world
    that she feels being called "incompetent" and accused of "crashing the
    economy" is damaging her reputation and amounting to a slanderous libel
    (is that a tautology ?).

    Aren't MPs and PM's protected from accusations of defamation and slander?

    No.


    I know that "elected officials" in Italy have absolute immunity from prosecution from slander and defamation charges. Is there anything
    similar in UK?


    Really? That's rather appalling.

    To pick one random example, Jeremy Corbyn whilst an MP and Labour Party
    leader was sued for defamation by Richard Millett.

    https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2020/1848.html

    quotes

    This is a claim for defamation arising out of a statement ("the
    Statement") made by the Defendant, The Right Honourable Jeremy Corbyn MP
    ("Mr. Corbyn") during an interview on the Andrew Marr Show ("the
    Programme") on 23 September 2018. The Programme was thereafter made
    available on BBC iPlayer and can still be viewed on that platform.

    At the time the Statement was made Mr. Corbyn was the leader of the
    Labour Party and led the Opposition.

    By this claim, issued on 10 June 2020, Mr. Millett alleges that the
    words spoken by Mr. Corbyn in the Programme (as underlined above) were defamatory of him and their publication caused and is likely to cause
    serious harm to his reputation.

    Mr. Millett was being accused of abusive behaviour in relation to a
    public speaker on a controversial topic. This is an accusation of a type
    of conduct which is contrary to the values of a modern democracy where
    freedom of speech is a cherished value. ..... To summarise my rulings on
    the preliminary issues, I find that the words complained of referred to
    Mr. Millett; that they bore a meaning defamatory of Mr. Millett as
    identified above; and I find that the allegations were factual.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Spike@21:1/5 to The Todal on Fri Jan 10 14:30:20 2025
    The Todal <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 10/01/2025 11:05, Spike wrote:
    Brian <[email protected]> wrote:
    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:
    I read that Liz Truss has instructed lawyers to inform the whole world >>>> that she feels being called "incompetent" and accused of "crashing the >>>> economy" is damaging her reputation and amounting to a slanderous libel >>>> (is that a tautology ?).

    Obviously as an ongoing legal action, it would be inappropriate to
    comment on the specifics here in the event the matter goes before the
    court.

    However it would be interesting to discuss in the round if there is any >>>> precedent for an incompetent Prime Minister whose actions caused
    quantifiable economic harm to use legal threats to silence critics ?

    Link to the full letter.

    < https://bsky.app/profile/twright-law.bsky.social/post/3lfclmpczys2w >

    I can’t help thinking she has made herself look foolish.

    That aside, surely those who claim her Government crashed the economy are >>> simply expressing an opinion.

    Perhaps the problem with the C&D letter issued on behalf of Ms Truss is
    that it could be demonstrated that the economy is now in a worse state than >> under her leadership, and if she had ‘crashed the economy’ then the current
    incumbents have done worse, and are slinging mud in order to deflect
    attention away from their woes.

    Why do you say that is a problem?

    Because it is, for TwoTier.

    What is more, similar opinions are normally expressed about political
    opponents. Reeves is currently in the firing line. Sunak spent time there, >>> as did Brown, and countless others.

    Truss needs to accept, in politics, you get criticised. Often it is
    deserved. Even if your critic’s performance / behaviour is worse than
    yours, it may be hypocritical, but reacting like this is madness.


    --
    Spike

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Todal@21:1/5 to Spike on Fri Jan 10 14:43:17 2025
    On 10/01/2025 14:30, Spike wrote:
    The Todal <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 10/01/2025 11:05, Spike wrote:
    Brian <[email protected]> wrote:
    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:
    I read that Liz Truss has instructed lawyers to inform the whole world >>>>> that she feels being called "incompetent" and accused of "crashing the >>>>> economy" is damaging her reputation and amounting to a slanderous libel >>>>> (is that a tautology ?).

    Obviously as an ongoing legal action, it would be inappropriate to
    comment on the specifics here in the event the matter goes before the >>>>> court.

    However it would be interesting to discuss in the round if there is any >>>>> precedent for an incompetent Prime Minister whose actions caused
    quantifiable economic harm to use legal threats to silence critics ? >>>>>
    Link to the full letter.

    < https://bsky.app/profile/twright-law.bsky.social/post/3lfclmpczys2w > >>>
    I can’t help thinking she has made herself look foolish.

    That aside, surely those who claim her Government crashed the economy are >>>> simply expressing an opinion.

    Perhaps the problem with the C&D letter issued on behalf of Ms Truss is
    that it could be demonstrated that the economy is now in a worse state than >>> under her leadership, and if she had ‘crashed the economy’ then the current
    incumbents have done worse, and are slinging mud in order to deflect
    attention away from their woes.

    Why do you say that is a problem?

    Because it is, for TwoTier.

    But it isn't really, is it? For decades, maybe centuries, it has been
    the custom for each political party in the UK to accuse the previous
    government of wrecking the economy. Whether there is any truth in the allegation is debateable - it often depends on which criteria you apply.

    Did Truss actually crash the economy in a manner which is different from anything done by other governments? Most people think so.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/sep/30/liz-truss-uk-economic-crisis

    quote

    Determined to quickly make her mark, Truss announced a radical new
    economic agenda of tax cuts and spending worth tens of billions of
    pounds funded by borrowing – the true total of which is still not known.

    The move, which appeared to also violate public spending curbs, tore
    apart the orthodoxy established by the three Conservative prime
    ministers who went before her during 12 years in power that tried to
    emphasise fiscal prudence.

    Truss’s drive for growth proved too radical for traders. The pound was
    sent spiralling to reach its lowest value against the US dollar, an embarrassing intervention from the central bank – the Bank of England –
    was made to avoid a raid on pension funds, and rebukes from foreign
    observers, including the International Monetary Fund (IMF), were swift.

    Government bonds, known as gilts, had also seen a sell-off. And markets
    were predicting a sharp increase in interest rates, as the Bank of
    England stepped in to offset the inflationary impact of the plans.By
    Tuesday, almost 300 mortgage deals had been taken off the market as
    lenders reassessed the outlook for rates. Estate agents were reporting
    house purchase chains collapsing, as lenders and buyers pulled out.

    As the crisis deepened, the vicious increase in yields, which had
    already gone up sharply in recent months, was wreaking havoc for pension
    funds.

    Amid fears that panic-selling of bonds would create a self-fulfilling
    “doom loop”, and some funds warning they were in effect at risk of
    becoming insolvent, the Bank rode to the rescue.




    What is more, similar opinions are normally expressed about political
    opponents. Reeves is currently in the firing line. Sunak spent time there,
    as did Brown, and countless others.

    Truss needs to accept, in politics, you get criticised. Often it is
    deserved. Even if your critic’s performance / behaviour is worse than >>>> yours, it may be hypocritical, but reacting like this is madness.



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Spike@21:1/5 to The Todal on Fri Jan 10 15:28:55 2025
    The Todal <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 10/01/2025 14:30, Spike wrote:
    The Todal <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 10/01/2025 11:05, Spike wrote:
    Brian <[email protected]> wrote:
    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:
    I read that Liz Truss has instructed lawyers to inform the whole world >>>>>> that she feels being called "incompetent" and accused of "crashing the >>>>>> economy" is damaging her reputation and amounting to a slanderous libel >>>>>> (is that a tautology ?).

    Obviously as an ongoing legal action, it would be inappropriate to >>>>>> comment on the specifics here in the event the matter goes before the >>>>>> court.

    However it would be interesting to discuss in the round if there is any >>>>>> precedent for an incompetent Prime Minister whose actions caused
    quantifiable economic harm to use legal threats to silence critics ? >>>>>>
    Link to the full letter.

    < https://bsky.app/profile/twright-law.bsky.social/post/3lfclmpczys2w > >>>>
    I can’t help thinking she has made herself look foolish.

    That aside, surely those who claim her Government crashed the economy are >>>>> simply expressing an opinion.

    Perhaps the problem with the C&D letter issued on behalf of Ms Truss is >>>> that it could be demonstrated that the economy is now in a worse state than
    under her leadership, and if she had ‘crashed the economy’ then the current
    incumbents have done worse, and are slinging mud in order to deflect
    attention away from their woes.

    Why do you say that is a problem?

    Because it is, for TwoTier.

    But it isn't really, is it? For decades, maybe centuries, it has been
    the custom for each political party in the UK to accuse the previous government of wrecking the economy. Whether there is any truth in the allegation is debateable - it often depends on which criteria you apply.

    Did Truss actually crash the economy in a manner which is different from anything done by other governments? Most people think so.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/sep/30/liz-truss-uk-economic-crisis

    quote

    Determined to quickly make her mark, Truss announced a radical new
    economic agenda of tax cuts and spending worth tens of billions of
    pounds funded by borrowing – the true total of which is still not known.

    […]

    As the crisis deepened, the vicious increase in yields, which had
    already gone up sharply in recent months, was wreaking havoc for pension funds.

    Amid fears that panic-selling of bonds would create a self-fulfilling
    “doom loop”, and some funds warning they were in effect at risk of becoming insolvent, the Bank rode to the rescue.

    The extant state of affairs is that the current government’ economic
    strategy has resulted in bond investors seeing little reason to hold longer-dated UK bonds, and are selling them. This had pushed up interest
    rates with consequent concern for mortgage rates. It has also all but ended
    the hope of a surplus from which the government hoped to invest in
    long-term projects. This is known as a vicious circle, or ‘doom loop’ to use a term used to refer to the Truss era and mentioned above. The Truss
    issue was short-lived, this one will run and run.

    --
    Spike

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Pancho@21:1/5 to The Todal on Fri Jan 10 16:28:08 2025
    On 1/10/25 14:43, The Todal wrote:
    On 10/01/2025 14:30, Spike wrote:
    The Todal <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 10/01/2025 11:05, Spike wrote:
    Brian <[email protected]> wrote:
    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:
    I read that Liz Truss has instructed lawyers to inform the whole
    world
    that she feels being called "incompetent" and accused of "crashing >>>>>> the
    economy" is damaging her reputation and amounting to a slanderous
    libel
    (is that a tautology ?).

    Obviously as an ongoing legal action, it would be inappropriate to >>>>>> comment on the specifics here in the event the matter goes before the >>>>>> court.

    However it would be interesting to discuss in the round if there
    is any
    precedent for an incompetent Prime Minister whose actions caused
    quantifiable economic harm to use legal threats to silence critics ? >>>>>>
    Link to the full letter.

    < https://bsky.app/profile/twright-law.bsky.social/
    post/3lfclmpczys2w >

    I can’t help thinking she has made herself look foolish.

    That aside, surely those who claim her Government crashed the
    economy are
    simply expressing an opinion.

    Perhaps the problem with the C&D letter issued on behalf of Ms Truss is >>>> that it could be demonstrated that the economy is now in a worse
    state than
    under her leadership, and if she had ‘crashed the economy’ then the >>>> current
    incumbents have done worse, and are slinging mud in order to deflect
    attention away from their woes.

    Why do you say that is a problem?

    Because it is, for TwoTier.

    But it isn't really, is it? For decades, maybe centuries, it has been
    the custom for each political party in the UK to accuse the previous government of wrecking the economy.  Whether there is any truth in the allegation is debateable - it often depends on which criteria you apply.

    Did Truss actually crash the economy in a manner which is different from anything done by other governments? Most people think so.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/sep/30/liz-truss-uk-economic-
    crisis

    quote

    Determined to quickly make her mark, Truss announced a radical new
    economic agenda of tax cuts and spending worth tens of billions of
    pounds funded by borrowing – the true total of which is still not known.

    The move, which appeared to also violate public spending curbs, tore
    apart the orthodoxy established by the three Conservative prime
    ministers who went before her during 12 years in power that tried to emphasise fiscal prudence.

    Truss’s drive for growth proved too radical for traders. The pound was
    sent spiralling to reach its lowest value against the US dollar, an embarrassing intervention from the central bank – the Bank of England – was made to avoid a raid on pension funds, and rebukes from foreign observers, including the International Monetary Fund (IMF), were swift.

    Government bonds, known as gilts, had also seen a sell-off. And markets
    were predicting a sharp increase in interest rates, as the Bank of
    England stepped in to offset the inflationary impact of the plans.By
    Tuesday, almost 300 mortgage deals had been taken off the market as
    lenders reassessed the outlook for rates. Estate agents were reporting
    house purchase chains collapsing, as lenders and buyers pulled out.

    As the crisis deepened, the vicious increase in yields, which had
    already gone up sharply in recent months, was wreaking havoc for pension funds.


    That is a market adjustment.

    Amid fears that panic-selling of bonds would create a self-fulfilling
    “doom loop”, and some funds warning they were in effect at risk of becoming insolvent, the Bank rode to the rescue.


    That is funds not being managed/regulated properly.

    At the end of the day she didn't really do anything. I think it is a bit
    unfair to blame her for long term consequences.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ottavio Caruso@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jan 10 16:34:59 2025
    Le 10/01/2025 à 14:14, The Todal a écrit :
    On 10/01/2025 12:35, Ottavio Caruso wrote:


    I know that "elected officials" in Italy have absolute immunity from
    prosecution from slander and defamation charges. Is there anything
    similar in UK?


    Really? That's rather appalling.


    It's in the Italian constitution to prevent the government from
    arresting opposition MP's, which was what Mussolini did earlier.

    --
    Ottavio Caruso

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Brian@21:1/5 to Spike on Fri Jan 10 18:12:06 2025
    On 10/01/2025 11:05, Spike wrote:
    Brian <[email protected]> wrote:
    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:
    I read that Liz Truss has instructed lawyers to inform the whole world
    that she feels being called "incompetent" and accused of "crashing the
    economy" is damaging her reputation and amounting to a slanderous libel
    (is that a tautology ?).

    Obviously as an ongoing legal action, it would be inappropriate to
    comment on the specifics here in the event the matter goes before the
    court.

    However it would be interesting to discuss in the round if there is any
    precedent for an incompetent Prime Minister whose actions caused
    quantifiable economic harm to use legal threats to silence critics ?

    Link to the full letter.

    < https://bsky.app/profile/twright-law.bsky.social/post/3lfclmpczys2w >

    I can’t help thinking she has made herself look foolish.

    That aside, surely those who claim her Government crashed the economy are
    simply expressing an opinion.

    Perhaps the problem with the C&D letter issued on behalf of Ms Truss is
    that it could be demonstrated that the economy is now in a worse state than under her leadership, and if she had ‘crashed the economy’ then the current
    incumbents have done worse, and are slinging mud in order to deflect attention away from their woes.

    That would be decided on the basis of whether the economy under Truss
    was in a worse state than now.


    I suspect some would argue it isn't (I'm not one of them). Just today
    two of Reeves allies tried to convince the Commons that things weren't
    nearly as bad as it seems, quite the converse ;-)

    There is a very amusing report in the Telegraph.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From JNugent@21:1/5 to Ottavio Caruso on Fri Jan 10 19:59:51 2025
    On 10/01/2025 12:35 pm, Ottavio Caruso wrote:

    Le 09/01/2025 à 14:10, Jethro_uk a écrit :

    I read that Liz Truss has instructed lawyers to inform the whole world
    that she feels being called "incompetent" and accused of "crashing the
    economy" is damaging her reputation and amounting to a slanderous libel
    (is that a tautology ?).

    Aren't MPs and PM's protected from accusations of defamation and slander?

    I know that "elected officials" in Italy have absolute immunity from prosecution from slander and defamation charges. Is there anything
    similar in UK?

    Whilst speaking in the relevant House, yes.

    Not out on the street.

    Even an ordinary citizen has some immunity whilst giving evidence in
    court. Hence the famous case some decades ago of a campaigner who
    deliberately failed to pay domestic rates / Community Charge / Council
    Tax in order to be summonsed to the local mags and to be sworn in to
    give evidence.

    Wish I could remember more details - the case might have involved the
    death of one of the person't relatives.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From JNugent@21:1/5 to The Todal on Fri Jan 10 20:01:51 2025
    On 10/01/2025 02:14 pm, The Todal wrote:
    On 10/01/2025 12:35, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
    Le 09/01/2025 à 14:10, Jethro_uk a écrit :
    I read that Liz Truss has instructed lawyers to inform the whole world
    that she feels being called "incompetent" and accused of "crashing the
    economy" is damaging her reputation and amounting to a slanderous libel
    (is that a tautology ?).

    Aren't MPs and PM's protected from accusations of defamation and slander?

    No.


    I know that "elected officials" in Italy have absolute immunity from
    prosecution from slander and defamation charges. Is there anything
    similar in UK?


    Really? That's rather appalling.

    To pick one random example, Jeremy Corbyn whilst an MP and Labour Party leader was sued for defamation by Richard Millett.

    https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2020/1848.html

    quotes

    This is a claim for defamation arising out of a statement ("the
    Statement") made by the Defendant, The Right Honourable Jeremy Corbyn MP ("Mr. Corbyn") during an interview on the Andrew Marr Show ("the
    Programme") on 23 September 2018. The Programme was thereafter made
    available on BBC iPlayer and can still be viewed on that platform.

    At the time the Statement was made Mr. Corbyn was the leader of the
    Labour Party and led the Opposition.

    By this claim, issued on 10 June 2020, Mr. Millett alleges that the
    words spoken by Mr. Corbyn in the Programme (as underlined above) were defamatory of him and their publication caused and is likely to cause
    serious harm to his reputation.

    Mr. Millett was being accused of abusive behaviour in relation to a
    public speaker on a controversial topic. This is an accusation of a type
    of conduct which is contrary to the values of a modern democracy where freedom of speech is a cherished value. ..... To summarise my rulings on
    the preliminary issues, I find that the words complained of referred to
    Mr. Millett; that they bore a meaning defamatory of Mr. Millett as
    identified above; and I find that the allegations were factual.

    He'd have been safe if he'd uttered the alleged defamation in the House.
    Or even while giving evidence (in any case, ralated or unrelated) in court.



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Roland Perry@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jan 11 08:57:52 2025
    In message <[email protected]>, at 14:08:40 on Fri, 10
    Jan 2025, The Todal <[email protected]> remarked:

    If a client should wish, despite advice, to put forward a claim
    unlikely to succeed, to what extent are his or her legal advisors >>professionally obliged to implement their wishes?

    The lawyers are entitled to pursue a hopeless claim on behalf of a
    client provided it does not rely on allegations which are known to be >dishonest or untrue. I wouldn't say "obliged" - they can refuse to act
    if they wish.

    If it's a defamation claim it's possible they'd ask for a substantial
    (could be six-figure) sum in advance.
    --
    Roland Perry

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeff@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jan 11 10:35:42 2025
    Can't Starmer simply claim Parliamentary Privilege?


    Not for things said outside of Parliament.
    Jeff

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jethro_uk@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jan 11 15:24:38 2025
    Following on from this, I have seen countless memes* on my FB feed
    repeating "Liz Truss crashed the economy" in increasingly humorous
    settings. My own favourite (thus far) being a sign towed by an aeroplane (probably AI generated or modified).

    Is there anything interesting legally about this development ?

    Does the fact that Meta has now declared that Facebook is fact-free have
    any bearing on the matter ?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David@21:1/5 to Roland Perry on Sun Jan 12 06:06:33 2025
    On 11/01/2025 08:57, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <[email protected]>, at 14:08:40 on Fri, 10
    Jan 2025, The Todal <[email protected]> remarked:

     If a client should wish, despite advice, to put forward a claim
    unlikely to  succeed, to what extent are his or her legal advisors
    professionally obliged  to implement their wishes?

    The lawyers are entitled to pursue a hopeless claim on behalf of a
    client provided it does not rely on allegations which are known to be
    dishonest or untrue. I wouldn't say "obliged" - they can refuse to act
    if they wish.

    If it's a defamation claim it's possible they'd ask for a substantial
    (could be six-figure) sum in advance.

    I wonder how much she would actually get awarded if it went to court. A
    nominal £1?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mark Goodge@21:1/5 to David on Sun Jan 12 13:28:23 2025
    On Sun, 12 Jan 2025 06:06:33 +0000, David <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 11/01/2025 08:57, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <[email protected]>, at 14:08:40 on Fri, 10
    Jan 2025, The Todal <[email protected]> remarked:

    �If a client should wish, despite advice, to put forward a claim
    unlikely to� succeed, to what extent are his or her legal advisors
    professionally obliged� to implement their wishes?

    The lawyers are entitled to pursue a hopeless claim on behalf of a
    client provided it does not rely on allegations which are known to be
    dishonest or untrue. I wouldn't say "obliged" - they can refuse to act
    if they wish.

    If it's a defamation claim it's possible they'd ask for a substantial
    (could be six-figure) sum in advance.

    I wonder how much she would actually get awarded if it went to court. A >nominal �1?

    I don't think she'd even come close to winning.

    Mark

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Roland Perry@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jan 12 14:10:57 2025
    In message <vlvm59$11rc6$[email protected]>, at 06:06:33 on Sun, 12 Jan
    2025, David <[email protected]> remarked:
    On 11/01/2025 08:57, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <[email protected]>, at 14:08:40 on Fri, 10
    Jan 2025, The Todal <[email protected]> remarked:

    �If a client should wish, despite advice, to put forward a claim >>>>unlikely to� succeed, to what extent are his or her legal advisors >>>>professionally obliged� to implement their wishes?

    The lawyers are entitled to pursue a hopeless claim on behalf of a >>>client provided it does not rely on allegations which are known to be >>>dishonest or untrue. I wouldn't say "obliged" - they can refuse to
    act if they wish.

    If it's a defamation claim it's possible they'd ask for a
    substantial (could be six-figure) sum in advance.

    I wonder how much she would actually get awarded if it went to court. A >nominal �1?

    And no costs? That's what the lawyers are worried about, and hence want
    theirs prepaid.
    --
    Roland Perry

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David@21:1/5 to Roland Perry on Sun Jan 12 17:18:46 2025
    On 12/01/2025 14:10, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <vlvm59$11rc6$[email protected]>, at 06:06:33 on Sun, 12 Jan
    2025, David <[email protected]> remarked:
    On 11/01/2025 08:57, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <[email protected]>, at 14:08:40 on Fri, 10
    Jan 2025, The Todal <[email protected]> remarked:

     If a client should wish, despite advice, to put forward a claim
    unlikely to  succeed, to what extent are his or her legal advisors
    professionally obliged  to implement their wishes?

    The lawyers are entitled to pursue a hopeless claim on behalf of a
    client provided it does not rely on allegations which are known to
    be dishonest or untrue. I wouldn't say "obliged" - they can refuse
    to act  if they wish.

     If it's a defamation claim it's possible they'd ask for a
    substantial  (could be six-figure) sum in advance.

    I wonder how much she would actually get awarded if it went to court.
    A nominal £1?

    And no costs? That's what the lawyers are worried about, and hence want theirs prepaid.

    No costs.

    Or perhaps a nice twist would be that if the court finds Starmer not guilty/didn't have a case to answer and that she could be ordered to pay Stamer's costs for bringing a vexatious action/wasting the court's time.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jon Ribbens@21:1/5 to David on Sun Jan 12 19:56:04 2025
    On 2025-01-12, David <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 12/01/2025 14:10, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <vlvm59$11rc6$[email protected]>, at 06:06:33 on Sun, 12 Jan
    2025, David <[email protected]> remarked:
    On 11/01/2025 08:57, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <[email protected]>, at 14:08:40 on Fri, 10
    Jan 2025, The Todal <[email protected]> remarked:

     If a client should wish, despite advice, to put forward a claim
    unlikely to  succeed, to what extent are his or her legal advisors >>>>>> professionally obliged  to implement their wishes?

    The lawyers are entitled to pursue a hopeless claim on behalf of a
    client provided it does not rely on allegations which are known to
    be dishonest or untrue. I wouldn't say "obliged" - they can refuse
    to act  if they wish.

     If it's a defamation claim it's possible they'd ask for a
    substantial  (could be six-figure) sum in advance.

    I wonder how much she would actually get awarded if it went to court.
    A nominal £1?

    And no costs? That's what the lawyers are worried about, and hence want
    theirs prepaid.

    No costs.

    Or perhaps a nice twist would be that if the court finds Starmer not guilty/didn't have a case to answer and that she could be ordered to pay Stamer's costs for bringing a vexatious action/wasting the court's time.

    That's not a "twist", that's the standard UK procedure - the losing
    party usually pays (most of) the costs of the winning party. It doesn't
    require any finding that the action was vexatious or a waste of time.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jethro_uk@21:1/5 to Jon Ribbens on Mon Jan 13 09:44:28 2025
    On Sun, 12 Jan 2025 19:56:04 +0000, Jon Ribbens wrote:

    On 2025-01-12, David <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 12/01/2025 14:10, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <vlvm59$11rc6$[email protected]>, at 06:06:33 on Sun, 12 Jan
    2025, David <[email protected]> remarked:
    On 11/01/2025 08:57, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <[email protected]>, at 14:08:40 on Fri,
    10 Jan 2025, The Todal <[email protected]> remarked:

     If a client should wish, despite advice, to put forward a claim >>>>>>> unlikely to  succeed, to what extent are his or her legal advisors >>>>>>> professionally obliged  to implement their wishes?

    The lawyers are entitled to pursue a hopeless claim on behalf of a >>>>>> client provided it does not rely on allegations which are known to >>>>>> be dishonest or untrue. I wouldn't say "obliged" - they can refuse >>>>>> to act  if they wish.

     If it's a defamation claim it's possible they'd ask for a
    substantial  (could be six-figure) sum in advance.

    I wonder how much she would actually get awarded if it went to court.
    A nominal £1?

    And no costs? That's what the lawyers are worried about, and hence
    want theirs prepaid.

    No costs.

    Or perhaps a nice twist would be that if the court finds Starmer not
    guilty/didn't have a case to answer and that she could be ordered to
    pay Stamer's costs for bringing a vexatious action/wasting the court's
    time.

    That's not a "twist", that's the standard UK procedure - the losing
    party usually pays (most of) the costs of the winning party. It doesn't require any finding that the action was vexatious or a waste of time.

    "Usually"

    It's not unknown for some judges to make each side pay their own costs.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jon Ribbens@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Mon Jan 13 15:05:07 2025
    On 2025-01-13, Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sun, 12 Jan 2025 19:56:04 +0000, Jon Ribbens wrote:

    On 2025-01-12, David <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 12/01/2025 14:10, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <vlvm59$11rc6$[email protected]>, at 06:06:33 on Sun, 12 Jan
    2025, David <[email protected]> remarked:
    On 11/01/2025 08:57, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <[email protected]>, at 14:08:40 on Fri, >>>>>> 10 Jan 2025, The Todal <[email protected]> remarked:

     If a client should wish, despite advice, to put forward a claim >>>>>>>> unlikely to  succeed, to what extent are his or her legal advisors >>>>>>>> professionally obliged  to implement their wishes?

    The lawyers are entitled to pursue a hopeless claim on behalf of a >>>>>>> client provided it does not rely on allegations which are known to >>>>>>> be dishonest or untrue. I wouldn't say "obliged" - they can refuse >>>>>>> to act  if they wish.

     If it's a defamation claim it's possible they'd ask for a
    substantial  (could be six-figure) sum in advance.

    I wonder how much she would actually get awarded if it went to court. >>>>> A nominal £1?

    And no costs? That's what the lawyers are worried about, and hence
    want theirs prepaid.

    No costs.

    Or perhaps a nice twist would be that if the court finds Starmer not
    guilty/didn't have a case to answer and that she could be ordered to
    pay Stamer's costs for bringing a vexatious action/wasting the court's
    time.

    That's not a "twist", that's the standard UK procedure - the losing
    party usually pays (most of) the costs of the winning party. It doesn't
    require any finding that the action was vexatious or a waste of time.

    "Usually"

    It's not unknown for some judges to make each side pay their own costs.

    I didn't include that word by accident ;-)

    My point was mainly that making the losing party pay costs is not some
    sort of unusual extra punishment only handed down to people who lost particularly badly, it is bog standard. (And indeed this is one way in
    which the English legal system is better than, say, the US system, which
    as I understand it does work that way.)

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