• Re: Thermostatic radiator valve failure

    From Peter James@21:1/5 to Peter James on Thu Dec 8 08:17:24 2022
    On 8 Dec 2022 at 08:15:22 GMT, "Peter James" <[email protected]> wrote:

    A thermostatic valve on the radiator in the spare room appears to have failed.
    It will turn without any resistance, and the radiator will not warm up. The other radiators in the system are working OK. Unfortunately the spare room is where the computer is, and I spend up to three or fours hours a day in that room.

    Other than calling in my local plumber, what are my options? Is it possible for an unsilled person to change the valve without having to drain down the system?
    Peter

    My apologies, wrong NG. Copying to uk d-i-y
    --
    The email shown is false. If you need to contact me then try peterATpfjamesDOTcoDOTuk

    Addresses are given to us to conceal our whereabouts.
    Saki (H.H.Munro) 1870 - 1916

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  • From Joerg Lorenz@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 8 10:13:36 2022
    Am 08.12.22 um 09:15 schrieb Peter James:
    A thermostatic valve on the radiator in the spare room appears to have failed.
    It will turn without any resistance, and the radiator will not warm up. The other radiators in the system are working OK. Unfortunately the spare room is where the computer is, and I spend up to three or fours hours a day in that room.

    Open it to Max and then pull the thermostat off. Leave the rest to the
    expert.

    --
    Gutta cavat lapidem (Ovid)

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  • From Chris Ridd@21:1/5 to Peter James on Thu Dec 8 08:49:33 2022
    On 08/12/2022 08:17, Peter James wrote:
    On 8 Dec 2022 at 08:15:22 GMT, "Peter James" <[email protected]> wrote:

    A thermostatic valve on the radiator in the spare room appears to have failed.
    It will turn without any resistance, and the radiator will not warm up. The
    other radiators in the system are working OK. Unfortunately the spare room is
    where the computer is, and I spend up to three or fours hours a day in that >> room.

    Other than calling in my local plumber, what are my options? Is it possible >> for an unsilled person to change the valve without having to drain down the >> system?
    Peter

    My apologies, wrong NG. Copying to uk d-i-y

    If this is the TRV thingy (stop me if I'm being too technical) that you
    remove when you install a smart radiator valve, then yep - unscrew the
    old one and screw on the new one. No bleeding of bleeding radiators
    required.

    --
    Chris

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  • From Peter James@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 8 08:15:22 2022
    A thermostatic valve on the radiator in the spare room appears to have failed.
    It will turn without any resistance, and the radiator will not warm up. The other radiators in the system are working OK. Unfortunately the spare room is where the computer is, and I spend up to three or fours hours a day in that room.

    Other than calling in my local plumber, what are my options? Is it possible
    for an unsilled person to change the valve without having to drain down the system?
    Peter
    --
    The email shown is false. If you need to contact me then try peterATpfjamesDOTcoDOTuk

    Addresses are given to us to conceal our whereabouts.
    Saki (H.H.Munro) 1870 - 1916

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  • From Graham J@21:1/5 to Richard Tobin on Thu Dec 8 09:49:02 2022
    Richard Tobin wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>,
    Peter James <[email protected]> wrote:
    A thermostatic valve on the radiator in the spare room appears to have failed.
    It will turn without any resistance, and the radiator will not warm up.

    The romovable top part of the valve pushes on a pin in the lower part
    to stop the flow of water. The most likely problem is that the pin has become jammed in the down position. You may be able to free it by
    tapping the the side of the lower part after removing the top part,
    but it probably needs replacing.

    What make is it?

    I had Drayton valves about 25 years ago - they all needed replacement
    within about 2 years of installation. The part which shuts of the water
    flow jammed closed, and no amount of removing the thermostatic control
    and pulling out the pin would achieve anything. If you can get two
    hammers and clout the valve from opposite sides simultaneously - and
    really hard - that might un-jam it.

    I replaced them all with Honeywell and they've worked OK since - but the general design is the same. The valve is opened by a spring, and closed
    by the expansion of the fluid in the thermostatic control; so if the
    mechanism jams and the spring is not powerful enough to open it - tough.

    Ideally the radiator and thermostatic valve combination should be
    connected via isolating taps, so you can remove the whole assembly for maintenance or redecoration without draining the whole system. It helps
    if there's a drain cock on the radiator itself so you don't spill dirty
    water as you disconnect everything. But I've only seen this very
    rarely. Plumbers want to charge you to drain the sysem down and refill
    it with expensive inhibitor every time anything needs attention.


    --
    Graham J

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  • From J. J. Lodder@21:1/5 to Peter James on Thu Dec 8 10:28:24 2022
    Peter James <[email protected]> wrote:

    A thermostatic valve on the radiator in the spare room appears to have failed.
    It will turn without any resistance, and the radiator will not warm up. The other radiators in the system are working OK. Unfortunately the spare room is where the computer is, and I spend up to three or fours hours a day in that room.

    Other than calling in my local plumber, what are my options? Is it possible for an unsilled person to change the valve without having to drain down the system?
    Peter

    No failure at all. This is just the pin getting stuck.
    Common problem with old Danfoss things and the like.
    The remedy: take off the head,
    and pull out the pin with needle-nose plyers.
    Next give the valve some smart taps with a small hammer,
    if possible from behind.
    Don't be afraid to hit hard,
    it is the shock and vibration that you want.

    If all goes well you will feel the heat coming through,
    put the head back.
    If it is free the pin will come out by itself after being pushed in.
    No valve changing will be needed.

    And once loose, it will remain loose, as long as it is used.
    Next year, remember to open the valve once a month or so
    to prevent it from getting stuck.

    Jan
    (sorry, don't follow you other group)

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  • From Richard Tobin@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Thu Dec 8 09:30:28 2022
    In article <[email protected]>,
    Peter James <[email protected]> wrote:
    A thermostatic valve on the radiator in the spare room appears to have failed.
    It will turn without any resistance, and the radiator will not warm up.

    The romovable top part of the valve pushes on a pin in the lower part
    to stop the flow of water. The most likely problem is that the pin has
    become jammed in the down position. You may be able to free it by
    tapping the the side of the lower part after removing the top part,
    but it probably needs replacing.

    -- Richard

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  • From Alan B@21:1/5 to Graham J on Thu Dec 8 10:45:55 2022
    Graham J <[email protected]> wrote:
    Richard Tobin wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>,
    Peter James <[email protected]> wrote:
    A thermostatic valve on the radiator in the spare room appears to have failed.
    It will turn without any resistance, and the radiator will not warm up.

    The romovable top part of the valve pushes on a pin in the lower part
    to stop the flow of water. The most likely problem is that the pin has
    become jammed in the down position. You may be able to free it by
    tapping the the side of the lower part after removing the top part,
    but it probably needs replacing.

    What make is it?

    I had Drayton valves about 25 years ago - they all needed replacement
    within about 2 years of installation. The part which shuts of the water
    flow jammed closed, and no amount of removing the thermostatic control
    and pulling out the pin would achieve anything. If you can get two
    hammers and clout the valve from opposite sides simultaneously - and
    really hard - that might un-jam it.

    I replaced them all with Honeywell and they've worked OK since - but the general design is the same. The valve is opened by a spring, and closed
    by the expansion of the fluid in the thermostatic control; so if the mechanism jams and the spring is not powerful enough to open it - tough.

    Ideally the radiator and thermostatic valve combination should be
    connected via isolating taps, so you can remove the whole assembly for maintenance or redecoration without draining the whole system. It helps
    if there's a drain cock on the radiator itself so you don't spill dirty
    water as you disconnect everything. But I've only seen this very
    rarely. Plumbers want to charge you to drain the sysem down and refill
    it with expensive inhibitor every time anything needs attention.

    Ours appear to be Bulldog. I rarely touch them though. Any view on those?

    --
    Cheers, Alan

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  • From Graham J@21:1/5 to Alan B on Thu Dec 8 12:49:33 2022
    Alan B wrote:

    [snip]


    Ours appear to be Bulldog. I rarely touch them though. Any view on those?


    Sorry, no experience of them. But all the designs are similar, so
    suffer from the fundamental problem that there is no positive opening mechanism. A motorised valve with position feedback is probably the
    only rational design solution ...


    --
    Graham J

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  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to J. J. Lodder on Thu Dec 8 12:59:10 2022
    J. J. Lodder <[email protected]> wrote:

    Peter James <[email protected]> wrote:

    A thermostatic valve on the radiator in the spare room appears to have failed. It will turn without any resistance, and the radiator will not
    warm up. The other radiators in the system are working OK. Unfortunately the spare room is where the computer is, and I spend up to three or
    fours hours a day in that room.

    Other than calling in my local plumber, what are my options? Is it possible for an unsilled person to change the valve without having to drain down the system?
    Peter

    No failure at all. This is just the pin getting stuck.
    Common problem with old Danfoss things and the like.
    The remedy: take off the head,
    and pull out the pin with needle-nose plyers.
    Next give the valve some smart taps with a small hammer,
    if possible from behind.
    Don't be afraid to hit hard,
    it is the shock and vibration that you want.

    If all goes well you will feel the heat coming through,
    put the head back.
    If it is free the pin will come out by itself after being pushed in.
    No valve changing will be needed.

    And once loose, it will remain loose, as long as it is used.
    Next year, remember to open the valve once a month or so
    to prevent it from getting stuck.

    Jan
    (sorry, don't follow you other group)

    I have experienced this problem and can confirm that Jan has given good
    advice.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

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  • From David Brooks@21:1/5 to Liz Tuddenham on Thu Dec 8 14:16:57 2022
    On 08/12/2022 12:59, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    J. J. Lodder <[email protected]> wrote:

    Peter James <[email protected]> wrote:

    A thermostatic valve on the radiator in the spare room appears to have
    failed. It will turn without any resistance, and the radiator will not
    warm up. The other radiators in the system are working OK. Unfortunately >>> the spare room is where the computer is, and I spend up to three or
    fours hours a day in that room.

    Other than calling in my local plumber, what are my options? Is it possible >>> for an unsilled person to change the valve without having to drain down the >>> system?
    Peter

    No failure at all. This is just the pin getting stuck.
    Common problem with old Danfoss things and the like.
    The remedy: take off the head,
    and pull out the pin with needle-nose plyers.
    Next give the valve some smart taps with a small hammer,
    if possible from behind.
    Don't be afraid to hit hard,
    it is the shock and vibration that you want.

    If all goes well you will feel the heat coming through,
    put the head back.
    If it is free the pin will come out by itself after being pushed in.
    No valve changing will be needed.

    And once loose, it will remain loose, as long as it is used.
    Next year, remember to open the valve once a month or so
    to prevent it from getting stuck.

    Jan
    (sorry, don't follow you other group)

    I have experienced this problem and can confirm that Jan has given good advice.

    Seconded! 🙂

    'Working' the valve(s) from time to time helps to keep them functional.

    --
    Kind regards,
    David

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  • From David Kennedy@21:1/5 to Chris Ridd on Thu Dec 8 15:04:29 2022
    On 08/12/2022 08:49, Chris Ridd wrote:
    On 08/12/2022 08:17, Peter James wrote:
    On 8 Dec 2022 at 08:15:22 GMT, "Peter James" <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    A thermostatic valve on the radiator in the spare room appears to
    have failed.
      It will turn without any resistance, and the radiator will not warm
    up. The
    other radiators in the system are working OK. Unfortunately the spare
    room is
    where the computer is, and I spend up to three or fours hours a day
    in that
    room.

    Other than calling in my local plumber, what are my options? Is it
    possible
    for an unsilled person to change the valve without having to drain
    down the
    system?
    Peter

    My apologies, wrong NG.  Copying to uk d-i-y

    If this is the TRV thingy (stop me if I'm being too technical) that you remove when you install a smart radiator valve, then yep - unscrew the
    old one and screw on the new one. No bleeding of bleeding radiators
    required.


    And, if you do, install a smart one.

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  • From Graham J@21:1/5 to RJH on Fri Dec 9 09:01:53 2022
    RJH wrote:

    [snip]

    It is - I would just add that the OP should ease the pin up gingerly, and don't force it or twist - the pins have been known to come out.


    The ones I've seen are designed to come out. They slide into a rubber
    (?) gasket which makse the watertight seal.



    --
    Graham J

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  • From RJH@21:1/5 to Liz Tuddenham on Fri Dec 9 08:53:00 2022
    On 8 Dec 2022 at 12:59:10 GMT, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

    J. J. Lodder <[email protected]> wrote:

    Peter James <[email protected]> wrote:

    A thermostatic valve on the radiator in the spare room appears to have
    failed. It will turn without any resistance, and the radiator will not
    warm up. The other radiators in the system are working OK. Unfortunately >>> the spare room is where the computer is, and I spend up to three or
    fours hours a day in that room.

    Other than calling in my local plumber, what are my options? Is it possible >>> for an unsilled person to change the valve without having to drain down the >>> system?
    Peter

    No failure at all. This is just the pin getting stuck.
    Common problem with old Danfoss things and the like.
    The remedy: take off the head,
    and pull out the pin with needle-nose plyers.
    Next give the valve some smart taps with a small hammer,
    if possible from behind.
    Don't be afraid to hit hard,
    it is the shock and vibration that you want.

    If all goes well you will feel the heat coming through,
    put the head back.
    If it is free the pin will come out by itself after being pushed in.
    No valve changing will be needed.

    And once loose, it will remain loose, as long as it is used.
    Next year, remember to open the valve once a month or so
    to prevent it from getting stuck.

    Jan
    (sorry, don't follow you other group)

    I have experienced this problem and can confirm that Jan has given good advice.

    It is - I would just add that the OP should ease the pin up gingerly, and
    don't force it or twist - the pins have been known to come out.

    --
    Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK

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  • From Jaimie Vandenbergh@21:1/5 to Graham J on Fri Dec 9 09:17:50 2022
    On 9 Dec 2022 at 09:01:53 GMT, "Graham J" <[email protected]> wrote:

    RJH wrote:

    [snip]

    It is - I would just add that the OP should ease the pin up gingerly, and
    don't force it or twist - the pins have been known to come out.


    The ones I've seen are designed to come out. They slide into a rubber
    (?) gasket which makse the watertight seal.

    Both sealed and unsealed exist, so pulling the pin is a risk. Tapping
    the body of the valve unit with a spanner or pliers until the pin pops
    up by itself is the recommended safe method. And then replacing it if it doesn't, or if it sticks again.

    Cheers - Jaimie
    --
    Imagine how happy you might be if you spent less time
    imagining how happy you might be.
    -- j comeau, a softer world

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  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to RJH on Fri Dec 9 09:24:45 2022
    RJH <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 8 Dec 2022 at 12:59:10 GMT, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

    J. J. Lodder <[email protected]> wrote:

    Peter James <[email protected]> wrote:

    A thermostatic valve on the radiator in the spare room appears to have >>> failed. It will turn without any resistance, and the radiator will not >>> warm up. The other radiators in the system are working OK. Unfortunately >>> the spare room is where the computer is, and I spend up to three or
    fours hours a day in that room.

    Other than calling in my local plumber, what are my options? Is it
    possible for an unsilled person to change the valve without having to
    drain down the system? Peter

    No failure at all. This is just the pin getting stuck.
    Common problem with old Danfoss things and the like.
    The remedy: take off the head,
    and pull out the pin with needle-nose plyers.
    Next give the valve some smart taps with a small hammer,
    if possible from behind.
    Don't be afraid to hit hard,
    it is the shock and vibration that you want.

    If all goes well you will feel the heat coming through,
    put the head back.
    If it is free the pin will come out by itself after being pushed in.
    No valve changing will be needed.

    And once loose, it will remain loose, as long as it is used.
    Next year, remember to open the valve once a month or so
    to prevent it from getting stuck.

    Jan
    (sorry, don't follow you other group)

    I have experienced this problem and can confirm that Jan has given good advice.

    It is - I would just add that the OP should ease the pin up gingerly, and don't force it or twist - the pins have been known to come out.

    You've reminded me - I've had that happen too. Best to wait until the
    heating has been off for a while and the water isn't very hot, otherwise
    it could be painful trying to replace the pin.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

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  • From J. J. Lodder@21:1/5 to RJH on Fri Dec 9 16:29:07 2022
    RJH <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 8 Dec 2022 at 12:59:10 GMT, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

    J. J. Lodder <[email protected]> wrote:

    Peter James <[email protected]> wrote:

    A thermostatic valve on the radiator in the spare room appears to have >>> failed. It will turn without any resistance, and the radiator will not >>> warm up. The other radiators in the system are working OK. Unfortunately >>> the spare room is where the computer is, and I spend up to three or
    fours hours a day in that room.

    Other than calling in my local plumber, what are my options? Is it
    possible for an unsilled person to change the valve without having to
    drain down the system?
    Peter

    No failure at all. This is just the pin getting stuck.
    Common problem with old Danfoss things and the like.
    The remedy: take off the head,
    and pull out the pin with needle-nose plyers.
    Next give the valve some smart taps with a small hammer,
    if possible from behind.
    Don't be afraid to hit hard,
    it is the shock and vibration that you want.

    If all goes well you will feel the heat coming through,
    put the head back.
    If it is free the pin will come out by itself after being pushed in.
    No valve changing will be needed.

    And once loose, it will remain loose, as long as it is used.
    Next year, remember to open the valve once a month or so
    to prevent it from getting stuck.

    Jan
    (sorry, don't follow you other group)

    I have experienced this problem and can confirm that Jan has given good advice.

    It is - I would just add that the OP should ease the pin up gingerly, and don't force it or twist - the pins have been known to come out.

    At least for Danfoss they don't.
    Forgot about another possible remedy:
    tap the pin down gently, many times,
    to see if that will make the valve move.
    Don't hit it hard.

    Jan

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  • From Peter James@21:1/5 to Peter James on Sun Dec 11 09:43:48 2022
    On 8 Dec 2022 at 08:15:22 GMT, "Peter James" <[email protected]> wrote:

    A thermostatic valve on the radiator in the spare room appears to have failed.
    It will turn without any resistance, and the radiator will not warm up. The other radiators in the system are working OK. Unfortunately the spare room is where the computer is, and I spend up to three or fours hours a day in that room.

    Other than calling in my local plumber, what are my options? Is it possible for an unsilled person to change the valve without having to drain down the system?
    Peter

    Thank you for all of the advice. I tried tapping the valve body with a
    hammer, and lo and behold it worked. Thanks t o you all, and also to the Christmas Fairy.
    Peter
    --
    The email shown is false. If you need to contact me then try peterATpfjamesDOTcoDOTuk

    Addresses are given to us to conceal our whereabouts.
    Saki (H.H.Munro) 1870 - 1916

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  • From J. J. Lodder@21:1/5 to Peter James on Mon Dec 12 10:52:26 2022
    Peter James <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 8 Dec 2022 at 08:15:22 GMT, "Peter James" <[email protected]> wrote:

    A thermostatic valve on the radiator in the spare room appears to have failed. It will turn without any resistance, and the radiator will not
    warm up. The other radiators in the system are working OK. Unfortunately the spare room is where the computer is, and I spend up to three or
    fours hours a day in that room.

    Other than calling in my local plumber, what are my options? Is it
    possible for an unsilled person to change the valve without having to
    drain down the system?
    Peter

    Thank you for all of the advice. I tried tapping the valve body with a hammer, and lo and behold it worked. Thanks t o you all, and also to the Christmas Fairy.

    And one last hint:
    you can test the valve without wasting heat.
    Turn the valve to wide open, and then -slowly- turn it back again.
    At a certain position you will hear noise from turbulence
    at the nearly closed valve. Close some more and it disappears.

    If you can't hear that your valve is stuck,
    or your computer is too noisy,

    Jan

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