Some friends of ours are buying a house, and out of interest I looked up
the recommendations of the Environmental Performance Certificate, available on the .gov web site and quoted below. The house is a two-bedroom end-of-terrace, with no gas supply.
Who in their right mind is going to spend £4000-£6000 on floor insulation, which will have a payback period of 40 to 60 years?
Or install solar water heating for a similar cost and payback period?
Cavity wall insulation at 2 to 6 years payback is feasible, as is high heat retention storage heaters at 2-4 years.
Solar panels at 7 to 10 years is getting to be an outlier.
Star saving and payback is improvement of the hot water tank insulation, payback in 6 to 12 weeks.
This whole charade seems predicated on impelling people to put money into
the solar rip-off industry, for no real benefit to the owners.
If this was my house, I’d insulate the hot water tank, and think about CWI, being aware of the issues surrounding that, and put in the storage heaters, for a cost of 4K. I’d then invest the £17k saved, the interest paying for the ‘losses’ of not installing the floor insulation and solar fancies.
Basically the overall problem with the EPC is it's trying to do too much
with too little. Buyers want to know facts like what kind of boiler there is, whether the walls are solid or cavity and how much the place will cost
to heat.
On 26/01/2025 10:09, Theo wrote:
Basically the overall problem with the EPC is it's trying to do too much with too little. Buyers want to know facts like what kind of boiler there is, whether the walls are solid or cavity and how much the place will cost to heat.
Buyers can do a web search on the house energy use for the past year -
as mentioned a few weeks back on this newsgroup.
alan_m wrote:There is a central agency (or separate ones for elec and gas) which
Buyers can do a web search on the house energy use for the past year -
as mentioned a few weeks back on this newsgroup.
This surely only works if your neighbours have gone to the trouble of entering the data somewhere.
On 26/01/2025 10:09, Theo wrote:
Basically the overall problem with the EPC is it's trying to do too much with too little. Buyers want to know facts like what kind of boiler there is, whether the walls are solid or cavity and how much the place will cost to heat.
Buyers can do a web search on the house energy use for the past year -
as mentioned a few weeks back on this newsgroup.
Out of interest I checked my energy consumption of my two adjoining neighbours (terrace houses). One neighbour who is end of terrace used
25% more than me while the other was approx the same. However I wasn't necessary comparing like with like as I don't know what temperatures
they like to heat the house to. I do know that both have modern
condensing gas boilers, no solar or whole house batteries.
alan_m <[email protected]> wrote:
On 26/01/2025 10:09, Theo wrote:
Basically the overall problem with the EPC is it's trying to do too much >>> with too little. Buyers want to know facts like what kind of boiler there >>> is, whether the walls are solid or cavity and how much the place will cost >>> to heat.
Buyers can do a web search on the house energy use for the past year -
as mentioned a few weeks back on this newsgroup.
True, but it doesn't give a good picture because you don't know usage patterns. Do they run the heating at a constant 25C, or do they run it for one hour a day because they can't afford any more? Do they have 5 teenage girls having two showers a day, or a single person having a bath once a
week?
Out of interest I checked my energy consumption of my two adjoining
neighbours (terrace houses). One neighbour who is end of terrace used
25% more than me while the other was approx the same. However I wasn't
necessary comparing like with like as I don't know what temperatures
they like to heat the house to. I do know that both have modern
condensing gas boilers, no solar or whole house batteries.
Exactly. And that comparison works because you know the houses are similar, so you can factor out things you know to be the same. But if there are two houses with more differences (eg a semi and a detached) you can't tell
what's due to the fabric and what's due to the behaviour.
It's better than nothing to have usage figures, but the idea of the EPC is
to be standardised so you can compare on a like for like basis.
I just looked at my mid-terrace old house - the new owners use twice
as much electricity . They've got 2 children
I'm baffled by the electricity consumption.
RJH wrote:
I just looked at my mid-terrace old house - the new owners use twice
as much electricity . They've got 2 children
I'm baffled by the electricity consumption.
55" baby-sitter?
Chris Green wrote:
alan_m wrote:There is a central agency (or separate ones for elec and gas) which
Buyers can do a web search on the house energy use for the past year -
as mentioned a few weeks back on this newsgroup.
This surely only works if your neighbours have gone to the trouble of
entering the data somewhere.
knows every household's consumption, presumably reported by your energy
co, in my case it agrees exactly with the annual consumption on my
bills, it's used by comparison sites etc
Andy Burns <[email protected]> wrote:
RJH wrote:
I just looked at my mid-terrace old house - the new owners use twice
as much electricity . They've got 2 children
I'm baffled by the electricity consumption.
55" baby-sitter?
EV?
Gaming PC?
Electric cooking?
On 26/01/2025 12:09, Theo wrote:
Andy Burns <[email protected]> wrote:
RJH wrote:
I just looked at my mid-terrace old house - the new owners use twice
as much electricity . They've got 2 children
I'm baffled by the electricity consumption.
55" baby-sitter?
EV?
Gaming PC?
Electric cooking?
Bigger fridge or Freezer
More cups of tea/coffee
A TV in every room
More electrical gadgets
I'm baffled by the electricity consumption. Can't think what they're up to.
On 26/01/2025 10:09, Theo wrote:
Basically the overall problem with the EPC is it's trying to do too much
with too little. Buyers want to know facts like what kind of boiler
there
is, whether the walls are solid or cavity and how much the place will
cost
to heat.
Buyers can do a web search on the house energy use for the past year -
as mentioned a few weeks back on this newsgroup.
On 26/01/2025 10:28, alan_m wrote:
On 26/01/2025 10:09, Theo wrote:
Basically the overall problem with the EPC is it's trying to do too much >> with too little. Buyers want to know facts like what kind of boiler
there
is, whether the walls are solid or cavity and how much the place will
cost
to heat.
Buyers can do a web search on the house energy use for the past year -
as mentioned a few weeks back on this newsgroup.
I missed that, have you got a link?
On 26/01/2025 13:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Sigh:.
Everyone misses the obvious
Cannabis farm
That would be un-metered energy use
John Rumm <[email protected]> wrote:
On 26/01/2025 10:28, alan_m wrote:
Buyers can do a web search on the house energy use for the past year
-
as mentioned a few weeks back on this newsgroup.
I missed that, have you got a link?
https://energy.which.co.uk/
'compare energy prices'
then enter the address details and click through all the screens
accepting the defaults.
It shows you the recorded annual gas and electric consumption for the property.
Sigh:.
Everyone misses the obvious
Cannabis farm
On 26 Jan 2025 13:50:55 +0000 (GMT), Theo wrote:
John Rumm <[email protected]> wrote:
On 26/01/2025 10:28, alan_m wrote:
Buyers can do a web search on the house energy use for the past year
-
as mentioned a few weeks back on this newsgroup.
I missed that, have you got a link?
https://energy.which.co.uk/
'compare energy prices'
then enter the address details and click through all the screens
accepting the defaults.
It shows you the recorded annual gas and electric consumption for the
property.
I get to the page
"How do you pay for your energy?
Please select how you pay for your energy"
... Nothing else shows. There is no way of doing it. Pressing "continue"
does nothing.
Anyway, hasn't anybody objected to this on data protection grounds? No-one has given their consent to this data being published, so what is the justification for it?
Handsome Jack wrote:
hasn't anybody objected to this on data protection grounds?
It's not personal though, is it?
Tied to an address, rather than a person.
hasn't anybody objected to this on data protection grounds?
John Rumm <[email protected]> wrote:
On 26/01/2025 10:28, alan_m wrote:
On 26/01/2025 10:09, Theo wrote:
Basically the overall problem with the EPC is it's trying to do too much >> with too little. Buyers want to know facts like what kind of boiler
there
is, whether the walls are solid or cavity and how much the place will
cost
to heat.
Buyers can do a web search on the house energy use for the past year -
as mentioned a few weeks back on this newsgroup.
I missed that, have you got a link?
https://energy.which.co.uk/
'compare energy prices'
then enter the address details and click through all the screens accepting the defaults.
It shows you the recorded annual gas and electric consumption for the property.
In message <[email protected]>, Andy Burns <[email protected]> writes
Handsome Jack wrote:
hasn't anybody objected to this on data protection grounds?
It's not personal though, is it?
Tied to an address, rather than a person.
On 26 Jan 2025 at 14:09:08 GMT, Handsome Jack wrote:
On 26 Jan 2025 13:50:55 +0000 (GMT), Theo wrote:Just try any of the many comparison web sites. I think uswitch was one
John Rumm <[email protected]> wrote:I get to the page "How do you pay for your energy?
On 26/01/2025 10:28, alan_m wrote:
Buyers can do a web search on the house energy use for the past year >>>>> -
as mentioned a few weeks back on this newsgroup.
I missed that, have you got a link?
https://energy.which.co.uk/
'compare energy prices'
then enter the address details and click through all the screens
accepting the defaults.
It shows you the recorded annual gas and electric consumption for the
property.
Please select how you pay for your energy"
... Nothing else shows. There is no way of doing it. Pressing
"continue" does nothing.
of the more forthcoming.
On Sun, 26 Jan 2025 14:16:32 -0000 (UTC), RJH wrote:
On 26 Jan 2025 at 14:09:08 GMT, Handsome Jack wrote:
Just try any of the many comparison web sites. I think uswitch was oneI get to the page "How do you pay for your energy?
Please select how you pay for your energy"
... Nothing else shows. There is no way of doing it. Pressing
"continue" does nothing.
of the more forthcoming.
I don't understand what you mean by this or why it is relevant to the
Which? web site.
Who in their right mind is going to spend ?4000-?6000 on floor insulation, which will have a payback period of 40 to 60 years?
Spike <[email protected]> wrote:Joking aside, when I got to doing heat loss calculations it was quite surprised to work out how effective 3 meters of earth between the centre
Who in their right mind is going to spend ?4000-?6000 on floor insulation, >> which will have a payback period of 40 to 60 years?
Someone sick and tired of having extremely cold floors during winter?
#Paul
Spike <[email protected]> wrote:
Some friends of ours are buying a house, and out of interest I looked upstill on those EPCs. The small 2.5kWp PV, solar water heating and storage heater recommendation suggests this is a relatively old EPC.
the recommendations of the Environmental Performance Certificate, available >> on the .gov web site and quoted below. The house is a two-bedroom
end-of-terrace, with no gas supply.
Who in their right mind is going to spend £4000-£6000 on floor insulation, >> which will have a payback period of 40 to 60 years?
Or install solar water heating for a similar cost and payback period?
Cavity wall insulation at 2 to 6 years payback is feasible, as is high heat >> retention storage heaters at 2-4 years.
Solar panels at 7 to 10 years is getting to be an outlier.
On 26/01/2025 20:15, #Paul wrote:
Spike <[email protected]> wrote:Joking aside, when I got to doing heat loss calculations it was quite surprised to work out how effective 3 meters of earth between the centre
Who in their right mind is going to spend ?4000-?6000 on floor
insulation,
which will have a payback period of 40 to 60 years?
Someone sick and tired of having extremely cold floors during winter?
#Paul
of a house and the outside actually affected heat loss. The far worse situation is a raised ventilated floor..
If you can, those really are worth insulating.
Also, it is amazing how much nicer 18°C with UFH feels as against 20°C with radiators.
And that also saves a bit I guess.
Certainly if one has a suspended wooden floor, ripping it up, insulating
it and laying hot water pipes over the insulation is well worth considering
Spike wrote:insulation,
Who in their right mind is going to spend ?4000-?6000 on floor
Sheepskin slippers are cheap.which will have a payback period of 40 to 60 years?
Someone sick and tired of having extremely cold floors during winter?
Spike <[email protected]> wrote:
Who in their right mind is going to spend ?4000-?6000 on floor insulation, >> which will have a payback period of 40 to 60 years?
Someone sick and tired of having extremely cold floors during winter?
On 27/01/2025 08:47, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/01/2025 20:15, #Paul wrote:
Spike <[email protected]> wrote:Joking aside, when I got to doing heat loss calculations it was quite
Who in their right mind is going to spend ?4000-?6000 on floor
insulation,
which will have a payback period of 40 to 60 years?
Someone sick and tired of having extremely cold floors during winter?
#Paul
surprised to work out how effective 3 meters of earth between the
centre of a house and the outside actually affected heat loss. The far
worse situation is a raised ventilated floor..
If you can, those really are worth insulating.
Also, it is amazing how much nicer 18°C with UFH feels as against
20°C with radiators.
And that also saves a bit I guess.
Certainly if one has a suspended wooden floor, ripping it up,
insulating it and laying hot water pipes over the insulation is well
worth considering
How much consideration probably comes down to how disruptive this is if
you are not already planning a a complete carpet replacement
In my case:-
Removing furniture from a room
Removing fitted carpets
Removing a 11mm thick underlay which is in the main stapled down, and in
some places glued.
Removing floor boards. In my experience in a 1908 house the floor boards
were installed with long cut nails and the wood itself somewhat dried
out. There is a 50:50 chance that when removing the boards that they
would split along the grain. In many cases a split could be glued and
clamped together and the board reused but in the past I've had to go to
a proper wood yard and have thicker and wider timber cut down to size to match existing floor boards.
With a suspended ventilated floor how much insulation would be needed
for UFH. Wouldn't the insulation have to be both under the floor boards
but under the joists to prevent cold bridging?
On 27/01/2025 10:04, alan_m wrote:
On 27/01/2025 08:47, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/01/2025 20:15, #Paul wrote:
Spike <[email protected]> wrote:Joking aside, when I got to doing heat loss calculations it was quite
Who in their right mind is going to spend ?4000-?6000 on floor
insulation,
which will have a payback period of 40 to 60 years?
Someone sick and tired of having extremely cold floors during winter?
#Paul
surprised to work out how effective 3 meters of earth between the
centre of a house and the outside actually affected heat loss. The far
worse situation is a raised ventilated floor..
If you can, those really are worth insulating.
Also, it is amazing how much nicer 18�C with UFH feels as against
20�C with radiators.
And that also saves a bit I guess.
Certainly if one has a suspended wooden floor, ripping it up,
insulating it and laying hot water pipes over the insulation is well
worth considering
How much consideration probably comes down to how disruptive this is if
you are not already planning a a complete carpet replacement
In my case:-
Removing furniture from a room
Removing fitted carpets
Removing a 11mm thick underlay which is in the main stapled down, and in some places glued.
Removing floor boards. In my experience in a 1908 house the floor boards were installed with long cut nails and the wood itself somewhat dried
out. There is a 50:50 chance that when removing the boards that they
would split along the grain. In many cases a split could be glued and clamped together and the board reused but in the past I've had to go to
a proper wood yard and have thicker and wider timber cut down to size to match existing floor boards.
With a suspended ventilated floor how much insulation would be needed
for UFH. Wouldn't the insulation have to be both under the floor boards
but under the joists to prevent cold bridging?
Yes.
If cold pridging is that impoartnt to you.
More realistically you lift the floor boards and slam celotex between
the joists, foil tape over and add another layer of celotex above the
joists - a thin one - and then replace floor boards or refloor with
flooring grade chip.
Or you could put insulation UNDER the joists, then insulation between,
then UFH pipes above that. If you have decent underfloor access.
--
T
More realistically you lift the floor boards and slam celotex between
the joists, foil tape over and add another layer of celotex above the
joists - a thin one - and then replace floor boards or refloor with
flooring grade chip.
Or you could put insulation UNDER the joists, then insulation between,
then UFH pipes above that. If you have decent underfloor access.
Handsome Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jan 2025 14:16:32 -0000 (UTC), RJH wrote:
On 26 Jan 2025 at 14:09:08 GMT, Handsome Jack wrote:
Just try any of the many comparison web sites. I think uswitch wasI get to the page "How do you pay for your energy?
Please select how you pay for your energy"
... Nothing else shows. There is no way of doing it. Pressing
"continue" does nothing.
one of the more forthcoming.
I don't understand what you mean by this or why it is relevant to the
Which? web site.
All the comparison sites get the data from the same clearing houses (one
for gas[1], one for electric[2]). How they look up or present that data
may vary.
For example, Which refuses to progress if it thinks the address is aservice-ges/
business address.
It doesn't seem to work for every address - it may be that smart meters
don't report data via the clearing houses, or some other reason. Maybe
one comparison site is better at querying data from more sources than another?
Theo
[1]
https://www.xoserve.com/products-services/data-products/gas-enquiry-
[2] https://www.ecoes.co.uk/annex_6_ees_service_definition_0.pdf
spec:
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/2019/11/
Do you mean that all the comparison sites have access to, and publish, the energy costs of every [or most] property in the country, like Which seems
to? How and when did that happen?
More realistically you lift the floor boards and slam celotex between
the joists, foil tape over and add another layer of celotex above the
joists - a thin one - and then replace floor boards or refloor with
flooring grade chip.
My floor boards fit underneath the skirting boards. The extra layer of celotext would lift them. So that the skirting boards would hav eto be re-fitted - oh - and all the doors would need the bottoms planed off.
All the comparison sites get the data from the same clearing houses (one for gas[1], one for electric[2]). How they look up or present that data may vary.
Do you mean that all the comparison sites have access to, and publish, the energy costs of every [or most] property in the country, like Which seems
to? How and when did that happen?
For example, Which refuses to progress if it thinks the address is a business address.
It doesn't seem to work for every address - it may be that smart meters don't report data via the clearing houses, or some other reason. Maybe
one comparison site is better at querying data from more sources than another?
Handsome Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
Do you mean that all the comparison sites have access to, and publish, the >> energy costs of every [or most] property in the country, like Which seems
to? How and when did that happen?
Yes, although they aren't publishing it widely - they're just allowing
people to query it if switching 'their' supply (and realistically there's no way to securely ID customers searching on a comparison site). It's part of the infrastructure enabling smooth switching of suppliers, connected to MPAN and other supply data:
https://www.switch-plan.co.uk/switch/ecoes/
Theo
On 27/01/2025 18:27, Theo wrote:
Handsome Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
Do you mean that all the comparison sites have access to, and publish,
the energy costs of every [or most] property in the country, like
Which seems to? How and when did that happen?
Yes, although they aren't publishing it widely - they're just allowing
people to query it if switching 'their' supply (and realistically
there's no way to securely ID customers searching on a comparison
site).
suppliers, connected to MPAN and other supply data:
https://www.switch-plan.co.uk/switch/ecoes/
Theo
It does overcome the problem of people not knowing their typical annual consumption and putting the monthly payments into the comparison sites.
On Mon, 27 Jan 2025 19:17:27 +0000, alan_m wrote:
On 27/01/2025 18:27, Theo wrote:
Handsome Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
Do you mean that all the comparison sites have access to, and publish, >>>> the energy costs of every [or most] property in the country, like
Which seems to? How and when did that happen?
Yes, although they aren't publishing it widely - they're just allowing
people to query it if switching 'their' supply (and realistically
there's no way to securely ID customers searching on a comparison
site).
But each customer already knows, or can easily find out, what his annual consumption is. It should be there on his bill.
It's part of the infrastructure enabling smooth switching of
suppliers, connected to MPAN and other supply data:
https://www.switch-plan.co.uk/switch/ecoes/
Theo
It does overcome the problem of people not knowing their typical annual
consumption and putting the monthly payments into the comparison sites.
That can be achieved by making suppliers publish it on their monthly
bills, as Octopus does already. It does not require the numbers to be published to the world and his wife.
On 28 Jan 2025 at 11:57:00 GMT, Handsome Jack wrote:
On Mon, 27 Jan 2025 19:17:27 +0000, alan_m wrote:
On 27/01/2025 18:27, Theo wrote:
Handsome Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
Do you mean that all the comparison sites have access to, and
publish,
the energy costs of every [or most] property in the country, like
Which seems to? How and when did that happen?
Yes, although they aren't publishing it widely - they're just
allowing people to query it if switching 'their' supply (and
realistically there's no way to securely ID customers searching on a
comparison site).
But each customer already knows, or can easily find out, what his
annual consumption is. It should be there on his bill.
It's part of the infrastructure enabling smooth switching of
suppliers, connected to MPAN and other supply data:
https://www.switch-plan.co.uk/switch/ecoes/
Theo
It does overcome the problem of people not knowing their typical
annual consumption and putting the monthly payments into the
comparison sites.
That can be achieved by making suppliers publish it on their monthly
bills, as Octopus does already. It does not require the numbers to be
published to the world and his wife.
Per-dwelling data is available for sale. So these comaparison sites buy access to the data. I suspect the argument runs that making it available makes for a competitive market, and helps drive down prices.
One or two of the sites I looked at required the ticking of a 'I confirm
this is my property' box - a nod to some degree of awareness. But pretty
much useless at protecting someone's energy use data. I happen to think that's not on - my energy consumption isn't anybody else's business
unlss I decide otherwise. Which I propobaly have in my contract's small print. But hey.
Incidentally, I found what looks to be accurate data for all but one of
the 40 or so properties I looked at. But I had to use about 6 comparison websites.
Some friends of ours are buying a house, and out of interest I looked up
the recommendations of the Environmental Performance Certificate, available on the .gov web site and quoted below. The house is a two-bedroom end-of-terrace, with no gas supply.
Who in their right mind is going to spend £4000-£6000 on floor insulation, which will have a payback period of 40 to 60 years?
Or install solar water heating for a similar cost and payback period?
Cavity wall insulation at 2 to 6 years payback is feasible, as is high heat retention storage heaters at 2-4 years.
Solar panels at 7 to 10 years is getting to be an outlier.
Star saving and payback is improvement of the hot water tank insulation, payback in 6 to 12 weeks.
This whole charade seems predicated on impelling people to put money into
the solar rip-off industry, for no real benefit to the owners.
If this was my house, I’d insulate the hot water tank, and think about CWI, being aware of the issues surrounding that, and put in the storage heaters, for a cost of 4K. I’d then invest the £17k saved, the interest paying for the ‘losses’ of not installing the floor insulation and solar fancies.
On 26/01/2025 09:44, Spike wrote:
Some friends of ours are buying a house, and out of interest I looked up
the recommendations of the Environmental Performance Certificate, available >> on the .gov web site and quoted below. The house is a two-bedroom
end-of-terrace, with no gas supply.
Who in their right mind is going to spend £4000-£6000 on floor insulation, >> which will have a payback period of 40 to 60 years?
Or install solar water heating for a similar cost and payback period?
Cavity wall insulation at 2 to 6 years payback is feasible, as is high heat >> retention storage heaters at 2-4 years.
Solar panels at 7 to 10 years is getting to be an outlier.
Star saving and payback is improvement of the hot water tank insulation,
payback in 6 to 12 weeks.
This whole charade seems predicated on impelling people to put money into
the solar rip-off industry, for no real benefit to the owners.
If this was my house, I’d insulate the hot water tank, and think about CWI,
being aware of the issues surrounding that, and put in the storage heaters, >> for a cost of 4K. I’d then invest the £17k saved, the interest paying for >> the ‘losses’ of not installing the floor insulation and solar fancies. >>
Of course it's much cheaper in the short term if we all just burn the
planet down.
TW
TimW <[email protected]> wrote:
On 26/01/2025 09:44, Spike wrote:
Some friends of ours are buying a house, and out of interest I looked up >>> the recommendations of the Environmental Performance Certificate, available >>> on the .gov web site and quoted below. The house is a two-bedroom
end-of-terrace, with no gas supply.
Who in their right mind is going to spend £4000-£6000 on floor insulation,
which will have a payback period of 40 to 60 years?
If this was my house, I’d insulate the hot water tank, and think about CWI,
being aware of the issues surrounding that, and put in the storage heaters, >>> for a cost of 4K. I’d then invest the £17k saved, the interest paying for
the ‘losses’ of not installing the floor insulation and solar fancies.
Of course it's much cheaper in the short term if we all just burn the
planet down.
To stop that happening we’ll have to circularise the Earths’s orbit,
correct its axial tilt
even out the cosmic ray flux, and regularise the Sun’s output.
alan_m <[email protected]> wrote:
On 26/01/2025 10:09, Theo wrote:
Basically the overall problem with the EPC is it's trying to do too much >>> with too little. Buyers want to know facts like what kind of boiler there >>> is, whether the walls are solid or cavity and how much the place will cost >>> to heat.
Buyers can do a web search on the house energy use for the past year -
as mentioned a few weeks back on this newsgroup.
True, but it doesn't give a good picture because you don't know usage patterns. Do they run the heating at a constant 25C, or do they run it for one hour a day because they can't afford any more? Do they have 5 teenage girls having two showers a day, or a single person having a bath once a
week?
Handsome Jack wrote:
hasn't anybody objected to this on data protection grounds?
It's not personal though, is it?
Tied to an address, rather than a person.
Spike <[email protected]> wrote:
Who in their right mind is going to spend ?4000-?6000 on floor insulation, >> which will have a payback period of 40 to 60 years?
Someone sick and tired of having extremely cold floors during winter?
#Paul
In article <vn7n1g$mofk$[email protected]>,
The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]d> wrote:
On 27/01/2025 10:04, alan_m wrote:
On 27/01/2025 08:47, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Yes.
On 26/01/2025 20:15, #Paul wrote:
Spike <[email protected]> wrote:Joking aside, when I got to doing heat loss calculations it was quite >>>> surprised to work out how effective 3 meters of earth between the
Who in their right mind is going to spend ?4000-?6000 on floor
insulation,
which will have a payback period of 40 to 60 years?
Someone sick and tired of having extremely cold floors during winter? >>>>>
#Paul
centre of a house and the outside actually affected heat loss. The far >>>> worse situation is a raised ventilated floor..
If you can, those really are worth insulating.
Also, it is amazing how much nicer 18°C with UFH feels as against
20°C with radiators.
And that also saves a bit I guess.
Certainly if one has a suspended wooden floor, ripping it up,
insulating it and laying hot water pipes over the insulation is well
worth considering
How much consideration probably comes down to how disruptive this is if
you are not already planning a a complete carpet replacement
In my case:-
Removing furniture from a room
Removing fitted carpets
Removing a 11mm thick underlay which is in the main stapled down, and in >>> some places glued.
Removing floor boards. In my experience in a 1908 house the floor boards >>> were installed with long cut nails and the wood itself somewhat dried
out. There is a 50:50 chance that when removing the boards that they
would split along the grain. In many cases a split could be glued and
clamped together and the board reused but in the past I've had to go to
a proper wood yard and have thicker and wider timber cut down to size to >>> match existing floor boards.
With a suspended ventilated floor how much insulation would be needed
for UFH. Wouldn't the insulation have to be both under the floor boards
but under the joists to prevent cold bridging?
If cold pridging is that impoartnt to you.
More realistically you lift the floor boards and slam celotex between
the joists, foil tape over and add another layer of celotex above the
joists - a thin one - and then replace floor boards or refloor with
flooring grade chip.
My floor boards fit underneath the skirting boards. The extra layer of celotext would lift them. So that the skirting boards would hav eto be re-fitted - oh - and all the doors would need the bottoms planed off.
#Paul wrote:
Spike wrote:insulation,
Who in their right mind is going to spend ?4000-?6000 on floor
Sheepskin slippers are cheap.which will have a payback period of 40 to 60 years?
Someone sick and tired of having extremely cold floors during winter?
On 26/01/2025 09:44, Spike wrote:
Some friends of ours are buying a house, and out of interest I looked up
the recommendations of the Environmental Performance Certificate,
available
on the .gov web site and quoted below. The house is a two-bedroom
end-of-terrace, with no gas supply.
Who in their right mind is going to spend £4000-£6000 on floor
insulation,
which will have a payback period of 40 to 60 years?
Or install solar water heating for a similar cost and payback period?
Cavity wall insulation at 2 to 6 years payback is feasible, as is high
heat
retention storage heaters at 2-4 years.
Solar panels at 7 to 10 years is getting to be an outlier.
Star saving and payback is improvement of the hot water tank insulation,
payback in 6 to 12 weeks.
This whole charade seems predicated on impelling people to put money into
the solar rip-off industry, for no real benefit to the owners.
If this was my house, I’d insulate the hot water tank, and think about
CWI,
being aware of the issues surrounding that, and put in the storage
heaters,
for a cost of 4K. I’d then invest the £17k saved, the interest paying for >> the ‘losses’ of not installing the floor insulation and solar fancies. >>
Of course it's much cheaper in the short term if we all just burn the
planet down.
TW
On 27/01/2025 15:30, charles wrote:
My floor boards fit underneath the skirting boards. The extra layer of
celotext would lift them. So that the skirting boards would hav eto be
re-fitted - oh - and all the doors would need the bottoms planed off.
Somewhat trivial actually.
On 30 Jan 2025 at 14:02:34 GMT, "Andrew" <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 27/01/2025 15:30, charles wrote:
My floor boards fit underneath the skirting boards. The extra
layer of celotext would lift them. So that the skirting boards
would hav eto be re-fitted - oh - and all the doors would need the
bottoms planed off.
Somewhat trivial actually.
But after which there'd exist a trip-hazard going in or out of each
of those rooms. Who'd buy a house like that?
On 26/01/2025 14:24, Andy Burns wrote:
Handsome Jack wrote:
hasn't anybody objected to this on data protection grounds?
It's not personal though, is it?
Tied to an address, rather than a person.
And you have to enter the existing suppliers and annual usage
so exactly what is the point of it ?.
It doesn't seem to allow you to choose any random address andI checked a few houses down the street, or for my friends and it seemed
see what its energy usage ia.
On 26/01/2025 20:15, #Paul wrote:I don't believe that insulation affects property values much - at least
Spike <[email protected]> wrote:
Who in their right mind is going to spend ?4000-?6000 on floor
insulation,
which will have a payback period of 40 to 60 years?
Someone sick and tired of having extremely cold floors during winter?
#Paul
And someone who realizes that every pound spent will add two
pounds to the value of the property, and unlike solar, batteries,
pumps, etc, this is a one-off investment that will not have to be
re-done every 10 years or so (unless you live in a flood-prone
area, in which case DON'T)
On 30/01/2025 14:00, Andrew wrote:
On 26/01/2025 20:15, #Paul wrote:I don't believe that insulation affects property values much - at least
Spike <[email protected]> wrote:
Who in their right mind is going to spend ?4000-?6000 on floor
insulation,
which will have a payback period of 40 to 60 years?
Someone sick and tired of having extremely cold floors during winter?
#Paul
And someone who realizes that every pound spent will add two
pounds to the value of the property, and unlike solar, batteries,
pumps, etc, this is a one-off investment that will not have to be
re-done every 10 years or so (unless you live in a flood-prone
area, in which case DON'T)
not at the upper end...
Having a lockable garage to park the Range Rover in saves a lot on
insurance, and a pony paddock at the back saves on pony nuts...
On 30/01/2025 15:17, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/01/2025 14:00, Andrew wrote:
On 26/01/2025 20:15, #Paul wrote:I don't believe that insulation affects property values much - at least
Spike <[email protected]> wrote:
Who in their right mind is going to spend ?4000-?6000 on floor
insulation,
which will have a payback period of 40 to 60 years?
Someone sick and tired of having extremely cold floors during winter?
And someone who realizes that every pound spent will add two
pounds to the value of the property, and unlike solar, batteries,
pumps, etc, this is a one-off investment that will not have to be
re-done every 10 years or so (unless you live in a flood-prone
area, in which case DON'T)
not at the upper end...
Having a lockable garage to park the Range Rover in saves a lot on
insurance, and a pony paddock at the back saves on pony nuts...
I don't think those categories of home owners give a flying
duck about their energy bills OR the planet :-(
On 30/01/2025 15:17, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/01/2025 14:00, Andrew wrote:
On 26/01/2025 20:15, #Paul wrote:I don't believe that insulation affects property values much - at
Spike <[email protected]> wrote:
Who in their right mind is going to spend ?4000-?6000 on floor
insulation,
which will have a payback period of 40 to 60 years?
Someone sick and tired of having extremely cold floors during winter?
#Paul
And someone who realizes that every pound spent will add two
pounds to the value of the property, and unlike solar, batteries,
pumps, etc, this is a one-off investment that will not have to be
re-done every 10 years or so (unless you live in a flood-prone
area, in which case DON'T)
least not at the upper end...
Having a lockable garage to park the Range Rover in saves a lot on
insurance, and a pony paddock at the back saves on pony nuts...
I don't think those categories of home owners give a flying
duck about their energy bills OR the planet :-(
On 30 Jan 2025 at 16:32:53 GMT, "Andrew" <[email protected]> wrote:
On 30/01/2025 15:17, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/01/2025 14:00, Andrew wrote:
On 26/01/2025 20:15, #Paul wrote:I don't believe that insulation affects property values much - at least
Spike <[email protected]> wrote:And someone who realizes that every pound spent will add two
Who in their right mind is going to spend ?4000-?6000 on floor
insulation,
which will have a payback period of 40 to 60 years?
Someone sick and tired of having extremely cold floors during winter? >>>>
pounds to the value of the property, and unlike solar, batteries,
pumps, etc, this is a one-off investment that will not have to be
re-done every 10 years or so (unless you live in a flood-prone
area, in which case DON'T)
not at the upper end...
Having a lockable garage to park the Range Rover in saves a lot on
insurance, and a pony paddock at the back saves on pony nuts...
I don't think those categories of home owners give a flying
duck about their energy bills OR the planet :-(
About the ULV owners, I would agree. For the rest, you have no evidence.
One of the many flaws with EPCs is that the EPC lasts for 10 years, while
the current sensible recommendations can vary, both in cost and >appropriateness. For example, back in the early 2010s biomass boilers and >domestic wind turbines appeared towards the bottom (the 'increasingly >desperate' section). Those technologies haven't panned out, but yet they're >still on those EPCs. The small 2.5kWp PV, solar water heating and storage >heater recommendation suggests this is a relatively old EPC.
Handsome Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
Well when I tried our road I couldn't find any data, just a request to
All the comparison sites get the data from the same clearing houses (one >> > for gas[1], one for electric[2]). How they look up or present that data >> > may vary.
Do you mean that all the comparison sites have access to, and publish, the >> energy costs of every [or most] property in the country, like Which seems
to? How and when did that happen?
enter my consumption and costs.
In message <PCn*[email protected]>, at 10:09:41 on Sun,Yup. I could get a better score by mounting solar panels on a thatched
26 Jan 2025, Theo <[email protected]> remarked:
One of the many flaws with EPCs is that the EPC lasts for 10 years, while
the current sensible recommendations can vary, both in cost and
appropriateness. For example, back in the early 2010s biomass boilers
and
domestic wind turbines appeared towards the bottom (the 'increasingly
desperate' section). Those technologies haven't panned out, but yet
they're
still on those EPCs. The small 2.5kWp PV, solar water heating and
storage
heater recommendation suggests this is a relatively old EPC.
My EPC is about five years old, and recommends solar water heating. The payback period being about 150yrs.
I think the point here is they should refrain from including suggestions
like that, because they are ludicrous, and eventually brings the process
into disrepute.
On 30/01/2025 16:50, Tim Streater wrote:
On 30 Jan 2025 at 16:32:53 GMT, "Andrew" <[email protected]> wrote: >>WTF is ULV?
On 30/01/2025 15:17, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/01/2025 14:00, Andrew wrote:
On 26/01/2025 20:15, #Paul wrote:I don't believe that insulation affects property values much - at least >>>> not at the upper end...
Spike <[email protected]> wrote:And someone who realizes that every pound spent will add two
Who in their right mind is going to spend ?4000-?6000 on floor
insulation,
which will have a payback period of 40 to 60 years?
Someone sick and tired of having extremely cold floors during winter? >>>>>
pounds to the value of the property, and unlike solar, batteries,
pumps, etc, this is a one-off investment that will not have to be
re-done every 10 years or so (unless you live in a flood-prone
area, in which case DON'T)
Having a lockable garage to park the Range Rover in saves a lot on
insurance, and a pony paddock at the back saves on pony nuts...
I don't think those categories of home owners give a flying
duck about their energy bills OR the planet :-(
About the ULV owners, I would agree. For the rest, you have no evidence.
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