• TOT wind

    From alan_m@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jan 22 14:17:14 2025
    I note with our fantastic network of 1000s of wind generators wind is
    only producing 0.6% of the electricity demand as I write this.



    --
    mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

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  • From Davey@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed Jan 22 14:36:32 2025
    On Wed, 22 Jan 2025 14:17:14 +0000
    alan_m <[email protected]> wrote:

    I note with our fantastic network of 1000s of wind generators wind is
    only producing 0.6% of the electricity demand as I write this.




    The wind is going to be 'blowing a gale' later in the week. It would be interesting to see if that number changes (up or down).
    Don't they have to feather the blades or something if the wind is too
    strong?

    --
    Davey.

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  • From Scott@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jan 22 16:06:07 2025
    On Wed, 22 Jan 2025 14:17:14 +0000, alan_m <[email protected]>
    wrote:
    [snip]

    'Wasn't it yesterday we used to laugh at the wind behind us?'
    (Diana Ross - Touch me in the morning)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Davey on Wed Jan 22 18:46:55 2025
    On 22/01/2025 14:36, Davey wrote:
    On Wed, 22 Jan 2025 14:17:14 +0000
    alan_m <[email protected]> wrote:

    I note with our fantastic network of 1000s of wind generators wind is
    only producing 0.6% of the electricity demand as I write this.




    The wind is going to be 'blowing a gale' later in the week. It would be interesting to see if that number changes (up or down).
    Don't they have to feather the blades or something if the wind is too
    strong?

    Yes. Either because the turbine risks damage or because the grid
    backbone cant handle the energy flow, They get paid in the latter case.
    Not sure about the former.
    It's all a racket, anyway. With luck Trump will put and end to it. You
    cant be competitive on renewables if T USA is building nukes and
    fracking gas.

    --
    There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
    returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

    Mark Twain

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  • From TimW@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jan 22 18:54:21 2025
    On 22/01/2025 14:17, alan_m wrote:

    I note with our fantastic network of 1000s of wind generators wind is
    only producing 0.6% of the electricity demand as I write this.


    Did you expect them to work when the wind isn't blowing?
    That's why we need a whole array of generating sources, enhanced storage
    and rationalised consumption to meet net zero. It isn't complicated.
    TW

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Spike on Wed Jan 22 19:23:57 2025
    On 22/01/2025 19:19, Spike wrote:
    TimW <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 14:17, alan_m wrote:

    I note with our fantastic network of 1000s of wind generators wind is
    only producing 0.6% of the electricity demand as I write this.

    Did you expect them to work when the wind isn't blowing?
    That's why we need a whole array of generating sources, enhanced storage
    and rationalised consumption to meet net zero. It isn't complicated.
    TW

    It’s very complicated.

    Estimates of the UK energy demand when we are all electric, suggest we need 3x as much generation as we need now, say 150GW.

    Putting in enough wind to generate 150GW is laughable.

    Solar could never produce that much.

    Biomass is the second most polluting generation there is.

    Tidal is a joke.

    Running cables to Morocco is hardly energy-secure.

    Hydrogen is for toy balloons.

    We’ll need a massive grid, not just a balancing one.

    December gave us a greater than two-week Dunkelflaute; battery backup would need to supply 4TWh to cover that. The world’s largest battery storage, at $half-a-billion, could supply 1/1000th of it.

    FHS, do some sums.

    ‘Rationalised consumption’ is pure Marxism.

    AKA "Pure EcoBollox™"

    It only fools People Who Cant Do Sums

    We don't need diversity - we need around 150 nuclear power stations.


    --
    "Fanaticism consists in redoubling your effort when you have
    forgotten your aim."

    George Santayana

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  • From Spike@21:1/5 to TimW on Wed Jan 22 19:19:57 2025
    TimW <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 14:17, alan_m wrote:

    I note with our fantastic network of 1000s of wind generators wind is
    only producing 0.6% of the electricity demand as I write this.

    Did you expect them to work when the wind isn't blowing?
    That's why we need a whole array of generating sources, enhanced storage
    and rationalised consumption to meet net zero. It isn't complicated.
    TW

    It’s very complicated.

    Estimates of the UK energy demand when we are all electric, suggest we need
    3x as much generation as we need now, say 150GW.

    Putting in enough wind to generate 150GW is laughable.

    Solar could never produce that much.

    Biomass is the second most polluting generation there is.

    Tidal is a joke.

    Running cables to Morocco is hardly energy-secure.

    Hydrogen is for toy balloons.

    We’ll need a massive grid, not just a balancing one.

    December gave us a greater than two-week Dunkelflaute; battery backup would need to supply 4TWh to cover that. The world’s largest battery storage, at $half-a-billion, could supply 1/1000th of it.

    FHS, do some sums.

    ‘Rationalised consumption’ is pure Marxism.

    --
    Spike

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tim Streater@21:1/5 to TimW on Wed Jan 22 19:26:52 2025
    On 22 Jan 2025 at 18:54:21 GMT, "TimW" <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 22/01/2025 14:17, alan_m wrote:

    I note with our fantastic network of 1000s of wind generators wind is
    only producing 0.6% of the electricity demand as I write this.

    Did you expect them to work when the wind isn't blowing?

    I expect them to provide energy 24 x 7. How they do it is not my business. If the wind doesn't blow, then it should be their repsonsibility to make up the shortfall at their cost, not the cost of the rest of us. If they can't do
    that, then what use are they?

    That's why we need a whole array of generating sources,

    No, we need reliable sources like nuclear. Everything else is frippery.

    enhanced storage

    What did you have in mind? Any fool can we "we need xxx". That is mere belling-the-cat. If you can't make a plausible suggestion then I suggest you STFU until you can.

    and rationalised consumption to meet net zero.

    Ah I see. Those of us who are more equal than others, get the power. Everybody else can go hang.

    It isn't complicated.

    Then why are you insisting on a system that makes it more complicated?

    --
    "The EU Customs Union is a racket that defends producers in rich countries against producers in poor countries."

    Jacob Rees-Mogg MP

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  • From SteveW@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed Jan 22 23:34:28 2025
    On 22/01/2025 19:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 19:19, Spike wrote:
    TimW <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 14:17, alan_m wrote:

    I note with our fantastic network of 1000s of wind generators wind is
    only producing 0.6% of the electricity demand as I write this.

    Did you expect them to work when the wind isn't blowing?
    That's why we need a whole array of generating sources, enhanced storage >>> and rationalised consumption to meet net zero. It isn't complicated.
    TW

    It’s very complicated.

    Estimates of the UK energy demand when we are all electric, suggest we
    need
    3x as much generation as we need now, say 150GW.

    Putting in enough wind to generate 150GW is laughable.

    Solar could  never produce that much.

    Biomass is the second most polluting generation there is.

    Tidal is a joke.

    Running cables to Morocco is hardly energy-secure.

    Hydrogen is for toy balloons.

    We’ll need a massive grid, not just a balancing one.

    December gave us a greater than two-week Dunkelflaute; battery backup
    would
    need to supply 4TWh to cover that. The world’s largest battery
    storage, at
    $half-a-billion, could supply 1/1000th of it.

    FHS, do some sums.

    ‘Rationalised consumption’ is pure Marxism.

    AKA "Pure EcoBollox™"

    It only fools People Who Cant Do Sums

    We don't need diversity - we need around 150 nuclear power stations.

    Have you misplaced a zero? Around 15 or 16 Sizewell Cs I think. Plus a
    few for redundancy, when maintenance is required.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to SteveW on Wed Jan 22 23:48:29 2025
    On 22/01/2025 23:34, SteveW wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 19:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 19:19, Spike wrote:
    TimW <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 14:17, alan_m wrote:

    I note with our fantastic network of 1000s of wind generators wind is >>>>> only producing 0.6% of the electricity demand as I write this.

    Did you expect them to work when the wind isn't blowing?
    That's why we need a whole array of generating sources, enhanced
    storage
    and rationalised consumption to meet net zero. It isn't complicated.
    TW

    It’s very complicated.

    Estimates of the UK energy demand when we are all electric, suggest
    we need
    3x as much generation as we need now, say 150GW.

    Putting in enough wind to generate 150GW is laughable.

    Solar could  never produce that much.

    Biomass is the second most polluting generation there is.

    Tidal is a joke.

    Running cables to Morocco is hardly energy-secure.

    Hydrogen is for toy balloons.

    We’ll need a massive grid, not just a balancing one.

    December gave us a greater than two-week Dunkelflaute; battery backup
    would
    need to supply 4TWh to cover that. The world’s largest battery
    storage, at
    $half-a-billion, could supply 1/1000th of it.

    FHS, do some sums.

    ‘Rationalised consumption’ is pure Marxism.

    AKA "Pure EcoBollox™"

    It only fools People Who Cant Do Sums

    We don't need diversity - we need around 150 nuclear power stations.

    Have you misplaced a zero? Around 15 or 16 Sizewell Cs I think. Plus a
    few for redundancy, when maintenance is required.


    Nope. I was
    (a) thinking of smaller reactors than the giant EDF EPWR fuckups
    (b) working on the basis that we want *everything* to be electric, not
    just what currently is.

    Remember electricity only accounts for about 30% of our energy usage.
    We probably need about 200GWEe to run the country and do chemical and
    metal smelting, concrete making and the like.


    --
    "It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing
    conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Spike@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Jan 23 09:29:39 2025
    The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 23:34, SteveW wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 19:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 19:19, Spike wrote:
    TimW <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 14:17, alan_m wrote:

    I note with our fantastic network of 1000s of wind generators wind is >>>>>> only producing 0.6% of the electricity demand as I write this.

    Did you expect them to work when the wind isn't blowing?
    That's why we need a whole array of generating sources, enhanced
    storage
    and rationalised consumption to meet net zero. It isn't complicated. >>>>> TW

    It’s very complicated.

    Estimates of the UK energy demand when we are all electric, suggest
    we need
    3x as much generation as we need now, say 150GW.

    Putting in enough wind to generate 150GW is laughable.

    Solar could  never produce that much.

    Biomass is the second most polluting generation there is.

    Tidal is a joke.

    Running cables to Morocco is hardly energy-secure.

    Hydrogen is for toy balloons.

    We’ll need a massive grid, not just a balancing one.

    December gave us a greater than two-week Dunkelflaute; battery backup
    would
    need to supply 4TWh to cover that. The world’s largest battery
    storage, at
    $half-a-billion, could supply 1/1000th of it.

    FHS, do some sums.

    ‘Rationalised consumption’ is pure Marxism.

    AKA "Pure EcoBollox™"

    It only fools People Who Cant Do Sums

    We don't need diversity - we need around 150 nuclear power stations.

    Have you misplaced a zero? Around 15 or 16 Sizewell Cs I think. Plus a
    few for redundancy, when maintenance is required.


    Nope. I was
    (a) thinking of smaller reactors than the giant EDF EPWR fuckups
    (b) working on the basis that we want *everything* to be electric, not
    just what currently is.

    Remember electricity only accounts for about 30% of our energy usage.
    We probably need about 200GWEe to run the country and do chemical and
    metal smelting, concrete making and the like.

    And with plenty of SMRs placed where the loads are, the grid could be
    reverted to what it was originally, namely a balancing grid. All designed
    and constructed by engineers to be efficient and reliable, unlike the fabulously expensive fantasy that the greens are foisting on us.

    --
    Spike

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Davey@21:1/5 to Spike on Thu Jan 23 10:00:00 2025
    On 23 Jan 2025 09:29:39 GMT
    Spike <[email protected]> wrote:

    The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 23:34, SteveW wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 19:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 19:19, Spike wrote:
    TimW <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 14:17, alan_m wrote:

    I note with our fantastic network of 1000s of wind generators
    wind is only producing 0.6% of the electricity demand as I
    write this.

    Did you expect them to work when the wind isn't blowing?
    That's why we need a whole array of generating sources,
    enhanced storage
    and rationalised consumption to meet net zero. It isn't
    complicated. TW

    It’s very complicated.

    Estimates of the UK energy demand when we are all electric,
    suggest we need
    3x as much generation as we need now, say 150GW.

    Putting in enough wind to generate 150GW is laughable.

    Solar could  never produce that much.

    Biomass is the second most polluting generation there is.

    Tidal is a joke.

    Running cables to Morocco is hardly energy-secure.

    Hydrogen is for toy balloons.

    We’ll need a massive grid, not just a balancing one.

    December gave us a greater than two-week Dunkelflaute; battery
    backup would
    need to supply 4TWh to cover that. The world’s largest battery
    storage, at
    $half-a-billion, could supply 1/1000th of it.

    FHS, do some sums.

    ‘Rationalised consumption’ is pure Marxism.

    AKA "Pure EcoBollox™"

    It only fools People Who Cant Do Sums

    We don't need diversity - we need around 150 nuclear power
    stations.

    Have you misplaced a zero? Around 15 or 16 Sizewell Cs I think.
    Plus a few for redundancy, when maintenance is required.


    Nope. I was
    (a) thinking of smaller reactors than the giant EDF EPWR fuckups
    (b) working on the basis that we want *everything* to be electric,
    not just what currently is.

    Remember electricity only accounts for about 30% of our energy
    usage. We probably need about 200GWEe to run the country and do
    chemical and metal smelting, concrete making and the like.

    And with plenty of SMRs placed where the loads are, the grid could be reverted to what it was originally, namely a balancing grid. All
    designed and constructed by engineers to be efficient and reliable,
    unlike the fabulously expensive fantasy that the greens are foisting
    on us.


    But..but.. you're talking sense, so there is no chance that Milliband
    and the current crowd in charge will give it any consideration.
    The idea.

    --
    Davey.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Spike on Thu Jan 23 10:08:29 2025
    On 23/01/2025 09:29, Spike wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 23:34, SteveW wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 19:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 19:19, Spike wrote:
    TimW <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 14:17, alan_m wrote:

    I note with our fantastic network of 1000s of wind generators wind is >>>>>>> only producing 0.6% of the electricity demand as I write this.

    Did you expect them to work when the wind isn't blowing?
    That's why we need a whole array of generating sources, enhanced
    storage
    and rationalised consumption to meet net zero. It isn't complicated. >>>>>> TW

    It’s very complicated.

    Estimates of the UK energy demand when we are all electric, suggest
    we need
    3x as much generation as we need now, say 150GW.

    Putting in enough wind to generate 150GW is laughable.

    Solar could  never produce that much.

    Biomass is the second most polluting generation there is.

    Tidal is a joke.

    Running cables to Morocco is hardly energy-secure.

    Hydrogen is for toy balloons.

    We’ll need a massive grid, not just a balancing one.

    December gave us a greater than two-week Dunkelflaute; battery backup >>>>> would
    need to supply 4TWh to cover that. The world’s largest battery
    storage, at
    $half-a-billion, could supply 1/1000th of it.

    FHS, do some sums.

    ‘Rationalised consumption’ is pure Marxism.

    AKA "Pure EcoBollox™"

    It only fools People Who Cant Do Sums

    We don't need diversity - we need around 150 nuclear power stations.

    Have you misplaced a zero? Around 15 or 16 Sizewell Cs I think. Plus a
    few for redundancy, when maintenance is required.


    Nope. I was
    (a) thinking of smaller reactors than the giant EDF EPWR fuckups
    (b) working on the basis that we want *everything* to be electric, not
    just what currently is.

    Remember electricity only accounts for about 30% of our energy usage.
    We probably need about 200GWEe to run the country and do chemical and
    metal smelting, concrete making and the like.

    And with plenty of SMRs placed where the loads are, the grid could be reverted to what it was originally, namely a balancing grid. All designed
    and constructed by engineers to be efficient and reliable, unlike the fabulously expensive fantasy that the greens are foisting on us.


    Exactly. Battersea power station not only generated electricity for
    London, it provided district heating as well and used the Thames to
    deliver coal and cool the turbine exhausts.

    It would be ideal for 4-6 SMRs. Surrounded by 'social housing' with free heating and low cost electricity.


    --
    “Ideas are inherently conservative. They yield not to the attack of
    other ideas but to the massive onslaught of circumstance"

    - John K Galbraith

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Davey on Thu Jan 23 10:10:06 2025
    On 23/01/2025 10:00, Davey wrote:
    On 23 Jan 2025 09:29:39 GMT
    Spike <[email protected]> wrote:

    The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 23:34, SteveW wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 19:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 19:19, Spike wrote:
    TimW <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 14:17, alan_m wrote:

    I note with our fantastic network of 1000s of wind generators
    wind is only producing 0.6% of the electricity demand as I
    write this.

    Did you expect them to work when the wind isn't blowing?
    That's why we need a whole array of generating sources,
    enhanced storage
    and rationalised consumption to meet net zero. It isn't
    complicated. TW

    It’s very complicated.

    Estimates of the UK energy demand when we are all electric,
    suggest we need
    3x as much generation as we need now, say 150GW.

    Putting in enough wind to generate 150GW is laughable.

    Solar could  never produce that much.

    Biomass is the second most polluting generation there is.

    Tidal is a joke.

    Running cables to Morocco is hardly energy-secure.

    Hydrogen is for toy balloons.

    We’ll need a massive grid, not just a balancing one.

    December gave us a greater than two-week Dunkelflaute; battery
    backup would
    need to supply 4TWh to cover that. The world’s largest battery
    storage, at
    $half-a-billion, could supply 1/1000th of it.

    FHS, do some sums.

    ‘Rationalised consumption’ is pure Marxism.

    AKA "Pure EcoBollox™"

    It only fools People Who Cant Do Sums

    We don't need diversity - we need around 150 nuclear power
    stations.

    Have you misplaced a zero? Around 15 or 16 Sizewell Cs I think.
    Plus a few for redundancy, when maintenance is required.


    Nope. I was
    (a) thinking of smaller reactors than the giant EDF EPWR fuckups
    (b) working on the basis that we want *everything* to be electric,
    not just what currently is.

    Remember electricity only accounts for about 30% of our energy
    usage. We probably need about 200GWEe to run the country and do
    chemical and metal smelting, concrete making and the like.

    And with plenty of SMRs placed where the loads are, the grid could be
    reverted to what it was originally, namely a balancing grid. All
    designed and constructed by engineers to be efficient and reliable,
    unlike the fabulously expensive fantasy that the greens are foisting
    on us.


    But..but.. you're talking sense, so there is no chance that Milliband
    and the current crowd in charge will give it any consideration.
    The idea.

    Miliband may have no choice. With Reeves and Starmer already having done
    far more damage to the economy than Liz Truss ever did, there simply may
    be no money for his gratuitous EcoBollox™


    --
    The higher up the mountainside
    The greener grows the grass.
    The higher up the monkey climbs
    The more he shows his arse.

    Traditional

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Spike@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Jan 23 10:58:14 2025
    The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On 23/01/2025 10:00, Davey wrote:
    On 23 Jan 2025 09:29:39 GMT
    Spike <[email protected]> wrote:

    The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 23:34, SteveW wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 19:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 19:19, Spike wrote:
    TimW <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 14:17, alan_m wrote:

    I note with our fantastic network of 1000s of wind generators >>>>>>>>> wind is only producing 0.6% of the electricity demand as I
    write this.

    Did you expect them to work when the wind isn't blowing?
    That's why we need a whole array of generating sources,
    enhanced storage
    and rationalised consumption to meet net zero. It isn't
    complicated. TW

    It’s very complicated.

    Estimates of the UK energy demand when we are all electric,
    suggest we need
    3x as much generation as we need now, say 150GW.

    Putting in enough wind to generate 150GW is laughable.

    Solar could  never produce that much.

    Biomass is the second most polluting generation there is.

    Tidal is a joke.

    Running cables to Morocco is hardly energy-secure.

    Hydrogen is for toy balloons.

    We’ll need a massive grid, not just a balancing one.

    December gave us a greater than two-week Dunkelflaute; battery
    backup would
    need to supply 4TWh to cover that. The world’s largest battery >>>>>>> storage, at
    $half-a-billion, could supply 1/1000th of it.

    FHS, do some sums.

    ‘Rationalised consumption’ is pure Marxism.

    AKA "Pure EcoBollox™"

    It only fools People Who Cant Do Sums

    We don't need diversity - we need around 150 nuclear power
    stations.

    Have you misplaced a zero? Around 15 or 16 Sizewell Cs I think.
    Plus a few for redundancy, when maintenance is required.


    Nope. I was
    (a) thinking of smaller reactors than the giant EDF EPWR fuckups
    (b) working on the basis that we want *everything* to be electric,
    not just what currently is.

    Remember electricity only accounts for about 30% of our energy
    usage. We probably need about 200GWEe to run the country and do
    chemical and metal smelting, concrete making and the like.

    And with plenty of SMRs placed where the loads are, the grid could be
    reverted to what it was originally, namely a balancing grid. All
    designed and constructed by engineers to be efficient and reliable,
    unlike the fabulously expensive fantasy that the greens are foisting
    on us.


    But..but.. you're talking sense, so there is no chance that Milliband
    and the current crowd in charge will give it any consideration.
    The idea.

    Miliband may have no choice. With Reeves and Starmer already having done
    far more damage to the economy than Liz Truss ever did, there simply may
    be no money for his gratuitous EcoBollox™

    I fully recommend listening to the Today programme on BBC Sounds broadcast
    on the 22nd January starting at 18m20s into the programme. The government
    gets slated for its policies by business users. About 10 minutes long.

    Typical comment “The problem is that no member of the Cabinet has had to
    find the monthly wages”.

    --
    Spike

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From AnthonyL@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 23 12:44:07 2025
    On Wed, 22 Jan 2025 14:17:14 +0000, alan_m <[email protected]>
    wrote:


    I note with our fantastic network of 1000s of wind generators wind is
    only producing 0.6% of the electricity demand as I write this.


    At this very moment Gridwatch says wind is producing 31%, almost as
    much as CCGT. But then what will happen if it gets windier?


    --
    AnthonyL

    Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to AnthonyL on Thu Jan 23 14:56:42 2025
    On 23/01/2025 12:44, AnthonyL wrote:
    On Wed, 22 Jan 2025 14:17:14 +0000, alan_m <[email protected]>
    wrote:


    I note with our fantastic network of 1000s of wind generators wind is
    only producing 0.6% of the electricity demand as I write this.


    At this very moment Gridwatch says wind is producing 31%, almost as
    much as CCGT. But then what will happen if it gets windier?


    They will switch turbines off. They will still get paid for what they
    'could' have generated if the grid had been able to take it.

    --
    In todays liberal progressive conflict-free education system, everyone
    gets full Marx.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From SteveW@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Jan 23 15:05:29 2025
    On 22/01/2025 23:48, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 23:34, SteveW wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 19:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 19:19, Spike wrote:
    TimW <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 14:17, alan_m wrote:

    I note with our fantastic network of 1000s of wind generators wind is >>>>>> only producing 0.6% of the electricity demand as I write this.

    Did you expect them to work when the wind isn't blowing?
    That's why we need a whole array of generating sources, enhanced
    storage
    and rationalised consumption to meet net zero. It isn't complicated. >>>>> TW

    It’s very complicated.

    Estimates of the UK energy demand when we are all electric, suggest
    we need
    3x as much generation as we need now, say 150GW.

    Putting in enough wind to generate 150GW is laughable.

    Solar could  never produce that much.

    Biomass is the second most polluting generation there is.

    Tidal is a joke.

    Running cables to Morocco is hardly energy-secure.

    Hydrogen is for toy balloons.

    We’ll need a massive grid, not just a balancing one.

    December gave us a greater than two-week Dunkelflaute; battery
    backup would
    need to supply 4TWh to cover that. The world’s largest battery
    storage, at
    $half-a-billion, could supply 1/1000th of it.

    FHS, do some sums.

    ‘Rationalised consumption’ is pure Marxism.

    AKA "Pure EcoBollox™"

    It only fools People Who Cant Do Sums

    We don't need diversity - we need around 150 nuclear power stations.

    Have you misplaced a zero? Around 15 or 16 Sizewell Cs I think. Plus a
    few for redundancy, when maintenance is required.


    Nope. I was
    (a) thinking of smaller reactors than the giant EDF EPWR fuckups

    Fair enough, that's why I included SMRs in the question.

    (b) working on the basis that we want *everything* to be electric, not
    just what currently is.

    Remember electricity only accounts for about 30% of our energy usage. We probably need about 200GWEe to run the country and do chemical and metal smelting, concrete making and the like.

    While we will need a lot more electricity, chunks of it (Heating stored
    hot water, charging EVs and home batteries, some industrial processes,
    maybe heating heat stores for later home heating), will likely be done
    at what are currently times of low demand. We may need 3x as much
    electricity per year, but the increase in peak demand (and therefore
    generating capacity) will likely be far lower.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to SteveW on Thu Jan 23 15:32:38 2025
    On 23/01/2025 15:05, SteveW wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 23:48, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 23:34, SteveW wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 19:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 19:19, Spike wrote:
    TimW <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 14:17, alan_m wrote:

    I note with our fantastic network of 1000s of wind generators
    wind is
    only producing 0.6% of the electricity demand as I write this.

    Did you expect them to work when the wind isn't blowing?
    That's why we need a whole array of generating sources, enhanced
    storage
    and rationalised consumption to meet net zero. It isn't complicated. >>>>>> TW

    It’s very complicated.

    Estimates of the UK energy demand when we are all electric, suggest
    we need
    3x as much generation as we need now, say 150GW.

    Putting in enough wind to generate 150GW is laughable.

    Solar could  never produce that much.

    Biomass is the second most polluting generation there is.

    Tidal is a joke.

    Running cables to Morocco is hardly energy-secure.

    Hydrogen is for toy balloons.

    We’ll need a massive grid, not just a balancing one.

    December gave us a greater than two-week Dunkelflaute; battery
    backup would
    need to supply 4TWh to cover that. The world’s largest battery
    storage, at
    $half-a-billion, could supply 1/1000th of it.

    FHS, do some sums.

    ‘Rationalised consumption’ is pure Marxism.

    AKA "Pure EcoBollox™"

    It only fools People Who Cant Do Sums

    We don't need diversity - we need around 150 nuclear power stations.

    Have you misplaced a zero? Around 15 or 16 Sizewell Cs I think. Plus
    a few for redundancy, when maintenance is required.


    Nope. I was
    (a) thinking of smaller reactors than the giant EDF EPWR fuckups

    Fair enough, that's why I included SMRs in the question.

    (b) working on the basis that we want *everything* to be electric, not
    just what currently is.

    Remember electricity only accounts for about 30% of our energy usage.
    We probably need about 200GWEe to run the country and do chemical and
    metal smelting, concrete making and the like.

    While we will need a lot more electricity, chunks of it (Heating stored
    hot water, charging EVs and home batteries, some industrial processes,
    maybe heating heat stores for later home heating), will likely be done
    at what are currently times of low demand. We may need 3x as much
    electricity per year, but the increase in peak demand (and therefore generating capacity) will likely be far lower.

    If you have a big smelter you will want it to operate 24x7. Banks dont
    offer lower interests rates on capital which is only used at night :-)

    But you have a slight point: using nuclear electricity to make offpeak
    hydrogen to use as a reducing agent in a 24x7 smelter is possible. As is massive heat banks built into new build houses...

    And a selection of liquid salt cooled reactors whose liquid salt is
    itself a huge heat bank in its own right.

    It all gets much easier if you don't want to store electricity, just heat.

    HOWEVER be aware that the UK's total energy consumption is a lot higher
    than just its electricity consumption. Transport takes a lot as does commercial. We have of course outsourced manufacturing to India and
    China, so we don't use any there at all, although we probably should.

    We are currently running at 125 million tonnes of oil equivalent (mtoe) annually.
    ( https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/66f13235f188a93404379f94/Energy_Consumption_in_the_UK_2024.pdf
    )

    Now leaving aside the matter of apples and oranges and the efficiency of
    fuel burning engines versus the efficiency of electrical machines, that
    is 1453750 MWh. and averaged crudely over a year (8766 hours) that means
    the average consumption of the UK is 165GW.

    Which is ~ 4 times higher than existing grid supplies.

    And we would need a bit of headroom for winter.

    So a zero carbon britain with no useless renewables needs maybe 200GW of nuclear, which is about 400 RR SMRs.Which I reckon would be arranged in reasonably large groups to make 150 power stations. Or 50 MASSIVE
    Fukushima sized 5GW power stations.

    Obviously that is only a crude wet finger estimate, and we can argue
    over details all day, but my gut feeling is that we will in time go for
    SMRs simply because they can be mass produced and will be cheaper,
    especially if built far closer to where the power is needed than today's nuclear power stations.

    And we will need about 150 sites. Some may be big ones. There is a good argument for powering London from a couple of 5GW power stations
    somewhere down the Estuary..

    But not e.g, Northampton. There a couple of SMRs are far more appropriate



    --
    WOKE is an acronym... Without Originality, Knowledge or Education.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jack Harry Teesdale@21:1/5 to TimW on Thu Jan 23 17:12:49 2025
    On 22/01/2025 18:54, TimW wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 14:17, alan_m wrote:

    I note with our fantastic network of 1000s of wind generators wind is
    only producing 0.6% of the electricity demand as I write this.


    Did you expect them to work when the wind isn't blowing?
    That's why we need a whole array of generating sources, enhanced storage
    and rationalised consumption to meet net zero. It isn't complicated.
    TW

    We neither need nor can afford net zero.

    Those who want EV's and heat pumps are welcome to them but in the
    meantime the rest of us are happy with our petrol/diesel cars and
    gas/oil boilers because they are affordable and do the job properly

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From alan_m@21:1/5 to SteveW on Thu Jan 23 17:42:07 2025
    On 23/01/2025 15:05, SteveW wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 23:48, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 23:34, SteveW wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 19:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 19:19, Spike wrote:
    TimW <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 14:17, alan_m wrote:

    I note with our fantastic network of 1000s of wind generators
    wind is
    only producing 0.6% of the electricity demand as I write this.

    Did you expect them to work when the wind isn't blowing?
    That's why we need a whole array of generating sources, enhanced
    storage
    and rationalised consumption to meet net zero. It isn't complicated. >>>>>> TW

    It’s very complicated.

    Estimates of the UK energy demand when we are all electric, suggest
    we need
    3x as much generation as we need now, say 150GW.

    Putting in enough wind to generate 150GW is laughable.

    Solar could  never produce that much.

    Biomass is the second most polluting generation there is.

    Tidal is a joke.

    Running cables to Morocco is hardly energy-secure.

    Hydrogen is for toy balloons.

    We’ll need a massive grid, not just a balancing one.

    December gave us a greater than two-week Dunkelflaute; battery
    backup would
    need to supply 4TWh to cover that. The world’s largest battery
    storage, at
    $half-a-billion, could supply 1/1000th of it.

    FHS, do some sums.

    ‘Rationalised consumption’ is pure Marxism.

    AKA "Pure EcoBollox™"

    It only fools People Who Cant Do Sums

    We don't need diversity - we need around 150 nuclear power stations.

    Have you misplaced a zero? Around 15 or 16 Sizewell Cs I think. Plus
    a few for redundancy, when maintenance is required.


    Nope. I was
    (a) thinking of smaller reactors than the giant EDF EPWR fuckups

    Fair enough, that's why I included SMRs in the question.

    (b) working on the basis that we want *everything* to be electric, not
    just what currently is.

    Remember electricity only accounts for about 30% of our energy usage.
    We probably need about 200GWEe to run the country and do chemical and
    metal smelting, concrete making and the like.

    While we will need a lot more electricity, chunks of it (Heating stored
    hot water, charging EVs and home batteries, some industrial processes,
    maybe heating heat stores for later home heating), will likely be done
    at what are currently times of low demand. We may need 3x as much
    electricity per year, but the increase in peak demand (and therefore generating capacity) will likely be far lower.


    On a cold winters day households are likely to have their electric ASHP
    heating on throughout the day whereas now approx 20 millions UK of homes
    are heated with gas. Yes, if you charge your battery off peak and use
    it during the day you can spread the load but that means the majority of householders have to invest 1000s in batteries.
    BUT
    It wouldn't have worked in the past week as there was very little
    renewable generation to charge the batteries in the first place.

    With everyone charging their EVs overnight there may not be an off peak
    period.

    This is probably the golden period where those who can afford perhaps
    £20K to install solar and batteries (taking advantage of substantial
    grants) to offset peak usage with their cheap off peak storage. When
    the grants stop and enough people are doing the same the advantages for
    saving money may evaporate.




    --
    mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeff Layman@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Jan 25 11:48:29 2025
    On 23/01/2025 10:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


    Exactly. Battersea power station not only generated electricity for
    London, it provided district heating as well and used the Thames to
    deliver coal and cool the turbine exhausts.

    It would be ideal for 4-6 SMRs. Surrounded by 'social housing' with free heating and low cost electricity.

    Well, it /would/ have been... <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battersea_Power_Station#2022_opening>

    --
    Jeff

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Jeff Layman on Sat Jan 25 12:32:22 2025
    On 25/01/2025 11:48, Jeff Layman wrote:
    On 23/01/2025 10:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


    Exactly. Battersea power station not only generated electricity for
    London, it provided district heating as well and used the Thames to
    deliver coal and cool the turbine exhausts.

    It would be ideal for 4-6 SMRs. Surrounded by 'social housing' with free
    heating and low cost electricity.

    Well, it /would/ have been... <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battersea_Power_Station#2022_opening>

    Sadly, of course you are correct.

    Why people want to pay vast sums of money to live in a third world
    shithole is beyond me.

    --
    Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
    foolish, and by the rulers as useful.

    (Seneca the Younger, 65 AD)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Harry Bloomfield Esq@21:1/5 to Spike on Tue Jan 28 12:11:29 2025
    On 23/01/2025 09:29, Spike wrote:
    And with plenty of SMRs placed where the loads are, the grid could be reverted to what it was originally, namely a balancing grid. All designed
    and constructed by engineers to be efficient and reliable, unlike the fabulously expensive fantasy that the greens are foisting on us.

    +1

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From TimW@21:1/5 to Tim Streater on Tue Jan 28 12:49:16 2025
    On 22/01/2025 19:26, Tim Streater wrote:
    [...]

    I expect them to provide energy 24 x 7. How they do it is not my business.

    [...] If you can't make a plausible suggestion then I suggest you
    STFU until you can.
    [...]
    So it's not your business to organise a national energy policy, but
    somehow you think it is mine?

    Actually it isn't my job to do that, but luckily we have a government
    that takes its obligations seriously and here is a recent HofC research Briefing on progress and plans: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9888/


    tw

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Harry Bloomfield Esq on Tue Jan 28 13:43:55 2025
    On 28/01/2025 12:11, Harry Bloomfield Esq wrote:
    On 23/01/2025 09:29, Spike wrote:
    And with plenty of SMRs placed where the loads are, the grid could be
    reverted to what it was originally, namely a balancing grid. All designed
    and constructed by engineers to be efficient and reliable, unlike the
    fabulously expensive fantasy that the greens are foisting on us.

    +1
    +2

    --
    “when things get difficult you just have to lie”

    ― Jean Claud Jüncker

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Spike@21:1/5 to TimW on Tue Jan 28 14:16:19 2025
    TimW <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 22/01/2025 19:26, Tim Streater wrote:
    [...]

    I expect them to provide energy 24 x 7. How they do it is not my business. >>
    [...] If you can't make a plausible suggestion then I suggest you
    STFU until you can.
    [...]
    So it's not your business to organise a national energy policy, but
    somehow you think it is mine?

    Actually it isn't my job to do that, but luckily we have a government
    that takes its obligations seriously and here is a recent HofC research Briefing on progress and plans: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9888/

    "We (the UN/IPCC) redistribute de facto the world's wealth by climate policy..."

    Dr Ottmar Endenhofer of the IPCC went on to say: "One has to free oneself
    from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental
    policy. This has almost nothing to do with environmental policy any
    more..."

    --
    Spike

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From TimW@21:1/5 to Spike on Tue Jan 28 18:48:08 2025
    On 28/01/2025 14:16, Spike wrote:

    "We (the UN/IPCC) redistribute de facto the world's wealth by climate policy..."

    Dr Ottmar Endenhofer of the IPCC went on to say: "One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental
    policy. This has almost nothing to do with environmental policy any
    more..."

    I am really unimpressed that you should copy-paste some out of context meme-quotes without having the faintest clue what Endenhofer was saying,
    why and to who. I guess you don't have the intellectual curiosity to
    find out? Or maybe you have an autistic inability to understand subtlety
    and intention of meaning, or maybe you just don't care and think it
    looks edgy and clever to chant the phrases you learned from Breitbart.

    His point was that we need to understand that even if everybody
    understands the need to cut emissions it will always be hard to get international agreement because the countries that produce fossil fuels
    will find that their bonanza years are over when we de-carbon. A point
    so simple and so obviously true that it's difficult to know what the
    problem is.

    Oh, maybe you are triggered by the truth stated plainly?

    TW

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tim Streater@21:1/5 to Spike on Tue Jan 28 22:42:24 2025
    On 28 Jan 2025 at 22:32:04 GMT, "Spike" <[email protected]> wrote:

    TimW <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 28/01/2025 14:16, Spike wrote:

    "We (the UN/IPCC) redistribute de facto the world's wealth by climate
    policy..."

    Dr Ottmar Endenhofer of the IPCC went on to say: "One has to free oneself >>> from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental
    policy. This has almost nothing to do with environmental policy any
    more..."

    I am really unimpressed that you should copy-paste some out of context
    meme-quotes without having the faintest clue what Endenhofer was saying,
    why and to who. I guess you don't have the intellectual curiosity to
    find out? Or maybe you have an autistic inability to understand subtlety
    and intention of meaning, or maybe you just don't care and think it
    looks edgy and clever to chant the phrases you learned from Breitbart.

    His point was that we need to understand that even if everybody
    understands the need to cut emissions it will always be hard to get
    international agreement because the countries that produce fossil fuels
    will find that their bonanza years are over when we de-carbon. A point
    so simple and so obviously true that it's difficult to know what the
    problem is.

    Oh, maybe you are triggered by the truth stated plainly?

    You seem somewhat touchy about mentions of declarations of wealth redistribution disguised as climate policy which are in turn based on false science. The last I heard, from the 65,000-attendee COP29, was that ‘affected countries’ were demanding well over a trillion dollars annually.
    That’s a hefty amount of wealth redistribution. And none of it will affect the planet’s orbital parameters, cosmic ray flux, or variability of the Sun’s output.

    It's also demanding money with menaces - just as we see with the slavery reparations bollocks.

    --
    All of science is either physics or stamp-collecting.

    Ernest Rutherford

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Spike@21:1/5 to TimW on Tue Jan 28 22:32:04 2025
    TimW <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 28/01/2025 14:16, Spike wrote:

    "We (the UN/IPCC) redistribute de facto the world's wealth by climate
    policy..."

    Dr Ottmar Endenhofer of the IPCC went on to say: "One has to free oneself
    from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental
    policy. This has almost nothing to do with environmental policy any
    more..."

    I am really unimpressed that you should copy-paste some out of context meme-quotes without having the faintest clue what Endenhofer was saying,
    why and to who. I guess you don't have the intellectual curiosity to
    find out? Or maybe you have an autistic inability to understand subtlety
    and intention of meaning, or maybe you just don't care and think it
    looks edgy and clever to chant the phrases you learned from Breitbart.

    His point was that we need to understand that even if everybody
    understands the need to cut emissions it will always be hard to get international agreement because the countries that produce fossil fuels
    will find that their bonanza years are over when we de-carbon. A point
    so simple and so obviously true that it's difficult to know what the
    problem is.

    Oh, maybe you are triggered by the truth stated plainly?

    You seem somewhat touchy about mentions of declarations of wealth redistribution disguised as climate policy which are in turn based on false science. The last I heard, from the 65,000-attendee COP29, was that
    ‘affected countries’ were demanding well over a trillion dollars annually. That’s a hefty amount of wealth redistribution. And none of it will affect the planet’s orbital parameters, cosmic ray flux, or variability of the Sun’s output.

    --
    Spike

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Spike on Tue Jan 28 23:43:54 2025
    On 28/01/2025 22:32, Spike wrote:
    TimW <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 28/01/2025 14:16, Spike wrote:

    "We (the UN/IPCC) redistribute de facto the world's wealth by climate
    policy..."

    Dr Ottmar Endenhofer of the IPCC went on to say: "One has to free oneself >>> from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental
    policy. This has almost nothing to do with environmental policy any
    more..."

    I am really unimpressed that you should copy-paste some out of context
    meme-quotes without having the faintest clue what Endenhofer was saying,
    why and to who. I guess you don't have the intellectual curiosity to
    find out? Or maybe you have an autistic inability to understand subtlety
    and intention of meaning, or maybe you just don't care and think it
    looks edgy and clever to chant the phrases you learned from Breitbart.

    His point was that we need to understand that even if everybody
    understands the need to cut emissions it will always be hard to get
    international agreement because the countries that produce fossil fuels
    will find that their bonanza years are over when we de-carbon. A point
    so simple and so obviously true that it's difficult to know what the
    problem is.

    Oh, maybe you are triggered by the truth stated plainly?

    You seem somewhat touchy about mentions of declarations of wealth redistribution disguised as climate policy which are in turn based on false science. The last I heard, from the 65,000-attendee COP29, was that ‘affected countries’ were demanding well over a trillion dollars annually.
    That’s a hefty amount of wealth redistribution. And none of it will affect the planet’s orbital parameters, cosmic ray flux, or variability of the Sun’s output.

    Or make a wind turbine turn in a flat calm or solar panel work at midnight.

    Its all about the technocrats controlling energy. For all the money
    spend the rate of rise of CO2 hasn't changed at all.

    It will end up at 500ppm probably with very little alteration in global climate.

    --
    All political activity makes complete sense once the proposition that
    all government is basically a self-legalising protection racket, is
    fully understood.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From ajh@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Jan 30 11:13:08 2025
    On 28/01/2025 23:43, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    It will end up at 500ppm

    Yes I think so but it's one of those things I will never know



    probably with very little alteration in global
    climate.

    That I doubt and it is yet another.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to ajh on Thu Jan 30 15:13:37 2025
    On 30/01/2025 11:13, ajh wrote:
    On 28/01/2025 23:43, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    It will end up at 500ppm

    Yes I think so but it's one of those things I will never know



    probably with very little alteration in global climate.

    That I doubt and it is yet another.

    Its been higher than that - way higher, and the earth survived.
    Geologically it has never been lower than post the last ice age.

    Ice cores reveal that CO2 in the atmosphere is caused by global warming
    and usually happens a couple of hundred years later.
    A couple of hundred years ago the 'Little Ice Age' ended....

    --
    "Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
    conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
    windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

    Alan Sokal

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From ajh@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Jan 30 18:03:43 2025
    On 30/01/2025 15:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 30/01/2025 11:13, ajh wrote:
    On 28/01/2025 23:43, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    It will end up at 500ppm

    Yes I think so but it's one of those things I will never know



    probably with very little alteration in global climate.

    That I doubt and it is yet another.

    Its been higher than that - way higher, and the earth survived.
    Geologically it has never been lower than post the last ice age.

    Ice cores reveal that CO2 in the atmosphere is caused by global warming
    and usually happens a couple of hundred years later.
    A couple of hundred years ago  the 'Little Ice Age' ended....


    Not something I am prepared to argue over on this forum, I accept our
    views differ, and the two statements are not linked.

    The british antartic survey cores show that 300ppm was not exceeded in
    the last 800,000 years, (about when modern humans evolved from earlier hominids), till about the iron age when humans gained the ability to cut
    down forest for agriculture.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tim Streater@21:1/5 to ajh on Thu Jan 30 22:25:51 2025
    On 30 Jan 2025 at 18:03:43 GMT, "ajh" <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 30/01/2025 15:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 30/01/2025 11:13, ajh wrote:
    On 28/01/2025 23:43, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    It will end up at 500ppm

    Yes I think so but it's one of those things I will never know

    probably with very little alteration in global climate.

    That I doubt and it is yet another.

    Its been higher than that - way higher, and the earth survived.
    Geologically it has never been lower than post the last ice age.

    Ice cores reveal that CO2 in the atmosphere is caused by global warming
    and usually happens a couple of hundred years later.
    A couple of hundred years ago the 'Little Ice Age' ended....

    Not something I am prepared to argue over on this forum, I accept our
    views differ, and the two statements are not linked.

    The british antartic survey cores show that 300ppm was not exceeded in
    the last 800,000 years, (about when modern humans evolved from earlier hominids), till about the iron age when humans gained the ability to cut
    down forest for agriculture.

    800k years? That's nothing.

    --
    Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.

    Terry Pratchett

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to ajh on Thu Jan 30 22:50:21 2025
    On 30/01/2025 18:03, ajh wrote:
    On 30/01/2025 15:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 30/01/2025 11:13, ajh wrote:
    On 28/01/2025 23:43, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    It will end up at 500ppm

    Yes I think so but it's one of those things I will never know



    probably with very little alteration in global climate.

    That I doubt and it is yet another.

    Its been higher than that - way higher, and the earth survived.
    Geologically it has never been lower than post the last ice age.

    Ice cores reveal that CO2 in the atmosphere is caused by global
    warming and usually happens a couple of hundred years later.
    A couple of hundred years ago  the 'Little Ice Age' ended....


    Not something I am prepared to argue over on this forum, I accept our
    views differ, and the two statements are not linked.

    Its not 'views'. Its *facts* https://www.geolsoc.org.uk/Education-and-Careers/Ask-a-Geologist/Earths-Climate/The-Relationship-Between-CO2-and-Temperature

    The british antartic survey cores show that 300ppm was not exceeded in
    the last 800,000 years, (about when modern humans evolved from earlier hominids), till about the iron age when humans gained the ability to cut
    down forest for agriculture.

    A mere snap of the 4 billion years the planet has been around of which multicellular life occupies the last 600million...

    In fact the 800,000 is cherry picked to the exact time at which falling
    CO2 stabilised to a level so low that plants could barely survive.

    https://earth.org/data_visualization/a-brief-history-of-co2/





    --
    Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns.

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  • From TimW@21:1/5 to Tim Streater on Fri Jan 31 13:55:34 2025
    On 30/01/2025 22:25, Tim Streater wrote:
    On 30 Jan 2025 at 18:03:43 GMT, "ajh" <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 30/01/2025 15:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 30/01/2025 11:13, ajh wrote:
    On 28/01/2025 23:43, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    It will end up at 500ppm

    Yes I think so but it's one of those things I will never know

    probably with very little alteration in global climate.

    That I doubt and it is yet another.

    Its been higher than that - way higher, and the earth survived.
    Geologically it has never been lower than post the last ice age.

    Ice cores reveal that CO2 in the atmosphere is caused by global warming
    and usually happens a couple of hundred years later.
    A couple of hundred years ago the 'Little Ice Age' ended....

    Not something I am prepared to argue over on this forum, I accept our
    views differ, and the two statements are not linked.

    The british antartic survey cores show that 300ppm was not exceeded in
    the last 800,000 years, (about when modern humans evolved from earlier
    hominids), till about the iron age when humans gained the ability to cut
    down forest for agriculture.

    800k years? That's nothing.


    It isn't nothing, it's already been explained to you. Pointing to CO2
    levels back in geological time and saying 'the earth survived' is about
    as stupid as it gets. The earth will survive, but our fragile economies
    and ecosystems? unlikely. You may as well point at Mars and say look!
    loads of CO2 there, what's the problem?

    TW

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  • From Spike@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Jan 31 14:46:49 2025
    The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On 30/01/2025 18:03, ajh wrote:

    Its not 'views'. Its *facts* <https://www.geolsoc.org.uk/Education-and-Careers/Ask-a-Geologist/Earths-Climate/The-Relationship-Between-CO2-and-Temperature>

    The british antartic survey cores show that 300ppm was not exceeded in
    the last 800,000 years, (about when modern humans evolved from earlier
    hominids), till about the iron age when humans gained the ability to cut
    down forest for agriculture.

    A mere snap of the 4 billion years the planet has been around of which multicellular life occupies the last 600million...

    In fact the 800,000 is cherry picked to the exact time at which falling
    CO2 stabilised to a level so low that plants could barely survive.

    <https://earth.org/data_visualization/a-brief-history-of-co2/>

    That article concludes with this message:

    “Looking back at the 2 extra degrees of warmth last time CO2 levels were
    this high (Pliocene era, 3 million years ago), should be enough of a call
    to action considering the damage two more degrees would cause today.”

    The questions to ask here are ‘What damage did the temperatures of the Pliocene era do, some 3 million years ago?’, and ‘How was such damage determined?’

    --
    Spike

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Spike on Fri Jan 31 17:51:39 2025
    On 31/01/2025 14:46, Spike wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On 30/01/2025 18:03, ajh wrote:

    Its not 'views'. Its *facts*
    <https://www.geolsoc.org.uk/Education-and-Careers/Ask-a-Geologist/Earths-Climate/The-Relationship-Between-CO2-and-Temperature>

    The british antartic survey cores show that 300ppm was not exceeded in
    the last 800,000 years, (about when modern humans evolved from earlier
    hominids), till about the iron age when humans gained the ability to cut >>> down forest for agriculture.

    A mere snap of the 4 billion years the planet has been around of which
    multicellular life occupies the last 600million...

    In fact the 800,000 is cherry picked to the exact time at which falling
    CO2 stabilised to a level so low that plants could barely survive.

    <https://earth.org/data_visualization/a-brief-history-of-co2/>

    That article concludes with this message:

    “Looking back at the 2 extra degrees of warmth last time CO2 levels were this high (Pliocene era, 3 million years ago), should be enough of a call
    to action considering the damage two more degrees would cause today.”

    The questions to ask here are ‘What damage did the temperatures of the Pliocene era do, some 3 million years ago?’, and ‘How was such damage determined?’

    Well exactly. The data is reasonably factual, but the OneTrueMessage™
    has to be mentioned so that stupid people who cant understand the data
    will get all panicked over climate change

    Wiki:
    "The world continued to get cooler and drier in the Pliocene. Tropical
    rain forests and deciduous forests shrank. Grasslands grew, and many herbivorous mammals became grazers instead of browsers. Of this we are
    certain, because their teeth tell us what kind of food they ate.
    Browsers eat leaves and small branches, and grazers eat grass. The
    concept of mesowear deals with this. Mesowear is a method based on
    animals' tooth wear fingerprints. Each animal has special feeding
    habits, which cause unique tooth wear. Rough feeds cause serious tooth abrasion, while smooth one triggers moderate abrasion. So browsers have
    teeth with moderate abrasion and grazers have teeth with rough
    abrasion.[2] Seeing the teeth of browsers next to those of grazers is convincing."

    So CO2 was higher but temperature actually fell and so did rainfall.

    --
    Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the
    gospel of envy.

    Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

    Winston Churchill

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