It's almost 40 years since I had exactly the same BBC Micro set-up as
the one which Eben is sitting next to!
You may find his talk as fascinating as I did when first I heard it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSnaxD2HSdc
Does the video bring back any memories for you?
--
Kind regards,
David
PS This was the alternative on offer way back then! https://www.macrumors.com/2020/01/24/macintosh-36th-anniversary/
On Monday, 5 December 2022 at 10:27:49 UTC, David Brooks wrote:
It's almost 40 years since I had exactly the same BBC Micro set-up as
the one which Eben is sitting next to!
You may find his talk as fascinating as I did when first I heard it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSnaxD2HSdc
Does the video bring back any memories for you?
Yes I had a BBC of my own, and about 20 in the department , I was even sent on the Apple repaiir training course .
We had then with floppy drives , but by about 1984 they started being replaced by PCs and the first Apple Macs 128K, 512K
When the Mac Plus came out I switched from BBC support to Mac support.
But the BBC was still far better for games which never really happened for Macs until after the pizza box Macs came out.
PS This was the alternative on offer way back then!
https://www.macrumors.com/2020/01/24/macintosh-36th-anniversary/
On 06/12/2022 13:11, whisky-dave wrote:
On Monday, 5 December 2022 at 10:27:49 UTC, David Brooks wrote:
It's almost 40 years since I had exactly the same BBC Micro set-up as
the one which Eben is sitting next to!
You may find his talk as fascinating as I did when first I heard it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSnaxD2HSdc
Does the video bring back any memories for you?
Yes I had a BBC of my own, and about 20 in the department , I was even sent on the Apple repaiir training course .That must have been useful experience!
We had then with floppy drives , but by about 1984 they started being replaced by PCs and the first Apple Macs 128K, 512KI just Googled .... https://www.google.com/search?source=univ&tbm=isch&q=pizza+box+Mac
When the Mac Plus came out I switched from BBC support to Mac support.
But the BBC was still far better for games which never really happened for Macs until after the pizza box Macs came out.
I've never seen or used one of those. My introduction to the Apple
'proper' was when I bought a 24 inch iMac in 2009.
It's hard to believe that it's nearly 5 years since I bought my current
iMac 27 inch with Retina dispay. I just love it!
PS This was the alternative on offer way back then!
https://www.macrumors.com/2020/01/24/macintosh-36th-anniversary/
On Tuesday, 6 December 2022 at 15:33:33 UTC, David Brooks wrote:
On 06/12/2022 13:11, whisky-dave wrote:
On Monday, 5 December 2022 at 10:27:49 UTC, David Brooks wrote:That must have been useful experience!
It's almost 40 years since I had exactly the same BBC Micro set-up as
the one which Eben is sitting next to!
You may find his talk as fascinating as I did when first I heard it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSnaxD2HSdc
Does the video bring back any memories for you?
Yes I had a BBC of my own, and about 20 in the department , I was even sent on the Apple repaiir training course .
It was I still have the manuals somewhere, repairing at chip level isn;t done anymore even swapping boards is rare.
We had then with floppy drives , but by about 1984 they started being replaced by PCs and the first Apple Macs 128K, 512KI just Googled ....
When the Mac Plus came out I switched from BBC support to Mac support.
But the BBC was still far better for games which never really happened for Macs until after the pizza box Macs came out.
https://www.google.com/search?source=univ&tbm=isch&q=pizza+box+Mac
The first Mac I bought was a LC 475 . 25 MHz 4-8MB or ram :-) But you could up the speed by hacking the board to get 33MHz :-) Still in the loft.
The ones in the lab were the LCs LC II and LC III , but the academics Mac Mac II and quadras
We drilled a hole in the top of the case right the way through them to secure them to the table using a M8 or M10 locknut the types that go on cars
Stopped them gettign moved or stolen and yuo needed to unlock them to add memory.
new models were brought out much more frequently then. Within 18 months you felt pretty much out of date.
I've never seen or used one of those. My introduction to the Apple
'proper' was when I bought a 24 inch iMac in 2009.
A newbie ;-)
It's hard to believe that it's nearly 5 years since I bought my current
iMac 27 inch with Retina dispay. I just love it!
Think mine is 7-8 years old.
Think I might update next year but my 27" retina iMac is still OK , trouble is looks like I'll have to get a studio Mac
and external monitor.
PS This was the alternative on offer way back then!
https://www.macrumors.com/2020/01/24/macintosh-36th-anniversary/
On 06/12/2022 16:31, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 6 December 2022 at 15:33:33 UTC, David Brooks wrote:
On 06/12/2022 13:11, whisky-dave wrote:
On Monday, 5 December 2022 at 10:27:49 UTC, David Brooks wrote:That must have been useful experience!
It's almost 40 years since I had exactly the same BBC Micro set-up as >>>>> the one which Eben is sitting next to!
You may find his talk as fascinating as I did when first I heard it! >>>>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSnaxD2HSdc
Does the video bring back any memories for you?
Yes I had a BBC of my own, and about 20 in the department , I was even sent on the Apple repaiir training course .
It was I still have the manuals somewhere, repairing at chip level isn;t done anymore even swapping boards is rare.
Welcome to the trow-away society. :-(
Am 07.12.22 um 00:09 schrieb David Brooks:
On 06/12/2022 16:31, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 6 December 2022 at 15:33:33 UTC, David Brooks wrote:
On 06/12/2022 13:11, whisky-dave wrote:
On Monday, 5 December 2022 at 10:27:49 UTC, David Brooks wrote:That must have been useful experience!
It's almost 40 years since I had exactly the same BBC Micro set-up as >>>>>> the one which Eben is sitting next to!
You may find his talk as fascinating as I did when first I heard it! >>>>>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSnaxD2HSdc
Does the video bring back any memories for you?
Yes I had a BBC of my own, and about 20 in the department , I was even sent on the Apple repaiir training course .
It was I still have the manuals somewhere, repairing at chip level isn;t done anymore even swapping boards is rare.
Welcome to the throw-away society. :-(
Now you qualify for my B-52-style-Killfile, you idiot.
On 06/12/2022 16:31, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 6 December 2022 at 15:33:33 UTC, David Brooks wrote:
On 06/12/2022 13:11, whisky-dave wrote:
On Monday, 5 December 2022 at 10:27:49 UTC, David Brooks wrote:That must have been useful experience!
It's almost 40 years since I had exactly the same BBC Micro set-up as >>>> the one which Eben is sitting next to!
You may find his talk as fascinating as I did when first I heard it! >>>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSnaxD2HSdc
Does the video bring back any memories for you?
Yes I had a BBC of my own, and about 20 in the department , I was even sent on the Apple repaiir training course .
It was I still have the manuals somewhere, repairing at chip level isn;t done anymore even swapping boards is rare.Welcome to the trow-away society. :-(
We had then with floppy drives , but by about 1984 they started being replaced by PCs and the first Apple Macs 128K, 512KI just Googled ....
When the Mac Plus came out I switched from BBC support to Mac support. >>> But the BBC was still far better for games which never really happened for Macs until after the pizza box Macs came out.
https://www.google.com/search?source=univ&tbm=isch&q=pizza+box+Mac
The first Mac I bought was a LC 475 . 25 MHz 4-8MB or ram :-) But you could up the speed by hacking the board to get 33MHz :-) Still in the loft.You have much hands-on experience.
The ones in the lab were the LCs LC II and LC III , but the academics Mac Mac II and quadras
We drilled a hole in the top of the case right the way through them to secure them to the table using a M8 or M10 locknut the types that go on carsI had no idea that your students would be badly behaved.
Stopped them gettign moved or stolen and yuo needed to unlock them to add memory.
new models were brought out much more frequently then. Within 18 months you felt pretty much out of date.That certainly kept you on your toes!
I've never seen or used one of those. My introduction to the Apple
'proper' was when I bought a 24 inch iMac in 2009.
A newbie ;-)Sort of! I began my apprenticeship in January 1962.
It's hard to believe that it's nearly 5 years since I bought my current
iMac 27 inch with Retina dispay. I just love it!
Think mine is 7-8 years old.
Think I might update next year but my 27" retina iMac is still OK , trouble is looks like I'll have to get a studio MacI'm awaiting developments from Apple too.
and external monitor.
This company still does good deals on pre-owned computers should yours
fail:- https://eshop.macsales.com/configure-my-mac/imac
--PS This was the alternative on offer way back then!
https://www.macrumors.com/2020/01/24/macintosh-36th-anniversary/
Kind regards,
David
On 06/12/2022 16:31, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 6 December 2022 at 15:33:33 UTC, David Brooks wrote:
On 06/12/2022 13:11, whisky-dave wrote:
On Monday, 5 December 2022 at 10:27:49 UTC, David Brooks wrote:That must have been useful experience!
It's almost 40 years since I had exactly the same BBC Micro set-up as >>>> the one which Eben is sitting next to!
You may find his talk as fascinating as I did when first I heard it! >>>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSnaxD2HSdc
Does the video bring back any memories for you?
Yes I had a BBC of my own, and about 20 in the department , I was even sent on the Apple repaiir training course .
It was I still have the manuals somewhere, repairing at chip level isn;t done anymore even swapping boards is rare.Welcome to the trow-away society. :-(
We had then with floppy drives , but by about 1984 they started being replaced by PCs and the first Apple Macs 128K, 512KI just Googled ....
When the Mac Plus came out I switched from BBC support to Mac support. >>> But the BBC was still far better for games which never really happened for Macs until after the pizza box Macs came out.
https://www.google.com/search?source=univ&tbm=isch&q=pizza+box+Mac
The first Mac I bought was a LC 475 . 25 MHz 4-8MB or ram :-) But you could up the speed by hacking the board to get 33MHz :-) Still in the loft.You have much hands-on experience.
The ones in the lab were the LCs LC II and LC III , but the academics Mac Mac II and quadras
We drilled a hole in the top of the case right the way through them to secure them to the table using a M8 or M10 locknut the types that go on carsI had no idea that your students would be badly behaved.
Stopped them gettign moved or stolen and yuo needed to unlock them to add memory.
It's almost 40 years since I had exactly the same BBC Micro set-up as
the one which Eben is sitting next to!
You may find his talk as fascinating as I did when first I heard it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSnaxD2HSdc
Does the video bring back any memories for you?
On 05/12/2022 10:27, David Brooks wrote:
It's almost 40 years since I had exactly the same BBC Micro set-up as
the one which Eben is sitting next to!
It's probably been the same for me and the one I still have, assuming
that's a Microvitec Cub?
You may find his talk as fascinating as I did when first I heard it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSnaxD2HSdc
I did indeed, thanks for sharing.
Does the video bring back any memories for you?
Yup, along with the BBC B (I had the sideways ROM / RAM board and FD interface with 2 x 5-1/4" drives) he also rattled off the rest of my collection ... Atari ST (FM), Commodore 16 (I've also got the C64/128), Spectrums (16/48K) and of course coming right up to date, the Raspberry
Pi's (2/3/4 & Zeros). ;-)
I was also in a similar situation to Eben at Technical College (no
student computers at secondary school that I remember or had access to)
where I had my own key to the 'Computer room' and would sometimes get
called out of another class to fix the Teleprinter for the Computer
Lecturer trying to run a class in there. ;-)
I also used to 'hack' into a different PDP that my mate used in Sth
London by having the hearis code (was it called, the official one was HATTYPOLYRITTY or somesuch?) on some papertape and physically stopping
the hearis drum in the terminal and starting the tape reader so I could connect over the dial-up modem (that may have even been an acoustic
coupler). ;-)
Those were the days ... but my personal interest in computers, datacomms
and electronics put me with the right skills at the right time and so I enjoyed (where your work is also what you do for fun) my career, from
the bench to field support, back to LAN admin / telephone support and
then IT training.
It stikes me, Tim, that you are probably of around the same era as the
the son I lost.
Here's a (now missing) comment I posted under the video:- https://jumpshare.com/v/JmODMbXWhlETWcU1bBZp
That should provide a little more background.
On 10/12/2022 17:30, David Brooks wrote:
<snip>
It stikes me, Tim, that you are probably of around the same era as the
the son I lost.
Born mid 50's here?
Here's a (now missing) comment I posted under the video:-
https://jumpshare.com/v/JmODMbXWhlETWcU1bBZp
Thanks for that. It must have been a terrible shock losing your son with
no warning like that, probably the same as him going in a car accident
etc. You always think they will come home. ;-(
At least when I lost my stepdaughter 3 years back (bowel cancer) we had
some warning (well, diagnosed in January and gone in March), time for
her to tidy up loose ends and say her goodbyes etc.
I'll never forget how strong she was though it all ... knowing she only
had a short time to live (and was only 39 (still better than 28 of
course)) and in spite of being dosed up with painkillers at the end, she still kept it together and still had her good / dry sense of humour.
That should provide a little more background.
Thanks.
Interested in the narrow boat. Daughter currently lives close to the
River Lee so we regularly walk the towpath with her rescue dog.
And it's funny Funny how things pan out ... whilst on the towpath one
day we came across a lady narrowboater who we had greeted on her boat in
the past who was obviously having problems with the padlock on her accommodation hatch. She had got it unlocked but she had somehow got
the lock body and hasp locked against the hatch lip and so couldn't get onboard to get her phone to call her partner for help. I offered to help
and using my trusty Leatherman multitool, managed to get it unsnarled in short shrift (as my ex merchant navy Dad used to say, 'A sailor without
a knife is like a pros...' (well, they were less PC times)<weg>). It was
then when we were chatting in general it turned out she knew my
stepdaughter (daughter took over her flat when she died and she also
used to walk her dogs down there most days) and further it turned out
she had been onboard for a tea with them a couple of times! She had us
all in pieces when she offered her commiserations and commented on what
a lovely, gentle, happy, kind and funny girl she was ...
Dad was with Shell Tankers for 12 years, got his captains ticket but
only served as first mate then came ashore when I came along. He ended
up a Yachtsmaster and 'Master Mariner' (whatever that is) and carried on
his love of the sea and boats in general via us (sister and and I with various dinghy's) and then a series of small sailing cruisers, first
with us and then as we grew old, mostly just with Mum and their friends.
I think I now regret not joining him / them when they went down to the
boat (on the East Coast) more often and I feel he would have loved to
share that with me / us more. I've never really liked the sea,
preferring rivers, canals and the Broads because the water is normally
there when you want it and isn't always trying to kill you. ;-)
Cheers, T i m.
Thanks for that. It must have been a terrible shock losing your son
with no warning like that, probably the same as him going in a car
accident etc. You always think they will come home. ;-(
Similar - but had it been a car accident there would have been someone
for us to blame.
Terrible for you to watch helplessly though. I'm so sorry.
Interested in the narrow boat. Daughter currently lives close to the
River Lee so we regularly walk the towpath with her rescue dog.
That's one of the few waterways I never explored.
Thank you for your story. They say that only the good die young.
mostly just with Mum and their
friends.
Do you still have one or both of them? I lost mine long ago now.
One must *always* take care on and around water. It is powerful stuff!
If you ever wish to tap into my extensive knowledge, please just ask.
It's not too late to start exporing our waterways yourself! ;-)
A site to explore if you aren't already familiar: https://canalrivertrust.org.uk
On 10/12/2022 23:29, David Brooks wrote:
<snip>
Thanks for that. It must have been a terrible shock losing your son
with no warning like that, probably the same as him going in a car
accident etc. You always think they will come home. ;-(
Similar - but had it been a car accident there would have been someone
for us to blame.
Ah, true. I haven't mentioned these thoughts to my Mrs but stepdaughter
did smoke and loved her processed meats, both linked to increased health risks inc bowel cancer and partly why we (x5) are now vegan.
<snip kind words>
Terrible for you to watch helplessly though. I'm so sorry.
I asked a good friend why I didn't appear to be impacted as much as some
over the whole thing (there were still plenty of tears though,
especially afterwards) and he suggested it could be that I had and to
the benefit of the family, a superpower for this situation, 'apatheia'.
Basically he described it as rationalising with myself that there was
nothing I could to about the situation (I couldn't make her well) but
could and would still therefore be able to do stuff to help others (like drive people about, go shopping, walk / feed / care for her dogs etc).
Interested in the narrow boat. Daughter currently lives close to the
River Lee so we regularly walk the towpath with her rescue dog.
That's one of the few waterways I never explored.
Out of the blue one day, Dad asked if I wanted to take the tandem kayak
(I'd assembled from rough mouldings) with a mate for a trip down the
Lee. Long short, he drives us 20 miles upstream, drops us off and says
he will meet us back locally 'later'. The first mile and lock portage
was ok ... 12 hours later ...
<snip>
Thank you for your story. They say that only the good die young.
Yup, we still don't expect to outlive our kids though eh. ;-(
mostly just with Mum and their friends.
Do you still have one or both of them? I lost mine long ago now.
Yeah, still have Mum (92), see iPhone 11 chat here. ;-)
<snip>
One must *always* take care on and around water. It is powerful stuff!
If you ever wish to tap into my extensive knowledge, please just ask.
Cheers. There was a rally on the R Lee a while back and I was able to
talk to a chap who had an all electric narrow boat (something I had considered, if I ever had the time / money). He had given up with solar panels (I always imagined a roof full would be worthwhile but apparently
not) and had gone though a couple of generations of battery and said the final setup worked quite well.
Given that these boats need ballasting, I always imagined a a bank of
lead acid (cheaper than lithium and easier to recycle) under a
ventilated / removable false floor would be the ideal solution. You need
the weight and narrow boats were designed to carry huge loads and to be
moved by a single horse. Silent, no pollution at the river, you don't
need a massive motor and the batteries get the best 'life' (not being
bounced about or exposed to high bursts of discharge / charge like in a
car).
We did hire an electric day-boat in Norfolk and that was quite effective
and I have an electric trolling motor for my folding dinghy (bliss for
my tinnitus).
It's not too late to start exporing our waterways yourself! ;-)
All our family holidays were on the Norfolk Broads somewhere and I have explored much of the Lee, Stort and Ouse over the years. Went on a
narrowboat trip though the industrial area of Brumm with the guys from college for a week. Plenty of hands for the various flights of locks. ;-)
A site to explore if you aren't already familiar:Yeah, I am familiar with them thanks. My last contact with them was re
https://canalrivertrust.org.uk
why electrically propelled things couldn't be (licence / cost) rated
along with human propelled things and not with fossil fuel powered
things, given the levels of noise / pollution at the river itself and
they said they were working on it.
Vegan, eh?!!
That's a big step.
My youngest nephew became a vegan and I
recall that when he came for my daughter's big 40 birtday party all he
could eat was packets of crisps!
Some years ago he ended up workng in
Argentina and decided that eating wonderful (and cheap!) succelent steak
was a far better option!
Basically he described it as rationalising with myself that there was
nothing I could to about the situation (I couldn't make her well) but
could and would still therefore be able to do stuff to help others
(like drive people about, go shopping, walk / feed / care for her dogs
etc).
I know you will have never been the same person afterwards.
Given that these boats need ballasting, I always imagined a a bank of
lead acid (cheaper than lithium and easier to recycle) under a
ventilated / removable false floor would be the ideal solution. You
need the weight and narrow boats were designed to carry huge loads and
to be moved by a single horse. Silent, no pollution at the river, you
don't need a massive motor and the batteries get the best 'life' (not
being bounced about or exposed to high bursts of discharge / charge
like in a car).
You've obviously given such matters lots of thought!
Modern Birmingham is hardly recogniseable compared to how it was even
just back in the '80s - the 1980s, not the 1880s at the height of the
use of canals.
A site to explore if you aren't already familiar:Yeah, I am familiar with them thanks. My last contact with them was re
https://canalrivertrust.org.uk
why electrically propelled things couldn't be (licence / cost) rated
along with human propelled things and not with fossil fuel powered
things, given the levels of noise / pollution at the river itself and
they said they were working on it.
They need to squeeze every penny they can from the boaters!
On 11/12/2022 16:08, David Brooks wrote:
<snip>
Vegan, eh?!!
Yup, 5 of us in fact.
That's a big step.
Not for us it wasn't. Given the classic British meal was meat and two
veg, most people were 2/3rds vegan in any case. ;-)
My youngest nephew became a vegan and I
recall that when he came for my daughter's big 40 birtday party all he
could eat was packets of crisps!
What, no fruit, nuts, rolls, salad, veg ... no provision for his diet?
What if he had allergies ... or if the other guests had to slaughter the animals themselves before eating them, I bet the menu would have looked
very different.
Some years ago he ended up workng in
Argentina and decided that eating wonderful (and cheap!) succulent steak
was a far better option!
Not for the animals, environment, wildlife and their habitat and so us
it isn't. 8 billion people and 80 billion livestock, it's simply not sustainable. We are the only species on this planet that has done so
much damage to the very place we need to survive and if we all left *everything else* would be better off. So much for the most advanced / superior species. ;-(
<snip>
Basically he described it as rationalising with myself that there was
nothing I could to about the situation (I couldn't make her well) but
could and would still therefore be able to do stuff to help others
(like drive people about, go shopping, walk / feed / care for her
dogs etc).
I know you will have never been the same person afterwards.
They were sad times that's for sure. The consultant popped in on the
Friday to check up on her and suggested that he would be round next the following Wednesday and that he may not see her again. She asked if he
could make it happen sooner.
<snip>
Given that these boats need ballasting, I always imagined a a bank of
lead acid (cheaper than lithium and easier to recycle) under a
ventilated / removable false floor would be the ideal solution. You
need the weight and narrow boats were designed to carry huge loads
and to be moved by a single horse. Silent, no pollution at the
river, you don't need a massive motor and the batteries get the best
'life' (not being bounced about or exposed to high bursts of
discharge / charge like in a car).
You've obviously given such matters lots of thought!
I've been playing with electricity since a kid and have had an EV for
over 33 years now. I also designed, built and raced an electric
motorcycle (endurance rather than speed) and still have my Sinclair C5
so yes, it's been part of my life for a long time now. ;-)
<snip>
Modern Birmingham is hardly recogniseable compared to how it was even
just back in the '80s - the 1980s, not the 1880s at the height of the
use of canals.
I bet. I think it still hung onto many of it's commercial roots back
then but it's probably all just leisure now?
There were some flyers posted along the river locally re something alongA site to explore if you aren't already familiar:Yeah, I am familiar with them thanks. My last contact with them was
https://canalrivertrust.org.uk
re why electrically propelled things couldn't be (licence / cost)
rated along with human propelled things and not with fossil fuel
powered things, given the levels of noise / pollution at the river
itself and they said they were working on it.
They need to squeeze every penny they can from the boaters!
the lines of resistance to some form of 'gentrification' of the boats
and moorings, potentially pushing many who were reliant on their boats
for somewhere to live.
Cheers, T i m
I respect your decision.
I was being flippant! The pub which hosted the event provided the food.
Not for the animals, environment, wildlife and their habitat and so us
it isn't. 8 billion people and 80 billion livestock, it's simply not
sustainable. We are the only species on this planet that has done so
much damage to the very place we need to survive and if we all left
*everything else* would be better off. So much for the most advanced /
superior species. ;-(
Neither you nor I will be able to change the outcome.
I've been playing with electricity since a kid and have had an EV for
over 33 years now. I also designed, built and raced an electric
motorcycle (endurance rather than speed) and still have my Sinclair C5
so yes, it's been part of my life for a long time now. ;-)
Wow! I'm impressed! I have, at various times, driven a milk float! ;-)
There is very little commercial trafic on the canals nowadays.
This is a major exception:- https://www.towpathtalk.co.uk/resumed-barge-traffic-to-leeds-from-hull-is-very-opportune-says-cboa/
There were some flyers posted along the river locally re something
along the lines of resistance to some form of 'gentrification' of the
boats and moorings, potentially pushing many who were reliant on their
boats for somewhere to live.
There has always be a 'them & us' battle. The small man rarely wins.
Have a great weekend! 🙂
On 16/12/2022 22:16, David Brooks wrote:
Not for the animals, environment, wildlife and their habitat and so
us it isn't. 8 billion people and 80 billion livestock, it's simply
not sustainable. We are the only species on this planet that has done
so much damage to the very place we need to survive and if we all
left *everything else* would be better off. So much for the most
advanced / superior species. ;-(
Neither you nor I will be able to change the outcome.
Ah, the 'appeal to futility' argument. Ironically it's one of the few
things where 'we', the ordinary person on the street *can* actually do something about, simply by not paying to make it happen. Supply and
demand ... and even including things like our use of water (where dairy
uses twice the water per lire of 'milk' than even the worst of the
rest). We have only just come off our hosepipe ban and this is in rainy England!
On 16/12/2022 23:26, T i m wrote:
On 16/12/2022 22:16, David Brooks wrote:
Not for the animals, environment, wildlife and their habitat and so
us it isn't. 8 billion people and 80 billion livestock, it's simply
not sustainable. We are the only species on this planet that has done
so much damage to the very place we need to survive and if we all
left *everything else* would be better off. So much for the most
advanced / superior species. ;-(
Neither you nor I will be able to change the outcome.
Ah, the 'appeal to futility' argument. Ironically it's one of the few
things where 'we', the ordinary person on the street *can* actually do
something about, simply by not paying to make it happen. Supply and
demand ... and even including things like our use of water (where dairy
uses twice the water per lire of 'milk' than even the worst of the
rest). We have only just come off our hosepipe ban and this is in rainy
England!
The question is not about *can*, it's about *will* they do it.
At this time, I suspect there's a lot of people simply picking what is perceived to be the cheaper options (whether it actually is, or not, is
a different matter).
The problem I see, is that we have so much BS being bandied about in the media, it's become so hard to pick out what is accurate and worthy information, and what is not.
I work for a well known potato product factory, and you would be
horrified at the amount of water we consume producing a vegetarian
product (we have our own bore hole and water treatment plant).
Most of out product is for the convenience/fast food market, and it's increasing at a scale not consistent with such hard financial times.
'People' are not willing to compromise it seems. For sure there's the
niche market, and of course there are more and more vegan options
available, but I think it will still take many many years before it
makes a difference to our planet (without even considering all the rain forest being wiped out to plant for palm oil production).
My daughter and her husband tried being vegan for a while, but after the arrival of granddaughter, and the current financial situation, they have simply had to back away from being totally vegan, and choose options
that suit the pocket. So no, the ordinary 'person' on the street can't maintain such a noble cause.
If you want to change the world, then it needs to be affordable to the
common man. The rich don't really seem to give a toss (they're just
building rockets so they can escape the madness, and go and fuck up a
new planet). So yeah, there is a feeling of futility, especially when we
have nutters in Eastern Europe trying hard to drop nukes too, while
they're wiping out one of the biggest supply of vegetable based product
on a continent.
Human nature is, sadly, fairly self-destructive.
I'll try and do my bit, as much as I can. But right now, I'm worried
about how I stay warm while suffering with health issues (I have had
Atrial Fibrillation since getting Covid in March), and still managing
(just) to keep doing my outdoors job in all weathers, so I can keep supporting my family.
On 17 Dec 2022 at 08:03:54 GMT, Andy Hewitt wrote:
The question is not about *can*, it's about *will* they do it.
I think that's becoming the key question - or rather, in face of the facts, why don't people act appropriately? Climate change, personal health, non-human
animal welfare etc. (it's a long list).
At this time, I suspect there's a lot of people simply picking what is
perceived to be the cheaper options (whether it actually is, or not, is
a different matter).
The problem I see, is that we have so much BS being bandied about in the
media, it's become so hard to pick out what is accurate and worthy
information, and what is not.
'Informed choice' has become almost impossibly difficult, yes. A lot of us (me
included) round on money cost as the reason for doing things - often it isn't,
especially if costs and benefits are considered fully.
I work for a well known potato product factory, and you would be
horrified at the amount of water we consume producing a vegetarian
product (we have our own bore hole and water treatment plant).
Apparently (ahem, heard it somewhere!) a quarter of the sea level rise is because of ground water extraction and use.
Most of out product is for the convenience/fast food market, and it's
increasing at a scale not consistent with such hard financial times.
'People' are not willing to compromise it seems. For sure there's the
niche market, and of course there are more and more vegan options
available, but I think it will still take many many years before it
makes a difference to our planet (without even considering all the rain
forest being wiped out to plant for palm oil production).
My daughter and her husband tried being vegan for a while, but after the
arrival of granddaughter, and the current financial situation, they have
simply had to back away from being totally vegan, and choose options
that suit the pocket. So no, the ordinary 'person' on the street can't
maintain such a noble cause.
Oh you could easily eat very well as a vegan and spend considerably less than a meat eater. I spend more than I need to for convenience - a lot of processed
foods - bread and tins mainly. And I'm not very good at cooking, and have become conditioned to the salt/fat/sugar way of things.
If you want to change the world, then it needs to be affordable to the
common man. The rich don't really seem to give a toss (they're just
building rockets so they can escape the madness, and go and fuck up a
new planet). So yeah, there is a feeling of futility, especially when we
have nutters in Eastern Europe trying hard to drop nukes too, while
they're wiping out one of the biggest supply of vegetable based product
on a continent.
Human nature is, sadly, fairly self-destructive.
I don't subscribe to that. I do think that we (in the west) are locked into a mid-stage capitalist state of mind and being. It quite simply wasn't always that way. I'm not a big reader but am finding David Graeber's Dawn of Everything (free download) a real page turner and persuasive. Many of the civilsations we've crushed are utterly incomprehensible in our own terms - one
of the reasons they were annihilated.
I'll try and do my bit, as much as I can. But right now, I'm worried
about how I stay warm while suffering with health issues (I have had
Atrial Fibrillation since getting Covid in March), and still managing
(just) to keep doing my outdoors job in all weathers, so I can keep
supporting my family.
Ouch. Keep warm, well, safe.
Oh you could easily eat very well as a vegan and spend considerably less than a meat eater.
I spend more than I need to for convenience - a lot of processed
foods - bread and tins mainly. And I'm not very good at cooking, and have become conditioned to the salt/fat/sugar way of things.
Human nature is, sadly, fairly self-destructive.
I don't subscribe to that. I do think that we (in the west) are locked into a mid-stage capitalist state of mind and being. It quite simply wasn't always that way.
I'm not a big reader but am finding David Graeber's Dawn of
Everything (free download) a real page turner and persuasive. Many of the civilsations we've crushed are utterly incomprehensible in our own terms - one
of the reasons they were annihilated.
I'll try and do my bit, as much as I can. But right now, I'm worried
about how I stay warm while suffering with health issues (I have had
Atrial Fibrillation since getting Covid in March), and still managing
(just) to keep doing my outdoors job in all weathers, so I can keep
supporting my family.
Ouch. Keep warm, well, safe.
Human nature is, sadly, fairly self-destructive.
I don't subscribe to that. I do think that we (in the west) are locked into a
mid-stage capitalist state of mind and being. It quite simply wasn't always >> that way. I'm not a big reader but am finding David Graeber's Dawn of
Everything (free download) a real page turner and persuasive. Many of the
civilsations we've crushed are utterly incomprehensible in our own terms - one
of the reasons they were annihilated.
I'm talking about the entire history of civilisation. Go back as far as
you want, and humans have been greedy for what their neighbour
possesses, and wants the power to control it all, for as long as we have
been walking upright.
The civilised world has always been invading and building empires, and
raping the lands of all they can produce.
On occasion you'll find one that tries to live in harmony with the world around it, but that's very rare, and has usually been wiped out by 'civilised' man.
I'm not a big reader but am finding David Graeber's Dawn of
Everything (free download) a real page turner and persuasive. Many of the
civilsations we've crushed are utterly incomprehensible in our own terms - one
of the reasons they were annihilated.
I'll check that out (thanks). Daughter and partner like reading around
that sort of thing and may be of use to daughters environmental based
degree?
On 17 Dec 2022 at 13:38:58 GMT, T i m wrote:
I'm not a big reader but am finding David Graeber's Dawn of
Everything (free download) a real page turner and persuasive. Many of the >>> civilsations we've crushed are utterly incomprehensible in our own terms - one
of the reasons they were annihilated.
I'll check that out (thanks). Daughter and partner like reading around
that sort of thing and may be of use to daughters environmental based
degree?
For me, it kind of explains why we are where we are. As to what to do about it
- I'll need to finish the book :-)
https://archive.org/embed/graeber-wengrow-dawn
On 17/12/2022 08:34, RJH wrote:
On 17 Dec 2022 at 08:03:54 GMT, Andy Hewitt wrote:
The question is not about *can*, it's about *will* they do it.
I think that's becoming the key question - or rather, in face of the
facts,
why don't people act appropriately? Climate change, personal health,
non-human
animal welfare etc. (it's a long list).
Indeed so, it's certainly not a black and white argument, there are many factors, and they can mean something different to different people.
For sure, when it can be afforded, the money issue doesn't *have* to be
the primary factor. However, with the current economic climate, it
cannot be ignored as a significant factor for many people.
It's just not all about the money cost either.
I do a 9 day shift
patter, 4 of those are 10 hour days. I simply do not have the time, or
energy to think about planning scratch made meals (current information suggests that vegetarian/vegan processed/ready type foods are even worse
than basic meat and two veg cooked from fresh).
From what I can see, reading recipes for vegetarian diets, there is a
lot more preparation and planning needed to ensure you get a decent
variety of meals, with sufficient complete nutritional needs.
Besides, I have a lifetime of meat and two veg in me, as well as many generations that preceded me. It's a very hard thing to change from.
So it's not all about, oh just go vegan.
Even that is not a viable option as a short term thing. Just stopping
eating meat is not going to happen over night, far too many livelihoods
would be affected, not to mention the culture of different producing countries.
The reality is, that this is going to take generations to
change to a significant level that would make any huge differences.
I'm talking about the entire history of civilisation. Go back as far as
you want, and humans have been greedy for what their neighbour
possesses, and wants the power to control it all, for as long as we have
been walking upright.
The civilised world has always been invading and building empires, and
raping the lands of all they can produce.
On occasion you'll find one that tries to live in harmony with the world around it, but that's very rare, and has usually been wiped out by 'civilised' man.
Thank you, as I say, things are not always black and white.
On 17 Dec 2022 at 12:34:52 GMT, Andy Hewitt wrote:
Human nature is, sadly, fairly self-destructive.
I don't subscribe to that. I do think that we (in the west) are locked into a
mid-stage capitalist state of mind and being. It quite simply wasn't always >>> that way. I'm not a big reader but am finding David Graeber's Dawn of
Everything (free download) a real page turner and persuasive. Many of the >>> civilsations we've crushed are utterly incomprehensible in our own terms - one
of the reasons they were annihilated.
I'm talking about the entire history of civilisation. Go back as far as
you want, and humans have been greedy for what their neighbour
possesses, and wants the power to control it all, for as long as we have
been walking upright.
The civilised world has always been invading and building empires, and
raping the lands of all they can produce.
On occasion you'll find one that tries to live in harmony with the world
around it, but that's very rare, and has usually been wiped out by
'civilised' man.
Yes indeed, but my point was it's not human nature to variously conquer and destroy . . .
Yes indeed, but my point was it's not human nature to variously conquer and >> destroy . . .
It *is* the nature of *some* *people*. And that is all you need.
I'm sure I don't have to list for you the individuals in that category, either
past or present.
On 17/12/2022 08:34, RJH wrote:
<snip>
Oh you could easily eat very well as a vegan and spend considerably less thanQuite, as most of the third world countries demonstrate by surviving
a meat eater.
with only an occasional taste of meat, fish or even eggs. ;-)
I was talking to a guy the other day that when he goes home (Bangladesh)
he often puts together food packages, lentils, legumes, chickpeas and
the like to give to those where he lives as he can afford to do so and
that will help the people for far longer than a small piece of meat for
the same money.
I spend more than I need to for convenience - a lot of processedYup, but there can be bargains in the 'ready' stuff if that suits now
foods - bread and tins mainly. And I'm not very good at cooking, and have become conditioned to the salt/fat/sugar way of things.
and again. Or, for the lazy d-i-yers ... a bag of frozen stir-fry veg in Lidl for £1, a tin of chickpeas for 45p, an onion for 10p and a pouch of sweet and sour sauce for 50p with 6p of electric on the induction hob
and you have a reasonable meal for 4. Chuck in a bag of reduced baby
spinach leaves or some kale and additional leftover veg and it would
make a few meals for a couple. ;-)
Because we are fairly busy I thought we could order a couple of Pappa
Johns vegan Pizzas (two for the price of one) but still £23 quid
delivered. Instead I bought two Plant Pioneers lasagna (£2 each) and
with the addition of some small frozen veg not a bad meal. Not exactly 'healthy' (either) way but it was just a change. ;-)
<snip>
Human nature is, sadly, fairly self-destructive.
I don't subscribe to that. I do think that we (in the west) are locked into aAgreed.
mid-stage capitalist state of mind and being. It quite simply wasn't always
that way.
Also, how many people actually *chose* to eat meat ... or drink
milk after weaning? The answer, 'very few', we did because we were told
to as children or that's just what we were given.
If we did ever
question where 'meat' came from we were normally just told to get on
with it and if any explanation was given, it was just a regurgitation of what they knew to be the same lies they were fed, like 'it's done
humanely'
(humane: with benevolence or compassion, like there is a way
to take the life of a creature that clearly doesn't want to die
benevolently ...) or 'they were bred to be eaten', like the animals
ever got a say in that? ;-(
I'm not a big reader but am finding David Graeber's Dawn ofI'll check that out (thanks). Daughter and partner like reading around
Everything (free download) a real page turner and persuasive. Many of the civilsations we've crushed are utterly incomprehensible in our own terms - one
of the reasons they were annihilated.
that sort of thing and may be of use to daughters environmental based degree?
I'll try and do my bit, as much as I can. But right now, I'm worried
about how I stay warm while suffering with health issues (I have had
Atrial Fibrillation since getting Covid in March), and still managing
(just) to keep doing my outdoors job in all weathers, so I can keep
supporting my family.
Ouch. Keep warm, well, safe.+1
The thing is, keeping and eating well on a budget aren't all mutually exclusive, especially with the right mindset and further (as confirmed
by all the medical health advice out there) we should be avoiding
processed meats (a known carcinogen), cutting down on read meat (that is expensive even whilst subsided by the government) and increasing our
intake of veg, fruit, legumes and nuts etc?
Then we have the impact on our health by the climate (short and long
term, excessive deaths from extreme temperatures or falls on the ice
etc), antibiotic resistance from taking it via meat (that WILL be a big
one when the wrong pandemic hits) and the destruction of habitat and wildlife that we *need* to survive, mostly done to growing feed for livestock or grazing livestock directly. 8 billion humans, 80 billion livestock (all needing food, water, space and creating pollution /
methane etc), it's not sustainable.
When was the last time you had a bug on your windscreen and most
pollination is done by plain bugs, not bees ... ;-(
Cheers, T i m
On 17/12/2022 15:57, TimS wrote:
<snip>
Yes indeed, but my point was it's not human nature to variously conquer and
destroy . . .
It *is* the nature of *some* *people*. And that is all you need.
I'm sure I don't have to list for you the individuals in that category, either
past or present.
I read Robs comment to read 'human nature' to reflect 'most of us'.
Like, 'you give a (human) child a chicken and an apple and they will eat
the apple and befriend the chicken' (in contrast to what a lion might do etc).
That's not all children obviously, there will be some that would be on
your list but I believe them to be in the minority (or societies
wouldn't generally hold together in the absence of any real law
enforcement).
The level of positive societal adhesion can be a function of lots of
things of course and where someone on your list would behave identically
if most people were doing ok or most people were suffering (like those robbing peoples houses when the owners have sought refuge elsewhere
during a war).
Cheers, T i m
The problem I see, is that we have so much BS being bandied about in the media, it's become so hard to pick out what is accurate and worthy information, and what is not.
I work for a well known potato product factory, and you would be
horrified at the amount of water we consume producing a vegetarian
product (we have our own bore hole and water treatment plant).
On 17/12/2022 08:03, Andy Hewitt wrote:
<snip>
The problem I see, is that we have so much BS being bandied about in
the media, it's become so hard to pick out what is accurate and worthy
information, and what is not.
I work for a well known potato product factory, and you would be
horrified at the amount of water we consume producing a vegetarian
product (we have our own bore hole and water treatment plant).
Potatoes get a good rep in this little video about food production and
the carbon footprint. ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1Hq8eVOMHs
Also, maybe you could explain (depending on the 'product' you were
referring to) why some plain crisps contain milk and why mast prawn
flavoured crisps don't contain any prawn or milk (and so are vegan)?
When was the last time you had a bug on your windscreen and most
pollination is done by plain bugs, not bees ... ;-(
Yes and that's what affecting bird populations rather than cats.
On Saturday, 17 December 2022 at 13:39:02 UTC, T i m wrote:
On 17/12/2022 08:34, RJH wrote:
<snip>
Quite, as most of the third world countries demonstrate by surviving
Oh you could easily eat very well as a vegan and spend considerably less than
a meat eater.
with only an occasional taste of meat, fish or even eggs. ;-)
There's a differnce between surviving and living ;-)
And thre's a reason it's referred to as the third world.
One thing I've always been curious about is the average IQs of differnt countries and why it varies so much.
On 17/12/2022 08:03, Andy Hewitt wrote:
<snip>
The problem I see, is that we have so much BS being bandied about in
the media, it's become so hard to pick out what is accurate and worthy
information, and what is not.
I work for a well known potato product factory, and you would be
horrified at the amount of water we consume producing a vegetarian
product (we have our own bore hole and water treatment plant).
Potatoes get a good rep in this little video about food production and
the carbon footprint. ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1Hq8eVOMHs
Also, maybe you could explain (depending on the 'product' you were
referring to) why some plain crisps contain milk and why mast prawn
flavoured crisps don't contain any prawn or milk (and so are vegan)?
On 19/12/2022 15:48, T i m wrote:
On 17/12/2022 08:03, Andy Hewitt wrote:
<snip>
The problem I see, is that we have so much BS being bandied about in
the media, it's become so hard to pick out what is accurate and
worthy information, and what is not.
I work for a well known potato product factory, and you would be
horrified at the amount of water we consume producing a vegetarian
product (we have our own bore hole and water treatment plant).
Potatoes get a good rep in this little video about food production and
the carbon footprint. ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1Hq8eVOMHs
They should. We make a lot of effort to make sure we're as clean as
possible. Out of around 60+ tonnes of product per hour (that's just one factory in a global company), we create nothing at all that goes to
landfill or is disposed of as such.
Almost everything is used for something else (although, funnily enough a
lot does end up as animal feed - simple economics, even if you think
you're buying vegetarian, it may not actually be a completely vegetarian production chain). And we use all supplies that are nearest to each plant.
One of our factories (in the UK) is completely carbon neutral too.
Also, maybe you could explain (depending on the 'product' you were
referring to) why some plain crisps contain milk and why mast prawn
flavoured crisps don't contain any prawn or milk (and so are vegan)?
No idea, that's not our business.
Probably the same reason that standard Bisto gravy granuals are
vegetarian too (only found that out after years of buying separate gravy
for one veggie in the family, we had never needed to do so).
Did you know, that until about 10 years ago, McD's Veggie Burgers were
not vegetarian, as they had to be cooked on the same grills as the meat burgers. It wasn't until they got changed, so they could go into the
chip fryers, they then could be classed as vegetarian.
On 19/12/2022 16:32, Andy Hewitt wrote:
Did you know, that until about 10 years ago, McD's Veggie Burgers were
not vegetarian, as they had to be cooked on the same grills as the
meat burgers. It wasn't until they got changed, so they could go into
the chip fryers, they then could be classed as vegetarian.
I wouldn't class them as food, never mind vegetarian!
Potatoes get a good rep in this little video about food production and
the carbon footprint. ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1Hq8eVOMHs
They should. We make a lot of effort to make sure we're as clean as
possible. Out of around 60+ tonnes of product per hour (that's just one factory in a global company), we create nothing at all that goes to
landfill or is disposed of as such.
Almost everything is used for something else (although, funnily enough a
lot does end up as animal feed - simple economics, even if you think
you're buying vegetarian, it may not actually be a completely vegetarian production chain).
And we use all supplies that are nearest to each plant.
One of our factories (in the UK) is completely carbon neutral too.
Also, maybe you could explain (depending on the 'product' you were
referring to) why some plain crisps contain milk and why mast prawn
flavoured crisps don't contain any prawn or milk (and so are vegan)?
No idea, that's not our business.
Probably the same reason that standard Bisto gravy granuals are
vegetarian too (only found that out after years of buying separate gravy
for one veggie in the family, we had never needed to do so).
Did you know, that until about 10 years ago, McD's Veggie Burgers were
not vegetarian, as they had to be cooked on the same grills as the meat burgers.
It wasn't until they got changed, so they could go into the
chip fryers, they then could be classed as vegetarian.
On Saturday, 17 December 2022 at 13:39:02 UTC, T i m wrote:
On 17/12/2022 08:34, RJH wrote:
<snip>
Quite, as most of the third world countries demonstrate by surviving
Oh you could easily eat very well as a vegan and spend considerably less than
a meat eater.
with only an occasional taste of meat, fish or even eggs. ;-)
There's a differnce between surviving and living ;-)
And thre's a reason it's referred to as the third world.
One thing I've always been curious about is the average IQs of differnt countries and why it varies so much.
I was talking to a guy the other day that when he goes home (Bangladesh)
he often puts together food packages, lentils, legumes, chickpeas and
the like to give to those where he lives as he can afford to do so and
that will help the people for far longer than a small piece of meat for
the same money.
Is it economical for him to ship the footstuffs rather than buy them when he is in Bangladesh.
I've not managed to work out whether the vegan stuff that is processed is good or bad.
I've cut out most meat and I quite like meat substituates that taste like meat bit how healthy they are I don't know.
Because we are fairly busy I thought we could order a couple of Pappa
Johns vegan Pizzas (two for the price of one) but still £23 quid
delivered. Instead I bought two Plant Pioneers lasagna (£2 each) and
with the addition of some small frozen veg not a bad meal. Not exactly
'healthy' (either) way but it was just a change. ;-)
How do you evalute the healthyness, it's more than just the ingredients and then the cooking.
I see frozen chips cooked in beef fat or duck fat, and even goose fat, then there's ground nut oil
(my local chippie) or sunflower oil and who could afford to fill a deep fat fryier with truffel oil ;-)
Also, how many people actually *chose* to eat meat ... or drink
milk after weaning? The answer, 'very few', we did because we were told
to as children or that's just what we were given.
It goes back quite a long way 4000+ years . We learned from our ancestors then our educators, and now it;s a mix of both and
we have health as the 3rd leg adding to the mix.
If we did ever
question where 'meat' came from we were normally just told to get on
with it and if any explanation was given, it was just a regurgitation of
what they knew to be the same lies they were fed, like 'it's done
humanely'
The definition of humanely has changed too, and of course whether it matters.
(humane: with benevolence or compassion, like there is a way
to take the life of a creature that clearly doesn't want to die
benevolently ...) or 'they were bred to be eaten', like the animals
ever got a say in that? ;-(
Animals kill animals too , soem can be even crueler than humans.
It's just survival.
The thing is, keeping and eating well on a budget aren't all mutually
exclusive, especially with the right mindset and further (as confirmed
by all the medical health advice out there) we should be avoiding
processed meats (a known carcinogen), cutting down on read meat (that is
expensive even whilst subsided by the government) and increasing our
intake of veg, fruit, legumes and nuts etc?
Yes it all seems so easy.
Then we have the impact on our health by the climate (short and long
term, excessive deaths from extreme temperatures or falls on the ice
etc), antibiotic resistance from taking it via meat (that WILL be a big
one when the wrong pandemic hits) and the destruction of habitat and
wildlife that we *need* to survive, mostly done to growing feed for
livestock or grazing livestock directly. 8 billion humans, 80 billion
livestock (all needing food, water, space and creating pollution /
methane etc), it's not sustainable.
But it's sustainable for our projective lifetimes and that's the way we have always seen things.
But now things are a little differnt as we try to do things that won;t adversly affect thge next generations.
When was the last time you had a bug on your windscreen and most
pollination is done by plain bugs, not bees ... ;-(
Yes and that's what affecting bird populations rather than cats.
Yeah, bird populations are controlled more by the availability of food,
and subsequently, so is the population of the *natural* predators.
Of course there's something to consider there. If we kill off all the pollinating creatures, we won't have much veg stuff left to live off
anyway.
Indeed, there won't be much of anything surviving at that point.
I have just read an article about some of this, and it suggests even
arable land is becoming less usable because of contaminants and over producing of crops that are taking all the nutrients, and putting
nothing back.
Except where they use fertilisers, which are contaminating
waterways and the oceans.
It just seems to me, that unless we find a way to consume and waste
less, we're basically fucked.
And that's why nobody wants to look too far into the future, they won't
like what they find.
Also, maybe you could explain (depending on the 'product' you were
referring to) why some plain crisps contain milk and why mast prawn
flavoured crisps don't contain any prawn or milk (and so are vegan)?
I remember a report in NewScientist that pointed out that most "meat" flavoured crisps are perfectly safe for vegetarians/vegans but cheese
and onion are not.
On 17/12/2022 14:36, RJH wrote:
On 17 Dec 2022 at 13:38:58 GMT, T i m wrote:
I'm not a big reader but am finding David Graeber's Dawn of
Everything (free download) a real page turner and persuasive. Many of the >>>> civilsations we've crushed are utterly incomprehensible in our own terms - one
of the reasons they were annihilated.
I'll check that out (thanks). Daughter and partner like reading around
that sort of thing and may be of use to daughters environmental based
degree?
For me, it kind of explains why we are where we are. As to what to do about it
- I'll need to finish the book :-)
https://archive.org/embed/graeber-wengrow-dawn
Yeah, already downloaded and forwarded to daughter thanks Rob (and she
says thanks). ;-)
If you like a read, this also comes highly recommended ...
https://meatonomics.com/
On 19/12/2022 16:32, Andy Hewitt wrote:
<snip>
It wasn't until they got changed, so they could go into the chip
fryers, they then could be classed as vegetarian.
Or in the case of the current McPlant, into a different oven. Their
fries are vegan in the UK though, not the case in the States as I think
they are flavoured with beef or summat?
But of course for us (vegans) it's not even about food as such, it's
about any level of animal suffering or exploitation so like you say with
your (potato?) waste, if some animal by-product can be sold rather than having to be paid to be disposed of (like bones to make gelatin to make sweets), then it all supports the primary industry, which we don't want
to support.
So my next set of tyres will be vegan that will use a plant based
stearic acid rather than an animal based one (all Michelin tyres are
vegan I believe).
A more tricky one was I was recently give a whole load of quality /
branded clothes by a mate on the understanding I took what I wanted and
the rest went to charity. Not only don't I 'like' such branded stuff,
most of the jumpers was Marino wool and again, we exploit the sheep so
they went to charity. Some people (vegans) are ok with second hand
because they aren't contributing to the original supply / demand, but
even a second hand market can influence demand.
Like, I wouldn't wear anything with any form of fur (faux included),
because that continues the normalisation of wearing the skin of another species. It's not quite as 'obvious' with say faux leather shoes (or
shoes that look like 'ordinary' shoes that don't happen to be made using animals) as they don't particularly stand out like fur.
I have just read an article about some of this, and it suggests even
arable land is becoming less usable because of contaminants and over producing of crops that are taking all the nutrients, and putting
nothing back. Except where they use fertilisers, which are contaminating waterways and the oceans.
On 19/12/2022 17:58, T i m wrote:
On 19/12/2022 16:32, Andy Hewitt wrote:
<snip>
[snip]
It wasn't until they got changed, so they could go into the chip
fryers, they then could be classed as vegetarian.
Or in the case of the current McPlant, into a different oven. Their
fries are vegan in the UK though, not the case in the States as I
think they are flavoured with beef or summat?
Haha, well I work at the factory that makes all the UKs Mac Fries, so I
know what they're made of ;-).
But of course for us (vegans) it's not even about food as such, it's
about any level of animal suffering or exploitation so like you say
with your (potato?) waste, if some animal by-product can be sold
rather than having to be paid to be disposed of (like bones to make
gelatin to make sweets), then it all supports the primary industry,
which we don't want to support.
I get that, to a point. My feeling at the moment is that things will
take time to transition, so we probably just need to keep the wheels
turning as efficiently as possible. I understand your choice, of course.
It's not one I've made, although in fairness, we do eat a lot less meat
than we used to - mainly because as we get older, we are less able to
digest it well. However, I still want to get enjoyment out of my food,
and my choice is to do that, as much as I can, for as long as I can.
So my next set of tyres will be vegan that will use a plant based
stearic acid rather than an animal based one (all Michelin tyres are
vegan I believe).
I must admit, I didn't even consider that tyres would be made of any
animal products. It's just not something I thought of looking into.
I
spent 26 years in the motor trade, and it never came up as an issue. I assumed they were rubber, steel, and/or some synthetic materials.
A more tricky one was I was recently give a whole load of quality /
branded clothes by a mate on the understanding I took what I wanted
and the rest went to charity. Not only don't I 'like' such branded
stuff, most of the jumpers was Marino wool and again, we exploit the
sheep so they went to charity. Some people (vegans) are ok with second
hand because they aren't contributing to the original supply / demand,
but even a second hand market can influence demand.
Like, I wouldn't wear anything with any form of fur (faux included),
because that continues the normalisation of wearing the skin of
another species. It's not quite as 'obvious' with say faux leather
shoes (or shoes that look like 'ordinary' shoes that don't happen to
be made using animals) as they don't particularly stand out like fur.
Hmm, yes, a strange one that. There seems to have been a distinction
between using natural materials (such as leather), and use of fur as
separate issues. Personally, I do see it that way.
Andy Hewitt wrote:
[snip]
I have just read an article about some of this, and it suggests even
arable land is becoming less usable because of contaminants and over
producing of crops that are taking all the nutrients, and putting
nothing back. Except where they use fertilisers, which are
contaminating waterways and the oceans.
The fertilisers generally come form oil or coal ...
On 19/12/2022 20:21, Andy Hewitt wrote:
I get that, to a point. My feeling at the moment is that things will
take time to transition, so we probably just need to keep the wheels
turning as efficiently as possible. I understand your choice, of
course. It's not one I've made, although in fairness, we do eat a lot
less meat than we used to - mainly because as we get older, we are
less able to digest it well. However, I still want to get enjoyment
out of my food, and my choice is to do that, as much as I can, for as
long as I can.
Of course, why wouldn't you, why wouldn't I? But if every time you touch
some milk or eggs or meat you took responsibility for what that animal
had to go though, often costing them their life (forever), just for
you(one) to have a few minutes of taste pleasure, simply because of
habit, you might re-evaluate your position?
Hmm, yes, a strange one that. There seems to have been a distinctionNo, indeed they are the same of course, it's just that I think one is
between using natural materials (such as leather), and use of fur as
separate issues. Personally, I do see it that way.
more visible and so more likely to continue to normalise the situation.
Like when people first used BT headsets or earphones and walked along
the street talking to themselves. Now we don't bat an eyelid. ;-)
Like, daughter was considering a replacement car (second hand etc) and
so that involves finding something that *didn't* have any leather on the interior. Luckily this is another area where manufacturers are
considering and many vehicles are now available with faux leather etc
(Inc one of the Teslas). Not only is it less cruel, it's also part of reducing their carbon footprint and once again, the animal based
solutions are generally the worst from all sorts of perspectives.
https://www.media.volvocars.com/global/en-gb/media/pressreleases/286448/volvo-cars-to-go-leather-free-in-all-pure-electric-cars-as-part-of-animal-welfare-ambitions
https://www.buyacar.co.uk/cars/economical-cars/878/vegan-friendly-cars
It's quite possible that most people who aren't connected with any level
of veganism don't realise how far and wide it's gone already so whilst
you are right in that it's not going to happen overnight, it has been happening for a good few years now and seems to be accelerating quicker
all the time.
Like, we had the choice of two different vegan advent calendars in our
small Sainsbury's the other day. ;-)
On 17/12/2022 08:03, Andy Hewitt wrote:
<snip>
The problem I see, is that we have so much BS being bandied about in the media, it's become so hard to pick out what is accurate and worthy information, and what is not.
I work for a well known potato product factory, and you would bePotatoes get a good rep in this little video about food production and
horrified at the amount of water we consume producing a vegetarian
product (we have our own bore hole and water treatment plant).
the carbon footprint. ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1Hq8eVOMHs
Also, maybe you could explain (depending on the 'product' you were
referring to) why some plain crisps contain milk and why mast prawn
flavoured crisps don't contain any prawn or milk (and so are vegan)?
Cheers, T i m
On 19/12/2022 14:04, whisky-dave wrote:
On Saturday, 17 December 2022 at 13:39:02 UTC, T i m wrote:
On 17/12/2022 08:34, RJH wrote:
<snip>
Quite, as most of the third world countries demonstrate by surviving
Oh you could easily eat very well as a vegan and spend considerably less than
a meat eater.
with only an occasional taste of meat, fish or even eggs. ;-)
There's a differnce between surviving and living ;-)
And thre's a reason it's referred to as the third world.
One thing I've always been curious about is the average IQs of differnt countries and why it varies so much.
Partly because the standard IQ tests are based on a Western (US) concept
of intelligence. Also there is no adequate definition of IQ, it's what
IQ tests measure, which is a circular argument.
On Monday, 19 December 2022 at 16:50:15 UTC, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 19/12/2022 14:04, whisky-dave wrote:
On Saturday, 17 December 2022 at 13:39:02 UTC, T i m wrote:Partly because the standard IQ tests are based on a Western (US) concept
On 17/12/2022 08:34, RJH wrote:
<snip>
Quite, as most of the third world countries demonstrate by surviving
Oh you could easily eat very well as a vegan and spend considerably less than
a meat eater.
with only an occasional taste of meat, fish or even eggs. ;-)
There's a differnce between surviving and living ;-)
And thre's a reason it's referred to as the third world.
One thing I've always been curious about is the average IQs of differnt countries and why it varies so much.
of intelligence. Also there is no adequate definition of IQ, it's what
IQ tests measure, which is a circular argument.
Maybe but it does seem that those that left Africa is when 'inteligence' started to increase.
Belived to be due to the cooking of food and the differing types including fish.
Those countries where the were large costal areas, most of Europe is where a lot of science, technology and art started rather than
in central Africa or even the USA which still seems to be the centre of stupidity.
On 20/12/2022 13:27, whisky-dave wrote:
On Monday, 19 December 2022 at 16:50:15 UTC, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 19/12/2022 14:04, whisky-dave wrote:
On Saturday, 17 December 2022 at 13:39:02 UTC, T i m wrote:Partly because the standard IQ tests are based on a Western (US) concept >> of intelligence. Also there is no adequate definition of IQ, it's what
On 17/12/2022 08:34, RJH wrote:
<snip>
Quite, as most of the third world countries demonstrate by surviving >>>> with only an occasional taste of meat, fish or even eggs. ;-)
Oh you could easily eat very well as a vegan and spend considerably less than
a meat eater.
There's a differnce between surviving and living ;-)
And thre's a reason it's referred to as the third world.
One thing I've always been curious about is the average IQs of differnt countries and why it varies so much.
IQ tests measure, which is a circular argument.
Maybe but it does seem that those that left Africa is when 'inteligence' started to increase.
Belived to be due to the cooking of food and the differing types including fish.
Those countries where the were large costal areas, most of Europe is where a lot of science, technology and art started rather than
in central Africa or even the USA which still seems to be the centre of stupidity.
You'd better tell the Chinese and the Indians that.
or even the USA which still seems to be the centre of stupidity.
On 19/12/2022 14:04, whisky-dave wrote:
On Saturday, 17 December 2022 at 13:39:02 UTC, T i m wrote:
On 17/12/2022 08:34, RJH wrote:
<snip>
Quite, as most of the third world countries demonstrate by surviving
Oh you could easily eat very well as a vegan and spend considerably less than
a meat eater.
with only an occasional taste of meat, fish or even eggs. ;-)
There's a differnce between surviving and living ;-)The term is used to mainly indicate it's possible to live a long and
healthy life without meat.
Both the British and American dietetic Societies (each made up of
thousands of nutritionists) state that a 'balanced vegan diet is good
for all ages'.
And thre's a reason it's referred to as the third world.
One thing I've always been curious about is the average IQs of differnt countries and why it varies so much.
I was talking to a guy the other day that when he goes home (Bangladesh) >> he often puts together food packages, lentils, legumes, chickpeas and
the like to give to those where he lives as he can afford to do so and
that will help the people for far longer than a small piece of meat for >> the same money.
Is it economical for him to ship the footstuffs rather than buy them when he is in Bangladesh.Probably ... or get one of his family members who still lives there to
do it (and I believe they do), but that's not really the point for him
when he's there.
I've not managed to work out whether the vegan stuff that is processed is good or bad.I don't think any processed food is 'as good' as non-processed food, especially if the processing includes things like smoking that
introduces even more bad stuff.
I've cut out most meat and I quite like meat substituates that taste like meat bit how healthy they are I don't know.Well, any non-meat isn't going to contain antibiotics for a start and
isn't likely to contain as much of the wrong fat etc.
There are some really strange sounding 'burgers' we have tried, like a 'beetroot burger' (from Lidl) that when put in a bun with some onion, cheese, tomato, lettuce and some burger relish, you don't (or we didn't) really even consider it wasn't 'a burger'. The Burger King 'Plant based whoppers' are too close to looking and tasting like real meat that it
makes us uncomfortable (and not exactly cheap either). The McD's McPlant
is cheaper and again, perfectly fine to satisfy that 'I'm hungry and out
and just want to eat' moment.
Again, no one eats any of that sort of food, or a Greggs vegan sausage
roll for their health. ;-=)
Because we are fairly busy I thought we could order a couple of Pappa
Johns vegan Pizzas (two for the price of one) but still £23 quid
delivered. Instead I bought two Plant Pioneers lasagna (£2 each) and
with the addition of some small frozen veg not a bad meal. Not exactly
'healthy' (either) way but it was just a change. ;-)
How do you evalute the healthyness, it's more than just the ingredients and then the cooking.No, not really. I do and have done most the cooking for some time now
and I now look upon any meal that's supposed to be 'a meal' (rather than
a snack) as having three components, the veg (as pre-vegan), the carbs
(as pre-vegan) and the protein. So, if I was doing a spag-bol or CCC it would be the same as I'd do one pre vegan, just using the vegan mince.
If I was doing a curry then again, the veg would be the same (generally
like a veggi type curry),
as would the sauce (even Sharwoods do a nice
vegan curry sauce but others are cheaper) rice, plus some checkpeas and
or lentils and either some chicken like pieces, or slices of tofu, or Sainsbury's do some chicken like chunks (they go in the oven for 15
mins) that give that meaty 'bite'.
Veg casseroles go in the electric pressure cooker and last several days, some Nooch sprinkled in for the taste and a bit of B12, a fried
breakfast is pretty much the same with vegan sausages and bacon (loads
of options on both) just no egg. A tofu scramble on toast is ok though.
I see frozen chips cooked in beef fat or duck fat, and even goose fat, then there's ground nut oilMost vegetable oils are fine though and what my chippy uses. I'll either make my own chips in the over with some veg oil (like a chip shaped
(my local chippie) or sunflower oil and who could afford to fill a deep fat fryier with truffel oil ;-)
roast potato) or buy vegan frozen oven chips from Sainsburys, Lidl or Iceland.
<snip>
Also, how many people actually *chose* to eat meat ... or drink
milk after weaning? The answer, 'very few', we did because we were told >> to as children or that's just what we were given.
It goes back quite a long way 4000+ years . We learned from our ancestors then our educators, and now it;s a mix of both andSure, but I mean now and as individuals. If you were in a coma from
we have health as the 3rd leg adding to the mix.
birth to say 10 years old and were introduced to animals and told (as we
all generally were) to respect and be kind to them all ... and then
happened on someone about to kill a cow, I'm pretty sure most people in
that situation would feel it wasn't the right thing to do.
eg. We are no longer talking about survival, we are talking abut choice,
and what choices we should be making for ourselves (health and morally),
the planet (environmentally) and for the animals (compassionately and
again, for the environment / survival of all living things).
If we did ever
question where 'meat' came from we were normally just told to get on
with it and if any explanation was given, it was just a regurgitation of >> what they knew to be the same lies they were fed, like 'it's done
humanely'
The definition of humanely has changed too, and of course whether it matters.True, but again that has changed out of the lack of necessity to rely on animals to survive. If you have to kill an animal to survive then you
would still try to do it as quickly and painlessly as possible. Also,
after that animal had live as near normal live as possible, unlikely to
be in a barn and never seeing daylight.
(humane: with benevolence or compassion, like there is a way
to take the life of a creature that clearly doesn't want to die
benevolently ...) or 'they were bred to be eaten', like the animals
ever got a say in that? ;-(
Animals kill animals too , soem can be even crueler than humans.Of course, that's called 'nature'.
But I'm not sure many of us use what
animals do to set our own moral compasses?
And because they don't have
the choice (they can't get bank accounts etc), they don't have the moral agency we do. Because we do have moral agency, we should use it, eg, not killing an innocent sentient being when we don't need to.
It's just survival.
For them it is yes, not for most of us in the Western World with
thousands of non-animal products to choose from (many of which we are already consuming of course).
<snip>
The thing is, keeping and eating well on a budget aren't all mutually
exclusive, especially with the right mindset and further (as confirmed
by all the medical health advice out there) we should be avoiding
processed meats (a known carcinogen), cutting down on read meat (that is >> expensive even whilst subsided by the government) and increasing our
intake of veg, fruit, legumes and nuts etc?
Yes it all seems so easy.It is. Ok, it's not in that you start having to check what things
contain, no bad thing if you care for your health etc but that's partly because we are in a transition period. Even in the three years I've been vegan and doing all the shopping I've noticed how much better the
labelling is. No longer am I having to read all the ingredients (well,
you mostly have to look for the normal allergens like milk and egg etc)
as it has a nice 'Vegan' sign on the front or 'Suitable for vegetarians
and vegans' on the back then all the better.
We are happy to consider something MADE without animal products counts
as vegan, whereas many items can't be called vegan because of the
potential of cross contamination with say milk or eggs. Some will also
not consider something to not be vegan if the flow line bearings were lubricated with an animal based grease. I sort of get that but wouldn't
be too bothered as long as the line also produced vegan stuff.
But it's sustainable for our projective lifetimes and that's the way we have always seen things.True, depending on how old you are now possibly. But some of us don't
just think of ourselves, we think of those who will follow, especially
our own kids. Further, our daughter has decided to not have children
because she doesn't want to bring any life into a world going the way it
is. I also 'question' our choice to bring a life into the world as it
now is.
Maybe when you really start to look into it all you understand
better just what level of mess we are in.
Also, as an electronics techGreenhosue efect etc...
I'm fully familiar with the term 'thermal runaway'.
But now things are a little differnt as we try to do things that won;t adversly affect thge next generations.That's the hope, the problem is I'm not sure how many want to *actually* help, over just putting a sticker in their car window. ;-(
When was the last time you had a bug on your windscreen and most
pollination is done by plain bugs, not bees ... ;-(
Yes and that's what affecting bird populations rather than cats.Cat's aren't helping though?
Native birds might have different opportunities (nesting, feeding) if
they weren't being predated by a non-native animal they haven't evolved beside.
And pets are also a problem, given they are also generally being fed on animals. Daughter has her dog on a balanced plant based diet because she couldn't see the point of rescuing one animal then killing others to
feed him on [1]. Given the sort of cr*p that goes into many commercial
pet foods and the whole antibiotic resistance thing, she happy he's not eating it (plus he actually loves his veg). ;-)
Going to daughters pre-xmyth for a meal soon and I know she will put on
a brilliant (vegan) spread. I never realised how heavy the cognitive dissonance was weighing on me.
Cheers, T i m
[1] It does seem to be difficult / impossible for some people to get
their heads around the whole animal rights / respect thing. They will
drop their burger to go to the aid of a dog being abused or an animal
that has been hit by a car with no sense of irony.
whisky-dave wrote:
[snip]
or even the USA which still seems to be the centre of stupidity.
Probably reflects the puritan religious extremism of the early settlers arriving from the UK.
--
Graham J
On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 14:37:47 UTC, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 20/12/2022 13:27, whisky-dave wrote:
On Monday, 19 December 2022 at 16:50:15 UTC, Graeme Wall wrote:You'd better tell the Chinese and the Indians that.
On 19/12/2022 14:04, whisky-dave wrote:
On Saturday, 17 December 2022 at 13:39:02 UTC, T i m wrote:Partly because the standard IQ tests are based on a Western (US) concept >>>> of intelligence. Also there is no adequate definition of IQ, it's what >>>> IQ tests measure, which is a circular argument.
On 17/12/2022 08:34, RJH wrote:
<snip>
Quite, as most of the third world countries demonstrate by surviving >>>>>> with only an occasional taste of meat, fish or even eggs. ;-)
Oh you could easily eat very well as a vegan and spend considerably less than
a meat eater.
There's a differnce between surviving and living ;-)
And thre's a reason it's referred to as the third world.
One thing I've always been curious about is the average IQs of differnt countries and why it varies so much.
Maybe but it does seem that those that left Africa is when 'inteligence' started to increase.
Belived to be due to the cooking of food and the differing types including fish.
Those countries where the were large costal areas, most of Europe is where a lot of science, technology and art started rather than
in central Africa or even the USA which still seems to be the centre of stupidity.
There's growing evidence that they didn't come from Africa .
I believe it was 'tested on animals' (up to 1995) as in 'fed to' and
whilst that is still a form of exploitation (given it was an experiment
using an animal) and assuming no animals suffered and died (unlike most animals used for other testing that not only causes them to suffer and
die in pain and slowly, is often completely pointless), the final
outcome has likely saved millions of animal lives since.
I've heard that quorn isn't really vegan as it was tested on animals.
Then there's the ethics of the company involved I don't know any vegetarian that would go to MoDs
and have a veggie burger or anything else from them depsite the product being meat free.
On 20/12/2022 15:28, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 14:37:47 UTC, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 20/12/2022 13:27, whisky-dave wrote:
On Monday, 19 December 2022 at 16:50:15 UTC, Graeme Wall wrote:You'd better tell the Chinese and the Indians that.
On 19/12/2022 14:04, whisky-dave wrote:
On Saturday, 17 December 2022 at 13:39:02 UTC, T i m wrote:Partly because the standard IQ tests are based on a Western (US) concept
On 17/12/2022 08:34, RJH wrote:
<snip>
Quite, as most of the third world countries demonstrate by surviving >>>>>> with only an occasional taste of meat, fish or even eggs. ;-)
Oh you could easily eat very well as a vegan and spend considerably less than
a meat eater.
There's a differnce between surviving and living ;-)
And thre's a reason it's referred to as the third world.
One thing I've always been curious about is the average IQs of differnt countries and why it varies so much.
of intelligence. Also there is no adequate definition of IQ, it's what >>>> IQ tests measure, which is a circular argument.
Maybe but it does seem that those that left Africa is when 'inteligence' started to increase.
Belived to be due to the cooking of food and the differing types including fish.
Those countries where the were large costal areas, most of Europe is where a lot of science, technology and art started rather than
in central Africa or even the USA which still seems to be the centre of stupidity.
There's growing evidence that they didn't come from Africa .
They all came from Africa originally and the vast majority don't live
near the sea. But they still managed to make impressive advances in
science, technology and art while the causasians were still banging
rocks together.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 15:58:12 UTC, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 20/12/2022 15:28, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 14:37:47 UTC, Graeme Wall wrote:They all came from Africa originally and the vast majority don't live
On 20/12/2022 13:27, whisky-dave wrote:
On Monday, 19 December 2022 at 16:50:15 UTC, Graeme Wall wrote:You'd better tell the Chinese and the Indians that.
On 19/12/2022 14:04, whisky-dave wrote:
On Saturday, 17 December 2022 at 13:39:02 UTC, T i m wrote:Partly because the standard IQ tests are based on a Western (US) concept >>>>>> of intelligence. Also there is no adequate definition of IQ, it's what >>>>>> IQ tests measure, which is a circular argument.
On 17/12/2022 08:34, RJH wrote:
<snip>
Quite, as most of the third world countries demonstrate by surviving >>>>>>>> with only an occasional taste of meat, fish or even eggs. ;-)
Oh you could easily eat very well as a vegan and spend considerably less than
a meat eater.
There's a differnce between surviving and living ;-)
And thre's a reason it's referred to as the third world.
One thing I've always been curious about is the average IQs of differnt countries and why it varies so much.
Maybe but it does seem that those that left Africa is when 'inteligence' started to increase.
Belived to be due to the cooking of food and the differing types including fish.
Those countries where the were large costal areas, most of Europe is where a lot of science, technology and art started rather than
in central Africa or even the USA which still seems to be the centre of stupidity.
There's growing evidence that they didn't come from Africa .
near the sea. But they still managed to make impressive advances in
science, technology and art while the causasians were still banging
rocks together.
But as yet we haven't seen evidence of that. But what are these advances There's sparse enough evidence and it''s across Africa,
so there's no way to see how inteligent the differnt species were. Was it that the most inteligent either left Africa
or became more inteligent after they left.
We all see how advanced the Egyptian pryamids were but there were other civilisations before them take Göbekli Tepe in Turkey some 5000 years before the pryamids .
perhaps those from Göbekli Tepe went back to Africa/Egypt after some naturla diasaster.
On 21/12/2022 09:33, T i m wrote:
I believe it was 'tested on animals' (up to 1995) as in 'fed to' and
whilst that is still a form of exploitation (given it was an
experiment using an animal) and assuming no animals suffered and died
(unlike most animals used for other testing that not only causes them
to suffer and die in pain and slowly, is often completely pointless),
the final outcome has likely saved millions of animal lives since.
I take it you resolutely follow your principles and refuse all forms of modern medicine and clinical treatment
as these all involve some form of
animal experiments to ensure they are safe to be administered to human beings.
You presumably regard the latter as completely pointless.
Note animal experiments for purely cosmetic purposes were banned many
years ago but don't let facts get in the way of your ill-informed
propaganda.
On 20/12/2022 13:16, whisky-dave wrote:
I've heard that quorn isn't really vegan as it was tested on animals.I believe it was 'tested on animals' (up to 1995) as in 'fed to' and
whilst that is still a form of exploitation (given it was an experiment using an animal) and assuming no animals suffered and died (unlike most animals used for other testing that not only causes them to suffer and
die in pain and slowly, is often completely pointless), the final
outcome has likely saved millions of animal lives since.
Then there's the ethics of the company involved I don't know any vegetarian that would go to MoDsAnd now you know of at least 2 vegans who will go to McD's and have a
and have a veggie burger or anything else from them depsite the product being meat free.
McPlant meal because without supporting these otherwise animal killing companies via their vegan lines, they never will offer them.
'Of course'
if there is a wholly vegan / plant based food place available where /
when we happen to be hungry will will go there, just that's not so often
an option, all be it getting better as time goes on.
Greggs started off with their vegan sausage rolls and because of how
well they were received (doing enough extra business that they gave all their employees a £300 bonus), from there they have continued to expand their vegan product lines.
I often buy several boxes of their 'Vegan friendly' Mince Pies
them away to people I consider 'good causes'. The staff at my doctors,
the Isabel Hospice shop, my MOT garage, the guys in the refuse trucks
etc. Everyone I have given them to and spoken to afterwards state how
nice they are and they seem to look forward to the next batch. ;-)
I do it partly because it's a nice / easy thing to do and partly because maybe a few people who think all #'vegan food' is just grass, realise
it's far from that. ;-)
We had or 'winterval' afternoon / evening at our daughters yesterday and they really looked after us. The main meal was mostly home made with yer
std roast veg (potatoes, parsnip, carrot), sprouts, some red cabbage
mixed with stuff, stuffing, a lovely thick gravy (just Aldi I think) and
a lentil roast with all sorts of ingredients, including nuts and
chickpeas and some 'Taste the difference no turkey crown with savoury stuffing' slices.
We were served fairly big portions but I admit to having 2nds and even
3rds and given they only have a small kitchen, he did a very good job (mostly while daughter and I took the plant-based-fed rescue dog out
for a walk for a couple of hours).
I was given a selection of vegan chocolates, including a Terry's
Chocolate Orange bar as we used to have the actual chocolate oranges and
I don't think they do do a vegan one yet.
A lovely xmyth pud and custard or cream and plenty of tea and coffee
etc. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
On 21/12/2022 12:16, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 15:58:12 UTC, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 20/12/2022 15:28, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 14:37:47 UTC, Graeme Wall wrote:They all came from Africa originally and the vast majority don't live
On 20/12/2022 13:27, whisky-dave wrote:
On Monday, 19 December 2022 at 16:50:15 UTC, Graeme Wall wrote:You'd better tell the Chinese and the Indians that.
On 19/12/2022 14:04, whisky-dave wrote:
On Saturday, 17 December 2022 at 13:39:02 UTC, T i m wrote:Partly because the standard IQ tests are based on a Western (US) concept
On 17/12/2022 08:34, RJH wrote:There's a differnce between surviving and living ;-)
<snip>
Quite, as most of the third world countries demonstrate by surviving
Oh you could easily eat very well as a vegan and spend considerably less than
a meat eater.
with only an occasional taste of meat, fish or even eggs. ;-) >>>>>>>
And thre's a reason it's referred to as the third world.
One thing I've always been curious about is the average IQs of differnt countries and why it varies so much.
of intelligence. Also there is no adequate definition of IQ, it's what
IQ tests measure, which is a circular argument.
Maybe but it does seem that those that left Africa is when 'inteligence' started to increase.
Belived to be due to the cooking of food and the differing types including fish.
Those countries where the were large costal areas, most of Europe is where a lot of science, technology and art started rather than
in central Africa or even the USA which still seems to be the centre of stupidity.
There's growing evidence that they didn't come from Africa .
near the sea. But they still managed to make impressive advances in
science, technology and art while the causasians were still banging
rocks together.
But as yet we haven't seen evidence of that. But what are these advances There's sparse enough evidence and it''s across Africa,
so there's no way to see how inteligent the differnt species were. Was it that the most inteligent either left Africa
or became more inteligent after they left.
We all see how advanced the Egyptian pryamids were but there were other civilisations before them take Göbekli Tepe in Turkey some 5000 years before the pryamids .
perhaps those from Göbekli Tepe went back to Africa/Egypt after some naturla diasaster.
You are compressing tens of thousands of years of history, the people
who built the Pyramids were a branch of a Mediterranean group of peoples.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
I agree but quorn was never in the natural diet of any animal it was fed to.
Then there's the ethics of the company involved I don't know any vegetarian that would go to MoDsAnd now you know of at least 2 vegans who will go to McD's and have a
and have a veggie burger or anything else from them depsite the product being meat free.
Well no, as you're still giving money to a large cooperation that is destroying
the enviroment and still doesn;t have a good record on animal welfare.
But there are other issues
McPlant meal because without supporting these otherwise animal killing
companies via their vegan lines, they never will offer them.
I think they stopped offering them in the USA because they weren't profitable.
'Of course'
if there is a wholly vegan / plant based food place available where /
when we happen to be hungry will will go there, just that's not so often
an option, all be it getting better as time goes on.
I often wondered how my friends survived before MoD and other burger bars offered meat free .
I wonder if they used separate cooking utensils as I've heard you can get animal fat in your veggie burger.
although I had heard they have changed that in some outlets.
Is Mcdonalds vegan burger actually vegan?
Although the McPlant patty is made with Beyond Meat's plant-based protein, the burger also contains ingredients that are not suitable for vegans, such as dairy cheese and mayonnaise-style sauce,
with the patty cooked on the same grill as meat-based products andeggs.4 Jul 2022
although I had heardd they have changed that in some outlets.
Greggs started off with their vegan sausage rolls and because of how
well they were received (doing enough extra business that they gave all
their employees a £300 bonus), from there they have continued to expand
their vegan product lines.
Yep nothing wrong with that.
I often buy several boxes of their 'Vegan friendly' Mince Pies
I like the puka ones .
and give
them away to people I consider 'good causes'. The staff at my doctors,
the Isabel Hospice shop, my MOT garage, the guys in the refuse trucks
etc. Everyone I have given them to and spoken to afterwards state how
nice they are and they seem to look forward to the next batch. ;-)
A few years ago we passed by some eastern europeans drinking on the steet from cans of that chemical 'foreign' crap you get in the bargin sections.
We sort of laughed as we walked past and they said we do nothing wrong just have fun so we repiled, it;s the cheap chemical crap you're drink we find amusing
and we gave them a bottle of spitefire and either an abbots ale or a speckled hen can;t remmber and said try some decent british beer.
My friends are veggie(since the mid 1980s) trying to be vegan but of course there's very few decent beers that are Vegan.
They drink Soya 'milk' which is mostly imported from china which they say to me don;t order stuff from china.
I do tell them that it also shouldn't be labled milk as it's against trade descriptions so called it soya oil.
I do it partly because it's a nice / easy thing to do and partly because
maybe a few people who think all #'vegan food' is just grass, realise
it's far from that. ;-)
I don't label myself I let others do that, I'm just trying to eat less meat .
But if I want a kebab on the way home I'll have one.
A true vegitaian will not eat meat
, a vegan goes further and will not support any company they see as bad as fare as animnal welfare goes
and will not eat anything that contains meat or dairy products
absolute thumbs down and a never to be repeated purchase.
We had or 'winterval' afternoon / evening at our daughters yesterday and
they really looked after us. The main meal was mostly home made with yer
std roast veg (potatoes, parsnip, carrot), sprouts, some red cabbage
mixed with stuff, stuffing, a lovely thick gravy (just Aldi I think) and
a lentil roast with all sorts of ingredients, including nuts and
chickpeas and some 'Taste the difference no turkey crown with savoury
stuffing' slices.
Had to look that up as it;s sounds like the sort of thing I'd like.
Very mixed opions it seems, this was the most amusing
QUITE DISGUSTING
Although we are not vegans we thought we would give this a try - disaaaaaster darling. Extremely strange texture in fact pretty close to chewing on the sole of my old school plimsoles. The only positive note was the stuffing - tasty. Sadly it is an
We were served fairly big portions but I admit to having 2nds and even
3rds and given they only have a small kitchen, he did a very good job
(mostly while daughter and I took the plant-based-fed rescue dog out
for a walk for a couple of hours).
I don;t think a true vegan would risk harming their pet,
might be OK for a couple of months maybe years but we don;t know the full impact of such things
after 100,000 of years of eating meat ,
at least with us humans we can say something isn;t quite right.
https://www.bva.co.uk/news-and-blog/blog-article/is-it-safe-to-feed-my-dog-a-plant-based-diet-hold-the-greens-only-meals-why-the-jury-is-still-out-on-vegan-dog-diets/
I was given a selection of vegan chocolates, including a Terry's
Chocolate Orange bar as we used to have the actual chocolate oranges and
I don't think they do do a vegan one yet.
That's a suprise , not that I like chocolate orange that much even though we always seemed to have one at christmas
A lovely xmyth pud and custard or cream and plenty of tea and coffee
I hope you mean 'plastic cream' and not real cream, not keen on the pub but I like the stolen cakes or whatever they are called.
On 21/12/2022 09:46, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 21/12/2022 09:33, T i m wrote:
I believe it was 'tested on animals' (up to 1995) as in 'fed to' and
whilst that is still a form of exploitation (given it was an
experiment using an animal) and assuming no animals suffered and died
(unlike most animals used for other testing that not only causes them
to suffer and die in pain and slowly, is often completely pointless),
the final outcome has likely saved millions of animal lives since.
I take it you resolutely follow your principles and refuse all forms
of modern medicine and clinical treatment
Wherever possible and practicable yes. Like we recently would only have
the cell based flu jab, rather than the egg based (3 fertilised eggs per shot), even though the latter wasn't as effective for us. We considered
the options, considered the circumstances and so the risks /
consequences and did what we did. Just as we might under the exact same circumstances but happened to have an egg allergy of course (when few
would ever question the outcome).
as these all involve some form of animal experiments to ensure they
are safe to be administered to human beings.
Indeed, and there are many atrocities inflicted on animals in the name
of 'human health research' that has no bearing on humans what so ever.
You presumably regard the latter as completely pointless.
No, I can see they have a point, just that in many of the cases the
point is pointless.
Note animal experiments for purely cosmetic purposes were banned many
years ago but don't let facts get in the way of your ill-informed
propaganda.
Just so we are clear here:
"Veganism: "A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—*as
far as is possible and practicable—all* forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives
for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms
it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly
or partly from animals." - The Vegan Society"
Please take that as read and should I assume from your reply that you
don't support that ethic or you were triggered by something in particular?
On 21/12/2022 13:18, T i m wrote:
On 21/12/2022 09:46, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 21/12/2022 09:33, T i m wrote:
I believe it was 'tested on animals' (up to 1995) as in 'fed to' and
whilst that is still a form of exploitation (given it was an
experiment using an animal) and assuming no animals suffered and died
(unlike most animals used for other testing that not only causes them
to suffer and die in pain and slowly, is often completely pointless),
the final outcome has likely saved millions of animal lives since.
I take it you resolutely follow your principles and refuse all forms
of modern medicine and clinical treatment
Wherever possible and practicable yes. Like we recently would only have
the cell based flu jab, rather than the egg based (3 fertilised eggs per
shot), even though the latter wasn't as effective for us. We considered
the options, considered the circumstances and so the risks /
consequences and did what we did. Just as we might under the exact same
circumstances but happened to have an egg allergy of course (when few
would ever question the outcome).
as these all involve some form of animal experiments to ensure they
are safe to be administered to human beings.
Indeed, and there are many atrocities inflicted on animals in the name
of 'human health research' that has no bearing on humans what so ever.
You presumably regard the latter as completely pointless.
No, I can see they have a point, just that in many of the cases the
point is pointless.
That is a non-answer, Either you accept there is a need to ensure they
are safe for humans or you don't.
Note animal experiments for purely cosmetic purposes were banned many
years ago but don't let facts get in the way of your ill-informed
propaganda.
Just so we are clear here:
"Veganism: "A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—*as
far as is possible and practicable—all* forms of exploitation of, and
cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by
extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives
for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms
it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly
or partly from animals." - The Vegan Society"
Please take that as read and should I assume from your reply that you
don't support that ethic or you were triggered by something in particular?
Please note, for example, that shearing sheep does them no harm and
actually is beneficial to them in preventing damage to their health from overheating.
On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 14:37:47 UTC, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 20/12/2022 13:27, whisky-dave wrote:
On Monday, 19 December 2022 at 16:50:15 UTC, Graeme Wall wrote:You'd better tell the Chinese and the Indians that.
On 19/12/2022 14:04, whisky-dave wrote:
On Saturday, 17 December 2022 at 13:39:02 UTC, T i m wrote:Partly because the standard IQ tests are based on a Western (US) concept >>>> of intelligence. Also there is no adequate definition of IQ, it's what >>>> IQ tests measure, which is a circular argument.
On 17/12/2022 08:34, RJH wrote:
<snip>
Quite, as most of the third world countries demonstrate by surviving >>>>>> with only an occasional taste of meat, fish or even eggs. ;-)
Oh you could easily eat very well as a vegan and spend considerably less than
a meat eater.
There's a differnce between surviving and living ;-)
And thre's a reason it's referred to as the third world.
One thing I've always been curious about is the average IQs of
differnt countries and why it varies so much.
Maybe but it does seem that those that left Africa is when
'inteligence' started to increase.
Belived to be due to the cooking of food and the differing types including fish.
Those countries where the were large costal areas, most of Europe is
where a lot of science, technology and art started rather than
in central Africa or even the USA which still seems to be the centre of stupidity.
There's growing evidence that they didn't come from Africa .
On 21/12/2022 09:46, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 21/12/2022 09:33, T i m wrote:
I believe it was 'tested on animals' (up to 1995) as in 'fed to' and
whilst that is still a form of exploitation (given it was an
experiment using an animal) and assuming no animals suffered and died
(unlike most animals used for other testing that not only causes them
to suffer and die in pain and slowly, is often completely pointless),
the final outcome has likely saved millions of animal lives since.
I take it you resolutely follow your principles and refuse all forms of
modern medicine and clinical treatment
Wherever possible and practicable yes. Like we recently would only have
the cell based flu jab, rather than the egg based (3 fertilised eggs per shot), even though the latter wasn't as effective for us.
We considered
the options, considered the circumstances and so the risks /
consequences and did what we did. Just as we might under the exact same circumstances but happened to have an egg allergy of course (when few
would ever question the outcome).
as these all involve some form of
animal experiments to ensure they are safe to be administered to human
beings.
Indeed, and there are many atrocities inflicted on animals in the name
of 'human health research' that has no bearing on humans what so ever.
I take it you resolutely follow your principles and refuse all forms of
modern medicine and clinical treatment
Wherever possible and practicable yes. Like we recently would only have
the cell based flu jab, rather than the egg based (3 fertilised eggs per
shot), even though the latter wasn't as effective for us.
Regardless of how the formulation was prepared all vaccine and drug development requires by law some testing on animals.
The only alternative is to test on humans.
Indeed, and there are many atrocities inflicted on animals in the name
of 'human health research' that has no bearing on humans what so ever.
Such as?
Please take that as read and should I assume from your reply that you
don't support that ethic or you were triggered by something in
particular?
Please note, for example, that shearing sheep does them no harm
and
actually is beneficial to them in preventing damage to their health from overheating.
I see T r o l l is at it again. Pity. A year or so ago he got fed up with uk.d-i-y, after trying for some time to peddle this alleged vegan bollocks
there, and getting seriously spanked for his pains.
Then he showed up here
asking sensible questions about Apple products, which I though was a step forward.
Now I see though that somehow the conversation has morphed back to
the same twaddle as previously.
My advice is the naughty step.
On 21/12/2022 18:21, Chris wrote:
<snip>
I take it you resolutely follow your principles and refuse all forms of >>>> modern medicine and clinical treatment
Wherever possible and practicable yes. Like we recently would only have
the cell based flu jab, rather than the egg based (3 fertilised eggs per >>> shot), even though the latter wasn't as effective for us.
Regardless of how the formulation was prepared all vaccine and drug
development requires by law some testing on animals.
Maybe so, but laws generally lag morality and it should sound as fair to
us (in 2022) as aliens using us for their testing.
The only alternative is to test on humans.
And so it should be then, given few animal tests actually relate
directly to us and they have to be tested on humans in the end in any case?
<snip>
Indeed, and there are many atrocities inflicted on animals in the name
of 'human health research' that has no bearing on humans what so ever.
Such as?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4594046/
The only alternative is to test on humans.
And so it should be then, given few animal tests actually relate
directly to us and they have to be tested on humans in the end in any case?
You think that's moral?
That's bordering on eugenics.
<snip>
Indeed, and there are many atrocities inflicted on animals in the name >>>> of 'human health research' that has no bearing on humans what so ever.
Such as?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4594046/
No-one claims animal testing is perfect and has limitations.
The problem is
there are few alternatives and those that exists have serious flaws.
T i m <[email protected]> wrote:
On 21/12/2022 22:02, Chris wrote:
<snip>
The only alternative is to test on humans.
And so it should be then, given few animal tests actually relate
directly to us and they have to be tested on humans in the end in any case?
You think that's moral?
You think causing another species to suffer and die for our problems is
moral?
I do.
As does society in the whole.
And the law.
Whereas your position regarding testing on humans is categorically immoral and illegal.
Although, I am aware some groups consider humans less
important than animals, but that's an extremist view which has no place in modern society.
You would just accept it if aliens told you it was going to be
conducted on you, or if they just limited it to your children or elderly?
Lol. That's a stretch.
That's bordering on eugenics.
But at least it's not (the often pointless) torture and persecution of a
different species? ;-(
No-one is persecuting or torturing anything.
You can't believe everything
that the likes of PETA tell you.
What criteria would *you* use to determine just what suffering you can
cause to another living being? Intelligence ... or just as long as they
don't look exactly the same as us?
The law is a pretty good guide ;)
Animal testing is very strictly regulated in this country and most western countries.
But if *we* suffer from an illness and may possibly even die from it,
what right or justification does that give us to cause members of other
species to suffer and die as well?
Because we can.
Our mere presence on Earth causes suffering and death or
even extinction to thousands of species the world over.
If you're that
concerned you shouldn't have had kids.
I mean, where might that stop. Difference species, different colour,
different religion, different gender, different sexual orientation,
different hair colour ... (ah, too late, we have already done all those
as well). ;-(
Right. And as a society we've identified where to draw the line.
In order
to improve human lives it's ok to use animals as humanely as possible.
Eugenics is not ok.
Simples.
Obviously, things can and will change, however, I don't see them changing much any time soon.
Would you subject *your* dog to testing if you had a reasonable idea
that it would cause them to suffer and (eventually) die and where the
chances are the product would still need testing on humans in the end
anyway?
A pet dog would be useless.
The testing on animals and then on humans serve
different purposes.
That's why we're do both.
My cats cause more harm and distress to mice than any scientist.
Whilst we are wasting time persecuting other species we aren't putting
effort into discovering / inventing more effective and compassionate
alternatives.
You can guarantee that if someone came up with a non-animal way for experimentation it would be picked up immediately the world over.
Animal
testing is very expensive and logistically complex.
The UK government has the three Rs initiative and funding is available. People are putting effort into it and have been for decades.
On 21/12/2022 22:02, Chris wrote:
<snip>
You think that's moral?The only alternative is to test on humans.
And so it should be then, given few animal tests actually relate
directly to us and they have to be tested on humans in the end in any case? >>
You think causing another species to suffer and die for our problems is moral?
You would just accept it if aliens told you it was going to be
conducted on you, or if they just limited it to your children or elderly?
That's bordering on eugenics.
But at least it's not (the often pointless) torture and persecution of a different species? ;-(
What criteria would *you* use to determine just what suffering you can
cause to another living being? Intelligence ... or just as long as they
don't look exactly the same as us?
<snip>
Such as?
Indeed, and there are many atrocities inflicted on animals in the name >>>>> of 'human health research' that has no bearing on humans what so ever. >>>>
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4594046/
No-one claims animal testing is perfect and has limitations.
Quite.
The problem is
there are few alternatives and those that exists have serious flaws.
But if *we* suffer from an illness and may possibly even die from it,
what right or justification does that give us to cause members of other species to suffer and die as well?
I mean, where might that stop. Difference species, different colour, different religion, different gender, different sexual orientation,
different hair colour ... (ah, too late, we have already done all those
as well). ;-(
Would you subject *your* dog to testing if you had a reasonable idea
that it would cause them to suffer and (eventually) die and where the
chances are the product would still need testing on humans in the end
anyway?
Whilst we are wasting time persecuting other species we aren't putting
effort into discovering / inventing more effective and compassionate alternatives.
On 19/12/2022 21:01, T i m wrote:
On 19/12/2022 20:21, Andy Hewitt wrote:
[snip]
I get that, to a point. My feeling at the moment is that things will
take time to transition, so we probably just need to keep the wheels
turning as efficiently as possible. I understand your choice, of
course. It's not one I've made, although in fairness, we do eat a lot
less meat than we used to - mainly because as we get older, we are
less able to digest it well. However, I still want to get enjoyment
out of my food, and my choice is to do that, as much as I can, for as
long as I can.
Of course, why wouldn't you, why wouldn't I? But if every time you
touch some milk or eggs or meat you took responsibility for what that
animal had to go though, often costing them their life (forever), just
for you(one) to have a few minutes of taste pleasure, simply because
of habit, you might re-evaluate your position?
Not at all. Personally, I don't have a problem with animals being farmed
as source of food, or as a source of products from that animal.
Although I didn't actually witness it much myself, my immediate
ancestral family did do such things, as they were from a country
background.
In fact, we did used to buy whole, unprepared, animals from the local
farmers market (not a whole cow kind of thing, just rabbits, chickens,
that kind of thing), and I watched as they were prepared and cooked at
home.
So, yeah, I'm aware of where my food comes from.
It's also why I try to
treat my food with some care and respect, whatever type it is. I would
hope that extends along the chain, and as far as is possible to tell, it should be so in this country.
[snip]
Hmm, yes, a strange one that. There seems to have been a distinctionNo, indeed they are the same of course, it's just that I think one is
between using natural materials (such as leather), and use of fur as
separate issues. Personally, I do see it that way.
more visible and so more likely to continue to normalise the
situation. Like when people first used BT headsets or earphones and
walked along the street talking to themselves. Now we don't bat an
eyelid. ;-)
I disagree, but that's just IMHO. I see a difference between someone arbitrarily killing a, usually endangered, wild animal to show off their fashion sense.
As opposed to the use of plentiful materials in a
practical sense.
Of course it would be better if we didn't.
Like, we had the choice of two different vegan advent calendars in our
small Sainsbury's the other day. ;-)
When I grew up, they already were vegan, we got a little picture to look
at, there wasn't any food in there, or any plastic either.
Of course I do find it ironic that the younger generation see the older
ones as the culprits, but in reality, the previous generations were the epitome of making use of all resources, reusing, and recycling.
I'm updating an old bookshelf, I believe it was made by my grandfather
(he died in 1976), so no idea how old it is. I wanted to keep it in
usable condition, as well as some of the sentimental value. As I
disassembled it, it was obvious that this was already made from recycled
wood from a previous piece of furniture. It was old when I was a kid, so
must be at least 70-80 years old in its current incarnation.
So how many of our vegans will want a new kitchen at some point, and all
that manufactured chip board with a plastic coating will end up at the
local tip?
To be replaced with a similar material.
It's not an ideal world, not by a long way.
On 22/12/2022 09:19, Chris wrote:
T i m <[email protected]> wrote:
On 21/12/2022 22:02, Chris wrote:
All I have suggested is that animals
have rights and they aren't ours to do with as we choose, *especially*
when what we are doing is pointless and could be easily avoided.
You would just accept it if aliens told you it was going to beLol. That's a stretch.
conducted on you, or if they just limited it to your children or elderly? >>
Only if you aren't willing to see the issue from the POV of the victim.
That's bordering on eugenics.
But at least it's not (the often pointless) torture and persecution of a >>> different species? ;-(
No-one is persecuting or torturing anything.
I'm afraid we are.
You can't believe everything
that the likes of PETA tell you.
I don't, but I can see the videos and the court rulings where the people
we elect to decide these things fine, shut down and imprison such
torturers.
What criteria would *you* use to determine just what suffering you can
cause to another living being? Intelligence ... or just as long as they
don't look exactly the same as us?
The law is a pretty good guide ;)
I was asking you Chris.
Animal testing is very strictly regulated in this country and most western >> countries.
But the regulations are often flouted / pushed and likely, even if
considered 'acceptable' within the rules would still not be considered acceptable if being conducted on your dog or any animal you decided or happened to care about (assuming you do etc).
<snip>
But if *we* suffer from an illness and may possibly even die from it,
what right or justification does that give us to cause members of other
species to suffer and die as well?
Because we can.
Ah, the old 'Might is right' fallacy.
In order
to improve human lives it's ok to use animals as humanely as possible.
And many say it isn't.
Eugenics is not ok.
But is more morally logical and acceptable
as you will understand when
an alien is experimenting on you or your family because they can.
Would you subject *your* dog to testing if you had a reasonable idea
that it would cause them to suffer and (eventually) die and where the
chances are the product would still need testing on humans in the end
anyway?
A pet dog would be useless.
Irrelevant Chris. Please answer the question.
The testing on animals and then on humans serve
different purposes.
Of course, where the tests conducted on animals are often pointless.
This isn't my opinion, this is scientifically accepted fact.
That's why we're do both.
And are doing less on animals as we evolve.
My cats cause more harm and distress to mice than any scientist.
Except your cats don't have moral agency like we do (or should do, if we
are the advanced / evolved species we think we are). They do what they
do because that's natural. What we do to other species is often far from natural or necessary.
(But you are also right in that man again has
fucked things up (eventually for ourselves) by introducing a non native species into a habitat).
Whilst we are wasting time persecuting other species we aren't putting
effort into discovering / inventing more effective and compassionate
alternatives.
You can guarantee that if someone came up with a non-animal way for
experimentation it would be picked up immediately the world over.
I'm pretty sure you can't guarantee that when people are getting funding
for no good reason.
The UK government has the three Rs initiative and funding is available.
People are putting effort into it and have been for decades.
Then maybe they should be putting more effort into it.
Dr Ray Greek is President of Americans and Europeans for Medical Advancement
In the meantime, we can stop making species extinct
T i m <[email protected]> wrote:
In the meantime, we can stop making species extinct
Not possible. Extinction is a natural consequence of darwinism. There are been five mass extinctions in the history of earth and we're probably at
the start of another.
But the regulations are often flouted / pushed and likely, even if
considered 'acceptable' within the rules would still not be considered
acceptable if being conducted on your dog or any animal you decided or
happened to care about (assuming you do etc).
Should we also ban driving because of few drunk drivers?
You don't judge
something based on the worst possible examples.
<snip>
But if *we* suffer from an illness and may possibly even die from it,
what right or justification does that give us to cause members of other >>>> species to suffer and die as well?
Because we can.
Ah, the old 'Might is right' fallacy.
How is it fallacious? We "own" the planet and can do as we please within
our own rules.
A pet dog would be useless.
Irrelevant Chris. Please answer the question.
It's not irrelevant. Scientifically using a pet dog in uncontrolled conditions would be pointless. In experiments which include animals you
need controlled conditions including the breed and upbringing of the
animal. Using pet dogs would ruin the experiment.
This isn't my opinion, this is scientifically accepted fact.
Speaking as a scientist, it isn't accepted fact. There are niche views
which may or may not be correct, but they aren't established as fact and
may never be.
Species go extinct for a whole host of reasons, many of them nothing to do with mankind.
What I see in T r o l l 's arguments is the usual "2-legs bad, 4-legs good" twaddle.
That there is a balance in nature and it's upset only by humans.
Truth is, nature is *never* in balance.
Lots of insects, but a somwehat larger
number of birds, means lots of new birds and fewer insect descendents for next
time; next time, lots of birds die because there are fewer insects, meaning that this year it's the insects' turn. Up and down like a roller-coaster - so much for "balance".
AISB, the naughty step is the only answer.
On 23/12/2022 18:51, Chris wrote:
<snip>
But the regulations are often flouted / pushed and likely, even if
considered 'acceptable' within the rules would still not be considered
acceptable if being conducted on your dog or any animal you decided or
happened to care about (assuming you do etc).
Should we also ban driving because of few drunk drivers?
We ban things completely if we think it's a good enough reason, like no smoking in public places or the legal ownership of handguns.
We also ban people from owning animals if they are caught abusing them
and ban entire sports if they are deemed barbaric (especially in 2022).
You don't judge
something based on the worst possible examples.
Of course we do, or we wouldn't have the crime of drink driving.
<snip>
But if *we* suffer from an illness and may possibly even die from it, >>>>> what right or justification does that give us to cause members of other >>>>> species to suffer and die as well?
Because we can.
Ah, the old 'Might is right' fallacy.
How is it fallacious? We "own" the planet and can do as we please within
our own rules.
Ah, now I get your entrenched viewpoint. ;-(
A pet dog would be useless.
Irrelevant Chris. Please answer the question.
It's not irrelevant. Scientifically using a pet dog in uncontrolled
conditions would be pointless. In experiments which include animals you
need controlled conditions including the breed and upbringing of the
animal. Using pet dogs would ruin the experiment.
You are either being disingenuous or really don't understand the point
I'm covering. I'm not discussing the validity of any tests but the hypothetical principal of someone conducting experiments on *your dog*,
eg, an animal you may (although that possibility is now in question)
happen care for their well-being. All dogs and individual beings.
<snip>
This isn't my opinion, this is scientifically accepted fact.
Speaking as a scientist, it isn't accepted fact. There are niche views
which may or may not be correct, but they aren't established as fact and
may never be.
And why alternative non-animal based research has been held back.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4594046/
<snip further cyclic / denial stuff>
It's not irrelevant. Scientifically using a pet dog in uncontrolled
conditions would be pointless. In experiments which include animals you
need controlled conditions including the breed and upbringing of the
animal. Using pet dogs would ruin the experiment.
You are either being disingenuous or really don't understand the point
I'm covering. I'm not discussing the validity of any tests but the
hypothetical principal of someone conducting experiments on *your dog*,
eg, an animal you may (although that possibility is now in question)
happen care for their well-being. All dogs and individual beings.
Your point is you're trying to be emotive to get a reaction.
I'm not
falling for it.
<snip>
This isn't my opinion, this is scientifically accepted fact.
Speaking as a scientist, it isn't accepted fact. There are niche views
which may or may not be correct, but they aren't established as fact and >>> may never be.
And why alternative non-animal based research has been held back.
It isn't being held back.
It is simply a far, far bigger problem to solve
than a handwavy vegan on t'internet can.
Or maybe you do have a solution. What is it?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4594046/
As I said before, no-one is against removing animals from research if a viable alternative can be found.
<snip further cyclic / denial stuff>
Ah, I see you're not actually interested in a discussion.
What exactly am I
denying?
I'm refuting your position which is based on very simplistic and
reductionist views of what science is.
But if *we* suffer from an illness and may possibly even die from it,
what right or justification does that give us to cause members of other >>>> species to suffer and die as well?
Because we can.
Ah, the old 'Might is right' fallacy.
How is it fallacious? We "own" the planet and can do as we please within
our own rules. Even if we're being self destructive, which we are.
On 23 Dec 2022 at 18:51:40 GMT, Chris wrote:
But if *we* suffer from an illness and may possibly even die from it, >>>>> what right or justification does that give us to cause members of other >>>>> species to suffer and die as well?
Because we can.
Ah, the old 'Might is right' fallacy.
How is it fallacious? We "own" the planet and can do as we please within
our own rules. Even if we're being self destructive, which we are.
Humans don't 'own' the earth - what a strange thing to think.
I'd agree that a fair few humans seem hell bent on killing as much of the flora and fauna as they can in their short lives.
On 24/12/2022 10:23, Chris wrote:
Your point is you're trying to be emotive to get a reaction.
I'm not trying to be anything, I am a human and I wondered if you were?
I'm not
falling for it.
Of course you aren't because if you were to act like a compassionate
human and not just some droid,
you would have to admit my point was very
relevant and valid. ;-)
*Every* animal you *choose* to exploit and cause to suffer and die, be
it for experimentation, food or entertainment has the right to be free
of such
not only because it's morally right but physically and
emotionally too. It's also destructive to the environment (at least you admitted we were) and that destruction can't go on forever without
costing us heavily (if it isn't too late already).
You have admitted your model of the world is human ego-centric
also using your 'might is right' POV. But if we actually use that ITRW
and wipe out all the insects, we are also doomed, so that POV is simply
not sustainable and therefore can't be right.
And why alternative non-animal based research has been held back.
It isn't being held back.
Of course it is. *Any* money or effort being spent on archaic processes
and solutions is money and effort not spent in doing something better.
Or maybe you do have a solution. What is it?
For a start, we all move to a more plant based diet (that's a huge chunk
of the bad stuff removed), and whilst we are there, invest more time and effort on better scientific techniques that don't cause animals to
suffer and die needlessly (as the science is now suggesting is the case).
As I said before, no-one is against removing animals from research if a
viable alternative can be found.
Any alternative is more viable than a solution that is mostly ineffective.
<snip further cyclic / denial stuff>
Ah, I see you're not actually interested in a discussion.
I am, but that's not what you were doing (although I am seeing slightly
more hope now).
What exactly am I
denying?
The point that all animals deserve the right to live a life free of exploitation, suffering and unnecessary death at our hands.
Something
you refuse to face with my 'your dog / child / wife / mum / aliens
testing' scenario.
At the risk of repeating myself I'd be more than happy to not have any
animal experimentation. However, that's not an option at the moment. There are many viable and complex experiments that cannot be done without
animals.
What you're asking for is to stop pretty much all biological/medical research. That's not an option.
T i m <[email protected]> wrote:
On 24/12/2022 10:23, Chris wrote:
Your point is you're trying to be emotive to get a reaction.
I'm not trying to be anything, I am a human and I wondered if you were?
There's no need to be offensive.
Just because you don't like my point of
view.
I'm not
falling for it.
Of course you aren't because if you were to act like a compassionate
human and not just some droid,
Of course you don't see the irony in that.
You snipped my comment last time
as well.
you would have to admit my point was very
relevant and valid. ;-)
I don't have to admit anything.
*Every* animal you *choose* to exploit and cause to suffer and die, be
it for experimentation, food or entertainment has the right to be free
of such
Only according to your morals.
Many non-human animals experiment with and
torture other animals. Which apparently is fine.
As a society we know what is acceptable.
Eating meat and licensed animal
experimentation are included and will be for a long time to come.
not only because it's morally right but physically and
emotionally too. It's also destructive to the environment (at least you
admitted we were) and that destruction can't go on forever without
costing us heavily (if it isn't too late already).
You have admitted your model of the world is human ego-centric
Correct. All evidence of human behaviour supports that view. Otherwise we wouldn't have ecological or climate crises.
also using your 'might is right' POV. But if we actually use that ITRW
and wipe out all the insects, we are also doomed, so that POV is simply
not sustainable and therefore can't be right.
Of course it can be right. Everywhere you look it's clear we are going to
be the authors of our own destruction. It's quite obvious and I'm not sure how you can deny it.
And why alternative non-animal based research has been held back.
It isn't being held back.
Of course it is. *Any* money or effort being spent on archaic processes
and solutions is money and effort not spent in doing something better.
Only someone who doesn't realise how complex animal studies are can call
them archaic.
Or maybe you do have a solution. What is it?
For a start, we all move to a more plant based diet (that's a huge chunk
of the bad stuff removed), and whilst we are there, invest more time and
effort on better scientific techniques that don't cause animals to
suffer and die needlessly (as the science is now suggesting is the case).
Nope. I don't see any solutions there.
It's very glib to say "better
scientific solutions" without actually stating how.
It's like claiming we
need green energy solutions 20 years ago.
As I said before, no-one is against removing animals from research if a
viable alternative can be found.
Any alternative is more viable than a solution that is mostly ineffective.
You keep claiming that, but that's very far from the truth. It's
practically a lie. There is currently no viable alternative.
<snip further cyclic / denial stuff>
Ah, I see you're not actually interested in a discussion.
I am, but that's not what you were doing (although I am seeing slightly
more hope now).
What exactly am I
denying?
The point that all animals deserve the right to live a life free of
exploitation, suffering and unnecessary death at our hands.
In an ideal world, yes. Unfortunately we're in the real world.
Something
you refuse to face with my 'your dog / child / wife / mum / aliens
testing' scenario.
It's an unrealistic scenario.
At the risk of repeating myself I'd be more than happy to not have any
animal experimentation. However, that's not an option at the moment. There are many viable and complex experiments that cannot be done without
animals.
What you're asking for is to stop pretty much all biological/medical research.
That's not an option.
On 26/12/2022 11:11, Chris wrote:
At the risk of repeating myself I'd be more than happy to not have any
animal experimentation. However, that's not an option at the moment. There >> are many viable and complex experiments that cannot be done without
animals.
What you're asking for is to stop pretty much all biological/medical
research. That's not an option.
Winding back somewhat to the linked paper describing how animal testing
was inefficient/faulty/cruel/whatever. I can't find the link any more :-(
As a layman I can't tell if this paper was peer reviewed, widely
accepted, or something in some fringe journal that'll publish anything.
It seemed to be referenced by other papers, but again, that's not particularly strong proof of its quality.
Is anyone able to comment?
On 26/12/2022 11:11, Chris wrote:
At the risk of repeating myself I'd be more than happy to not have any
animal experimentation. However, that's not an option at the moment.
There
are many viable and complex experiments that cannot be done without
animals.
What you're asking for is to stop pretty much all biological/medical
research. That's not an option.
Winding back somewhat to the linked paper describing how animal testing
was inefficient/faulty/cruel/whatever. I can't find the link any more :-(
As a layman I can't tell if this paper was peer reviewed, widely
accepted, or something in some fringe journal that'll publish anything.
It seemed to be referenced by other papers, but again, that's not particularly strong proof of its quality.
Is anyone able to comment?
It's not my area, but looks like a decent, peer reviewed journal so no concerns there. The author, however, is a medic not a researcher and an animal rights activist so perhaps not the most well informed nor balanced presentation of the situation.
The article has garnered a lot of attention in the online media which is probably how T i m has seen it.
On 26/12/2022 11:11, Chris wrote:
T i m <[email protected]> wrote:
On 24/12/2022 10:23, Chris wrote:
Your point is you're trying to be emotive to get a reaction.
I'm not trying to be anything, I am a human and I wondered if you were?
There's no need to be offensive.
That wasn't my intention. It was an observation around your projection
of not caring for animals
and that emotion shouldn't play a big part in
that.
If you saw someone beating a dog I hope that *would* 'get a reaction'.
Just because you don't like my point of
view.
Nothing to do with what I 'like' or not, it's not about you or I it's
all / only about the victims.
I'm not
falling for it.
Of course you aren't because if you were to act like a compassionate
human and not just some droid,
Of course you don't see the irony in that.
Please explain then?
You snipped my comment last time
as well.
Possibly because I didn't see how it related?
you would have to admit my point was very
relevant and valid. ;-)
I don't have to admit anything.
Again (with your literal droid-like interpretation here), of course you wouldn't. ;-)
*Every* animal you *choose* to exploit and cause to suffer and die, be
it for experimentation, food or entertainment has the right to be free
of such
Only according to your morals.
Not only mine of course, anyone with any empathy and compassion.
Many non-human animals experiment with and
torture other animals. Which apparently is fine.
Of course it is because 1) 'It's nature' and 2), compared with us, few
other species have the same moral agency we do. If you believe we are superior then that superiority must come with some responsibility.
Others are trying to implement
change, whilst we can. Given 25% of man made CO2 comes from food
production
and much of that from livestock farming, a quick and easy way
to reduce our overall emissions is to move to a plant based diet.
And why alternative non-animal based research has been held back.
It isn't being held back.
Of course it is. *Any* money or effort being spent on archaic processes
and solutions is money and effort not spent in doing something better.
Only someone who doesn't realise how complex animal studies are can call
them archaic.
So that's loads of forward thinking scientists then?
You keep claiming that, but that's very far from the truth. It'sAs I said before, no-one is against removing animals from research if a >>>> viable alternative can be found.
Any alternative is more viable than a solution that is mostly ineffective. >>
practically a lie. There is currently no viable alternative.
But there is, there are loads of alternatives that are in play right
now, including simply not testing on animals at all (like cosmetics).
See above. We have the opportunity to spare the suffering and death to
up to 80 BILLION animals every year RIGHT NOW and with all the benefits
that will provide.
At the risk of repeating myself I'd be more than happy to not have any
animal experimentation. However, that's not an option at the moment. There >> are many viable and complex experiments that cannot be done without
animals.
Cannot or simply that the rules aren't allowing or the drive not
sufficient behind alternatives. What happened for them to just stop
testing cosmetics on animals, or many other animal tests that are no
longer used / permitted? Are you saying of those that remain, none could
be removed and right now?
What you're asking for is to stop pretty much all biological/medical
research.
Of course I'm not.
It might be because of the archaic way we currently
consider / legislate it, but that's not the same thing.
That's not an option.
When when no animal testing lab is allowed to function because enough
people stop them functioning, will we simply do nothing different or
look harder for alternatives?
That wasn't my intention. It was an observation around your projection
of not caring for animals
Just because I approve of the appropriate use of animals in science
doesn't
mean I don't care about animals.
At least in my mind and in the majority of
the population.
I'm probably a monster to you, however.
and that emotion shouldn't play a big part in
that.
It's called being objective.
If you saw someone beating a dog I hope that *would* 'get a reaction'.
Obviously.
Just because you don't like my point of
view.
Nothing to do with what I 'like' or not, it's not about you or I it's
all / only about the victims.
Again you're being emotive.
You claim I'm a droid, yet you're repeating points you aren't able to
verify nor backup and state them as the truth. That's unthinking "droid" behaviour.
You interpret objectivity as uncaring. This is a common misunderstanding.
*Every* animal you *choose* to exploit and cause to suffer and die, be >>>> it for experimentation, food or entertainment has the right to be free >>>> of such
Only according to your morals.
Not only mine of course, anyone with any empathy and compassion.
Do you not wish have the best, safest health and medical treatments for you and family?
As was pointed out to you before, every medical treatment
you've benefited from has caused harm to animals.
Will you stop taking pain
killers
or cold/flu remedies?
Or refuse surgery?
Many non-human animals experiment with and
torture other animals. Which apparently is fine.
Of course it is because 1) 'It's nature' and 2), compared with us, few
other species have the same moral agency we do. If you believe we are
superior then that superiority must come with some responsibility.
I challenged you before, but you snipped the whole thing. Are we not
animals too?
Is what we do not natural?
Others are trying to implement
change, whilst we can. Given 25% of man made CO2 comes from food
production
You're going to have to cite that. 25% is nowhere near what I've seen.
and much of that from livestock farming, a quick and easy way
to reduce our overall emissions is to move to a plant based diet.
Nope.
The biggest sources are energy and transport.
That's where we need to
make the biggest changes.
Of course, changing our diet will help but only
if people stick to seasonal diets.
Flying in green beans from Kenya or
blueberries from Peru makes things worse, not better.
The result for cosmetics is no new ingredients can be created for cosmetic use. Only new formulations. Which is ok as that's what's mostly done
anyway.
If we did the same with medical treatments, that would kill innovation.
What are the "loads of alternatives"? That's uselessly vague.
See above. We have the opportunity to spare the suffering and death to
up to 80 BILLION animals every year RIGHT NOW and with all the benefits
that will provide.
Stop making things up. The article you cited claims 115 million a year. Exaggeration doesn't help y our case. The UK figure is a more or less
stable 3m.
Cannot or simply that the rules aren't allowing or the drive not
sufficient behind alternatives. What happened for them to just stop
testing cosmetics on animals, or many other animal tests that are no
longer used / permitted? Are you saying of those that remain, none could
be removed and right now?
You're confusing testing with research. Regulatory testing of products
forms a tiny fraction of the total. The vast majority of animal studies are done in early stage research, way before there's any drugs or products to test.
You simply can't stop someone from working on understanding novel genetic diseases or on how cognition works.
What you're asking for is to stop pretty much all biological/medical
research.
Of course I'm not.
Effectively you are. By ending the use of animals with no alternative, that is the result.
It might be because of the archaic way we currently
consider / legislate it, but that's not the same thing.
It's got nothing to do with legislation. If there are genuinely viable alternatives they'd be in use already.
That's not an option.
When when no animal testing lab is allowed to function because enough
people stop them functioning, will we simply do nothing different or
look harder for alternatives?
They tried to do this with the Huntingdon labs. They failed because the government understands the needs of fundamental research. Something that activists/advocates don't.
Chris Ridd <[email protected]> wrote:
On 26/12/2022 11:11, Chris wrote:
At the risk of repeating myself I'd be more than happy to not have any
animal experimentation. However, that's not an option at the moment. There >>> are many viable and complex experiments that cannot be done without
animals.
What you're asking for is to stop pretty much all biological/medical
research. That's not an option.
Winding back somewhat to the linked paper describing how animal testing
was inefficient/faulty/cruel/whatever. I can't find the link any more :-(
As a layman I can't tell if this paper was peer reviewed, widely
accepted, or something in some fringe journal that'll publish anything.
It seemed to be referenced by other papers, but again, that's not
particularly strong proof of its quality.
Is anyone able to comment?
It's not my area, but looks like a decent, peer reviewed journal so no concerns there. The author, however, is a medic not a researcher and an animal rights activist so perhaps not the most well informed nor balanced presentation of the situation.
RJH <[email protected]> wrote:
On 23 Dec 2022 at 18:51:40 GMT, Chris wrote:
But if *we* suffer from an illness and may possibly even die from it, >>>>>> what right or justification does that give us to cause members of other >>>>>> species to suffer and die as well?
Because we can.
Ah, the old 'Might is right' fallacy.
How is it fallacious? We "own" the planet and can do as we please within >>> our own rules. Even if we're being self destructive, which we are.
Humans don't 'own' the earth - what a strange thing to think.
That's why I used inverted commas. Of course we don't own the planet, but
we act like we do to the detriment of all others.
Only according to your morals. Many non-human animals experiment with and torture other animals. Which apparently is fine.
On 24 Dec 2022 at 23:15:17 GMT, "Chris" <[email protected]> wrote:
RJH <[email protected]> wrote:
On 23 Dec 2022 at 18:51:40 GMT, Chris wrote:
But if *we* suffer from an illness and may possibly even die from it, >>>>>>> what right or justification does that give us to cause members of other >>>>>>> species to suffer and die as well?
Because we can.
Ah, the old 'Might is right' fallacy.
How is it fallacious? We "own" the planet and can do as we please within >>>> our own rules. Even if we're being self destructive, which we are.
Humans don't 'own' the earth - what a strange thing to think.
That's why I used inverted commas. Of course we don't own the planet, but
we act like we do to the detriment of all others.
If we don't own it then neither does anything else.
And all the other species
are doing their bit too.
Everything acts selfishly but nonetheless
it all
works together.
As James Lovelock would tell you.
On 26 Dec 2022 at 11:11:18 GMT, "Chris" <[email protected]> wrote:
Only according to your morals. Many non-human animals experiment with and
torture other animals. Which apparently is fine.
Quite a few species paralyse their prey and then eat them alive.
On 23 Dec 2022 at 18:51:40 GMT, Chris wrote:
But if *we* suffer from an illness and may possibly even die from it, >>>>> what right or justification does that give us to cause members of other >>>>> species to suffer and die as well?
Because we can.
Ah, the old 'Might is right' fallacy.
How is it fallacious? We "own" the planet and can do as we please within
our own rules. Even if we're being self destructive, which we are.
Humans don't 'own' the earth - what a strange thing to think.
I'd agree that a fair few humans seem hell bent on killing as much of the flora and fauna as they can in their short lives.
On 27/12/2022 16:23, TimS wrote:
On 26 Dec 2022 at 11:11:18 GMT, "Chris" <[email protected]> wrote:Aww look, the stalker is still trying to join in. ;-)
Only according to your morals. Many non-human animals experiment with and >>> torture other animals. Which apparently is fine.
Quite a few species paralyse their prey and then eat them alive.
Yup, nature can be harsh but some of us who have evolved past that of a Neanderthal don't use the morals of a wild animal to determine what we consider right or wrong.
Well, unless you also enjoy incest, rape, child abduction ...
No animal tortures any other for the fun of it, for the sensory
pleasure, other than us.
We do kill for the sensory pleasure of taste and apparently that one is
ok, even when there are loads of alternatives foods and tastes available
to don't require *any* of the above?
On 27/12/2022 09:33, Chris wrote:
<snip>
That wasn't my intention. It was an observation around your projection
of not caring for animals
Just because I approve of the appropriate use of animals in science
And you think all use is 'appropriate'?
doesn't
mean I don't care about animals.
It does, especially if the usage isn't appropriate (and much of it isn't)
At least in my mind and in the majority of
the population.
Yup, like all those who 'believed' that because their doctor smoked it
must be ok.
I'm probably a monster to you, however.
You certainly appear to be more of one than the average meat eating one
yes. ;-(
and that emotion shouldn't play a big part in
that.
It's called being objective.
Or having cognitive bias based on historically acceptable practices.
If you saw someone beating a dog I hope that *would* 'get a reaction'.
Obviously.
It's not 'obvious' to me from here Chris.
Just because you don't like my point of
view.
Nothing to do with what I 'like' or not, it's not about you or I it's
all / only about the victims.
Again you're being emotive.
I'm being honest. Irrespective of the morality, do you think causing an animal to suffer for *any* reason doesn't make them a victim?
You claim I'm a droid, yet you're repeating points you aren't able to
verify nor backup and state them as the truth. That's unthinking "droid"
behaviour.
It's only that to you because you don't understand why I might ask the question, That's unthinking droid behavour. ;-)
'What's wrong with using animals for experimentation' is a question only
a droid would ask.
Many non-human animals experiment with and
torture other animals. Which apparently is fine.
Of course it is because 1) 'It's nature' and 2), compared with us, few
other species have the same moral agency we do. If you believe we are
superior then that superiority must come with some responsibility.
I challenged you before, but you snipped the whole thing. Are we not
animals too?
Humans are animals yes. Humans have moral agency, something the other
animals generally don't.
Is what we do not natural?
You are joking right? *Nothing* we do with / to animals is anything like *natural* and hence your strong confirmation bias.
Effectively you are. By ending the use of animals with no alternative, that >> is the result.
But there are already many alternatives and NOT pushing them harder is slowing that progressing faster.
T i m <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27/12/2022 16:23, TimS wrote:
On 26 Dec 2022 at 11:11:18 GMT, "Chris" <[email protected]> wrote:Aww look, the stalker is still trying to join in. ;-)
Only according to your morals. Many non-human animals experiment with and >>>> torture other animals. Which apparently is fine.
Quite a few species paralyse their prey and then eat them alive.
You're starting to unravel T i m.
Yup, nature can be harsh but some of us who have evolved past that of a
Neanderthal don't use the morals of a wild animal to determine what we
consider right or wrong.
You're the one claiming some human behaviour is not "natural", implying
that nature is somehow pure and devoid of unpleasantness.
Yes we have
evolved to the extent of extremely complex society, language, intelligence etc, but we still are driven by our biology.
Good/bad or right/wrong are completely human constructs which society can change whenever it wants in any direction.
You only need to look at the US
to see how diametrically different views can co-exist within the same country.
There is no single truth of right or wrong.
Neither you nor I can change that.
It changes rapidly too. Just look at how the green agenda has flown out the window this year. Which is totally backward as now is exactly the time to develop better green initiatives, but no cheap fossil fuels is what people want.
Well, unless you also enjoy incest, rape, child abduction ...
No animal tortures any other for the fun of it, for the sensory
pleasure, other than us.
Clearly you've not watched many wildlife programmes nor seen a cat play
with a mouse.
Torture and cruelty are common in nature particularly in
predatory animals.
We do kill for the sensory pleasure of taste and apparently that one is
ok, even when there are loads of alternatives foods and tastes available
to don't require *any* of the above?
A balanced diet with meat or animal products contains all essential
nutrients a person needs.
A vegan one doesn't to the extent that pregnant
women on vegan diets are advised to take vitamin supplements. https://www.nhs.uk/pregnancy/keeping-well/vegetarian-or-vegan-and-pregnant/
It's arguable that a vegan diet is not natural to humans.
T i m <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27/12/2022 09:33, Chris wrote:
<snip>
That wasn't my intention. It was an observation around your projection >>>> of not caring for animals
Just because I approve of the appropriate use of animals in science
And you think all use is 'appropriate'?
On the whole, yes.
Could regulations be tightened? Certainly.
Could
alternatives be investigated further? Probably.
doesn't
mean I don't care about animals.
It does, especially if the usage isn't appropriate (and much of it isn't)
Again you're just repeating the same bollocks. There are examples where things could be better, which isn't the same as saying the whole system is broken.
At least in my mind and in the majority of
the population.
Yup, like all those who 'believed' that because their doctor smoked it
must be ok.
I'm probably a monster to you, however.
You certainly appear to be more of one than the average meat eating one
yes. ;-(
Disappointing but unsurprising.
and that emotion shouldn't play a big part in
that.
It's called being objective.
Or having cognitive bias based on historically acceptable practices.
If you saw someone beating a dog I hope that *would* 'get a reaction'.
Obviously.
It's not 'obvious' to me from here Chris.
Wow. You really do let your opinions colour your judgement.
It must really mess your head that I love animals, care for my pets like
they are part of the family, yet do understand the needs of animal testing
to help advance medical progress. Plus I eat meat.
Just because you don't like my point of
view.
Nothing to do with what I 'like' or not, it's not about you or I it's
all / only about the victims.
Again you're being emotive.
I'm being honest. Irrespective of the morality, do you think causing an
animal to suffer for *any* reason doesn't make them a victim?
Why are you focusing on language? Why are labels important to you?
You claim I'm a droid, yet you're repeating points you aren't able to
verify nor backup and state them as the truth. That's unthinking "droid" >>> behaviour.
It's only that to you because you don't understand why I might ask the
question, That's unthinking droid behavour. ;-)
'What's wrong with using animals for experimentation' is a question only
a droid would ask.
False. It's the core of bioethics and is regularly asked. If you looked at the rest of the journal issue you cited you'd see both sides of the
argument being discussed.
The line of acceptability is constantly being tested as new advances are made.
The fact you think this is droid behaviour highlights how simplistic your position is.
Lack nuance means lack of realism.
Is what we do not natural?
You are joking right? *Nothing* we do with / to animals is anything like
*natural* and hence your strong confirmation bias.
Many things we deem illegal happen in "nature".
In basic terms, we do
nothing that isn't being done by other animals.
We at least put limits on.
Effectively you are. By ending the use of animals with no alternative, that >>> is the result.
But there are already many alternatives and NOT pushing them harder is
slowing that progressing faster.
You keep saying there are many alternatives but you've yet to show any
except an outright ban. It seems clear that there actually aren't (m)any alternatives.
On 28/12/2022 00:20, Chris wrote:
T i m <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27/12/2022 09:33, Chris wrote:
The only way you could be completely logical is by either being a vegan
or a psychopath (as such a person would be labelled by a majority of the population)?
False. It's the core of bioethics and is regularly asked. If you looked at >> the rest of the journal issue you cited you'd see both sides of the
argument being discussed.
Of course ... and after the discussion the only bit that *actually*
matters is the conclusions.
The line of acceptability is constantly being tested as new advances are
made.
And that's good, it's just that I'm pretty sure there is no question
about the validity of most and how much faster we could be seeking out alternatives, if the resources are moved to that.
The fact you think this is droid behaviour highlights how simplistic your
position is.
It's only presented simplistically to you and here because there is no
point dealing with the detail if we can't agree the general process / direction.
All I'm looking for from you is the admittance that much testing on
animals is (as it has historically already proven to be) ineffective / pointless and therefore should be stopped.
That any testing on animals IS immoral
T i m <[email protected]> wrote:
On 28/12/2022 00:20, Chris wrote:
T i m <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27/12/2022 09:33, Chris wrote:
The only way you could be completely logical is by either being a vegan
or a psychopath (as such a person would be labelled by a majority of the
population)?
Hahahah! What a joke.
Vilifying moderate people makes you an extremist.
False. It's the core of bioethics and is regularly asked. If you looked at >>> the rest of the journal issue you cited you'd see both sides of the
argument being discussed.
Of course ... and after the discussion the only bit that *actually*
matters is the conclusions.
Which are that animal testing is ethical and necessary.
The line of acceptability is constantly being tested as new advances are >>> made.
And that's good, it's just that I'm pretty sure there is no question
about the validity of most and how much faster we could be seeking out
alternatives, if the resources are moved to that.
The fact you think this is droid behaviour highlights how simplistic your >>> position is.
It's only presented simplistically to you and here because there is no
point dealing with the detail if we can't agree the general process /
direction.
More likely that you don't understand the details and only follow what's spoon-fed to you by advocacy groups.
All I'm looking for from you is the admittance that much testing on
animals is (as it has historically already proven to be) ineffective /
pointless and therefore should be stopped.
Why should I admit that when the opposite is true?
You've shown very little
evidence to support your point and to try to change mine.
You're simply
arguing on principle which is fine, but you aren't going to change anyone's mind.
That any testing on animals IS immoral
Nope. Bioethicists agree with me.
There is a good possibility you and your fellow conspirators might be considered in the same way as Irmgard Furchner has currently been:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/20/nazi-camp-secretary-irmgard-furchner-stutthof-germany
On 27/12/2022 23:47, Chris wrote:
T i m <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27/12/2022 16:23, TimS wrote:
On 26 Dec 2022 at 11:11:18 GMT, "Chris" <[email protected]> wrote:Aww look, the stalker is still trying to join in. ;-)
Only according to your morals. Many non-human animals experiment with and >>>>> torture other animals. Which apparently is fine.
Quite a few species paralyse their prey and then eat them alive.
You're starting to unravel T i m.
Never been more ravelled mate. Just playing with the stalker!
Yup, nature can be harsh but some of us who have evolved past that of a
Neanderthal don't use the morals of a wild animal to determine what we
consider right or wrong.
You're the one claiming some human behaviour is not "natural", implying
that nature is somehow pure and devoid of unpleasantness.
Not claimed anything of the like. Would you please stop being so
disingenuous and trying to put words in my mouth.
Yes we have
evolved to the extent of extremely complex society, language, intelligence >> etc, but we still are driven by our biology.
Give a child and apple and a chicken and they will eat the apple and
befriend the chicken.
There is no single truth of right or wrong.
Of course there are. The one universal human trait is the option of
using empathy re the things we do. *Billions* of people do this around
the world every day. Good deeds, treating others fairly, kindly and compassionately.
Clearly you've not watched many wildlife programmes nor seen a cat play
with a mouse.
Oh dear. You really do either need to be honest or do some more research
on all this before you try to convince me with your strawmen.
So you think a cat 'playing with a mouse', or an orca playing with a
seal is them simply having fun, rather than honing their hunting skills
or teaching their young?
For a cat to be able to be consciously cruel to a mouse they would have
to make moral decisions on that whole subject but they can't and don't,
they only use instinct.
We on the other hand (and many other higher level creatures of course)
can make judgements based on things other than instinct, like morals and hence why we have 'moral agency' that those other animals don't.
Torture and cruelty are common in nature particularly in
predatory animals.
Nope. The only animal *intentionally* tortures or is cruel to another
animal is us, especially you if you actually 'experiment on animals'.
We do kill for the sensory pleasure of taste and apparently that one is
ok, even when there are loads of alternatives foods and tastes available >>> to don't require *any* of the above?
A balanced diet with meat or animal products contains all essential
nutrients a person needs.
But a balanced diet doesn't need to contain meat or any particular
foodstuff, as long as it is nutritionally balanced.
And the biggest bodies of experts in nutrition, the American and British Dietetics societies (representing thousand of people) state that 'A
balanced vegan diet is sufficient from people of all ages'.
How well equipped are you to catch, dispatch, dissect and consume animal flesh Chris? How are your claws, your meat slicing incisors, you skin
ripping canines, your bone crushing molars ... and lets not forget your digestion system that is well equipped to digest raw meat, skin and fur
and deal with all the pathogens it often carries?
How did we manage to work out how to use fire to overcome all those limitations? Answer, by eating plants.
I don't have 'a god' so just use facts, science and common sense.
Yes we have
evolved to the extent of extremely complex society, language, intelligence >>> etc, but we still are driven by our biology.
Give a child and apple and a chicken and they will eat the apple and
befriend the chicken.
Depends on their background. A city child would be scared by the chicken.
In some cultures the child would indeed try to catch the chicken as food.
You're very idealised in your view and not representative of non-western cultures.
There is no single truth of right or wrong.
Of course there are. The one universal human trait is the option of
using empathy re the things we do. *Billions* of people do this around
the world every day. Good deeds, treating others fairly, kindly and
compassionately.
War and conflict is the basic human trait that's existed for centuries.
Only recently has there been compassion for each other as you've stated yourself.
As a species we've gone out of way to subjugate other humans and
other species as much as possible.
Clearly you've not watched many wildlife programmes nor seen a cat play
with a mouse.
Oh dear. You really do either need to be honest or do some more research
on all this before you try to convince me with your strawmen.
So you think a cat 'playing with a mouse', or an orca playing with a
seal is them simply having fun, rather than honing their hunting skills
or teaching their young?
An adult cat doesn't need to practice.
They are clearly doing it for fun as
they purr while doing it.
A purring cat would be a very bad hunter.
Orca have often been seen to spend hours torturing whale calves and then barely touch them once dead. They clearly aren't doing it for food.
For a cat to be able to be consciously cruel to a mouse they would have
to make moral decisions on that whole subject but they can't and don't,
they only use instinct.
Right. Our instinct is to benefit humanity through better health.
If that's
at the loss of some animals, then so be it.
But a balanced diet doesn't need to contain meat or any particular
foodstuff, as long as it is nutritionally balanced.
That's a tautology.
And the biggest bodies of experts in nutrition, the American and British
Dietetics societies (representing thousand of people) state that 'A
balanced vegan diet is sufficient from people of all ages'.
You missed the key bit: " if the nutritional intake is well-planned." A healthy vegan diet takes careful planning.
A vegetarian or meat-eating one
doesn't.
How well equipped are you to catch, dispatch, dissect and consume animal
flesh Chris? How are your claws, your meat slicing incisors, you skin
ripping canines, your bone crushing molars ... and lets not forget your
digestion system that is well equipped to digest raw meat, skin and fur
and deal with all the pathogens it often carries?
Given humans in remote parts of the world do exactly that,
I'm pretty sure
I'm well adapted to the diet our ancestors ate for millennia.
It's also obvious a vegan out in the wilderness will be unable to sustain themselves, whereas an omnivore would manage much better.
A human vegan doesn't have the teeth nor digestive system to extract
maximum calories from vegetation like an obligate herbivore can (e.g. sheep or a cow).
How did we manage to work out how to use fire to overcome all those
limitations? Answer, by eating plants.
What? like popeye? lol
Remember we ate meat a long time before we became farmers.
I'm not even
sure the primary purpose for fire was to cook.
I don't have 'a god' so just use facts, science and common sense.
You've demonstrated none of the above.
I originally joined this group (about 25 years ago) to discuss things to
do with Macs, or at least Apple products. Not to be preached to over my dietary choices, (or indeed the UI nuances of other operating systems).
On 23/12/2022 17:35, T i m wrote:
I considered a lengthy and detailed response, but then changed my mind,
and decided to enjoy Christmas without being sent on a guilt trip about
my life choices.
I know that if we 'Google' enough, we can always find the answer we're looking for.
However, it's also my thought that this discussion does not belong here.
I don't want to continue with it as as subject in this group, if I did,
I would search out com.vegan.evangelise (or whatever is nearest to
that).
I have my thoughts on it, and to be honest, that's really where I
want it to remain, in my thoughts.
I originally joined this group (about 25 years ago) to discuss things to
do with Macs, or at least Apple products.
Not to be preached to over my
dietary choices,
(or indeed the UI nuances of other operating systems).
I'm interested in Apple stuff here, hence the choice of group (I have
other interests of course, and choose groups that suit those too).
So, if you want to discuss, or ask questions *here* about Apple
products, or services, I'm happy to help.
All the best.
If we don't own it then neither does anything else. And all the other species are doing their bit too. Everything acts selfishly but nonetheless it all works together. As James Lovelock would tell you.
How is it fallacious? We "own" the planet and can do as we please within >>> our own rules. Even if we're being self destructive, which we are.
Humans don't 'own' the earth - what a strange thing to think.
You would be surprised on how many actually believe that Rob. I mean
Chris is right in that we have effectively *stolen* the earth off
everything else that has often been happily living here for millions of years, not fucking it up ... before we came along and fucked it up for everyone. ;-(
https://ibb.co/RHWFbVN
I'd agree that a fair few humans seem hell bent on killing as much of the
flora and fauna as they can in their short lives.
Don't they just ... and my issue is they do so at a huge cost to all of
us. ;-(
Crikey, you really don't give up, and have so much wrong about all I said.
You're right about one thing, I should have just shut the fuck up in the first place.
It's a shame that this group has changed so much for the worse (yeah, I
know I should also learn when to not bite, can't always help it).
It did used to be moderated, but I guess no one wants that baton any more.
Perhaps it's easier just to call it a day.
On 29/12/2022 14:18, Andy Hewitt wrote:
Crikey, you really don't give up, and have so much wrong about all I
said.
Oh, I see, you are the one out of us who determines when a conversation
has finished?
You can make statements and don't expect me to respond to them?
You're right about one thing, I should have just shut the fuck up in
the first place.
Well, if you aren't willing to be open minded then it's probably not
best not to try to enter a conversation that's for sure, especially one
with facets as important as the future of humanity!
It's a shame that this group has changed so much for the worse (yeah,
I know I should also learn when to not bite, can't always help it).
;-)
It did used to be moderated, but I guess no one wants that baton any
more.
I believe that it would be better if it were, depending on how busy it
is in general and as long the signal overcomes the noise.
'Easier?', possibly, if as you say you can't resisting biting re off
Perhaps it's easier just to call it a day.
topic subjects or even subjects that might be considered as on-topic by
less rigid participants (like technical technical / functional
comparisons between Apple OS's and others you mentioned) but if you can
and filter out those who never post around Apple stuff, and ignore OT
stuff then I guess it's down to what's left?
It's my observation that many newsgroups are drifting towards a more
'open' discussion range because if they don't, they could die out
completely because of lack of activity (and many ISP's have already
stopped hosting newsgroups, like VM) and because of users moving to
other types of social media that seem to better suit todays sorts of
social interaction, especially supporting other forms of media like
pictures, polls and files etc (and I believe you can with binary NG's
but not quite as flexibly).
FWIW I have never used Twitter, TikTok, Snapchat or Insta, I used FB now
and again for groups that only have their presence on that platform but
now use Reddit quite a bit because you can find reasonably active fairly specialist groups and the moderation seems reasonable (I don't know if
all Reddit groups are moderated but the ones I happen to use seem to be).
So I think it's a bit like my involvement with 'computers'. Years ago I
was regularly building, installing, upgrading and maintaining PCs of all shapes and sizes (inc doing a fair bit on Apple gear via Dads SE > CRT
iMac and daughters Mac Mini and then my own etc, along with the iPods/pads/phones etc) but now I'm hardly ever asked to look after even
a laptop (that said I did do 3 for a mate recently and I have a MacBook
iOS upgrade pending) as many people seem to only uses their phones or
tablets nowdays, that aren't as easy to properly screw up. ;-)
The odd times I end up here with an Apple related questions you have
often offered help and that's always been appreciated but you do have
the controls re what posts you read or respond to from anyone. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
I'd agree that a fair few humans seem hell bent on killing as much of the >>> flora and fauna as they can in their short lives.
Don't they just ... and my issue is they do so at a huge cost to all of
us. ;-(
Yup.
On 29/12/2022 14:18, Andy Hewitt wrote:
Crikey, you really don't give up, and have so much wrong about all I
said.
Oh, I see, you are the one out of us who determines when a conversation
has finished?
You can make statements and don't expect me to respond to them?
You're right about one thing, I should have just shut the fuck up in
the first place.
Well, if you aren't willing to be open minded then it's probably not
best not to try to enter a conversation that's for sure, especially one
with facets as important as the future of humanity!
It's a shame that this group has changed so much for the worse (yeah,
I know I should also learn when to not bite, can't always help it).
;-)
It did used to be moderated, but I guess no one wants that baton any
more.
I believe that it would be better if it were, depending on how busy it
is in general and as long the signal overcomes the noise.
Perhaps it's easier just to call it a day.'Easier?', possibly, if as you say you can't resisting biting re off
topic subjects or even subjects that might be considered as on-topic by
less rigid participants (like technical technical / functional
comparisons between Apple OS's and others you mentioned) but if you can
and filter out those who never post around Apple stuff, and ignore OT
stuff then I guess it's down to what's left?
It's my observation that many newsgroups are drifting towards a more
'open' discussion range because if they don't, they could die out
completely because of lack of activity (and many ISP's have already
stopped hosting newsgroups, like VM) and because of users moving to
other types of social media that seem to better suit todays sorts of
social interaction, especially supporting other forms of media like
pictures, polls and files etc (and I believe you can with binary NG's
but not quite as flexibly).
FWIW I have never used Twitter, TikTok, Snapchat or Insta, I used FB now
and again for groups that only have their presence on that platform but
now use Reddit quite a bit because you can find reasonably active fairly specialist groups and the moderation seems reasonable (I don't know if
all Reddit groups are moderated but the ones I happen to use seem to be).
So I think it's a bit like my involvement with 'computers'. Years ago I
was regularly building, installing, upgrading and maintaining PCs of all shapes and sizes (inc doing a fair bit on Apple gear via Dads SE > CRT
iMac and daughters Mac Mini and then my own etc, along with the iPods/pads/phones etc) but now I'm hardly ever asked to look after even
a laptop (that said I did do 3 for a mate recently and I have a MacBook
iOS upgrade pending) as many people seem to only uses their phones or
tablets nowdays, that aren't as easy to properly screw up. ;-)
The odd times I end up here with an Apple related questions you have
often offered help and that's always been appreciated but you do have
the controls re what posts you read or respond to from anyone. ;-)
On 28/12/2022 20:25, Andy Hewitt wrote:
<snip>
On 23/12/2022 17:35, T i m wrote:
I considered a lengthy and detailed response, but then changed my mind,
and decided to enjoy Christmas without being sent on a guilt trip about
my life choices.
Any guilt is your own Andy and it's right you should have such when your (our) lifestyle choices impact others.
So yopu can either just carry on with them or do something about it.
I now know how heavy my cognitive dissonance (the mental gymnastics we
have to go though trying to carry two conflicting ideal in our heads at
the same time, like 'love animals' / 'kill animals'.
I know that if we 'Google' enough, we can always find the answer we're
looking for.
None of what I have said is my opinion, it's simply the current science (medical, climate etc (< significantly driven by animal agriculture)).
Any guilt is your own Andy and it's right you should have such when your
(our) lifestyle choices impact others.
You have no authority, moral or otherwise, to dictate how anyone should
feel. Not sure why you feel you do?
So yopu can either just carry on with them or do something about it.
I now know how heavy my cognitive dissonance (the mental gymnastics we
have to go though trying to carry two conflicting ideal in our heads at
the same time, like 'love animals' / 'kill animals'.
Most people are rational without having to resort to extremist sentiment.
I know that if we 'Google' enough, we can always find the answer we're
looking for.
None of what I have said is my opinion, it's simply the current science
(medical, climate etc (< significantly driven by animal agriculture)).
What you're touting isn't science.
You're simply a vegan evangelist that
wants everyone to be like you.
I'm open minded,
I just didn't want to discuss this subject here, and
regret getting started at all, to be honest.
It's a shame that this group has changed so much for the worse (yeah,
I know I should also learn when to not bite, can't always help it).
;-)
It did used to be moderated, but I guess no one wants that baton any
more.
I believe that it would be better if it were, depending on how busy it
is in general and as long the signal overcomes the noise.
It doesn't though, that's why I get annoyed. But, I'm not an official moderator (nor want to be one), so I can only remain annoyed about it.
Perhaps it's easier just to call it a day.'Easier?', possibly, if as you say you can't resisting biting re off
topic subjects or even subjects that might be considered as on-topic
by less rigid participants (like technical technical / functional
comparisons between Apple OS's and others you mentioned) but if you
can and filter out those who never post around Apple stuff, and ignore
OT stuff then I guess it's down to what's left?
You don't present a technical comparison though, you're comments start
with 'on a personal note', and is perceived as a 'dig' at the Apple
product.
No issue with someone disliking Apple gear,
but it doesn't help
at all when asking for help to start off by showing your contempt for
that product.
It's my observation that many newsgroups are drifting towards a more
'open' discussion range because if they don't, they could die out
completely because of lack of activity (and many ISP's have already
stopped hosting newsgroups, like VM) and because of users moving to
other types of social media that seem to better suit todays sorts of
social interaction, especially supporting other forms of media like
pictures, polls and files etc (and I believe you can with binary NG's
but not quite as flexibly).
If they die out, it's because there's no longer an interest in
discussing that subject in a newsgroup.
Newsgroups are a diminishing
format anyway, people have found other ways to discuss things.
There are over 100,000 groups out there (depending on your choice of
server), with enough specific subjects to cover almost everything (and
you can request new ones if they don't). We don't need to completely
fill them all with off topic crap just to keep them running.
Some of them have died out because regulars have gone away because of
this issue.
The odd times I end up here with an Apple related questions you have
often offered help and that's always been appreciated but you do have
the controls re what posts you read or respond to from anyone. ;-)
I do, and where I feel there was a genuine question,
distracted by
unnecessarily toxic comments, I say so, rather than ignore it.
Perhaps I just want to see this group getting back to where it was a few years ago.
I do realise I'm pissing into the wind though.
Although I've not participated in your conversations/posts, Tim, I have
read and enjoyed all of them. Certainly food for thought at times! ;-)
If your friends here in 'ucsm' become annoyed with you,
you will always
be welcome over in 'alt.computer.workshop' a once-dead Usenet group
which I resurected some years ago as my own small space on the Internet.
There, no subject is 'out of bounds'!
But your continued (over many years) comments do come across as with
some contempt.
On 30/12/2022 06:35, Andy Hewitt wrote:
<snip>
I'm open minded,
Maybe ... but not necessarily across all subjects (IMHO). And that's understandable of course, people can be frightened of the thought of
change or don't think they know enough about it to know the best way
(like me and not voting for / against Brexit), or feel like they are
being challenged and often for no tangible reason (because they admit
they don't know enough about it).
'Easier?', possibly, if as you say you can't resisting biting re off
topic subjects or even subjects that might be considered as on-topic
by less rigid participants (like technical technical / functional
comparisons between Apple OS's and others you mentioned) but if you
can and filter out those who never post around Apple stuff, and
ignore OT stuff then I guess it's down to what's left?
You don't present a technical comparison though, you're comments start
with 'on a personal note', and is perceived as a 'dig' at the Apple
product.
But could that be just how *you* see it? Or even if it's true, can't you
rise above it?
No issue with someone disliking Apple gear,
Not how it comes across here and sorta confirmed by your responses? I'm pretty sure I've *never* said 'I don't like Apple gear' because I don't?
Can I typically afford it? No. Can I build an Apple PC from generic
parts myself, typically not. Does Apple have the lions share of the PC
market and so that level of support / integration as Windows stuff.
but it doesn't help at all when asking for help to start off by
showing your contempt for that product.
See above. I really think you have an issue dealing with me and the fact
that I haven't bought into the whole Apple thing? Loads of Apple fanboys
are *far* more critical of Apple stuff, both hardware and software and
that's ok by you it seems? Plus, I'm pretty sure I don't show contempt
as you say and the fact that you *think* that I do may reveal more about
you than you intended? ;-(
Further, why would I have gone out and bought an iPhone 11 for my Mum to replace her 6, or buy her a bigger / newer iPad to replace her old one,
or pay for iCloud for her if I was so contemptuous of Apple? Why did I
run an Apple Mini for about 10 years till it finally ground to a halt
(well, XP that I ran on it because it was still more compatible with the
rest of the world than 10.4 (<not a dig, a fact)).
The odd times I end up here with an Apple related questions you have
often offered help and that's always been appreciated but you do have
the controls re what posts you read or respond to from anyone. ;-)
I do, and where I feel there was a genuine question,
'Where you feel ...' ... which in most of my posts around Apple stuff is likely to be 99.9% of the time.
distracted by unnecessarily toxic comments, I say so, rather than
ignore it.
Then that's your call but you can't blame me for how you *choose* to interpret the spirit of my purpose here (normally, not this thread that
was OT at the outset of course).
Perhaps I just want to see this group getting back to where it was a
few years ago.
Nothing wrong with that, just that the world is moving on and things, attitudes change and for us who may be entrenched, not always for the best?
I do realise I'm pissing into the wind though.
Well, whilst that might be the case ITRW, I think it's important that we
do try to stand up for those things we feel / are important, be it the
purity of the subject matter on a newsgroup or the future of humanity
and to which we should all try to play our part.;-)
On 29/12/2022 22:37, David Brooks wrote:
<snip>
Although I've not participated in your conversations/posts, Tim, I
have read and enjoyed all of them. Certainly food for thought at
times! ;-)
Thank you. I believe there are some topics that are already impacting us
all that nearly transcend any topic boundaries.
Few Apple devices will
work well (or for long) if underwater! ;-)
If your friends here in 'ucsm' become annoyed with you,
Some have over the years that's for sure and in some cases I can't blame
them (and am very happy when they killfile me, especially if they do so
like a man and not continue throwing stones from behind it).
Many of the others 'get' my core objectives and seem willing and happy
to deal with me on them and others seem willing to discuss all sorts of
OT stuff.
you will always
be welcome over in 'alt.computer.workshop' a once-dead Usenet group
which I resurected some years ago as my own small space on the Internet.
Cool, I may well do.
There, no subject is 'out of bounds'!Even better, within reason of course (Freedom of Speech should have
limits etc).
A mate is running a 'Men in sheds' group and seems to be building up
quite a lot of support, not only from people making use of the facility
but the local authorities, wanting 'in'.
So, whilst the object / focus is presented as a place people could go to build / make / repair stuff, it's real purpose is to provide a facility
for people who may otherwise not socialise, do so, hopefully uplifting
their mental well-being.
Cheers, T i m
On 30/12/2022 12:54, T i m wrote:
On 30/12/2022 06:35, Andy Hewitt wrote:
<snip>
I'm open minded,
Maybe ... but not necessarily across all subjects (IMHO). And that's
understandable of course, people can be frightened of the thought of
change or don't think they know enough about it to know the best way
(like me and not voting for / against Brexit), or feel like they are
being challenged and often for no tangible reason (because they admit
they don't know enough about it).
Jeez, you really don't know me at all.
Not how it comes across here and sorta confirmed by your responses?
I'm pretty sure I've *never* said 'I don't like Apple gear' because I
don't? Can I typically afford it? No. Can I build an Apple PC from
generic parts myself, typically not. Does Apple have the lions share
of the PC market and so that level of support / integration as Windows
stuff.
What does any of that matter, it's not what Apple gear is about, never
has been.
but it doesn't help at all when asking for help to start off by
showing your contempt for that product.
See above. I really think you have an issue dealing with me and the
fact that I haven't bought into the whole Apple thing? Loads of Apple
fanboys are *far* more critical of Apple stuff, both hardware and
software and that's ok by you it seems? Plus, I'm pretty sure I don't
show contempt as you say and the fact that you *think* that I do may
reveal more about you than you intended? ;-(
I don't care that you haven't bought into the whole Apple thing. Not
bothered one iota.
But your continued (over many years) comments do come across as with
some contempt.
Further, why would I have gone out and bought an iPhone 11 for my Mum
to replace her 6, or buy her a bigger / newer iPad to replace her old
one, or pay for iCloud for her if I was so contemptuous of Apple? Why
did I run an Apple Mini for about 10 years till it finally ground to a
halt (well, XP that I ran on it because it was still more compatible
with the rest of the world than 10.4 (<not a dig, a fact)).
I have no idea.
I have never had to install anything other than Mac OS
to be compatible with the rest of the world.
I've used, and owned, other
machines, but only to learn on and experiment with.
[..]
The odd times I end up here with an Apple related questions you haveI do, and where I feel there was a genuine question,
often offered help and that's always been appreciated but you do
have the controls re what posts you read or respond to from anyone. ;-) >>>
'Where you feel ...' ... which in most of my posts around Apple stuff
is likely to be 99.9% of the time.
From 'anyone'.
distracted by unnecessarily toxic comments, I say so, rather than
ignore it.
Then that's your call but you can't blame me for how you *choose* to
interpret the spirit of my purpose here (normally, not this thread
that was OT at the outset of course).
I *choose* nothing, it just happens. The 'spirit' is mixed when it asks
as genuine question, and then ends with a 'by the way, the UI is
pants...' kind of comment.
To be clear, I'm not concerned about the accuracy of your assessment of Apple's OSs and UIs, just the need to make the comment in the first
place.
I'm sure we're all aware that some will prefer something
different to the next person,
and there are those that won't find any of
it easy.
As for this thread, yeah, I regret contributing at all. It's clear we're
just going to end up in an infinite circular argument, at least as far
as I can see.
Perhaps I just want to see this group getting back to where it was a
few years ago.
Nothing wrong with that, just that the world is moving on and things,
attitudes change and for us who may be entrenched, not always for the
best?
Entrenched?
Why not just have a specific place we can discuss certain
subject matters.
Usenet was set up to do just that, and worked
reasonably well with some moderation, even from someone with the
authority, or from peer pressure, both of which don't seem to exist now.
We don't need to fix things that weren't broken.
I do realise I'm pissing into the wind though.
Well, whilst that might be the case ITRW, I think it's important that
we do try to stand up for those things we feel / are important, be it
the purity of the subject matter on a newsgroup or the future of
humanity and to which we should all try to play our part.;-)
Well, I think in both cases, we're doomed anyway ;-)
On 30/12/2022 11:37, Chris wrote:
<snip>
Any guilt is your own Andy and it's right you should have such when your >>> (our) lifestyle choices impact others.
You have no authority, moral or otherwise, to dictate how anyone should
feel. Not sure why you feel you do?
'Dictate'? You really don't seem to understand just how far from being
able to 'dictate' anything over usenet!
So yopu can either just carry on with them or do something about it.
I now know how heavy my cognitive dissonance (the mental gymnastics we
have to go though trying to carry two conflicting ideal in our heads at
the same time, like 'love animals' / 'kill animals'.
Most people are rational without having to resort to extremist sentiment.
No they aren't.
Daughter has manned several vegan activist 'Cubes' and most people
seeing std practice UK slaughterhouse footage flinch and look away.
What
they are clearly demonstrating is 'extremist sentiment' or I'm guessing
they could carry on watching it (whilst still eating their burger)?
I know that if we 'Google' enough, we can always find the answer we're >>>> looking for.
None of what I have said is my opinion, it's simply the current science
(medical, climate etc (< significantly driven by animal agriculture)).
What you're touting isn't science.
Oh the irony!
You're simply a vegan evangelist that
wants everyone to be like you.
Yes Chris, that's *exactly* what I'm doing because it will make me
personally so much better off, nothing to do with trying to make the
world a kinder and better place and one that's still habitable by those generations who follow us.
If you want to find the causes of most of the bad things that happen on
this planet, follow the money, follow those looking to gain most from
the exploitation of others and if you are one of those there is no doubt
you will try to spread the FUD the loudest (using emotive words like 'evangelist'), because you have a vested interest in it all.
On 30/12/2022 16:53, Andy Hewitt wrote:
Jeez, you really don't know me at all.
Sorry, why on earth would you assume I was talking entirely about you?
Or are you questioning the only bit that referred to you specifically
and it appears (IMHO) that you aren't open minded across all subjects, especially animal rights for instance? Not to mention my attitude
towards Apple etc?
I have no idea.
So it seems. ;-(
I have never had to install anything other than Mac OS to be
compatible with the rest of the world.
Andy, you really seem to have an issue with seeing things as others
might. IRCGAF what works for you. Fact. The OS world IS Windows centric
and so *IF* you are someone who uses a wide range of hardware, *the-chances-are* you will have more support using widows than any other desktop OS, fact. I'm pretty sure anyone here who uses OSX, Windows and
Linux could build a list of the hardware that is supported by each OS
and the chances are the longest list will be under Windows. That's not
me dissing anything, it's *just* a statement of fact.
I've used, and owned, other machines, but only to learn on and
experiment with.
Then with respect you may not be best suited to be able to comment on
how *other people* may come across issues on a variety of OS's.
From 'anyone'.
Ok. So do you jump on 'anyone' in the same way to appear to jump on me?
I *choose* nothing, it just happens. The 'spirit' is mixed when it
asks as genuine question, and then ends with a 'by the way, the UI is
pants...' kind of comment.
In your head. But what if it is how I find it? Don't I have the right to say so, given the chances are the number of times I could say
such is a fraction of the times that Apple Fanboys complain about stuff
by comparison?
To be clear, I'm not concerned about the accuracy of your assessment
of Apple's OSs and UIs, just the need to make the comment in the first
place.
I don't *need* to do any such thing (unless you can cite such in any charter)?
I'm sure we're all aware that some will prefer something different to
the next person,
And some seem to except that easier than others.
and there are those that won't find any of it easy.
Of course. Now, if it's 'sold' as being 'easy' and it appears not to be, should we just keep quiet? I've seen many posts recently about the whole closing apps / window question and pretty sure many people using any OS
that does that after Windows may question the same and ... <you may have
to sit down for this>, not like it.
Nothing wrong with that, just that the world is moving on and things,
attitudes change and for us who may be entrenched, not always for the
best?
Entrenched?
Yes:
"(of an attitude, habit, or belief) firmly established and difficult or unlikely to change; ingrained.
"an entrenched resistance to change"
Why not just have a specific place we can discuss certain subject
matters.
No reason at all but you seem to have missed / ignored my comment about things changing?
Usenet was set up to do just that, and worked reasonably well with
some moderation, even from someone with the authority, or from peer
pressure, both of which don't seem to exist now.
True, and the only people expecting something like that to stay the same
are those with an entrenched view. ;-)
I do realise I'm pissing into the wind though.
Well, whilst that might be the case ITRW, I think it's important that
we do try to stand up for those things we feel / are important, be it
the purity of the subject matter on a newsgroup or the future of
humanity and to which we should all try to play our part.;-)
Well, I think in both cases, we're doomed anyway ;-)
The genuinely frightening thing is that you may well be right ...
however, *we* have the options of either just letting anything go or
standing up for what we believe is right? ;-)
On 30/12/2022 14:46, T i m wrote:
On 29/12/2022 22:37, David Brooks wrote:
<snip>
Although I've not participated in your conversations/posts, Tim, I
have read and enjoyed all of them. Certainly food for thought at
times! ;-)
Thank you. I believe there are some topics that are already impacting
us all that nearly transcend any topic boundaries.
I've never understood why folk are so protective of 'old hat' technology
like the Usenet.
Few Apple devices will work well (or for long) if underwater! ;-)
That's true! I appreciate that you weren't including devices on board submarines!
If your friends here in 'ucsm' become annoyed with you,
Some have over the years that's for sure and in some cases I can't
blame them (and am very happy when they killfile me, especially if
they do so like a man and not continue throwing stones from behind it).
They are certainly a weird bunch.
They've never liked me talking about
'malware' - almost as if they are INVOLVED in its propogation.
Many of the others 'get' my core objectives and seem willing and happy
to deal with me on them and others seem willing to discuss all sorts
of OT stuff.
Many of the points you raise are thought-provoking.
you will always
be welcome over in 'alt.computer.workshop' a once-dead Usenet group
which I resurected some years ago as my own small space on the Internet.
Cool, I may well do.
If you do, be aware that a "Flood Bot" is currently operating there.
Steer clear of any poster having [email protected] in their email
address.
There, no subject is 'out of bounds'!Even better, within reason of course (Freedom of Speech should have
limits etc).
Most posters avoid using foul language of their own volition.
A mate is running a 'Men in sheds' group and seems to be building up
quite a lot of support, not only from people making use of the
facility but the local authorities, wanting 'in'.
Is that on the Usenet or elsewhere?
So, whilst the object / focus is presented as a place people could go
to build / make / repair stuff, it's real purpose is to provide a
facility for people who may otherwise not socialise, do so, hopefully
uplifting their mental well-being.
I've personally visited two very active ones locally. One in Exmouth and
the other in Ottery St.Mary
On 30/12/2022 17:27, T i m wrote:
On 30/12/2022 16:53, Andy Hewitt wrote:
Jeez, you really don't know me at all.
Sorry, why on earth would you assume I was talking entirely about you?
Or are you questioning the only bit that referred to you specifically
and it appears (IMHO) that you aren't open minded across all subjects,
especially animal rights for instance? Not to mention my attitude
towards Apple etc?
Why on earth wouldn't I assume that, especially when you confirm that is
is personally aimed at me!
As I say, you don't know me at all,
and I certainly don't need to
explain or justify my own feelings and thoughts about such things to
you, or anyone.
I made a few comments, which clearly have been taken out
of context, and do not represent my knowledge, experience, or personal opinions on many things.
[..]
I have no idea.
So it seems. ;-(
I have never had to install anything other than Mac OS to be
compatible with the rest of the world.
Andy, you really seem to have an issue with seeing things as others
might. IRCGAF what works for you. Fact. The OS world IS Windows
centric and so *IF* you are someone who uses a wide range of hardware,
*the-chances-are* you will have more support using widows than any
other desktop OS, fact. I'm pretty sure anyone here who uses OSX,
Windows and Linux could build a list of the hardware that is supported
by each OS and the chances are the longest list will be under Windows.
That's not me dissing anything, it's *just* a statement of fact.
Sometimes people have asked about non-Mac stuff, sometimes someone can
help, often they'll get pointed elsewhere, where they can get more appropriate help.
You haven't really presented any great revelations though.
I've used, and owned, other machines, but only to learn on and
experiment with.
Then with respect you may not be best suited to be able to comment on
how *other people* may come across issues on a variety of OS's.
Hmm, yes, sorry, I meant at home (I did omit some of the old stuff in
the 80s too).
At work I have used many more OSs over the years, from
custom mainframe systems, through most all Windows systems, and
Xenix/Unix systems.
Of course I can comment of the use of various OSs.
From 'anyone'.
Ok. So do you jump on 'anyone' in the same way to appear to jump on me?
I have, yes.
[..]
I *choose* nothing, it just happens. The 'spirit' is mixed when it
asks as genuine question, and then ends with a 'by the way, the UI is
pants...' kind of comment.
In your head. But what if it is how I find it? Don't I have the >> right to say so, given the chances are the number of times I could say
such is a fraction of the times that Apple Fanboys complain about
stuff by comparison?
If you have a specific issue with something you don't know how to
operate, that's what we're here for.
To be clear, I'm not concerned about the accuracy of your assessment
of Apple's OSs and UIs, just the need to make the comment in the
first place.
I don't *need* to do any such thing (unless you can cite such in any
charter)?
Well, yes, we did used to have one actually.
Of course it's long demised
along with the existence of moderators.
I'm sure we're all aware that some will prefer something different to
the next person,
And some seem to except that easier than others.
and there are those that won't find any of it easy.
Of course. Now, if it's 'sold' as being 'easy' and it appears not to
be, should we just keep quiet? I've seen many posts recently about the
whole closing apps / window question and pretty sure many people using
any OS that does that after Windows may question the same and ... <you
may have to sit down for this>, not like it.
It's not a new subject, it's been a matter of conversation for many
years, that's no revelation either.
But, where do *you* decide on the criteria for being 'easy'? If the vast majority find a system easy enough to use, then surely, it's 'easy'.
Doesn't matter what OS it is, all of them now will be 'easy' for the
vast majority (simple evolution of software has ensured that, for all platforms).
There will be a some that find it harder, some that simply
don't like it, and a few that will find any of them hard, because they
simply have a different mindset.
In my experience, for those few, it doesn't really matter what UI you
present them with, they will struggle with it.
Why not just have a specific place we can discuss certain subject
matters.
No reason at all but you seem to have missed / ignored my comment
about things changing?
No, I didn't. Not everything needs to change.
You can change for the
sake of it.
Usenet was set up to do just that, and worked reasonably well with
some moderation, even from someone with the authority, or from peer
pressure, both of which don't seem to exist now.
True, and the only people expecting something like that to stay the
same are those with an entrenched view. ;-)
<head in hands> really!
Well, I think in both cases, we're doomed anyway ;-)
The genuinely frightening thing is that you may well be right ...
however, *we* have the options of either just letting anything go or
standing up for what we believe is right? ;-)
Indeed so, but only if it's directed in the right way.
Clearly in this
group, it is not (looking at the other replies, it's not just me, not counting the usual suspects).
T i m <[email protected]> wrote:
On 30/12/2022 11:37, Chris wrote:
<snip>
Any guilt is your own Andy and it's right you should have such when your >>>> (our) lifestyle choices impact others.
You have no authority, moral or otherwise, to dictate how anyone should
feel. Not sure why you feel you do?
'Dictate'? You really don't seem to understand just how far from being
able to 'dictate' anything over usenet!
Try reading again what you wrote.
You were telling Andy how he should feel.
No they aren't.So yopu can either just carry on with them or do something about it.
I now know how heavy my cognitive dissonance (the mental gymnastics we >>>> have to go though trying to carry two conflicting ideal in our heads at >>>> the same time, like 'love animals' / 'kill animals'.
Most people are rational without having to resort to extremist sentiment. >>
Are you some sort of caricature?
Daughter has manned several vegan activist 'Cubes' and most people
seeing std practice UK slaughterhouse footage flinch and look away.
Nice anecdote.
What
they are clearly demonstrating is 'extremist sentiment' or I'm guessing
they could carry on watching it (whilst still eating their burger)?
Does your daughter then call them nazis, which is what I was referring to?
Or have you already forgotten?
I know that if we 'Google' enough, we can always find the answer we're >>>>> looking for.
None of what I have said is my opinion, it's simply the current science >>>> (medical, climate etc (< significantly driven by animal agriculture)).
What you're touting isn't science.
Oh the irony!
It is depressing that you don't know the difference.
You're simply a vegan evangelist that
wants everyone to be like you.
Yes Chris, that's *exactly* what I'm doing because it will make me
personally so much better off, nothing to do with trying to make the
world a kinder and better place and one that's still habitable by those
generations who follow us.
I honestly can't tell if you're joking.
If you want to find the causes of most of the bad things that happen on
this planet, follow the money, follow those looking to gain most from
the exploitation of others and if you are one of those there is no doubt
you will try to spread the FUD the loudest (using emotive words like
'evangelist'), because you have a vested interest in it all.
Is that really all you have?
You attempting to smear me, rather than tackle
the issue.
Why are you still flogging this?
You already lost, remember.
On 30/12/2022 18:01, Chris wrote:
T i m <[email protected]> wrote:
On 30/12/2022 11:37, Chris wrote:
<snip>
Any guilt is your own Andy and it's right you should have such when your >>>>> (our) lifestyle choices impact others.
You have no authority, moral or otherwise, to dictate how anyone should >>>> feel. Not sure why you feel you do?
'Dictate'? You really don't seem to understand just how far from being
able to 'dictate' anything over usenet!
Try reading again what you wrote.
Ok ...
You were telling Andy how he should feel.
Sorry, I thought this was a UK based NG and so English would be the
native language?
I've TOLD Andy nothing. I've SUGGESTED that his feelings are his own and normal. I know because I and many others have felt them ourselves.
No they aren't.So yopu can either just carry on with them or do something about it. >>>>>
I now know how heavy my cognitive dissonance (the mental gymnastics we >>>>> have to go though trying to carry two conflicting ideal in our heads at >>>>> the same time, like 'love animals' / 'kill animals'.
Most people are rational without having to resort to extremist sentiment. >>>
Are you some sort of caricature?
Are you some sort of troll?
Daughter has manned several vegan activist 'Cubes' and most people
seeing std practice UK slaughterhouse footage flinch and look away.
Nice anecdote.
But true though and a shame the best you could come back with.
What
they are clearly demonstrating is 'extremist sentiment' or I'm guessing
they could carry on watching it (whilst still eating their burger)?
Does your daughter then call them nazis, which is what I was referring to?
Ah, the sub thread you oped out of when you snipped it all. Nice
strawman Chris.
Or have you already forgotten?
I may be old but I can still remember what I and others say.
What you're touting isn't science.I know that if we 'Google' enough, we can always find the answer we're >>>>>> looking for.
None of what I have said is my opinion, it's simply the current science >>>>> (medical, climate etc (< significantly driven by animal agriculture)). >>>>
Oh the irony!
It is depressing that you don't know the difference.
It's not surprising that you think I don't.
You're simply a vegan evangelist that
wants everyone to be like you.
Yes Chris, that's *exactly* what I'm doing because it will make me
personally so much better off, nothing to do with trying to make the
world a kinder and better place and one that's still habitable by those
generations who follow us.
I honestly can't tell if you're joking.
I know, that's the limitations with AI bots. In the hope they can
improve your routines, I was being ironic and sarcastic.
If you want to find the causes of most of the bad things that happen on
this planet, follow the money, follow those looking to gain most from
the exploitation of others and if you are one of those there is no doubt >>> you will try to spread the FUD the loudest (using emotive words like
'evangelist'), because you have a vested interest in it all.
Is that really all you have?
Don't really need much more do I?
You attempting to smear me, rather than tackle
the issue.
Says the man snipping what he can't reply to?
Why are you still flogging this?
Like 'flogging a dead horse' you mean? That should be ok as long as you
don't take a selfie whilst sitting on it! ;-)
You already lost, remember.
Thanks, back to my point, it's not a game and the losers look to be all
of us (so thanks for that). ;-(
T i m <[email protected]> wrote:
On 30/12/2022 18:01, Chris wrote:
T i m <[email protected]> wrote:
On 30/12/2022 11:37, Chris wrote:
<snip>
Any guilt is your own Andy and it's right you should have such when your >>>>>> (our) lifestyle choices impact others.
You have no authority, moral or otherwise, to dictate how anyone should >>>>> feel. Not sure why you feel you do?
'Dictate'? You really don't seem to understand just how far from being >>>> able to 'dictate' anything over usenet!
Try reading again what you wrote.
Ok ...
You were telling Andy how he should feel.
Sorry, I thought this was a UK based NG and so English would be the
native language?
I've TOLD Andy nothing. I've SUGGESTED that his feelings are his own and
normal. I know because I and many others have felt them ourselves.
Thanks for agreeing with my point.
No they aren't.So yopu can either just carry on with them or do something about it. >>>>>>
I now know how heavy my cognitive dissonance (the mental gymnastics we >>>>>> have to go though trying to carry two conflicting ideal in our heads at >>>>>> the same time, like 'love animals' / 'kill animals'.
Most people are rational without having to resort to extremist sentiment. >>>>
Are you some sort of caricature?
Are you some sort of troll?
You're projecting, again.
Daughter has manned several vegan activist 'Cubes' and most people
seeing std practice UK slaughterhouse footage flinch and look away.
Nice anecdote.
But true though and a shame the best you could come back with.
I didn't say it wasn't true <sigh>.
People also flinch when watching
footage of human surgery.
Let's ban operations too, eh?
Ah, the sub thread you oped out of when you snipped it all. NiceWhat
they are clearly demonstrating is 'extremist sentiment' or I'm guessing >>>> they could carry on watching it (whilst still eating their burger)?
Does your daughter then call them nazis, which is what I was referring to? >>
strawman Chris.
Argumentation isn't your strong point is it? Referring to an actual event - which you were involved in - is not a strawman. I snipped because once you invoke Godwin's Law everything you say in your argument is invalidated.
On 30/12/2022 18:01, Andy Hewitt wrote:
Sorry, why on earth would you assume I was talking entirely about
you? Or are you questioning the only bit that referred to you
specifically and it appears (IMHO) that you aren't open minded across
all subjects, especially animal rights for instance? Not to mention
my attitude towards Apple etc?
Why on earth wouldn't I assume that, especially when you confirm that
is is personally aimed at me!
But I haven't claimed that of *it* ... and reinforces my point about you often picking up the sh1tty end of the stick.
For clarity, that paragraph was broken into two parts.
The first part was specifically referencing MY perception of you from
what you have said here.
The second part was about 'other people'. Now if you choose to include yourself in that then that's up to you?
At work I have used many more OSs over the years, from custom
mainframe systems, through most all Windows systems, and Xenix/Unix
systems.
I thought you had and partly why I pushed you on it.
To be clear, I'm not concerned about the accuracy of your assessment
of Apple's OSs and UIs, just the need to make the comment in the
first place.
I don't *need* to do any such thing (unless you can cite such in any
charter)?
Well, yes, we did used to have one actually.
Was it in there can you remember? ;-) >
Of course it's long demised along with the existence of moderators.
Of course. Now, if it's 'sold' as being 'easy' and it appears not to
be, should we just keep quiet? I've seen many posts recently about
the whole closing apps / window question and pretty sure many people
using any OS that does that after Windows may question the same and
... <you may have to sit down for this>, not like it.
It's not a new subject, it's been a matter of conversation for many
years, that's no revelation either.
It wasn't meant to be, it was just an example of an instance where
people think something is sh1t, even when the justification / design is explained to them. I think that's their right to do, I feel you would question their right because you may feel your insight means they are
wrong (when it's just how they feel for their own reasons)?
But, where do *you* decide on the criteria for being 'easy'? If the
vast majority find a system easy enough to use, then surely, it's 'easy'.
Ah, I see where the confusion might lie, you think when I say 'I don't
find it easy' you think I'm saying 'No one finds it easy' (when I'm
obviously not). This was what I was saying about you being triggered by stuff, the hackles and red mist goes up and you read into things more
than was ever meant or said?
Doesn't matter what OS it is, all of them now will be 'easy' for the
vast majority (simple evolution of software has ensured that, for all
platforms).
I disagree. I have been in IT / IT support most my life, my daughter has rarely read a user manual on anything technical and my Mum has had apple devices for some time. Maybe we can discount Mum because of her age and
her non-technical background she might equally find an Android phone or tablet confusing but what about daughter and I? Can we work our way
round a Mac, iPad or iPhone if necessary or if asked to help someone?
Yes, sometimes, if we get lucky. Do we find it anything like logical or
easy when compared with *everything* else we have used? No, in fact it's
far from it.
There will be a some that find it harder, some that simply don't like
it, and a few that will find any of them hard, because they simply
have a different mindset.
Of course ... or some solutions might be better suited and so more easy
than others, meaning that some will also be less easy than others. I'm
glad we have cleared that up at last. ;-)
In my experience, for those few, it doesn't really matter what UI you
present them with, they will struggle with it.
Quite, so why try to deny such exists or that they are actively treating something with 'contempt' when they are simply voicing how something IS
to THEM?
Q. (I've been struggling with something that should, based on all my
life experience so far with similar solutions ...) could someone tell me
how to do <whatever> on this iPhone please. I do it like this on my
Android phone (confirming what the goal is and that I can actually do it
on alternative solutions) and feel I must be missing something (as no solution should be be that complicated / difficult / frustrating / hidden)?
A. Have a look under Settings > General > [Some obscure heading] > [Some obscure name] and make sure it's set to 98 PSI. ;-)
The point. The user was able to do what they wanted on another device
and didn't have to ask anywhere. Not because they had done it before, or
were particularly technical, just that it appeared to be logical TO THEM (them, not you or anyone else). ;-)
Usenet was set up to do just that, and worked reasonably well with
some moderation, even from someone with the authority, or from peer
pressure, both of which don't seem to exist now.
True, and the only people expecting something like that to stay the
same are those with an entrenched view. ;-)
<head in hands> really!
Did you not see the dictionary definition of 'entrenched'. It perfectly describes exactly what you spell out above!
'You can change for the sake of it' (I'd prefer things stayed exactly as
they are because that's how it's always been, that's what I like, they
work and don't see a need for it to change, even if others might prefer
it to change) = 'entrenched'. ;-)
Quite, so why try to deny such exists or that they are actively treating
something with 'contempt' when they are simply voicing how something IS
to THEM?
Q. (I've been struggling with something that should, based on all my
life experience so far with similar solutions ...) could someone tell me
how to do <whatever> on this iPhone please. I do it like this on my
Android phone (confirming what the goal is and that I can actually do it
on alternative solutions) and feel I must be missing something (as no
solution should be be that complicated / difficult / frustrating / hidden)? >>
A. Have a look under Settings > General > [Some obscure heading] > [Some
obscure name] and make sure it's set to 98 PSI. ;-)
The point. The user was able to do what they wanted on another device
and didn't have to ask anywhere. Not because they had done it before, or
were particularly technical, just that it appeared to be logical TO THEM
(them, not you or anyone else). ;-)
OOI, the whole animal rights / protecting humanity sub thread came out
of a conversation of a loss of some family. I wasn't 'evangelising'
about trying to reduce animal cruelty (something most people abhor in
any case) or protecting the environment (something else most people
agree with. As long as it only means putting a sticker in their car, not *actually* changing their lifestyle or anything). <weg>
David "Similar - but had it been a car accident there would have been
someone for us to blame."
Me "Ah, true. I haven't mentioned these thoughts to my Mrs but
stepdaughter did smoke and loved her processed meats, both linked to increased health risks inc bowel cancer and partly why we (x5) are now vegan."
David "Vegan, eh?!! That's a big step. My youngest nephew became a vegan
and I recall that when he came for my daughter's big 40 birtday party
all he could eat was packets of crisps! Some years ago he ended up
workng in Argentina and decided that eating wonderful (and cheap!)
succelent steak was a far better option!"
Now, David could have equally gone on the smoking tack and I would have commented that in the same way.
The rest as they say, is geography. 😉
Cheers, T i m
On 30/12/2022 20:09, T i m wrote:
On 30/12/2022 18:01, Andy Hewitt wrote:
Sorry, why on earth would you assume I was talking entirely about
you? Or are you questioning the only bit that referred to you
specifically and it appears (IMHO) that you aren't open minded
across all subjects, especially animal rights for instance? Not to
mention my attitude towards Apple etc?
Why on earth wouldn't I assume that, especially when you confirm that
is is personally aimed at me!
But I haven't claimed that of *it* ... and reinforces my point about
you often picking up the sh1tty end of the stick.
You said 'referred to you specifically'.
For clarity, that paragraph was broken into two parts.
The first part was specifically referencing MY perception of you from
what you have said here.
The second part was about 'other people'. Now if you choose to include
yourself in that then that's up to you?
Then the paragraph should have been separated, for clarity.
[..]
At work I have used many more OSs over the years, from custom
mainframe systems, through most all Windows systems, and Xenix/Unix
systems.
I thought you had and partly why I pushed you on it.
:-), sometimes I get lazy with my addition of info.
[..]
To be clear, I'm not concerned about the accuracy of your
assessment of Apple's OSs and UIs, just the need to make the
comment in the first place.
I don't *need* to do any such thing (unless you can cite such in any
charter)?
Well, yes, we did used to have one actually.
Was it in there can you remember? ;-) >
Of course it's long demised along with the existence of moderators.
It still exists:
http://www.usenet.org.uk/uk.comp.sys.mac.html#uk.comp.sys.mac
The key phrase in there being:
'Announcements that are of direct and specific relevance to UK Mac users
are welcome'.
And the tag line:
'Discussion relating to Apple's Macintosh computers'
It does state that the group is not moderated, but in the day, it was
quite strictly self-moderated by the users of it. It was also published
by one individual, but generally adopted by all as a good practice
document to abide to.
I have no problem with anyone finding a particular function being shit,
if that's what they felt. The issue I have is an ambiguous, unspecific, statement of 'the UI is unintuitive'. Which clearly it isn't overall.
But, where do *you* decide on the criteria for being 'easy'? If the
vast majority find a system easy enough to use, then surely, it's
'easy'.
Ah, I see where the confusion might lie, you think when I say 'I don't
find it easy' you think I'm saying 'No one finds it easy' (when I'm
obviously not). This was what I was saying about you being triggered
by stuff, the hackles and red mist goes up and you read into things
more than was ever meant or said?
Your statements, although you cite 'personal', suggest it's a criticism
of the UI as a whole,
and would affect everyone, rather than you just
having a specific issue with something in the way it operates.
Doesn't matter what OS it is, all of them now will be 'easy' for the
vast majority (simple evolution of software has ensured that, for all
platforms).
I disagree. I have been in IT / IT support most my life, my daughter
has rarely read a user manual on anything technical and my Mum has had
apple devices for some time. Maybe we can discount Mum because of her
age and her non-technical background she might equally find an Android
phone or tablet confusing but what about daughter and I? Can we work
our way round a Mac, iPad or iPhone if necessary or if asked to help
someone? Yes, sometimes, if we get lucky. Do we find it anything like
logical or easy when compared with *everything* else we have used? No,
in fact it's far from it.
Well, then that's a problem nobody else can solve.
As far as I can see,
the Apple OSs, and UIs, have long been regarded as some of the best ever made.
Many have copied much of it.
The problem arises when someone a bit 'geeky/nerdy' want to piss around
with hidden settings. Apple has a policy of making the device 'just
work' without needing to do this, which in the main is fine for most.
It's nothing new, it's been their policy since the first Mac came out
40 years ago.
A. Have a look under Settings > General > [Some obscure heading] >
[Some obscure name] and make sure it's set to 98 PSI. ;-)
The point. The user was able to do what they wanted on another device
and didn't have to ask anywhere. Not because they had done it before,
or were particularly technical, just that it appeared to be logical TO
THEM (them, not you or anyone else). ;-)
That's just complete bollocks mate, sorry, but it is.
There's nothing
obscure,
unless the language settings of the device are incorrect! All
settings are in plain English (for a UK setup device).
Same as with any
other device.
You're just doing it again there, and showing your
contempt for the iOS system.
Just because they're not in exactly the same place, or perhaps not have exactly the same name, as another OS, does not make it unintuitive.
Apple were first to use the GUI in a 'personal' machine, and were the
first to introduce a 'smart' phone with a GUI. It's the others that are
using a different UI, as they have to due to copyright and such like.
You've chosen to use the alternative Android UI instead, which is fine,
not problem with that.
You've got used to the way that works,
and learnt
it,
and adapted to its changes over the years.
The iOS is 'different' to what you're used to. That's all.
[..]
Usenet was set up to do just that, and worked reasonably well with
some moderation, even from someone with the authority, or from peer
pressure, both of which don't seem to exist now.
True, and the only people expecting something like that to stay the
same are those with an entrenched view. ;-)
<head in hands> really!
Did you not see the dictionary definition of 'entrenched'. It
perfectly describes exactly what you spell out above!
'You can change for the sake of it' (I'd prefer things stayed exactly
as they are because that's how it's always been, that's what I like,
they work and don't see a need for it to change, even if others might
prefer it to change) = 'entrenched'. ;-)
I don't need the dictionary,
I know what it means, and you're simply
wrong.
I have no problem at all with change, but I do if that change is
not for the better,
The point. The user was able to do what they wanted on another device
and didn't have to ask anywhere. Not because they had done it before, or >>> were particularly technical, just that it appeared to be logical TO THEM >>> (them, not you or anyone else). ;-)
Have you got an example of doing the same thing on both OSs, where it's pretty
much impenetrable on Mac OS/iOS, yet trivially easy on say Windows or Linux? (If that is indeed the point you're trying to make?).
I fear many reading here have no understanding of the emptiness felt by
a parent who has lost a child.
On 31/12/2022 07:57, Andy Hewitt wrote:
Eg, I assumed we are 'ok'. I've known you for a long time and we have generally got on, been respectful of each other. We can disagree or even
be firm with each other, doesn't mean I would intentionally be nasty to
you etc?
Cheers. It's quite possible that 'UK Mac users' may not realise the
urgency of the position we are in re the climate crisis or what they
might be able to actually do about it if they wanted? ;-)
EVEN with 40+ years in IT, I still / regularly struggle with Apple UI's because they simply aren't intuitive (not all of it, or all of the time
'of course'), to me.
But it isn't *obviously* (I thought, given even if it was just you and
I, you obviously don't find any of it unintuitive?), a criticism of the entire OS, just those bits I find unintuitive / illogical and for
whatever reason?
You sell me your old car and after driving home I say 'Renaults are
weird with their controls aren't they ... how do you turn the fog light
on FFS?' because maybe *every* car I've ever driven before I have been
able to turn the fog light on without having to resort to the owners
manual or asking someone), I'm (obviously?) NOT dissing the whole car or Renault in general ... it's just a turn of phrase, a human response to
such things?
and would affect everyone, rather than you just having a specific
issue with something in the way it operates.
See above, plus, when I then hand Mums new iPhone to our daughter to
sort because I've given up with it and after trying for 10 minutes she
hands it back to be saying 'take this back before I throw it out the
window ...' ... and she normally sorts things on our phones, no matter
the model or make (outside of Apple), surely that must say something?
Should someone, generally competent with most forms of tech, be so
flummoxed by a user level phone?
(This is the 12 year old girl who when sat next to me in the AA truck on
our way back from Leek to London and offered her to program his GPS to
give her something to do ... had already finished before he had even
given her the first instruction. "How come we had to go on a days course
to do that ..." said the AA man ...) ;-)
Now I get it, you are probably like me, like most 'blokes' (especially
tekky blokes) where something presented as a problem is requesting an
answer / solution.
Her: "I really don't want to to to the party on Saturday ...'
Him: "Don't go then?"
Her: "Are you mental, of course I'm going ..."
I have learned that not all questions require or even have answers. ;-)
It's nothing new, it's been their policy since the first Mac came out
40 years ago.
I have seen the same thing on Windows where you generally had to roll
your sleeves up to do some stuff, to where it mostly worked but you
might need to lift the hood now and again, to now the hood is mostly
locked unless you can find the secret catch. ;-(
As a user that's now probably a good thing, as a geeky/nerd, not so.
<snip>
A. Have a look under Settings > General > [Some obscure heading] >
[Some obscure name] and make sure it's set to 98 PSI. ;-)
The point. The user was able to do what they wanted on another device
and didn't have to ask anywhere. Not because they had done it before,
or were particularly technical, just that it appeared to be logical
TO THEM (them, not you or anyone else). ;-)
That's just complete bollocks mate, sorry, but it is.
Erm. it's a statement of fact as I/we see it?
There's nothing obscure,
What! Have you ever actually looked at any of the posts here
unless the language settings of the device are incorrect! All settings
are in plain English (for a UK setup device).
Oh dear, what sh1tty stick have you picked up now ...? ;-(
I made AN ANALOGY of what I/we see in a hypthetical situation!!
Just because they're not in exactly the same place, or perhaps not
have exactly the same name, as another OS, does not make it unintuitive.
Of course not, but that wasn't the scenario. It was that we COULDN'T
MAKE SENSE of the options offered ... when we normally can. Now, I'm not saying that's your experience or the experience of most Apple users, I'm
just TELLING YOU how it often is for us.
You've chosen to use the alternative Android UI instead, which is
fine, not problem with that.
Well, I'm not sure you could say 'chosen' even when I don't really find
any Apple stuff a practical / workable alternative to Windows / Android. That's not my fault or really even Apples fault (directly), just market penetration and UI design.
You've got used to the way that works,
Of course.
and learnt it,
Not so much, these days, too much to 'learn' and so often have to
'explore' for most things (and where the intuitivity comes in).
and adapted to its changes over the years.
Some, but even those changes are generally explorable.
The iOS is 'different' to what you're used to. That's all.
Nope. If it was *just* different, you would have thought I/we would have found it more intuitive by now but we don't. Before you go off on one
again, not you, not anyone else, just us.
OK ...
I have no problem at all with change, but I do if that change is not
for the better,
Well, 'better' can be very subjective ...
or unnecessary.
In your opinion (of course).
Right, as an aside, this is how many fucks I give about:
(Best score=) ***************************************
Apple / OSX / iOS ***
Linux ***
Windows ****
Android ****
Animal rights ***********************************
Electronic projects *********************
Boating *****************
Motorcycling ****************
Driving *******
Survival of life on earth ************************************
Survival of the human race *
On 31/12/2022 09:15, RJH wrote:
<snip>
Well, it wasn't really 'a point' Rob because I've generally resignedThe point. The user was able to do what they wanted on another device
and didn't have to ask anywhere. Not because they had done it before, or >>>> were particularly technical, just that it appeared to be logical TO THEM >>>> (them, not you or anyone else). ;-)
Have you got an example of doing the same thing on both OSs, where it's pretty
much impenetrable on Mac OS/iOS, yet trivially easy on say Windows or Linux? >> (If that is indeed the point you're trying to make?).
myself to the fact that my mind doesn't work in a way that suits the
general Apple design (and Andy has already alluded to Apple stuff hiding
the technical stuff from users and making it 'just work' etc) but one practical example that I believe it was Andy who discounted (because he
has a way that suits him better, not addressing what I prefer) is the
ability to right click on the desktop and create say an empty text
document (for notes / saving codes etc).
Some Linux distros / DE's now don't have that by default but the feature
can be added (even by the likes of me with some Googling copy / pasting
CLI Gobbledegook).
The often asked one was the closing of the app with the last window etc,
but most of the recent frustration was from iPhones rather than desktop
OS's and where it was acknowledged that going from a physical home
button to a swipe wasn't ideal for all (like my 92 year old Mum or those
non Apple users trying to help her).
When the Mrs started using her Samsung Galaxy S8 along with my S7 that
she was more familiar (when I was driving mostly), at least it still had
a home button in the same place as my S7, even if it was only virtual.
Later Samsung models may have gone the way of the iPhone11 though.
[..]
Cheers. It's quite possible that 'UK Mac users' may not realise the
urgency of the position we are in re the climate crisis or what they
might be able to actually do about it if they wanted? ;-)
It's just about discussing the use of, purchasing, and general
discussion of using Macs. Doesn't need to be any more complicated than
that. The rest is for elsewhere. I do my own research, and rarely wish
to involve in all that in a public forum (aside from when I react, where
I shouldn't).
To me, it's akin to 'a bloke down the pub told me...'
Online, and especially social, media is full of fake news and
information, and there's stuff being published that's not always
verifiable. It's all too often misquoted anyway, so no, I don't always believe everything I read on the Internet.
I know enough to know that simply changing some of my diet does not necessarily translate into a planet saving option.
The working out of it
is not straight forward, due to the amount of misinformation, hidden information, and plain lies that are published.
[..]
EVEN with 40+ years in IT, I still / regularly struggle with Apple
UI's because they simply aren't intuitive (not all of it, or all of
the time 'of course'), to me.
Well, news for you, I find exactly the same scenario regarding Android
and Windows OSs, but you'll notice, that I don't mention it.
FWIW, I've used Windows variants since v3, and have never understood how
the hell such an awful UI ever got to be in such a dominating market position. But that's just IMHO.
[..]
But it isn't *obviously* (I thought, given even if it was just you and
I, you obviously don't find any of it unintuitive?), a criticism of
the entire OS, just those bits I find unintuitive / illogical and for
whatever reason?
Except that's not what you cite.
You sell me your old car and after driving home I say 'Renaults are
weird with their controls aren't they ... how do you turn the fog
light on FFS?' because maybe *every* car I've ever driven before I
have been able to turn the fog light on without having to resort to
the owners manual or asking someone), I'm (obviously?) NOT dissing the
whole car or Renault in general ... it's just a turn of phrase, a
human response to such things?
Not a very good analogy really.
For one, you have a legal obligation to understand all the safety
controls of a car *before* you drive,
even if that means reading the
owners manual (or asking the seller how it works).
Dealers actually have a legal obligation to make sure a new owner
understands how it all works before they drive away.
Understanding how an i-device works is just a personal matter.
and would affect everyone, rather than you just having a specific
issue with something in the way it operates.
See above, plus, when I then hand Mums new iPhone to our daughter to
sort because I've given up with it and after trying for 10 minutes she
hands it back to be saying 'take this back before I throw it out the
window ...' ... and she normally sorts things on our phones, no matter
the model or make (outside of Apple), surely that must say something?
I would say it does, but it might not be about the phone!
I have actually thrown a Windows PC out onto a patio.
Should someone, generally competent with most forms of tech, be so
flummoxed by a user level phone?
Would that prove any competence?
(This is the 12 year old girl who when sat next to me in the AA truck
on our way back from Leek to London and offered her to program his GPS
to give her something to do ... had already finished before he had
even given her the first instruction. "How come we had to go on a days
course to do that ..." said the AA man ...) ;-)
That's not saying anything, I have to go on days of training courses for refreshers on stuff I originally learnt in a few hours (fork lift truck, tele-handler, cherry picker, even manual handling these days).
And of course, there's the generational divide.
[..]
Now I get it, you are probably like me, like most 'blokes' (especially
tekky blokes) where something presented as a problem is requesting an
answer / solution.
Her: "I really don't want to to to the party on Saturday ...'
Him: "Don't go then?"
Her: "Are you mental, of course I'm going ..."
I have learned that not all questions require or even have answers. ;-)
Yeah, you're on a loser there. I can understand an ICE better than
female, that's for sure. ;-)
[..]
It's nothing new, it's been their policy since the first Mac came out
40 years ago.
I have seen the same thing on Windows where you generally had to roll
your sleeves up to do some stuff, to where it mostly worked but you
might need to lift the hood now and again, to now the hood is mostly
locked unless you can find the secret catch. ;-(
As a user that's now probably a good thing, as a geeky/nerd, not so.
That's why they're been in different market places, pretty much
throughout their entire respective histories. They're all different
business models.
Apple was never intended to appeal to the geeky/nerdy user, so in
reality, it's not a surprise it's not your cup of tea.
<snip>
A. Have a look under Settings > General > [Some obscure heading] >
[Some obscure name] and make sure it's set to 98 PSI. ;-)
The point. The user was able to do what they wanted on another
device and didn't have to ask anywhere. Not because they had done it
before, or were particularly technical, just that it appeared to be
logical TO THEM (them, not you or anyone else). ;-)
That's just complete bollocks mate, sorry, but it is.
Erm. it's a statement of fact as I/we see it?
Putting 'Some obscure...' is not stating any facts.
There's nothing obscure,
What! Have you ever actually looked at any of the posts here
Not all of them, I'm not that mad ;-)
unless the language settings of the device are incorrect! All
settings are in plain English (for a UK setup device).
Oh dear, what sh1tty stick have you picked up now ...? ;-(
I made AN ANALOGY of what I/we see in a hypthetical situation!!
So no facts then?
[..]
Just because they're not in exactly the same place, or perhaps not
have exactly the same name, as another OS, does not make it unintuitive.
Of course not, but that wasn't the scenario. It was that we COULDN'T
MAKE SENSE of the options offered ... when we normally can. Now, I'm
not saying that's your experience or the experience of most Apple
users, I'm just TELLING YOU how it often is for us.
So, it's just a matter of simply asking how to find that option. Once
found, problem solved.
[..]
You've chosen to use the alternative Android UI instead, which is
fine, not problem with that.
Well, I'm not sure you could say 'chosen' even when I don't really
find any Apple stuff a practical / workable alternative to Windows /
Android. That's not my fault or really even Apples fault (directly),
just market penetration and UI design.
You've got used to the way that works,
Of course.
and learnt it,
Not so much, these days, too much to 'learn' and so often have to
'explore' for most things (and where the intuitivity comes in).
Not really, you will have learnt, and gained experience of, the way
Android works, and over time your mindset will have adapted to the whole philosophy of the way that system works and feels.
I don't like Android mostly because of that too, I don't like the 'feel'
of it, or the philosophy of the way if does things (that is apart from
the aspects of security and privacy that have to be dealt with too).
and adapted to its changes over the years.
Some, but even those changes are generally explorable.
The iOS is 'different' to what you're used to. That's all.
Nope. If it was *just* different, you would have thought I/we would
have found it more intuitive by now but we don't. Before you go off on
one again, not you, not anyone else, just us.
Yup, just you, got it ;-).
OK ...
I have no problem at all with change, but I do if that change is not
for the better,
Well, 'better' can be very subjective ...
or unnecessary.
In your opinion (of course).
Not really, although IMHO, a usenet newsgroup basically does what it
says on the tin (according to how it was named).
Nothing needs changing,
unless you think anything named for a purpose can be arbitrarily
repurposed?
Well, it wasn't really 'a point' Rob because I've generally resigned
myself to the fact that my mind doesn't work in a way that suits the
general Apple design (and Andy has already alluded to Apple stuff hiding
the technical stuff from users and making it 'just work' etc) but one
practical example that I believe it was Andy who discounted (because he
has a way that suits him better, not addressing what I prefer) is the
ability to right click on the desktop and create say an empty text
document (for notes / saving codes etc).
Well, agreed - I use it every so often in Windows. If I was missing it I could
add a (paid) extension, but Cmd-spacebar type-the-app does me fine. The one thing I'd like to see changed to a more Windows approach is Finder - seems to take a lot longer to do most things.
Some Linux distros / DE's now don't have that by default but the feature
can be added (even by the likes of me with some Googling copy / pasting
CLI Gobbledegook).
The often asked one was the closing of the app with the last window etc,
Yes, I've followed that and it threw me at first, but I just let the OS handle
it most of the time. Every so often I'll run Quit All AppleScript out of habit.
but most of the recent frustration was from iPhones rather than desktop
OS's and where it was acknowledged that going from a physical home
button to a swipe wasn't ideal for all (like my 92 year old Mum or those
non Apple users trying to help her).
Yes, I do like the physical buttons but have adjusted reasonably well to swiping.
There are always older iphones and ipads I suppose.
When the Mrs started using her Samsung Galaxy S8 along with my S7 that
she was more familiar (when I was driving mostly), at least it still had
a home button in the same place as my S7, even if it was only virtual.
Later Samsung models may have gone the way of the iPhone11 though.
Not sure. A pal has just bought a Samsung A04s - looks to be a lot of hardware
for the money.
Replaced a 10 year old Nokia. He's in his mid-70s and a
near-violent technophobe
(I was amazed he chose that phone) and seems to be
getting on OK with it.
Horses and courses maybe.
I really like Apple hardware.
And, as it happens, I
like Apple software overall - mainly because it doesn't seem to get in the way
of what I want to do, and is pretty reliable.
That said, I've no problem with
Windows - I just choose apple most of the time.
On 31/12/2022 14:00, Andy Hewitt wrote:
<snip>
[..]
Cheers. It's quite possible that 'UK Mac users' may not realise the
urgency of the position we are in re the climate crisis or what they
might be able to actually do about it if they wanted? ;-)
It's just about discussing the use of, purchasing, and general
discussion of using Macs. Doesn't need to be any more complicated than
that. The rest is for elsewhere. I do my own research, and rarely wish
to involve in all that in a public forum (aside from when I react,
where I shouldn't).
To me, it's akin to 'a bloke down the pub told me...'
And this is the worry, that you might consider something *I* said on the subject like that? If you told me something about say potatoes (as you mentioned they are part of your current role) that I had some options on
and that may then help an animal, human or the environment, I'd consider
it very seriously. If you aren't talking about me or anyone else you
have no reason to distrust then fair enough. ;-)
Online, and especially social, media is full of fake news and
information, and there's stuff being published that's not always
verifiable. It's all too often misquoted anyway, so no, I don't always
believe everything I read on the Internet.
Of course not, but see above.
See, we (vegans) are used to this because we are aware that 'most
people' really don't have a clue about most of what happens behind the
scenes re animal agriculture. I know because not only have I seen it
many times with my own eyes but because that's where I was 3 years ago.
Also, I'm hardly the sort of person to do *anything* without loads of research and so the chances are, if I'm doing anything I've looked into
it. This is reflected by *everyone* doing any street activism is we here
the same old questions over and over.
"Where do you get your protein from?" (when not a single person so far
knew how much protein they eat or should eat every day).
"We would be overrun with animals" (like we would need to let all the
farm animals loose, like they wouldn't all be dead in a few months in
any case).
"Eating eggs doesn't harm an animal", when 50% of all the egg laying
chicks born get ground up or gassed after day 1 (so *millions* every
year) and then the hens are slaughtered at 18 months if they are
unfortunate to last that long. Or all the calves from dairy cows that
are slaughtered at birth so we can drink the milk meant for them etc.
I know enough to know that simply changing some of my diet does not
necessarily translate into a planet saving option.
You individually? No, of course not. Enough of us, 'of course' and meat,
egg and dairy industries are already struggling, partly because of how
many people *are* doing just that.
The working out of it is not straight forward, due to the amount of
misinformation, hidden information, and plain lies that are published.
Of course .... but what of all the current science that pretty well
states as one that 'We need to move towards a plant based diet' or 'Our current meat production levels aren't sustainable' or 'The meat industry
is destroying habitat and the environment around the world'?
These are the things you can see on *every* TV program on the
environment. But I can also see if you didn't think you could play an important part in the process why you wouldn't take much notice of any
of it. Like the film 'Don't look up'.
unless you think anything named for a purpose can be arbitrarily
repurposed?
We are still talking about generic usenet here right?
Not the content of a particular NG?
If the latter then no, other that to include any
evolution of the subject etc (like iPads didn't exist when the NG was
first created).
I don't mistrust the people (or you) per se, just the information that's being relayed.
See, we (vegans) are used to this because we are aware that 'most
people' really don't have a clue about most of what happens behind the
scenes re animal agriculture. I know because not only have I seen it
many times with my own eyes but because that's where I was 3 years ago.
I'm certainly not without a clue, I haven't done research for sure, but
I'm not ignorant of the fact that something is happening.
Also, I'm hardly the sort of person to do *anything* without loads of
research and so the chances are, if I'm doing anything I've looked
into it. This is reflected by *everyone* doing any street activism is
we here the same old questions over and over.
I still think you might be searching for certain information, and coming
up with the information you want to hear about.
"Where do you get your protein from?" (when not a single person so far
knew how much protein they eat or should eat every day).
According to an article I just looked at, it was about 0.8% of bodymass
per day, but seems they suggest 1.2-1.5% now (about a gram for every
kilo of bodyweight, depending what you believe).
It's also clear, from reading stuff, that a vegan diet is not clearly a healthier option.
It's extremely difficult to obtain all the nutrients a
body needs to remain healthy, which I have already mentioned.
There's also the vegan processed foods, which many will be using for convenience,
or as meat substitutes (I never have got that one).
They
are filled with all sorts of unhealthy crap (like loads of salt and
sugar), and often can have worse health detriments than processed meat products.
"We would be overrun with animals" (like we would need to let all the
farm animals loose, like they wouldn't all be dead in a few months in
any case).
I certainly haven't believed that, of course if anything happened, at
all, it would be a phased change over time.
"Eating eggs doesn't harm an animal", when 50% of all the egg laying
chicks born get ground up or gassed after day 1 (so *millions* every
year) and then the hens are slaughtered at 18 months if they are
unfortunate to last that long. Or all the calves from dairy cows that
are slaughtered at birth so we can drink the milk meant for them etc.
Of course animal welfare is an issue, but it still could be a different
issue to using animals for food.
Of course I appreciate you have a
personal choice to not eat an animal anyway.
I know enough to know that simply changing some of my diet does not
necessarily translate into a planet saving option.
You individually? No, of course not. Enough of us, 'of course' and
meat, egg and dairy industries are already struggling, partly because
of how many people *are* doing just that.
Of course it's possible,
but you (collective you, not you as an
individual) *really* have to work out out well.
The stuff I read is also
showing that there a lot of vegans re-introducing meat, or at least meat products, into their diets (the ones that aren't vegan for animal
welfare reasons anyway), simply because their health is suffering, and
they are finding it far too difficult to create a fully vegan diet that fulfils all dietary needs.
The working out of it is not straight forward, due to the amount of
misinformation, hidden information, and plain lies that are published.
Of course .... but what of all the current science that pretty well
states as one that 'We need to move towards a plant based diet' or
'Our current meat production levels aren't sustainable' or 'The meat
industry is destroying habitat and the environment around the world'?
I disagree, and I've read some stuff that backs that up too (sorry I
didn't get the links).
One article has found that a huge problem is loss of nutritional crops because of the loss of pollinating creatures.
The single biggest cause
being the production of agricultural crops.
They do not preserve local
bio diversity enough to sustain the creatures it relies on to grow in
the first place.
I've already mentioned the vast areas of forests that are being wiped
out to grow palm oil. That's been shown dramatically on TV quite recently.
These are the things you can see on *every* TV program on the
environment. But I can also see if you didn't think you could play an
important part in the process why you wouldn't take much notice of any
of it. Like the film 'Don't look up'.
Much of what I've seen on TV is showing what I mentioned above, the
wiping out of vast areas of natural habitat to grow 'sustainable' crops.
I do think that the arguments for sustainability are flawed, and much
more work needs to be done there to clarify everything we do (carbon
miles for transporting stuff, loss of habitats, heating hothouses, manufacture of artificial substitutes etc), before we all start jumping
on any band-wagons.
So, although I feel no reason to justify my choices, there it is. I'm
only attempting to show you that I have considered these things more
than you think I have,
and I'm not arguing that you shouldn't be vegan
or anything,
it's your choice and right to do so,
and I appreciate the
family history for it (and certainly pass my sympathies to you).
I certainly have no guilt, as you have suggested might be the case, that would only be based on your point of view.
On 01/01/2023 09:57, Andy Hewitt wrote:
<snip>
On 30/12/2022 21:17, Chris wrote:
T i m <[email protected]> wrote:
On 30/12/2022 18:01, Chris wrote:
T i m <[email protected]> wrote:
On 30/12/2022 11:37, Chris wrote:
So yopu can either just carry on with them or do something about it. >>>>>>>
I now know how heavy my cognitive dissonance (the mental gymnastics we >>>>>>> have to go though trying to carry two conflicting ideal in our heads at >>>>>>> the same time, like 'love animals' / 'kill animals'.
Most people are rational without having to resort to extremist sentiment.
No they aren't.
Are you some sort of caricature?
Are you some sort of troll?
You're projecting, again.
Laugh, I thought my trousers would never dry.
Daughter has manned several vegan activist 'Cubes' and most people
seeing std practice UK slaughterhouse footage flinch and look away.
Nice anecdote.
But true though and a shame the best you could come back with.
I didn't say it wasn't true <sigh>.
I didn't say you said it wasn't. You really don't get all this nuance
stuff do you? ;-(
People also flinch when watching
footage of human surgery.
What, people pay to make that happen to people that don't want it and
that normally ends up with them dying?
Let's ban operations too, eh?
Yeah, nice strawman troll.
See, it's not what's happening that is the point it's why.
Massive difference between something some might consider 'gory' (like
someone having elective surgery) and the comparison you should have made
(if you weren't continuing to be dishonest) like a human beheading or stabbing of innocent people.
Rarely does cutting an animals throat make it 'well' or it volunteer for
the process.
Ah, the sub thread you oped out of when you snipped it all. NiceWhat
they are clearly demonstrating is 'extremist sentiment' or I'm guessing >>>>> they could carry on watching it (whilst still eating their burger)?
Does your daughter then call them nazis, which is what I was referring to? >>>
strawman Chris.
Argumentation isn't your strong point is it? Referring to an actual event - >> which you were involved in - is not a strawman. I snipped because once you >> invoke Godwin's Law everything you say in your argument is invalidated.
Nope, you snipped it because it was easier for you than trying to answer
the point. And that was, even someone who wasn't involved physically but
was complicit in a holocaust has been judged to be so many many years
later. She also probably she thought she was just doing what needed to
be done as well. ;-(
<snip>
Here, you'll love this Chris:
https://www.poultryworld.net/health-nutrition/keel-bone-research-gets-a-major-financial-boost/
So, rather than ban the cruel exploitation of the egg industry, they
give a Uni some money to look into why most egg laying chickens have got broken breastbones (due to calcium loss due to being crossbred to
produce an unnatural number of eggs over their short lives (18 months
not 7-10 years)).
I feel like at least one of you is a chatbout (not sure which one, maybe both)
Happy new year to you all :-)
The next thing I hope disappears is the single use, resource wasting, polluting, dangerous, frightening (people, pets, wildlife and livestock) fireworks. Selling explosives to the general public and whilst we are in
the midst of a climate crisis? We are back to the world that people want
to save and the different world they seem to live in where everything
can carry on as usual?
Many places have stopped selling fireworks, or only sell silent ones but
if 80 Billion people set off one rocket per year, I wonder how many
carbon capturing trees would have to be cut town to make the sticks, the cardboard tube, the paper wrap / fuse, the gunpowder (charcoal), only to
have most of it dumped into the environment after it's single use? ;-(
I feel like at least one of you is a chatbout (not sure which one, maybe both)
Happy new year to you all :-)
On 2023-01-02 08:36:12 +0000, Bernd Froehlich <[email protected]> said:
I feel like at least one of you is a chatbout (not sure which one, maybe
both)
Happy new year to you all :-)
There's definitley at least one autobot thingy on the loose here! HNY!
On 02/01/2023 17:09, Mark wrote:
On 2023-01-02 08:36:12 +0000, Bernd Froehlich <[email protected]> said:
I feel like at least one of you is a chatbout (not sure which one, maybe >>> both)
Happy new year to you all :-)
There's definitley at least one autobot thingy on the loose here! HNY!
<waves>
The following is why veganism (aka animal rights) isn't just about who
we don't eat ...
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jan/02/animal-welfare-advocates-call-for-racing-ban-after-horse-dies-at-perth-cup
Cheers, T i m
On 02/01/2023 17:09, Mark wrote:
On 2023-01-02 08:36:12 +0000, Bernd Froehlich <[email protected]> said:
I feel like at least one of you is a chatbout (not sure which one, maybe >>> both)
Happy new year to you all :-)
There's definitley at least one autobot thingy on the loose here! HNY!
<waves>
The following is why veganism (aka animal rights) isn't just about who
we don't eat ...
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jan/02/animal-welfare-advocates-call-for-racing-ban-after-horse-dies-at-perth-cup
Cheers, T i m
On 03/01/2023 08:36, David Brooks wrote:
<snip>
The following is why veganism (aka animal rights) isn't just about
who we don't eat ...
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jan/02/animal-welfare-advocates-call-for-racing-ban-after-horse-dies-at-perth-cup
I respect your dedication to your cause.
It's not really 'a cause' it's our survival and what's morally right
(and what most people support, but not with their actions) and it isn't difficult if you *actually* care about the other species we share this
rock with and rely on for our own existence.
You have made me do much thinking, T i m.
Well that's the idea. Few people who have done something all their lives
and haven't really ever thought why are going to change just like that, especially when they previously thought what they were doing was ok.
And the thing is, from a sustainability POV, it might have been ok
(ignoring the animal rights) previously.
Like, just 400 years ago the world population was just over 400 Million.
400 years later there are 8 *Billion*. What might have been viable for
400M might not (is not) for a number 16x greater, so we have to change.
May I ask what you know about this? https://twitter.com/AiroSecurityI don't use a Mac now so can't really help you on that.
The following is why veganism (aka animal rights) isn't just about who
we don't eat ...
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jan/02/animal-welfare-advocates-call-for-racing-ban-after-horse-dies-at-perth-cup
I respect your dedication to your cause.
You have made me do much
thinking, T i m.
May I ask what you know about this? https://twitter.com/AiroSecurity
The following is why veganism (aka animal rights) isn't just about who
we don't eat ...
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jan/02/animal-welfare-advocates-call-for-racing-ban-after-horse-dies-at-perth-cup
Cheers, T i m
PLONK
And the thing is, from a sustainability POV, it might have been ok
(ignoring the animal rights) previously.
Like, just 400 years ago the world population was just over 400
Million. 400 years later there are 8 *Billion*. What might have been
viable for 400M might not (is not) for a number 16x greater, so we
have to change.
It may be something else which is part of Gods plan.
May I ask what you know about this? https://twitter.com/AiroSecurityI don't use a Mac now so can't really help you on that.
You can, if you will, explore the Airo product and links.
Have you time to spare to do that?
On 03/01/2023 10:25, T i m wrote:
On 03/01/2023 08:36, David Brooks wrote:
<snip>
The following is why veganism (aka animal rights) isn't just about
who we don't eat ...
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jan/02/animal-welfare-advocates-call-for-racing-ban-after-horse-dies-at-perth-cup
I respect your dedication to your cause.
It's not really 'a cause' it's our survival and what's morally right
(and what most people support, but not with their actions) and it isn't difficult if you *actually* care about the other species we share this
rock with and rely on for our own existence.
You have made me do much thinking, T i m.
Well that's the idea. Few people who have done something all their lives and haven't really ever thought why are going to change just like that, especially when they previously thought what they were doing was ok.Agreed.
And the thing is, from a sustainability POV, it might have been ok (ignoring the animal rights) previously.
Like, just 400 years ago the world population was just over 400 Million. 400 years later there are 8 *Billion*. What might have been viable forIt may be something else which is part of Gods plan.
400M might not (is not) for a number 16x greater, so we have to change.
On Tuesday, 3 January 2023 at 11:10:33 UTC, David Brooks wrote:
On 03/01/2023 10:25, T i m wrote:
On 03/01/2023 08:36, David Brooks wrote:Agreed.
<snip>
The following is why veganism (aka animal rights) isn't just about
who we don't eat ...
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jan/02/animal-welfare-advocates-call-for-racing-ban-after-horse-dies-at-perth-cup
I respect your dedication to your cause.
It's not really 'a cause' it's our survival and what's morally right
(and what most people support, but not with their actions) and it isn't
difficult if you *actually* care about the other species we share this
rock with and rely on for our own existence.
You have made me do much thinking, T i m.
Well that's the idea. Few people who have done something all their lives >>> and haven't really ever thought why are going to change just like that,
especially when they previously thought what they were doing was ok.
And the thing is, from a sustainability POV, it might have been okIt may be something else which is part of Gods plan.
(ignoring the animal rights) previously.
Like, just 400 years ago the world population was just over 400 Million. >>> 400 years later there are 8 *Billion*. What might have been viable for
400M might not (is not) for a number 16x greater, so we have to change.
Lets see how did this plan come about.
He created Man and women with original sin.
Then he killed virtually all of then vian a flood for sinning.
Then got a woman pregnant, so he could be born again.
Then he killed that person as a sacrifice to save everyone from sin, that he had actually given this sin
to everyone in the first place.
That's some plan .
Wonder what he has planned next for 2023 :-D
Lets see how did this plan come about.
On 03/01/2023 13:17, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 3 January 2023 at 11:10:33 UTC, David Brooks wrote:
On 03/01/2023 10:25, T i m wrote:
On 03/01/2023 08:36, David Brooks wrote:Agreed.
<snip>
The following is why veganism (aka animal rights) isn't just about >>>>> who we don't eat ...
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jan/02/animal-welfare-advocates-call-for-racing-ban-after-horse-dies-at-perth-cup
I respect your dedication to your cause.
It's not really 'a cause' it's our survival and what's morally right
(and what most people support, but not with their actions) and it isn't >>> difficult if you *actually* care about the other species we share this >>> rock with and rely on for our own existence.
You have made me do much thinking, T i m.
Well that's the idea. Few people who have done something all their lives >>> and haven't really ever thought why are going to change just like that, >>> especially when they previously thought what they were doing was ok.
And the thing is, from a sustainability POV, it might have been ok
(ignoring the animal rights) previously.
Like, just 400 years ago the world population was just over 400 Million. >>> 400 years later there are 8 *Billion*. What might have been viable for >>> 400M might not (is not) for a number 16x greater, so we have to change. >> It may be something else which is part of Gods plan.
Lets see how did this plan come about.
He created Man and women with original sin.
Then he killed virtually all of then vian a flood for sinning.
Then got a woman pregnant, so he could be born again.
Then he killed that person as a sacrifice to save everyone from sin, that he had actually given this sin
to everyone in the first place.
That's some plan .
Wonder what he has planned next for 2023 :-DYou are a card, young 'whisky-dave'! :-D
Hit the nail on the head each and every time.
Can you get to here?
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/254510004?answerId=258428839022&replyId=258428839022&cid=em-com-apple_watches_email_thread_owner-go_to_the_discussion-en-us-11192020#258428839022&replyid=258428839022
--
Hope you had a great Christmas break!
Warm regards,
David
On 03/01/2023 13:17, whisky-dave wrote:
<snip>
Lets see how did this plan come about.
<snip>
Ricky Gervais: "Science is constantly proved all the time. You see, if
we take something like any fiction, any holy book, and destroyed it, in
a thousand years’ time, that wouldn’t come back just as it was. Whereas if we took every science book, and every fact, and destroyed them all,
in a thousand years they’d all be back, because all the same tests would produce the same result!"
Cheers, T i m
Hope you had a great Christmas break!
Away from the students of course I did.
Talking to squirrels and magpies was much more rewarding .
:-)
On Tuesday, 3 January 2023 at 15:05:55 UTC, T i m wrote:
On 03/01/2023 13:17, whisky-dave wrote:
<snip>
Lets see how did this plan come about.<snip>
Ricky Gervais: "Science is constantly proved all the time. You see, if
we take something like any fiction, any holy book, and destroyed it, in
a thousand years’ time, that wouldn’t come back just as it was. Whereas >> if we took every science book, and every fact, and destroyed them all,
in a thousand years they’d all be back, because all the same tests would >> produce the same result!"
That also depends oninterpreter and the interpretation of the results.
------------
I do like Ricky Gervais but I was never a fan of The Office
On 05/01/2023 13:30, whisky-dave wrote:
<snip>
Hope you had a great Christmas break!
Away from the students of course I did.Yup, 'people'. ;-(
Talking to squirrels and magpies was much more rewarding .Of course it was, sentient, intelligent, resourceful and don't have
:-)
moral agency so can't disappoint on those lines. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
Well I guess the magpies stealing the nuts from my squirrel feeder is OK.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx9Hc0HcTPs
But when they always try to take two monkey nuts for a takeaway and that's just being greedy :-)
https://youtu.be/R6KbgLmDqaU
On Thursday, 5 January 2023 at 14:11:07 UTC, T i m wrote:
On 05/01/2023 13:30, whisky-dave wrote:
<snip>
Yup, 'people'. ;-(Hope you had a great Christmas break!
Away from the students of course I did.
Talking to squirrels and magpies was much more rewarding .Of course it was, sentient, intelligent, resourceful and don't have
:-)
moral agency so can't disappoint on those lines. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
Well I guess the magpies stealing the nuts from my squirrel feeder is OK. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx9Hc0HcTPs
But when they always try to take two monkey nuts for a takeaway and that's just being greedy :-)
https://youtu.be/R6KbgLmDqaU
On 05/01/2023 16:38, whisky-dave wrote:
<snip>
Well I guess the magpies stealing the nuts from my squirrel feeder is OK.Of course it is as I see no sign saying 'Squirrels only'. ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx9Hc0HcTPs
But when they always try to take two monkey nuts for a takeaway and that's just being greedy :-)
https://youtu.be/R6KbgLmDqaU
More like being resourceful / opportunistic. ;-)
Most chickens on farms (= industrial mass production facilitates)
couldn't do that because they get the ends of their beaks trimmed off to reduce the damage when they peck each other because of the mental stress
they are under ('pecking order' only works in a flock of 100, not 30,000).
I wonder how they 'humanely cull' (= painfully kill) 30,000 chickens at
time because of avian flu compared with how they do it 'normally'?
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/dec/09/avian-flu-has-led-to-the-killing-of-140m-farmed-birds-since-last-october
'Of course', with a JCB, a skip and gas ...
https://www.norfolk.gov.uk/business/trading-standards/advice-for-businesses/avian-flu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0pvR92XT30
Hopefully a zoonotic pandemic will wipe out the human race before we
wipe out everything.
Cheers, T i m
On Thursday, 5 January 2023 at 19:59:56 UTC, T i m wrote:
On 05/01/2023 16:38, whisky-dave wrote:
<snip>
Well I guess the magpies stealing the nuts from my squirrel feeder is OK. >> Of course it is as I see no sign saying 'Squirrels only'. ;-)
Maybe I'll make one :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx9Hc0HcTPsMore like being resourceful / opportunistic. ;-)
But when they always try to take two monkey nuts for a takeaway and that's just being greedy :-)
https://youtu.be/R6KbgLmDqaU
Or inteligence is advantagous, the way they'll grab one and attempt another then drop the first one
and try again.
Most chickens on farms (= industrial mass production facilitates)
couldn't do that because they get the ends of their beaks trimmed off to
reduce the damage when they peck each other because of the mental stress
they are under ('pecking order' only works in a flock of 100, not 30,000).
Have you ever seen those red chicken sunglasses you could buy for chikens in the 1920-30s or there abouts.
Sort of ammusing in a funny sort of way.
I wonder how they 'humanely cull' (= painfully kill) 30,000 chickens at
time because of avian flu compared with how they do it 'normally'?
It's one of the reasons why true vegans (rather than the trendy ones) won't eat at McD's even if they have a vegan burger offering,
it's the way the company operates regarding animal walfare , rather than just the products they sell.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/dec/09/avian-flu-has-led-to-the-killing-of-140m-farmed-birds-since-last-october
'Of course', with a JCB, a skip and gas ...
https://www.norfolk.gov.uk/business/trading-standards/advice-for-businesses/avian-flu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0pvR92XT30
Hopefully a zoonotic pandemic will wipe out the human race before we
wipe out everything.
You'll have to have a word with God about that he apparently has 'plans' :-0
On 06/01/2023 10:02, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 5 January 2023 at 19:59:56 UTC, T i m wrote:
On 05/01/2023 16:38, whisky-dave wrote:
<snip>
Well I guess the magpies stealing the nuts from my squirrel feeder is OK. >> Of course it is as I see no sign saying 'Squirrels only'. ;-)
Maybe I'll make one :-)I wonder if you could make a feeder that squirrels could access but
magpies not, given how intelligent they both are?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx9Hc0HcTPsMore like being resourceful / opportunistic. ;-)
But when they always try to take two monkey nuts for a takeaway and that's just being greedy :-)
https://youtu.be/R6KbgLmDqaU
Or inteligence is advantagous, the way they'll grab one and attempt another then drop the first oneSome birds have worked out when to drop nuts they can't easily crack on
and try again.
the road near some traffic lights so the cars drive over the nuts but
are often stopped making it safer to collect the results. ;-)
Most chickens on farms (= industrial mass production facilitates)
couldn't do that because they get the ends of their beaks trimmed off to >> reduce the damage when they peck each other because of the mental stress >> they are under ('pecking order' only works in a flock of 100, not 30,000).
Have you ever seen those red chicken sunglasses you could buy for chikens in the 1920-30s or there abouts.Erm, no, I can't say I have as I wouldn't be in the market fort any. ;-)
Sort of ammusing in a funny sort of way.
I didn't realise that chickens bread for meat but keep 'free' in a large building stay in their own mess for their entire (short) lives.
Apparently the fumes build up over the period and workers have to wear breathing apparatus when they go in towards the end. They could have
made masks for the chickens to go with the goggles. ;-)
I wonder how they 'humanely cull' (= painfully kill) 30,000 chickens at
time because of avian flu compared with how they do it 'normally'?
It's one of the reasons why true vegans (rather than the trendy ones) won't eat at McD's even if they have a vegan burger offering,It's true there are some vegans that think that way but we are real /
it's the way the company operates regarding animal walfare , rather than just the products they sell.
ethical vegans and don't.
Whilst 'of course' we don't want to support anyone who causes animals to suffer and die unnecessarily, given few of these companies will be
offering vegan options for ethical reasons (rather than increased
profit), how will we get them to offer and hopefully expand their
cruelty free foods if people don't buy them?
So yes, if there was a McD's and a 100% vegan food shop side by side,
you would go for the vegan one. But given that's still not that common,
the next best thing is to at least buy the vegan offerings from the bad
place (or go hungry etc).
The second thing is that it also can be handy socially. You go to McD's
with your non vegan friends and 1) you can eat something and 2) they
might be willing to try the same and the chances are, would be equally satisfied. This then also open up the opportunity for them to consider
their choices outside of McD'. Thre point there is unless people happen
to know someone who has made such choices, they would be unlikely to
consider them themselves (all the big meat marketing and their lifelong indoctrination).
I think I saw somewhere that McD are offering a 'Double McPlant' for Veganuary.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/dec/09/avian-flu-has-led-to-the-killing-of-140m-farmed-birds-since-last-october
'Of course', with a JCB, a skip and gas ...
https://www.norfolk.gov.uk/business/trading-standards/advice-for-businesses/avian-flu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0pvR92XT30
Hopefully a zoonotic pandemic will wipe out the human race before we
wipe out everything.
You'll have to have a word with God about that he apparently has 'plans' :-0Unfortunately I don't have a communication path with him/her or I could
ask what the plan is.
I watched a batch of animated videos on Youtube like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oakWgLqCwUc
and the same people did this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6fcK_fRYaI
I wasn't sure if it was covering what a particular religious group
'believed' etc?
Cheers, T i m
p.s. I took a cool from my mates son last night. He was in tears as his
Dad (my friend for 50 years) had just died of a heart attack and with
heart disease. He was a big meat eater and we know there are strong
links between the consumption of meat (especially reds / processed) and
such risks. ;-(
Some birds have worked out when to drop nuts they can't easily crack on
the road near some traffic lights so the cars drive over the nuts but
are often stopped making it safer to collect the results. ;-)
Yes I've heard of that.
One thing I heard about was that a 'species' of bird has been changing the colour of it's eggs
from a blue to a red colour as cuckoos can't mimick blue eggs which means that the cuckoo
stops laying it's eggs in their nests.
Well some vintage ones were found in a storage locker https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFyLKZO-GM4
Why do chickens wear rose-colored glasses?
Did you know National Band & Tag used to manufacture rose-colored Chicken Glasses to help stop chickens from pecking at each other?
The sight of blood intensified the pecking instinct in chickens, so the rose-colored lenses made the red disappear, thus reducing cannibalism.
I didn't realise that chickens bread for meat but keep 'free' in a large
building stay in their own mess for their entire (short) lives.
Apparently the fumes build up over the period and workers have to wear
breathing apparatus when they go in towards the end. They could have
made masks for the chickens to go with the goggles. ;-)
This time next year you could be a millionaire :-)
It's true there are some vegans that think that way but we are real /
I wonder how they 'humanely cull' (= painfully kill) 30,000 chickens at >>>> time because of avian flu compared with how they do it 'normally'?
It's one of the reasons why true vegans (rather than the trendy ones) won't eat at McD's even if they have a vegan burger offering,
it's the way the company operates regarding animal walfare , rather than just the products they sell.
ethical vegans and don't.
It's not ethical to support a company that mistreats animals .
McDs are better as regards an ethical company than they were in the 80s.
I'm betting I know more vegitarians and vegans than you do
and they will not go into McDs
Whilst 'of course' we don't want to support anyone who causes animals to
suffer and die unnecessarily, given few of these companies will be
offering vegan options for ethical reasons (rather than increased
profit), how will we get them to offer and hopefully expand their
cruelty free foods if people don't buy them?
Same way people decide on whether they support any business.
So yes, if there was a McD's and a 100% vegan food shop side by side,
you would go for the vegan one. But given that's still not that common,
the next best thing is to at least buy the vegan offerings from the bad
place (or go hungry etc).
Yep same with voting.
The second thing is that it also can be handy socially. You go to McD's
with your non vegan friends and 1) you can eat something and 2) they
might be willing to try the same and the chances are, would be equally
satisfied. This then also open up the opportunity for them to consider
their choices outside of McD'. Thre point there is unless people happen
to know someone who has made such choices, they would be unlikely to
consider them themselves (all the big meat marketing and their lifelong
indoctrination).
I think I saw somewhere that McD are offering a 'Double McPlant' for
Veganuary.
Even if Hitler offered me 1/2 price whisky I still wouldn't buy it from him.
Unfortunately I don't have a communication path with him/her or I couldhttps://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/dec/09/avian-flu-has-led-to-the-killing-of-140m-farmed-birds-since-last-october
'Of course', with a JCB, a skip and gas ...
https://www.norfolk.gov.uk/business/trading-standards/advice-for-businesses/avian-flu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0pvR92XT30
Hopefully a zoonotic pandemic will wipe out the human race before we
wipe out everything.
You'll have to have a word with God about that he apparently has 'plans' :-0
ask what the plan is.
Me niether but there's quite a few million or more that do have contact with him according to them that is.
I watched a batch of animated videos on Youtube like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oakWgLqCwUc
that started scary, with a DFS sale on , whatever next !
and the same people did this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6fcK_fRYaI
I wasn't sure if it was covering what a particular religious group
'believed' etc?
Note sure, but I was hoping that after the egg the chicken song would start , that's real culture
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccM4wVgZN9o
Cheers, T i m
p.s. I took a cool from my mates son last night. He was in tears as his
Dad (my friend for 50 years) had just died of a heart attack and with
heart disease. He was a big meat eater and we know there are strong
links between the consumption of meat (especially reds / processed) and
such risks. ;-(
I think most people die of something.
Some say it's better to burn out than fade away.
On 06/01/2023 15:10, whisky-dave wrote:
<snip>
Some birds have worked out when to drop nuts they can't easily crack on
the road near some traffic lights so the cars drive over the nuts but
are often stopped making it safer to collect the results. ;-)
Yes I've heard of that.Clever eh.
One thing I heard about was that a 'species' of bird has been changing the colour of it's eggs
from a blue to a red colour as cuckoos can't mimick blue eggs which means that the cuckoo
stops laying it's eggs in their nests.
<snip>
Well some vintage ones were found in a storage locker https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFyLKZO-GM4Hehe.
Why do chickens wear rose-colored glasses?Cannibalism because they couldn't get away from each other no doubt. ;-(
Did you know National Band & Tag used to manufacture rose-colored Chicken Glasses to help stop chickens from pecking at each other?
The sight of blood intensified the pecking instinct in chickens, so the rose-colored lenses made the red disappear, thus reducing cannibalism.
I didn't realise that chickens bread for meat but keep 'free' in a large >> building stay in their own mess for their entire (short) lives.
Apparently the fumes build up over the period and workers have to wear
breathing apparatus when they go in towards the end. They could have
made masks for the chickens to go with the goggles. ;-)
This time next year you could be a millionaire :-)This time next year there won't be any mass chicken exploitation here if avian flu is still about. ;-(
It's true there are some vegans that think that way but we are real /I wonder how they 'humanely cull' (= painfully kill) 30,000 chickens at >>>> time because of avian flu compared with how they do it 'normally'?
It's one of the reasons why true vegans (rather than the trendy ones) won't eat at McD's even if they have a vegan burger offering,
it's the way the company operates regarding animal walfare , rather than just the products they sell.
ethical vegans and don't.
It's not ethical to support a company that mistreats animals .It can be (see above). Throwing the baby out with the bathwater ...
McDs are better as regards an ethical company than they were in the 80s.Sure, many animal exploiting Co's are because many humans are still
evolving. Sea creatures like octopi,
crab and lobster now being granted
with sentience so have to be killed before being boiled alive (took them
long enough to get there mind).
I'm betting I know more vegitarians and vegans than you doIn person possibly. Overall (unless you partake of vegan forums) I doubt it.
and they will not go into McDsBut many will (for the perfectly logical reasons I posted previously) so
I'm not sure what your point is?
I along with many will also buy vegan products from companies who also
do animal based products where there could be cross contamination or the conveyors are lubricated with grease made using animal products.
If we don't allow for some level of compromise for people to transition
no company is likely to bother supporting vegan (as opposed to plant
based) products. A cafe stars offering a vegan option, sees there is
demand (because people, inc vegans choose such) and so expand their
range, possibly eventually becoming 100% vegan. This would be far less
likely to happen, if the customers hadn't supported them. YMMV.
Whilst 'of course' we don't want to support anyone who causes animals to >> suffer and die unnecessarily, given few of these companies will be
offering vegan options for ethical reasons (rather than increased
profit), how will we get them to offer and hopefully expand their
cruelty free foods if people don't buy them?
Same way people decide on whether they support any business.Quite ... and hence why many vegans will go to McD's.
So yes, if there was a McD's and a 100% vegan food shop side by side,
you would go for the vegan one. But given that's still not that common,
the next best thing is to at least buy the vegan offerings from the bad
place (or go hungry etc).
Yep same with voting.Yup. Sometimes you don't get utopia so you have to compromise.
The second thing is that it also can be handy socially. You go to McD's
with your non vegan friends and 1) you can eat something and 2) they
might be willing to try the same and the chances are, would be equally
satisfied. This then also open up the opportunity for them to consider
their choices outside of McD'. Thre point there is unless people happen
to know someone who has made such choices, they would be unlikely to
consider them themselves (all the big meat marketing and their lifelong
indoctrination).
I think I saw somewhere that McD are offering a 'Double McPlant' for
Veganuary.
Even if Hitler offered me 1/2 price whisky I still wouldn't buy it from him.Nor would I (I don't drink spirits) but my comment was nothing to do
with money (as I assumed it would be more expensive anyway) but
something much deeper.
What if sharing a Scotch with Hitler meant he then didn't kill as many
people and with the thought that might reduce to zero, given no
alternative pathways?
There are millions of instances throughout history where lives have been saved or improved by some level of compromise.
Unfortunately I don't have a communication path with him/her or I couldhttps://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/dec/09/avian-flu-has-led-to-the-killing-of-140m-farmed-birds-since-last-october
'Of course', with a JCB, a skip and gas ...
https://www.norfolk.gov.uk/business/trading-standards/advice-for-businesses/avian-flu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0pvR92XT30
Hopefully a zoonotic pandemic will wipe out the human race before we >>>> wipe out everything.
You'll have to have a word with God about that he apparently has 'plans' :-0
ask what the plan is.
Me niether but there's quite a few million or more that do have contact with him according to them that is.But do all their gods agree on the same plan?
I watched a batch of animated videos on Youtube like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oakWgLqCwUc
that started scary, with a DFS sale on , whatever next !;-)
Daughter gave away the leather sofa that she had got from Freegle
because she simply couldn't bare sitting of animal skins any longer.
and the same people did this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6fcK_fRYaI
I wasn't sure if it was covering what a particular religious group
'believed' etc?
Note sure, but I was hoping that after the egg the chicken song would start ,Ah, now if you want 'scary' and a 'song' ... <weg>
that's real culture
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccM4wVgZN9o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YVmD-BBIvk
Cheers, T i m
p.s. I took a cool from my mates son last night. He was in tears as his
Dad (my friend for 50 years) had just died of a heart attack and with
heart disease. He was a big meat eater and we know there are strong
links between the consumption of meat (especially reds / processed) and
such risks. ;-(
I think most people die of something.Well yes ...
Some say it's better to burn out than fade away.
And I agree, however, judging by how my friend was in tears a week
earlier after being given the prognosis from the doctor I think he'd
rather not have gone at all, or certainly not this early / quickly.
But it's like those who choose to continue to smoke after they know the
risks and worse, have a smoking related illness but get over it. They
have made their call so ...
Cheers, T i m
Cannibalism because they couldn't get away from each other no doubt. ;-(
I doubt that is the reason for cannibalism occuring.
For some reason the sight of blood changes their mood.
This time next year there won't be any mass chicken exploitation here if
avian flu is still about. ;-(
I think they'll find a way to sort it.
Didn;t hear of any reports of people starving over xmas because of the shortages due to avain flu.
It's not ethical to support a company that mistreats animals .It can be (see above). Throwing the baby out with the bathwater ...
That's what happens, it's what standing up for your beliefs is all about.
Some go as far as settting fire to themselves.
When my friends did a gig for the animal libration front, my french flatmate suggested we meet in McDs before the gig, saying you don;t have to eat in their.
They were pretty upset with her attitude as it;'s more than just what you eat.
It's about not buying fur or leather and not supporting companies
that profit from animal cruelty such as animal testing of products.
McDs are better as regards an ethical company than they were in the 80s.Sure, many animal exploiting Co's are because many humans are still
evolving. Sea creatures like octopi,
I heard it's octopuses or octopodes rather than octopi, which is 8*pi :-)
crab and lobster now being granted
with sentience so have to be killed before being boiled alive (took them
long enough to get there mind).
You think that's bad ,
for about 100 years men have been protecting thier privates with 'boxes'
when playing cricket but it's only in the last 10 years we've realised that the brain is also important
so they wear helmets on the head now. Football is heading or rather not heading in the same direction.
In person possibly. Overall (unless you partake of vegan forums) I doubt it.
I'm betting I know more vegitarians and vegans than you do
Only the vegan one on facebook. I tend not to post though.
The first vegan I met was around 1984. A higher number of vegetarians
and one girlfriend for about a week that was macrobiotic.
and they will not go into McDsBut many will (for the perfectly logical reasons I posted previously) so
I'm not sure what your point is?
They aren't illogical to vegans or vegitarians.
They believed McDs were the worst of the big burger chains when it came to animal welfare.
I doubt they'd go to a vegan cafe if it was run by Hitler, Putin or Trump either.What, before they became monsters you mean? Why not?
even I wouldn't do that.
I along with many will also buy vegan products from companies who also
do animal based products where there could be cross contamination or the
conveyors are lubricated with grease made using animal products.
Yes but McDs were a specail case back in the 80s and even 90s.
Itv was possible to go to other places even burger king and wimpeys, wendys all had better reputations and practices than McDs
If we don't allow for some level of compromise for people to transition
no company is likely to bother supporting vegan (as opposed to plant
based) products. A cafe stars offering a vegan option, sees there is
demand (because people, inc vegans choose such) and so expand their
range, possibly eventually becoming 100% vegan. This would be far less
likely to happen, if the customers hadn't supported them. YMMV.
It's more than just what you eat.
I doubt I'd go into a cafe what served vegan food if it also served dogs and cat on the menu.
If a pub was homophobic or racist I wouldn't drink in their either.
Quite ... and hence why many vegans will go to McD's.Whilst 'of course' we don't want to support anyone who causes animals to >>>> suffer and die unnecessarily, given few of these companies will be
offering vegan options for ethical reasons (rather than increased
profit), how will we get them to offer and hopefully expand their
cruelty free foods if people don't buy them?
Same way people decide on whether they support any business.
Not the ones that I know, perhaps recent converts will.
Back in the day my veggie/vegan friends suggested I gio to wendys for a burger
better food than McDs less processed less chemicals and far better work ethics,
which also included how they treated their employees.
Nor would I (I don't drink spirits) but my comment was nothing to do
Even if Hitler offered me 1/2 price whisky I still wouldn't buy it from him.
with money (as I assumed it would be more expensive anyway) but
something much deeper.
Niether was mine but it's how far youd go.
What if sharing a Scotch with Hitler meant he then didn't kill as many
people and with the thought that might reduce to zero, given no
alternative pathways?
It''s a bit like the prime directive.
There are millions of instances throughout history where lives have been
saved or improved by some level of compromise.
Yep and whose lives .
But do all their gods agree on the same plan?You'll have to have a word with God about that he apparently has 'plans' :-0Unfortunately I don't have a communication path with him/her or I could >>>> ask what the plan is.
Me niether but there's quite a few million or more that do have contact with him according to them that is.
No idea it seems that those that follow their God believe he is the only God and denty the 2000 odd others.
So I only disbelieve in one God less than them so what's the problem.
(i.e they dis-believe in 1999 Gods and I dis-believe in 2000 Gods.)
So hardly any differnce between theists and athests really less than 0.1%
I watched a batch of animated videos on Youtube like this:
Never really liked leather sofas , but I did buy a leather coat from a friend of a vegitarian friend .
She was OK with it because I wan't supporting killing another animal as the coat was already secondhand.
But she wouldn;t have bought it herself or worn in.
Then there's shoes when it comes to leather those vegans I know buy their doc Martin type boots from a shop in
Brighton that specialise in vegan clothes .
Ah, now if you want 'scary' and a 'song' ... <weg>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YVmD-BBIvk
Yep and that's not the wost of them.
On 10/01/2023 16:01, whisky-dave wrote:
<snip>
Cannibalism because they couldn't get away from each other no doubt. ;-(
I doubt that is the reason for cannibalism occuring.It is. The bird density breaches their abilities to cope and causes
stress. See, the suffering vegans refer to isn't always just the
physical stuff.
For some reason the sight of blood changes their mood.I'm sure it does?
<snip>
This time next year there won't be any mass chicken exploitation here if >> avian flu is still about. ;-(
I think they'll find a way to sort it.What, the carnists only had birds to eat over Xmyth?
Didn;t hear of any reports of people starving over xmas because of the shortages due to avain flu.
<snip>
It's not ethical to support a company that mistreats animals .It can be (see above). Throwing the baby out with the bathwater ...
That's what happens, it's what standing up for your beliefs is all about.There is more that one way to do that.
Some go as far as settting fire to themselves.I'm sure that might send a message of some sort but not sure how it
allows them to continue being a practical advocate?
When my friends did a gig for the animal libration front, my french flatmateSounds like a reasonable and rational person.
suggested we meet in McDs before the gig, saying you don;t have to eat in their.
They were pretty upset with her attitude as it;'s more than just what you eat.Of course it is, or it would just be a plant based diet. BUt there are
many way of obtaining yours goals in in some cases that does mean
keeping your enemies closer.
It's about not buying fur or leather and not supporting companiesOh wow, if only I'd know that after being an ethical vegan for 3 years I would have chosen a non egg based flue jab ... oh no, I did choose an alternative. ;-)
that profit from animal cruelty such as animal testing of products.
McDs are better as regards an ethical company than they were in the 80s. >> Sure, many animal exploiting Co's are because many humans are stillevolving. Sea creatures like octopi,
I heard it's octopuses or octopodes rather than octopi, which is 8*pi :-)I think the latter is just an older Latin usage.
crab and lobster now being granted
with sentience so have to be killed before being boiled alive (took them >> long enough to get there mind).
You think that's bad ,Yes, I do, don't you? ;-)
for about 100 years men have been protecting thier privates with 'boxes' when playing cricket but it's only in the last 10 years we've realised that the brain is also importantThey are just games. They should grow up.
so they wear helmets on the head now. Football is heading or rather not heading in the same direction.
I'm betting I know more vegitarians and vegans than you doIn person possibly. Overall (unless you partake of vegan forums) I doubt it.
Only the vegan one on facebook. I tend not to post though.Not easy to have 'a discussion' then?
The first vegan I met was around 1984. A higher number of vegetariansWhat, your girlfriend was in a petri dish? <weg>
and one girlfriend for about a week that was macrobiotic.
and they will not go into McDsBut many will (for the perfectly logical reasons I posted previously) so >> I'm not sure what your point is?
They aren't illogical to vegans or vegitarians.
They believed McDs were the worst of the big burger chains when it came to animal welfare.Well, actually the worst by far are those who pay for it to happen. If
they stopped paying, McD's would stop the exploitation, suffering and killing and you can't get better animal welfare than that. ;-_)
I doubt they'd go to a vegan cafe if it was run by Hitler, Putin or Trump either.What, before they became monsters you mean? Why not?
even I wouldn't do that.
I along with many will also buy vegan products from companies who also
do animal based products where there could be cross contamination or the >> conveyors are lubricated with grease made using animal products.
Yes but McDs were a specail case back in the 80s and even 90s.Whilst you may be right, I'm pretty sure that also applies to free range
Itv was possible to go to other places even burger king and wimpeys, wendys
all had better reputations and practices than McDs
and organic as well, they often start at the same place and certainly
end at the same place.
I'm pretty sure no one thinks better of Josef Fritzl because he
unchained his children one a week. Much better treatment than the other psychopath down the road who only did that once a year?
If we don't allow for some level of compromise for people to transition >> no company is likely to bother supporting vegan (as opposed to plant
based) products. A cafe stars offering a vegan option, sees there is
demand (because people, inc vegans choose such) and so expand their
range, possibly eventually becoming 100% vegan. This would be far less
likely to happen, if the customers hadn't supported them. YMMV.
It's more than just what you eat.Erm, I know (see above).
I doubt I'd go into a cafe what served vegan food if it also served dogs and cat on the menu.Depends if they were on display or not. Chances are most meat eaters wouldn't go into a cafe if they saw the animals being slaughtered
either? Funny few care if they see someone picking an apple or digging
up a potato.
If a pub was homophobic or racist I wouldn't drink in their either.You might if you were a heterosexual (and typically) white person who
was thirsty?
And what if you were say black and gay, wouldn't it be cool
if you were able to convince that landlord and other patrons that they
had nothing to fear? You only get a say if you are at the table.
Quite ... and hence why many vegans will go to McD's.Whilst 'of course' we don't want to support anyone who causes animals to
suffer and die unnecessarily, given few of these companies will be
offering vegan options for ethical reasons (rather than increased
profit), how will we get them to offer and hopefully expand their
cruelty free foods if people don't buy them?
Same way people decide on whether they support any business.
Not the ones that I know, perhaps recent converts will.I don't think that comes into it. Let me help you with the official
goals here:
"Veganism: "A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the
benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it
denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals." - The Vegan Society"
So, I'm out and hungry and I *only* have two choices. A burger joint
that only does ground up animals or McD's who also do vegan / plant
based stuff.
'Practicable and possible' ...
<snip>
Back in the day my veggie/vegan friends suggested I gio to wendys for a burgerAbsolutely. When you have a choice it's generally better to make the
better food than McDs less processed less chemicals and far better work ethics,
which also included how they treated their employees.
best one where 'best' can cover many facets and factors.
<snip>
Nor would I (I don't drink spirits) but my comment was nothing to do
Even if Hitler offered me 1/2 price whisky I still wouldn't buy it from him.
with money (as I assumed it would be more expensive anyway) but
something much deeper.
Niether was mine but it's how far youd go.Of course but *sometimes* there is a bigger picture / plan.
Like, if someone sets fire to themselves or dies on a hunger protest,
you would have to weigh up how much 'good' that would do for the cause
over what good that person could do over the rest of their lives.
What if sharing a Scotch with Hitler meant he then didn't kill as many
people and with the thought that might reduce to zero, given no
alternative pathways?
It''s a bit like the prime directive.Quite. ;-)
There are millions of instances throughout history where lives have been >> saved or improved by some level of compromise.
Yep and whose lives .Every / any. The statement stands irrespective.
<snip>
But do all their gods agree on the same plan?You'll have to have a word with God about that he apparently has 'plans' :-0Unfortunately I don't have a communication path with him/her or I could >>>> ask what the plan is.
Me niether but there's quite a few million or more that do have contact with him according to them that is.
No idea it seems that those that follow their God believe he is the only God and denty the 2000 odd others.Strange that. No logical consistency at all. Like eating lamb but not
eating dog.
So I only disbelieve in one God less than them so what's the problem.It was 3000 but it was funny.
(i.e they dis-believe in 1999 Gods and I dis-believe in 2000 Gods.)
So hardly any differnce between theists and athests really less than 0.1%Yup.
<snip>I watched a batch of animated videos on Youtube like this:
Never really liked leather sofas , but I did buy a leather coat from a friend of a vegitarian friend .I sort of get that when it comes to furniture because in general, few
She was OK with it because I wan't supporting killing another animal as the coat was already secondhand.
But she wouldn;t have bought it herself or worn in.
get to see it and those who do might understand the ideals. Different if
you are wearing fur out in public, EVEN if it's fake because it's quite visible and continues the normalisation of such.
Then there's shoes when it comes to leather those vegans I know buy their doc Martin type boots from a shop inNot so easy with leather on shoes and belts as it's not so obvious that
Brighton that specialise in vegan clothes .
it was the skin of an animal (and could be 'Plether' or some such.
Unless you wore say baby skin shoes and kept the fingers on etc (I'm
told it's ok as long as the baby was ethically raised and was killed humanely). Sorry, I mean a 'baby crocodile' of course, a human baby
would be very different and weird right even if 'it' (like we refer to livestock) died of natural causes?
Ah, now if you want 'scary' and a 'song' ... <weg>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YVmD-BBIvk
Yep and that's not the wost of them.Indeed not. ;-(
Cheers, T i m
Yup, so it's cultural, nothing to do with logic or what's right or not. However, as we grow up we can start making our own and hopefully better choices.
The thing our daughter has found the saddest when talking to people at
the vegan 'Cubes' is children who have a very good understanding of all
the negative aspects of livestock farming and would like to go vegan but
they rely on their (ignorant / indoctrinated) parents for their food
options (at home at least)..
and the health aspects.
Sometimes. That is covered by 'survival' though, when there are no
kinder alternatives.
On Tuesday, 10 January 2023 at 18:31:45 UTC, T i m wrote:
On 10/01/2023 16:01, whisky-dave wrote:
<snip>
It is. The bird density breaches their abilities to cope and causesCannibalism because they couldn't get away from each other no doubt. ;-( >>>I doubt that is the reason for cannibalism occuring.
stress. See, the suffering vegans refer to isn't always just the
physical stuff.
I was reffering to the fact that it is blood, implies injury and little to do with being in close proximity.
Chickens do have red bit on them that isn't blood.
Didn;t hear of any reports of people starving over xmas because of the shortages due to avain flu.
What, the carnists only had birds to eat over Xmyth?
Obviously not , the prices went up. But I doubt many decidied to go veggie or vegan becaasue of it.
<snip>
It's not ethical to support a company that mistreats animals .It can be (see above). Throwing the baby out with the bathwater ...
That's what happens, it's what standing up for your beliefs is all about. >> There is more that one way to do that.
As with most things.
2 of my vegan/veggie friends who are anti McDs buy ham for their cats ,
they also have a car so they polute .
I told them to go electric but they can't afford it
so I told them use public transport like
I do
or walk they ssay it's not convienient for them.
They both smoke too but haven;t given up fags because of smoking begals ,
but they won't buy leather products .
Anther vegan friend has 2 rescue greyhounds that eat meat.
Some go as far as settting fire to themselves.I'm sure that might send a message of some sort but not sure how it
allows them to continue being a practical advocate?
So why do it?
When my friends did a gig for the animal libration front, my french flatmateSounds like a reasonable and rational person.
suggested we meet in McDs before the gig, saying you don;t have to eat in their.
No she is french.
And obviously no other place to meet within a 100 miles of camden station is there.
Must be illegal to wait outside the station or outside the venue only plae was McDs.
They were pretty upset with her attitude as it;'s more than just what you eat.Of course it is, or it would just be a plant based diet. BUt there are
many way of obtaining yours goals in in some cases that does mean
keeping your enemies closer.
But supporting your eniemies finacially or social isn't a good option.
Oh wow, if only I'd know that after being an ethical vegan for 3 years I
It's about not buying fur or leather and not supporting companies
that profit from animal cruelty such as animal testing of products.
would have chosen a non egg based flue jab ... oh no, I did choose an
alternative. ;-)
wow 3 years
I'bve know people give up even after 10 years as they believed their heal;th stated to suffer.
Yes, I do, don't you? ;-)
crab and lobster now being granted
with sentience so have to be killed before being boiled alive (took them >>>> long enough to get there mind).
You think that's bad ,
Yes once you realsie that they feel pain.
for about 100 years men have been protecting thier privates with 'boxes' >>> when playing cricket but it's only in the last 10 years we've realised that the brain is also importantThey are just games. They should grow up.
so they wear helmets on the head now. Football is heading or rather not heading in the same direction.
Better they grow up like that that have wars or gladiator contests where killing or maianing is the aim.
Not easy to have 'a discussion' then?I'm betting I know more vegitarians and vegans than you doIn person possibly. Overall (unless you partake of vegan forums) I doubt it.
Only the vegan one on facebook. I tend not to post though.
It is with those that aren;t fanatics.
They believed McDs were the worst of the big burger chains when it came to animal welfare.Well, actually the worst by far are those who pay for it to happen. If
they stopped paying, McD's would stop the exploitation, suffering and
killing and you can't get better animal welfare than that. ;-_)
Yep that was the general idea.
I doubt they'd go to a vegan cafe if it was run by Hitler, Putin or Trump either.What, before they became monsters you mean? Why not?
even I wouldn't do that.
Neither of those were particually nice when young and old enough to run such a place.
And hitler was told by his doctors to be veggie.
Whilst you may be right, I'm pretty sure that also applies to free range
and organic as well, they often start at the same place and certainly
end at the same place.
But with less cuelty
and hopefully better for health.
I'm pretty sure no one thinks better of Josef Fritzl because he
unchained his children one a week. Much better treatment than the other
psychopath down the road who only did that once a year?
I heard John lennon was a wife beater, that doesn't seem to change what peolpe think of him as a musician.
Depends if they were on display or not. Chances are most meat eaters
wouldn't go into a cafe if they saw the animals being slaughtered
either? Funny few care if they see someone picking an apple or digging
up a potato.
I beleive my great grandparents though nothing of ringing a chickens neck killing it.
My forst memeories of walthamstow market were with my gran who go and ask for 2 of eels.
Then someone would grab the live eels chop them up and put them on the scales and sell them to her.
If a pub was homophobic or racist I wouldn't drink in their either.You might if you were a heterosexual (and typically) white person who
was thirsty?
I don't think I've been to a pub because I was thirsty.
And what if you were say black and gay, wouldn't it be cool
if you were able to convince that landlord and other patrons that they
had nothing to fear? You only get a say if you are at the table.
I could go to mass and tell the pope God doesn't exist doubt I;'d be able to convince him or anyone else there.
"Veganism: "A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far >> as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty >> to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension,
promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the
benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it
denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or
partly from animals." - The Vegan Society"
So, I'm out and hungry and I *only* have two choices. A burger joint
that only does ground up animals or McD's who also do vegan / plant
based stuff.
There are more place than just burger joints.
Of course but *sometimes* there is a bigger picture / plan.Even if Hitler offered me 1/2 price whisky I still wouldn't buy it from him.Nor would I (I don't drink spirits) but my comment was nothing to do
with money (as I assumed it would be more expensive anyway) but
something much deeper.
Niether was mine but it's how far youd go.
Some take their own lunch out.
Like, if someone sets fire to themselves or dies on a hunger protest,
you would have to weigh up how much 'good' that would do for the cause
over what good that person could do over the rest of their lives.
Unless they do such a thing I might not even know of their cause.
No idea it seems that those that follow their God believe he is the only God and denty the 2000 odd others.Strange that. No logical consistency at all. Like eating lamb but not
eating dog.
Depends how you are brought up doesn;t it,
and the health aspects.
On 11/01/2023 13:44, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 10 January 2023 at 18:31:45 UTC, T i m wrote:
On 10/01/2023 16:01, whisky-dave wrote:
<snip>
It is. The bird density breaches their abilities to cope and causesCannibalism because they couldn't get away from each other no doubt. ;-(
I doubt that is the reason for cannibalism occuring.
stress. See, the suffering vegans refer to isn't always just the
physical stuff.
I was reffering to the fact that it is blood, implies injury and little to do with being in close proximity.I'm not sure what part of cause and effect you don't get?
Chickens do have red bit on them that isn't blood.
Force animals into a proximity that isn't normal for them and many
become stressed and can react accordingly / aggressively?
<snip>
Didn;t hear of any reports of people starving over xmas because of the shortages due to avain flu.
What, the carnists only had birds to eat over Xmyth?
Obviously not , the prices went up. But I doubt many decidied to go veggie or vegan becaasue of it.Note sure why you made such a link or only seem to be able to deal with absolutes? I guess you were saying that few people need to rely on
eating birds to survive and you are right. ;-)
<snip>
There is more that one way to do that.It's not ethical to support a company that mistreats animals .It can be (see above). Throwing the baby out with the bathwater ...
That's what happens, it's what standing up for your beliefs is all about.
As with most things.Exactly ... and why when our daughter rescued a dog she decided to feed
2 of my vegan/veggie friends who are anti McDs buy ham for their cats ,
him a plant based diet as it was pointless saving one animal then
killing others to feed him on.
they also have a car so they polute .I believe most of the greenhouse gas pollution is cause by animal ag.
I told them to go electric but they can't afford itAnd depending on the age of their car and the distances travels it could still be less polluting (in general) by keeping their old car than any
of the alternatives.
so I told them use public transport likeAgain, only really works when the occupancy is above a certain
I do
threshold. Running empty buses or trains about isn't 'green'.
or walk they ssay it's not convienient for them.Quite, I wonder how 'convenient' all the flooding was in Pakistan last
year or California now?
They both smoke too but haven;t given up fags because of smoking begals ,Sound just like vegetarians to me.
but they won't buy leather products .Loads of logical inconsistency there.
Anther vegan friend has 2 rescue greyhounds that eat meat.You bet they die.
Dogs are omnivores, not obligate carnivores like cats and so there is no reason they can't live on a balanced plant based diet.
https://vegan-dogfood.co.uk/2022/02/23/for-the-love-of-greyhounds/
"Since transitioning to a plant-based diet their overall health has
improved massively, they have lots of energy, their coats and skin are
in a beautiful condition, their teeth are in excellent condition, they
have very regular bowel function, perfect poos!"
And at least they will be less likely to suffer from antibiotic
resistance or any of the pathogens that end up in 'meat'.
https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/safety-health/recalls-withdrawals
And why we have to store meat below everything else in the fridge so contaminates can drip onto the other food, use different chopping boards
for it and wash our hands after even touching fresh chicken.
Some go as far as settting fire to themselves.I'm sure that might send a message of some sort but not sure how it
allows them to continue being a practical advocate?
So why do it?AS I said, because it might send a message of some sort?
When my friends did a gig for the animal libration front, my french flatmateSounds like a reasonable and rational person.
suggested we meet in McDs before the gig, saying you don;t have to eat in their.
No she is french.Oh, you are a Francophile as well now? ;-)
At least the French don't generally stand for the same cr*p we do from
our government.
And obviously no other place to meet within a 100 miles of camden station is there.I think there are a few vegan food places in Camden buyt you kbow how
weird some carnist can be if you mention the idea of eating fruit and
veg (like they never eat that sort of thing with their meat ...)?
Must be illegal to wait outside the station or outside the venue only plae was McDs.Or it could be that it was logistically convenient and most people are likely to know where McD's are as they normally occupy prime locations.
They were pretty upset with her attitude as it;'s more than just what you eat.Of course it is, or it would just be a plant based diet. BUt there are
many way of obtaining yours goals in in some cases that does mean
keeping your enemies closer.
But supporting your eniemies finacially or social isn't a good option.It can still be a valid means to an end.
Getting farmers to transition away from the cruelty that is the
livestock industry is easier when you give them money to support other options (inc re-wilding). WE give them subsidies for meat, eggs and
dairy so why not stop sponsoring the cruelty and put the money into transitioning them to something kinder and evolved for 2023.
It's about not buying fur or leather and not supporting companiesOh wow, if only I'd know that after being an ethical vegan for 3 years I >> would have chosen a non egg based flue jab ... oh no, I did choose an
that profit from animal cruelty such as animal testing of products.
alternative. ;-)
wow 3 yearsYup?
I'bve know people give up even after 10 years as they believed their heal;th stated to suffer.Then I might suggest they weren't looking after their diets properly or
were never vegans in the first place.
Given there is no scientific reason why we can't survive on a balanced
vegan diet and for many it's better / healthier than what they were
eating before, doesn't make sense either.
Yes, I do, don't you? ;-)crab and lobster now being granted
with sentience so have to be killed before being boiled alive (took them
long enough to get there mind).
You think that's bad ,
Yes once you realsie that they feel pain.I was pretty sure they all felt pain from when I was a child so wouldn't
the best thing to have been to assume they did?
for about 100 years men have been protecting thier privates with 'boxes' >>> when playing cricket but it's only in the last 10 years we've realised that the brain is also importantThey are just games. They should grow up.
so they wear helmets on the head now. Football is heading or rather not heading in the same direction.
Better they grow up like that that have wars or gladiator contests where killing or maianing is the aim.Again, not sure the link? I don't care for any ball sports but don't
want to start a war either? In fact my goal is to minimise all suffering?
But talking of gladiators ...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-29723384
Not easy to have 'a discussion' then?I'm betting I know more vegitarians and vegans than you doIn person possibly. Overall (unless you partake of vegan forums) I doubt it.
Only the vegan one on facebook. I tend not to post though.
It is with those that aren;t fanatics.Ah, using the medium of mime? Can they all see you from where you live,
if you don't ever input on that FB group?
And it's funny when people resort to using emotive words to describe
things they don't understand or fear.
To us the IRA were terrorists but to the Americans they were freedom fighters.
To a Co that relies on the suffering and exploitation of animals,
someone 'freeing' some animals from their property is an 'Activist' but
if the RSPCA did it (for the exact same reasons) they would be heros / rescuers.
<snip>
They believed McDs were the worst of the big burger chains when it came to animal welfare.Well, actually the worst by far are those who pay for it to happen. If
they stopped paying, McD's would stop the exploitation, suffering and
killing and you can't get better animal welfare than that. ;-_)
Yep that was the general idea.It is indeed. I believe a lot of it is down to simple ignorance. We are
now disconnected and sanitised and brainwashed by words like 'Happy
cows' and 'Red Tractor' and 'humane' when the animals still suffer and die.
I doubt they'd go to a vegan cafe if it was run by Hitler, Putin or Trump either.What, before they became monsters you mean? Why not?
even I wouldn't do that.
Neither of those were particually nice when young and old enough to run such a place.Pass, I don't mix in the same circles as you. ;-)
And hitler was told by his doctors to be veggie.Whilst they may have done, he wasn't.
Most people who grow up to abuse people started by abusing animals and
the Nazi's carried out most of their testing on animals before they did
on humans, just like they do in animal testing today of course. The livestock industry routinely use gas chambers today to stun / kill
several species ... including day old chick chicks, chickens and pigs.
I wonder if a meat eater needing to put their sick pet to sleep would
accept it done in the same way they do the animals they eat and if not,
why not?
Whilst you may be right, I'm pretty sure that also applies to free range >> and organic as well, they often start at the same place and certainly
end at the same place.
But with less cuelty'Certainly'? There is no way you could be that certain I'm afraid.
and hopefully better for health.Well, up and until the animal get's gassed, a bolt gun to the forehead
or electrocuted and it's throat cut you mean?
Given most livestock are killed at the age equivalent of a human child,
just how much 'good life' do you think is 'enough'?
I'm pretty sure no one thinks better of Josef Fritzl because he
unchained his children one a week. Much better treatment than the other >> psychopath down the road who only did that once a year?
I heard John lennon was a wife beater, that doesn't seem to change what peolpe think of him as a musician.Quite.
<snip>
Depends if they were on display or not. Chances are most meat eaters
wouldn't go into a cafe if they saw the animals being slaughtered
either? Funny few care if they see someone picking an apple or digging
up a potato.
I beleive my great grandparents though nothing of ringing a chickens neck killing it.Yup, that was fairly 'normal' those days because many more people could
keep chickens and meat and eggs were expensive to buy.
My forst memeories of walthamstow market were with my gran who go and ask for 2 of eels.Yup. Again, fairly common for people with little money as eels were originally a 'poor mans' food.
Then someone would grab the live eels chop them up and put them on the scales and sell them to her.Lovely.
If a pub was homophobic or racist I wouldn't drink in their either.You might if you were a heterosexual (and typically) white person who
was thirsty?
I don't think I've been to a pub because I was thirsty.
And what if you were say black and gay, wouldn't it be cool
if you were able to convince that landlord and other patrons that they
had nothing to fear? You only get a say if you are at the table.
I could go to mass and tell the pope God doesn't exist doubt I;'d be able to convince him or anyone else there.Well, there would be more chance of convincing them than if you didn't
go there (and the point).
<snip>
"Veganism: "A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far
as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty
to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension,
promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the
benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it
denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or
partly from animals." - The Vegan Society"
So, I'm out and hungry and I *only* have two choices. A burger joint
that only does ground up animals or McD's who also do vegan / plant
based stuff.
There are more place than just burger joints.Whoosh.;-(
<snip>
Of course but *sometimes* there is a bigger picture / plan.Even if Hitler offered me 1/2 price whisky I still wouldn't buy it from him.Nor would I (I don't drink spirits) but my comment was nothing to do >>>> with money (as I assumed it would be more expensive anyway) but
something much deeper.
Niether was mine but it's how far youd go.
Some take their own lunch out.Of course, and?
Like, if someone sets fire to themselves or dies on a hunger protest,
you would have to weigh up how much 'good' that would do for the cause
over what good that person could do over the rest of their lives.
Unless they do such a thing I might not even know of their cause.I think he's got it! ;-)
<snip>
No idea it seems that those that follow their God believe he is the only God and denty the 2000 odd others.Strange that. No logical consistency at all. Like eating lamb but not
eating dog.
Depends how you are brought up doesn;t it,Yup, so it's cultural, nothing to do with logic or what's right or not. However, as we grow up we can start making our own and hopefully better choices.
The thing our daughter has found the saddest when talking to people at
the vegan 'Cubes' is children who have a very good understanding of all
the negative aspects of livestock farming and would like to go vegan but
thy rely on their (ignorant / indoctrinated) parents for their food
options (at home at least)..
and the health aspects.
Sometimes. That is covered by 'survival' though, when there are no
kinder alternatives.
Cheers, T i m
On 11/01/2023 20:33, David Brooks wrote:
On 11/01/2023 20:18, T i m astounds me with what he writes!<snip>
<SNIP> Thought provoking words written from the heart.
Sometimes. That is covered by 'survival' though, when there are no
kinder alternatives.
Do you have a Facebook page or a website of your own dedicated to this
subject matter?
No, sorry David, I'm just one of the millions of people who realise we
too were the monsters and decided to align our actions to our morals.
We (ethical vegans) primarily do this for the voiceless innocent that
are forced to suffer and be exploited before they are killed (and I
don't mean in some backwater country, standard farming practices here in
the UK), but also to protect the very world we all need to survive and
so everything on it.
So the goals are pretty simple, the means that most of us have control
over (what we wear, eat or do) often mean improvements in our own mental
and physical health and if enough people (who had the choices) made
better ones, we may be able to bring the man mage greenhouse gas fired climate crisis back to a point that wouldn't set us on the path of
thermal runaway and a mass extinction event.
But in the main the great unwashed are to ignorant, too selfish and
would really rather see the world on fire than *actually* do anything
about it, not only for themselves but not for their kids either.
If so, I will visit and read if you provide details.
Thanks. It really depends on what you are open to. If it's the bigger
picture about the who man made / livestock / climate crisis / pollution
/ wasted resources thing then there are loads of things on the likes of Youtube that might help.
This whole series seem to be well resourced, simply presented and balanced.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1Hq8eVOMHs
If you want something more animal focused check out the documentary 'Dominion' (available elsewhere).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko
or anything by Ed Winters. He is very well researched and uses a very gentle Socratic form of questioning on his outreach.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3u7hXpOm58 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI37r28AYFs
Kerry McCarthy is quite funny / direct: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPdUMWGWE28
This guy is quite funny and covers much of it in a pretty pragmatic and honest way (even if not for the 'right' reasons): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnA47sY_o_o
Along with the likes of the documentaries, Cowspiracy or Seaspiracy or
My Octopus Teacher (It's a making of so has spoilers if you wanted to
watch the full film).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyBqZ-_5B_8
For something a bit lighter, 'Game Changers' is quite good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIl6aRS452E
Cheers, T i m
"Plant milks aren't substitutes for animal milk, animal milks are
substitutes for human milk."
On 11/01/2023 20:18, T i m astounds me with what he writes!
<SNIP> Thought provoking words written from the heart.
Sometimes. That is covered by 'survival' though, when there are no
kinder alternatives.
Do you have a Facebook page or a website of your own dedicated to this subject matter?
If so, I will visit and read if you provide details.
I'm not sure what part of cause and effect you don't get?
Canabalism is not directly linked to this so call cause and effect.
The fact that happens with uncagged birds and it's less easy to control hence the use of 'sunglasses.'
Some people can survive without going into McDs too.
I've managed it since about 1993, and I don't claim to be any of the Vs
Being a vegan or veggie doesn't tell you what TV programmes to watch either , remmber Hilter was mostly a veggie, didn;t make him good pesron.
My V friends didn't go to McDs because of their business practices mostly regarding animal welfare, but also humans
and closing down other small and healthy resturants irrecspect of whether they sold meat or not.
A similar situation is whether or not you think Gandi was a good person and Mother therasa .
I remmber at school they were considered almost heros of humanity, but the truth was a little differtent.
2 of my vegan/veggie friends who are anti McDs buy ham for their cats ,Exactly ... and why when our daughter rescued a dog she decided to feed
him a plant based diet as it was pointless saving one animal then
killing others to feed him on.
But its not know to be good for the dog.
You can certainly feed them plant matter but not exclusivly.
Dogs are omnivores, which means that they eat both meat and plant products.
While it is theoretically possible,
the British Veterinary Association does not recommend giving a dog a vegetarian or a vegan diet as it is much easier to get the balance of essential nutrients wrong than to get it right.1 Feb 2022
Unless your daugher is a qualified vet or has some professional experience and say she's a selfish bitch and doesn't shouldn't be in charge of a dog.
they also have a car so they polute .I believe most of the greenhouse gas pollution is cause by animal ag.
Prove it.
Globally, the primary sources of greenhouse gas emissions are electricity and heat (31%), agriculture (11%), transportation (15%), forestry (6%) and manufacturing (12%). Energy production of all types accounts for 72 percent of all emissions.
I told them to go electric but they can't afford itAnd depending on the age of their car and the distances travels it could
still be less polluting (in general) by keeping their old car than any
of the alternatives.
15 years I think.
so I told them use public transport likeAgain, only really works when the occupancy is above a certain
I do
threshold. Running empty buses or trains about isn't 'green'.
It';s green than most cars.
When I wait for 10mins for a bust that is more than half full and cars mostly only carrying one person and far kmore of them too.
or walk they ssay it's not convienient for them.Quite, I wonder how 'convenient' all the flooding was in Pakistan last
year or California now?
Probbbaly for niether of them.
They both smoke too but haven;t given up fags because of smoking begals , >> Sound just like vegetarians to me.
Yep now going vegan as possible.
Still wonlt go into McDs but will go into some burger places if they sell proper chips and NOT french fries.
but they won't buy leather products .Loads of logical inconsistency there.
No such thing
but you do what you can, it;'s just than some do more than others.
Anther vegan friend has 2 rescue greyhounds that eat meat.You bet they die.
can;t think of anything that doesn;t apart from stupidity that lives forever.
Dogs are omnivores, not obligate carnivores like cats and so there is no
reason they can't live on a balanced plant based diet.
https://vegan-dogfood.co.uk/2022/02/23/for-the-love-of-greyhounds/
If trained vets are yet to be convinced I wouldn;t try such a thing if I had a dog.
https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/safety-health/recalls-withdrawals
And why we have to store meat below everything else in the fridge so
contaminates can drip onto the other food, use different chopping boards
for it and wash our hands after even touching fresh chicken.
Yes it's called scince and understanding how things work.
At least the French don't generally stand for the same cr*p we do from
our government.
Like burning sheep you mean.
And obviously no other place to meet within a 100 miles of camden station is there.I think there are a few vegan food places in Camden buyt you kbow how
weird some carnist can be if you mention the idea of eating fruit and
veg (like they never eat that sort of thing with their meat ...)?
Few would go to an animal liberation front gig if they felt like that,
unless you are arrogant.
Must be illegal to wait outside the station or outside the venue only plae was McDs.Or it could be that it was logistically convenient and most people are
likely to know where McD's are as they normally occupy prime locations.
Logically for people who support the welfare for animals meet in McDs I don;t think so.
I said to her you can go to mCDs I'm off to the deveonshire arms.
It can still be a valid means to an end.
But supporting your eniemies finacially or social isn't a good option.
But unlikely.
Unless you believe in trickle down economics is another valid means to an end.
Getting farmers to transition away from the cruelty that is the
livestock industry is easier when you give them money to support other
options (inc re-wilding). WE give them subsidies for meat, eggs and
dairy so why not stop sponsoring the cruelty and put the money into
transitioning them to something kinder and evolved for 2023.
These farms are pretty much owned by the large componies.
They get substudies from loyal polititaions too.
Given there is no scientific reason why we can't survive on a balanced
vegan diet and for many it's better / healthier than what they were
eating before, doesn't make sense either.
But it is easier if you don't have to watch everything so closely.
If you stop getting Vit B & D (I think) from say milk as most of the substitudes don;t contain much of it
if any unless artifically added it won't show up as a deficancy for 3+ years, depending on your age.
Yes once you realsie that they feel pain.I was pretty sure they all felt pain from when I was a child so wouldn't
the best thing to have been to assume they did?
You can assume anything feels pain even a stuffed toy.
But talking of gladiators ...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-29723384
yep heard abaout that.
But it;s male aggression it's a natural thing so is compitition
why do you rhink there's so many quiz shows and talant show on TV.
Compititon is one of the most basic insticts of all animals.
It ensures survival.
And it's funny when people resort to using emotive words to describe
things they don't understand or fear.
To us the IRA were terrorists but to the Americans they were freedom
fighters.
Yes well they were both then.
Not certain but one of the reaosn for cruelty is money or rather than saving of it.
Hence factory farming.
and hopefully better for health.Well, up and until the animal get's gassed, a bolt gun to the forehead
or electrocuted and it's throat cut you mean?
We can die while hanggliding or die in a car crash or live in a care home
and the most fun thing we do there is fart.
Given most livestock are killed at the age equivalent of a human child,
just how much 'good life' do you think is 'enough'?
No idea .
Kids die of cancer too, and nothing to do with smoking.
On 12/01/2023 14:14, whisky-dave wrote:
<snip>
I'm not sure what part of cause and effect you don't get?
Canabalism is not directly linked to this so call cause and effect.It is mate. You really need to do some research, it *is* cause and
effect, not 'some' or 'so called'.
Stress brings on the effect and stress is caused by all sorts of things, including having more than about 100 in a flock. That's why they
routinely de-beak them because they *know* they will attack each other. Rather than dealing with that cause, they try to minimise the effect by exploiting and abusing the birds even more. Same with docking pigs
tails, castrating them, removing teeth and de-horning of animals. All
done to make them easier to handle, nothing to do with the welfare of
the animals.
<snip>
Some people can survive without going into McDs too.They can indeed.
I've managed it since about 1993, and I don't claim to be any of the VsThat's good then (both cases).
Being a vegan or veggie doesn't tell you what TV programmes to watch either , remmber Hilter was mostly a veggie, didn;t make him good pesron.Erm ... ?
My V friends didn't go to McDs because of their business practices mostly regarding animal welfare, but also humansOK?
and closing down other small and healthy resturants irrecspect of whether they sold meat or not.
A similar situation is whether or not you think Gandi was a good person and Mother therasa .But if any of them did a bad thing along with as good thing, would that negate either independently?
I remmber at school they were considered almost heros of humanity, but the truth was a little differtent.
See, you seem to be pushing for any solution to any problem to be 100%
or you don't count it when ITRW, very few solutions are, even the ones
Hitler tried. ;-)
That particular rabbit hole is called 'an appeal to futility' and
something I've seen / heard many many times re veganism.
<snip>
2 of my vegan/veggie friends who are anti McDs buy ham for their cats , >> Exactly ... and why when our daughter rescued a dog she decided to feedhim a plant based diet as it was pointless saving one animal then
killing others to feed him on.
But its not know to be good for the dog.Not known by whom? Not by the owner of Bramble and her siblings that's
for sure?
https://www.bordercolliefanclub.com/bramble-the-vegan-dog-lives-to-189-years/
You can certainly feed them plant matter but not exclusivly.Except when you can ...
Dogs are omnivores, which means that they eat both meat and plant products.Nope, being an omnivore doesn't stipulate 'that they eat anything
specific, just that they 'can' live on a range of foods.
While it is theoretically possible,It's not just 'theoretically possible', it's entirely possible and is
and has been the case aross thousands of dogs over many years.
the British Veterinary Association does not recommend giving a dog a vegetarian or a vegan diet as it is much easier to get the balance of essential nutrients wrong than to get it right.1 Feb 2022It's also much easier to give them all sorts of other diseases, like
cancer that way.
You obviously have a cognitive bias born out of ignorance and that's perfectly normal, given such ignorance is also 'normal' for the
population in general. You are one of the Flatworlders and you just need
to catch up. ;-)
Unless your daugher is a qualified vet or has some professional experience and say she's a selfish bitch and doesn't shouldn't be in charge of a dog.Of course you would, but what did I just say about your ignorance?
See,
if only you understood science you might then be able to let go of this
bias and fear of something you don't understand. You don't understand
because 1 (in your case) you aren't bright enough to and 2) because all
your 'knowledge' is not allowing you to.
they also have a car so they polute .I believe most of the greenhouse gas pollution is cause by animal ag.
Prove it.Check out the science for yourself.
Globally, the primary sources of greenhouse gas emissions are electricity and heat (31%), agriculture (11%), transportation (15%), forestry (6%) and manufacturing (12%). Energy production of all types accounts for 72 percent of all emissions.
'Most' when comparing transport to livestock and certainly when it comes
to the things we can do something about easily.
I told them to go electric but they can't afford itAnd depending on the age of their car and the distances travels it could >> still be less polluting (in general) by keeping their old car than any
of the alternatives.
15 years I think.Quite.
so I told them use public transport likeAgain, only really works when the occupancy is above a certain
I do
threshold. Running empty buses or trains about isn't 'green'.
It';s green than most cars.So you say.
When I wait for 10mins for a bust that is more than half full and cars mostly only carrying one person and far kmore of them too.Again, you are conflating different things. Fact. A bus with just the
driver will be less green than a car with just the driver (given the
same tech), simple observation of aerodynamics and mass.
So the question is, at what occupancy percentage does a bus become
greener than a car?
or walk they ssay it's not convienient for them.Quite, I wonder how 'convenient' all the flooding was in Pakistan last
year or California now?
Probbbaly for niether of them.Quite.
They both smoke too but haven;t given up fags because of smoking begals , >> Sound just like vegetarians to me.
Yep now going vegan as possible.No such thing mate. You are either vegan or you aren't, like you are
either pregmant or you aren't.
Still wonlt go into McDs but will go into some burger places if they sell proper chips and NOT french fries.Ok?
but they won't buy leather products .Loads of logical inconsistency there.
No such thingWhy do you insist in making yourself look a fool? Of course there is
such a thing as 'logical inconsistency', people are demonstrating it
every time they will eat a lamb but won't eat a dog or anything else.
Logical consistency is eating all animals that are edible.
but you do what you can, it;'s just than some do more than others.Of course.
Anther vegan friend has 2 rescue greyhounds that eat meat.You bet they die.
can;t think of anything that doesn;t apart from stupidity that lives forever.I'm 100% certain you will disprove that yourself in time. ;-)
So once again you choose or are too thick to have picked up on the
missing word 'unnecessarily' there.
Any animal, pushed into doing
something that causes them to suffer and die isn't good. Be it a dog in
a dog fight, a horse in a race or a greyhound in a race. They are dying
for 'our entertainment' and yet we think we abhor animal cruelty.
Dogs are omnivores, not obligate carnivores like cats and so there is no >> reason they can't live on a balanced plant based diet.
https://vegan-dogfood.co.uk/2022/02/23/for-the-love-of-greyhounds/
If trained vets are yet to be convinced I wouldn;t try such a thing if I had a dog.Except, again, you are (and unsurprisingly) missing the bigger picture
here. Ok, for the hard of thinking ...
Plant based foods for dogs are relatively new in the mainstream and so
few *professional* (eg, Often paid by someone) are going to go out on a
limb and recommend anything off-piste (as it's seen today) for fear of LITIGATION. The chances are they could be vegan and feed their dog on a
plant based diet (especially if they had done lots of surgery on dogs
with cancers or lack of reaction to antibiotics, likely down to their
meat based diets) but still not officially recommend such to others
because they wouldn't be covered on their insurance. And let's face it,
with sceptics / deniers like you about, if the dog got a cut on it's
paw, it would be down to the fact they were eating a plant based diet.
Many dog owners are incorrectly feeding their dogs (and as with humans,
we have a dog obesity crisis in the UK) and that's less common amongst
those feeding their dogs a balanced plant based diet because those
people are more likely to be looking into their dogs diet more closely.
<snip>
https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/safety-health/recalls-withdrawals
And why we have to store meat below everything else in the fridge so
contaminates can drip onto the other food, use different chopping boards >> for it and wash our hands after even touching fresh chicken.
Yes it's called scince and understanding how things work.Only when you understand it though it appears.
<snip>
At least the French don't generally stand for the same cr*p we do from
our government.
Like burning sheep you mean.What, the French Government burnt sheep alive? It was exactly because
the FRENCH FARMERS weren't willing to accept a crap deal that they
protested that way and whilst it wasn't nice, it confirms my point about
our sheep-like acceptance of how our government treats us.
Logically for people who support the welfare for animals meet in McDs I don;t think so.Possibly not, but again, bigger picture ...
I said to her you can go to mCDs I'm off to the deveonshire arms.Of course you did ...
See, they weren't 'going to McD's', they were 'Meeting at McD's'
something completely different. IN fact, if they went in and used the facilities without buying anything they would be 'costing McD's' and so
a win for animal liberation!
I'm guessing you wouldn't protest outside McD's for your same strange reasons?
<snip>
It can still be a valid means to an end.
But supporting your eniemies finacially or social isn't a good option.
But unlikely.I didn't put any odds on it with my use of the word 'still'. You seem to
be happy to rule unknown, untested or unproven stuff out completely when
I'm saying there will be times when such things are worth doing.
Unless you believe in trickle down economics is another valid means to an end.What???
Getting farmers to transition away from the cruelty that is the
livestock industry is easier when you give them money to support other
options (inc re-wilding). WE give them subsidies for meat, eggs and
dairy so why not stop sponsoring the cruelty and put the money into
transitioning them to something kinder and evolved for 2023.
These farms are pretty much owned by the large componies.Many of them are for sure. Some are still 'family owned' and independent (even though they are often indirectly 'managed' by the supermarkets).
They get substudies from loyal polititaions too.Yup. Many polititions have family / history in the livestock industries
or feel they should support such if present in their constituencies.
<snip>
Given there is no scientific reason why we can't survive on a balanced
vegan diet and for many it's better / healthier than what they were
eating before, doesn't make sense either.
But it is easier if you don't have to watch everything so closely.Ah, like people in the UK / USA do anyway (not) you mean and look where that's got us?
See, veganism isn't a cult you get into, carnism is a cult you get out
of.
How many ordinary people do you think could kill an animal
themselves. in the UK, in 2023?
What is it that allows them to pay
someone else to do it for them? Answer, the indoctrination of people,
the commodification of (some other) species and the disconnection
between the act and the result.
If you stop getting Vit B & D (I think) from say milk as most of the substitudes don;t contain much of itExcept most plant based milks are supplemented and don't have the
if any unless artifically added it won't show up as a deficancy for 3+ years, depending on your age.
negative effects of the milk meant for a different species on us (that
60% of the population are intolerant to as adults).
"Plant milks aren't substitutes for animal milk, animal milks are
substitutes for human milk."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6TXDFp1EcM
But given that both the American and British Dietetic associations stateBut tehy don't state meat will kill you, balance is the key.
that 'A balanced plant based diet is good for all ages', I'm inclined to
go with them over some nutter on the Internet. ;-)
https://www.bda.uk.com/resource/british-dietetic-association-confirms-well-planned-vegan-diets-can-support-healthy-living-in-people-of-all-ages.html
<snip>
Yes once you realsie that they feel pain.I was pretty sure they all felt pain from when I was a child so wouldn't >> the best thing to have been to assume they did?
You can assume anything feels pain even a stuffed toy.Well you *can* but I was talking about normal people. ;-)
<snip>
But talking of gladiators ...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-29723384
yep heard abaout that.
But it;s male aggression it's a natural thing so is compititionYup, so for a completely different reason to us in most cases.
why do you rhink there's so many quiz shows and talant show on TV. Compititon is one of the most basic insticts of all animals.
It ensures survival.
It can, yes, along with rape, incest, murder and kidnapping but we don't
set our moral compass on those as well do we?
<snip>
And it's funny when people resort to using emotive words to describe
things they don't understand or fear.
To us the IRA were terrorists but to the Americans they were freedom
fighters.
Yes well they were both then.Quite, but the use of emotive words in a description indicates or hopes
to force some bias.
'Militant activists' might be used by the press when to an animal lover
they are 'True heroes'. The press will obviously try to frame something
to suit their political / financial (sponsor) bias.
Not certain but one of the reaosn for cruelty is money or rather than saving of it.Yup. Ironically, up and until we are starving even more people trying to
Hence factory farming.
feed 80 billion livestock, the 'industrialisation' of the livestock
industry is the most efficient and the least carbon footprint (over
organic / free range specifically), just not morally acceptable to most people, if they knew or understood anything about it of course. It's
also unsustainable.
and hopefully better for health.Well, up and until the animal get's gassed, a bolt gun to the forehead
or electrocuted and it's throat cut you mean?
We can die while hanggliding or die in a car crash or live in a care home and the most fun thing we do there is fart.Sorry, was that in any way to do with what I was saying?
Yes, 'we' can die doing loads of things, some more necessary than the
other but livestock aren't making that choice, they are being forced,
raped and murdered and we are paying for it (well, not me obviously).
Given most livestock are killed at the age equivalent of a human child,
just how much 'good life' do you think is 'enough'?
No idea .What, because haven't actually thought about it?
https://www.farmtransparency.org/kb/food/abattoirs/age-animals-slaughtered
On Tuesday, 17 January 2023 at 11:48:29 UTC, T i m wrote:
On 16/01/2023 15:37, whisky-dave wrote:
<skimmed and snipped all the crazy cyclic bs replies from w-d>
Cheers, T i m
it's not me that believes that if you see blood it turns you to cannibalism It's not me that believes a vegan dog lived to 189 years old.
It's not me that donates to McDs in exchange for a vegie burger offering.
On 16/01/2023 15:37, whisky-dave wrote:
<skimmed and snipped all the crazy cyclic bs replies from w-d>
Cheers, T i m
On 17/01/2023 13:17, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 17 January 2023 at 11:48:29 UTC, T i m wrote:
On 16/01/2023 15:37, whisky-dave wrote:
<skimmed and snipped all the crazy cyclic bs replies from w-d>
Cheers, T i m
it's not me that believes that if you see blood it turns you to
cannibalism
It's not me that believes a vegan dog lived to 189 years old.
It's not me that donates to McDs in exchange for a vegie burger offering.
OLAS (Oh look, a squirrel!)
Can either of you explain what is happening here, please?
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/254557389
On 17/01/2023 13:17, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 17 January 2023 at 11:48:29 UTC, T i m wrote:
On 16/01/2023 15:37, whisky-dave wrote:
<skimmed and snipped all the crazy cyclic bs replies from w-d>
Cheers, T i m
it's not me that believes that if you see blood it turns you to cannibalism It's not me that believes a vegan dog lived to 189 years old.OLAS (Oh look, a squirrel!)
It's not me that donates to McDs in exchange for a vegie burger offering.
Can either of you explain what is happening here, please?
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/254557389
Thanks.
--
Kind regards,
David
On 17/01/2023 13:42, David Brooks wrote:
On 17/01/2023 13:17, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 17 January 2023 at 11:48:29 UTC, T i m wrote:
On 16/01/2023 15:37, whisky-dave wrote:
<skimmed and snipped all the crazy cyclic bs replies from w-d>
Cheers, T i m
it's not me that believes that if you see blood it turns you to
cannibalism
It's not me that believes a vegan dog lived to 189 years old.
It's not me that donates to McDs in exchange for a vegie burger offering.
OLAS (Oh look, a squirrel!);-)
Can either of you explain what is happening here, please?
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/254557389I can't but there is a good chance w-d will be able to come up with something, even if he has to make it up himself. ;-)
Right, the vegan Pizza I just bought from Lidl and popped in the oven
should be ready ...
. maybe I shouldn't have bought it from them as they
also have a row of animal parts for sale ...?
Cheers, T i m
On Tuesday, 17 January 2023 at 14:52:36 UTC, T i m wrote:
There's plenty of natural habitat destruction just for vegetarian
products (which has been ignored here, or attempted to be blamed on
animal feed, which is simply not correct - I did read a scientific paper
on that one.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, and all that.
On 17/01/2023 16:16, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 17 January 2023 at 14:52:36 UTC, T i m wrote:
[some crap]
Now you know why I stopped WD. I know what I was reading, but realised
it's no good arguing when someone is evangelising.
Andy Hewitt <[email protected]> wrote:
On 17/01/2023 16:16, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 17 January 2023 at 14:52:36 UTC, T i m wrote:
[some crap]
Now you know why I stopped WD. I know what I was reading, but realised
it's no good arguing when someone is evangelising.
Not only evangelising but dogmatic and at times extremist. Also attacking people who disagree with his rather simplistic view.
Wow!
Thunderbird transerred the attachments from my computer to Usenet! :-)
On 17/01/2023 14:52, T i m wrote:
On 17/01/2023 13:42, David Brooks wrote:
On 17/01/2023 13:17, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 17 January 2023 at 11:48:29 UTC, T i m wrote:
On 16/01/2023 15:37, whisky-dave wrote:
<skimmed and snipped all the crazy cyclic bs replies from w-d>
Cheers, T i m
it's not me that believes that if you see blood it turns you to
cannibalism
It's not me that believes a vegan dog lived to 189 years old.
It's not me that donates to McDs in exchange for a vegie burger
offering.
OLAS (Oh look, a squirrel!)
;-)
Can either of you explain what is happening here, please?
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/254557389
I can't but there is a good chance w-d will be able to come up with
something, even if he has to make it up himself. ;-)
The very same URL (as read on screen) first showed one image and when
next I looked it showed the other image.
See here:-
Path: not-for-mail
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:102.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.6.1
Newsgroups: 1.test
From: David Brooks <[email protected]>
Subject: Do these link show the same image?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <lbxxL.272370$[email protected]>
X-Complaints-To: [email protected]
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 13:14:57 UTC
Organization: blocknews - www.blocknews.net
Bytes: 707
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 13:14:56 +0000
X-Received-Bytes: 757
https://discussions.apple.com/profile/etresoft/participation
https://discussions.apple.com/profile/etresoft/participation
On 17/01/2023 20:28, David Brooks wrote:
<snip>
Wow!Is that good?
Thunderbird transerred the attachments from my computer to Usenet! :-)
I have been using TB as my eMail client for ages (Netscape Communicator before that) and apart from the odd glitch over thousands of emails, the
only actually annoying issue is the one I see regularly using it an a
usenet client (where it won't send and I have to save as a draft, close
TB, open TB and then it will send the draft ok. ?
I have been using TB as my eMail client for ages (Netscape
Communicator before that) and apart from the odd glitch over thousands
of emails, the only actually annoying issue is the one I see regularly
using it an a usenet client (where it won't send and I have to save as
a draft, close TB, open TB and then it will send the draft ok. ?
That shouldn't be necessary, T i m!
Are you using Version 102.6.1, first offered to channel users on
December 20, 2022?
If not, may I suggest you 'update'?
https://www.thunderbird.net/en-GB/
On 17/01/2023 21:13, David Brooks wrote:
<snip>
I have been using TB as my eMail client for ages (Netscape
Communicator before that) and apart from the odd glitch over
thousands of emails, the only actually annoying issue is the one I
see regularly using it an a usenet client (where it won't send and I
have to save as a draft, close TB, open TB and then it will send the
draft ok. ?
That shouldn't be necessary, T i m!
Erm, I know. I only started using TB for usenet because I moved from my
Mac Mini / XP and a very early version of Free Agent to a home made ITX
mini PC running W10. I didn't really get on with the latest Agent so
started using TB instead and the first time I've had issues accessing
usenet probably ever.
Also tried different news servers but with the same results.
Are you using Version 102.6.1, first offered to channel users on
December 20, 2022?
102.6.1 (64-bit) to yup.
Generally keep my stuff up-to-date David.
If not, may I suggest you 'update'?
https://www.thunderbird.net/en-GB/
This issue is widely reported and I have tried most of the steps I've
found so far to resolve it with no success.
On 17/01/2023 16:16, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 17 January 2023 at 14:52:36 UTC, T i m wrote:[some crap]
Now you know why I stopped WD. I know what I was reading, but realised
it's no good arguing when someone is evangelising.
You've covered many of the points I was trying to get to (but lost the will). Such as, yes, I was doing my own research, and yes, I question
the validity of it *all*.
I also know some of the behind the scenes processes too, and the scale
of the BS out on the public domain is astonishing.
You probably wouldn't be surprised that most of our sources of food, at
some point in the supply chain, will have unethical, or environmental impacts. Economics, and the need to make a profit (especially if there
are share holders to satisfy), over-ride in the end.
Quite a lot of by-product from vegetarian products ends up as animal
feed, or going into things like glues, and even into oil drilling fluids (that one is particularly ironic).
There's plenty of natural habitat destruction just for vegetarian
products (which has been ignored here, or attempted to be blamed on
animal feed, which is simply not correct - I did read a scientific paper
on that one.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, and all that.
To be honest, I've seen the decline of usenet ever more here. I'd rather
see it used appropriately, to discuss whatever subject is heading the
group title. There are plenty of forums that do adhere to that, and will move, or delete, such as we've seen in the last couple of years or so
(not just this thread).
So, on that note, I'm going to continue using Apple Products, as long as
I can afford to (or buy used, as I often have). As I believe they have a longer lifespan than most other similar products, which can only be
better for the planet if I'm not discarding them so quickly ;-).
--
Andy H
Well it's good to learn that you have experience of using a Mac! 🙂
This issue is widely reported and I have tried most of the steps I've
found so far to resolve it with no success.
My only other suggestion is for you to uninstall Thunderbird from the computer you use to connect to Usenet ..... and then make a fresh installation.
There's a link to the Official Website here (scroll down!) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Thunderbird
Andy Hewitt <[email protected]> wrote:
On 17/01/2023 16:16, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 17 January 2023 at 14:52:36 UTC, T i m wrote:
[some crap]
Now you know why I stopped WD. I know what I was reading, but realised
it's no good arguing when someone is evangelising.
Not only evangelising but dogmatic and at times extremist.
On Tuesday, 17 January 2023 at 16:55:12 UTC, Andy Hewitt wrote:
So, on that note, I'm going to continue using Apple Products, as long as
I can afford to (or buy used, as I often have). As I believe they have a
longer lifespan than most other similar products, which can only be
better for the planet if I'm not discarding them so quickly ;-).
Yep, me too even if the avaergae moron can't change a battery in their (i)phone
because it's not worth changing because a new phone came out 3 months later.
I'm still on my iPhone7 and 2014 iMac
Nothing new has come out yet to make me want to upgrade the studioi Macs are tempting
but not tempting enough for the £3.5k I'd have to spend .
Yep, evangalists of all types are shit-heads and a waste of time.
But I support the idea of more people eating less meat and beiong kinder to animals ,
On 18/01/2023 13:50, whisky-dave wrote:
<snip>
Yep, evangalists of all types are shit-heads and a waste of time.
I just had to reply to this as it's so funny (well, sad really but if
you don't laugh ...).
Crazy Dave doesn't like evangelists (often the std dismissive name
ignorant and confused people use for the people doing things they don't understand) whilst telling us he goes to Animal Liberation events! Or is
that ok as long as no one sees you or knows that you are 'supporting',
you know, supporting it 'quietly' or just letting the others do the
actual work that makes a difference?
It sounds very much like what most carnists say when they start off with their "I respect your choice to be vegan but .... " (where the unsaid
bit is actually "I just can't stop causing animals to suffer and die or
doing untold damage to the natural habitat and so wildlife and so all
life on this planet".
"Oh no, I'm not going to give up causing animals to die, I thought you
meant putting a sticker in my car or something ..."
If you aren't part of the solution you are part of the problem.
https://youtu.be/cL0__jt7yxA?t=485
But I support the idea of more people eating less meat and beiong
kinder to animals ,
Awww, that's nice (reducetarianism), nice that you support what most professionals (especially the scientists and human heath specialists
tell us) but how do you do that exactly? Just eating less meat but
therefore still causing unnecessary suffering and death to just *some* animals?
I'm sure that's a massive comfort to all the animals that you still pay
to make suffer and die (not).
https://www.stopgaschambers.org/footage
Like only hitting your wife / dog / child once a month instead of once a week, a step in the right direction? And of course the logical / adult /
kind thing to do is as soon as the Police / Social Workers have left is
to take it out on the victims a bit more!
"Eww, a vegan annoyed me so I'm going to go and eat some more meat ... "
The problem we all this quiet acceptance of all the violence going on
against animals is that it actually helps propagate it and we don't have
time for that any more.
On 18/01/2023 12:22, David Brooks wrote:
<snip>
Well it's good to learn that you have experience of using a Mac! 🙂
Further I've had experience of Macs over a fairly long time as I had an
SE on my Novell test network at home using Appletalk, along with a PC
using Token Ring and the rest of the PC's on my LAN over Thin Ethernet. ;-)
I also have an early Apple laptop, bought, installed and maintained
daughters Mini when she was on a Graphics Design course, upgraded (RAM,
OS, Addons like printers, scanners and dial-up modems then Ethernet to
WiFi) on the various Macs Dad had over the years.
I have also upgraded and repaired a few Macs and MacBooks for other
people (upgraded RAM, replaced failed HDDs etc) and upgraded OSX on many more.
The most important one was a MacBook Pro that a young lad had borrowed
off his grandad and then accidentally tipped and entire cup of tea into.
He called me in a panic and I said he could drop it down. I stripped it
down (including the keyboard), washed all that was washable (inc the mainboard) in warm slightly soapy water, rinsed in fresh water, gently
blew dry with my airline and then left in the airing cupboard to dry for
a couple of days. Put it back together and called him for the password
so I could check it all. I'm not sure if grandad ever found out. ;-)
I even provided an iMac to our local PC shop for the odd time he got a
Apple Fanboi wanting to use the Internet or interface something Appley
but it wasn't used that often. He wouldn't generally take Apple stuff in
for repair unless 1) he liked the customer and 2) I happened to be there
at the time and offered to help. ;-)
Mum is now on her 3rd iPhone and 2nd iPad and I generally do all the
admin stuff on those for her (inc paying for iCloud for her to allow her
to backup and sync her phone and pad to each other and iCloud).
However, whilst I have had a fair bit of hardware experience with Macs
over the years, I've not *used* them for much because 1) I'm a hardware
tech and there were far too many instances where I couldn't get my
hardware to work with Macs, hardware that was 'Designed for' Windows in
most cases and the object was to use the hardware I had or wanted, not
have the tail wag the dog and have to buy 'Apple friendly' stuff (that
was often more expensive and less choice) and 2) because I'm not a
secretary / typist / graphics designer. ;-)
The same applies to my *use* of Linux. Along with all the machine I have
here that are dual boot (Win / Lin), mostly 'just because' and less
often because I can actually make use of Linux (like Gparted or running
from an external drive) I actually have a couple of Linux boxen running
on my LAN, like my OMV NAS and a Test TV server but again (and probably
in my Synology NAS and TV's), whilst Linux has the advantage of being
able to run on hardware I have and can build / mix-n-match easily, I
have often seen the disadvantage of having to make use of drivers that
have had to be 'reverse engineered' from Windows ones and often quite
old or missing features, including performance (especially on Graphics cards).
<snip>
This issue is widely reported and I have tried most of the steps I've
found so far to resolve it with no success.
My only other suggestion is for you to uninstall Thunderbird from the
computer you use to connect to Usenet ..... and then make a fresh
installation.
Hmm. I have multiple accounts going back many years so I'd rather not.
And uninstalling and re-installing isn't typically something I do on
Windows (in spite of the stereotype). ;-)
There's a link to the Official Website here (scroll down!)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Thunderbird
I have the latest installer on my NAS as I often install it on PC's I'm playing with, like the the 4 laptops I ran up and updated yesterday. The
two that dual boot into Linux may well have updated TB in amongst
everything else. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
whisky-dave <[email protected]> wrote:
I'm still on my iPhone7 and 2014 iMac
Nothing new has come out yet to make me want to upgrade the studioi Macs are tempting
but not tempting enough for the £3.5k I'd have to spend .
Have a look at the new mini announced yesterday. There's quite a lot of power for not a lot of money (for a Mac).
Have you any experience of using EtreCkeck?
Have you any experience of using EtreCkeck? https://etresoft.com/en/welcome.html
On 18/01/2023 13:18, T i m wrote:
On 18/01/2023 12:22, David Brooks wrote:
<snip>
Well it's good to learn that you have experience of using a Mac! 🙂
Further I've had experience of Macs over a fairly long time as I had
an SE on my Novell test network at home using Appletalk, along with a
PC using Token Ring and the rest of the PC's on my LAN over Thin
Ethernet. ;-)
<*GULP*>
Mum is now on her 3rd iPhone and 2nd iPad and I generally do all the
admin stuff on those for her (inc paying for iCloud for her to allow
her to backup and sync her phone and pad to each other and iCloud).
You are a good man.
I do the sme for my sister, who has just turned 86.
Hmm. I have multiple accounts going back many years so I'd rather not.
And uninstalling and re-installing isn't typically something I do on
Windows (in spite of the stereotype). ;-)
I don't understand why you cannot have a brand new installation of Thunderbird on your Usenet-active computer. Try it and see!
Have you any experience of using EtreCkeck? https://etresoft.com/en/welcome.html
The problem we all this quiet acceptance of all the violence going on
against animals is that it actually helps propagate it and we don't
have time for that any more.
I've read all that you say, Tim.
I respect your dedication to your cause
- and yes, I'm feeling somewhat
guilty.
On 18/01/2023 20:59, David Brooks wrote:
On 18/01/2023 13:18, T i m wrote:
On 18/01/2023 12:22, David Brooks wrote:
<snip>
Well it's good to learn that you have experience of using a Mac! 🙂
Further I've had experience of Macs over a fairly long time as I had
an SE on my Novell test network at home using Appletalk, along with a
PC using Token Ring and the rest of the PC's on my LAN over Thin
Ethernet. ;-)
<*GULP*>
Well, apart from my general / personal interest I was a Certified Novell Instructor, a Microsoft Certified Trainer and an A+ Certified Trainer
and I liked to make sure I had real world experience around the things I
was covering on the courses. In fact, I actively refused to cover any
subject I hadn't actually lived, in my previous 'Network manager' role
or personal interests out of principle as I didn't feel I could give the delegates good VFM without.
And that felt important when I had say 10 delegates in front of me for a
week on the Novell 'Service and Support' course and knowing they had all
paid £2k each (and this was a few years back now)!
<snip>
Mum is now on her 3rd iPhone and 2nd iPad and I generally do all the
admin stuff on those for her (inc paying for iCloud for her to allow
her to backup and sync her phone and pad to each other and iCloud).
You are a good man.
Meh. They were / are my parents and they don't last for ever so you do
what you can eh?
That was actually difficult for me Dad as he was a very intelligent and worldly travelled man (ex Merchant Navy, Oil Tankers, first mate on a Captains ticket) and about the only thing I could help him on with his
IT stuff.
So when dial-up access / email / Internet was getting to a point where
it was 'affordable' to most, I set him up with a MoDem on his CRT iMac
and provided him with an eMail address and Inet access PAYG etc.
It all worked (Mac version of the USRobotics Sportster) and he sent /
replied to a few test eMails etc but one day It all came back in a
carrier bag with our daughter (my Mum was her child minder) with a
'Thanks but no thanks'.
OK, he didn't ask for it, he didn't see the need so gave it back.
A year later the Co he was a consultant for (and the BSI I think) went paperless and so he paid a @mac man' £250 to basically install the very
same kit I had? He simply couldn't ask me after returning the gear
because of his pride (and I wouldn't have complained or said 'told you
so' etc) but I still had all the support questions. ;-)
Dad: Hello Tim, I can get any emails?
Me: Ok, can you get on the Internet?
Dad: I don't know, I haven't tried?
Me: Ok, well hang up this call and see if you can and if not, try
resetting the router and trying accessing the Internet or your eMails
again. If you get stuck, give me a ring and I'll pop straight round.
I would then generally get a 'Testing' and 'thanks' email soon after. ;-)
I do the sme for my sister, who has just turned 86.
My sister is a luddite so I don't even try to get involved here!
<snip>
Hmm. I have multiple accounts going back many years so I'd rather
not. And uninstalling and re-installing isn't typically something I
do on Windows (in spite of the stereotype). ;-)
I don't understand why you cannot have a brand new installation of
Thunderbird on your Usenet-active computer. Try it and see!
What, installing over the top you mean? I *would* if I found any
suggestion out there that doing so would fix the problem and I could do
so without the risk of losing access to several accounts and thousands
of emails (and not having to restore from backups etc)? ;-(
<snip>
Have you any experience of using EtreCkeck?
https://etresoft.com/en/welcome.html
No, sorry David. Even though I had 10.4 on my Mac Mini a Bootcamp away,
I rarely used OSX because I simply didn't need to? XP did all *I* wanted
to do and it did more than I could have done with OSX so the only times
I ever bothered was to keep it up-to-date and to just see if it would
also see new hardware, and if it did, did it offer anything more /
better than I got from Windows and the answer was generally no.
So the only time I really see OSX now is when helping others and that is
more generally more at a hardware or OS level, not really any apps etc.
The grandad of the lad who spilled tea in his MBP had TFT iMac. He was
'sold' it because it was 'easier / safer' than Windows. I was often
round there helping him try to do stuff in a Windows-centric world and
it was funny to see all the Windows apps he had downloaded and that
'didn't work'. Mind you, I used to see the exact same issue on the Linux desktop I setup for my other BIL. ;-)
*All read and understood*, T i m. I do so enjoy your stories! :-)
Going back to Thunderbird!
If you have a stand-alone computer you can use to connect to the
Internet solely for Usenet purposes
I can envisage no reason why you
cannot uninstall Thunderbird from it and then reinstall Thunderbird -
and set it up solely for Newsgroup/Usenet use.
By so doing, you can test
that you do NOT still get the 'send' problem which you have desribed.
On 19/01/2023 14:46, David Brooks wrote:
<snip>
-)
*All read and understood*, T i m. I do so enjoy your stories! :-)
I would love to hear that you like the ones about animal cruelty enough
to actually make some lifestyle changes yourself?
We just walked up the shops and on the way saw a lady who was out with
what looked like her elderly dog. Turns out she had rescued him in India
from the people who also beat his brothers and sisters to death and he
was in fact only 2 years old and his poor gait was down to nerve damage
to his spine from the beating.
I got down on my knees and she gave me some treats to give to him but he
was (rightly) very nervous of strangers, grabbing the treat then
retreating to the security of his rescuer.
Going back to Thunderbird!
If you have a stand-alone computer you can use to connect to the
Internet solely for Usenet purposes
I have (several). ;-)
I can envisage no reason why you
cannot uninstall Thunderbird from it and then reinstall Thunderbird -
and set it up solely for Newsgroup/Usenet use.
Yeah, I could do that.
By so doing, you can testI can (and may well do) but, I'm far from alone with this problem and I
that you do NOT still get the 'send' problem which you have desribed.
have read of many different 'solutions' and none that seemed to come up
as 'the' solution?
Someone offers a solution.
10 people try it and report that it didn't work for them (and how many
also tried it but didn't report back) then often the OP comes back
saying they were premature and the solution doesn't now work for them
either. ;-(
I've tried two different newsservers as well (Individual and ES).
On 19/01/2023 18:48, T i m wrote:
On 19/01/2023 14:46, David Brooks wrote:
<snip>
-)
*All read and understood*, T i m. I do so enjoy your stories! :-)
I would love to hear that you like the ones about animal cruelty
enough to actually make some lifestyle changes yourself?
I recall that I did take action - around 1971 - when I had two small boys.
I took myself, by appointment, to an abbatoir in Somerton, Somerset, to
see for myself what actually happened when an animal was killed for the
meat.
The bullock was herded into a pen, between scaffollding poles if
you like and, IIRC, a rack was dropped over its neck from above to hold
it imobile. A gun was held up between its eyes and a single shot fired.
This all took no more than a minute. The animal collapsed
and no sooner
had it done so it
was lifted into a vertical position by a block and
tackle attached to its
back legs. In front of my eyes I saw its
throat
cut and watched the blood flow freely onto the floor, where it drained
away quicky into purpose made gutters.
Within minutes the animal was skinned and the carcus hung up on
butchers hooks ready to be prepared for the shop out-front. There was no 'cruelty' inflicted on the animal; everything was strictly clinical and efficient.
It was a very moving and humbling experience which I have never
forgotten.
I just LOVE 'cows'.
I always stop and talk to them whenever I
have the opportunity and love to see them grazing in our fields.
They
wouldn't, of course, be there at all if we didn't breed them for food.
https://jmp.sh/8CpSZ0fq
We just walked up the shops and on the way saw a lady who was out with
what looked like her elderly dog. Turns out she had rescued him in
India from the people who also beat his brothers and sisters to death
and he was in fact only 2 years old and his poor gait was down to
nerve damage to his spine from the beating.
I got down on my knees and she gave me some treats to give to him but
he was (rightly) very nervous of strangers, grabbing the treat then
retreating to the security of his rescuer.
I do exactly the same things! :-D
Yeah, I could do that.
So ...... will you?
By so doing, you can testI can (and may well do) but, I'm far from alone with this problem and
that you do NOT still get the 'send' problem which you have desribed.
I have read of many different 'solutions' and none that seemed to come
up as 'the' solution?
Maybe all of those other folk should do as I'm suggesting to you?!!!
Someone offers a solution.
10 people try it and report that it didn't work for them (and how many
also tried it but didn't report back) then often the OP comes back
saying they were premature and the solution doesn't now work for them
either. ;-(
I've tried two different newsservers as well (Individual and ES).
I look forward to hearing your results!
On 19/01/2023 20:27, David Brooks wrote:
On 19/01/2023 18:48, T i m wrote:
On 19/01/2023 14:46, David Brooks wrote:
<snip>
-)
*All read and understood*, T i m. I do so enjoy your stories! :-)
I would love to hear that you like the ones about animal cruelty
enough to actually make some lifestyle changes yourself?
I recall that I did take action - around 1971 - when I had two small
boys.
I took myself, by appointment, to an abbatoir in Somerton, Somerset, to
see for myself what actually happened when an animal was killed for
the meat.
That's a good / brave thing.
The bullock was herded into a pen, between scaffollding poles if you
like and, IIRC, a rack was dropped over its neck from above to hold it
imobile. A gun was held up between its eyes and a single shot fired.
This all took no more than a minute. The animal collapsed
Yes, that was the stunning bit ... and he wasn't an 'it' he was a living sentient creature. Would you refer to your dog as 'it'?
THe problem with this is it all goes towards the de-personalisation of
what is an individual and sentient animal and turning them into just a commodity.
and no sooner had it done so it
He
was lifted into a vertical position by a block and tackle attached to its
His
back legs. In front of my eyes I saw its
His.
throat cut and watched the blood flow freely onto the floor, where it
drained away quicky into purpose made gutters.
Yup, that was when he was bled to death.
Unfortunately and ignoring what sort of 'life' they have had up to that point, all the handling, transport, injections, the ramp up to the slaughterhouse and killing box etc, none of which was likely to be good
for the animal or in their best interests.
Within minutes the animal was skinned and the carcus hung up on
butchers hooks ready to be prepared for the shop out-front. There was
no 'cruelty' inflicted on the animal; everything was strictly clinical
and efficient.
Other than the above and the key point of an animal losing their life unnecessarily. Now we also have the GW gasses, pollution, water,
recourse, food, environmental damage, antibiotic resistance and
unsustainably (for 8B people) on top of the cruelty stuff.
It was a very moving and humbling experience which I have never
forgotten.
Except the chances are if it was introduced to you in a clinical / 'has
to happen' setting you would be likely to suppress your natural
instincts. We are tribal people and tend to go along with stuff when we
see others doing it (Groupthink).
"Groupthink is a psychological phenomenon in which people strive for consensus within a group. In many cases, people will set aside their own personal beliefs or adopt the opinion of the rest of the group."
Like how youths get into crime or smoking or graffiti when all their
mates are doing it when without they wouldn't have as they individually
knew it to be wrong.
I just LOVE 'cows'.
Not sure that's possible David. Not really. You don't generally kill for unjustifiable reasons someone you love?
I get why you may (now, because of the conditioning) think those two
things could be mutually acceptable but they obviously aren't.
I always stop and talk to them whenever I have the opportunity and
love to see them grazing in our fields.
Yeah, that bit makes sense at least because they are lovely sentient sensitive and inquisitive creatures with the right to a long and natural life.
They wouldn't, of course, be there at all if we didn't breed them for
food.
Well, any wild ones would be but if they wouldn't be there naturally
that should be a good indicator that they shouldn't be there at all?
The UK was mostly covered with trees and that ecosystem supported a
massive quantity of wildlife. We chopped most of them down to both use
the timber to build warships and to clear ground for grazing animals and growing crops. Now the UK is the most wildlife deplete countries in the world.
https://www.wwf.org.uk/future-of-uk-nature
"Farmland covers 70% of the UK. Since the 1970s, farming has simplified
and intensified, providing less and less habitat for native wildlife.
While the rate of such habitat loss has slowed in recent times, the
situation is still getting worse. A third of agricultural land is used
to grow crops, many of which are fed to animals."
We are in the process of trying to fix that by converting old dairy land
(as the dairies close, dairy also producing about 50% of our cow flesh)
and so grazing back to the wild in the effort to encourage the wildlife
we need (to survive) back.
https://jmp.sh/8CpSZ0fq
"The site ahead may contain harmful programs"
We just walked up the shops and on the way saw a lady who was out
with what looked like her elderly dog. Turns out she had rescued him
in India from the people who also beat his brothers and sisters to
death and he was in fact only 2 years old and his poor gait was down
to nerve damage to his spine from the beating.
I got down on my knees and she gave me some treats to give to him but
he was (rightly) very nervous of strangers, grabbing the treat then
retreating to the security of his rescuer.
I do exactly the same things! :-D
Then that suggests that outside the indoctrination and normalisation of taking an innocent creatures life for no good reason that you have been programmed with, you are an animal lover (if only you better aligned
your actions with your morals), or a 'pet lover' at least?
<snip>
Yeah, I could do that.
So ...... will you?
I can do, when I get a slot. Loads of things going on and having to used
an extra PC just for usenet (even for testing) is a PITA, especially
because I know all I have to save the file as a draft, close TB, open TB
and it will then send ok?
By so doing, you can testI can (and may well do) but, I'm far from alone with this problem and
that you do NOT still get the 'send' problem which you have desribed.
I have read of many different 'solutions' and none that seemed to
come up as 'the' solution?
Maybe all of those other folk should do as I'm suggesting to you?!!!
See above and as I said, most people seem to have tried everything,
including that.
Someone offers a solution.
10 people try it and report that it didn't work for them (and how
many also tried it but didn't report back) then often the OP comes
back saying they were premature and the solution doesn't now work for
them either. ;-(
I've tried two different newsservers as well (Individual and ES).
I look forward to hearing your results!
We are looking after daughters dog today then the Mrs will be staying
over at daughters overnight to leave me clear to do other (important)
stuff. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
I very much value your comprehensive reply, T i m.
Thank you. :-)
Here's a Screenshot of what you would see in you opened the Jumpshare
link: https://ibb.co/cxtcb7B
I had no idea what has caused the apparent problem with Jumpshare -
until I looked here!
https://twitter.com/Jumpshare/status/1615725616061456386
On 18/01/2023 13:50, whisky-dave wrote:
<snip>
Yep, evangalists of all types are shit-heads and a waste of time.I just had to reply to this as it's so funny (well, sad really but if
you don't laugh ...).
Crazy Dave doesn't like evangelists (often the std dismissive name
ignorant and confused people use for the people doing things they don't understand)
whilst telling us he goes to Animal Liberation events!
Or is
that ok as long as no one sees you or knows that you are 'supporting',
you know, supporting it 'quietly' or just letting the others do the
actual work that makes a difference?
It sounds very much like what most carnists.
say when they start off with their "I respect your choice to be vegan but
bit is actually "I just can't stop causing animals to suffer and die or
doing untold damage to the natural habitat and so wildlife and so all
life on this planet".
"Oh no, I'm not going to give up causing animals to die, I thought you
meant putting a sticker in my car or something ..."
If you aren't part of the solution you are part of the problem.
https://youtu.be/cL0__jt7yxA?t=485
But I support the idea of more people eating less meat and beiong kinder to animals ,Awww, that's nice (reducetarianism), nice that you support what most professionals (especially the scientists and human heath specialists
tell us) but how do you do that exactly? Just eating less meat but
therefore still causing unnecessary suffering and death to just *some* animals?
I'm sure that's a massive comfort to all the animals that you still pay
to make suffer and die (not).
https://www.stopgaschambers.org/footage
Like only hitting your wife / dog / child once a month instead of once a week, a step in the right direction?
And of course the logical / adult /
kind thing to do is as soon as the Police / Social Workers have left is
to take it out on the victims a bit more!
"Eww, a vegan annoyed me so I'm going to go and eat some more meat ... "
The problem we all this quiet acceptance of all the violence going on
against animals is that it actually helps propagate it and we don't have
time for that any more.
Cheers, T i m
Am 18.01.23 um 19:36 schrieb Chris:
whisky-dave <[email protected]> wrote:
I'm still on my iPhone7 and 2014 iMac
Nothing new has come out yet to make me want to upgrade the studioi Macs are tempting
but not tempting enough for the £3.5k I'd have to spend .
Have a look at the new mini announced yesterday. There's quite a lot of power for not a lot of money (for a Mac).This one is really tempting!
A lot of Bang for the Buck!
--
Gutta cavat lapidem (Ovid)
On 20/01/2023 09:34, T i m wrote:
On 19/01/2023 20:27, David Brooks wrote:
On 19/01/2023 18:48, T i m wrote:
On 19/01/2023 14:46, David Brooks wrote:
<snip>
-)
*All read and understood*, T i m. I do so enjoy your stories! :-)
I would love to hear that you like the ones about animal cruelty
enough to actually make some lifestyle changes yourself?
I recall that I did take action - around 1971 - when I had two small
boys.
I took myself, by appointment, to an abbatoir in Somerton, Somerset, to
see for myself what actually happened when an animal was killed for
the meat.
That's a good / brave thing.
The bullock was herded into a pen, between scaffollding poles if you
like and, IIRC, a rack was dropped over its neck from above to hold it
imobile. A gun was held up between its eyes and a single shot fired.
This all took no more than a minute. The animal collapsed
Yes, that was the stunning bit ... and he wasn't an 'it' he was a living
sentient creature. Would you refer to your dog as 'it'?
THe problem with this is it all goes towards the de-personalisation of
what is an individual and sentient animal and turning them into just a
commodity.
and no sooner had it done so it
He
was lifted into a vertical position by a block and tackle attached to its >>His
back legs. In front of my eyes I saw its
His.
throat cut and watched the blood flow freely onto the floor, where it
drained away quicky into purpose made gutters.
Yup, that was when he was bled to death.
Unfortunately and ignoring what sort of 'life' they have had up to that
point, all the handling, transport, injections, the ramp up to the
slaughterhouse and killing box etc, none of which was likely to be good
for the animal or in their best interests.
Within minutes the animal was skinned and the carcus hung up on
butchers hooks ready to be prepared for the shop out-front. There was
no 'cruelty' inflicted on the animal; everything was strictly clinical
and efficient.
Other than the above and the key point of an animal losing their life
unnecessarily. Now we also have the GW gasses, pollution, water,
recourse, food, environmental damage, antibiotic resistance and
unsustainably (for 8B people) on top of the cruelty stuff.
It was a very moving and humbling experience which I have never
forgotten.
Except the chances are if it was introduced to you in a clinical / 'has
to happen' setting you would be likely to suppress your natural
instincts. We are tribal people and tend to go along with stuff when we
see others doing it (Groupthink).
"Groupthink is a psychological phenomenon in which people strive for
consensus within a group. In many cases, people will set aside their own
personal beliefs or adopt the opinion of the rest of the group."
Like how youths get into crime or smoking or graffiti when all their
mates are doing it when without they wouldn't have as they individually
knew it to be wrong.
I just LOVE 'cows'.
Not sure that's possible David. Not really. You don't generally kill for
unjustifiable reasons someone you love?
I get why you may (now, because of the conditioning) think those two
things could be mutually acceptable but they obviously aren't.
I always stop and talk to them whenever I have the opportunity and
love to see them grazing in our fields.
Yeah, that bit makes sense at least because they are lovely sentient
sensitive and inquisitive creatures with the right to a long and natural
life.
They wouldn't, of course, be there at all if we didn't breed them for
food.
Well, any wild ones would be but if they wouldn't be there naturally
that should be a good indicator that they shouldn't be there at all?
The UK was mostly covered with trees and that ecosystem supported a
massive quantity of wildlife. We chopped most of them down to both use
the timber to build warships and to clear ground for grazing animals and
growing crops. Now the UK is the most wildlife deplete countries in the
world.
https://www.wwf.org.uk/future-of-uk-nature
"Farmland covers 70% of the UK. Since the 1970s, farming has simplified
and intensified, providing less and less habitat for native wildlife.
While the rate of such habitat loss has slowed in recent times, the
situation is still getting worse. A third of agricultural land is used
to grow crops, many of which are fed to animals."
We are in the process of trying to fix that by converting old dairy land
(as the dairies close, dairy also producing about 50% of our cow flesh)
and so grazing back to the wild in the effort to encourage the wildlife
we need (to survive) back.
https://jmp.sh/8CpSZ0fq
"The site ahead may contain harmful programs"
We just walked up the shops and on the way saw a lady who was out
with what looked like her elderly dog. Turns out she had rescued him
in India from the people who also beat his brothers and sisters to
death and he was in fact only 2 years old and his poor gait was down
to nerve damage to his spine from the beating.
I got down on my knees and she gave me some treats to give to him but
he was (rightly) very nervous of strangers, grabbing the treat then
retreating to the security of his rescuer.
I do exactly the same things! :-D
Then that suggests that outside the indoctrination and normalisation of
taking an innocent creatures life for no good reason that you have been
programmed with, you are an animal lover (if only you better aligned
your actions with your morals), or a 'pet lover' at least?
<snip>
Yeah, I could do that.
So ...... will you?
I can do, when I get a slot. Loads of things going on and having to used
an extra PC just for usenet (even for testing) is a PITA, especially
because I know all I have to save the file as a draft, close TB, open TB
and it will then send ok?
By so doing, you can testI can (and may well do) but, I'm far from alone with this problem and
that you do NOT still get the 'send' problem which you have desribed. >>>>>
I have read of many different 'solutions' and none that seemed to
come up as 'the' solution?
Maybe all of those other folk should do as I'm suggesting to you?!!!
See above and as I said, most people seem to have tried everything,
including that.
Someone offers a solution.
10 people try it and report that it didn't work for them (and how
many also tried it but didn't report back) then often the OP comes
back saying they were premature and the solution doesn't now work for
them either. ;-(
I've tried two different newsservers as well (Individual and ES).
I look forward to hearing your results!
We are looking after daughters dog today then the Mrs will be staying
over at daughters overnight to leave me clear to do other (important)
stuff. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
I very much value your comprehensive reply, T i m.
Thank you. :-)
Here's a Screenshot of what you would see in you opened the Jumpshare
link: https://ibb.co/cxtcb7B
I had no idea what has caused the apparent problem with Jumpshare -
until I looked here!
https://twitter.com/Jumpshare/status/1615725616061456386
Crazy Dave doesn't like evangelists (often the std dismissive name
ignorant and confused people use for the people doing things they don't
understand)
But it's those that preach to others
the worst of which tell lies in order to further their cause.
One or two charity fund rasing events in the last 20 years.
Hardly a season ticket holder.
Or is
that ok as long as no one sees you or knows that you are 'supporting',
you know, supporting it 'quietly' or just letting the others do the
actual work that makes a difference?
I was supporting the fund raising efforts.
It sounds very much like what most carnists.
I don't know any carnists.
Like only hitting your wife / dog / child once a month instead of once a
week, a step in the right direction?
Yep that's how it starts one small step for man etc....
And of course the logical / adult /
kind thing to do is as soon as the Police / Social Workers have left is
to take it out on the victims a bit more!
you can blame that on the wokes .
and those that say smacking a child is wrong .
"Eww, a vegan annoyed me so I'm going to go and eat some more meat ... "
They only annoy me when they lie to me.
The problem we all this quiet acceptance of all the violence going on
against animals is that it actually helps propagate it and we don't have
time for that any more.
And yet you help propagate it by giving money to McDs
I don't know any carnists.
Of course you do (but I understand why you might not realise you do).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/carnist
On Jan 20, 2023 at 4:05:55 AM MST, "David Brooks" wrote <oAuyL.205844$[email protected]>:
[....]
Here's a Screenshot of what you would see in you opened the Jumpshare
link: https://ibb.co/cxtcb7B
I had no idea what has caused the apparent problem with Jumpshare -
until I looked here!
https://twitter.com/Jumpshare/status/1615725616061456386
Ah... I saw they had issues but did not know the full reason. Makes sense and glad they are dealing with it.
I might use another service if they do not handle it quickly.
On 20/01/2023 11:05, David Brooks wrote:
<snip>
I very much value your comprehensive reply, T i m.
It was offered for the animals.
Thank you. :-)
On their behalf you are welcome. ;-)
Here's a Screenshot of what you would see in you opened the Jumpshare
link: https://ibb.co/cxtcb7B
Ah, a herd of innocent and sentient animals on death row. ;-(
Because all this animal exploitation is about money, it's not uncommon
to just 'finish' cows that have spent most of their lives in a concrete building on grass as they can then advertise the meat as 'grass fed' and charge more. Meat doesn't taste of much which is why we often make it
taste of something using processing, herbs or spices (aka 'plants'). ;-)
https://naturewayfarm.co.uk/nutrition/do-you-make-these-4-mistakes-when-buying-grass-fed-beef-grass-fed-beef-101-series/
"How do you find real grass fed beef that only had grass all its life?
Look for beef that is labelled as 100% grass fed or carries a Pasture
For Life Certification. No, you won’t find such meat in a supermarket."
I had no idea what has caused the apparent problem with Jumpshare -Nice.
until I looked here!
https://twitter.com/Jumpshare/status/1615725616061456386
On 20/01/2023 17:11, Snit wrote:
On Jan 20, 2023 at 4:05:55 AM MST, "David Brooks" wrote
<oAuyL.205844$[email protected]>:
[....]
Here's a Screenshot of what you would see in you opened the Jumpshare
link: https://ibb.co/cxtcb7B
I had no idea what has caused the apparent problem with Jumpshare -
until I looked here!
https://twitter.com/Jumpshare/status/1615725616061456386
Ah... I saw they had issues but did not know the full reason. Makes sense and
glad they are dealing with it.
I might use another service if they do not handle it quickly.
It seems as if all is now well, Snit! :-)
Here's confirmation!
https://jmp.sh/OXiW71OO
On Jan 20, 2023 at 10:40:19 AM MST, "David Brooks" wrote <7mAyL.210340$[email protected]>:
On 20/01/2023 17:11, Snit wrote:
On Jan 20, 2023 at 4:05:55 AM MST, "David Brooks" wrote
<oAuyL.205844$[email protected]>:
[....]
Here's a Screenshot of what you would see in you opened the Jumpshare
link: https://ibb.co/cxtcb7B
I had no idea what has caused the apparent problem with Jumpshare -
until I looked here!
https://twitter.com/Jumpshare/status/1615725616061456386
Ah... I saw they had issues but did not know the full reason. Makes sense and
glad they are dealing with it.
I might use another service if they do not handle it quickly.
It seems as if all is now well, Snit! :-)
Here's confirmation!
https://jmp.sh/OXiW71OO
Still get the error on Safari... but I am sure it will catch up.
On 20/01/2023 17:48, Snit wrote:
On Jan 20, 2023 at 10:40:19 AM MST, "David Brooks" wrote
<7mAyL.210340$[email protected]>:
On 20/01/2023 17:11, Snit wrote:
On Jan 20, 2023 at 4:05:55 AM MST, "David Brooks" wrote
<oAuyL.205844$[email protected]>:
[....]
Here's a Screenshot of what you would see in you opened the Jumpshare >>>>> link: https://ibb.co/cxtcb7B
I had no idea what has caused the apparent problem with Jumpshare -
until I looked here!
https://twitter.com/Jumpshare/status/1615725616061456386
Ah... I saw they had issues but did not know the full reason. Makes sense and
glad they are dealing with it.
I might use another service if they do not handle it quickly.
It seems as if all is now well, Snit! :-)
Here's confirmation!
https://jmp.sh/OXiW71OO
Still get the error on Safari... but I am sure it will catch up.
Did you get the warning of the link I just posted?
https://jmp.sh/OXiW71OO
I had EXPECTED you to say something like *Wow* Nice pretty cow!
On Wednesday, 18 January 2023 at 21:22:48 UTC, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
Am 18.01.23 um 19:36 schrieb Chris:
whisky-dave <[email protected]> wrote:This one is really tempting!
I'm still on my iPhone7 and 2014 iMac
Nothing new has come out yet to make me want to upgrade the studioi Macs are tempting
but not tempting enough for the £3.5k I'd have to spend .
Have a look at the new mini announced yesterday. There's quite a lot of
power for not a lot of money (for a Mac).
A lot of Bang for the Buck!
Haven't looked at them too closely but by the time I've added extras I;d want it's almost
to the price of the studio.
My main issues is as to whether the Apple monitor is really worth the money asked for
as there are so many good monitors for around half the price.
On Jan 20, 2023 at 11:19:55 AM MST, "David Brooks" wrote <gXAyL.84032$[email protected]>:
On 20/01/2023 17:48, Snit wrote:
On Jan 20, 2023 at 10:40:19 AM MST, "David Brooks" wrote
<7mAyL.210340$[email protected]>:
On 20/01/2023 17:11, Snit wrote:
On Jan 20, 2023 at 4:05:55 AM MST, "David Brooks" wrote
<oAuyL.205844$[email protected]>:
[....]
Here's a Screenshot of what you would see in you opened the Jumpshare >>>>>> link: https://ibb.co/cxtcb7B
I had no idea what has caused the apparent problem with Jumpshare - >>>>>> until I looked here!
https://twitter.com/Jumpshare/status/1615725616061456386
Ah... I saw they had issues but did not know the full reason. Makes sense and
glad they are dealing with it.
I might use another service if they do not handle it quickly.
It seems as if all is now well, Snit! :-)
Here's confirmation!
https://jmp.sh/OXiW71OO
Still get the error on Safari... but I am sure it will catch up.
Did you get the warning of the link I just posted?
https://jmp.sh/OXiW71OO
I had EXPECTED you to say something like *Wow* Nice pretty cow!
I did... but now I do not.
I should have said something. Hopefully you will forgive me. After all, to err
is human, to forgive is bovine.
On 20/01/2023 18:28, Snit wrote:
On Jan 20, 2023 at 11:19:55 AM MST, "David Brooks" wrote
<gXAyL.84032$[email protected]>:
On 20/01/2023 17:48, Snit wrote:
On Jan 20, 2023 at 10:40:19 AM MST, "David Brooks" wrote
<7mAyL.210340$[email protected]>:
On 20/01/2023 17:11, Snit wrote:
On Jan 20, 2023 at 4:05:55 AM MST, "David Brooks" wrote
<oAuyL.205844$[email protected]>:
[....]
Here's a Screenshot of what you would see in you opened the Jumpshare >>>>>>> link: https://ibb.co/cxtcb7B
I had no idea what has caused the apparent problem with Jumpshare - >>>>>>> until I looked here!
https://twitter.com/Jumpshare/status/1615725616061456386
Ah... I saw they had issues but did not know the full reason. Makes sense and
glad they are dealing with it.
I might use another service if they do not handle it quickly.
It seems as if all is now well, Snit! :-)
Here's confirmation!
https://jmp.sh/OXiW71OO
Still get the error on Safari... but I am sure it will catch up.
Did you get the warning of the link I just posted?
https://jmp.sh/OXiW71OO
I had EXPECTED you to say something like *Wow* Nice pretty cow!
I did... but now I do not.
I should have said something. Hopefully you will forgive me. After all, to err
is human, to forgive is bovine.
<Groan>!!! ;-)
Here's a Screenshot of what you would see in you opened the Jumpshare
link: https://ibb.co/cxtcb7B
Ah, a herd of innocent and sentient animals on death row. ;-(
Seeing such cordial scenes is good for one's mental health. 🙂
I really do appreciate your sharing of such information. In recent years we've taken a stance of 'not buying cheap' in the hope that we weren't supporting bad practices.
It seems that the problem has been solved. :-D
Here's proof of me conversing witha a very pretty cow! https://jmp.sh/OXiW71OO
On 20/01/2023 17:46, David Brooks wrote:
<snip>
Here's a Screenshot of what you would see in you opened the Jumpshare
link: https://ibb.co/cxtcb7B
Ah, a herd of innocent and sentient animals on death row. ;-(
Seeing such cordial scenes is good for one's mental health. 🙂
Only if you don't understand the implication of their existence David.
I really do appreciate your sharing of such information. In recent years >>> we've taken a stance of 'not buying cheap' in the hope that we weren't
supporting bad practices.
They all come from the same hatchery (organic, free range, barn if
chickens etc) and they all end up being transported to and having their
throats cut at the same slaughterhouses.
Most human beings will not attempt to eat other living creatures when
those creatures are still alive.
On 20/01/2023 17:46, David Brooks wrote:
<snip>
Here's a Screenshot of what you would see in you opened the
Jumpshare link: https://ibb.co/cxtcb7B
Ah, a herd of innocent and sentient animals on death row. ;-(
Seeing such cordial scenes is good for one's mental health. 🙂
Only if you don't understand the implication of their existence David.
An animal, artificially bred into an unnatural existence to be
slaughtered whilst the equivalent age of a human toddler, just because
you are accustomed to the taste of their flesh?
Or a troop of monkeys being driven into a smaller and smaller space
because of the destruction of their habitat ... to grow food for and
graze non-native cattle on ground not suited to growing anything other
than rainforest?
Now we have millions of crab and lobster and other sea life dying off
the coast of Lancashire. Chances are it's a man made cause but goes
along with the 3 trillion other sea creature we kill every year.
I really do appreciate your sharing of such information. In recent years
we've taken a stance of 'not buying cheap' in the hope that we weren't
supporting bad practices.
They all come from the same hatchery (organic, free range, barn if
chickens etc) and they all end up being transported to and having their throats cut at the same slaughterhouses.
It seems that the problem has been solved. :-D
Here's proof of me conversing witha a very pretty cow!
https://jmp.sh/OXiW71OO
Yeah, just like a big dog .... could you pull the knife across their
throat David, or could you simply eat something else, something that
isn't associated with bowel cancer, heart disease and diabetes and
massive amounts of environmental damage?
Am 20.01.23 um 21:14 schrieb T i m:
On 20/01/2023 17:46, David Brooks wrote:
<snip>
Here's a Screenshot of what you would see in you opened the Jumpshare >>>>> link: https://ibb.co/cxtcb7B
Ah, a herd of innocent and sentient animals on death row. ;-(
Seeing such cordial scenes is good for one's mental health. 🙂
Only if you don't understand the implication of their existence David.
Are you two queer?
Now we have millions of crab and lobster and other sea life dying off
the coast of Lancashire. Chances are it's a man made cause but goes
along with the 3 trillion other sea creature we kill every year.
Do you believe that there really WAS a Great Flood?
They all come from the same hatchery (organic, free range, barn if
chickens etc) and they all end up being transported to and having
their throats cut at the same slaughterhouses.
Most human beings will not attempt to eat other living creatures when
those creatures are still alive.
It seems that the problem has been solved. :-D
Here's proof of me conversing witha a very pretty cow!
https://jmp.sh/OXiW71OO
Yeah, just like a big dog .... could you pull the knife across their
throat David, or could you simply eat something else, something that
isn't associated with bowel cancer, heart disease and diabetes and
massive amounts of environmental damage?
No, I could NOT kill such a cow. Jersey Cows are kept for their milk.
I trust in the Lord.
Perhaps you should too.
On Jan 20, 2023 at 3:23:20 PM MST, "David Brooks" wrote
Most human beings will not attempt to eat other living creatures when
those creatures are still alive.
There are some cultures where they are OK with this. I say YUCK!
On 20/01/2023 22:23, David Brooks wrote:
<snip>
Now we have millions of crab and lobster and other sea life dying off
the coast of Lancashire. Chances are it's a man made cause but goes
along with the 3 trillion other sea creature we kill every year.
Do you believe that there really WAS a Great Flood?
By believe do you mean consider what is written in a book from back in
the day that one happened? No, not particularly? Is it possible there
was one, I'd have to ask those people who track such things?
<snip>
They all come from the same hatchery (organic, free range, barn if
chickens etc) and they all end up being transported to and having
their throats cut at the same slaughterhouses.
Most human beings will not attempt to eat other living creatures when
those creatures are still alive.
They do, but in general we in the West don't, partly because they can't actually process them without some form of pre-processing, like cooking.
It seems that the problem has been solved. :-D
Here's proof of me conversing witha a very pretty cow!
https://jmp.sh/OXiW71OO
Yeah, just like a big dog .... could you pull the knife across their
throat David, or could you simply eat something else, something that
isn't associated with bowel cancer, heart disease and diabetes and
massive amounts of environmental damage?
No, I could NOT kill such a cow. Jersey Cows are kept for their milk.
They are only kept for about 7 of their 20+ years to be exploited for
the milk that was ONLY made to feed their young before they wean. Like
we live off our mothers breast milk before we wean. Same process, two different species and we are pretty well the only species that consumes
milk once weaned and consume it from a different species that we
unnaturally exploit. Well, only the 40% of the world population that
isn't adult lactose intolerant that is.
So after the cows are raped (the equipment they are raped in used to be called 'The rape rack'), their calves are taken away from them and if
male either killed straight away, or are kept in a small pen a few
months so they can hardly move and raised as rose veal. If they are
female they can also be killed straight away or raised into the same
cycle of slavery and rape as their mothers. Then they have their throats
slit with all the others.
I trust in the Lord.
I'd prefer to trust in science and my own eyes thanks David.
But if I did I think I'm pretty sure I'd go along with the words they
thought sufficiently important they wrote on some stones, namely:
"You shall have no other gods before me".
Especially ourselves thinking we have the right to breed animals into an unnatural existence to then murder whist they are very young?
"You shall not murder".
That one speaks for itself doesn't it?
Genesis 2:15 (< the most real book)
"The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it
and keep it."
= An allotment. Grow plants (esp apples) to eat. ;-)
And if she did create the world and gave us dominion over it, do you
think she meant for us to pollute and exploit, cause 80 billion of her
land creatures and 3+ trillion of her sea creatures to suffer and die
every year and fuck it all up?
We are a plague on this planet but some of us have evolved to try to be better, as I'm sure any God would have wanted, especially in 2023 when
we have the choice of using compassion and love over cruelty, greed and
a hedonistic self gratification (a few moments of taste pleasure over
the death of an animal that is forever).
Perhaps you should too.
I think I do a pretty good job of living by the general ideals but
without needing the 'belief' and control thanks (because I can think for myself and know what it takes to align my actions to my morals). ;-)
Cheers, T i m
Whisky-dave said
I don't know any carnists.
T i m replied
Of course you do (but I understand why you might not realise you do).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/carnist
Interesting. Thank you.
I doubt that the Vegan folk have re-written the Bible so that items like
this no longer appear.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Prodigal_Son
It apears that it was OK to eat meat way back then, or so it seems to me.
Cruelty to animals is a no-no, I agree,
but God put these creature here
on earth with us to sustain and comfort us.
On 20/01/2023 22:25, Snit wrote:
On Jan 20, 2023 at 3:23:20 PM MST, "David Brooks" wrote
<snip>
I guess it can depend on how you see and accept the world.Most human beings will not attempt to eat other living creatures when
those creatures are still alive.
There are some cultures where they are OK with this. I say YUCK!
Fact, nature is harsh and animals eat each other alive (often) all the time.
So if said creature isn't sentient or has a nervous system that can
sense pain or if we killed it (by eating) quicker than it might
otherwise, that could be considered better (for the victim) than the alternatives.
However, one thing we do have that the animals don't is 'Moral agency'.
We have this because unlike the animals, we often have the choice to
*not* eat them alive or even at all. Once we have that option we are
obliged to choose the way that causes the east overall suffering, death
and other issues (like pollution / global warming) as anything else
would be anti-social and self destructive.
Not taking note of the obligation we have from Moral Agency is simply lowering ourselves to the same level as the animals who do routinely eat
each other alive, rape, kidnap and kill each others children and it's
mostly done in the name of survival, not something most of us have to
worry about since the advent of food shops. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
Do you think your God wants you to end all living things that she created?
On 21/01/2023 16:11, T i m wrote:
Do you think your God wants you to end all living things that she
created?
She did it once before
without MY help! :-D
For lunch today I had a jacket potato baked in the Aga!
On 21/01/2023 15:36, Snit wrote:
<snip>
Fact, nature is harsh and animals eat each other alive (often) all the time.
This is true.
So if said creature isn't sentient or has a nervous system that can
sense pain or if we killed it (by eating) quicker than it might
otherwise, that could be considered better (for the victim) than the
alternatives.
What type creatures do you mean?
Maybe some grubs and insects?
However, one thing we do have that the animals don't is 'Moral agency'.
We have this because unlike the animals, we often have the choice to
*not* eat them alive or even at all. Once we have that option we are
obliged to choose the way that causes the east overall suffering, death
and other issues (like pollution / global warming) as anything else
would be anti-social and self destructive.
I think that is reasonably fair.
We (vegans) think so too. ;-)
Not taking note of the obligation we have from Moral Agency is simply
lowering ourselves to the same level as the animals who do routinely eat >>> each other alive, rape, kidnap and kill each others children and it's
mostly done in the name of survival, not something most of us have to
worry about since the advent of food shops. ;-)
Well stetted.
Talking of food shops, this has just come up about Costa ...
https://viva.org.uk/animals/campaigns/the-true-costa-dairy/
We stopped off at a 'biker tea hut' a while back, wanting a cup of tea
but not if they only had milk meant for baby cows (as we aren't).
I asked if they had any alternative milks (quite expecting a 'no sorry
mate' ...).
"Almond, oat, soy ... " ;-)
Cheers, T i m
On 21/01/2023 16:25, David Brooks wrote:
On 21/01/2023 16:11, T i m wrote:
Do you think your God wants you to end all living things that she
created?
She did it once before
According to your 2000+ year old book ... ? Who got you into reading
that particular book, rather than any one of the many others that both
share some general info and have very conflicting 'rules' OOI?
And you think all the animals going on 2x2 would behave for 40 days and nights in a boat? ;-)
without MY help! :-D
And this time round, with your help. ;-(
For lunch today I had a jacket potato baked in the Aga!I do mine in the microwave and finish them with anything I've got going
in the oven as that's far more efficient.
The point is most religions are about kindness, love, compassion and
doing the right thing and if you had the choice of a sausage that
required a pig to be slowly gassed (stunned) and then have it's throat
cut and bled to death ... or you could have a sausage made of plants
that is much kinder, much more compassionate (and healthier, more sustainable, fewer resources, less polluting), why wouldn't anyone who
says they care about animals NOT choose that option?
https://www.thedodo.com/the-last-pig-459704635.html
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-50986683
https://www.kinderworld.org/videos/meat-industry/pounding-piglets-against-concrete-floor/
The problem with allowing any form of animal killing opens the door for complaciency and bad / cruel practices.
Cheers, T i m
Fact, nature is harsh and animals eat each other alive (often) all the time.
This is true.
So if said creature isn't sentient or has a nervous system that can
sense pain or if we killed it (by eating) quicker than it might
otherwise, that could be considered better (for the victim) than the
alternatives.
What type creatures do you mean?
However, one thing we do have that the animals don't is 'Moral agency'.
We have this because unlike the animals, we often have the choice to
*not* eat them alive or even at all. Once we have that option we are
obliged to choose the way that causes the east overall suffering, death
and other issues (like pollution / global warming) as anything else
would be anti-social and self destructive.
I think that is reasonably fair.
Not taking note of the obligation we have from Moral Agency is simply
lowering ourselves to the same level as the animals who do routinely eat
each other alive, rape, kidnap and kill each others children and it's
mostly done in the name of survival, not something most of us have to
worry about since the advent of food shops. ;-)
Well stetted.
I think I do a pretty good job of living by the general ideals but
without needing the 'belief' and control thanks (because I can think
for myself and know what it takes to align my actions to my morals). ;-)
You fight your corner well, T i m. :-)
Turning back to 'computing', may I have your thoughts on this question
and answer thread?
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/254566260
So if said creature isn't sentient or has a nervous system that can
sense pain or if we killed it (by eating) quicker than it might
otherwise, that could be considered better (for the victim) than the
alternatives.
What type creatures do you mean?
Maybe some grubs and insects?
OK. I have seen videos of people eating squid and the like. I would not do that. Grubs and insects I am not as concerned about.
However, one thing we do have that the animals don't is 'Moral agency'. >>>> We have this because unlike the animals, we often have the choice to
*not* eat them alive or even at all. Once we have that option we are
obliged to choose the way that causes the east overall suffering, death >>>> and other issues (like pollution / global warming) as anything else
would be anti-social and self destructive.
I think that is reasonably fair.
We (vegans) think so too. ;-)
I am slowly leaning more toward pescatarian. Still eat a fair amount of chicken though... and occasional pork. Almost no beef.
Not taking note of the obligation we have from Moral Agency is simply
lowering ourselves to the same level as the animals who do routinely eat >>>> each other alive, rape, kidnap and kill each others children and it's
mostly done in the name of survival, not something most of us have to
worry about since the advent of food shops. ;-)
Well stetted.
Well stated. Not sure how that typo happened!
Talking of food shops, this has just come up about Costa ...
https://viva.org.uk/animals/campaigns/the-true-costa-dairy/
Did not even watch the trailer.
I am eating right now.
I know the basic idea..
we treat our food animals HORRIBLY. Inexcusably.
It bothers me to eat chicken
because of that.
I have no problem with eating meat in general, even raising
animals to be eaten -- but treat them well.
We stopped off at a 'biker tea hut' a while back, wanting a cup of tea
but not if they only had milk meant for baby cows (as we aren't).
I do not drink milk... but do eat cheese.
Use mostly rice milk for cooking and
the like. Do not like how much sugar it has though.
I asked if they had any alternative milks (quite expecting a 'no sorry
mate' ...).
"Almond, oat, soy ... " ;-)
They are thankfully common these days.
https://www.thedodo.com/the-last-pig-459704635.html
I read, but did not enjoy, that story.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-50986683
That wasn't a nice read either. :-(
https://www.kinderworld.org/videos/meat-industry/pounding-piglets-against-concrete-floor/
I chose not to watch the video(s)
The problem with allowing any form of animal killing opens the door
for complaciency and bad / cruel practices.
Cheers, T i m
I'll find you a video of a happy pig!
On 21/01/2023 18:43, Snit wrote:
<snip>
So if said creature isn't sentient or has a nervous system that can
sense pain or if we killed it (by eating) quicker than it might
otherwise, that could be considered better (for the victim) than the >>>>> alternatives.
What type creatures do you mean?
Maybe some grubs and insects?
OK. I have seen videos of people eating squid and the like. I would not do >> that. Grubs and insects I am not as concerned about.
OK.
However, one thing we do have that the animals don't is 'Moral agency'. >>>>> We have this because unlike the animals, we often have the choice to >>>>> *not* eat them alive or even at all. Once we have that option we are >>>>> obliged to choose the way that causes the east overall suffering, death >>>>> and other issues (like pollution / global warming) as anything else
would be anti-social and self destructive.
I think that is reasonably fair.
We (vegans) think so too. ;-)
I am slowly leaning more toward pescatarian. Still eat a fair amount of
chicken though... and occasional pork. Almost no beef.
Well I guess 'every little helps' but it's really back to the 'are you
still beating your wife' sort of scenario.
When I ate chicken it was mostly the coatings I enjoyed, or the stuff I
was eating with it like roast veg.
Not taking note of the obligation we have from Moral Agency is simply >>>>> lowering ourselves to the same level as the animals who do routinely eat >>>>> each other alive, rape, kidnap and kill each others children and it's >>>>> mostly done in the name of survival, not something most of us have to >>>>> worry about since the advent of food shops. ;-)
Well stetted.
Well stated. Not sure how that typo happened!
It worked either way. ;-)
Talking of food shops, this has just come up about Costa ...
https://viva.org.uk/animals/campaigns/the-true-costa-dairy/
Did not even watch the trailer.
Nor did I. I couldn't.
I am eating right now.
Strange that eh. The chances are you are 'enjoying' the results of the
very thing you (and most people) don't want to watch, eating or
otherwise? In comparison I can watch footage of fruit and veg being
harvested whilst I'm eating! ;-)
I know the basic idea..
For our Mrs it's the image of a conveyor dumping day old male chicks
into a blender ... that's all she needs to be reminded why what we are
now doing is the right thing.
For me it's seeing any animal struggle when they know they are about to suffer something bad. Imagine being in that position yourself. You are
young and being dragged to your death whilst being innocent.
we treat our food animals HORRIBLY. Inexcusably.
We do indeed. ;-(
It bothers me to eat chicken
because of that.
Is the right answer.
I have no problem with eating meat in general, even raising
animals to be eaten -- but treat them well.
But what animal, chicken, sheep, cow or pig wants to die at the
equivalent age of a toddler, simply to satisfy our normalisation of it
being 'ok', when it never really was and is even less so today when we
are already destroying the viability of the planet for most living
creatures. ;-(
We stopped off at a 'biker tea hut' a while back, wanting a cup of tea
but not if they only had milk meant for baby cows (as we aren't).
I do not drink milk... but do eat cheese.
Cheese uses a lot of milk. If you see some Plant Based Cathedral City
and you like a Cheddar style cheese you might like to give it a go. Most Vegan cheese hasn't been 'good' but this really breaks that IMHO.
Oh, daughter got me some plant based Baby Bell cheeses which still taste
as questionably as they always did but you just can't stop eating. ;-)
Use mostly rice milk for cooking and
the like. Do not like how much sugar it has though.
We use 'unsweetened' Soy from Lidl as it works hot or cold and is pretty cheap.
I asked if they had any alternative milks (quite expecting a 'no sorry
mate' ...).
"Almond, oat, soy ... " ;-)
They are thankfully common these days.
Absolutely.
The shame is that I understand some coffee type places were charging
more for the alternative milks when now they are the same price if not cheaper?
Cheers, T i m
I am slowly leaning more toward pescatarian. Still eat a fair amount of
chicken though... and occasional pork. Almost no beef.
Well I guess 'every little helps' but it's really back to the 'are you
still beating your wife' sort of scenario.
I have dietary sensitivities which make many plant forms of protein not appropriate for me.
I can eat small amounts but not as my main source.
When I ate chicken it was mostly the coatings I enjoyed, or the stuff I
was eating with it like roast veg.
It is certainly better seasoned in some way. I make BBQ and teriaki chicken fairly often.
Strange that eh. The chances are you are 'enjoying' the results of the
very thing you (and most people) don't want to watch, eating or
otherwise? In comparison I can watch footage of fruit and veg being
harvested whilst I'm eating! ;-)
Have you ever heard a carrot scream when being pulled from the ground! :)
I was eating a vegetarian meal... if that means anything.
But I get your
point.
At the same time I do not like watching hunting but I have a lot less of an issue with that (if done what I consider appropriately).
For me it's seeing any animal struggle when they know they are about to
suffer something bad. Imagine being in that position yourself. You are
young and being dragged to your death whilst being innocent.
Absolutely. It is senseless... all about saving a buck. From corporations raking in billions.
But what animal, chicken, sheep, cow or pig wants to die at the
equivalent age of a toddler, simply to satisfy our normalisation of it
being 'ok', when it never really was and is even less so today when we
are already destroying the viability of the planet for most living
creatures. ;-(
I get where you are coming from but it is a part of how it is that animals tend to eat other animals.
I just want it to be as painless as reasonably
possible.
If there was a way to move completely away from it I would be open
to that.
I do not see it happening.
Cheese uses a lot of milk. If you see some Plant Based Cathedral City
and you like a Cheddar style cheese you might like to give it a go. Most
Vegan cheese hasn't been 'good' but this really breaks that IMHO.
I will look for it... but I have never found vegan cheese to taste or melt like the real thing.
I do use nutritional yeast in some recipes that call for
cheese... or at least reduce the cheese and add some yeast.
But I admit I love
cheese.
We use 'unsweetened' Soy from Lidl as it works hot or cold and is pretty
cheap.
I can have some soy, but too much ends up not sitting well. Same with oats. And almonds. Frustrating!
The shame is that I understand some coffee type places were charging
more for the alternative milks when now they are the same price if not
cheaper?
The alternatives are more expensive at the store.
So are things like heirloom
tomatoes, which I prefer but do not always get.
On 21/01/2023 19:46, Snit wrote:
<snip>
I am slowly leaning more toward pescatarian. Still eat a fair amount of >>>> chicken though... and occasional pork. Almost no beef.
Well I guess 'every little helps' but it's really back to the 'are you
still beating your wife' sort of scenario.
I have dietary sensitivities which make many plant forms of protein not
appropriate for me.
Daughter has ulcerative colitis and has found a plant based diet is
actually better for her.
I can eat small amounts but not as my main source.
Fruit / veg (nut / legumes etc) in general you mean? I mean they are
'plants' and plants contain protein?
When I ate chicken it was mostly the coatings I enjoyed, or the stuff I
was eating with it like roast veg.
It is certainly better seasoned in some way. I make BBQ and teriaki chicken >> fairly often.
Ok. I used to like a chicken kebab but now we buy the pitta and salad
from them and add our own kebab style meat ourselves.
<snip>
Strange that eh. The chances are you are 'enjoying' the results of the
very thing you (and most people) don't want to watch, eating or
otherwise? In comparison I can watch footage of fruit and veg being
harvested whilst I'm eating! ;-)
Have you ever heard a carrot scream when being pulled from the ground! :)
It would have been a pretty cruel act of a creator or nature to have
given a carrot pain receptors but not the means of getting away from the source of the pain (and part of it's purpose of course).
That said, we know plants can communicate and they can 'react' to
various stimuli but they lack a central nervous system or sentience so
are very different to most creatures.
I was eating a vegetarian meal... if that means anything.
To me, not really as there is probably as much or more cruelty in the
egg and dairy industries than in the meat.
50% of our beef comes from the dairy industry, just that they have also
had to endure being artificially inseminated, then having their calves
taken away, the mastitis and lugging around 10x the volume of milk they
would ever had in nature (to the point where they can sustain damage to
their hips / lags as they splay under the weight of the milk).
But I get your
point.
It's strange, it's been shown that when people give up meat via vegetarianism, they often make up for that with dairy and if that
industry is worse than meat etc ... ;-(
That's why we (vegans) often appreciate the gesture of anyone going vegi
for the animals, it's sort of a double edged sword.
At the same time I do not like watching hunting but I have a lot less of an >> issue with that (if done what I consider appropriately).
Understood. If there is a need (aka, survival) then a clean kill (head
shot) in the animals natural habitat could be considered to be at least
free of all the indoor concrete, unnatural foods, injected antibiotics / hormones and inability to fight or flight (not that an animal has much
chance of flight against a 38 cal rifle round) etc.
I don't count as an advantage the fact that a prey animal may die
quicker than compared when caught by a predator because the 38 round has removed their options of fight or flight.
We killed all the wolves in the Yellowstone Park and the balance of
nature went to pot. We re-introduced them again and nature went back to normal ... and we patted ourselves on the back for fixing it. ;-(
<snip>
For me it's seeing any animal struggle when they know they are about to
suffer something bad. Imagine being in that position yourself. You are
young and being dragged to your death whilst being innocent.
Absolutely. It is senseless... all about saving a buck. From corporations
raking in billions.
But ironically it's us, the consumer that is making it happen? ;-(
<snip>
But what animal, chicken, sheep, cow or pig wants to die at the
equivalent age of a toddler, simply to satisfy our normalisation of it
being 'ok', when it never really was and is even less so today when we
are already destroying the viability of the planet for most living
creatures. ;-(
I get where you are coming from but it is a part of how it is that animals >> tend to eat other animals.
Yes, because they don't have the choice, we do (or most of us do).
I just want it to be as painless as reasonably
possible.
I want what they would want is that it doesn't happen at all. ;-)
If there was a way to move completely away from it I would be open
to that.
I wonder if you would be ok with lab grown 'meat'?
I do not see it happening.
It's already happening Snit! ;-)
Most of the meat producers are investing heavily is the plant
alternatives, as are the milk alternatives because it *is* the only sustainable solution.
There isn't enough land or wild animals for the world population to
'hunt' and there isn't enough arable land to feed all of us and 80
Billion animals either. Over 75% of the soy grown in the Amazon is fed
to livestock (6% to us directly) for example and much of the grain grown
(in places like Ukraine) is fed to the likes of chickens. That's partly
why egg prices have gone up as egg producers can't justify the increased
feed costs of the birds from the hatchery or to feed them for the 18
months the live producing eggs (no other bird in nature lays an egg a
day that reduces their calcium and then causes them to break bones or
live with broken breast bones). ;-(
<snip>
Cheese uses a lot of milk. If you see some Plant Based Cathedral City
and you like a Cheddar style cheese you might like to give it a go. Most >>> Vegan cheese hasn't been 'good' but this really breaks that IMHO.
I will look for it... but I have never found vegan cheese to taste or melt >> like the real thing.
Because they say cheese is one of the more difficult things to
duplicate, it's best to just not eat any for 6 months and then when you
go back to it, you have forgotten the taste. And let's face it, if you
had never had cheese (meat / eggs / cows milk) in the first place you wouldn't be comparing it with anything anyway?
I do use nutritional yeast in some recipes that call for
cheese... or at least reduce the cheese and add some yeast.
Good ole Nooch. ;-)
But I admit I love cheese.
As do I mate and I'd have to say I no longer have to go without. Apart
from the Cathedral City the Applewood smoked stuff is ok, as is the PB Boursin. Others make soft / garlic cheese that makes a good dip.
<snip>
We use 'unsweetened' Soy from Lidl as it works hot or cold and is pretty >>> cheap.
I can have some soy, but too much ends up not sitting well. Same with oats. >> And almonds. Frustrating!
Daughter loved (cows) milk but after consuming any she used to get bad stomach gripes, often needing to sit / lay down for a while. It was only
when she went vegan (after being a veggi for a few years ... till she realised it wasn't really a thing) and started drinking 'other' milks
did she realise she didn't suffer the gripes and that led to her
realising that such wasn't 'normal' for everyone!
Given over 60% of the world population are adult lactose intolerant (we aren't as babies as human breast milk contains lactose (or lactaise or summat) but we lose that tolerance to it when we wean as we no longer
need milk).
I think they are also working on a 'lab milk', milk produced using a
bacteria rather than plants so they are putting a lot of effort in alternatives as they know the writing is on the wall (and might be
better for your digestive system). ;-)
<snip>
The shame is that I understand some coffee type places were charging
more for the alternative milks when now they are the same price if not
cheaper?
The alternatives are more expensive at the store.
Oh, thanks.
So are things like heirloom
tomatoes, which I prefer but do not always get.
I'll have to look out for them if they are particularly nice?
Cheers, T i m
On 21/01/2023 19:46, Snit wrote:
<snip>
I am slowly leaning more toward pescatarian. Still eat a fair amount of >>>> chicken though... and occasional pork. Almost no beef.
Well I guess 'every little helps' but it's really back to the 'are you
still beating your wife' sort of scenario.
I have dietary sensitivities which make many plant forms of protein not
appropriate for me.
Daughter has ulcerative colitis and has found a plant based diet is
actually better for her.
I can eat small amounts but not as my main source.
Fruit / veg (nut / legumes etc) in general you mean? I mean they are
'plants' and plants contain protein?
When I ate chicken it was mostly the coatings I enjoyed, or the stuff I
was eating with it like roast veg.
It is certainly better seasoned in some way. I make BBQ and teriaki
chicken
fairly often.
Ok. I used to like a chicken kebab but now we buy the pitta and salad
from them and add our own kebab style meat ourselves.
<snip>
Strange that eh. The chances are you are 'enjoying' the results of the
very thing you (and most people) don't want to watch, eating or
otherwise? In comparison I can watch footage of fruit and veg being
harvested whilst I'm eating! ;-)
Have you ever heard a carrot scream when being pulled from the ground! :)
It would have been a pretty cruel act of a creator or nature to have
given a carrot pain receptors but not the means of getting away from the source of the pain (and part of it's purpose of course).
That said, we know plants can communicate and they can 'react' to
various stimuli but they lack a central nervous system or sentience so
are very different to most creatures.
I was eating a vegetarian meal... if that means anything.
To me, not really as there is probably as much or more cruelty in the
egg and dairy industries than in the meat.
50% of our beef comes from the dairy industry, just that they have also
had to endure being artificially inseminated, then having their calves
taken away, the mastitis and lugging around 10x the volume of milk they
would ever had in nature (to the point where they can sustain damage to
their hips / lags as they splay under the weight of the milk).
But I get your
point.
It's strange, it's been shown that when people give up meat via vegetarianism, they often make up for that with dairy and if that
industry is worse than meat etc ... ;-(
That's why we (vegans) often appreciate the gesture of anyone going vegi
for the animals, it's sort of a double edged sword.
At the same time I do not like watching hunting but I have a lot less
of an
issue with that (if done what I consider appropriately).
Understood. If there is a need (aka, survival) then a clean kill (head
shot) in the animals natural habitat could be considered to be at least
free of all the indoor concrete, unnatural foods, injected antibiotics / hormones and inability to fight or flight (not that an animal has much
chance of flight against a 38 cal rifle round) etc.
I don't count as an advantage the fact that a prey animal may die
quicker than compared when caught by a predator because the 38 round has removed their options of fight or flight.
We killed all the wolves in the Yellowstone Park and the balance of
nature went to pot. We re-introduced them again and nature went back to normal ... and we patted ourselves on the back for fixing it. ;-(
<snip>
For me it's seeing any animal struggle when they know they are about to
suffer something bad. Imagine being in that position yourself. You are
young and being dragged to your death whilst being innocent.
Absolutely. It is senseless... all about saving a buck. From corporations
raking in billions.
But ironically it's us, the consumer that is making it happen? ;-(
<snip>
But what animal, chicken, sheep, cow or pig wants to die at the
equivalent age of a toddler, simply to satisfy our normalisation of it
being 'ok', when it never really was and is even less so today when we
are already destroying the viability of the planet for most living
creatures. ;-(
I get where you are coming from but it is a part of how it is that
animals
tend to eat other animals.
Yes, because they don't have the choice, we do (or most of us do).
I just want it to be as painless as reasonably
possible.
I want what they would want is that it doesn't happen at all. ;-)
If there was a way to move completely away from it I would be open
to that.
I wonder if you would be ok with lab grown 'meat'?
I do not see it happening.
It's already happening Snit! ;-)
Most of the meat producers are investing heavily is the plant
alternatives, as are the milk alternatives because it *is* the only sustainable solution.
There isn't enough land or wild animals for the world population to
'hunt' and there isn't enough arable land to feed all of us and 80
Billion animals either. Over 75% of the soy grown in the Amazon is fed
to livestock (6% to us directly) for example and much of the grain grown
(in places like Ukraine) is fed to the likes of chickens. That's partly
why egg prices have gone up as egg producers can't justify the increased
feed costs of the birds from the hatchery or to feed them for the 18
months the live producing eggs (no other bird in nature lays an egg a
day that reduces their calcium and then causes them to break bones or
live with broken breast bones). ;-(
<snip>
Cheese uses a lot of milk. If you see some Plant Based Cathedral City
and you like a Cheddar style cheese you might like to give it a go. Most >>> Vegan cheese hasn't been 'good' but this really breaks that IMHO.
I will look for it... but I have never found vegan cheese to taste or
melt
like the real thing.
Because they say cheese is one of the more difficult things to
duplicate, it's best to just not eat any for 6 months and then when you
go back to it, you have forgotten the taste. And let's face it, if you
had never had cheese (meat / eggs / cows milk) in the first place you wouldn't be comparing it with anything anyway?
I do use nutritional yeast in some recipes that call for
cheese... or at least reduce the cheese and add some yeast.
Good ole Nooch. ;-)
But I admit I love
cheese.
As do I mate and I'd have to say I no longer have to go without. Apart
from the Cathedral City the Applewood smoked stuff is ok, as is the PB Boursin. Others make soft / garlic cheese that makes a good dip.
<snip>
We use 'unsweetened' Soy from Lidl as it works hot or cold and is pretty >>> cheap.
I can have some soy, but too much ends up not sitting well. Same with
oats.
And almonds. Frustrating!
Daughter loved (cows) milk but after consuming any she used to get bad stomach gripes, often needing to sit / lay down for a while. It was only
when she went vegan (after being a veggi for a few years ... till she realised it wasn't really a thing) and started drinking 'other' milks
did she realise she didn't suffer the gripes and that led to her
realising that such wasn't 'normal' for everyone!
Given over 60% of the world population are adult lactose intolerant (we aren't as babies as human breast milk contains lactose (or lactaise or summat) but we lose that tolerance to it when we wean as we no longer
need milk).
I think they are also working on a 'lab milk', milk produced using a
bacteria rather than plants so they are putting a lot of effort in alternatives as they know the writing is on the wall (and might be
better for your digestive system). ;-)
<snip>
The shame is that I understand some coffee type places were charging
more for the alternative milks when now they are the same price if not
cheaper?
The alternatives are more expensive at the store.
Oh, thanks.
So are things like heirloom
tomatoes, which I prefer but do not always get.
I'll have to look out for them if they are particularly nice?
Cheers, T i m
Turning back to 'computing', may I have your thoughts on this questionYou can indeed.
and answer thread?
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/254566260
We stopped off at a 'biker tea hut' a while back, wanting a cup of tea
but not if they only had milk meant for baby cows (as we aren't).
I asked if they had any alternative milks (quite expecting a 'no sorry
mate' ...).
"Almond, oat, soy ... " ;-)
On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 18:29:46 +0000, T i m <[email protected]>
wrote:
We stopped off at a 'biker tea hut' a while back, wanting a cup of tea
but not if they only had milk meant for baby cows (as we aren't).
I asked if they had any alternative milks (quite expecting a 'no sorry
mate' ...).
"Almond, oat, soy ... " ;-)
I was surprised to learn where they get almond milk.
https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/angp1y0_460s.jpg
On 21/01/2023 18:53, T i m wrote:
[....]
Turning back to 'computing', may I have your thoughts on thisYou can indeed.
question and answer thread?
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/254566260
When?
Daughter has ulcerative colitis and has found a plant based diet is
actually better for her.
What does she use for protein?
On 22/01/2023 11:48, T i m wrote:
On 22/01/2023 00:29, David Brooks wrote:
On 21/01/2023 18:53, T i m wrote:Sorry, I did up there? ;-)
[....]
Turning back to 'computing', may I have your thoughts on thisYou can indeed.
question and answer thread?
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/254566260
When?
Oh! <shock> Did you make a post in the thread?
On 22/01/2023 00:29, David Brooks wrote:
On 21/01/2023 18:53, T i m wrote:Sorry, I did up there? ;-)
[....]
Turning back to 'computing', may I have your thoughts on thisYou can indeed.
question and answer thread?
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/254566260
When?
On 22/01/2023 12:47, David Brooks wrote:
On 22/01/2023 11:48, T i m wrote:Yes, 'no comment'. ;-)
On 22/01/2023 00:29, David Brooks wrote:
On 21/01/2023 18:53, T i m wrote:Sorry, I did up there? ;-)
[....]
Turning back to 'computing', may I have your thoughts on thisYou can indeed.
question and answer thread?
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/254566260
When?
Oh! <shock> Did you make a post in the thread?
On 21/01/2023 22:04, Snit wrote:
<snip>
Daughter has ulcerative colitis and has found a plant based diet is
actually better for her.
What does she use for protein?
<snip>
Nothing special, just the std range of plant based foods (no supplements
or shakes etc)?
The funny thing is the whole protein thing often comes up at the vegan activism events daughter does and when they ask 'So where do you get
your protein from then?' she asks them how much they need each day and
as yet she's not had an answer. ;-)
I think it's .75g/k of bodyweight so for an average man that's about 55mg.
On 21/01/2023 22:04, Snit wrote:
<snip>
Daughter has ulcerative colitis and has found a plant based diet is
actually better for her.
What does she use for protein?
<snip>
Nothing special, just the std range of plant based foods (no supplements
or shakes etc)?
The funny thing is the whole protein thing often comes up at the vegan activism events daughter does and when they ask 'So where do you get
your protein from then?' she asks them how much they need each day and
as yet she's not had an answer. ;-)
I think it's .75g/k of bodyweight so for an average man that's about 55mg.
Sorry mate, I did a full reply previously but TB ate it and I don't have
the time or inclination to type it all out again (as you might imagine, having to explain this stuff to people (not you) gets tiring ...), but
thanks very much for your reply. ;-)
If there were any specific questions please ask again and I'll try to reply.
Cheers, T i m
On 22/01/2023 12:13, T i m wrote:
On 21/01/2023 22:04, Snit wrote:
<snip>
Daughter has ulcerative colitis and has found a plant based diet is
actually better for her.
What does she use for protein?
<snip>
Nothing special, just the std range of plant based foods (no
supplements or shakes etc)?
The funny thing is the whole protein thing often comes up at the vegan
activism events daughter does and when they ask 'So where do you get
your protein from then?' she asks them how much they need each day and
as yet she's not had an answer. ;-)
I think it's .75g/k of bodyweight so for an average man that's about
55mg.
Unless you're extremely light,
that should be 55g. (Or 45g for females.)
The funny thing is the whole protein thing often comes up at the vegan
activism events daughter does and when they ask 'So where do you get
your protein from then?' she asks them how much they need each day and
as yet she's not had an answer. ;-)
Not as much as many think... Dr. Weil goes into this in his books.
I think it's .75g/k of bodyweight so for an average man that's about 55mg.
I do not remember the specifics... but know it is not a half as much as most people get.
Sorry mate, I did a full reply previously but TB ate it and I don't have
the time or inclination to type it all out again (as you might imagine,
having to explain this stuff to people (not you) gets tiring ...), but
thanks very much for your reply. ;-)
No problem.
If there were any specific questions please ask again and I'll try to reply.
Mostly looking to see if there are things I had not thought of...
On 22/01/2023 12:59, T i m wrote:
On 22/01/2023 12:47, David Brooks wrote:
On 22/01/2023 11:48, T i m wrote:Yes, 'no comment'. ;-)
On 22/01/2023 00:29, David Brooks wrote:
On 21/01/2023 18:53, T i m wrote:Sorry, I did up there? ;-)
[....]
Turning back to 'computing', may I have your thoughts on thisYou can indeed.
question and answer thread?
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/254566260
When?
Oh! <shock> Did you make a post in the thread?
Methinks you are pulling my leg, T i m! 😉
If not -----> please send me a screenshot of what you said.
Turning back to 'computing', may I have your thoughts on thisquestion and answer thread?
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/254566260
On 21/01/2023 18:34, David Brooks wrote:
<snip>
https://www.thedodo.com/the-last-pig-459704635.html
I read, but did not enjoy, that story.
I'm not sure it was mean to be 'fun reading' David, it just highlights
the sort of things that are going on all the time by the thousand every single day and they didn't deserve such treatment.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-50986683
That wasn't a nice read either. :-(
As above ... but it's what we are *paying* to make happen. We stop
paying them, they stop doing it and the wins (if you care about anything
at all) are immeasurable.
https://www.kinderworld.org/videos/meat-industry/pounding-piglets-against-concrete-floor/
I chose not to watch the video(s)
Me neither, I have seen enough of them during my research into veganism
to know that I no longer want to fund such things.
The real problem is the guilt I carry for allowing myself to be deceived
into 'believing' that it was all ok, going back to my parents when I was
a child and asked about it then.
The problem with allowing any form of animal killing opens the door
for complaciency and bad / cruel practices.
Cheers, T i m
I'll find you a video of a happy pig!
That will be a picture of a wild pig then as those are the only ones who
are truly happy.
But rather than trying to find some platitude, what about using your
eyes and opening you mind to the real truths, things that are happening
now, not 2000 years ago (when there were 170 million people, not 8
Billion) and the chances are there were more animals that people, unlike
now when there are 80 Billion livestock that wouldn't have been here
then either.
On 22/01/2023 15:54, Snit wrote:
Sorry, picking up on your point about the cost of plant based diets ...
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/jan/21/restaurants-dropping-meat-dishes-as-costs-rise-and-veganuary-grows-more-popular
Cheers, T i m
On Jan 22, 2023 at 9:30:03 AM MST, "T i m" wrote <[email protected]>:
We are fairly new to Bok Choy and only recently had our first avocado! ;-)
I have a fair number of avocados. Sometimes Bok Choy.
On 22/01/2023 15:54, Snit wrote:
<snip>
The funny thing is the whole protein thing often comes up at the vegan
activism events daughter does and when they ask 'So where do you get
your protein from then?' she asks them how much they need each day and
as yet she's not had an answer. ;-)
Not as much as many think... Dr. Weil goes into this in his books.
I think it's .75g/k of bodyweight so for an average man that's about 55mg.
(55g as Chris points out).
I do not remember the specifics... but know it is not a half as much as most >> people get.
And that's the thing. I think it's something like ~40% of the population
are B12 deficient (and only 5% of the population are vegan etc).
So unless you really do look after your diets (and from that stat and
the UK's obesity epidemic it's obvious that loads don't), many people
are likely to be deficient in something. So whilst I try to maintain a reasonably healthy and balanced (plant based) diet for the Mrs and I,
because we are old and I know sometimes we snack out or have junk food,
we have been taking a multivitamin tablet daily for some years now (the current one being a vegan tablet for vegans etc) and some plant based
Omega3 oil?
My last blood test came back ok fwiw and hers just had slightly high cholesterol and triglycerides but she was OD'ing on boiled sweets at the time? ;-(
Sorry mate, I did a full reply previously but TB ate it and I don't have >>> the time or inclination to type it all out again (as you might imagine,
having to explain this stuff to people (not you) gets tiring ...), but
thanks very much for your reply. ;-)
No problem.
Sooo frustrating when you put some effort into something and it just
goes 'poof'. ;-(
If there were any specific questions please ask again and I'll try to reply.
Mostly looking to see if there are things I had not thought of...
I had answered loads of points but there was nothing there that you may
well already know and even if not, I think you get the whole animal
abuse direction.
I did previously ask where you got those tomatoes from, can they be
found easily as we are always keen to give some new plants a try? ;-)
We are fairly new to Bok Choy and only recently had our first avocado! ;-)
Might try a nut cutlet next, given they are supposed to be a vegan
staple. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
I'm not sure it was mean to be 'fun reading' David, it just highlights
the sort of things that are going on all the time by the thousand
every single day and they didn't deserve such treatment.
You and I can never change that.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-50986683
That wasn't a nice read either. :-(
As above ... but it's what we are *paying* to make happen. We stop
paying them, they stop doing it and the wins (if you care about
anything at all) are immeasurable.
You can't quote any wins at all. :-(
The real problem is the guilt I carry for allowing myself to be
deceived into 'believing' that it was all ok, going back to my parents
when I was a child and asked about it then.
Probably best that you see a psychologist, T i m.
That will be a picture of a wild pig then as those are the only ones
who are truly happy.
Here he/she is! I'm sorry it took so long to find the video. :-D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY7jw1OvAzc
Watching always makes me smile!
But rather than trying to find some platitude, what about using your
eyes and opening you mind to the real truths, things that are
happening now, not 2000 years ago (when there were 170 million people,
not 8 Billion) and the chances are there were more animals that
people, unlike now when there are 80 Billion livestock that wouldn't
have been here then either.
I'm quite sure there is a 'master plan'.
I cannot change that.
This may help you: https://blog.kcm.org/unlock-gods-master-plan-for-your-life/
On 22/01/2023 20:30, Snit wrote:
On Jan 22, 2023 at 9:30:03 AM MST, "T i m" wrote
<[email protected]>:
[....]
We are fairly new to Bok Choy and only recently had our first avocado! ;-) >>I have a fair number of avocados. Sometimes Bok Choy.
I find it hard to believe that T i m has only recently enjoyed his very
first Avocado. They have been part of the British diet for most of my
adult lifetime.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/87a56e5c-6d41-4495-9e22-523efb6b4cb0
Mind you, he also claimed I'd not find a happy pig! I did! ;-) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY7jw1OvAzc
I take some vitamins, but not a multi because of some stuff I have reacted to poorly.
I mostly eat fairly well.
My last blood test came back ok fwiw and hers just had slightly high
cholesterol and triglycerides but she was OD'ing on boiled sweets at the
time? ;-(
Mine generally comes back fine... though some expected oddities from POTS / dysautonomia. Nothing concerning.
I had answered loads of points but there was nothing there that you may
well already know and even if not, I think you get the whole animal
abuse direction.
Absolutely. Well, I am sure there are horrid things I do not know... but I know it is horrid.
I did previously ask where you got those tomatoes from, can they be
found easily as we are always keen to give some new plants a try? ;-)
I have tried growing them with little luck. Get them from a store called Sprouts.
We are fairly new to Bok Choy and only recently had our first avocado! ;-)
I have a fair number of avocados.
Sometimes Bok Choy.
On 22/01/2023 20:30, Snit wrote:
On Jan 22, 2023 at 9:30:03 AM MST, "T i m" wrote
<[email protected]>:
[....]
We are fairly new to Bok Choy and only recently had our first
avocado! ;-)
I have a fair number of avocados. Sometimes Bok Choy.
I find it hard to believe that T i m has only recently enjoyed his very
first Avocado.
They have been part of the British diet for most of my
adult lifetime.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/87a56e5c-6d41-4495-9e22-523efb6b4cb0
Mind you, he also claimed I'd not find a happy pig! I did! ;-)
On Jan 22, 2023 at 9:31:51 AM MST, "T i m" wrote <[email protected]>:
On 22/01/2023 15:54, Snit wrote:
Sorry, picking up on your point about the cost of plant based diets ...
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/jan/21/restaurants-dropping-meat-dishes-as-costs-rise-and-veganuary-grows-more-popular
Thanks.
On 22/01/2023 20:45, David Brooks wrote:
On 22/01/2023 20:30, Snit wrote:
On Jan 22, 2023 at 9:30:03 AM MST, "T i m" wrote
<[email protected]>:
[....]
We are fairly new to Bok Choy and only recently had our first
avocado! ;-)
I have a fair number of avocados. Sometimes Bok Choy.
I find it hard to believe that T i m has only recently enjoyed his very
first Avocado.
This is the problem with having 'beliefs' rather than going on trust and fact?
On 22/01/2023 20:30, Snit wrote:
<snip>
I take some vitamins, but not a multi because of some stuff I have reacted to
poorly.
OK.
I mostly eat fairly well.
That's the best way of course, that matched with some regular and
reasonably paced (to get your heart rate up) exercise.
My last blood test came back ok fwiw and hers just had slightly high
cholesterol and triglycerides but she was OD'ing on boiled sweets at the >>> time? ;-(
Mine generally comes back fine... though some expected oddities from POTS / >> dysautonomia. Nothing concerning.
Gdgd.
<snip>
And that's the point isn't it, most people don't need many examples to predict the rest is just as bad. That's why if often only takes aI had answered loads of points but there was nothing there that you may
well already know and even if not, I think you get the whole animal
abuse direction.
Absolutely. Well, I am sure there are horrid things I do not know... but I >> know it is horrid.
viewing of 'Earthlings' or 'Dominion' for people to change, their eyes
are opened to what goes on in those windowless buildings. ;-(
I did previously ask where you got those tomatoes from, can they be
found easily as we are always keen to give some new plants a try? ;-)
I have tried growing them with little luck. Get them from a store called
Sprouts.
Ah, not yer average supermarket offering?
I have a fair number of avocados.
We are fairly new to Bok Choy and only recently had our first avocado! ;-) >>
I've not had enough yet to have any idea about the ripeness timing or
even what constitutes ripe or not. How do you typically eat yours?
Sometimes Bok Choy.
I'll often drop some into a stir fry along with baby leaf spinach.
Cheers, T i m
On 22/01/2023 20:28, Snit wrote:
On Jan 22, 2023 at 9:31:51 AM MST, "T i m" wrote
<[email protected]>:
On 22/01/2023 15:54, Snit wrote:
Sorry, picking up on your point about the cost of plant based diets ...
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/jan/21/restaurants-dropping-meat-dishes-as-costs-rise-and-veganuary-grows-more-popular
Thanks.And potentially it's not going to get any better (hopefully) any time
soon as all these things can have quite a cycle time (breeding livestock etc).
Farmer can't afford to feed his cows so converts his barns into holiday
lets or hospitality venues and gets more money for re-wilding the less
easy to manage / cultivate land. He grows a greater range of crops that provide greater biodiversity and food security and the increased insect habitat helps the pollination of the crops etc.
Many countries (Inc New Zealand) are in the process of banning the live transport of animals meaning better animal welfare and potentially
higher (refrigerated) transport costs. This means even imported meat
will be more expensive.
IF you have 15 minutes I found this video on NZ by Ed Winters fairly interesting, the history, timing (PM standing down) and how big the
'bigger picture' (especially the hypocrisy) around animal ag can be.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYN_WwXMPhU
How 'natural' does it seem to you?
Cheers, T i m
But living in filth.
https://kids.nationalgeographic.com/animals/mammals/facts/pig
On 21/01/2023 18:43, Snit wrote:
<snip>
So if said creature isn't sentient or has a nervous system that can
sense pain or if we killed it (by eating) quicker than it might
otherwise, that could be considered better (for the victim) than the >>>>> alternatives.
What type creatures do you mean?
Maybe some grubs and insects?
OK. I have seen videos of people eating squid and the like. I would not do >> that. Grubs and insects I am not as concerned about.
OK.
However, one thing we do have that the animals don't is 'Moral agency'. >>>>> We have this because unlike the animals, we often have the choice to >>>>> *not* eat them alive or even at all. Once we have that option we are >>>>> obliged to choose the way that causes the east overall suffering, death >>>>> and other issues (like pollution / global warming) as anything else
would be anti-social and self destructive.
I think that is reasonably fair.
We (vegans) think so too. ;-)
I am slowly leaning more toward pescatarian. Still eat a fair amount of
chicken though... and occasional pork. Almost no beef.
Well I guess 'every little helps' but it's really back to the 'are you still beating your wife' sort of scenario.
When I ate chicken it was mostly the coatings I enjoyed, or the stuff I was eating with it like roast veg.
Not taking note of the obligation we have from Moral Agency is simply >>>>> lowering ourselves to the same level as the animals who do routinely eat >>>>> each other alive, rape, kidnap and kill each others children and it's >>>>> mostly done in the name of survival, not something most of us have to >>>>> worry about since the advent of food shops. ;-)
Well stetted.
Well stated. Not sure how that typo happened!
It worked either way. ;-)
Talking of food shops, this has just come up about Costa ...
https://viva.org.uk/animals/campaigns/the-true-costa-dairy/
Did not even watch the trailer.
Nor did I. I couldn't.
I am eating right now.
Strange that eh. The chances are you are 'enjoying' the results of the very thing you (and most people) don't want to watch, eating or otherwise? In comparison I can watch footage of fruit and veg being harvested whilst I'm eating! ;-)
I know the basic idea..
For our Mrs it's the image of a conveyor dumping day old male chicks into a blender ... that's all she needs to be reminded why what we are now doing is the right thing.
For me it's seeing any animal struggle when they know they are about to suffer something bad. Imagine being in that position yourself. You are young and being dragged to your death whilst being innocent.
we treat our food animals HORRIBLY. Inexcusably.
We do indeed. ;-(
It bothers me to eat chicken
because of that.
Is the right answer.
I have no problem with eating meat in general, even raising
animals to be eaten -- but treat them well.
But what animal, chicken, sheep, cow or pig wants to die at the equivalent age of a toddler, simply to satisfy our normalisation of it being 'ok', when it never really was and is even less so today when we are already destroying the viability of the planet for most living creatures. ;-(
We stopped off at a 'biker tea hut' a while back, wanting a cup of tea
but not if they only had milk meant for baby cows (as we aren't).
I do not drink milk... but do eat cheese.
Cheese uses a lot of milk. If you see some Plant Based Cathedral City and you like a Cheddar style cheese you might like to give it a go. Most Vegan cheese hasn't been 'good' but this really breaks that IMHO.
Oh, daughter got me some plant based Baby Bell cheeses which still taste as questionably as they always did but you just can't stop eating. ;-)
Use mostly rice milk for cooking and
the like. Do not like how much sugar it has though.
We use 'unsweetened' Soy from Lidl as it works hot or cold and is pretty cheap.
I asked if they had any alternative milks (quite expecting a 'no sorry
mate' ...).
"Almond, oat, soy ... " ;-)
They are thankfully common these days.
Absolutely.
The shame is that I understand some coffee type places were charging more for the alternative milks when now they are the same price if not cheaper?
Cheers, T i m
On 22/01/2023 20:58, Snit wrote:
<snip>
But living in filth.Yup ... and why there are so many precautions required around handling
https://kids.nationalgeographic.com/animals/mammals/facts/pig
and storing raw meat. Not that the meat itself is bad but the conditions
it's slaughtered and processed in.
On top of that you have all the issues around how the animals are
slaughtered and who can or can't eat what when most plant based food is kosher and halal and why many councils are now only offering plant based foods at their buffets etc.
It's even happening the the USA, where if you don't eat meat you aren't
a 'real man'. ;-)
https://vegnews.com/vegan-news/health/plant-based-meals-default-nyc-hospitals
I love the way ED dissects all of the BS arguments he's ever presented
with in a calm and precise manner: ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lQ5jfAhmdc
Cheers, T i m
On Jan 22, 2023 at 1:45:20 PM MST, "David Brooks" wrote <BfhzL.383813$[email protected]>:
On 22/01/2023 20:30, Snit wrote:
On Jan 22, 2023 at 9:30:03 AM MST, "T i m" wrote
<[email protected]>:
[....]
We are fairly new to Bok Choy and only recently had our first avocado! ;-) >>>I have a fair number of avocados. Sometimes Bok Choy.
I find it hard to believe that T i m has only recently enjoyed his very
first Avocado. They have been part of the British diet for most of my
adult lifetime.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/87a56e5c-6d41-4495-9e22-523efb6b4cb0 >>
Mind you, he also claimed I'd not find a happy pig! I did! ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY7jw1OvAzc
But living in filth.
https://kids.nationalgeographic.com/animals/mammals/facts/pig
On Jan 22, 2023 at 2:17:49 PM MST, "T i m" wrote <[email protected]>:
On 22/01/2023 20:45, David Brooks wrote:
On 22/01/2023 20:30, Snit wrote:
On Jan 22, 2023 at 9:30:03 AM MST, "T i m" wrote
<[email protected]>:
[....]
We are fairly new to Bok Choy and only recently had our first
avocado! ;-)
I have a fair number of avocados. Sometimes Bok Choy.
I find it hard to believe that T i m has only recently enjoyed his very
first Avocado.
This is the problem with having 'beliefs' rather than going on trust and
fact?
I believe you are correct.
On 22/01/2023 20:45, David Brooks wrote:
On 22/01/2023 20:30, Snit wrote:
On Jan 22, 2023 at 9:30:03 AM MST, "T i m" wrote
<[email protected]>:
[....]
We are fairly new to Bok Choy and only recently had our first
avocado! ;-)
I have a fair number of avocados. Sometimes Bok Choy.
I find it hard to believe that T i m has only recently enjoyed his
very first Avocado.
This is the problem with having 'beliefs' rather than going on trust and fact?
I can't remember my parents ever having avocado. I can't remember
previously buying avocado and I know I bought 4 a week or so ago and
have only eaten one so far?
Not sure why any of that would be hard to believe?
They have been part of the British diet for most of my adult lifetime.
I'm sure they are, and?
So are jellied eels and I've never had any of those either, nor rabbit, pigeon, pheasant or loads of other things that many others have eaten
over the years?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/87a56e5c-6d41-4495-9e22-523efb6b4cb0 >>
Mind you, he also claimed I'd not find a happy pig! I did! ;-)
I claimed no such thing or maybe you just believed I said that?
That's the great thing about beliefs, you don't have to take any
personal responsibility for your actions, you are just doing what the
voices have told you? ;-(
Snit <[email protected]> wrote:
On Jan 22, 2023 at 9:30:03 AM MST, "T i m" wrote
<[email protected]>:
I have a fair number of avocados. Sometimes Bok Choy.
We are fairly new to Bok Choy and only recently had our first avocado! ;-) >>
Anyone concerned about the environmental impact of the food they eat
*should not* be eating avocados. Especially not at this time of year.
On Jan 22, 2023 at 9:30:03 AM MST, "T i m" wrote <[email protected]>:
We are fairly new to Bok Choy and only recently had our first avocado! ;-)
I have a fair number of avocados. Sometimes Bok Choy.
Snit <[email protected]> wrote:
On Jan 22, 2023 at 9:30:03 AM MST, "T i m" wrote
<[email protected]>:
I have a fair number of avocados. Sometimes Bok Choy.
We are fairly new to Bok Choy and only recently had our first avocado! ;-) >>
Anyone concerned about the environmental impact of the food they eat
*should not* be eating avocados. Especially not at this time of year.
On Jan 22, 2023 at 4:38:02 PM MST, "Chris" wrote <tqkhcp$3a99n$[email protected]>:
Snit <[email protected]> wrote:
On Jan 22, 2023 at 9:30:03 AM MST, "T i m" wrote
<[email protected]>:
I have a fair number of avocados. Sometimes Bok Choy.
We are fairly new to Bok Choy and only recently had our first avocado! ;-) >>>
Anyone concerned about the environmental impact of the food they eat
*should not* be eating avocados. Especially not at this time of year.
Also there are social issues... at least with the ones grown in Mexico.
Snit <[email protected]> wrote:
On Jan 22, 2023 at 9:30:03 AM MST, "T i m" wrote
<[email protected]>:
I have a fair number of avocados. Sometimes Bok Choy.
We are fairly new to Bok Choy and only recently had our first avocado! ;-) >>
Anyone concerned about the environmental impact of the food they eat
*should not* be eating avocados. Especially not at this time of year.
I find it hard to believe that T i m has only recently enjoyed his
very first Avocado.
This is the problem with having 'beliefs' rather than going on trust
and fact?
I can't remember my parents ever having avocado. I can't remember
previously buying avocado and I know I bought 4 a week or so ago and
have only eaten one so far?
Not sure why any of that would be hard to believe?
'Normal' people living 'normal' lives in the UK WILL have eaten Avocado!
They have been part of the British diet for most of my adult lifetime.
I'm sure they are, and?
So are jellied eels and I've never had any of those either, nor
rabbit, pigeon, pheasant or loads of other things that many others
have eaten over the years?
Have you spent a lifetime in prison?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/87a56e5c-6d41-4495-9e22-523efb6b4cb0 >>>
Mind you, he also claimed I'd not find a happy pig! I did! ;-)
I claimed no such thing or maybe you just believed I said that?
That's the great thing about beliefs, you don't have to take any
personal responsibility for your actions, you are just doing what the
voices have told you? ;-(
You really do need to understand the REAL world, T i m.
I mostly eat fairly well.
That's the best way of course, that matched with some regular and
reasonably paced (to get your heart rate up) exercise.
Just came back from a brisk walk.
And that's the point isn't it, most people don't need many examples to
predict the rest is just as bad. That's why if often only takes a
viewing of 'Earthlings' or 'Dominion' for people to change, their eyes
are opened to what goes on in those windowless buildings. ;-(
Many seem heartless.
I did previously ask where you got those tomatoes from, can they be
found easily as we are always keen to give some new plants a try? ;-)
I have tried growing them with little luck. Get them from a store called >>> Sprouts.
Ah, not yer average supermarket offering?
Not around here... though Sprouts is not that uncommon.
That is heirloom tomatoes.
Other tomatoes are more common.
I have a fair number of avocados.
We are fairly new to Bok Choy and only recently had our first avocado! ;-) >>>
I've not had enough yet to have any idea about the ripeness timing or
even what constitutes ripe or not. How do you typically eat yours?
Ripeness: they turn almost black and are "squishy".
If they are really firm
they are not ready.
I use them in salads, will have them with shrimp tacos soon, make an avocado tortilla soup (sometimes vegan, some times with chicken and cheese). Actually almost always with cheese.
Sometimes Bok Choy.
I'll often drop some into a stir fry along with baby leaf spinach.
Yes. And other veggies.
Anyone concerned about the environmental impact of the food they eat
*should not* be eating avocados. Especially not at this time of year.
I think they grow all year round near where Snit lives.
Here in the UK, if they are already in the shops, the damage has already
been done.
Many countries (Inc New Zealand) are in the process of banning the live
transport of animals meaning better animal welfare and potentially
higher (refrigerated) transport costs. This means even imported meat
will be more expensive.
In the US the government subsidizes the meat industry and says we need more than we do.
IF you have 15 minutes I found this video on NZ by Ed Winters fairly
interesting, the history, timing (PM standing down) and how big the
'bigger picture' (especially the hypocrisy) around animal ag can be.
Bookmarked it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GE-sfEbJ7I <--Pink Floyd
Someone posted the lyrics in the comments.
On 20/01/2023 14:14, whisky-dave wrote:
<snip>
Crazy Dave doesn't like evangelists (often the std dismissive name
ignorant and confused people use for the people doing things they don't
understand)
<snip>
But it's those that preach to othersWhat, like telling them they shouldn't buy a vegan burger from McD's
or
use their car instead of the bus you mean?
the worst of which tell lies in order to further their cause.Are they worse than those supporting Animal Liberation events whilst
still eating animals?
One or two charity fund rasing events in the last 20 years.Animal Liberation charity events though?
Hardly a season ticket holder.Quite, still ...
Or is
that ok as long as no one sees you or knows that you are 'supporting',
you know, supporting it 'quietly' or just letting the others do the
actual work that makes a difference?
I was supporting the fund raising efforts.For Animal Liberation, to help them liberate animals, whilst you carry
on eating them?
It sounds very much like what most carnists.
I don't know any carnists.Of course you do (but I understand why you might not realise you do).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/carnist
I'm betting you don;t either.
How much would you like to bet then?
<snip>
Like only hitting your wife / dog / child once a month instead of once a >> week, a step in the right direction?
Yep that's how it starts one small step for man etc....'A man', but at least I understand you better now you have admitted that ramping down how often you hit your wife / dog / child is a least a step
in the right direction and that's how people normally deal with such things.
I'm not sure you would get any praise from the judge or Child Protection
for those efforts.
And of course the logical / adult /
kind thing to do is as soon as the Police / Social Workers have left is
to take it out on the victims a bit more!
you can blame that on the wokes .No, I heard you first time Dave .... ;-(
and those that say smacking a child is wrong .
"Eww, a vegan annoyed me so I'm going to go and eat some more meat ... "
They only annoy me when they lie to me.So, by your standards ... who is worse (given not hitting your wife so
often is ok by you) who is worse, a person who actively reduces the
suffering caused to animals or one who actually causes it?
The problem we all this quiet acceptance of all the violence going on
against animals is that it actually helps propagate it and we don't have >> time for that any more.
And yet you help propagate it by giving money to McDsSo, you only shop in vegan only places and only buy plant based foods?
You vet everyone you give money to to check they aren't going to spend
it on meat?
What if your bus driver takes his wages and spends it on a
lambs leg?
Cheers, T i m
On 22/01/2023 21:38, Snit wrote:
<snip>
I mostly eat fairly well.
That's the best way of course, that matched with some regular and
reasonably paced (to get your heart rate up) exercise.
Just came back from a brisk walk.
I only get a brisk walk now when out on my own or when walking with our daughter as the Mrs isn't up to it any more (her dementia).
She did manage a few miles with me and daughters dog the other day but
she was really stumbling towards the end. ;-(
<snip>
And that's the point isn't it, most people don't need many examples to
predict the rest is just as bad. That's why if often only takes a
viewing of 'Earthlings' or 'Dominion' for people to change, their eyes
are opened to what goes on in those windowless buildings. ;-(
Many seem heartless.
Yup. A mate admits he really doesn't care about animals over his own
teste pleasure but admits he's also a hypocrite as he couldn't kill an
animal himself. Maybe he's never made that connection that most do if
only with their pets?
I have tried growing them with little luck. Get them from a store called >>>> Sprouts.
I did previously ask where you got those tomatoes from, can they be
found easily as we are always keen to give some new plants a try? ;-) >>>>
Ah, not yer average supermarket offering?
Not around here... though Sprouts is not that uncommon.
I can't say I've ever heard of it (Nth London)?
That is heirloom tomatoes.
Sure.
Other tomatoes are more common.
Yup. ;-)
We normally have some, often fried with a breakfast or sliced with
cheese on toast in the winter or as-is with salads in the summer.
We are fairly new to Bok Choy and only recently had our first avocado! ;-)
I have a fair number of avocados.
I've not had enough yet to have any idea about the ripeness timing or
even what constitutes ripe or not. How do you typically eat yours?
Ripeness: they turn almost black and are "squishy".
Ok.
If they are really firm
they are not ready.
I must have bought the 4 about two weeks ago and put 3 in the fridge
(not sure where I was supposed to keep them).
We had one but it sounds
like it wasn't ripe and it was probably as firm as Cheddar cheese?
I
mean, it tasted 'ok' but not something I'd choose to eat unless there
were specific health benefits.
I use them in salads, will have them with shrimp tacos soon, make an avocado >> tortilla soup (sometimes vegan, some times with chicken and cheese). Actually
almost always with cheese.
Hmm, ok, that's given me some ideas. ;-)
Sometimes Bok Choy.
I'll often drop some into a stir fry along with baby leaf spinach.
Yes. And other veggies.
Because we aren't foodies, I often go for the Lidl frozen stir-fry veg
bags.
They are cheap, varied, freezing retains most of the goodness and
because we don't really plan meals ahead, reduces food waste.
I did a chilli-style one last night with some added meaty type bits and
it was fine.
If we are more hungry I might add more onion, mushroom, chickpeas /
lentils / red / black beans or any other veg we need to use up.
Cheers, T i m
whisky-dave <[email protected]> wrote:
On Wednesday, 18 January 2023 at 21:22:48 UTC, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
Am 18.01.23 um 19:36 schrieb Chris:
whisky-dave <[email protected]> wrote:This one is really tempting!
I'm still on my iPhone7 and 2014 iMac
Nothing new has come out yet to make me want to upgrade the studioi Macs are tempting
but not tempting enough for the £3.5k I'd have to spend .
Have a look at the new mini announced yesterday. There's quite a lot of >>> power for not a lot of money (for a Mac).
A lot of Bang for the Buck!
Haven't looked at them too closely but by the time I've added extras I;d want it's almostLike what? The price difference is £1,350. That's lots of extras.
to the price of the studio.
My main issues is as to whether the Apple monitor is really worth the money asked forIf you know you need it, then it's worth it. If you're not sure, then it's not.
as there are so many good monitors for around half the price.
Just get a good Dell monitor.
On 20/01/2023 20:14, T i m wrote:
On 20/01/2023 17:46, David Brooks wrote:
<snip>
Here's a Screenshot of what you would see in you opened the
Jumpshare link: https://ibb.co/cxtcb7B
Ah, a herd of innocent and sentient animals on death row. ;-(
Seeing such cordial scenes is good for one's mental health. 🙂
Only if you don't understand the implication of their existence David.
An animal, artificially bred into an unnatural existence to be
slaughtered whilst the equivalent age of a human toddler, just because
you are accustomed to the taste of their flesh?
Or a troop of monkeys being driven into a smaller and smaller space because of the destruction of their habitat ... to grow food for and
graze non-native cattle on ground not suited to growing anything other than rainforest?
Now we have millions of crab and lobster and other sea life dying offDo you believe that there really WAS a Great Flood?
the coast of Lancashire. Chances are it's a man made cause but goes
along with the 3 trillion other sea creature we kill every year.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_flood_narrative
I really do appreciate your sharing of such information. In recent years >> we've taken a stance of 'not buying cheap' in the hope that we weren't
supporting bad practices.
They all come from the same hatchery (organic, free range, barn if chickens etc) and they all end up being transported to and having their throats cut at the same slaughterhouses.Most human beings will not attempt to eat other living creatures when
those creatures are still alive.
It seems that the problem has been solved. :-D
Here's proof of me conversing witha a very pretty cow!
https://jmp.sh/OXiW71OO
Yeah, just like a big dog .... could you pull the knife across their throat David, or could you simply eat something else, something thatNo, I could NOT kill such a cow. Jersey Cows are kept for their milk.
isn't associated with bowel cancer, heart disease and diabetes and
massive amounts of environmental damage?
I trust in the Lord. Perhaps you should too.
--
Kind regards,
David
On 23/01/2023 00:47, Snit wrote:
On Jan 22, 2023 at 4:38:02 PM MST, "Chris" wrote
<tqkhcp$3a99n$[email protected]>:
Snit <[email protected]> wrote:
On Jan 22, 2023 at 9:30:03 AM MST, "T i m" wrote
<[email protected]>:
We are fairly new to Bok Choy and only recently had our first avocado! ;-)
I have a fair number of avocados. Sometimes Bok Choy.
Anyone concerned about the environmental impact of the food they eat
*should not* be eating avocados. Especially not at this time of year.
Also there are social issues... at least with the ones grown in Mexico.
Please expand on that, Snit.
Thanks.
This isn't David is it? ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo-OzbZxmho
On Jan 21, 2023 at 12:15:15 PM MST, "T i m" wrote <[email protected]>:
On 21/01/2023 18:43, Snit wrote:
Have you ever heard a carrot scream when being pulled from the ground! :)
I was eating a vegetarian meal... if that means anything. But I get your point.
At the same time I do not like watching hunting but I have a lot less of an issue with that (if done what I consider appropriately).
I know the basic idea..
For our Mrs it's the image of a conveyor dumping day old male chicksI have seen that. It is sickening.
into a blender ... that's all she needs to be reminded why what we are
now doing is the right thing.
For me it's seeing any animal struggle when they know they are about to suffer something bad. Imagine being in that position yourself. You are young and being dragged to your death whilst being innocent.Absolutely. It is senseless... all about saving a buck. From corporations raking in billions.
we treat our food animals HORRIBLY. Inexcusably.
We do indeed. ;-(
It bothers me to eat chicken
because of that.
Is the right answer.
I have no problem with eating meat in general, even raising
animals to be eaten -- but treat them well.
But what animal, chicken, sheep, cow or pig wants to die at theI get where you are coming from but it is a part of how it is that animals tend to eat other animals. I just want it to be as painless as reasonably possible. If there was a way to move completely away from it I would be open to that. I do not see it happening.
equivalent age of a toddler, simply to satisfy our normalisation of it being 'ok', when it never really was and is even less so today when we
are already destroying the viability of the planet for most living creatures. ;-(
We stopped off at a 'biker tea hut' a while back, wanting a cup of tea >>> but not if they only had milk meant for baby cows (as we aren't).
I do not drink milk... but do eat cheese.
Cheese uses a lot of milk. If you see some Plant Based Cathedral CityI will look for it... but I have never found vegan cheese to taste or melt like the real thing. I do use nutritional yeast in some recipes that call for cheese... or at least reduce the cheese and add some yeast. But I admit I love
and you like a Cheddar style cheese you might like to give it a go. Most Vegan cheese hasn't been 'good' but this really breaks that IMHO.
cheese.
Oh, daughter got me some plant based Baby Bell cheeses which still tasteLOL!
as questionably as they always did but you just can't stop eating. ;-)
Use mostly rice milk for cooking and
the like. Do not like how much sugar it has though.
We use 'unsweetened' Soy from Lidl as it works hot or cold and is pretty cheap.I can have some soy, but too much ends up not sitting well. Same with oats. And almonds. Frustrating!
On 21/01/2023 18:43, Snit wrote:
<snip>
So if said creature isn't sentient or has a nervous system that can
sense pain or if we killed it (by eating) quicker than it might
otherwise, that could be considered better (for the victim) than the >>>> alternatives.
What type creatures do you mean?
Maybe some grubs and insects?
OK. I have seen videos of people eating squid and the like. I would not do that. Grubs and insects I am not as concerned about.OK.
However, one thing we do have that the animals don't is 'Moral agency'. >>>> We have this because unlike the animals, we often have the choice to >>>> *not* eat them alive or even at all. Once we have that option we are >>>> obliged to choose the way that causes the east overall suffering, death >>>> and other issues (like pollution / global warming) as anything else
would be anti-social and self destructive.
I think that is reasonably fair.
We (vegans) think so too. ;-)
I am slowly leaning more toward pescatarian. Still eat a fair amount of chicken though... and occasional pork. Almost no beef.
Well I guess 'every little helps' but it's really back to the 'are you
still beating your wife' sort of scenario.
When I ate chicken it was mostly the coatings I enjoyed, or the stuff I
was eating with it like roast veg.
Not taking note of the obligation we have from Moral Agency is simply >>>> lowering ourselves to the same level as the animals who do routinely eat >>>> each other alive, rape, kidnap and kill each others children and it's >>>> mostly done in the name of survival, not something most of us have to >>>> worry about since the advent of food shops. ;-)
Well stetted.
Well stated. Not sure how that typo happened!It worked either way. ;-)
Talking of food shops, this has just come up about Costa ...
https://viva.org.uk/animals/campaigns/the-true-costa-dairy/
Did not even watch the trailer.Nor did I. I couldn't.
I am eating right now.Strange that eh. The chances are you are 'enjoying' the results of the
very thing you (and most people) don't want to watch, eating or
otherwise? In comparison I can watch footage of fruit and veg being
harvested whilst I'm eating! ;-)
I know the basic idea..For our Mrs it's the image of a conveyor dumping day old male chicks
into a blender ... that's all she needs to be reminded why what we are
now doing is the right thing.
For me it's seeing any animal struggle when they know they are about to suffer something bad. Imagine being in that position yourself. You are
young and being dragged to your death whilst being innocent.
we treat our food animals HORRIBLY. Inexcusably.We do indeed. ;-(
It bothers me to eat chickenIs the right answer.
because of that.
I have no problem with eating meat in general, even raisingBut what animal, chicken, sheep, cow or pig wants to die at the
animals to be eaten -- but treat them well.
equivalent age of a toddler, simply to satisfy our normalisation of it
being 'ok', when it never really was and is even less so today when we
are already destroying the viability of the planet for most living
creatures. ;-(
We stopped off at a 'biker tea hut' a while back, wanting a cup of tea
but not if they only had milk meant for baby cows (as we aren't).
I do not drink milk... but do eat cheese.Cheese uses a lot of milk. If you see some Plant Based Cathedral City
and you like a Cheddar style cheese you might like to give it a go. Most Vegan cheese hasn't been 'good' but this really breaks that IMHO.
Oh, daughter got me some plant based Baby Bell cheeses which still taste
as questionably as they always did but you just can't stop eating. ;-)
I believe most of the avocados consumed in the UK come from the Netherlands
On 23/01/2023 10:17, T i m wrote:
[....]
This isn't David is it? ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo-OzbZxmho
No, not me! I would have lost my patience within the first few minutes.
Maybe it folk like YOU who are mistaken. Did you know ..... ?
At the age of eighty-six, Polycarp was arrested by Roman guards for
refusing to deny Christ and worship the emperor. In his life, Polycarp
was known for combating heresies, writing letters to the churches, and
being discipled by the apostle John. In his death, he provided
Christians and unbelievers everywhere with an example of true faith in Christ. See the story of Polycarp come to life in the Polycarp film! RevelationMedia is proud to announce that you can now watch the Polycarp
film for FREE in this exclusive online event!
Polycarp appears before the Roman Proconsul.
Polycarp, the aged bishop of Smyrna, spent his life worshipping Christ, ministering to others, and preaching the Gospel. When his friends first
heard that the Proconsul wanted to arrest him, they ushered Polycarp
into hiding. But when the Roman guards found his hiding place, Polycarp opened the door to them and allowed himself to be arrested, saying
“God’s will be done.” He was escorted to the Proconsul and interrogated in front of a crowd but refused to deny His God.
“Eighty and six years have I served Him, and he never did me any injury; how then can I blaspheme my King and
my Savior?” —Polycarp
Polycarp died a martyr, being burned at the stake with twelve other Christians. He rejoiced that, in his death, he was able to “share the
cup of Christ.” Polycarp’s message of living for Christ no matter the consequences is a powerful and timely lesson for us today. Learn who
Polycarp was and the effect he had on those around him and introduce his
life to a whole new generation by watching Polycarp for FREE online.
Watch Polycarp’s powerful testimony of how love casts out fear now
online for FREE by clicking the link below.
https://get.revelationmedia.org/watchpolycarp-2
I only get a brisk walk now when out on my own or when walking with our
daughter as the Mrs isn't up to it any more (her dementia).
Sorry to hear about the Mrs.
I walk less than I "should" -- given my own POTS
/ dysautonomia --
but have a step goal I have made nearing two years in a row,
minus one when I had Covid.
The goal is fairly low, but most days I do 2x it
or more (my average is much higher than the goal).
She did manage a few miles with me and daughters dog the other day but
she was really stumbling towards the end. ;-(
Sorry to hear.
And has to be hard on you to see her struggle.
Yup. A mate admits he really doesn't care about animals over his own
teste pleasure but admits he's also a hypocrite as he couldn't kill an
animal himself. Maybe he's never made that connection that most do if
only with their pets?
We all have areas where we blind ourselves.
Not around here... though Sprouts is not that uncommon.
I can't say I've ever heard of it (Nth London)?
Just in America, and not all of it:
https://www.sprouts.com/stores/
It focuses on fresh produce at a good price... and health foods NOT at a good price. LOL!
We normally have some, often fried with a breakfast or sliced with
cheese on toast in the winter or as-is with salads in the summer.
Cheese! Say it ain't so! :)
I must have bought the 4 about two weeks ago and put 3 in the fridge
(not sure where I was supposed to keep them).
Unless really ripe, not the fridge. Same with tomatoes.
We had one but it sounds
like it wasn't ripe and it was probably as firm as Cheddar cheese?
Not ripe at all. MUCH better when soft. Should be spreadable or almost so.
I
mean, it tasted 'ok' but not something I'd choose to eat unless there
were specific health benefits.
Not being ripe... yeah... no good. Get a ripe one and they can be very tasty.
Of course different people like different things. I have a couple that are ripe -- perhaps getting just past too ripe. Maybe I will make a quick video to
show you what they look like.
One test: when you cut them in half the seed should be easy to get out. If not
it is not ripe enough. Of course you only can do that test AFTER you have cut it open... but you get a feel for it from the firmness and color.
The soup is not, as far as I know, a common use. I blend them up in the broth.
It adds a creaminess I really like.
Modified from this recipe:
https://tiphero.com/avocado-chicken-tortilla-soup
Of course you do not have to have the chicken. It does add flavor, but I have had it with baked, pressed tofu and it works well with that. Pressing, seasoning, and baking the tofu takes a lot more time though.
Today's plan is to try to re-make some shrimp tacos I made the other day.
* Pan fry the shrimp with taco seasoning (in my case home made, low FODMAP)
* Dice some avocados and heirloom tomatoes, toss in fresh squeezed lime juice * Heat up some corn tortillas
Make tacos. Easy and VERY yummy. Also not vegetarian (shrimp). They are wild caught.
From the last time I made them: https://jmp.sh/DPZzyiGa
I did have some cheese on them. It was not needed. Will not use it this time.
Because we aren't foodies, I often go for the Lidl frozen stir-fry veg
bags.
I often use frozen. They are as healthy but not as crisp. Will often mix in some fresh red peppers or other things for more crunch.
On 22/01/2023 20:30, Snit wrote:
And that's the point isn't it, most people don't need many examples to predict the rest is just as bad. That's why if often only takes a
viewing of 'Earthlings' or 'Dominion' for people to change, their eyes
are opened to what goes on in those windowless buildings. ;-(
I did previously ask where you got those tomatoes from, can they be
found easily as we are always keen to give some new plants a try? ;-)
I have tried growing them with little luck. Get them from a store called Sprouts.Ah, not yer average supermarket offering?
We are fairly new to Bok Choy and only recently had our first avocado! ;-)
I have a fair number of avocados.I've not had enough yet to have any idea about the ripeness timing or
even what constitutes ripe or not. How do you typically eat yours?
Sometimes Bok Choy.
I'll often drop some into a stir fry along with baby leaf spinach.
Cheers, T i m
Hope This Helps
On 23/01/2023 15:37, David Brooks wrote:
On 23/01/2023 10:17, T i m wrote:
[....]
This isn't David is it? ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo-OzbZxmho
No, not me! I would have lost my patience within the first few minutes.
Maybe it folk like YOU who are mistaken. Did you know ..... ?
At the age of eighty-six, Polycarp was arrested by Roman guards for
refusing to deny Christ and worship the emperor. In his life, Polycarp
was known for combating heresies, writing letters to the churches, and
being discipled by the apostle John. In his death, he provided
Christians and unbelievers everywhere with an example of true faith in
Christ. See the story of Polycarp come to life in the Polycarp film!
RevelationMedia is proud to announce that you can now watch the
Polycarp film for FREE in this exclusive online event!
Polycarp appears before the Roman Proconsul.
Polycarp, the aged bishop of Smyrna, spent his life worshipping
Christ, ministering to others, and preaching the Gospel. When his
friends first heard that the Proconsul wanted to arrest him, they
ushered Polycarp into hiding. But when the Roman guards found his
hiding place, Polycarp opened the door to them and allowed himself to
be arrested, saying “God’s will be done.” He was escorted to the
Proconsul and interrogated in front of a crowd but refused to deny His
God.
“Eighty and six years have I served Him, and he never did me any
injury; how then can I blaspheme my King and
my Savior?” —Polycarp
Polycarp died a martyr, being burned at the stake with twelve other
Christians. He rejoiced that, in his death, he was able to “share the
cup of Christ.” Polycarp’s message of living for Christ no matter the
consequences is a powerful and timely lesson for us today. Learn who
Polycarp was and the effect he had on those around him and introduce
his life to a whole new generation by watching Polycarp for FREE online.
Watch Polycarp’s powerful testimony of how love casts out fear now
online for FREE by clicking the link below.
https://get.revelationmedia.org/watchpolycarp-2
Erm, no (thanks). I still haven't watched The Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit! ;-)
See, if you don't 'believe' in all that (not LOTR, the other books), it really is completely and utterly irrelevant. Like my interest in
football or whatever.
I don't get involved / concerned / upset / dismayed when any particular
team loses because it's just 'a game' and one I couldn't give any less
fcuks about.
HTH?
On 23/01/2023 13:51, Snit wrote:
<snip>
I only get a brisk walk now when out on my own or when walking with our
daughter as the Mrs isn't up to it any more (her dementia).
Sorry to hear about the Mrs.
Thanks. I have been able to do things like label stuff (because there is
no point telling or explaining anything as she will forget straight
away) but it's still early days and we aren't fully in the system yet.
I walk less than I "should" -- given my own POTS
/ dysautonomia --
And sorry to hear of that / likewise.
but have a step goal I have made nearing two years in a row,
minus one when I had Covid.
That's good.
The goal is fairly low, but most days I do 2x it
or more (my average is much higher than the goal).
And even if it wasn't it's still nice to keep going for the goal.
She did manage a few miles with me and daughters dog the other day but
she was really stumbling towards the end. ;-(
Sorry to hear.
Thanks.
And has to be hard on you to see her struggle.
It's hard on both of us and yes, especially so when she goes to say
something then gives up because she can't get it out. This is someone
who took and passed her bike test at 50 and got her G7 Radio Amateur
Licence with me, (whilst heavily pregnant) just to share it all with me.
I have now had to add a big external button on her PC so she can still
turn it on and and am labelling light switches etc (the Home Automation system deals with most lights automatically).
<snip>
Yup. A mate admits he really doesn't care about animals over his own
teste pleasure but admits he's also a hypocrite as he couldn't kill an
animal himself. Maybe he's never made that connection that most do if
only with their pets?
We all have areas where we blind ourselves.
Yeah, it's just a shame when it has such victims.
For a while my mate fell into the classic stereotype of thinking
veganism was funny and sent me cartoon thing over Whatsapp. I replied
that I couldn't really take animal cruelty as funny and he seemed to get
the message.
<snip>
Not around here... though Sprouts is not that uncommon.
I can't say I've ever heard of it (Nth London)?
Just in America, and not all of it:
https://www.sprouts.com/stores/
Ah, that explains it. I forgot this might have been cross posted out of uk.comp.sys.mac. ;-)
It focuses on fresh produce at a good price... and health foods NOT at a good
price. LOL!
No, some do seem to play on the wholee fresh / organic thing eh.
<snip>
We normally have some, often fried with a breakfast or sliced with
cheese on toast in the winter or as-is with salads in the summer.
Cheese! Say it ain't so! :)
Sorry, see, when I mention *any* food (and not living creature parts or
their excretions) I'm talking of just that. So I could say scheese or
some such but to me it's just 'cheese', or 'milk', or 'burger'.
Not being ripe... yeah... no good. Get a ripe one and they can be very tasty.
Ok. I did buy some in a jar from Lidl the other day in the form of a
'spread' as well but haven't tried it yet.
Of course different people like different things. I have a couple that are >> ripe -- perhaps getting just past too ripe. Maybe I will make a quick video to
show you what they look like.
Cool.
One test: when you cut them in half the seed should be easy to get out. If not
it is not ripe enough. Of course you only can do that test AFTER you have cut
it open... but you get a feel for it from the firmness and color.
Yeah. On the first one I cut round the centre to the seed then twisted
the top off and then levered the pip out with a spoon (tales of people stabbing themselves in the hand trying to spear the stone etc). Then cut
the halves up like a melon and we nibbled the 'meat' off?
<snip>
The soup is not, as far as I know, a common use. I blend them up in the broth.
It adds a creaminess I really like.
Yeah, sounds nice. I did a (vegan) Cream of Mushroom soup the other day
that worked out ok.
Modified from this recipe:
https://tiphero.com/avocado-chicken-tortilla-soup
Skimmed and bookmarked.
What's 'kosher salt' OOI, or what's not kosher about everyday salt?
I believe some sugar (possibly in the states) isn't vegan as they use
animal bones to whiten it? ;-(
Of course you do not have to have the chicken. It does add flavor, but I have
had it with baked, pressed tofu and it works well with that. Pressing,
seasoning, and baking the tofu takes a lot more time though.
Funnily I did us a half a sweet potato each for lunch with some melted cheese, onion, baked beans, tomato, some tofu cut into little slices and fried both sides and sausage. The Mrs really seemed to enjoy it. ;-)
Today's plan is to try to re-make some shrimp tacos I made the other day.
Dad used to get sea food from a local mobile vendor now and again
(cockles, muscles, whelks, winkles, muscles etc) for us to eat with
bread and butter and vinegar but I was never really a fan.
* Pan fry the shrimp with taco seasoning (in my case home made, low FODMAP) >> * Dice some avocados and heirloom tomatoes, toss in fresh squeezed lime juice
* Heat up some corn tortillas
Make tacos. Easy and VERY yummy. Also not vegetarian (shrimp). They are wild >> caught.
And these days full of microplastics ... no thanks. Plus I really never
liked eating anything with a face or legs ... ;-(
From the last time I made them: https://jmp.sh/DPZzyiGa
I can't seem to open that page here? (504 Gateway Time-out).
I did have some cheese on them. It was not needed. Will not use it this time.
I picked up a packet of frozen prawn tempura from Lidl the other day. I
had them before but think I over cooked them a bit. I have a gas oven
and don't often bother pre-heating, I just add a couple of mins to the cooking time. Not really had 'tempura' before in any form so wasn't sure
what to expect.
<snip>
Because we aren't foodies, I often go for the Lidl frozen stir-fry veg
bags.
I often use frozen. They are as healthy but not as crisp. Will often mix in >> some fresh red peppers or other things for more crunch.
Yeah, same here. As an energy saving experiment I bought some new
cookware and have a single Ikea induction hob and to do a stir fry for
two cost about 0.06 GBP on electricity. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
On 23/01/2023 10:03, T i m was mistaken when he claimed ...
I believe most of the avocados consumed in the UK come from the Netherlands
You need to improve your research skills, young T i m! ;-)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/87a56e5c-6d41-4495-9e22-523efb6b4cb0
On Friday, 20 January 2023 at 18:38:42 UTC, Chris wrote:
whisky-dave <[email protected]> wrote:
On Wednesday, 18 January 2023 at 21:22:48 UTC, Joerg Lorenz wrote:Like what? The price difference is £1,350. That's lots of extras.
Am 18.01.23 um 19:36 schrieb Chris:
whisky-dave <[email protected]> wrote:This one is really tempting!
I'm still on my iPhone7 and 2014 iMac
Nothing new has come out yet to make me want to upgrade the studioi Macs are tempting
but not tempting enough for the £3.5k I'd have to spend .
Have a look at the new mini announced yesterday. There's quite a lot of >>>>> power for not a lot of money (for a Mac).
A lot of Bang for the Buck!
Haven't looked at them too closely but by the time I've added extras
I;d want it's almost
to the price of the studio.
extra RAM maybe a better graphics card and larger SSD.
Taking the high end mini at £1399, 16GB RAM
+£400 for 32GB
Studio 32GB £1999
My main issues is as to whether the Apple monitor is really worth the money asked forIf you know you need it, then it's worth it. If you're not sure, then it's >> not.
as there are so many good monitors for around half the price.
define need it I bought a LG for my mac mini looks OK until you compare it with my iMac .
Also I cant change the brightness or contrast using the mac itself so have ton using the
monitor to adjust things plus when using it last night helping a friend
out I had trouble seeing anything from an angle
if I weren;t actually sitting in front of it.
Just get a good Dell monitor.
I've ehard there are better ones than dell BenQ being one but I;d look
into it before and hope to see one somewhere.
You seem a good man to take care of her the way you do.
I walk less than I "should" -- given my own POTS
/ dysautonomia --
And sorry to hear of that / likewise.
Thanks. It can be challenging... but after years of working to figure out what
was going I was finally properly diagnosed.
That is half the battle.
Another
key to it was finding the low FODMAP diet (and modifying as needed for me). It
is not for everyone, but it has made a huge difference in my life.
And even if it wasn't it's still nice to keep going for the goal.
Yes. Was bummed the one day I did not reach the goal -- but I was rather sick!
Really, though, Covid was only significant for me for one day, and after that it was like a mild head cold that lasts just a few more days. Half a week of being sick was not too bad. Did trigger some of my POTS stuff so felt unwell for a while after, but that is true often when I get any type of sickness.
Knowing there is nothing you can do to reverse it... or really stop it. Heart breaking.
For a while my mate fell into the classic stereotype of thinking
veganism was funny and sent me cartoon thing over Whatsapp. I replied
that I couldn't really take animal cruelty as funny and he seemed to get
the message.
I can handle such humor... but also respect you not wanting to see it.
Yes. I am in the US... AZ to be more specific.
They have some stuff that is priced reasonably... but then some things that are just insane. Helps to shop around. I suppose that is true of most stores, but they are more extreme than many. But their produce is -- for the US -- very good. The US is not exactly known for fresh produce and good food, esp. in the desert states.
Given how you described the non-dairy cheese before I could have put 2 and 2 together. Got it.
...
And I did. Even had a non-rope one to compare:
https://jmp.sh/jx9lHCKM
Even with video and screens not keeping colors exact you should be able to see
the color difference. The ripe one is very dark, almost black.
The other link to the same site that did not work for you -- the site was down. Seems back up. Hopefully stays that way.
Should be easy if ripe. Might not be quite as easy as the one in my video, but
should not be a challenge.
What's 'kosher salt' OOI, or what's not kosher about everyday salt?
It is the type salt they used to use in making food kosher (was used to help draw blood out of meat, if I recall correctly). It has bigger crystals than "regular" salt.
I believe some sugar (possibly in the states) isn't vegan as they use
animal bones to whiten it? ;-(
Would not surprise me.
Sounds good. I eat quite a few sweet potatoes. Just cook and eat. Rarely put anything on them.
And these days full of microplastics ... no thanks. Plus I really never
liked eating anything with a face or legs ... ;-(
Yeah, figured the shrimp would be a no-go for you.
From the last time I made them: https://jmp.sh/DPZzyiGa
I can't seem to open that page here? (504 Gateway Time-out).
Site is back up. At least now. But does show shrimp -- so if that is a problem
don't click.
I picked up a packet of frozen prawn tempura from Lidl the other day. I
had them before but think I over cooked them a bit. I have a gas oven
and don't often bother pre-heating, I just add a couple of mins to the
cooking time. Not really had 'tempura' before in any form so wasn't sure
what to expect.
Should be crispy.
I would not expect the frozen stuff to be -- unless in an
air fryer or the like.
Yeah, same here. As an energy saving experiment I bought some new
cookware and have a single Ikea induction hob and to do a stir fry for
two cost about 0.06 GBP on electricity. ;-)
I use gas... and usually ventilate while using. With the news coming out I am happy I do.
On 23/01/2023 17:51, Snit wrote:
<snip>
You seem a good man to take care of her the way you do.
I try but I know I can do better. The problem for me is my starting
position both with her (all the hobbies we shared and she built the
kitcar with me etc) and my role in IT support and then IT training when
I'm only really used to dealing with technically literate adults.
So whilst I see a 70+ year old woman in front of me I have to think and
deal with her like a toddler. I could get her to go and make us a cup of
tea and she would probably be ok but what if she scalds herself.
The main lounge light is smart but I have left the original electrical switches so the automatic system can be overridden. Because I haven't
got complete occupancy sensing sorted out yet, the said light needs to
be turned on and off manually. To do that there is a Philips Hue 4
button remote on the wall beside the std switch and *every* night she
will ask if we have to turn that light off manually. Last night she left
the room after me, asked the question, I said yes, so when I came down
early this morning and went to turn the light on using the smart remote,
I found it turned off electrically with the switch.
I am yet to make up labels for that particular switch with 'Do not use'
on the old switch and Light On, Light Off (I'll ignore the bright up /
down buttons) over the std Power symbol and the word 'Hue' where light
off will go.
So I have maybe a steeper learning (and / or acceptance) curve than many
who worked in a different field, didn't have such a (worldly) smart wife
or was more patient. ;-(
I walk less than I "should" -- given my own POTS
/ dysautonomia --
And sorry to hear of that / likewise.
Thanks. It can be challenging... but after years of working to figure out what
was going I was finally properly diagnosed.
Yeah, we are on the cusp of that point I believe. I've seen it for a few years of course ...
That is half the battle.
Yeah.
Another
key to it was finding the low FODMAP diet (and modifying as needed for me). It
is not for everyone, but it has made a huge difference in my life.
That's good.
<snip>
And even if it wasn't it's still nice to keep going for the goal.
Yes. Was bummed the one day I did not reach the goal -- but I was rather sick!
Really, though, Covid was only significant for me for one day, and after that
it was like a mild head cold that lasts just a few more days. Half a week of >> being sick was not too bad. Did trigger some of my POTS stuff so felt unwell >> for a while after, but that is true often when I get any type of sickness.
Yeah, we had all the Covid shots (and recently had the non-egg-based flu shots) and stayed clear of it till quite recently when we dropped our
guard and met up with a mate visiting the UK from Canada.
For me it was similar to you and for the Mrs it was flatter and a bit
longer.
<snip>
Knowing there is nothing you can do to reverse it... or really stop it. Heart
breaking.
It is ... and life changing ... her 750cc Yamaha motorbike, her solo
cycle, her archery bow, the tandem, the camping and boating gear ...
<snip>
For a while my mate fell into the classic stereotype of thinking
veganism was funny and sent me cartoon thing over Whatsapp. I replied
that I couldn't really take animal cruelty as funny and he seemed to get >>> the message.
I can handle such humor... but also respect you not wanting to see it.
I could handle it but I really felt / feel it was misplaced. His partner
was on dialysis for the last couple of years of her life and I could
probably find some cartoons about that but I wouldn't.
https://ibb.co/B2GfmfC
It's different if you are a comedian talking to a general audience and
you mention cancer or some such. The chances are many in the audience
will have lost someone to the disease but it's not personal in that
scenario. Replace the word 'vegan' with 'someone who doesn't support
cruelty to animals' and the 'joke' normally falls flat in any case.
<snip>
Yes. I am in the US... AZ to be more specific.
Cool.
Can you imagine that the City of Greater London has 2 million more
people in it that your whole state (7.2 v 8.9M) ;-)
<snip>
They have some stuff that is priced reasonably... but then some things that >> are just insane. Helps to shop around. I suppose that is true of most stores,
but they are more extreme than many. But their produce is -- for the US -- >> very good. The US is not exactly known for fresh produce and good food, esp. >> in the desert states.
Ah, ok.
<snip>
Given how you described the non-dairy cheese before I could have put 2 and 2 >> together. Got it.
Yeah, it just comes from a different mindset, animals (or their
excretions) just not being food for us (in 2023 and with all the alternatives).
...
<snip>
And I did. Even had a non-rope one to compare:
https://jmp.sh/jx9lHCKM
Cool, thanks for that. A picture (especially a moving one) 'speaks 1000 words'. ;-)
Do I detect a slight tinge of Canadian in your accent?
Even with video and screens not keeping colors exact you should be able to see
the color difference. The ripe one is very dark, almost black.
Yes, I could see that (and certainly the difference) fine.
The other link to the same site that did not work for you -- the site was
down. Seems back up. Hopefully stays that way.
Ah, ok, typical for me ...
<snip>
Noted.
Should be easy if ripe. Might not be quite as easy as the one in my video, but
should not be a challenge.
<snip>
What's 'kosher salt' OOI, or what's not kosher about everyday salt?
It is the type salt they used to use in making food kosher (was used to help >> draw blood out of meat, if I recall correctly). It has bigger crystals than >> "regular" salt.
Ah, like we generally have 'chemical salt' and 'sea salt' (often coming
from the East Coast of England (Maldon) where my Dad had a small sailing cruiser. ;-)
I believe some sugar (possibly in the states) isn't vegan as they use
animal bones to whiten it? ;-(
Would not surprise me.
It is spooky where animal products end up, like gelatin in sweets or
stearic acid in car tyres (although many tyre Co's are now moving to a
plant based stearic acid).
https://ibb.co/GTJZT8W
<snip>
Sounds good. I eat quite a few sweet potatoes. Just cook and eat. Rarely put >> anything on them.
Yeah, 'Jacket and xyz' is quite a common combo over here. Often cheese, beans, tuna or like a Spag bol sauce etc.
<snip>
And these days full of microplastics ... no thanks. Plus I really never
liked eating anything with a face or legs ... ;-(
Yeah, figured the shrimp would be a no-go for you.
;-)
Basically if it's alive and trying to have a life, we (vegans) prefer it
did ... especially because of those of us with the choice (eg, not their normal predators etc).
From the last time I made them: https://jmp.sh/DPZzyiGa
I can't seem to open that page here? (504 Gateway Time-out).
Site is back up. At least now. But does show shrimp -- so if that is a problem
don't click.
Hehe. I don't have a problem with seeing animals like that (it's a shame
etc but 'it happens' etc) but thanks for the warning. ;-)
It's this sort of thing I find sad (not gory).
https://ibb.co/3BTt5zv
<snip>
I picked up a packet of frozen prawn tempura from Lidl the other day. I
had them before but think I over cooked them a bit. I have a gas oven
and don't often bother pre-heating, I just add a couple of mins to the
cooking time. Not really had 'tempura' before in any form so wasn't sure >>> what to expect.
Should be crispy.
Yeah, I think these were a bit too crispy. ;-)
I would not expect the frozen stuff to be -- unless in an
air fryer or the like.
Just the gas oven?
<snip>
Yeah, same here. As an energy saving experiment I bought some new
cookware and have a single Ikea induction hob and to do a stir fry for
two cost about 0.06 GBP on electricity. ;-)
I use gas... and usually ventilate while using. With the news coming out I am
happy I do.
Yeah. Part of my Home Automation system I have and log indoor CO2 and particulate levels but would like a smart Carbon Monoxide sensor as
well.
In the lounge here that has been closed up most of the day (it was
-5 DegC outside last night and only 3 out there now) the CO2 level was
400 ppm this morning (the current outdoor level in most places) but is
around 1230 now. ;-(
Cheers, T i m
I had all my shots but the newest multivalent one... which I have read is not working as well as they hoped. Still worth getting.
Truth to a lot of humor people say others are "too sensitive" too. I do not defend it, but have become somewhat numb to it. Not saying that is good.
Cool.
Not usually. LOL!
Can you imagine that the City of Greater London has 2 million more
people in it that your whole state (7.2 v 8.9M) ;-)
Yikes.
And I am not in a big city. The whole area has a little over 100,000.
Well, it is growing fast... but still not big.
Yeah, it just comes from a different mindset, animals (or their
excretions) just not being food for us (in 2023 and with all the
alternatives).
I might try some alternative cheeses again... but they are also more expensive
I am sure.
Do I detect a slight tinge of Canadian in your accent?
No, but I get that or Australian a fair amount. I grew up with a pretty bad speech impediment (slight "oddities" to my throat and palate). I enunciate things a bit different than most Americans.
Chemical salt sounds scary. LOL!
You can get non-animal gelatin. Again more expensive.
Yeah, 'Jacket and xyz' is quite a common combo over here. Often cheese,
beans, tuna or like a Spag bol sauce etc.
More common with "regular" potatoes here.
Make senses. I am less worried about shrimp than the abuse in the meat industry.
Charcoal is good for the digestion!
That works... but for crisping better (hopefully without burnin) air fryers are all the rage here.
A convection oven with a fan to keep very high heated
air moving around the food.
Yeah. Part of my Home Automation system I have and log indoor CO2 and
particulate levels but would like a smart Carbon Monoxide sensor as
well.
The current concern is nitrogen dioxide.
In the lounge here that has been closed up most of the day (it was
-5 DegC outside last night and only 3 out there now) the CO2 level was
400 ppm this morning (the current outdoor level in most places) but is
around 1230 now. ;-(
I have a CO2 detector... but never look at the reading. If it beeps I will worry.
On 23/01/2023 20:05, Snit wrote:
<snips>
I had all my shots but the newest multivalent one... which I have read is not
working as well as they hoped. Still worth getting.
Our GP wouldn't offer us the vegan flu jab last year so we were prepared
to go without (calculated risk, we didn't go out in public, use public transport, socialise much etc) but when we went for the Covid jab they
asked if we had had our flu jab and if not, would we like one. We
explained the vegan issue with the flu jab suited for our age being
based on three fertilised eggs / jab and they were happy to give us the
cell based one.
This year we had the flu jab we wanted at the local chemists. The idea
that given our risk assessment, that was better than nothing. ;-)
<snip>
Truth to a lot of humor people say others are "too sensitive" too. I do not >> defend it, but have become somewhat numb to it. Not saying that is good.
No, but I think if you are a rational person you can 'understand' the
premise / intention etc. I wasn't actually offended by my mates
anti-vegan jibes, I just wanted to get a point across that it was very
much not just a fed diet.
<snip>
Cool.
Not usually. LOL!
No, you have quite a beach nearby eh. ;-)
Can you imagine that the City of Greater London has 2 million more
people in it that your whole state (7.2 v 8.9M) ;-)
Yikes.
Quite.
And I am not in a big city. The whole area has a little over 100,000.
Well, it is growing fast... but still not big.
Enjoy the space while you can then. ;-)
<snip>
Yeah, it just comes from a different mindset, animals (or their
excretions) just not being food for us (in 2023 and with all the
alternatives).
I might try some alternative cheeses again... but they are also more expensive
I am sure.
I think all cheese is more expensive now but it's likely the cow juice
based stuff will go up and the plant based come down in time.
<snip>
Do I detect a slight tinge of Canadian in your accent?
No, but I get that or Australian a fair amount. I grew up with a pretty bad >> speech impediment (slight "oddities" to my throat and palate). I enunciate >> things a bit different than most Americans.
The only thing that I thought I detected was a Canadian style 'oot' as
in out?
<snip>
Chemical salt sounds scary. LOL!
It's sodium chloride isn't it?
<snip>
You can get non-animal gelatin. Again more expensive.
But far less disgusting!
<snip>
Yeah, 'Jacket and xyz' is quite a common combo over here. Often cheese,
beans, tuna or like a Spag bol sauce etc.
More common with "regular" potatoes here.
Yes, and traditionally here but I think the sweet potato it becoming
more common. I think it's 'better' nutritionally than a std spud in
some components, many times so?
<snip>
Agreed. I think most people have a scale starting at the creatures with
Make senses. I am less worried about shrimp than the abuse in the meat
industry.
the higher levels of sentience and working down from there. That said,
I'll still put a wasp or fly out rather than killing them, especially considering the UK is one of the most wildlife depleted countries in the world. ;-(
Charcoal is good for the digestion!
Whist also being a carcinogen. ;-(
That works... but for crisping better (hopefully without burnin) air fryers >> are all the rage here.
Yeah, I think there are here too but so are also over-expensive etc.
My neighbour has an air-fryer and he said he'd do some veg for us to see
how it coped (like parsnip).
A convection oven with a fan to keep very high heated
air moving around the food.
Yeah. No fan in ours. ;-(
Yeah. Part of my Home Automation system I have and log indoor CO2 and
particulate levels but would like a smart Carbon Monoxide sensor as
well.
The current concern is nitrogen dioxide.
Oh, I'd not heard about that?
In the lounge here that has been closed up most of the day (it was
-5 DegC outside last night and only 3 out there now) the CO2 level was
400 ppm this morning (the current outdoor level in most places) but is
around 1230 now. ;-(
I have a CO2 detector... but never look at the reading. If it beeps I will >> worry.
Mine is just a sensor (made using a CO2 sensor device connected to an
ESP32 microcontroller that reports into my Home Assistant system and
it's up to me what I then do with that. Eg, I have it displaying on a
tiny TFT on the microcontroller and being logged and displayed on a
desktop gauge but I could create an automation to trigger an alarm sound
on a Google Home Mini speaker or flash the house lights or send me a
text etc. If you have automated vents you could also trigger them on /
open etc.
I have local sensors for temperature and humidity in each room, air
pressure, light level, CO2 and particulates and you can mix them as
triggers and conditions. Like turn the dehumidifier on (via a smart
socket) if the humidity is above 70% and the temperature above 15 DegC
after 10:00. Because the smart socket also monitors the power consumed
by the dehumidifier you can log that (running costs) and send an alert
when the power consumption reflects a 'Tank full' state.
https://www.home-assistant.io/
And all open source ... ;-)
Cheers, T i m
On 23/01/2023 17:51, Snit wrote:
Of course different people like different things. I have a couple that are >>>> ripe -- perhaps getting just past too ripe. Maybe I will make a quick video to
show you what they look like.
Cool.
And I did. Even had a non-rope one to compare:
https://jmp.sh/jx9lHCKM
Even with video and screens not keeping colors exact you should be able to see
the color difference. The ripe one is very dark, almost black.
That's excellent!
Congratulations :-D
I do wish SC could provide videos of equal standard. Having voice
content makes a huge difference.
Of course different people like different things. I have a couple that are >>> ripe -- perhaps getting just past too ripe. Maybe I will make a quick video to
show you what they look like.
Cool.
And I did. Even had a non-rope one to compare:
https://jmp.sh/jx9lHCKM
Even with video and screens not keeping colors exact you should be able to see
the color difference. The ripe one is very dark, almost black.
David Brooks <[email protected]> wrote:
On 23/01/2023 10:03, T i m was mistaken when he claimed ...
I believe most of the avocados consumed in the UK come from the Netherlands >>You need to improve your research skills, young T i m! ;-)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/87a56e5c-6d41-4495-9e22-523efb6b4cb0
That doesn't really make the point. Try this instead: https://www.freshelaexporters.com/avocado/imports/united-kingdom
The netherlands only provides a "small volume". Spain is in the top 5 and I suspect that'll be mostly in the summer. The other countries are in Asia, Africa or South america.
I am at least moderately allergic to raw egg, so I need the non-egg one. Harder to find.
Makes complete sense. I think a lot of people do as we have said, just shut the harm away and accept things as they are. And some just do not care much about others -- human or animal -- unless it impacts them.
No, you have quite a beach nearby eh. ;-)
A very large beach... minus the ocean.
And I am not in a big city. The whole area has a little over 100,000.
Well, it is growing fast... but still not big.
Enjoy the space while you can then. ;-)
Yes. It is growing too fast for my tastes.
I think all cheese is more expensive now but it's likely the cow juice
based stuff will go up and the plant based come down in time.
I hope so.
The only thing that I thought I detected was a Canadian style 'oot' as
in out?
Curious. Will have to listen again.
Yes, and traditionally here but I think the sweet potato it becoming
more common. I think it's 'better' nutritionally than a std spud in
some components, many times so?
That is my understanding. Lower glycemic and more nutrients. And tastes better. But not quite as versatile.
I try to catch spiders and take them outside... but if they are hard to catch I have been known to kill them.
My neighbour has an air-fryer and he said he'd do some veg for us to see
how it coped (like parsnip).
I do not have one but have used one a bit. I do like how they work.
The current concern is nitrogen dioxide.
Oh, I'd not heard about that?
Big news in the US... with folks on the right pretending that wanting better regulation on harmful things means the government will come and take you stove
from you. It is sorta insane.
I have local sensors for temperature and humidity in each room, air
pressure, light level, CO2 and particulates and you can mix them as
triggers and conditions. Like turn the dehumidifier on (via a smart
socket) if the humidity is above 70% and the temperature above 15 DegC
after 10:00. Because the smart socket also monitors the power consumed
by the dehumidifier you can log that (running costs) and send an alert
when the power consumption reflects a 'Tank full' state.
Closest I have is a smart thermostat -- needlessly hooked up to my Alexa. I control it with my phone more often than not. Easier to set programs.
whisky-dave <[email protected]> wrote:
On Friday, 20 January 2023 at 18:38:42 UTC, Chris wrote:
whisky-dave <[email protected]> wrote:
On Wednesday, 18 January 2023 at 21:22:48 UTC, Joerg Lorenz wrote:Like what? The price difference is £1,350. That's lots of extras.
Am 18.01.23 um 19:36 schrieb Chris:
whisky-dave <[email protected]> wrote:This one is really tempting!
I'm still on my iPhone7 and 2014 iMac
Nothing new has come out yet to make me want to upgrade the studioi Macs are tempting
but not tempting enough for the £3.5k I'd have to spend .
Have a look at the new mini announced yesterday. There's quite a lot of
power for not a lot of money (for a Mac).
A lot of Bang for the Buck!
Haven't looked at them too closely but by the time I've added extras
I;d want it's almost
to the price of the studio.
extra RAM maybe a better graphics card and larger SSD.
Taking the high end mini at £1399, 16GB RAMI mean if you're looking to spend two grand you'll end up spending two grand, but it will be significantly faster than your 2014 imac.
+£400 for 32GB
Studio 32GB £1999
My main issues is as to whether the Apple monitor is really worth the money asked forIf you know you need it, then it's worth it. If you're not sure, then it's
as there are so many good monitors for around half the price.
not.
define need it I bought a LG for my mac mini looks OK until you compare it with my iMac .Yeah you need to pick the right technology to suit your needs.
Also I cant change the brightness or contrast using the mac itself so have ton using the
monitor to adjust things plus when using it last night helping a friend out I had trouble seeing anything from an angle
if I weren;t actually sitting in front of it.
Just get a good Dell monitor.
I've ehard there are better ones than dell BenQ being one but I;d look into it before and hope to see one somewhere.Never seen BenQ highlighted as a good monitor, but these days the mid range is very congested and the panels are all made by the same couple of manufacturers.
On 23/01/2023 21:49, Snit wrote:
<snip>
I am at least moderately allergic to raw egg, so I need the non-egg one. Harder to find.And this is the crazy thing. If we were allergic to egg we would have
been given the jab we were given. Because we aren't but don't want to
support animal cruelty and exploitation, we had to seek them out
elsewhere. Now if we couldn't have some specific animal based drug for religious reasons we would have been accommodated, even though ethical veganism is also a 'protected characteristic' in the UK?
I try to catch spiders and take them outside... but if they are hard to catchSure ... and ironically why I generally get the Mrs to deal with spider
I have been known to kill them.
as I'm concerned about hurting them. If she's not about I'll often use a fluffy dusting type stick and get them to climb onto it then there is
less chance of them getting injured.
Apparently there are many plants (inc fruit / veg that we eat) that are *only* pollinated by flies?
On 23/01/2023 21:49, Snit wrote:
<snip>
I am at least moderately allergic to raw egg, so I need the non-egg one.
Harder to find.
And this is the crazy thing. If we were allergic to egg we would have
been given the jab we were given. Because we aren't but don't want to
support animal cruelty and exploitation, we had to seek them out
elsewhere. Now if we couldn't have some specific animal based drug for religious reasons we would have been accommodated, even though ethical veganism is also a 'protected characteristic' in the UK?
<snip>
Makes complete sense. I think a lot of people do as we have said, just shut >> the harm away and accept things as they are. And some just do not care much >> about others -- human or animal -- unless it impacts them.
Yup, and some people really / actually need to suffer such directly
before they 'get it' (and so generally don't).
<snip>
No, you have quite a beach nearby eh. ;-)
A very large beach... minus the ocean.
Yeah, hehe.
<snip>
And I am not in a big city. The whole area has a little over 100,000.
Well, it is growing fast... but still not big.
Enjoy the space while you can then. ;-)
Yes. It is growing too fast for my tastes.
But I guess this is all part of the NIMBY mindset. If you had nowhere
to live you would would also be one of those potentially impinging on
other peoples 'tastes'?
I know what you mean though and that's partly why our daughter has
decided not to have children. Not just the numbers of us in general but
how shit humanity has become and not wanting to bring yet another
innocent life into that world.
<snip>
I think all cheese is more expensive now but it's likely the cow juice
based stuff will go up and the plant based come down in time.
I hope so.
I'm pretty sure that is how it will be. It will because it's simply no
longer sustainable to do it the old exploitation way and that's before
they have fully developed 'other' alternatives (like bio milks).
<snip>
The only thing that I thought I detected was a Canadian style 'oot' as
in out?
Curious. Will have to listen again.
It's the 'out', at 32s that was a good example as it resonates with the 'about' pronunciation I often hear from Canadians:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecoGoCwr2Rk
<snip>
Yes, and traditionally here but I think the sweet potato it becoming
more common. I think it's 'better' nutritionally than a std spud in
some components, many times so?
That is my understanding. Lower glycemic and more nutrients. And tastes
better. But not quite as versatile.
The Mrs loves sweet potato and chunky chips (fries) so I made her some
sweet potato chunky chips the other day and she loved them. ;-)
<snip>
I try to catch spiders and take them outside... but if they are hard to catch
I have been known to kill them.
Sure ... and ironically why I generally get the Mrs to deal with spider
as I'm concerned about hurting them. If she's not about I'll often use a fluffy dusting type stick and get them to climb onto it then there is
less chance of them getting injured.
Apparently there are many plants (inc fruit / veg that we eat) that are *only* pollinated by flies?
<snip>
My neighbour has an air-fryer and he said he'd do some veg for us to see >>> how it coped (like parsnip).
I do not have one but have used one a bit. I do like how they work.
So could you give me an example of what non-animal based food they might
be better than any traditional alternatives (for whatever reason) for Snit?
<snip>
The current concern is nitrogen dioxide.
Oh, I'd not heard about that?
Big news in the US... with folks on the right pretending that wanting better >> regulation on harmful things means the government will come and take you stove
from you. It is sorta insane.
So moving away from burning natural gas indoors and going electric for example?
<snip>
I have local sensors for temperature and humidity in each room, air
pressure, light level, CO2 and particulates and you can mix them as
triggers and conditions. Like turn the dehumidifier on (via a smart
socket) if the humidity is above 70% and the temperature above 15 DegC
after 10:00. Because the smart socket also monitors the power consumed
by the dehumidifier you can log that (running costs) and send an alert
when the power consumption reflects a 'Tank full' state.
Closest I have is a smart thermostat -- needlessly hooked up to my Alexa. I >> control it with my phone more often than not. Easier to set programs.
Yeah ... but part of the whole Home Assistant philosophy is keeping your
IoT affairs local, not have Google or Amazon knowing when you are
turning your lights on and off etc. Not only the privacy issues (that I personally and not overly bothered about) but that if the Internet goes
down, nothing works. Keeping it all local means that's not an issue.
I was trained as an electronics tech with British Telecom (or 'The Post Office' as they were then) and then worked for Kodak on microfilm and
fiche kit then a local Datacomms Co as a Field Support Tech then ran the telephone Helpdesk and local LAN. Then ended up with the IT training (<> very much the hardest job of all of them).
So I have always loved electronics (I used to repair stuff for people
when I was in primary school <g>) and that led me into computers and datacomms so was lucky my career reflected my hobbies.
And that's why the whole Home Assistant project is a really good fit for
me, enough hands on with electronics, computing and comms to make me
feel happy / comfortable but with the coding side that I have never been
good with to keep me on my toes. ;-)
Luckily, there is enough support out there for HA and the likes of the
ESP32 microcontrollers that I can often stand on the shoulders of giants
or get (coding) help when required.
To me, there is nothing more rewarding (in this area etc) to have a need
or consider a function, research it, provision then use it to good
effect and have it do so reliably from then on etc.
Cheers, T i m
On Jan 24, 2023 at 3:48:11 AM MST, "T i m" wrote <[email protected]>:
On 23/01/2023 21:49, Snit wrote:
<snip>
The Mrs loves sweet potato and chunky chips (fries) so I made her some sweet potato chunky chips the other day and she loved them. ;-)I made some the other day, too.
On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 14:53:23 UTC, Snit wrote:
On Jan 24, 2023 at 3:48:11 AM MST, "T i m" wrote
<[email protected]>:
On 23/01/2023 21:49, Snit wrote:
<snip>
I made some the other day, too.
The Mrs loves sweet potato and chunky chips (fries) so I made her some
sweet potato chunky chips the other day and she loved them. ;-)
Apparently is part of your 5 per day (being 1) where as 'spuds' don't count.
Although I never found out the exact reason.
To stop people claiming 5 portions of chips made up their 5 a day!
On 24/01/2023 16:36, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 14:53:23 UTC, Snit wrote:
On Jan 24, 2023 at 3:48:11 AM MST, "T i m" wrote
<[email protected]>:
On 23/01/2023 21:49, Snit wrote:
<snip>
I made some the other day, too.
The Mrs loves sweet potato and chunky chips (fries) so I made her some >>> sweet potato chunky chips the other day and she loved them. ;-)
Apparently is part of your 5 per day (being 1) where as 'spuds' don't count.
Although I never found out the exact reason.
To stop people claiming 5 portions of chips made up their 5 a day!
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
On 24/01/2023 22:10, Graeme Wall wrote:
To stop people claiming 5 portions of chips made up their 5 a day!
I maintain that the slice of lemon in my gin is one of my five.
On 24/01/2023 22:10, Graeme Wall wrote:
To stop people claiming 5 portions of chips made up their 5 a day!
I maintain that the slice of lemon in my gin is one of my five.
On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 22:10:03 UTC, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 24/01/2023 16:36, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 14:53:23 UTC, Snit wrote:To stop people claiming 5 portions of chips made up their 5 a day!
On Jan 24, 2023 at 3:48:11 AM MST, "T i m" wrote
<[email protected]>:
On 23/01/2023 21:49, Snit wrote:
<snip>
I made some the other day, too.
The Mrs loves sweet potato and chunky chips (fries) so I made her some >>>>> sweet potato chunky chips the other day and she loved them. ;-)
Apparently is part of your 5 per day (being 1) where as 'spuds' don't count.
Although I never found out the exact reason.
How did you know I tried that ;-)
But maybe 5 potions of sweet potato chips might.
I'm suprised no chippies have taken this up.
But I did succeed in eating about 5 orange ice lollies that claimed that
they contained enough orange
that is counted as 1 per day of my 5 , so I ate 5 in a day and all I
ended up with was a stomach !.
all this bloody 5 a day crap !!!!!!
whisky-dave <[email protected]> wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 22:10:03 UTC, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 24/01/2023 16:36, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 14:53:23 UTC, Snit wrote:To stop people claiming 5 portions of chips made up their 5 a day!
On Jan 24, 2023 at 3:48:11 AM MST, "T i m" wrote
<[email protected]>:
On 23/01/2023 21:49, Snit wrote:
<snip>
I made some the other day, too.
The Mrs loves sweet potato and chunky chips (fries) so I made her some >>>>> sweet potato chunky chips the other day and she loved them. ;-)
Apparently is part of your 5 per day (being 1) where as 'spuds' don't count.
Although I never found out the exact reason.
How did you know I tried that ;-)
But maybe 5 potions of sweet potato chips might.
I'm suprised no chippies have taken this up.
But I did succeed in eating about 5 orange ice lollies that claimed that they contained enough orangeThe five a day is five different foods so eating five portions of broccoli don't count.
that is counted as 1 per day of my 5 , so I ate 5 in a day and all I
ended up with was a stomach !.
all this bloody 5 a day crap !!!!!!
Also 5 is considered a minimum, nowadays.
On Wednesday, 25 January 2023 at 16:27:39 UTC, Chris wrote:
whisky-dave <[email protected]> wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 22:10:03 UTC, Graeme Wall wrote:The five a day is five different foods so eating five portions of broccoli >> don't count.
On 24/01/2023 16:36, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 14:53:23 UTC, Snit wrote:To stop people claiming 5 portions of chips made up their 5 a day!
On Jan 24, 2023 at 3:48:11 AM MST, "T i m" wrote
<[email protected]>:
On 23/01/2023 21:49, Snit wrote:
<snip>
I made some the other day, too.
The Mrs loves sweet potato and chunky chips (fries) so I made her some >>>>>>> sweet potato chunky chips the other day and she loved them. ;-)
Apparently is part of your 5 per day (being 1) where as 'spuds' don't count.
Although I never found out the exact reason.
How did you know I tried that ;-)
But maybe 5 potions of sweet potato chips might.
I'm suprised no chippies have taken this up.
But I did succeed in eating about 5 orange ice lollies that claimed that >>> they contained enough orange
that is counted as 1 per day of my 5 , so I ate 5 in a day and all I
ended up with was a stomach !.
all this bloody 5 a day crap !!!!!!
Bloody 'ell you mean I have to eat 5 differnt flavours !
Also 5 is considered a minimum, nowadays.
That's bloody inflation for you, I blame BREXIT !
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