• Fire retardant ,materials and old furniture.

    From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Sun Apr 27 18:09:43 2025
    Chapter and verse

    https://www.firesafe.org.uk/furniture-and-furnishings-fire-safety-regulations-19881989-and-1993/

    --
    "Nature does not give up the winter because people dislike the cold."

    ― Confucius

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  • From Jeff Layman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Apr 27 18:28:21 2025
    On 27/04/2025 18:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    Chapter and verse

    https://www.firesafe.org.uk/furniture-and-furnishings-fire-safety-regulations-19881989-and-1993/

    That's useful. Filed for reference.

    If I put my pedant hat on, isn't point 1 of the summary worded oddly:
    "Filling materials must meet specified ignition requirements"

    Shouldn't that be "Filling materials must meet specified non-ignition requirements"?

    --
    Jeff

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  • From Davey@21:1/5 to Jeff Layman on Mon Apr 28 19:16:53 2025
    On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 18:28:21 +0100
    Jeff Layman <[email protected]d> wrote:

    On 27/04/2025 18:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    Chapter and verse

    https://www.firesafe.org.uk/furniture-and-furnishings-fire-safety-regulations-19881989-and-1993/


    That's useful. Filed for reference.

    If I put my pedant hat on, isn't point 1 of the summary worded oddly: "Filling materials must meet specified ignition requirements"

    Shouldn't that be "Filling materials must meet specified non-ignition requirements"?


    That's like Flammable and Inflammable.

    --
    Davey.

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  • From Brian@21:1/5 to Jeff Layman on Tue Apr 29 18:32:27 2025
    Jeff Layman <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On 27/04/2025 18:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    Chapter and verse

    https://www.firesafe.org.uk/furniture-and-furnishings-fire-safety-regulations-19881989-and-1993/

    That's useful. Filed for reference.

    If I put my pedant hat on, isn't point 1 of the summary worded oddly: "Filling materials must meet specified ignition requirements"

    Shouldn't that be "Filling materials must meet specified non-ignition requirements"?


    I vaguely recall something one of my chemistry teachers said - 50 years ago
    or so.

    Basically, everything will burn - if you get it hot enough.

    Of course, in practical terms, the materials used in furnishing need not to ignite at the kind of temperatures they are likely to be exposed to. I
    assume, in broad terms, that is what is specified in the document above.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Brian on Tue Apr 29 21:02:04 2025
    On 29/04/2025 19:32, Brian wrote:
    Jeff Layman <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On 27/04/2025 18:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    Chapter and verse

    https://www.firesafe.org.uk/furniture-and-furnishings-fire-safety-regulations-19881989-and-1993/

    That's useful. Filed for reference.

    If I put my pedant hat on, isn't point 1 of the summary worded oddly:
    "Filling materials must meet specified ignition requirements"

    Shouldn't that be "Filling materials must meet specified non-ignition
    requirements"?


    I vaguely recall something one of my chemistry teachers said - 50 years ago or so.

    Basically, everything will burn - if you get it hot enough.

    Technically no. Burning is a self sustaining exothermic chemical
    reaction that usually involves oxygen, either from the air or generated
    by the inflammable materials itself (like Li-ion batteries)

    Other things melt, decomposed chemically, vaporise or turn to plasma but
    they don't burn..

    Of course, in practical terms, the materials used in furnishing need not to ignite at the kind of temperatures they are likely to be exposed to. I assume, in broad terms, that is what is specified in the document above.

    The big push came IIRC when people were dying of smoke inhalation of
    plastic foam fillings. And you got flashovers from that smoke as well
    which wer explosive in natiure.

    Things like horsehair are not so bad. Nor are feathers.




    --
    β€œIt is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
    making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
    who pay no price for being wrong.”

    Thomas Sowell

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  • From Theo@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Apr 30 12:03:10 2025
    The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On 29/04/2025 19:32, Brian wrote:
    Jeff Layman <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On 27/04/2025 18:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    Chapter and verse

    https://www.firesafe.org.uk/furniture-and-furnishings-fire-safety-regulations-19881989-and-1993/

    That's useful. Filed for reference.

    If I put my pedant hat on, isn't point 1 of the summary worded oddly:
    "Filling materials must meet specified ignition requirements"

    Shouldn't that be "Filling materials must meet specified non-ignition
    requirements"?


    I vaguely recall something one of my chemistry teachers said - 50 years ago or so.

    Basically, everything will burn - if you get it hot enough.

    Technically no. Burning is a self sustaining exothermic chemical
    reaction that usually involves oxygen, either from the air or generated
    by the inflammable materials itself (like Li-ion batteries)

    Other things melt, decomposed chemically, vaporise or turn to plasma but
    they don't burn..

    Indeed.

    Manufactured stuff often burns because it's composed of long carbon chains
    from either natural or oil-based origin. Apply enough heat and oxygen and
    it because energetically advantageous to break those chains, down to CO2 ultimately.

    But take say silica sand - SiO2. It's got enough oxygen already thanks very much and applying heat is not going to change that - it'll melt and
    vapourise but won't burn as there's no energetically advantageous bonds to break.

    Of course, in practical terms, the materials used in furnishing need not to ignite at the kind of temperatures they are likely to be exposed to. I assume, in broad terms, that is what is specified in the document above.

    The big push came IIRC when people were dying of smoke inhalation of
    plastic foam fillings. And you got flashovers from that smoke as well
    which wer explosive in natiure.

    I think you can still get those from the foam materials, but the fire retardants mean the fire is not self-sustaining. If you have an external source of heat that keeps on being applied (eg a blowtorch or a furnace)
    then you'll decompose the foam into toxic/flammable gases, but it's much
    harder to get that started with a discarded cigarette than it previously
    was.

    Things like horsehair are not so bad. Nor are feathers.

    Being a natural product the compounds are different. You can still get flashover from gases from wood pyrolysis, but it takes more than with
    oil-based products. OTOH manufactured fire retardants may work better than
    the fire retarding properties of natural fibres.

    Theo

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  • From Andy Burns@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu May 1 08:59:17 2025
    The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Chapter and verse

    https://www.firesafe.org.uk/furniture-and-furnishings-fire-safety- regulations-19881989-and-1993/
    Changes coming in October

    <https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2025/531/made#Legislation-ExNote>

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