The last episode of the documentary series Frozen Planet II was just on
TV. They had how bad global warming is to the Arctic environment and
wild life. The ending claimed that we could change this and limit
global warming to an additional 1.5 degrees.
Species like penguins and polar bears are having a hard time, but it
should have been noted that things were worse during the last warm
period between glaciation. 130,000 years ago temperatures got warmer
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels
that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian Ocean
and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood and
terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
It seems that what we should be working on is determining how the ice
age species made it through that last environmental catastrophe that has >been occurring around every hundred thousand years for the last million >years. The intervals between warm periods have been getting longer in
the last half million years, and life on earth hasn't been able to adapt
to that very effectively. Most of the ice age megafauna likely nearly
went extinct the last warm period, and even though their populations
came back, the populations were likely not healthy enough to survive
this warm period. No wolly rhino, mastodons, and mammoths exist
anywhere. The giant bears and saber toothed cats that fed on them
didn't make it. Species like polar bears and penguins may not survive
this warm period, and could go the way of the mammoth.
We likely need to figure out how these species survived the last warm
period that became worse than current conditions. More ice melted last
time and sea levels were as high as they are predicting for this warm >period. In order to maintain viable populations we need to make those >regions that allowed the survival of ice age species available to these >animals. More of their habitat was lost last warm period, but the
existing arctic species found somewhere to survive. We need to figure
out what those survival places were and make them available to the
species that need them.
For the penguin example, it is obvious that the last warm period the
Adele penguins had to find some place else to nest. Finding where that
was and relocating animals is likely the best way to get a large enough >population through this warm period.
The issue with man made global warming is the prediction that was put
out a few years ago that we might skip the next glacial period and the
warm period might last a hundred thousand years longer than usual.
The warm period is not the normal environment for temperate latitudes.
For the last million years most of the time the temperate latitudes have
had an arctic alpine environment. Arctic species are adapted to what >usually exists. The current environment has them limited to the icy
regions of the world, and their environment has been rollercoasting for
the last couple million years.
Ron Okimoto
On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 21:09:58 -0600, RonO <[email protected]> wrote:
The last episode of the documentary series Frozen Planet II was just on
TV. They had how bad global warming is to the Arctic environment and
wild life. The ending claimed that we could change this and limit
global warming to an additional 1.5 degrees.
Species like penguins and polar bears are having a hard time, but it
should have been noted that things were worse during the last warm
period between glaciation. 130,000 years ago temperatures got warmer
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels
that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian Ocean
and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood and
terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
It seems that what we should be working on is determining how the ice
age species made it through that last environmental catastrophe that has
been occurring around every hundred thousand years for the last million
years. The intervals between warm periods have been getting longer in
the last half million years, and life on earth hasn't been able to adapt
to that very effectively. Most of the ice age megafauna likely nearly
went extinct the last warm period, and even though their populations
came back, the populations were likely not healthy enough to survive
this warm period. No wolly rhino, mastodons, and mammoths exist
anywhere. The giant bears and saber toothed cats that fed on them
didn't make it. Species like polar bears and penguins may not survive
this warm period, and could go the way of the mammoth.
We likely need to figure out how these species survived the last warm
period that became worse than current conditions. More ice melted last
time and sea levels were as high as they are predicting for this warm
period. In order to maintain viable populations we need to make those
regions that allowed the survival of ice age species available to these
animals. More of their habitat was lost last warm period, but the
existing arctic species found somewhere to survive. We need to figure
out what those survival places were and make them available to the
species that need them.
For the penguin example, it is obvious that the last warm period the
Adele penguins had to find some place else to nest. Finding where that
was and relocating animals is likely the best way to get a large enough
population through this warm period.
The issue with man made global warming is the prediction that was put
out a few years ago that we might skip the next glacial period and the
warm period might last a hundred thousand years longer than usual.
The warm period is not the normal environment for temperate latitudes.
For the last million years most of the time the temperate latitudes have
had an arctic alpine environment. Arctic species are adapted to what
usually exists. The current environment has them limited to the icy
regions of the world, and their environment has been rollercoasting for
the last couple million years.
Ron Okimoto
Looking at the last million years is geologically and biologically short-sighted. The climate on the Earth has been changing since Earth
was created 4.5bya. Life on Earth has been adapting to it since life
began at least 3.5bya.
The challenge "global warming" causes life isn't change, but its
rapidity. The irony of "global warming" is that we humans have done
it to ourselves unnecessarily.
On 3/5/2023 1:21 AM, jillery wrote:
On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 21:09:58 -0600, RonO <[email protected]> wrote:
The last episode of the documentary series Frozen Planet II was just on
TV. They had how bad global warming is to the Arctic environment and
wild life. The ending claimed that we could change this and limit
global warming to an additional 1.5 degrees.
Species like penguins and polar bears are having a hard time, but it
should have been noted that things were worse during the last warm
period between glaciation. 130,000 years ago temperatures got warmer
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels
that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian Ocean
and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood and
terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
It seems that what we should be working on is determining how the ice
age species made it through that last environmental catastrophe that has >>> been occurring around every hundred thousand years for the last million
years. The intervals between warm periods have been getting longer in
the last half million years, and life on earth hasn't been able to adapt >>> to that very effectively. Most of the ice age megafauna likely nearly
went extinct the last warm period, and even though their populations
came back, the populations were likely not healthy enough to survive
this warm period. No wolly rhino, mastodons, and mammoths exist
anywhere. The giant bears and saber toothed cats that fed on them
didn't make it. Species like polar bears and penguins may not survive
this warm period, and could go the way of the mammoth.
We likely need to figure out how these species survived the last warm
period that became worse than current conditions. More ice melted last
time and sea levels were as high as they are predicting for this warm
period. In order to maintain viable populations we need to make those
regions that allowed the survival of ice age species available to these
animals. More of their habitat was lost last warm period, but the
existing arctic species found somewhere to survive. We need to figure
out what those survival places were and make them available to the
species that need them.
For the penguin example, it is obvious that the last warm period the
Adele penguins had to find some place else to nest. Finding where that
was and relocating animals is likely the best way to get a large enough
population through this warm period.
The issue with man made global warming is the prediction that was put
out a few years ago that we might skip the next glacial period and the
warm period might last a hundred thousand years longer than usual.
The warm period is not the normal environment for temperate latitudes.
For the last million years most of the time the temperate latitudes have >>> had an arctic alpine environment. Arctic species are adapted to what
usually exists. The current environment has them limited to the icy
regions of the world, and their environment has been rollercoasting for
the last couple million years.
Ron Okimoto
Looking at the last million years is geologically and biologically
short-sighted. The climate on the Earth has been changing since Earth
was created 4.5bya. Life on Earth has been adapting to it since life
began at least 3.5bya.
Natural selection is short sighted. The planet started to cool around 3 >million years ago, and the current arctic species have been adapting to
that ecology since. Not only that, but the arctic species have had to
deal with long cold periods when life would have been prosperous for
them and shorter warmer periods when their habitat would have been
greatly reduced.
Initially the cycles were shorter (40,000 years or less) until around a >million years ago when the cycles got longer. For the last half million >years the cycles have been over 100,000 years long, and the fossil
genetics that we get from the ancient DNA of ice age mega fauna indicate >that their populations started a general decline in numbers. This was >likely due to the population bottlenecks suffered during the warm
periods that occurred after they had 100,000 years to readapt to glacial >conditions. Polar bears diverged from Grizzlies within the last million >years during the period when the cold periods was getting longer. The >longer cold periods likely caused issues because the tundra and alpine >species had longer to adapt to that environment, and they would have
been more poorly equipped (in terms of genetics) to deal with the warm >period and habitat reduction.
My guess is that when the intervals were shorter that the temperate
latitude species would have been more generalist, and could more easily >shift between warm and cold periods. But when the cold intervals got
longer the cold adapted species started to take over, and due to
selection became better adapted to the glacial conditions. The problem
is that these ice age species suffered during the warm periods. This
would have especially applied to the large herbivores and carnivores
that needed large territories. The ancient DNA indicates that the mega >fauna populations were in decline for the last half million to million >years. My take is that they were having issues adapting to the longer
cold periods.
The challenge "global warming" causes life isn't change, but its
rapidity. The irony of "global warming" is that we humans have done
it to ourselves unnecessarily.
No more rapid than the last time.
A lot of the mega fauna went extinct
during the current warm period thousands of years before humans could
have increased the warming. The last survivors of the extinct mega
fauna were not genetically healthy, and were not maintaining large
enough populations to get through the warm period. It is likely that
the last warm period when things got even warmer than they are now left
the survivors genetically depleted so even though their populations came >back during the long cold interval, they weren't genetically healthy
enough to survive this warm interval.
Natural selection is short sighted. It could not predict the change to >warmer periods during the time that the species were being adapted to >glacial conditions.
If these longer cold periods persist you would expect that eventually
the species that survived would be adapted to the long intervals, but it >would take a long time to sort out the ones that could adapt when they
have to compete against the species that adapt the fastest and best to
the cold period, and their only advantage is during the warm period.
Their populations would not be favored during the cold even as they
were adapting to it. They would have to be mediocre in both
environments, but even being mediocre during the warm period would help
them do better than the cold adapted species. It isn't as easy as
species adapting to winter and summer because the change doesn't come
every year or generation, but every hundred thousand years.
Ron Okimoto
On Sun, 5 Mar 2023 08:29:54 -0600, RonO <[email protected]> wrote:
On 3/5/2023 1:21 AM, jillery wrote:
On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 21:09:58 -0600, RonO <[email protected]> wrote:
The last episode of the documentary series Frozen Planet II was just on >>>> TV. They had how bad global warming is to the Arctic environment and
wild life. The ending claimed that we could change this and limit
global warming to an additional 1.5 degrees.
Species like penguins and polar bears are having a hard time, but it
should have been noted that things were worse during the last warm
period between glaciation. 130,000 years ago temperatures got warmer
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels
that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian Ocean >>>> and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood and
terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
It seems that what we should be working on is determining how the ice
age species made it through that last environmental catastrophe that has >>>> been occurring around every hundred thousand years for the last million >>>> years. The intervals between warm periods have been getting longer in >>>> the last half million years, and life on earth hasn't been able to adapt >>>> to that very effectively. Most of the ice age megafauna likely nearly >>>> went extinct the last warm period, and even though their populations
came back, the populations were likely not healthy enough to survive
this warm period. No wolly rhino, mastodons, and mammoths exist
anywhere. The giant bears and saber toothed cats that fed on them
didn't make it. Species like polar bears and penguins may not survive >>>> this warm period, and could go the way of the mammoth.
We likely need to figure out how these species survived the last warm
period that became worse than current conditions. More ice melted last >>>> time and sea levels were as high as they are predicting for this warm
period. In order to maintain viable populations we need to make those >>>> regions that allowed the survival of ice age species available to these >>>> animals. More of their habitat was lost last warm period, but the
existing arctic species found somewhere to survive. We need to figure >>>> out what those survival places were and make them available to the
species that need them.
For the penguin example, it is obvious that the last warm period the
Adele penguins had to find some place else to nest. Finding where that >>>> was and relocating animals is likely the best way to get a large enough >>>> population through this warm period.
The issue with man made global warming is the prediction that was put
out a few years ago that we might skip the next glacial period and the >>>> warm period might last a hundred thousand years longer than usual.
The warm period is not the normal environment for temperate latitudes. >>>> For the last million years most of the time the temperate latitudes have >>>> had an arctic alpine environment. Arctic species are adapted to what
usually exists. The current environment has them limited to the icy
regions of the world, and their environment has been rollercoasting for >>>> the last couple million years.
Ron Okimoto
Looking at the last million years is geologically and biologically
short-sighted. The climate on the Earth has been changing since Earth
was created 4.5bya. Life on Earth has been adapting to it since life
began at least 3.5bya.
Natural selection is short sighted. The planet started to cool around 3
million years ago, and the current arctic species have been adapting to
that ecology since. Not only that, but the arctic species have had to
deal with long cold periods when life would have been prosperous for
them and shorter warmer periods when their habitat would have been
greatly reduced.
Initially the cycles were shorter (40,000 years or less) until around a
million years ago when the cycles got longer. For the last half million
years the cycles have been over 100,000 years long, and the fossil
genetics that we get from the ancient DNA of ice age mega fauna indicate
that their populations started a general decline in numbers. This was
likely due to the population bottlenecks suffered during the warm
periods that occurred after they had 100,000 years to readapt to glacial
conditions. Polar bears diverged from Grizzlies within the last million
years during the period when the cold periods was getting longer. The
longer cold periods likely caused issues because the tundra and alpine
species had longer to adapt to that environment, and they would have
been more poorly equipped (in terms of genetics) to deal with the warm
period and habitat reduction.
My guess is that when the intervals were shorter that the temperate
latitude species would have been more generalist, and could more easily
shift between warm and cold periods. But when the cold intervals got
longer the cold adapted species started to take over, and due to
selection became better adapted to the glacial conditions. The problem
is that these ice age species suffered during the warm periods. This
would have especially applied to the large herbivores and carnivores
that needed large territories. The ancient DNA indicates that the mega
fauna populations were in decline for the last half million to million
years. My take is that they were having issues adapting to the longer
cold periods.
The challenge "global warming" causes life isn't change, but its
rapidity. The irony of "global warming" is that we humans have done
it to ourselves unnecessarily.
No more rapid than the last time.
That's not my understanding:
<https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-thawed-the-last-ice-age/> ****************************************
Roughly 20,000 years ago the great ice sheets that buried much of
Asia, Europe and North America stopped their creeping advance. Within
a few hundred years sea levels in some places had risen by as much as
10 meters
[...]
Humanity has now raised global CO2 levels by more than the rise from
roughly 180 to 260 ppm at the end of the last ice age, albeit in a few hundred years rather than over more than a few thousand years.
[...]
In fact, the amount of global warming already guaranteed by existing concentrations of CO2 in the atmosphere—392 ppm and still rising—will also play out over centuries, if not millennia. "The rise at the end
of the Ice Age and today is about the same [a rise of 100 ppm] and
we're going to be well above and beyond ******************************************
A lot of the mega fauna went extinct
during the current warm period thousands of years before humans could
have increased the warming. The last survivors of the extinct mega
fauna were not genetically healthy, and were not maintaining large
enough populations to get through the warm period. It is likely that
the last warm period when things got even warmer than they are now left
the survivors genetically depleted so even though their populations came
back during the long cold interval, they weren't genetically healthy
enough to survive this warm interval.
Natural selection is short sighted. It could not predict the change to
warmer periods during the time that the species were being adapted to
glacial conditions.
If these longer cold periods persist you would expect that eventually
the species that survived would be adapted to the long intervals, but it
would take a long time to sort out the ones that could adapt when they
have to compete against the species that adapt the fastest and best to
the cold period, and their only advantage is during the warm period.
Their populations would not be favored during the cold even as they
were adapting to it. They would have to be mediocre in both
environments, but even being mediocre during the warm period would help
them do better than the cold adapted species. It isn't as easy as
species adapting to winter and summer because the change doesn't come
every year or generation, but every hundred thousand years.
Ron Okimoto
IIUC your point above is that the back-and-forth of interglacial
periods is too rapid for arctic species to fully adapt. I acknowledge evolution has no foresight. I acknowledge that certain haplotypes and
even species disappeared during these periods. That didn't prevent
related genera from other regions to occupy expanding niches. So yes,
polar bears go extinct, but other bear species increase their range.
Or narwhal go extinct, but orca increase their range.
However, what is happening now is the next mass extinction is already underway. Not only are the oceans getting warmer, creating large
anoxic regions, but they are also getting more acidic, killing shelled organisms and plankton, the basis of ocean foodchains. Few species
can overcome this and massive pollution and overharvesting all at the
same time. Life will continue, and perhaps humans, but almost
certainly not our civilization.
On 3/6/2023 6:41 AM, jillery wrote:
On Sun, 5 Mar 2023 08:29:54 -0600, RonO <[email protected]> wrote:
On 3/5/2023 1:21 AM, jillery wrote:
On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 21:09:58 -0600, RonO <[email protected]> wrote:
The last episode of the documentary series Frozen Planet II was just on >>>>> TV. They had how bad global warming is to the Arctic environment and >>>>> wild life. The ending claimed that we could change this and limit
global warming to an additional 1.5 degrees.
Species like penguins and polar bears are having a hard time, but it >>>>> should have been noted that things were worse during the last warm
period between glaciation. 130,000 years ago temperatures got warmer >>>>> than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels >>>>> that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian Ocean >>>>> and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood and
terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
It seems that what we should be working on is determining how the ice >>>>> age species made it through that last environmental catastrophe that has >>>>> been occurring around every hundred thousand years for the last million >>>>> years. The intervals between warm periods have been getting longer in >>>>> the last half million years, and life on earth hasn't been able to adapt >>>>> to that very effectively. Most of the ice age megafauna likely nearly >>>>> went extinct the last warm period, and even though their populations >>>>> came back, the populations were likely not healthy enough to survive >>>>> this warm period. No wolly rhino, mastodons, and mammoths exist
anywhere. The giant bears and saber toothed cats that fed on them
didn't make it. Species like polar bears and penguins may not survive >>>>> this warm period, and could go the way of the mammoth.
We likely need to figure out how these species survived the last warm >>>>> period that became worse than current conditions. More ice melted last >>>>> time and sea levels were as high as they are predicting for this warm >>>>> period. In order to maintain viable populations we need to make those >>>>> regions that allowed the survival of ice age species available to these >>>>> animals. More of their habitat was lost last warm period, but the
existing arctic species found somewhere to survive. We need to figure >>>>> out what those survival places were and make them available to the
species that need them.
For the penguin example, it is obvious that the last warm period the >>>>> Adele penguins had to find some place else to nest. Finding where that >>>>> was and relocating animals is likely the best way to get a large enough >>>>> population through this warm period.
The issue with man made global warming is the prediction that was put >>>>> out a few years ago that we might skip the next glacial period and the >>>>> warm period might last a hundred thousand years longer than usual.
The warm period is not the normal environment for temperate latitudes. >>>>> For the last million years most of the time the temperate latitudes have >>>>> had an arctic alpine environment. Arctic species are adapted to what >>>>> usually exists. The current environment has them limited to the icy >>>>> regions of the world, and their environment has been rollercoasting for >>>>> the last couple million years.
Ron Okimoto
Looking at the last million years is geologically and biologically
short-sighted. The climate on the Earth has been changing since Earth >>>> was created 4.5bya. Life on Earth has been adapting to it since life
began at least 3.5bya.
Natural selection is short sighted. The planet started to cool around 3 >>> million years ago, and the current arctic species have been adapting to
that ecology since. Not only that, but the arctic species have had to
deal with long cold periods when life would have been prosperous for
them and shorter warmer periods when their habitat would have been
greatly reduced.
Initially the cycles were shorter (40,000 years or less) until around a
million years ago when the cycles got longer. For the last half million >>> years the cycles have been over 100,000 years long, and the fossil
genetics that we get from the ancient DNA of ice age mega fauna indicate >>> that their populations started a general decline in numbers. This was
likely due to the population bottlenecks suffered during the warm
periods that occurred after they had 100,000 years to readapt to glacial >>> conditions. Polar bears diverged from Grizzlies within the last million >>> years during the period when the cold periods was getting longer. The
longer cold periods likely caused issues because the tundra and alpine
species had longer to adapt to that environment, and they would have
been more poorly equipped (in terms of genetics) to deal with the warm
period and habitat reduction.
My guess is that when the intervals were shorter that the temperate
latitude species would have been more generalist, and could more easily
shift between warm and cold periods. But when the cold intervals got
longer the cold adapted species started to take over, and due to
selection became better adapted to the glacial conditions. The problem
is that these ice age species suffered during the warm periods. This
would have especially applied to the large herbivores and carnivores
that needed large territories. The ancient DNA indicates that the mega
fauna populations were in decline for the last half million to million
years. My take is that they were having issues adapting to the longer
cold periods.
The challenge "global warming" causes life isn't change, but its
rapidity. The irony of "global warming" is that we humans have done
it to ourselves unnecessarily.
No more rapid than the last time.
That's not my understanding:
<https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-thawed-the-last-ice-age/> >> ****************************************
Roughly 20,000 years ago the great ice sheets that buried much of
Asia, Europe and North America stopped their creeping advance. Within
a few hundred years sea levels in some places had risen by as much as
10 meters
[...]
Humanity has now raised global CO2 levels by more than the rise from
roughly 180 to 260 ppm at the end of the last ice age, albeit in a few
hundred years rather than over more than a few thousand years.
[...]
In fact, the amount of global warming already guaranteed by existing
concentrations of CO2 in the atmosphere—392 ppm and still rising—will
also play out over centuries, if not millennia. "The rise at the end
of the Ice Age and today is about the same [a rise of 100 ppm] and
we're going to be well above and beyond
******************************************
The glacial maximum was 25,000 years ago, and the temperature was rising >before that.
The ice kept growing even after the lowest temperatures
had been reached and the earth started to warm again. We already could
have started the usual decline in temperatures, but the industrial >revolution happened, and CO2 levels increased dramatically.
Temperatures had plateaued lower than they had gotten the previous ice
age warm interval, and this warm interval may have not been as warm as
the last one. At least two of the last 5 warm intervals reached higher >temperatures than the current interval. As a harbinger of what likely >should be happening we had the little ice age of the 14th century that >caused famine and cold weather. Sometimes the temperature fluctuates
for thousands of years at a fairly high temp, but usually there is a
rise and then fall over around a 30,000 year period. The cycles have
been getting longer, so we might have had an extended warm period.
In terms of the little ice age, the claim is that the little ice age
didn't break until the mid 19th century, and it might be that the
industrial revolution kept us from experiencing further declines in >temperature. As I noted there have been predictions that man made
global warming may cause a skip and we may not have the expected 100,000 >year cold glacial period. It might be that if it wasn't for human
global warming that we could have continued to see little ice ages as
the earth cooled and it would be temperate latitude humans that would be >shifting south as polar bears started to bask and hunt further south
with the growing ice sheets. The sea ice was so bad during the little
ice age that ships could not navigate to Greenland and that colony died out.
A lot of the mega fauna went extinct
during the current warm period thousands of years before humans could
have increased the warming. The last survivors of the extinct mega
fauna were not genetically healthy, and were not maintaining large
enough populations to get through the warm period. It is likely that
the last warm period when things got even warmer than they are now left
the survivors genetically depleted so even though their populations came >>> back during the long cold interval, they weren't genetically healthy
enough to survive this warm interval.
Natural selection is short sighted. It could not predict the change to
warmer periods during the time that the species were being adapted to
glacial conditions.
If these longer cold periods persist you would expect that eventually
the species that survived would be adapted to the long intervals, but it >>> would take a long time to sort out the ones that could adapt when they
have to compete against the species that adapt the fastest and best to
the cold period, and their only advantage is during the warm period.
Their populations would not be favored during the cold even as they
were adapting to it. They would have to be mediocre in both
environments, but even being mediocre during the warm period would help
them do better than the cold adapted species. It isn't as easy as
species adapting to winter and summer because the change doesn't come
every year or generation, but every hundred thousand years.
Ron Okimoto
IIUC your point above is that the back-and-forth of interglacial
periods is too rapid for arctic species to fully adapt. I acknowledge
evolution has no foresight. I acknowledge that certain haplotypes and
even species disappeared during these periods. That didn't prevent
related genera from other regions to occupy expanding niches. So yes,
polar bears go extinct, but other bear species increase their range.
Or narwhal go extinct, but orca increase their range.
However, what is happening now is the next mass extinction is already
underway. Not only are the oceans getting warmer, creating large
anoxic regions, but they are also getting more acidic, killing shelled
organisms and plankton, the basis of ocean foodchains. Few species
can overcome this and massive pollution and overharvesting all at the
same time. Life will continue, and perhaps humans, but almost
certainly not our civilization.
More ice melted and the temperature was higher last warm period.
The
issue is habitat. The extant species found places to survive. Humans
have already decimated their populations. Many arctic species are just >making a comeback. Things were worse for them last time, but there were >more of them to start with, and they occupied more territory than humans >have pushed them into at this time. The global warming guys want to
limit global warming to another 1.5 degrees, but the species are
suffering now. We really do need to figure out what habitats they
survived in last time and make sure that these habitats are made
available to the survivors. Without a place to live through the mess
they aren't going to make it.
This could mean creating new habitat for existing species. Important >species such as salmon likely established runs further north as the ice >melted, and we might want to help that along. They would provide the
polar bears with another source of food just when then need it. We do
need to figure out what happened last time. The extant species found
some place to survive.
Ron Okimoto
The last episode of the documentary series Frozen Planet II was just on
TV. They had how bad global warming is to the Arctic environment and
wild life. The ending claimed that we could change this and limit
global warming to an additional 1.5 degrees.
Species like penguins and polar bears are having a hard time, but it
should have been noted that things were worse during the last warm
period between glaciation.
130,000 years ago temperatures got warmer
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels
that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian Ocean
and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood and
terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
It seems that what we should be working on is determining how the ice
age species made it through that last environmental catastrophe that has been occurring around every hundred thousand years for the last million years. The intervals between warm periods have been getting longer in
the last half million years, and life on earth hasn't been able to adapt
to that very effectively. Most of the ice age megafauna likely nearly
went extinct the last warm period,
and even though their populations
came back, the populations were likely not healthy enough to survive
this warm period.
No wolly rhino, mastodons, and mammoths exist
anywhere.
The giant bears and saber toothed cats that fed on them
didn't make it.
Species like polar bears and penguins may not survive
this warm period, and could go the way of the mammoth.
We likely need to figure out how these species survived the last warm
period that became worse than current conditions. More ice melted last
time and sea levels were as high as they are predicting for this warm period. In order to maintain viable populations we need to make those regions that allowed the survival of ice age species available to these animals. More of their habitat was lost last warm period, but the
existing arctic species found somewhere to survive. We need to figure
out what those survival places were and make them available to the
species that need them.
For the penguin example, it is obvious that the last warm period the
Adele penguins had to find some place else to nest.
Finding where that
was and relocating animals is likely the best way to get a large enough population through this warm period.
The issue with man made global warming is the prediction that was put
out a few years ago that we might skip the next glacial period and the
warm period might last a hundred thousand years longer than usual.
The warm period is not the normal environment for temperate latitudes.
For the last million years most of the time the temperate latitudes have
had an arctic alpine environment. Arctic species are adapted to what
usually exists. The current environment has them limited to the icy
regions of the world, and their environment has been rollercoasting for
the last couple million years.
Ron Okimoto
The last episode of the documentary series Frozen Planet II was just on
TV. They had how bad global warming is to the Arctic environment and
wild life. The ending claimed that we could change this and limit
global warming to an additional 1.5 degrees.
Species like penguins and polar bears are having a hard time, but it
should have been noted that things were worse during the last warm
period between glaciation. 130,000 years ago temperatures got warmer
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels
that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian Ocean
and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood and
terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
It seems that what we should be working on is determining how the ice
age species made it through that last environmental catastrophe that has
been occurring around every hundred thousand years for the last million years. The intervals between warm periods have been getting longer in
the last half million years, and life on earth hasn't been able to adapt
to that very effectively. Most of the ice age megafauna likely nearly
went extinct the last warm period, and even though their populations
came back, the populations were likely not healthy enough to survive
this warm period. No wolly rhino, mastodons, and mammoths exist
anywhere. The giant bears and saber toothed cats that fed on them
didn't make it. Species like polar bears and penguins may not survive
this warm period, and could go the way of the mammoth.
We likely need to figure out how these species survived the last warm
period that became worse than current conditions. More ice melted last
time and sea levels were as high as they are predicting for this warm period. In order to maintain viable populations we need to make those regions that allowed the survival of ice age species available to these animals. More of their habitat was lost last warm period, but the
existing arctic species found somewhere to survive. We need to figure
out what those survival places were and make them available to the
species that need them.
For the penguin example, it is obvious that the last warm period the
Adele penguins had to find some place else to nest. Finding where that
was and relocating animals is likely the best way to get a large enough population through this warm period.
The issue with man made global warming is the prediction that was put
out a few years ago that we might skip the next glacial period and the
warm period might last a hundred thousand years longer than usual.
The warm period is not the normal environment for temperate latitudes.
For the last million years most of the time the temperate latitudes have
had an arctic alpine environment. Arctic species are adapted to what usually exists. The current environment has them limited to the icy
regions of the world, and their environment has been rollercoasting for
the last couple million years.
Ron Okimoto
On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 21:09:58 -0600, RonO <[email protected]> wrote:
The last episode of the documentary series Frozen Planet II was just on >TV. They had how bad global warming is to the Arctic environment and
wild life. The ending claimed that we could change this and limit
global warming to an additional 1.5 degrees.
Species like penguins and polar bears are having a hard time, but it >should have been noted that things were worse during the last warm
period between glaciation. 130,000 years ago temperatures got warmer
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels
that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian Ocean
and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood and >terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
It seems that what we should be working on is determining how the ice
age species made it through that last environmental catastrophe that has >been occurring around every hundred thousand years for the last million >years. The intervals between warm periods have been getting longer in
the last half million years, and life on earth hasn't been able to adapt >to that very effectively. Most of the ice age megafauna likely nearly
went extinct the last warm period, and even though their populations
came back, the populations were likely not healthy enough to survive
this warm period. No wolly rhino, mastodons, and mammoths exist
anywhere. The giant bears and saber toothed cats that fed on them
didn't make it. Species like polar bears and penguins may not survive
this warm period, and could go the way of the mammoth.
We likely need to figure out how these species survived the last warm >period that became worse than current conditions. More ice melted last >time and sea levels were as high as they are predicting for this warm >period. In order to maintain viable populations we need to make those >regions that allowed the survival of ice age species available to these >animals. More of their habitat was lost last warm period, but the
existing arctic species found somewhere to survive. We need to figure
out what those survival places were and make them available to the
species that need them.
For the penguin example, it is obvious that the last warm period the
Adele penguins had to find some place else to nest. Finding where that
was and relocating animals is likely the best way to get a large enough >population through this warm period.
The issue with man made global warming is the prediction that was put
out a few years ago that we might skip the next glacial period and the >warm period might last a hundred thousand years longer than usual.
The warm period is not the normal environment for temperate latitudes.
For the last million years most of the time the temperate latitudes have >had an arctic alpine environment. Arctic species are adapted to what >usually exists. The current environment has them limited to the icy >regions of the world, and their environment has been rollercoasting for >the last couple million years.
Ron OkimotoLooking at the last million years is geologically and biologically short-sighted. The climate on the Earth has been changing since Earth
was created 4.5bya.
Life on Earth has been adapting to it since life
began at least 3.5bya.
The challenge "global warming" causes life isn't change, but its
rapidity.
The irony of "global warming" is that we humans have done
it to ourselves unnecessarily.
I return after a bit over two months of break
On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 19:03:51 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
I return after a bit over two months of break
Back in December, I challenged you to back up your assertion that I am
an apostate Catholic.
On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 6:10:23?AM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:
On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 19:03:51 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
I return after a bit over two months of break
Back in December, I challenged you to back up your assertion that I am
an apostate Catholic.
I did not assert that. Re-read what I actually wrote, and see if you
can spot the difference.
By the way, I wonder whether you approve of Ron O's response to me on this thread.
On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 19:19:30 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 6:10:23?AM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:
On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 19:03:51 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
I return after a bit over two months of break
Back in December, I challenged you to back up your assertion that I am
an apostate Catholic.
I did not assert that. Re-read what I actually wrote, and see if youStandard Nyikos Tactic #1 - double down by telling another lie denying
can spot the difference.
the first one:
=====================================
Message-ID: [email protected]
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/WATJ1V2lWcI/m/vSTo4FsJBAAJ
Glenn to me:
"Everything you say just adds supports to the fact that you are an
atheist. It is why your lame crap is tolerated here."
Your response to that:
"Nah, being an apostate Catholic is adequate for that."
------------------------------------------------------------------
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/m3D7t5Ija0A/m/8PWtuFFCBQAJ
Message-ID: [email protected]
Me to you:
"Identify where I have renounced my Catholic faith to become an
apostate (waiting since 16 Dec)"
Your response:
"I don't do things on your timetable. I'm saving this one for later."
===========================================
By the way, I wonder whether you approve of Ron O's response to me on this thread.Standard Nyikos Tactic #2 - try to divert the discussion to something
else.
[匽
On 3/4/2023 9:09 PM, RonO wrote:
The last episode of the documentary series Frozen Planet II was just on TV. They had how bad global warming is to the Arctic environment and
wild life. The ending claimed that we could change this and limit
global warming to an additional 1.5 degrees.
Species like penguins and polar bears are having a hard time, but it should have been noted that things were worse during the last warm
period between glaciation. 130,000 years ago temperatures got warmer
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels
that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian Ocean and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood and terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
It seems that what we should be working on is determining how the ice
age species made it through that last environmental catastrophe that has been occurring around every hundred thousand years for the last million years. The intervals between warm periods have been getting longer in
the last half million years, and life on earth hasn't been able to adapt to that very effectively. Most of the ice age megafauna likely nearly went extinct the last warm period,
and even though their populations
came back, the populations were likely not healthy enough to survive
this warm period. No wolly rhino, mastodons, and mammoths exist
anywhere. The giant bears and saber toothed cats that fed on them
didn't make it. Species like polar bears and penguins may not survive this warm period, and could go the way of the mammoth.
We likely need to figure out how these species survived the last warm period that became worse than current conditions. More ice melted last time and sea levels were as high as they are predicting for this warm period. In order to maintain viable populations we need to make those regions that allowed the survival of ice age species available to these animals. More of their habitat was lost last warm period, but the existing arctic species found somewhere to survive. We need to figure
out what those survival places were and make them available to the
species that need them.
For the penguin example, it is obvious that the last warm period the
Adele penguins had to find some place else to nest.
Finding where that was and relocating animals is likely the best way to get a large enough
population through this warm period.
The issue with man made global warming is the prediction that was put
out a few years ago that we might skip the next glacial period and the warm period might last a hundred thousand years longer than usual.
The warm period is not the normal environment for temperate latitudes.
For the last million years most of the time the temperate latitudes have had an arctic alpine environment. Arctic species are adapted to what usually exists. The current environment has them limited to the icy regions of the world, and their environment has been rollercoasting for the last couple million years.
Ron Okimoto
I don't want to interact with a lying asshole like Nyikos,
but I will put up the supporting evidence for what I had claimed during discussions
on this topic, in order to demonstrate what an asshole Nyikos is. Why wouldn't he look this stuff up for himself instead of being the asshole
that he is and making the claims that he made?
Evidence that there were at least two warm periods within the last half million years where more ice melted than has melted at this time in the current warm period.
https://academic.oup.com/zoolinnean/article/186/3/666/5487031?login=false
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20 meters higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and a second
one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure 3.
I would note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to occur if we do
not curb global warming.
The wiki for ice ages has a graph on temperature and amount of ice. It
shows that it got warmer than the current warm period twice in the last 500,000 years. More ice melted 136,000 years ago, and the rail paper
claims that sea level was 20 meters higher than today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32795436/
This paper is open access and notes the population decline of wooly
rhinos over the past 1 million years after the cold periods got longer
than 40,000 years. The same trend was noted in the genomes of wooly mammoths. It wasn't just the ice age arctic and alpine species that
were affected by the extension of the cold period. Temperate species
such as peacocks, junglefowl and tigers show the same decline in
effective population size over this time period. So the extended cold periods were hard on the temperate species (probably because their
habitat was restricted for a longer period of time. The arctic species population decline was likely due to having a longer time to adapt to
the arctic conditions only to have that habitat greatly reduced for a
short, but devestating period of time. The rhinos, mastadon and mammoth didn't make it through this warm period, but their decline started a
million years ago.
Popular science article on the rhino genome. https://phys.org/news/2020-08-ancient-genomes-woolly-rhinos-extinct.html
Ron Okimoto
Glenn told Ron O, "You're insane" from time to time, and Ron O's behavior in the post to which I am replying lends credence to that assertion.
For a dozen years, Ron O made a huge issue of people "running away"
from things he had posted, as though it were an act of extreme cowardice
to make a deletion (whether marked or unmarked) of some assertion or other of his.
And now, Ron O has outdone all such "runnings away." He does not quote or even
identify a single thing I wrote in reply to his OP. He acts as though he were refuting
me, but he winds up undermining more things that he had written in the OP than
what I had written in reply.
On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 8:40:22 PM UTC-5, RonO wrote:
On 3/4/2023 9:09 PM, RonO wrote:
The last episode of the documentary series Frozen Planet II was just on TV. They had how bad global warming is to the Arctic environment and wild life. The ending claimed that we could change this and limit
global warming to an additional 1.5 degrees.
Species like penguins and polar bears are having a hard time, but it should have been noted that things were worse during the last warm period between glaciation. 130,000 years ago temperatures got warmer than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian Ocean and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood and terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
Ron O made no attempt to support this, either in the OP or in the part he added this time around. He didn't even name a singleIt seems that what we should be working on is determining how the ice age species made it through that last environmental catastrophe that has been occurring around every hundred thousand years for the last million years. The intervals between warm periods have been getting longer in the last half million years, and life on earth hasn't been able to adapt to that very effectively. Most of the ice age megafauna likely nearly went extinct the last warm period,
species of megafauna that supposedly "nearly went extinct"
in the warm period of ca. 130,000 years ago.
And so, he has "run away" from my response to this supposition. Here is the challenge I gave:
"Where do you get this idea? The megafauna of the tropics and subtropics and places with
a temperate climate were doing just fine. For instance, Deinotherium, a proboscidean
with no tusks in the upper jaw and enigmatic tusks curving downwards from the lower jaw,
grew to record sizes far outstripping those of the modern elephant;
and there were mastodons more massive, and mammoths bigger than the woolly mammoth.
"Also, many different orders had their giants: giant ground sloths;
camels as tall as giraffes and others much heavier than modern camels; Diprotodon, a marsupial estimated at up to 2,000 kilos, and kangaroos 9-10 feet tall;
the elephant bird of Madagascar, the heaviest bird that ever lived as far as we know."
--https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/7z8nZ0LbAgAJ
Re: Frozen Planet II . . . Mar 7, 2023, 10:05:21 PM
There were several shortcomings of the rest of this paragraph, as
can be seen from the post I linked above. Ron O did not dare to reply directly to that post.
and even though their populations
came back, the populations were likely not healthy enough to survive this warm period. No wolly rhino, mastodons, and mammoths exist anywhere. The giant bears and saber toothed cats that fed on them
didn't make it. Species like polar bears and penguins may not survive this warm period, and could go the way of the mammoth.
We likely need to figure out how these species survived the last warm period that became worse than current conditions. More ice melted last time and sea levels were as high as they are predicting for this warm period. In order to maintain viable populations we need to make those regions that allowed the survival of ice age species available to these animals. More of their habitat was lost last warm period, but the existing arctic species found somewhere to survive. We need to figure out what those survival places were and make them available to the species that need them.
Ron O hasn't tried to show this is true, let alone obvious, and so my refutation of this claim stands:For the penguin example, it is obvious that the last warm period the Adele penguins had to find some place else to nest.
"Not obvious at all, because there is nothing about ice and snow
that is necessary [for them to breed. There might possibly have been some difficulty in finding sea animals to feed on, but I doubt it. Like I wrote above, the Antarctic wasn't drastically affected by the ups and downs
of the Northern Hemisphere."
--*ibid*
Finding where that was and relocating animals is likely the best way to get a large enough
population through this warm period.
The issue with man made global warming is the prediction that was put out a few years ago that we might skip the next glacial period and the warm period might last a hundred thousand years longer than usual.
Ron O's "normal" is the "new normal" that has only been in existence for less than two million years.The warm period is not the normal environment for temperate latitudes.
Before that, it WAS the normal environment except when it was a lot warmer than in these warm periods, including this one. See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geologic_temperature_record
For the last million years most of the time the temperate latitudes have had an arctic alpine environment. Arctic species are adapted to what usually exists. The current environment has them limited to the icy regions of the world, and their environment has been rollercoasting for the last couple million years.
Ron Okimoto
I don't want to interact with a lying asshole like Nyikos,This unsupported insult of me is just an excuse for his utter, complete running away from anything I wrote.
but I will put up the supporting evidence for what I had claimed during discussionsThis rant by Ron O is an example of a common dirty debating tactic that I call
on this topic, in order to demonstrate what an asshole Nyikos is. Why wouldn't he look this stuff up for himself instead of being the asshole that he is and making the claims that he made?
The Phantom Error Correction Scam. This consists of lecturing as though one were correcting errors of the target person, yet without identifying a single error.
Often, as here, the rest of the lecture is mostly about brand new topics that hadn't
been mentioned on the thread before.
Evidence that there were at least two warm periods within the last half million years where more ice melted than has melted at this time in the current warm period.
https://academic.oup.com/zoolinnean/article/186/3/666/5487031?login=falseThe above Wiki reference provides evidence of the same things and much more. I talked about it to jillery:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/FhZcKWMqAwAJ
Re: Frozen Planet II . . . Mar 8, 2023, 10:15:23 PM
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20 meters higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and a second one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure 3.Rails aren't megafauna; so much for Ron O's speculation above.
CONCLUDED tomorrow. Duty calls.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
PS I've left in the rest of what Ron O wrote, just so he can't hypocritically accuse me of "running away" from it.
In fact, I'll have some things to say about it tomorrow.
I would note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to occur if we do
not curb global warming.
The wiki for ice ages has a graph on temperature and amount of ice. It shows that it got warmer than the current warm period twice in the last 500,000 years. More ice melted 136,000 years ago, and the rail paper claims that sea level was 20 meters higher than today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32795436/
This paper is open access and notes the population decline of wooly
rhinos over the past 1 million years after the cold periods got longer than 40,000 years. The same trend was noted in the genomes of wooly mammoths. It wasn't just the ice age arctic and alpine species that
were affected by the extension of the cold period. Temperate species
such as peacocks, junglefowl and tigers show the same decline in
effective population size over this time period. So the extended cold periods were hard on the temperate species (probably because their
habitat was restricted for a longer period of time. The arctic species population decline was likely due to having a longer time to adapt to
the arctic conditions only to have that habitat greatly reduced for a short, but devestating period of time. The rhinos, mastadon and mammoth didn't make it through this warm period, but their decline started a million years ago.
Popular science article on the rhino genome. https://phys.org/news/2020-08-ancient-genomes-woolly-rhinos-extinct.html
Ron Okimoto
On 3/4/2023 9:09 PM, RonO wrote:[...]
[...]130,000 years ago temperatures got warmer
than they are now and more ice melted.
Most of the ice age megafauna likely nearly
went extinct the last warm period,
and even though their populations came back,
the populations were likely not healthy enough to survive this warm period.
https://academic.oup.com/zoolinnean/article/186/3/666/5487031?login=false
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20 meters higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and a second
one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure 3. I would
note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to occur if we do
not curb global warming.
The wiki for ice ages has a graph on temperature and amount of ice. It
shows that it got warmer than the current warm period twice in the last 500,000 years.
More ice melted 136,000 years ago, and the rail paper
claims that sea level was 20 meters higher than today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32795436/
This paper is open access and notes the population decline of wooly
rhinos over the past 1 million years after the cold periods got longer
than 40,000 years.
The same trend was noted in the genomes of wooly
mammoths.
It wasn't just the ice age arctic and alpine species that
were affected by the extension of the cold period. Temperate species
such as peacocks, junglefowl and tigers show the same decline in
effective population size over this time period.
So the extended cold
periods were hard on the temperate species (probably because their
habitat was restricted for a longer period of time. The arctic species population decline was likely due to having a longer time to adapt to
the arctic conditions
only to have that habitat greatly reduced for a
short, but devestating period of time. The rhinos, mastadon and mammoth didn't make it through this warm period, but their decline started a
million years ago.
Popular science article on the rhino genome. https://phys.org/news/2020-08-ancient-genomes-woolly-rhinos-extinct.html
the populations were likely not healthy enough to survive this warm period.
On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 12:00:25 AM UTC-8, Martin Harran wrote:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 19:19:30 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 6:10:23?AM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:
On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 19:03:51 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
I return after a bit over two months of break
Back in December, I challenged you to back up your assertion that I am >> an apostate Catholic.
I did not assert that. Re-read what I actually wrote, and see if youStandard Nyikos Tactic #1 - double down by telling another lie denying
can spot the difference.
the first one:
=====================================
Message-ID: [email protected]
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/WATJ1V2lWcI/m/vSTo4FsJBAAJ
Glenn to me:
"Everything you say just adds supports to the fact that you are an atheist. It is why your lame crap is tolerated here."
Your response to that:
"Nah, being an apostate Catholic is adequate for that."
------------------------------------------------------------------
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/m3D7t5Ija0A/m/8PWtuFFCBQAJ
Message-ID: [email protected]
Me to you:
"Identify where I have renounced my Catholic faith to become an
apostate (waiting since 16 Dec)"
Your response:
"I don't do things on your timetable. I'm saving this one for later."
===========================================
By the way, I wonder whether you approve of Ron O's response to me on this thread.Standard Nyikos Tactic #2 - try to divert the discussion to something else.
[匽He'll never get to your issue here, because he has absolutely no knowledge of the
state of your faith or lack thereof. He's aware of that; he's not stupid, but he'll never
give you the satisfaction of acknowledging that.
As for two regulars who posted off-topic attacks while completely ignoring on-topic discussion:
on-topic science, even when mixed with off-topic comments, takes priority. But they too will get their turn.
On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 2:10:25?PM UTC-7, erik simpson wrote:
On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 12:00:25?AM UTC-8, Martin Harran wrote:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 19:19:30 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"He'll never get to your issue here, because he has absolutely no knowledge of the
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 6:10:23?AM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:Standard Nyikos Tactic #1 - double down by telling another lie denying
On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 19:03:51 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
I return after a bit over two months of break
Back in December, I challenged you to back up your assertion that I am >> > >> an apostate Catholic.
I did not assert that. Re-read what I actually wrote, and see if you
can spot the difference.
the first one:
=====================================
Message-ID: [email protected]
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/WATJ1V2lWcI/m/vSTo4FsJBAAJ
Glenn to me:
"Everything you say just adds supports to the fact that you are an
atheist. It is why your lame crap is tolerated here."
Your response to that:
"Nah, being an apostate Catholic is adequate for that."
------------------------------------------------------------------
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/m3D7t5Ija0A/m/8PWtuFFCBQAJ
Message-ID: [email protected]
Me to you:
"Identify where I have renounced my Catholic faith to become an
apostate (waiting since 16 Dec)"
Your response:
"I don't do things on your timetable. I'm saving this one for later."
===========================================
By the way, I wonder whether you approve of Ron O's response to me on this thread.Standard Nyikos Tactic #2 - try to divert the discussion to something
else.
[?
state of your faith or lack thereof. He's aware of that; he's not stupid, but he'll never
give you the satisfaction of acknowledging that.
Tricky word, knowledge. Apparently you think your claim here to be absolute knowledge.
But yes, it is possible to judge people's faith based on what they say and how they behave.
Personal convictions about others are no more absolute than yours.
If you had any integrity, you would realize that Peter's claim is correct. He did not "assert" that Martin was an apostate Catholic, he claimed that being one here is adequate to have such lame crap as Martin spews tolerated here.
On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 18:54:52 -0700 (PDT), Glenn <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 2:10:25?PM UTC-7, erik simpson wrote:
On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 12:00:25?AM UTC-8, Martin Harran wrote:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 19:19:30 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"He'll never get to your issue here, because he has absolutely no knowledge of the
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 6:10:23?AM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:Standard Nyikos Tactic #1 - double down by telling another lie denying >> > the first one:
On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 19:03:51 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
I return after a bit over two months of break
Back in December, I challenged you to back up your assertion that I am
an apostate Catholic.
I did not assert that. Re-read what I actually wrote, and see if you >> > >can spot the difference.
=====================================
Message-ID: [email protected]
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/WATJ1V2lWcI/m/vSTo4FsJBAAJ >> >
Glenn to me:
"Everything you say just adds supports to the fact that you are an
atheist. It is why your lame crap is tolerated here."
Your response to that:
"Nah, being an apostate Catholic is adequate for that."
------------------------------------------------------------------
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/m3D7t5Ija0A/m/8PWtuFFCBQAJ >> >
Message-ID: [email protected]
Me to you:
"Identify where I have renounced my Catholic faith to become an
apostate (waiting since 16 Dec)"
Your response:
"I don't do things on your timetable. I'm saving this one for later." >> >
===========================================
By the way, I wonder whether you approve of Ron O's response to me on this thread.Standard Nyikos Tactic #2 - try to divert the discussion to something >> > else.
[?
state of your faith or lack thereof. He's aware of that; he's not stupid, but he'll never
give you the satisfaction of acknowledging that.
Tricky word, knowledge. Apparently you think your claim here to be absolute knowledge.
But yes, it is possible to judge people's faith based on what they say and how they behave.
Personal convictions about others are no more absolute than yours.
If you had any integrity, you would realize that Peter's claim is correct. He did not "assert" that Martin was
an apostate Catholic, he claimed that being one here is adequate to have such lame crap as Martin spews tolerated here.
Welcome back. I hope you and Peter enjoyed your holiday together.
On 3/4/2023 9:09 PM, RonO wrote:
The last episode of the documentary series Frozen Planet II was just
on TV. They had how bad global warming is to the Arctic environment
and wild life. The ending claimed that we could change this and limit
global warming to an additional 1.5 degrees.
Species like penguins and polar bears are having a hard time, but it
should have been noted that things were worse during the last warm
period between glaciation. 130,000 years ago temperatures got warmer
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels
that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian
Ocean and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood and
terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
It seems that what we should be working on is determining how the ice
age species made it through that last environmental catastrophe that
has been occurring around every hundred thousand years for the last
million years. The intervals between warm periods have been getting
longer in the last half million years, and life on earth hasn't been
able to adapt to that very effectively. Most of the ice age megafauna
likely nearly went extinct the last warm period, and even though their
populations came back, the populations were likely not healthy enough
to survive this warm period. No wolly rhino, mastodons, and mammoths
exist anywhere. The giant bears and saber toothed cats that fed on
them didn't make it. Species like polar bears and penguins may not
survive this warm period, and could go the way of the mammoth.
We likely need to figure out how these species survived the last warm
period that became worse than current conditions. More ice melted
last time and sea levels were as high as they are predicting for this
warm period. In order to maintain viable populations we need to make
those regions that allowed the survival of ice age species available
to these animals. More of their habitat was lost last warm period,
but the existing arctic species found somewhere to survive. We need
to figure out what those survival places were and make them available
to the species that need them.
For the penguin example, it is obvious that the last warm period the
Adele penguins had to find some place else to nest. Finding where
that was and relocating animals is likely the best way to get a large
enough population through this warm period.
The issue with man made global warming is the prediction that was put
out a few years ago that we might skip the next glacial period and the
warm period might last a hundred thousand years longer than usual.
The warm period is not the normal environment for temperate latitudes.
For the last million years most of the time the temperate latitudes
have had an arctic alpine environment. Arctic species are adapted to
what usually exists. The current environment has them limited to the
icy regions of the world, and their environment has been
rollercoasting for the last couple million years.
Ron Okimoto
I don't want to interact with a lying asshole like Nyikos, but I will
put up the supporting evidence for what I had claimed during discussions
on this topic, in order to demonstrate what an asshole Nyikos is. Why wouldn't he look this stuff up for himself instead of being the asshole
that he is and making the claims that he made?
Evidence that there were at least two warm periods within the last half million years where more ice melted than has melted at this time in the current warm period.
https://academic.oup.com/zoolinnean/article/186/3/666/5487031?login=false
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20 meters higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and a second
one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure 3. I would
note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to occur if we do
not curb global warming.
The wiki for ice ages has a graph on temperature and amount of ice. It shows that it got warmer than the current warm period twice in the last 500,000 years. More ice melted 136,000 years ago, and the rail paper
claims that sea level was 20 meters higher than today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32795436/
This paper is open access and notes the population decline of wooly
rhinos over the past 1 million years after the cold periods got longer
than 40,000 years. The same trend was noted in the genomes of wooly mammoths. It wasn't just the ice age arctic and alpine species that
were affected by the extension of the cold period. Temperate species
such as peacocks, junglefowl and tigers show the same decline in
effective population size over this time period. So the extended cold periods were hard on the temperate species (probably because their
habitat was restricted for a longer period of time. The arctic species population decline was likely due to having a longer time to adapt to
the arctic conditions only to have that habitat greatly reduced for a
short, but devestating period of time. The rhinos, mastadon and mammoth didn't make it through this warm period, but their decline started a
million years ago.
Popular science article on the rhino genome. https://phys.org/news/2020-08-ancient-genomes-woolly-rhinos-extinct.html
Ron Okimoto
On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 4:30:30?AM UTC-4, Martin Harran wrote:
On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 18:54:52 -0700 (PDT), Glenn <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 2:10:25?PM UTC-7, erik simpson wrote:
On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 12:00:25?AM UTC-8, Martin Harran wrote:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 19:19:30 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"He'll never get to your issue here, because he has absolutely no knowledge of the
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 6:10:23?AM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:Standard Nyikos Tactic #1 - double down by telling another lie denying >> >> > the first one:
On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 19:03:51 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
I return after a bit over two months of break
Back in December, I challenged you to back up your assertion that I am
an apostate Catholic.
I did not assert that. Re-read what I actually wrote, and see if you >> >> > >can spot the difference.
=====================================
Message-ID: [email protected]
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/WATJ1V2lWcI/m/vSTo4FsJBAAJ >> >> >
Glenn to me:
"Everything you say just adds supports to the fact that you are an
atheist. It is why your lame crap is tolerated here."
Your response to that:
"Nah, being an apostate Catholic is adequate for that."
------------------------------------------------------------------
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/m3D7t5Ija0A/m/8PWtuFFCBQAJ >> >> >
Message-ID: [email protected]
Me to you:
"Identify where I have renounced my Catholic faith to become an
apostate (waiting since 16 Dec)"
Your response:
"I don't do things on your timetable. I'm saving this one for later." >> >> >
===========================================
By the way, I wonder whether you approve of Ron O's response to me on this thread.Standard Nyikos Tactic #2 - try to divert the discussion to something >> >> > else.
[?
state of your faith or lack thereof. He's aware of that; he's not stupid, but he'll never
give you the satisfaction of acknowledging that.
Tricky word, knowledge. Apparently you think your claim here to be absolute knowledge.
But yes, it is possible to judge people's faith based on what they say and how they behave.
Personal convictions about others are no more absolute than yours.
If you had any integrity, you would realize that Peter's claim is correct. He did not "assert" that Martin was
an apostate Catholic, he claimed that being one here is adequate to have such lame crap as Martin spews tolerated here.
I note that Martin has nothing to say about this on-target analysis by Glenn.
Perhaps he is hoping for his shill Erik to come through with some riposte.
I'll address him briefly below.
Welcome back. I hope you and Peter enjoyed your holiday together.
I didn't even lurk to see what Glenn was doing. Has he been absent most of the time I was gone?
Did you and Erik get together while I was gone, or is this the first interaction he's had with you this year?
Peter Nyikos
PS It is only because Glenn entered this thread for the first time that I am posting here today at all.
It's sad that jillery, Ron O and I are the only people here who are showing any interest in
the solidly scientific and fascinating theme of the ice ages and their impact on biota,
including us hominini.
On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 2:10:25 PM UTC-7, erik simpson wrote:
On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 12:00:25 AM UTC-8, Martin Harran wrote:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 19:19:30 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 6:10:23?AM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:
On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 19:03:51 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
I return after a bit over two months of break
Back in December, I challenged you to back up your assertion that I am
an apostate Catholic.
I did not assert that. Re-read what I actually wrote, and see if you >can spot the difference.Standard Nyikos Tactic #1 - double down by telling another lie denying the first one:
=====================================
Message-ID: [email protected]
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/WATJ1V2lWcI/m/vSTo4FsJBAAJ
Glenn to me:
"Everything you say just adds supports to the fact that you are an atheist. It is why your lame crap is tolerated here."
Your response to that:
"Nah, being an apostate Catholic is adequate for that."
------------------------------------------------------------------
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/m3D7t5Ija0A/m/8PWtuFFCBQAJ
Message-ID: [email protected]
Me to you:
"Identify where I have renounced my Catholic faith to become an
apostate (waiting since 16 Dec)"
Your response:
"I don't do things on your timetable. I'm saving this one for later."
===========================================
By the way, I wonder whether you approve of Ron O's response to me on this thread.Standard Nyikos Tactic #2 - try to divert the discussion to something else.
[匽He'll never get to your issue here, because he has absolutely no knowledge of the
state of your faith or lack thereof. He's aware of that; he's not stupid, but he'll never
give you the satisfaction of acknowledging that
Tricky word, knowledge. Apparently you think your claim here to be absolute knowledge.
But yes, it is possible to judge people's faith based on what they say and how they behave.
Personal convictions about others are no more absolute than yours.
If you had any integrity, you would realize that Peter's claim is correct. He did not "assert" that Martin was an apostate Catholic, he claimed that being one here is adequate to have such lame crap as Martin spews tolerated here.
On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 9:55:29?PM UTC-4, Glenn wrote:
On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 2:10:25?PM UTC-7, erik simpson wrote:
On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 12:00:25?AM UTC-8, Martin Harran wrote:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 19:19:30 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"He'll never get to your issue here, because he has absolutely no knowledge of the
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 6:10:23?AM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:Standard Nyikos Tactic #1 - double down by telling another lie denying >> > > the first one:
On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 19:03:51 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
I return after a bit over two months of break
Back in December, I challenged you to back up your assertion that I am
an apostate Catholic.
I did not assert that. Re-read what I actually wrote, and see if you
can spot the difference.
=====================================
Message-ID: [email protected]
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/WATJ1V2lWcI/m/vSTo4FsJBAAJ
Glenn to me:
"Everything you say just adds supports to the fact that you are an
atheist. It is why your lame crap is tolerated here."
Your response to that:
"Nah, being an apostate Catholic is adequate for that."
------------------------------------------------------------------
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/m3D7t5Ija0A/m/8PWtuFFCBQAJ
Message-ID: [email protected]
Me to you:
"Identify where I have renounced my Catholic faith to become an
apostate (waiting since 16 Dec)"
Your response:
"I don't do things on your timetable. I'm saving this one for later."
===========================================
By the way, I wonder whether you approve of Ron O's response to me on this thread.Standard Nyikos Tactic #2 - try to divert the discussion to something
else.
[?
state of your faith or lack thereof. He's aware of that; he's not stupid, but he'll never
give you the satisfaction of acknowledging that
Tricky word, knowledge. Apparently you think your claim here to be absolute knowledge.
Erik doesn't even have knowledge of what the word "issue" means to Martin. Martin made it clear
in his reply to you already, and made it explicit in his latest reply to me, that the use that means by far the most to him
is "my issue is with [name of person]" and not what seems to be the usual usage of every normal person.
[Erik, for example, uses the word in the way that is normal for talk.origins, even though the issue
has nothing to do with the issues this thread is supposedly all about. But that too is normal for t.o.]
As a result, Martin made absolutely no attempt to counter your direct addressing of the actual issue,
in the usual sense, that Martin himself had raised:
But yes, it is possible to judge people's faith based on what they say and how they behave.
Personal convictions about others are no more absolute than yours.
If you had any integrity, you would realize that Peter's claim is correct. He did not "assert" that Martin was an apostate Catholic, he claimed that being one here is adequate to have such lame crap as Martin spews tolerated here.
Indeed, and it is not even necessary to be an apostate;
one need only behave in
a way that shows no respect for Jesus's admonition, "Do not bear false witness."
You can see that by the pejorative way Martin makes reckless accusations of one nonexistent
"Standard Nyikos Tactic" after another.
The majority of regulars who have issues [in Martin's favorite sense] with the two of us make
Martin feel right at home here, since Jesus's words mean almost nothing to them when they
talk to or about us. And the way Martin's behavior has changed over the years makes
it clear that feeling at home with them is something he values very highly -- more highly
than his integrity, for example.
Peter Nyikos
PS Your use of the word "fact" in the issue of which Erik wrote was unwise, and so I will
address the issue myself later this week.
On 3/8/2023 7:37 PM, RonO wrote:
On 3/4/2023 9:09 PM, RonO wrote:
The last episode of the documentary series Frozen Planet II was just
on TV. They had how bad global warming is to the Arctic environment
and wild life. The ending claimed that we could change this and limit
global warming to an additional 1.5 degrees.
Species like penguins and polar bears are having a hard time, but it
should have been noted that things were worse during the last warm
period between glaciation. 130,000 years ago temperatures got warmer
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels
that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian
Ocean and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood and
terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
It seems that what we should be working on is determining how the ice
age species made it through that last environmental catastrophe that
has been occurring around every hundred thousand years for the last
million years. The intervals between warm periods have been getting
longer in the last half million years, and life on earth hasn't been
able to adapt to that very effectively. Most of the ice age megafauna
likely nearly went extinct the last warm period,
The Nyikosian denial
that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong
about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted.
I will note that Nyikos does what he does just to harass me. He
obviously had no interest in this topic.
His own projection has him
doing it because he is a sadistic hate filled maniac that thinks that he
is righting some wrong done to him in the past.
Nyikos has always
brought it all onto himself. He has just added to the things that he
can't deal with in his failed attempts to lie about the past. No one
should have been subjected to the Nyikosian stupidity and harassment for over a decade. It should be apparent that Nyikos only posted the junk
to harass me because he wasn't interested in the topic enough to read
the cited paper in order to figure out what it actually supported.
This behavior should end. I do not stalk Nyikos around TO, and Nyikos
should not be allowed to continue to do what he does.
Nyikios' last attempt at harassment that should have been his last for
any sane individual.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ
This type of stupidity due to Nyikosian harassment should never take
place, but it just never ends.
I didn't expect Nyikos to address these two points because he was just
plain wrong about them, and his nit picking doesn't do much to change
that fact. I don't care about his issues with other posters. His first attempted response was pathetic, and he did try again. He did nothing
to counter the fact that there were at least two warm interglacial
periods before the current one where the temperatures were higher and
more ice melted.
His stupid flailing about being wrong and the fact
that he should have been able to figure it out for himself is just
stupid. He even acknowledges that the Wiki supports me, but he makes
some stupid comment about the inversion of the graph that simply doesn't matter at all.
His stupid comments about the rail extinction example is
just nonsense. I used that paper to demonstrate that during the last interglacial sea levels were 20 meters higher then they are today, and
that more ice melted in the last interglacial.
The Nyikosian denial
that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong
about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted.
For the rhino example the population decline did start more than a
million years ago, but so what? It still happened.
Two interglacials
ago the temperatures did not get as warm as the current period, and the species of rhino under discussion and some mammoths did come through
pretty well and they show an increase in effective population size
during the cold period before the last previous interglacial where temperatures got higher than they are today and more ice melted than has melted currently. If Nyikos had bothered to read the paper for
comprehension he would have understood that the authors admit that there
was a population crash during the last warm period that is not picked up
by their effective population size estimates. They cite a wooly mammoth paper as an example of the population crash that they expected to
happen. They try to explain the long tail where the effective
population size estimates stay high before bottoming out to a low long
after the population had recovered during the last cold period. Their explanation was that during the high temperature and low ice period
multiple small isolated populations survived the bottleneck, and when
they could expand out into more territory they interbred. They thought
that males moving between populations could accomplish a population
mixing that would reestablish genetic diversity that had been preserved
in the small isolated populations.
In our paper that noted the decline
in genetic diversity of domestic chickens we stated the obvious
conclusion that we could recreate a population with nearly all of the genetic diversity domestic chickens started with by crossing the extant domestic breeds together. Each population had lost diversity over time
even as their total population increased because of how they were
propagated as small flocks in isolated villages, but each population had retained a different bit of the original genetic variation, and if
combined would restore a lot of the genetic variation that domestic
chickens started with.
All this means is that the paper acknowledged that there had been a
severe population crash during the last interglacial that was not picked
up by their method of calculating effective population size. They also
admit that they can't explain why their estimate of effective population size continues to decline for tens of thousands of years after the population had likely regained a stable size of around 100,000 breeding females. This decline is likely just a reflection of the population
crash that occurred before the population recovery because you can remix
the genetic variation, but as soon as you start crossing relatives you
are going to start loosing the genetic variation. For some reason their methods do not pick up the population crash that they expected to
happen, and instead shows a gradual decline even after the bottle neck
was resolved and a large stable population was being maintained for 10s
of thousands of years during this period of decline. They could not
explain the long decline in effective population size and the final low
that did not reflect the larger population size estimate obtained by
other means. For some reason the population bottleneck during the
previous interglacial took a long time to manifest in the rhino genome,
and did not show a recovery until after the glacial maximum when the population had actually recovered just a few thousand years after the
last warm period ended. They can't explain why the effective population estimate continued to decline and bottomed out over a period when other estimates indicated that a stable population of around 100,000 breeding females was reestablished soon after the last warm period and this population was relatively stable over a period of 100,000 years.
So the Nyikosian response is the usual Nyikosian null response. What
Nyikos was wrong about, he is still wrong about. Nit picking and
outright stupidity will not support the harassment.
This harassment should stop. The only reason to continue the harassment
is the insane behavior of Nyikos. For whatever reason he has never been
able to deal with the fact that he has been wrong about multiple things
like the present examples. All the craziness with the ID scam was due
to Nyikos' first mistake when he was wrong about the Discovery
Institute's involvement in the bait and switch that has been going on
for over 20 years. He blames me for his bumbling stupidity and
dishonesty since. It is just nuts because he wouldn't have as much of
his assoholic behavior to blame me for if he had never started his harassment due to simply being shown to be wrong about something.
I maintain as little interaction with the lying asshole as is possible,
and if the baseless harassment continues Nyikos should be banned from
TO. I had enjoyed a fairly long break from the assoholic behavior
during the recent Nykosian vacation, and that break should be extended indefinitely. If Nyikos can't control his assoholic behavior, he should
be stopped from doing it. Nyikos didn't care if he was wrong about the
junk, it was just harassment. He obviously didn't care enough about
being wrong to do what needed to be done in order to determine that he
was wrong, nor understand the paper that was used to counter his denial. Just use the link and go back to the last such episode to determine
how tragically sad Nyikos has always been.
The last such Nykosian episode: https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ
I will likely be referring to this post
to make my case in the future if
this harassment continues.
Ron Okimoto
On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 5:25:33 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:[...]
Nyikios' last attempt at harassment that should have been his last for
any sane individual.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ
This type of stupidity due to Nyikosian harassment should never take place, but it just never ends.
You don't even try to explain why it is supposed to be harassment.
Did anyone on that thread say it fit either description.
Now you suddenly switch to first person plural. What are you quoting from?
In our paper that noted the decline
in genetic diversity of domestic chickens we stated the obvious
conclusion that we could recreate a population with nearly all of the genetic diversity domestic chickens started with by crossing the extant domestic breeds together. Each population had lost diversity over time even as their total population increased because of how they were propagated as small flocks in isolated villages, but each population had retained a different bit of the original genetic variation, and if combined would restore a lot of the genetic variation that domestic chickens started with.
On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 5:25:33?PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/8/2023 7:37 PM, RonO wrote:
On 3/4/2023 9:09 PM, RonO wrote:
One good thing about Ron O's whole post is that he continues to
show interest in the topic of the OP. This is in stark contrast to the behavior
of Erik Simpson and especially the behavior of Martin Harran.
[And, in the interests of full disclosure: the behavior of Glenn.]
Your obsession with the word "harassment" borders on paranoia.
Your obsession with the word "harassment" borders on paranoia. But don't expect
jillery, or Harran, or Simpson to say that. They know better than to touch >that topic with a ten foot pole. [True, jillery did accuse me of "stalking" her about
a decade ago, but her mentor Paul Gans gently explained the difference to her, >and she hasn't accused me of that since.]
On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 19:19:30 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 6:10:23?AM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:
On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 19:03:51 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
I return after a bit over two months of break
Back in December, I challenged you to back up your assertion that I am
an apostate Catholic.
I did not assert that. Re-read what I actually wrote, and see if you
can spot the difference.
Standard Nyikos Tactic #1 - double down by telling another lie denying
the first one:
=====================================
Message-ID: [email protected]
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/WATJ1V2lWcI/m/vSTo4FsJBAAJ
Glenn to me:
"Everything you say just adds supports to the fact that you are an
atheist. It is why your lame crap is tolerated here."
Your response to that:
"Nah, being an apostate Catholic is adequate for that."
------------------------------------------------------------------
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/m3D7t5Ija0A/m/8PWtuFFCBQAJ
Message-ID: [email protected]
Me to you:
"Identify where I have renounced my Catholic faith to become an
apostate (waiting since 16 Dec)"
Your response:
"I don't do things on your timetable. I'm saving this one for later."
===========================================
I don't do things on your timetable. I'm saving this one for later.
By the way, I wonder whether you approve of Ron O's response to me on this thread.Standard Nyikos Tactic #2 - try to divert the discussion to something
else.
=====================================
Message-ID: [email protected]
Google groups masks these message-id's because the @ makes the software
treat them like email addresses. The ellipsis hides a lot this time: >-b316-cace6095398an
I promised Glenn that I would deal with this post by you this week, Martin, >and here I am.
On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:00:25?AM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 19:19:30 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 6:10:23?AM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:
On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 19:03:51 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
I return after a bit over two months of break
Back in December, I challenged you to back up your assertion that I am >> >> an apostate Catholic.
I did not assert that. Re-read what I actually wrote, and see if you
can spot the difference.
I see you were unable to spot the difference, but that's understandable: >There is a lot of context behind the simple-sounding exchange below
between me and Glenn.
Standard Nyikos Tactic #1 - double down by telling another lie denying
the first one:
This use of the word "Standard" is a polemical gimmick with no secure foundation.
And your accusation of a lie has no justification provided by you.
=====================================
Message-ID: [email protected]
Google groups masks these message-id's because the @ makes the software
treat them like email addresses. The ellipsis hides a lot this time: >-b316-cace6095398an
I write this for the benefit of those, like jillery, who much prefer >message-Id's for posts to urls for them. And for good reason: urls have a >notorious way of becoming obsolete, while I've never seen that claimed for message-ids.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/WATJ1V2lWcI/m/vSTo4FsJBAAJ
Glenn to me:
"Everything you say just adds supports to the fact that you are an
atheist. It is why your lame crap is tolerated here."
Glenn's history of accusing you of being an atheist goes a long way back,
and I have never been party to it, and I have told him so long before the
December post from which you are quoting.
Your response to that:
"Nah, being an apostate Catholic is adequate for that."
I glossed over Glenn's use of the word "fact," knowing that he was just expressing an
opinion of his which I don't share. He had earlier seen me express a *suspicion*
that you are an apostate Catholic.
Glenn has enough common sense to factor this background into
a realization that my intended message had to do with one of the
many reasons why lame crap is tolerated by the dominant clique in talk.origins,
just as being an atheist would be.
------------------------------------------------------------------
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/m3D7t5Ija0A/m/8PWtuFFCBQAJ
Date: December 19.
Message-ID: [email protected]
Me to you:
... at the end of a long barrage of challenges and questions, all of which I answered except the last:
"Identify where I have renounced my Catholic faith to become an
apostate (waiting since 16 Dec)"
Your response:
"I don't do things on your timetable. I'm saving this one for later."
===========================================
This was to remind you of your nasty habit of calling something a lie
if one does not justify it within a time frame of your (usually private) >choosing. Your reaction illustrated that well:
######################################
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/m3D7t5Ija0A/m/KjMvB-FgBQAJ
I don't do things on your timetable. I'm saving this one for later.
Bullshit, you have absolutely nothing to keep for later to justify you >calling me an apostate Catholic. That response is an epitomic
demosnstration that you are just a lying blowhard.
##########################################
Any blowhard could make a claim like your first sentence,
and thereby conclude a second sentence like yours
from the claim. That is a Begging The Question fallacy.
Compare: "You have absolutely nothing to keep for later to justify
that humans are descended from apes." Anyone saying this could
then proceed to the same second sentence you used, by the same logic.
Fact is, one does not have to publicly renounce one's Catholic affiliation >to be an apostate. In fact, the worst kind of apostasy is to privately >conclude that the Catholic religion is bullshit, while also asserting that >one is a Catholic. It was such people that the Spanish Inquisition targeted, >not people who admitted to a different religion (usually either Judaism or Islam) publicly.
And there is plenty of reason to think that you have no use for Jesus's >commandment against bearing false witness. And next week, I will go
through a lot of what you've posted to demonstrate your cavalier attitude >towards that commandment.
By the way, I wonder whether you approve of Ron O's response to me on this thread.Standard Nyikos Tactic #2 - try to divert the discussion to something
else.
You haven't a leg to stand on here. I had already told you to re-read what I wrote--
you did NOT quote it back then -- and you are ignoring the words "By the way".
Also, you snipped what I wrote after that, which clearly showed you had no need
to even acknowledge what you call a "diversion":
"Of course, telling us one way or the other about your opinion is completely optional."
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/tFp2bNLHAwAJ
I still recommend that you look at all three of Ron O's dealings with me on this thread;
not only will you learn a thing or two about the fascinating ups and downs in the
ice ages, but you may discover that you and Ron O have a lot in common.
Peter Nyikos
It's curious the following inspires no cries of "off-topic" or
"killfiles are your friend" or "burning irony" from the peanut
gallery.
On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 21:09:05 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]" ><[email protected]> wrote:--
I promised Glenn that I would deal with this post by you this week, Martin, >>and here I am.
On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:00:25?AM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 19:19:30 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 6:10:23?AM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:
On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 19:03:51 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
I return after a bit over two months of break
Back in December, I challenged you to back up your assertion that I am >>> >> an apostate Catholic.
I did not assert that. Re-read what I actually wrote, and see if you
can spot the difference.
I see you were unable to spot the difference, but that's understandable: >>There is a lot of context behind the simple-sounding exchange below >>between me and Glenn.
Standard Nyikos Tactic #1 - double down by telling another lie denying
the first one:
This use of the word "Standard" is a polemical gimmick with no secure foundation.
And your accusation of a lie has no justification provided by you.
=====================================
Message-ID: [email protected]
Google groups masks these message-id's because the @ makes the software >>treat them like email addresses. The ellipsis hides a lot this time: >>-b316-cace6095398an
I write this for the benefit of those, like jillery, who much prefer >>message-Id's for posts to urls for them. And for good reason: urls have a >>notorious way of becoming obsolete, while I've never seen that claimed for message-ids.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/WATJ1V2lWcI/m/vSTo4FsJBAAJ
Glenn to me:
"Everything you say just adds supports to the fact that you are an
atheist. It is why your lame crap is tolerated here."
Glenn's history of accusing you of being an atheist goes a long way back, >>and I have never been party to it, and I have told him so long before the
December post from which you are quoting.
Your response to that:
"Nah, being an apostate Catholic is adequate for that."
I glossed over Glenn's use of the word "fact," knowing that he was just expressing an
opinion of his which I don't share. He had earlier seen me express a *suspicion*
that you are an apostate Catholic.
Glenn has enough common sense to factor this background into
a realization that my intended message had to do with one of the
many reasons why lame crap is tolerated by the dominant clique in talk.origins,
just as being an atheist would be.
------------------------------------------------------------------
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/m3D7t5Ija0A/m/8PWtuFFCBQAJ
Date: December 19.
Message-ID: [email protected]
Me to you:
... at the end of a long barrage of challenges and questions, all of which I answered except the last:
"Identify where I have renounced my Catholic faith to become an
apostate (waiting since 16 Dec)"
Your response:
"I don't do things on your timetable. I'm saving this one for later."
===========================================
This was to remind you of your nasty habit of calling something a lie
if one does not justify it within a time frame of your (usually private) >>choosing. Your reaction illustrated that well:
######################################
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/m3D7t5Ija0A/m/KjMvB-FgBQAJ
I don't do things on your timetable. I'm saving this one for later.
Bullshit, you have absolutely nothing to keep for later to justify you >>calling me an apostate Catholic. That response is an epitomic >>demosnstration that you are just a lying blowhard.
##########################################
Any blowhard could make a claim like your first sentence,
and thereby conclude a second sentence like yours
from the claim. That is a Begging The Question fallacy.
Compare: "You have absolutely nothing to keep for later to justify
that humans are descended from apes." Anyone saying this could
then proceed to the same second sentence you used, by the same logic.
Fact is, one does not have to publicly renounce one's Catholic affiliation >>to be an apostate. In fact, the worst kind of apostasy is to privately >>conclude that the Catholic religion is bullshit, while also asserting that >>one is a Catholic. It was such people that the Spanish Inquisition targeted, >>not people who admitted to a different religion (usually either Judaism or Islam) publicly.
And there is plenty of reason to think that you have no use for Jesus's >>commandment against bearing false witness. And next week, I will go
through a lot of what you've posted to demonstrate your cavalier attitude >>towards that commandment.
By the way, I wonder whether you approve of Ron O's response to me on this thread.Standard Nyikos Tactic #2 - try to divert the discussion to something
else.
You haven't a leg to stand on here. I had already told you to re-read what I wrote--
you did NOT quote it back then -- and you are ignoring the words "By the way".
Also, you snipped what I wrote after that, which clearly showed you had no need
to even acknowledge what you call a "diversion":
"Of course, telling us one way or the other about your opinion is completely optional."
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/tFp2bNLHAwAJ
I still recommend that you look at all three of Ron O's dealings with me on this thread;
not only will you learn a thing or two about the fascinating ups and downs in the
ice ages, but you may discover that you and Ron O have a lot in common.
Peter Nyikos
It's curious the following inspires no cries of "off-topic" or
"killfiles are your friend" or "burning irony" from the peanut
gallery.
On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 21:09:05 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
I promised Glenn that I would deal with this post by you this week, Martin, >and here I am.
On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:00:25?AM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 19:19:30 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 6:10:23?AM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:
On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 19:03:51 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
I return after a bit over two months of break
Back in December, I challenged you to back up your assertion that I am >> >> an apostate Catholic.
I did not assert that. Re-read what I actually wrote, and see if you
can spot the difference.
I see you were unable to spot the difference, but that's understandable: >There is a lot of context behind the simple-sounding exchange below >between me and Glenn.
Standard Nyikos Tactic #1 - double down by telling another lie denying
the first one:
This use of the word "Standard" is a polemical gimmick with no secure foundation.
And your accusation of a lie has no justification provided by you.
=====================================
Message-ID: [email protected]
Google groups masks these message-id's because the @ makes the software >treat them like email addresses. The ellipsis hides a lot this time: >-b316-cace6095398an
I write this for the benefit of those, like jillery, who much prefer >message-Id's for posts to urls for them. And for good reason: urls have a >notorious way of becoming obsolete, while I've never seen that claimed for message-ids.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/WATJ1V2lWcI/m/vSTo4FsJBAAJ
Glenn to me:
"Everything you say just adds supports to the fact that you are an
atheist. It is why your lame crap is tolerated here."
Glenn's history of accusing you of being an atheist goes a long way back, >and I have never been party to it, and I have told him so long before the
December post from which you are quoting.
Your response to that:
"Nah, being an apostate Catholic is adequate for that."
I glossed over Glenn's use of the word "fact," knowing that he was just expressing an
opinion of his which I don't share. He had earlier seen me express a *suspicion*
that you are an apostate Catholic.
Glenn has enough common sense to factor this background into
a realization that my intended message had to do with one of the
many reasons why lame crap is tolerated by the dominant clique in talk.origins,
just as being an atheist would be.
------------------------------------------------------------------
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/m3D7t5Ija0A/m/8PWtuFFCBQAJ
Date: December 19.
Message-ID: [email protected]
Me to you:
... at the end of a long barrage of challenges and questions, all of which I answered except the last:
"Identify where I have renounced my Catholic faith to become an
apostate (waiting since 16 Dec)"
Your response:
"I don't do things on your timetable. I'm saving this one for later."
===========================================
This was to remind you of your nasty habit of calling something a lie
if one does not justify it within a time frame of your (usually private) >choosing. Your reaction illustrated that well:
######################################
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/m3D7t5Ija0A/m/KjMvB-FgBQAJ
I don't do things on your timetable. I'm saving this one for later.
Bullshit, you have absolutely nothing to keep for later to justify you >calling me an apostate Catholic. That response is an epitomic >demosnstration that you are just a lying blowhard.
##########################################
Any blowhard could make a claim like your first sentence,
and thereby conclude a second sentence like yours
from the claim. That is a Begging The Question fallacy.
Compare: "You have absolutely nothing to keep for later to justify
that humans are descended from apes." Anyone saying this could
then proceed to the same second sentence you used, by the same logic.
Fact is, one does not have to publicly renounce one's Catholic affiliation >to be an apostate. In fact, the worst kind of apostasy is to privately >conclude that the Catholic religion is bullshit, while also asserting that >one is a Catholic. It was such people that the Spanish Inquisition targeted,
not people who admitted to a different religion (usually either Judaism or Islam) publicly.
And there is plenty of reason to think that you have no use for Jesus's >commandment against bearing false witness. And next week, I will go >through a lot of what you've posted to demonstrate your cavalier attitude >towards that commandment.
By the way, I wonder whether you approve of Ron O's response to me on this thread.Standard Nyikos Tactic #2 - try to divert the discussion to something
else.
You haven't a leg to stand on here. I had already told you to re-read what I wrote--
you did NOT quote it back then -- and you are ignoring the words "By the way".
Also, you snipped what I wrote after that, which clearly showed you had no need
to even acknowledge what you call a "diversion":
"Of course, telling us one way or the other about your opinion is completely optional."
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/tFp2bNLHAwAJ
I still recommend that you look at all three of Ron O's dealings with me on this thread;
not only will you learn a thing or two about the fascinating ups and downs in the
ice ages, but you may discover that you and Ron O have a lot in common.
Peter Nyikos--
You're entitled to your own opinions.
You're not entitled to your own facts.
On 3/8/2023 7:37 PM, RonO wrote:
On 3/4/2023 9:09 PM, RonO wrote:
The last episode of the documentary series Frozen Planet II was just
on TV. They had how bad global warming is to the Arctic environment
and wild life. The ending claimed that we could change this and
limit global warming to an additional 1.5 degrees.
Species like penguins and polar bears are having a hard time, but it
should have been noted that things were worse during the last warm
period between glaciation. 130,000 years ago temperatures got warmer
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels
that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian
Ocean and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood
and terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
It seems that what we should be working on is determining how the ice
age species made it through that last environmental catastrophe that
has been occurring around every hundred thousand years for the last
million years. The intervals between warm periods have been getting
longer in the last half million years, and life on earth hasn't been
able to adapt to that very effectively. Most of the ice age
megafauna likely nearly went extinct the last warm period, and even
though their populations came back, the populations were likely not
healthy enough to survive this warm period. No wolly rhino,
mastodons, and mammoths exist anywhere. The giant bears and saber
toothed cats that fed on them didn't make it. Species like polar
bears and penguins may not survive this warm period, and could go the
way of the mammoth.
We likely need to figure out how these species survived the last warm
period that became worse than current conditions. More ice melted
last time and sea levels were as high as they are predicting for this
warm period. In order to maintain viable populations we need to make
those regions that allowed the survival of ice age species available
to these animals. More of their habitat was lost last warm period,
but the existing arctic species found somewhere to survive. We need
to figure out what those survival places were and make them available
to the species that need them.
For the penguin example, it is obvious that the last warm period the
Adele penguins had to find some place else to nest. Finding where
that was and relocating animals is likely the best way to get a large
enough population through this warm period.
The issue with man made global warming is the prediction that was put
out a few years ago that we might skip the next glacial period and
the warm period might last a hundred thousand years longer than usual.
The warm period is not the normal environment for temperate
latitudes. For the last million years most of the time the temperate
latitudes have had an arctic alpine environment. Arctic species are
adapted to what usually exists. The current environment has them
limited to the icy regions of the world, and their environment has
been rollercoasting for the last couple million years.
Ron Okimoto
I don't want to interact with a lying asshole like Nyikos, but I will
put up the supporting evidence for what I had claimed during
discussions on this topic, in order to demonstrate what an asshole
Nyikos is. Why wouldn't he look this stuff up for himself instead of
being the asshole that he is and making the claims that he made?
Evidence that there were at least two warm periods within the last
half million years where more ice melted than has melted at this time
in the current warm period.
https://academic.oup.com/zoolinnean/article/186/3/666/5487031?login=false
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20
meters higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and
a second one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure
3. I would note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to
occur if we do not curb global warming.
The wiki for ice ages has a graph on temperature and amount of ice.
It shows that it got warmer than the current warm period twice in the
last 500,000 years. More ice melted 136,000 years ago, and the rail
paper claims that sea level was 20 meters higher than today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32795436/
This paper is open access and notes the population decline of wooly
rhinos over the past 1 million years after the cold periods got longer
than 40,000 years. The same trend was noted in the genomes of wooly
mammoths. It wasn't just the ice age arctic and alpine species that
were affected by the extension of the cold period. Temperate species
such as peacocks, junglefowl and tigers show the same decline in
effective population size over this time period. So the extended cold
periods were hard on the temperate species (probably because their
habitat was restricted for a longer period of time. The arctic
species population decline was likely due to having a longer time to
adapt to the arctic conditions only to have that habitat greatly
reduced for a short, but devestating period of time. The rhinos,
mastadon and mammoth didn't make it through this warm period, but
their decline started a million years ago.
Popular science article on the rhino genome.
https://phys.org/news/2020-08-ancient-genomes-woolly-rhinos-extinct.html
Ron Okimoto
I will note that Nyikos does what he does just to harass me. He
obviously had no interest in this topic. His own projection has him
doing it because he is a sadistic hate filled maniac that thinks that he
is righting some wrong done to him in the past. Nyikos has always
brought it all onto himself. He has just added to the things that he
can't deal with in his failed attempts to lie about the past. No one
should have been subjected to the Nyikosian stupidity and harassment for
over a decade. It should be apparent that Nyikos only posted the junk
to harass me because he wasn't interested in the topic enough to read
the cited paper in order to figure out what it actually supported.
This behavior should end. I do not stalk Nyikos around TO, and Nyikos should not be allowed to continue to do what he does.
Nyikios' last attempt at harassment that should have been his last for
any sane individual.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ
This type of stupidity due to Nyikosian harassment should never take
place, but it just never ends.
I didn't expect Nyikos to address these two points because he was just
plain wrong about them, and his nit picking doesn't do much to change
that fact. I don't care about his issues with other posters. His first attempted response was pathetic, and he did try again. He did nothing
to counter the fact that there were at least two warm interglacial
periods before the current one where the temperatures were higher and
more ice melted. His stupid flailing about being wrong and the fact
that he should have been able to figure it out for himself is just
stupid. He even acknowledges that the Wiki supports me, but he makes
some stupid comment about the inversion of the graph that simply doesn't matter at all. His stupid comments about the rail extinction example is just nonsense. I used that paper to demonstrate that during the last interglacial sea levels were 20 meters higher then they are today, and
that more ice melted in the last interglacial. The Nyikosian denial
that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong
about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted.
For the rhino example the population decline did start more than a
million years ago, but so what? It still happened. Two interglacials
ago the temperatures did not get as warm as the current period, and the species of rhino under discussion and some mammoths did come through
pretty well and they show an increase in effective population size
during the cold period before the last previous interglacial where temperatures got higher than they are today and more ice melted than has melted currently. If Nyikos had bothered to read the paper for comprehension he would have understood that the authors admit that there
was a population crash during the last warm period that is not picked up
by their effective population size estimates. They cite a wooly mammoth paper as an example of the population crash that they expected to
happen. They try to explain the long tail where the effective
population size estimates stay high before bottoming out to a low long
after the population had recovered during the last cold period. Their explanation was that during the high temperature and low ice period
multiple small isolated populations survived the bottleneck, and when
they could expand out into more territory they interbred. They thought
that males moving between populations could accomplish a population
mixing that would reestablish genetic diversity that had been preserved
in the small isolated populations. In our paper that noted the decline
in genetic diversity of domestic chickens we stated the obvious
conclusion that we could recreate a population with nearly all of the
genetic diversity domestic chickens started with by crossing the extant domestic breeds together. Each population had lost diversity over time
even as their total population increased because of how they were
propagated as small flocks in isolated villages, but each population had retained a different bit of the original genetic variation, and if
combined would restore a lot of the genetic variation that domestic
chickens started with.
All this means is that the paper acknowledged that there had been a
severe population crash during the last interglacial that was not picked
up by their method of calculating effective population size. They also admit that they can't explain why their estimate of effective population
size continues to decline for tens of thousands of years after the
population had likely regained a stable size of around 100,000 breeding females. This decline is likely just a reflection of the population
crash that occurred before the population recovery because you can remix
the genetic variation, but as soon as you start crossing relatives you
are going to start loosing the genetic variation. For some reason their methods do not pick up the population crash that they expected to
happen, and instead shows a gradual decline even after the bottle neck
was resolved and a large stable population was being maintained for 10s
of thousands of years during this period of decline. They could not
explain the long decline in effective population size and the final low
that did not reflect the larger population size estimate obtained by
other means. For some reason the population bottleneck during the
previous interglacial took a long time to manifest in the rhino genome,
and did not show a recovery until after the glacial maximum when the population had actually recovered just a few thousand years after the
last warm period ended. They can't explain why the effective population estimate continued to decline and bottomed out over a period when other estimates indicated that a stable population of around 100,000 breeding females was reestablished soon after the last warm period and this
population was relatively stable over a period of 100,000 years.
So the Nyikosian response is the usual Nyikosian null response. What
Nyikos was wrong about, he is still wrong about. Nit picking and
outright stupidity will not support the harassment.
This harassment should stop. The only reason to continue the harassment
is the insane behavior of Nyikos. For whatever reason he has never been able to deal with the fact that he has been wrong about multiple things
like the present examples. All the craziness with the ID scam was due
to Nyikos' first mistake when he was wrong about the Discovery
Institute's involvement in the bait and switch that has been going on
for over 20 years. He blames me for his bumbling stupidity and
dishonesty since. It is just nuts because he wouldn't have as much of
his assoholic behavior to blame me for if he had never started his
harassment due to simply being shown to be wrong about something.
I maintain as little interaction with the lying asshole as is possible,
and if the baseless harassment continues Nyikos should be banned from
TO. I had enjoyed a fairly long break from the assoholic behavior
during the recent Nykosian vacation, and that break should be extended indefinitely. If Nyikos can't control his assoholic behavior, he should
be stopped from doing it. Nyikos didn't care if he was wrong about the junk, it was just harassment. He obviously didn't care enough about
being wrong to do what needed to be done in order to determine that he
was wrong, nor understand the paper that was used to counter his denial.
Just use the link and go back to the last such episode to determine
how tragically sad Nyikos has always been.
The last such Nykosian episode: https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ
I will likely be referring to this post to make my case in the future if
this harassment continues.
Ron Okimoto
130,000 years ago temperatures got warmer
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels
that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian Ocean
and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood and
terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20 meters higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and a second
one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure 3. I would
note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to occur if we do
not curb global warming.
The Nyikosian denial
that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong
about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted.
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 17:47:08 -0500, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by RonO <[email protected]>:
<snip a bunch-o-stuff>
Why not just ignore him, or (risking ire from parties
Nyikos can stop his harassment or he should be made to do so.
unknown for "reasons"), killfile him? Then he can't "harass"
you. Ignoring (or killfiling) assholes works just fine.
Nyikos can stop his harassment or he should be made to do so.
On 3/19/2023 4:23 PM, RonO wrote:
On 3/8/2023 7:37 PM, RonO wrote:
On 3/4/2023 9:09 PM, RonO wrote:
The last episode of the documentary series Frozen Planet II was just
on TV. They had how bad global warming is to the Arctic environment
and wild life. The ending claimed that we could change this and
limit global warming to an additional 1.5 degrees.
Species like penguins and polar bears are having a hard time, but it
should have been noted that things were worse during the last warm
period between glaciation. 130,000 years ago temperatures got warmer >>> than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels >>> that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian
Ocean and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood
and terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
It seems that what we should be working on is determining how the ice >>> age species made it through that last environmental catastrophe that
has been occurring around every hundred thousand years for the last
million years. The intervals between warm periods have been getting
longer in the last half million years, and life on earth hasn't been
able to adapt to that very effectively. Most of the ice age
megafauna likely nearly went extinct the last warm period, and even
though their populations came back, the populations were likely not
healthy enough to survive this warm period. No wolly rhino,
mastodons, and mammoths exist anywhere. The giant bears and saber
toothed cats that fed on them didn't make it. Species like polar
bears and penguins may not survive this warm period, and could go the >>> way of the mammoth.
We likely need to figure out how these species survived the last warm >>> period that became worse than current conditions. More ice melted
last time and sea levels were as high as they are predicting for this >>> warm period. In order to maintain viable populations we need to make >>> those regions that allowed the survival of ice age species available
to these animals. More of their habitat was lost last warm period,
but the existing arctic species found somewhere to survive. We need
to figure out what those survival places were and make them available >>> to the species that need them.
For the penguin example, it is obvious that the last warm period the
Adele penguins had to find some place else to nest. Finding where
that was and relocating animals is likely the best way to get a large >>> enough population through this warm period.
The issue with man made global warming is the prediction that was put >>> out a few years ago that we might skip the next glacial period and
the warm period might last a hundred thousand years longer than usual. >>>
The warm period is not the normal environment for temperate
latitudes. For the last million years most of the time the temperate
latitudes have had an arctic alpine environment. Arctic species are
adapted to what usually exists. The current environment has them
limited to the icy regions of the world, and their environment has
been rollercoasting for the last couple million years.
Ron Okimoto
I don't want to interact with a lying asshole like Nyikos, but I will
put up the supporting evidence for what I had claimed during
discussions on this topic, in order to demonstrate what an asshole
Nyikos is. Why wouldn't he look this stuff up for himself instead of
being the asshole that he is and making the claims that he made?
Evidence that there were at least two warm periods within the last
half million years where more ice melted than has melted at this time
in the current warm period.
https://academic.oup.com/zoolinnean/article/186/3/666/5487031?login=false >>
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20
meters higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and
a second one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure
3. I would note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to
occur if we do not curb global warming.
The wiki for ice ages has a graph on temperature and amount of ice.
It shows that it got warmer than the current warm period twice in the
last 500,000 years. More ice melted 136,000 years ago, and the rail
paper claims that sea level was 20 meters higher than today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32795436/
This paper is open access and notes the population decline of wooly
rhinos over the past 1 million years after the cold periods got longer
than 40,000 years. The same trend was noted in the genomes of wooly
mammoths. It wasn't just the ice age arctic and alpine species that
were affected by the extension of the cold period. Temperate species
such as peacocks, junglefowl and tigers show the same decline in
effective population size over this time period. So the extended cold
periods were hard on the temperate species (probably because their
habitat was restricted for a longer period of time. The arctic
species population decline was likely due to having a longer time to
adapt to the arctic conditions only to have that habitat greatly
reduced for a short, but devestating period of time. The rhinos,
mastadon and mammoth didn't make it through this warm period, but
their decline started a million years ago.
Popular science article on the rhino genome.
https://phys.org/news/2020-08-ancient-genomes-woolly-rhinos-extinct.html >>
Ron Okimoto
I will note that Nyikos does what he does just to harass me. He
obviously had no interest in this topic. His own projection has him
doing it because he is a sadistic hate filled maniac that thinks that he is righting some wrong done to him in the past. Nyikos has always
brought it all onto himself. He has just added to the things that he can't deal with in his failed attempts to lie about the past. No one should have been subjected to the Nyikosian stupidity and harassment for over a decade. It should be apparent that Nyikos only posted the junk
to harass me because he wasn't interested in the topic enough to read
the cited paper in order to figure out what it actually supported.
This behavior should end. I do not stalk Nyikos around TO, and Nyikos should not be allowed to continue to do what he does.
Nyikios' last attempt at harassment that should have been his last for
any sane individual.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ
This type of stupidity due to Nyikosian harassment should never take place, but it just never ends.
I didn't expect Nyikos to address these two points because he was just plain wrong about them, and his nit picking doesn't do much to change
that fact. I don't care about his issues with other posters. His first attempted response was pathetic, and he did try again. He did nothing
to counter the fact that there were at least two warm interglacial
periods before the current one where the temperatures were higher and
more ice melted. His stupid flailing about being wrong and the fact
that he should have been able to figure it out for himself is just
stupid. He even acknowledges that the Wiki supports me, but he makes
some stupid comment about the inversion of the graph that simply doesn't matter at all. His stupid comments about the rail extinction example is just nonsense. I used that paper to demonstrate that during the last interglacial sea levels were 20 meters higher then they are today, and that more ice melted in the last interglacial. The Nyikosian denial
that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted.
For the rhino example the population decline did start more than a
million years ago, but so what? It still happened. Two interglacials
ago the temperatures did not get as warm as the current period, and the species of rhino under discussion and some mammoths did come through pretty well and they show an increase in effective population size
during the cold period before the last previous interglacial where temperatures got higher than they are today and more ice melted than has melted currently. If Nyikos had bothered to read the paper for comprehension he would have understood that the authors admit that there was a population crash during the last warm period that is not picked up by their effective population size estimates. They cite a wooly mammoth paper as an example of the population crash that they expected to
happen. They try to explain the long tail where the effective
population size estimates stay high before bottoming out to a low long after the population had recovered during the last cold period. Their explanation was that during the high temperature and low ice period multiple small isolated populations survived the bottleneck, and when
they could expand out into more territory they interbred. They thought that males moving between populations could accomplish a population
mixing that would reestablish genetic diversity that had been preserved
in the small isolated populations. In our paper that noted the decline
in genetic diversity of domestic chickens we stated the obvious
conclusion that we could recreate a population with nearly all of the genetic diversity domestic chickens started with by crossing the extant domestic breeds together. Each population had lost diversity over time even as their total population increased because of how they were propagated as small flocks in isolated villages, but each population had retained a different bit of the original genetic variation, and if combined would restore a lot of the genetic variation that domestic chickens started with.
All this means is that the paper acknowledged that there had been a
severe population crash during the last interglacial that was not picked up by their method of calculating effective population size. They also admit that they can't explain why their estimate of effective population size continues to decline for tens of thousands of years after the population had likely regained a stable size of around 100,000 breeding females. This decline is likely just a reflection of the population
crash that occurred before the population recovery because you can remix the genetic variation, but as soon as you start crossing relatives you
are going to start loosing the genetic variation. For some reason their methods do not pick up the population crash that they expected to
happen, and instead shows a gradual decline even after the bottle neck
was resolved and a large stable population was being maintained for 10s
of thousands of years during this period of decline. They could not explain the long decline in effective population size and the final low that did not reflect the larger population size estimate obtained by
other means. For some reason the population bottleneck during the previous interglacial took a long time to manifest in the rhino genome, and did not show a recovery until after the glacial maximum when the population had actually recovered just a few thousand years after the
last warm period ended. They can't explain why the effective population estimate continued to decline and bottomed out over a period when other estimates indicated that a stable population of around 100,000 breeding females was reestablished soon after the last warm period and this population was relatively stable over a period of 100,000 years.
So the Nyikosian response is the usual Nyikosian null response. What Nyikos was wrong about, he is still wrong about. Nit picking and
outright stupidity will not support the harassment.
This harassment should stop. The only reason to continue the harassment is the insane behavior of Nyikos. For whatever reason he has never been able to deal with the fact that he has been wrong about multiple things like the present examples. All the craziness with the ID scam was due
to Nyikos' first mistake when he was wrong about the Discovery
Institute's involvement in the bait and switch that has been going on
for over 20 years. He blames me for his bumbling stupidity and
dishonesty since. It is just nuts because he wouldn't have as much of
his assoholic behavior to blame me for if he had never started his harassment due to simply being shown to be wrong about something.
I maintain as little interaction with the lying asshole as is possible, and if the baseless harassment continues Nyikos should be banned from
TO. I had enjoyed a fairly long break from the assoholic behavior
during the recent Nykosian vacation, and that break should be extended indefinitely. If Nyikos can't control his assoholic behavior, he should be stopped from doing it. Nyikos didn't care if he was wrong about the junk, it was just harassment. He obviously didn't care enough about
being wrong to do what needed to be done in order to determine that he
was wrong, nor understand the paper that was used to counter his denial.
Just use the link and go back to the last such episode to determine
how tragically sad Nyikos has always been.
The last such Nykosian episode: https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ
I will likely be referring to this post to make my case in the future if this harassment continues.
Ron Okimoto
It looks like I will have to ask for Nyikos to be banned for his
obnoxious harassing behavior. If Nyikos wants to defend himself he
should start looking for any harassing posts that had a positive outcome
for him. There may be one or two, but my guess is that 99.9 percent of Nyikos' posts to me have contained senseless harassing material. All
his lies about the past never worked out for him, so around 80 to 90% of
his harassing posts over the last decade have been a dead loss for
Nyikos. It is apparent that it has been pretty much all harassment
because around a year after Nyikos' return; a year of his senseless stupidity and lies about the Discovery Institute and the creationist ID scam, Nyikos claimed that he had knocked me down 3 times. He claimed
that he would post the knockdowns within a couple weeks of his posting
his initial knockdown and claims of having two more to post. So even to Nyikos his efforts were just harassment and trying to knock me down. The
sad thing is that Nyikos could not find anything in that years worth of harassing posts that he could list as a win for him. He had always just obfuscated the issue, run and or lied to his limit for lying. Nyikos
kept claiming that the knockdowns were still coming for around 3 years,
and never produced anything that could be considered positive for
Nyikos. The claims ended with the Nyikosian claim that he had delivered
the third knockdown, but Nyikos would not provide a link nor tell me
where the post was supposed to be. It had been 3 additional years of assoholic harassing posts, and they all turned out like the current
example. Nyikos never got any better as the harassment has continued
for over a decade. If Nyikos wants to claim that it hasn't been over a decade of assoholic harassment, he should be able to produce hundreds of posts where he had a legitimate beef. This example and the previous
example (already linked to in previous posts) obviously do not qualify. Someone might think that even a bumbling assoholic harasser would have multiple examples where his harassment was justified in some legitimate
way, but Nyikos has never cared if he had any legitimate reason to
harass me, and his degenerate record demonstrates that. Over a decade
of harassment, and what does Nyikos have to show for it?
Nyikos should be required to produce any posts that Nyikos made to
harass me for over a decade that he thinks were legitimate and had a positive outcome for the loser. If he ever had any legitimate reasons
for doing what he has done he should have hundreds of examples, but he couldn't come up with any for the first 4 years of his harassment, and I don't recall any examples since. Even if Nyikos could scrounge up 1 or
2 examples (I doubt it) how sad would that be for over a decade of
senseless harassment?
This post will likely be one of them that will be submitted to Grieg in
the request to ban Nyikos from TO. It doesn't look like Nyikos is able
to stop himself from doing what he has done since he came back to TO.
Over a decade of this type of stupid senseless harassment should be
enough for any sadistic asshole like Nyikos. I do not stalk Nyikos
around TO. It is Nyikos that nearly always has to post his harassing
posts to me. There is no reason for it to continue. If Nyikos can't
control his assoholic tendencies he should be made to do so. It has
been really sad that it takes putting Nyikos down like the rabid dog
that he is in no uncertain terms until he reaches his limit for lying
about the stupid junk that he posts. The harassment for over a decade
is due to Nyikos being wrong about something in, probably, the first
post he posted after his return. Nyikos had a, likely involuntary,
absence, from TO for nearly a decade, and made his return Dec. 2010.
For Nyikosian reasons he has had to lie about that post in anyway that
he can, and has had to maintain his harassment due to just being wrong
about something. It never gets any better because Nyikos just generates
more that he has to lie about in his sadistic endeavor. This incessant harassment has never worked out well for Nyikos because there was never
any legitimate reason for the harassment to start.
The lies and nonsensical harrassment continues, and if it doesn't stop I will be forced to formally get Grieg into this and start the process for getting Nyikos removed from TO. I do not harass Nyikos, and there is no
sane reason for Nyikos to continue his sadistic behavior. He knows that
he is a sadistic maniac because that is what he projects onto me when I
am being the victim of his abuse. Over a decade of this type of
stupidity should be long enough for anyone. Nyikos obviously didn't
care enough about the current topic to understand what he was harassing
me about, and now just has to lie about the effort to continue his harassment. Enough is enough, and Nyikos should be banned if he can't restrain himself.
I have repeatedly told the asshole that I do not care about his issues
with other posters. Why would anyone? Still in his last response he continues to whine about other posters even after being informed as to
how assoholic such behavior is. It is just insane and it should stop.
Anyone just has to look at other posters responding to the junk Nyikos writes about them in his posts that are supposedly addressing my posts.
I do not even read most of what Nyikos posts on TO, so he has free reign
to lie about me to other posters, but by this time my guess is that
there aren't very many TO posters that do not understand what a lying asshole Nyikos has always been. There is no sane reason for Nyikos to
harass me as he continues to do.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/SX7EUqzOAAAJ
Nyikos snips and runs from what he can't deal with, and that is obvious
in the above link. He then lies about one of the issues that he
harassed me about. It is a stupid lie, and I can't figure out why
anyone would think that, that type of response was valid.
Nyikos initial harassing claims:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/7z8nZ0LbAgAJ
QUOTE:
130,000 years ago temperatures got warmerIf you have a source for this, did it actually cite studies done on
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels
that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian Ocean
and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood and terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
those islands,
or did it merely deduce these things from the average global sea level rise? END QUOTE:
Nyikos obviously is harassing me about citations for temperature, more
ice melting and sea levels rising higher than they are now. He should
have countered with references claiming otherwise, but he would have
found collaborating evidence if he had bothered to check things out himself.
Nyikos' bogus harassing response after getting reference:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/5ykTUUo6BgAJ
QUOTE:
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20 meters higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and a second one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure 3. I wouldRon O talks about little birds instead of megafauna, leaving his earlier assertion high and dry.
note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to occur if we do
not curb global warming.
END QUOTE:
Nyikos' response to having his stupidity noted:
Nyikos obviously posted this harassement with no regard to wanting to understand much of what he was harassing me about.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/SX7EUqzOAAAJ\
QUOTE:
The Nyikosian denialI never said anything about either of those two topics. Ron O is in the
that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted.
grip of what is, at best, a bunch of false recollections.
END QUOTE:
Nyikos just lies, and then claims that it is my false recollection that
is the issue. Nyikos obviously is not interested in this topic enough
to track his own harassing claims.
If this type of harassment continues I will ask for Nyikos to be banned
from TO. The last instance should have been enough for anyone, but not
for an assoholic poster like Nyikos.
The link below is the last example that Nyikos snipped out of his
responses. It occurred just before Nyikos took his recent 2 month
vacation. This current harassment just has fewer outright lies in it.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ
If Nyikos can't control himself he should be banned from TO. I do not
follow Nyikos around TO and harass the asshole, and there is no reason
for him to harass anyone. Elsewhere Nyikos is comparing himself to
Kleinman. Kleinman was just about an order of magnitude worse than
Nyikos. Klienman started his harassment because he was wrong about
something stupid. He claimed that he could use the product rule
(multiply the two individual probabilities to calculate the
probabilities of both occurring in the same cell) for two mutations occurring in the same cell lineage, but his example was that they were occurring in different generations. He was obviously wrong and his own reference told him that the product rule had issues when the events were temporally separated. I gave him the Behe and Snokes reference, and how
they dealt with the issue of two mutations occurring in the same cell lineage, but Kleinman would not accept that he was wrong, and started
lying about me, and claiming that I didn't know the math. Kleinman
would post to me and tell the same lies in multiple posts in multiple threads nearly every day for around a year. It didn't matter what the
topic of the thread was, the same harassing claims would be made over
and over. Just a few weeks should have been enough, but Kleinman could
not stop himself, and I asked that he be banned.
Nyikos is the same way except Nyikos has been less insane about his harassing efforts. Nyikos would post to me on any topic and lie about
the past. It was insane. I had to create "REPOSTS" that contained all
the evidence that Nyikos was lying about the past, and I reposted them
when he started to lie about the past again. That should have ended a
decade ago with his "Dirty Debating Thread" that Nyikos had started, in order to harass me. I had already stopped reading most of what Nyikos
posted on TO and just basically dealt with what he posted to me. Nyikos
had to come to me and tell me that I had to address the stupid lies that
he was posting in the dirty debating thread. Nyikos has been lying
about the issues he lied about in that thread for over a decade. His
insane last effort made him quit harassing me about those issues (it has been around half a year, and Nyikos could start back up at anytime, but
this has been the longest break in his harassment about those issues
since Nyikos returned in Dec 2010) but Nyikos can't give up on the
insane harassment.
This is the thread that has ended the Nyikosian harassment about the
Dirty debating thread from back in Aug 2022. Since then Nyikos stopped incessantly lying about these issues, but he decided to create new
stupidity to harass me about.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/0GJ7i2VKEbg/m/8VgLI1iOAAAJ
Really, it took Nyikos over a decade to stop harassing me about those issues. He may start up again, but his previous longest break that I
recall was around 3 months. Nyikos has routinely reached his limit for
lying about the same thing and will give it up for a month or two, but
only restarts lying about the past once he thinks that it is OK to do so again. He has no reason to keep harassing me.
The harassment about the dirty debating issues should have ended long
before the later part of last year. What consistently happens is that
Nyikos resorts to broadening the topics that he has to lie about. He
has always known that he was wrong about the involvement of the ID perps
in the bait and switch, and all of the dirty debating nonsense
accumulated due to his propensity to lie about other issues in order to harass me about his being wrong about something as stupid as the ID
perps running the teach ID scam. He got shut down hard last August and
has been accumulating more stupidity to harass me about since. The harassment should have never started. Kleinman may have been an order of magnitude worse than Nyikos in terms of frequency, but Nyikos has been
at it for over a decade. Enough is enough.
Probably the saddest thing about the Nykosian harassment over the years
is that Nyikos is always shown to be the lying asshole. He has behaved
this way for over a decade (since Dec 2010) and I do not recall anything that Nyikos has tried to harass me with ever accomplishing anything
positive for Nyikos. This is due to the fact that Nyikos can't help
himself and usually makes up the issue that he ends up lying about.
Every single one of his posts involving the teach ID scam and the ID
perp involvement have been a dead loss for Nyikos. I really can't
recall any instance where Nyikos was not shown to be the lying asshole
that he is. In his projection of the subject he has claimed that he
does it because he is a hate filled sadistic maniac that has to try to
right some imaginary wrong done to him. Nyikos should make an effort to
come up with any legitimate "knockdown" instances in order to defend his obnoxious behavior to Grieg. Nyikos could not put up any in the first 4 years of his harassment, and I do not recall any since.
As noted above, a decade ago during the Dirty Debating thread fiasco
Nyikos started another thread to harass me claiming that he was going to
put up three instances where he had knocked me down in the boxing ring.
His first alleged knockdown blew up in his face because he made up the issue. Things did not occur the way that he had claimed. For weeks he
ran from what he had done and even lied about me not posting a rebuttal
to the thread. Nyikos couldn't identify any other possible knockdown
events that had ever happened, and even though he claimed that he would produce the other two knockdowns in a week or two, years passed. His
stated goal was to achieve a technical knockout, but no knockdowns
existed. His second alleged knockdown was the event where he projected
his sadistic behavior onto me. Nyikos had started a side thread and
changed the title claiming that I had done something funny. He had
obviously started the side thread to make fun of me, and he posted
multiple posts claiming that what I had done was really funny but would
not deliver the punch line. He seemed to be savoring every moment of
the extended trial, but when he finally produced what was "so funny", I
only had to point out that Google didn't work that way, so I could not
have been guilty of doing anything "funny". Nyikos went into his
sadistic hate filled rage, as if I had been the one trying to make fun
of him, and that was supposed to be his second knockdown. Around 3
years would pass before Nyikos informed me that he had posted the third knockdown, but he wouldn't tell me where or give me a link. Nyikos
never provided any evidence that the third knockdown ever existed. The
whole 3 additional years of harassment had come to naught for Nyikos, he could never come up with an instance where his harassment had actually
been about anything real for those 3 years and before. His harassment
has been like that for over a decade, and that is long enough.
If Nyikos wants to continue his harassment he should reflect on the fact
of how dismal his efforts have been for him. These posts are what will
be submitted to Grieg in order to support his banning from TO, so Nyikos should reflect on the facts of the last decade of his stupid assoholic harassment.
Nyikos can stop his harassment or he should be made to do so.
Ron Okimoto
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 17:47:08 -0500, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by RonO <[email protected]>:
<snip a bunch-o-stuff>
Why not just ignore him, or (risking ire from parties
Nyikos can stop his harassment or he should be made to do so.
unknown for "reasons"), killfile him? Then he can't "harass"
you. Ignoring (or killfiling) assholes works just fine.
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 6:50:39 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/19/2023 4:23 PM, RonO wrote:
On 3/8/2023 7:37 PM, RonO wrote:It looks like I will have to ask for Nyikos to be banned for his
On 3/4/2023 9:09 PM, RonO wrote:
The last episode of the documentary series Frozen Planet II was just >>>>> on TV. They had how bad global warming is to the Arctic environment >>>>> and wild life. The ending claimed that we could change this and
limit global warming to an additional 1.5 degrees.
Species like penguins and polar bears are having a hard time, but it >>>>> should have been noted that things were worse during the last warm
period between glaciation. 130,000 years ago temperatures got warmer >>>>> than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels >>>>> that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian
Ocean and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood
and terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
It seems that what we should be working on is determining how the ice >>>>> age species made it through that last environmental catastrophe that >>>>> has been occurring around every hundred thousand years for the last
million years. The intervals between warm periods have been getting >>>>> longer in the last half million years, and life on earth hasn't been >>>>> able to adapt to that very effectively. Most of the ice age
megafauna likely nearly went extinct the last warm period, and even
though their populations came back, the populations were likely not
healthy enough to survive this warm period. No wolly rhino,
mastodons, and mammoths exist anywhere. The giant bears and saber
toothed cats that fed on them didn't make it. Species like polar
bears and penguins may not survive this warm period, and could go the >>>>> way of the mammoth.
We likely need to figure out how these species survived the last warm >>>>> period that became worse than current conditions. More ice melted
last time and sea levels were as high as they are predicting for this >>>>> warm period. In order to maintain viable populations we need to make >>>>> those regions that allowed the survival of ice age species available >>>>> to these animals. More of their habitat was lost last warm period,
but the existing arctic species found somewhere to survive. We need >>>>> to figure out what those survival places were and make them available >>>>> to the species that need them.
For the penguin example, it is obvious that the last warm period the >>>>> Adele penguins had to find some place else to nest. Finding where
that was and relocating animals is likely the best way to get a large >>>>> enough population through this warm period.
The issue with man made global warming is the prediction that was put >>>>> out a few years ago that we might skip the next glacial period and
the warm period might last a hundred thousand years longer than usual. >>>>>
The warm period is not the normal environment for temperate
latitudes. For the last million years most of the time the temperate >>>>> latitudes have had an arctic alpine environment. Arctic species are >>>>> adapted to what usually exists. The current environment has them
limited to the icy regions of the world, and their environment has
been rollercoasting for the last couple million years.
Ron Okimoto
I don't want to interact with a lying asshole like Nyikos, but I will
put up the supporting evidence for what I had claimed during
discussions on this topic, in order to demonstrate what an asshole
Nyikos is. Why wouldn't he look this stuff up for himself instead of
being the asshole that he is and making the claims that he made?
Evidence that there were at least two warm periods within the last
half million years where more ice melted than has melted at this time
in the current warm period.
https://academic.oup.com/zoolinnean/article/186/3/666/5487031?login=false >>>>
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20
meters higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and >>>> a second one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure
3. I would note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to
occur if we do not curb global warming.
The wiki for ice ages has a graph on temperature and amount of ice.
It shows that it got warmer than the current warm period twice in the
last 500,000 years. More ice melted 136,000 years ago, and the rail
paper claims that sea level was 20 meters higher than today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32795436/
This paper is open access and notes the population decline of wooly
rhinos over the past 1 million years after the cold periods got longer >>>> than 40,000 years. The same trend was noted in the genomes of wooly
mammoths. It wasn't just the ice age arctic and alpine species that
were affected by the extension of the cold period. Temperate species
such as peacocks, junglefowl and tigers show the same decline in
effective population size over this time period. So the extended cold >>>> periods were hard on the temperate species (probably because their
habitat was restricted for a longer period of time. The arctic
species population decline was likely due to having a longer time to
adapt to the arctic conditions only to have that habitat greatly
reduced for a short, but devestating period of time. The rhinos,
mastadon and mammoth didn't make it through this warm period, but
their decline started a million years ago.
Popular science article on the rhino genome.
https://phys.org/news/2020-08-ancient-genomes-woolly-rhinos-extinct.html >>>>
Ron Okimoto
I will note that Nyikos does what he does just to harass me. He
obviously had no interest in this topic. His own projection has him
doing it because he is a sadistic hate filled maniac that thinks that he >>> is righting some wrong done to him in the past. Nyikos has always
brought it all onto himself. He has just added to the things that he
can't deal with in his failed attempts to lie about the past. No one
should have been subjected to the Nyikosian stupidity and harassment for >>> over a decade. It should be apparent that Nyikos only posted the junk
to harass me because he wasn't interested in the topic enough to read
the cited paper in order to figure out what it actually supported.
This behavior should end. I do not stalk Nyikos around TO, and Nyikos
should not be allowed to continue to do what he does.
Nyikios' last attempt at harassment that should have been his last for
any sane individual.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ
This type of stupidity due to Nyikosian harassment should never take
place, but it just never ends.
I didn't expect Nyikos to address these two points because he was just
plain wrong about them, and his nit picking doesn't do much to change
that fact. I don't care about his issues with other posters. His first >>> attempted response was pathetic, and he did try again. He did nothing
to counter the fact that there were at least two warm interglacial
periods before the current one where the temperatures were higher and
more ice melted. His stupid flailing about being wrong and the fact
that he should have been able to figure it out for himself is just
stupid. He even acknowledges that the Wiki supports me, but he makes
some stupid comment about the inversion of the graph that simply doesn't >>> matter at all. His stupid comments about the rail extinction example is >>> just nonsense. I used that paper to demonstrate that during the last
interglacial sea levels were 20 meters higher then they are today, and
that more ice melted in the last interglacial. The Nyikosian denial
that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong
about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted.
For the rhino example the population decline did start more than a
million years ago, but so what? It still happened. Two interglacials
ago the temperatures did not get as warm as the current period, and the
species of rhino under discussion and some mammoths did come through
pretty well and they show an increase in effective population size
during the cold period before the last previous interglacial where
temperatures got higher than they are today and more ice melted than has >>> melted currently. If Nyikos had bothered to read the paper for
comprehension he would have understood that the authors admit that there >>> was a population crash during the last warm period that is not picked up >>> by their effective population size estimates. They cite a wooly mammoth >>> paper as an example of the population crash that they expected to
happen. They try to explain the long tail where the effective
population size estimates stay high before bottoming out to a low long
after the population had recovered during the last cold period. Their
explanation was that during the high temperature and low ice period
multiple small isolated populations survived the bottleneck, and when
they could expand out into more territory they interbred. They thought
that males moving between populations could accomplish a population
mixing that would reestablish genetic diversity that had been preserved
in the small isolated populations. In our paper that noted the decline
in genetic diversity of domestic chickens we stated the obvious
conclusion that we could recreate a population with nearly all of the
genetic diversity domestic chickens started with by crossing the extant
domestic breeds together. Each population had lost diversity over time
even as their total population increased because of how they were
propagated as small flocks in isolated villages, but each population had >>> retained a different bit of the original genetic variation, and if
combined would restore a lot of the genetic variation that domestic
chickens started with.
All this means is that the paper acknowledged that there had been a
severe population crash during the last interglacial that was not picked >>> up by their method of calculating effective population size. They also
admit that they can't explain why their estimate of effective population >>> size continues to decline for tens of thousands of years after the
population had likely regained a stable size of around 100,000 breeding
females. This decline is likely just a reflection of the population
crash that occurred before the population recovery because you can remix >>> the genetic variation, but as soon as you start crossing relatives you
are going to start loosing the genetic variation. For some reason their >>> methods do not pick up the population crash that they expected to
happen, and instead shows a gradual decline even after the bottle neck
was resolved and a large stable population was being maintained for 10s
of thousands of years during this period of decline. They could not
explain the long decline in effective population size and the final low
that did not reflect the larger population size estimate obtained by
other means. For some reason the population bottleneck during the
previous interglacial took a long time to manifest in the rhino genome,
and did not show a recovery until after the glacial maximum when the
population had actually recovered just a few thousand years after the
last warm period ended. They can't explain why the effective population
estimate continued to decline and bottomed out over a period when other
estimates indicated that a stable population of around 100,000 breeding
females was reestablished soon after the last warm period and this
population was relatively stable over a period of 100,000 years.
So the Nyikosian response is the usual Nyikosian null response. What
Nyikos was wrong about, he is still wrong about. Nit picking and
outright stupidity will not support the harassment.
This harassment should stop. The only reason to continue the harassment >>> is the insane behavior of Nyikos. For whatever reason he has never been >>> able to deal with the fact that he has been wrong about multiple things
like the present examples. All the craziness with the ID scam was due
to Nyikos' first mistake when he was wrong about the Discovery
Institute's involvement in the bait and switch that has been going on
for over 20 years. He blames me for his bumbling stupidity and
dishonesty since. It is just nuts because he wouldn't have as much of
his assoholic behavior to blame me for if he had never started his
harassment due to simply being shown to be wrong about something.
I maintain as little interaction with the lying asshole as is possible,
and if the baseless harassment continues Nyikos should be banned from
TO. I had enjoyed a fairly long break from the assoholic behavior
during the recent Nykosian vacation, and that break should be extended
indefinitely. If Nyikos can't control his assoholic behavior, he should >>> be stopped from doing it. Nyikos didn't care if he was wrong about the
junk, it was just harassment. He obviously didn't care enough about
being wrong to do what needed to be done in order to determine that he
was wrong, nor understand the paper that was used to counter his denial. >>> Just use the link and go back to the last such episode to determine
how tragically sad Nyikos has always been.
The last such Nykosian episode:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ
I will likely be referring to this post to make my case in the future if >>> this harassment continues.
Ron Okimoto
obnoxious harassing behavior. If Nyikos wants to defend himself he
should start looking for any harassing posts that had a positive outcome
for him. There may be one or two, but my guess is that 99.9 percent of
Nyikos' posts to me have contained senseless harassing material. All
his lies about the past never worked out for him, so around 80 to 90% of
his harassing posts over the last decade have been a dead loss for
Nyikos. It is apparent that it has been pretty much all harassment
because around a year after Nyikos' return; a year of his senseless
stupidity and lies about the Discovery Institute and the creationist ID
scam, Nyikos claimed that he had knocked me down 3 times. He claimed
that he would post the knockdowns within a couple weeks of his posting
his initial knockdown and claims of having two more to post. So even to
Nyikos his efforts were just harassment and trying to knock me down. The
sad thing is that Nyikos could not find anything in that years worth of
harassing posts that he could list as a win for him. He had always just
obfuscated the issue, run and or lied to his limit for lying. Nyikos
kept claiming that the knockdowns were still coming for around 3 years,
and never produced anything that could be considered positive for
Nyikos. The claims ended with the Nyikosian claim that he had delivered
the third knockdown, but Nyikos would not provide a link nor tell me
where the post was supposed to be. It had been 3 additional years of
assoholic harassing posts, and they all turned out like the current
example. Nyikos never got any better as the harassment has continued
for over a decade. If Nyikos wants to claim that it hasn't been over a
decade of assoholic harassment, he should be able to produce hundreds of
posts where he had a legitimate beef. This example and the previous
example (already linked to in previous posts) obviously do not qualify.
Someone might think that even a bumbling assoholic harasser would have
multiple examples where his harassment was justified in some legitimate
way, but Nyikos has never cared if he had any legitimate reason to
harass me, and his degenerate record demonstrates that. Over a decade
of harassment, and what does Nyikos have to show for it?
Nyikos should be required to produce any posts that Nyikos made to
harass me for over a decade that he thinks were legitimate and had a
positive outcome for the loser. If he ever had any legitimate reasons
for doing what he has done he should have hundreds of examples, but he
couldn't come up with any for the first 4 years of his harassment, and I
don't recall any examples since. Even if Nyikos could scrounge up 1 or
2 examples (I doubt it) how sad would that be for over a decade of
senseless harassment?
This post will likely be one of them that will be submitted to Grieg in
the request to ban Nyikos from TO. It doesn't look like Nyikos is able
to stop himself from doing what he has done since he came back to TO.
Over a decade of this type of stupid senseless harassment should be
enough for any sadistic asshole like Nyikos. I do not stalk Nyikos
around TO. It is Nyikos that nearly always has to post his harassing
posts to me. There is no reason for it to continue. If Nyikos can't
control his assoholic tendencies he should be made to do so. It has
been really sad that it takes putting Nyikos down like the rabid dog
that he is in no uncertain terms until he reaches his limit for lying
about the stupid junk that he posts. The harassment for over a decade
is due to Nyikos being wrong about something in, probably, the first
post he posted after his return. Nyikos had a, likely involuntary,
absence, from TO for nearly a decade, and made his return Dec. 2010.
For Nyikosian reasons he has had to lie about that post in anyway that
he can, and has had to maintain his harassment due to just being wrong
about something. It never gets any better because Nyikos just generates
more that he has to lie about in his sadistic endeavor. This incessant
harassment has never worked out well for Nyikos because there was never
any legitimate reason for the harassment to start.
The lies and nonsensical harrassment continues, and if it doesn't stop I
will be forced to formally get Grieg into this and start the process for
getting Nyikos removed from TO. I do not harass Nyikos, and there is no
sane reason for Nyikos to continue his sadistic behavior. He knows that
he is a sadistic maniac because that is what he projects onto me when I
am being the victim of his abuse. Over a decade of this type of
stupidity should be long enough for anyone. Nyikos obviously didn't
care enough about the current topic to understand what he was harassing
me about, and now just has to lie about the effort to continue his
harassment. Enough is enough, and Nyikos should be banned if he can't
restrain himself.
I have repeatedly told the asshole that I do not care about his issues
with other posters. Why would anyone? Still in his last response he
continues to whine about other posters even after being informed as to
how assoholic such behavior is. It is just insane and it should stop.
Anyone just has to look at other posters responding to the junk Nyikos
writes about them in his posts that are supposedly addressing my posts.
I do not even read most of what Nyikos posts on TO, so he has free reign
to lie about me to other posters, but by this time my guess is that
there aren't very many TO posters that do not understand what a lying
asshole Nyikos has always been. There is no sane reason for Nyikos to
harass me as he continues to do.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/SX7EUqzOAAAJ
Nyikos snips and runs from what he can't deal with, and that is obvious
in the above link. He then lies about one of the issues that he
harassed me about. It is a stupid lie, and I can't figure out why
anyone would think that, that type of response was valid.
Nyikos initial harassing claims:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/7z8nZ0LbAgAJ
QUOTE:
130,000 years ago temperatures got warmerIf you have a source for this, did it actually cite studies done on
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels
that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian Ocean
and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood and
terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
those islands,
or did it merely deduce these things from the average global sea level rise? >> END QUOTE:
Nyikos obviously is harassing me about citations for temperature, more
ice melting and sea levels rising higher than they are now. He should
have countered with references claiming otherwise, but he would have
found collaborating evidence if he had bothered to check things out himself. >>
Nyikos' bogus harassing response after getting reference:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/5ykTUUo6BgAJ
QUOTE:
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20 meters >>> higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and a secondRon O talks about little birds instead of megafauna, leaving his earlier
one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure 3. I would
note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to occur if we do
not curb global warming.
assertion high and dry.
END QUOTE:
Nyikos' response to having his stupidity noted:
Nyikos obviously posted this harassement with no regard to wanting to
understand much of what he was harassing me about.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/SX7EUqzOAAAJ\
QUOTE:
The Nyikosian denialI never said anything about either of those two topics. Ron O is in the
that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong
about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted.
grip of what is, at best, a bunch of false recollections.
END QUOTE:
Nyikos just lies, and then claims that it is my false recollection that
is the issue. Nyikos obviously is not interested in this topic enough
to track his own harassing claims.
If this type of harassment continues I will ask for Nyikos to be banned
from TO. The last instance should have been enough for anyone, but not
for an assoholic poster like Nyikos.
The link below is the last example that Nyikos snipped out of his
responses. It occurred just before Nyikos took his recent 2 month
vacation. This current harassment just has fewer outright lies in it.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ
If Nyikos can't control himself he should be banned from TO. I do not
follow Nyikos around TO and harass the asshole, and there is no reason
for him to harass anyone. Elsewhere Nyikos is comparing himself to
Kleinman. Kleinman was just about an order of magnitude worse than
Nyikos. Klienman started his harassment because he was wrong about
something stupid. He claimed that he could use the product rule
(multiply the two individual probabilities to calculate the
probabilities of both occurring in the same cell) for two mutations
occurring in the same cell lineage, but his example was that they were
occurring in different generations. He was obviously wrong and his own
reference told him that the product rule had issues when the events were
temporally separated. I gave him the Behe and Snokes reference, and how
they dealt with the issue of two mutations occurring in the same cell
lineage, but Kleinman would not accept that he was wrong, and started
lying about me, and claiming that I didn't know the math. Kleinman
would post to me and tell the same lies in multiple posts in multiple
threads nearly every day for around a year. It didn't matter what the
topic of the thread was, the same harassing claims would be made over
and over. Just a few weeks should have been enough, but Kleinman could
not stop himself, and I asked that he be banned.
Nyikos is the same way except Nyikos has been less insane about his
harassing efforts. Nyikos would post to me on any topic and lie about
the past. It was insane. I had to create "REPOSTS" that contained all
the evidence that Nyikos was lying about the past, and I reposted them
when he started to lie about the past again. That should have ended a
decade ago with his "Dirty Debating Thread" that Nyikos had started, in
order to harass me. I had already stopped reading most of what Nyikos
posted on TO and just basically dealt with what he posted to me. Nyikos
had to come to me and tell me that I had to address the stupid lies that
he was posting in the dirty debating thread. Nyikos has been lying
about the issues he lied about in that thread for over a decade. His
insane last effort made him quit harassing me about those issues (it has
been around half a year, and Nyikos could start back up at anytime, but
this has been the longest break in his harassment about those issues
since Nyikos returned in Dec 2010) but Nyikos can't give up on the
insane harassment.
This is the thread that has ended the Nyikosian harassment about the
Dirty debating thread from back in Aug 2022. Since then Nyikos stopped
incessantly lying about these issues, but he decided to create new
stupidity to harass me about.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/0GJ7i2VKEbg/m/8VgLI1iOAAAJ
Really, it took Nyikos over a decade to stop harassing me about those
issues. He may start up again, but his previous longest break that I
recall was around 3 months. Nyikos has routinely reached his limit for
lying about the same thing and will give it up for a month or two, but
only restarts lying about the past once he thinks that it is OK to do so
again. He has no reason to keep harassing me.
The harassment about the dirty debating issues should have ended long
before the later part of last year. What consistently happens is that
Nyikos resorts to broadening the topics that he has to lie about. He
has always known that he was wrong about the involvement of the ID perps
in the bait and switch, and all of the dirty debating nonsense
accumulated due to his propensity to lie about other issues in order to
harass me about his being wrong about something as stupid as the ID
perps running the teach ID scam. He got shut down hard last August and
has been accumulating more stupidity to harass me about since. The
harassment should have never started. Kleinman may have been an order of
magnitude worse than Nyikos in terms of frequency, but Nyikos has been
at it for over a decade. Enough is enough.
Probably the saddest thing about the Nykosian harassment over the years
is that Nyikos is always shown to be the lying asshole. He has behaved
this way for over a decade (since Dec 2010) and I do not recall anything
that Nyikos has tried to harass me with ever accomplishing anything
positive for Nyikos. This is due to the fact that Nyikos can't help
himself and usually makes up the issue that he ends up lying about.
Every single one of his posts involving the teach ID scam and the ID
perp involvement have been a dead loss for Nyikos. I really can't
recall any instance where Nyikos was not shown to be the lying asshole
that he is. In his projection of the subject he has claimed that he
does it because he is a hate filled sadistic maniac that has to try to
right some imaginary wrong done to him. Nyikos should make an effort to
come up with any legitimate "knockdown" instances in order to defend his
obnoxious behavior to Grieg. Nyikos could not put up any in the first 4
years of his harassment, and I do not recall any since.
As noted above, a decade ago during the Dirty Debating thread fiasco
Nyikos started another thread to harass me claiming that he was going to
put up three instances where he had knocked me down in the boxing ring.
His first alleged knockdown blew up in his face because he made up the
issue. Things did not occur the way that he had claimed. For weeks he
ran from what he had done and even lied about me not posting a rebuttal
to the thread. Nyikos couldn't identify any other possible knockdown
events that had ever happened, and even though he claimed that he would
produce the other two knockdowns in a week or two, years passed. His
stated goal was to achieve a technical knockout, but no knockdowns
existed. His second alleged knockdown was the event where he projected
his sadistic behavior onto me. Nyikos had started a side thread and
changed the title claiming that I had done something funny. He had
obviously started the side thread to make fun of me, and he posted
multiple posts claiming that what I had done was really funny but would
not deliver the punch line. He seemed to be savoring every moment of
the extended trial, but when he finally produced what was "so funny", I
only had to point out that Google didn't work that way, so I could not
have been guilty of doing anything "funny". Nyikos went into his
sadistic hate filled rage, as if I had been the one trying to make fun
of him, and that was supposed to be his second knockdown. Around 3
years would pass before Nyikos informed me that he had posted the third
knockdown, but he wouldn't tell me where or give me a link. Nyikos
never provided any evidence that the third knockdown ever existed. The
whole 3 additional years of harassment had come to naught for Nyikos, he
could never come up with an instance where his harassment had actually
been about anything real for those 3 years and before. His harassment
has been like that for over a decade, and that is long enough.
If Nyikos wants to continue his harassment he should reflect on the fact
of how dismal his efforts have been for him. These posts are what will
be submitted to Grieg in order to support his banning from TO, so Nyikos
should reflect on the facts of the last decade of his stupid assoholic
harassment.
Nyikos can stop his harassment or he should be made to do so.
Ron Okimoto
Ron, just as was the case with Alan Kleinman, it is perfectly easy to ignore this guy. Just because somebody names you in a post does not mean you have to respond or pay attention in any way.
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 8:50:39 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/26/2023 6:22 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 6:50:39 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/19/2023 4:23 PM, RonO wrote:
On 3/8/2023 7:37 PM, RonO wrote:It looks like I will have to ask for Nyikos to be banned for his
On 3/4/2023 9:09 PM, RonO wrote:
The last episode of the documentary series Frozen Planet II was just >>>>>>> on TV. They had how bad global warming is to the Arctic environment >>>>>>> and wild life. The ending claimed that we could change this and
limit global warming to an additional 1.5 degrees.
Species like penguins and polar bears are having a hard time, but it >>>>>>> should have been noted that things were worse during the last warm >>>>>>> period between glaciation. 130,000 years ago temperatures got warmer >>>>>>> than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels >>>>>>> that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian >>>>>>> Ocean and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood >>>>>>> and terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
It seems that what we should be working on is determining how the ice >>>>>>> age species made it through that last environmental catastrophe that >>>>>>> has been occurring around every hundred thousand years for the last >>>>>>> million years. The intervals between warm periods have been getting >>>>>>> longer in the last half million years, and life on earth hasn't been >>>>>>> able to adapt to that very effectively. Most of the ice age
megafauna likely nearly went extinct the last warm period, and even >>>>>>> though their populations came back, the populations were likely not >>>>>>> healthy enough to survive this warm period. No wolly rhino,
mastodons, and mammoths exist anywhere. The giant bears and saber >>>>>>> toothed cats that fed on them didn't make it. Species like polar >>>>>>> bears and penguins may not survive this warm period, and could go the >>>>>>> way of the mammoth.
We likely need to figure out how these species survived the last warm >>>>>>> period that became worse than current conditions. More ice melted >>>>>>> last time and sea levels were as high as they are predicting for this >>>>>>> warm period. In order to maintain viable populations we need to make >>>>>>> those regions that allowed the survival of ice age species available >>>>>>> to these animals. More of their habitat was lost last warm period, >>>>>>> but the existing arctic species found somewhere to survive. We need >>>>>>> to figure out what those survival places were and make them available >>>>>>> to the species that need them.
For the penguin example, it is obvious that the last warm period the >>>>>>> Adele penguins had to find some place else to nest. Finding where >>>>>>> that was and relocating animals is likely the best way to get a large >>>>>>> enough population through this warm period.
The issue with man made global warming is the prediction that was put >>>>>>> out a few years ago that we might skip the next glacial period and >>>>>>> the warm period might last a hundred thousand years longer than usual. >>>>>>>
The warm period is not the normal environment for temperate
latitudes. For the last million years most of the time the temperate >>>>>>> latitudes have had an arctic alpine environment. Arctic species are >>>>>>> adapted to what usually exists. The current environment has them >>>>>>> limited to the icy regions of the world, and their environment has >>>>>>> been rollercoasting for the last couple million years.
Ron Okimoto
I don't want to interact with a lying asshole like Nyikos, but I will >>>>>> put up the supporting evidence for what I had claimed during
discussions on this topic, in order to demonstrate what an asshole >>>>>> Nyikos is. Why wouldn't he look this stuff up for himself instead of >>>>>> being the asshole that he is and making the claims that he made?
Evidence that there were at least two warm periods within the last >>>>>> half million years where more ice melted than has melted at this time >>>>>> in the current warm period.
https://academic.oup.com/zoolinnean/article/186/3/666/5487031?login=false
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20
meters higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and >>>>>> a second one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure >>>>>> 3. I would note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to
occur if we do not curb global warming.
The wiki for ice ages has a graph on temperature and amount of ice. >>>>>> It shows that it got warmer than the current warm period twice in the >>>>>> last 500,000 years. More ice melted 136,000 years ago, and the rail >>>>>> paper claims that sea level was 20 meters higher than today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32795436/
This paper is open access and notes the population decline of wooly >>>>>> rhinos over the past 1 million years after the cold periods got longer >>>>>> than 40,000 years. The same trend was noted in the genomes of wooly >>>>>> mammoths. It wasn't just the ice age arctic and alpine species that >>>>>> were affected by the extension of the cold period. Temperate species >>>>>> such as peacocks, junglefowl and tigers show the same decline in
effective population size over this time period. So the extended cold >>>>>> periods were hard on the temperate species (probably because their >>>>>> habitat was restricted for a longer period of time. The arctic
species population decline was likely due to having a longer time to >>>>>> adapt to the arctic conditions only to have that habitat greatly
reduced for a short, but devestating period of time. The rhinos,
mastadon and mammoth didn't make it through this warm period, but
their decline started a million years ago.
Popular science article on the rhino genome.
https://phys.org/news/2020-08-ancient-genomes-woolly-rhinos-extinct.html >>>>>>
Ron Okimoto
I will note that Nyikos does what he does just to harass me. He
obviously had no interest in this topic. His own projection has him
doing it because he is a sadistic hate filled maniac that thinks that he >>>>> is righting some wrong done to him in the past. Nyikos has always
brought it all onto himself. He has just added to the things that he >>>>> can't deal with in his failed attempts to lie about the past. No one >>>>> should have been subjected to the Nyikosian stupidity and harassment for >>>>> over a decade. It should be apparent that Nyikos only posted the junk >>>>> to harass me because he wasn't interested in the topic enough to read >>>>> the cited paper in order to figure out what it actually supported.
This behavior should end. I do not stalk Nyikos around TO, and Nyikos >>>>> should not be allowed to continue to do what he does.
Nyikios' last attempt at harassment that should have been his last for >>>>> any sane individual.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ >>>>>
This type of stupidity due to Nyikosian harassment should never take >>>>> place, but it just never ends.
I didn't expect Nyikos to address these two points because he was just >>>>> plain wrong about them, and his nit picking doesn't do much to change >>>>> that fact. I don't care about his issues with other posters. His first >>>>> attempted response was pathetic, and he did try again. He did nothing >>>>> to counter the fact that there were at least two warm interglacial
periods before the current one where the temperatures were higher and >>>>> more ice melted. His stupid flailing about being wrong and the fact
that he should have been able to figure it out for himself is just
stupid. He even acknowledges that the Wiki supports me, but he makes >>>>> some stupid comment about the inversion of the graph that simply doesn't >>>>> matter at all. His stupid comments about the rail extinction example is >>>>> just nonsense. I used that paper to demonstrate that during the last >>>>> interglacial sea levels were 20 meters higher then they are today, and >>>>> that more ice melted in the last interglacial. The Nyikosian denial
that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong >>>>> about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted.
For the rhino example the population decline did start more than a
million years ago, but so what? It still happened. Two interglacials >>>>> ago the temperatures did not get as warm as the current period, and the >>>>> species of rhino under discussion and some mammoths did come through >>>>> pretty well and they show an increase in effective population size
during the cold period before the last previous interglacial where
temperatures got higher than they are today and more ice melted than has >>>>> melted currently. If Nyikos had bothered to read the paper for
comprehension he would have understood that the authors admit that there >>>>> was a population crash during the last warm period that is not picked up >>>>> by their effective population size estimates. They cite a wooly mammoth >>>>> paper as an example of the population crash that they expected to
happen. They try to explain the long tail where the effective
population size estimates stay high before bottoming out to a low long >>>>> after the population had recovered during the last cold period. Their >>>>> explanation was that during the high temperature and low ice period
multiple small isolated populations survived the bottleneck, and when >>>>> they could expand out into more territory they interbred. They thought >>>>> that males moving between populations could accomplish a population
mixing that would reestablish genetic diversity that had been preserved >>>>> in the small isolated populations. In our paper that noted the decline >>>>> in genetic diversity of domestic chickens we stated the obvious
conclusion that we could recreate a population with nearly all of the >>>>> genetic diversity domestic chickens started with by crossing the extant >>>>> domestic breeds together. Each population had lost diversity over time >>>>> even as their total population increased because of how they were
propagated as small flocks in isolated villages, but each population had >>>>> retained a different bit of the original genetic variation, and if
combined would restore a lot of the genetic variation that domestic
chickens started with.
All this means is that the paper acknowledged that there had been a
severe population crash during the last interglacial that was not picked >>>>> up by their method of calculating effective population size. They also >>>>> admit that they can't explain why their estimate of effective population >>>>> size continues to decline for tens of thousands of years after the
population had likely regained a stable size of around 100,000 breeding >>>>> females. This decline is likely just a reflection of the population
crash that occurred before the population recovery because you can remix >>>>> the genetic variation, but as soon as you start crossing relatives you >>>>> are going to start loosing the genetic variation. For some reason their >>>>> methods do not pick up the population crash that they expected to
happen, and instead shows a gradual decline even after the bottle neck >>>>> was resolved and a large stable population was being maintained for 10s >>>>> of thousands of years during this period of decline. They could not
explain the long decline in effective population size and the final low >>>>> that did not reflect the larger population size estimate obtained by >>>>> other means. For some reason the population bottleneck during the
previous interglacial took a long time to manifest in the rhino genome, >>>>> and did not show a recovery until after the glacial maximum when the >>>>> population had actually recovered just a few thousand years after the >>>>> last warm period ended. They can't explain why the effective population >>>>> estimate continued to decline and bottomed out over a period when other >>>>> estimates indicated that a stable population of around 100,000 breeding >>>>> females was reestablished soon after the last warm period and this
population was relatively stable over a period of 100,000 years.
So the Nyikosian response is the usual Nyikosian null response. What >>>>> Nyikos was wrong about, he is still wrong about. Nit picking and
outright stupidity will not support the harassment.
This harassment should stop. The only reason to continue the harassment >>>>> is the insane behavior of Nyikos. For whatever reason he has never been >>>>> able to deal with the fact that he has been wrong about multiple things >>>>> like the present examples. All the craziness with the ID scam was due >>>>> to Nyikos' first mistake when he was wrong about the Discovery
Institute's involvement in the bait and switch that has been going on >>>>> for over 20 years. He blames me for his bumbling stupidity and
dishonesty since. It is just nuts because he wouldn't have as much of >>>>> his assoholic behavior to blame me for if he had never started his
harassment due to simply being shown to be wrong about something.
I maintain as little interaction with the lying asshole as is possible, >>>>> and if the baseless harassment continues Nyikos should be banned from >>>>> TO. I had enjoyed a fairly long break from the assoholic behavior
during the recent Nykosian vacation, and that break should be extended >>>>> indefinitely. If Nyikos can't control his assoholic behavior, he should >>>>> be stopped from doing it. Nyikos didn't care if he was wrong about the >>>>> junk, it was just harassment. He obviously didn't care enough about
being wrong to do what needed to be done in order to determine that he >>>>> was wrong, nor understand the paper that was used to counter his denial. >>>>> Just use the link and go back to the last such episode to determine
how tragically sad Nyikos has always been.
The last such Nykosian episode:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ >>>>>
I will likely be referring to this post to make my case in the future if >>>>> this harassment continues.
Ron Okimoto
obnoxious harassing behavior. If Nyikos wants to defend himself he
should start looking for any harassing posts that had a positive outcome >>>> for him. There may be one or two, but my guess is that 99.9 percent of >>>> Nyikos' posts to me have contained senseless harassing material. All
his lies about the past never worked out for him, so around 80 to 90% of >>>> his harassing posts over the last decade have been a dead loss for
Nyikos. It is apparent that it has been pretty much all harassment
because around a year after Nyikos' return; a year of his senseless
stupidity and lies about the Discovery Institute and the creationist ID >>>> scam, Nyikos claimed that he had knocked me down 3 times. He claimed
that he would post the knockdowns within a couple weeks of his posting >>>> his initial knockdown and claims of having two more to post. So even to >>>> Nyikos his efforts were just harassment and trying to knock me down. The >>>> sad thing is that Nyikos could not find anything in that years worth of >>>> harassing posts that he could list as a win for him. He had always just >>>> obfuscated the issue, run and or lied to his limit for lying. Nyikos
kept claiming that the knockdowns were still coming for around 3 years, >>>> and never produced anything that could be considered positive for
Nyikos. The claims ended with the Nyikosian claim that he had delivered >>>> the third knockdown, but Nyikos would not provide a link nor tell me
where the post was supposed to be. It had been 3 additional years of
assoholic harassing posts, and they all turned out like the current
example. Nyikos never got any better as the harassment has continued
for over a decade. If Nyikos wants to claim that it hasn't been over a >>>> decade of assoholic harassment, he should be able to produce hundreds of >>>> posts where he had a legitimate beef. This example and the previous
example (already linked to in previous posts) obviously do not qualify. >>>> Someone might think that even a bumbling assoholic harasser would have >>>> multiple examples where his harassment was justified in some legitimate >>>> way, but Nyikos has never cared if he had any legitimate reason to
harass me, and his degenerate record demonstrates that. Over a decade
of harassment, and what does Nyikos have to show for it?
Nyikos should be required to produce any posts that Nyikos made to
harass me for over a decade that he thinks were legitimate and had a
positive outcome for the loser. If he ever had any legitimate reasons
for doing what he has done he should have hundreds of examples, but he >>>> couldn't come up with any for the first 4 years of his harassment, and I >>>> don't recall any examples since. Even if Nyikos could scrounge up 1 or >>>> 2 examples (I doubt it) how sad would that be for over a decade of
senseless harassment?
This post will likely be one of them that will be submitted to Grieg in >>>> the request to ban Nyikos from TO. It doesn't look like Nyikos is able >>>> to stop himself from doing what he has done since he came back to TO.
Over a decade of this type of stupid senseless harassment should be
enough for any sadistic asshole like Nyikos. I do not stalk Nyikos
around TO. It is Nyikos that nearly always has to post his harassing
posts to me. There is no reason for it to continue. If Nyikos can't
control his assoholic tendencies he should be made to do so. It has
been really sad that it takes putting Nyikos down like the rabid dog
that he is in no uncertain terms until he reaches his limit for lying
about the stupid junk that he posts. The harassment for over a decade
is due to Nyikos being wrong about something in, probably, the first
post he posted after his return. Nyikos had a, likely involuntary,
absence, from TO for nearly a decade, and made his return Dec. 2010.
For Nyikosian reasons he has had to lie about that post in anyway that >>>> he can, and has had to maintain his harassment due to just being wrong >>>> about something. It never gets any better because Nyikos just generates >>>> more that he has to lie about in his sadistic endeavor. This incessant >>>> harassment has never worked out well for Nyikos because there was never >>>> any legitimate reason for the harassment to start.
The lies and nonsensical harrassment continues, and if it doesn't stop I >>>> will be forced to formally get Grieg into this and start the process for >>>> getting Nyikos removed from TO. I do not harass Nyikos, and there is no >>>> sane reason for Nyikos to continue his sadistic behavior. He knows that >>>> he is a sadistic maniac because that is what he projects onto me when I >>>> am being the victim of his abuse. Over a decade of this type of
stupidity should be long enough for anyone. Nyikos obviously didn't
care enough about the current topic to understand what he was harassing >>>> me about, and now just has to lie about the effort to continue his
harassment. Enough is enough, and Nyikos should be banned if he can't
restrain himself.
I have repeatedly told the asshole that I do not care about his issues >>>> with other posters. Why would anyone? Still in his last response he
continues to whine about other posters even after being informed as to >>>> how assoholic such behavior is. It is just insane and it should stop.
Anyone just has to look at other posters responding to the junk Nyikos >>>> writes about them in his posts that are supposedly addressing my posts. >>>> I do not even read most of what Nyikos posts on TO, so he has free reign >>>> to lie about me to other posters, but by this time my guess is that
there aren't very many TO posters that do not understand what a lying
asshole Nyikos has always been. There is no sane reason for Nyikos to
harass me as he continues to do.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/SX7EUqzOAAAJ
Nyikos snips and runs from what he can't deal with, and that is obvious >>>> in the above link. He then lies about one of the issues that he
harassed me about. It is a stupid lie, and I can't figure out why
anyone would think that, that type of response was valid.
Nyikos initial harassing claims:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/7z8nZ0LbAgAJ
QUOTE:
130,000 years ago temperatures got warmerIf you have a source for this, did it actually cite studies done on
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels >>>>> that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian Ocean >>>>> and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood and
terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
those islands,
or did it merely deduce these things from the average global sea level rise?
END QUOTE:
Nyikos obviously is harassing me about citations for temperature, more >>>> ice melting and sea levels rising higher than they are now. He should
have countered with references claiming otherwise, but he would have
found collaborating evidence if he had bothered to check things out himself.
Nyikos' bogus harassing response after getting reference:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/5ykTUUo6BgAJ
QUOTE:
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20 meters >>>>> higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and a second >>>>> one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure 3. I would >>>>> note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to occur if we do >>>>> not curb global warming.Ron O talks about little birds instead of megafauna, leaving his earlier >>>> assertion high and dry.
END QUOTE:
Nyikos' response to having his stupidity noted:
Nyikos obviously posted this harassement with no regard to wanting to
understand much of what he was harassing me about.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/SX7EUqzOAAAJ\ >>>>
QUOTE:
The Nyikosian denialI never said anything about either of those two topics. Ron O is in the >>>> grip of what is, at best, a bunch of false recollections.
that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong >>>>> about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted.
END QUOTE:
Nyikos just lies, and then claims that it is my false recollection that >>>> is the issue. Nyikos obviously is not interested in this topic enough
to track his own harassing claims.
If this type of harassment continues I will ask for Nyikos to be banned >>>> from TO. The last instance should have been enough for anyone, but not >>>> for an assoholic poster like Nyikos.
The link below is the last example that Nyikos snipped out of his
responses. It occurred just before Nyikos took his recent 2 month
vacation. This current harassment just has fewer outright lies in it.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ
If Nyikos can't control himself he should be banned from TO. I do not
follow Nyikos around TO and harass the asshole, and there is no reason >>>> for him to harass anyone. Elsewhere Nyikos is comparing himself to
Kleinman. Kleinman was just about an order of magnitude worse than
Nyikos. Klienman started his harassment because he was wrong about
something stupid. He claimed that he could use the product rule
(multiply the two individual probabilities to calculate the
probabilities of both occurring in the same cell) for two mutations
occurring in the same cell lineage, but his example was that they were >>>> occurring in different generations. He was obviously wrong and his own >>>> reference told him that the product rule had issues when the events were >>>> temporally separated. I gave him the Behe and Snokes reference, and how >>>> they dealt with the issue of two mutations occurring in the same cell
lineage, but Kleinman would not accept that he was wrong, and started
lying about me, and claiming that I didn't know the math. Kleinman
would post to me and tell the same lies in multiple posts in multiple
threads nearly every day for around a year. It didn't matter what the
topic of the thread was, the same harassing claims would be made over
and over. Just a few weeks should have been enough, but Kleinman could >>>> not stop himself, and I asked that he be banned.
Nyikos is the same way except Nyikos has been less insane about his
harassing efforts. Nyikos would post to me on any topic and lie about
the past. It was insane. I had to create "REPOSTS" that contained all
the evidence that Nyikos was lying about the past, and I reposted them >>>> when he started to lie about the past again. That should have ended a
decade ago with his "Dirty Debating Thread" that Nyikos had started, in >>>> order to harass me. I had already stopped reading most of what Nyikos
posted on TO and just basically dealt with what he posted to me. Nyikos >>>> had to come to me and tell me that I had to address the stupid lies that >>>> he was posting in the dirty debating thread. Nyikos has been lying
about the issues he lied about in that thread for over a decade. His
insane last effort made him quit harassing me about those issues (it has >>>> been around half a year, and Nyikos could start back up at anytime, but >>>> this has been the longest break in his harassment about those issues
since Nyikos returned in Dec 2010) but Nyikos can't give up on the
insane harassment.
This is the thread that has ended the Nyikosian harassment about the
Dirty debating thread from back in Aug 2022. Since then Nyikos stopped >>>> incessantly lying about these issues, but he decided to create new
stupidity to harass me about.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/0GJ7i2VKEbg/m/8VgLI1iOAAAJ
Really, it took Nyikos over a decade to stop harassing me about those
issues. He may start up again, but his previous longest break that I
recall was around 3 months. Nyikos has routinely reached his limit for >>>> lying about the same thing and will give it up for a month or two, but >>>> only restarts lying about the past once he thinks that it is OK to do so >>>> again. He has no reason to keep harassing me.
The harassment about the dirty debating issues should have ended long
before the later part of last year. What consistently happens is that
Nyikos resorts to broadening the topics that he has to lie about. He
has always known that he was wrong about the involvement of the ID perps >>>> in the bait and switch, and all of the dirty debating nonsense
accumulated due to his propensity to lie about other issues in order to >>>> harass me about his being wrong about something as stupid as the ID
perps running the teach ID scam. He got shut down hard last August and >>>> has been accumulating more stupidity to harass me about since. The
harassment should have never started. Kleinman may have been an order of >>>> magnitude worse than Nyikos in terms of frequency, but Nyikos has been >>>> at it for over a decade. Enough is enough.
Probably the saddest thing about the Nykosian harassment over the years >>>> is that Nyikos is always shown to be the lying asshole. He has behaved >>>> this way for over a decade (since Dec 2010) and I do not recall anything >>>> that Nyikos has tried to harass me with ever accomplishing anything
positive for Nyikos. This is due to the fact that Nyikos can't help
himself and usually makes up the issue that he ends up lying about.
Every single one of his posts involving the teach ID scam and the ID
perp involvement have been a dead loss for Nyikos. I really can't
recall any instance where Nyikos was not shown to be the lying asshole >>>> that he is. In his projection of the subject he has claimed that he
does it because he is a hate filled sadistic maniac that has to try to >>>> right some imaginary wrong done to him. Nyikos should make an effort to >>>> come up with any legitimate "knockdown" instances in order to defend his >>>> obnoxious behavior to Grieg. Nyikos could not put up any in the first 4 >>>> years of his harassment, and I do not recall any since.
As noted above, a decade ago during the Dirty Debating thread fiasco
Nyikos started another thread to harass me claiming that he was going to >>>> put up three instances where he had knocked me down in the boxing ring. >>>> His first alleged knockdown blew up in his face because he made up the >>>> issue. Things did not occur the way that he had claimed. For weeks he
ran from what he had done and even lied about me not posting a rebuttal >>>> to the thread. Nyikos couldn't identify any other possible knockdown
events that had ever happened, and even though he claimed that he would >>>> produce the other two knockdowns in a week or two, years passed. His
stated goal was to achieve a technical knockout, but no knockdowns
existed. His second alleged knockdown was the event where he projected >>>> his sadistic behavior onto me. Nyikos had started a side thread and
changed the title claiming that I had done something funny. He had
obviously started the side thread to make fun of me, and he posted
multiple posts claiming that what I had done was really funny but would >>>> not deliver the punch line. He seemed to be savoring every moment of
the extended trial, but when he finally produced what was "so funny", I >>>> only had to point out that Google didn't work that way, so I could not >>>> have been guilty of doing anything "funny". Nyikos went into his
sadistic hate filled rage, as if I had been the one trying to make fun >>>> of him, and that was supposed to be his second knockdown. Around 3
years would pass before Nyikos informed me that he had posted the third >>>> knockdown, but he wouldn't tell me where or give me a link. Nyikos
never provided any evidence that the third knockdown ever existed. The >>>> whole 3 additional years of harassment had come to naught for Nyikos, he >>>> could never come up with an instance where his harassment had actually >>>> been about anything real for those 3 years and before. His harassment
has been like that for over a decade, and that is long enough.
If Nyikos wants to continue his harassment he should reflect on the fact >>>> of how dismal his efforts have been for him. These posts are what will
On 3/26/2023 6:22 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 6:50:39 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/19/2023 4:23 PM, RonO wrote:
On 3/8/2023 7:37 PM, RonO wrote:It looks like I will have to ask for Nyikos to be banned for his
On 3/4/2023 9:09 PM, RonO wrote:
The last episode of the documentary series Frozen Planet II was just >>>>> on TV. They had how bad global warming is to the Arctic environment >>>>> and wild life. The ending claimed that we could change this and
limit global warming to an additional 1.5 degrees.
Species like penguins and polar bears are having a hard time, but it >>>>> should have been noted that things were worse during the last warm >>>>> period between glaciation. 130,000 years ago temperatures got warmer >>>>> than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels >>>>> that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian
Ocean and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood >>>>> and terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
It seems that what we should be working on is determining how the ice >>>>> age species made it through that last environmental catastrophe that >>>>> has been occurring around every hundred thousand years for the last >>>>> million years. The intervals between warm periods have been getting >>>>> longer in the last half million years, and life on earth hasn't been >>>>> able to adapt to that very effectively. Most of the ice age
megafauna likely nearly went extinct the last warm period, and even >>>>> though their populations came back, the populations were likely not >>>>> healthy enough to survive this warm period. No wolly rhino,
mastodons, and mammoths exist anywhere. The giant bears and saber >>>>> toothed cats that fed on them didn't make it. Species like polar
bears and penguins may not survive this warm period, and could go the >>>>> way of the mammoth.
We likely need to figure out how these species survived the last warm >>>>> period that became worse than current conditions. More ice melted >>>>> last time and sea levels were as high as they are predicting for this >>>>> warm period. In order to maintain viable populations we need to make >>>>> those regions that allowed the survival of ice age species available >>>>> to these animals. More of their habitat was lost last warm period, >>>>> but the existing arctic species found somewhere to survive. We need >>>>> to figure out what those survival places were and make them available >>>>> to the species that need them.
For the penguin example, it is obvious that the last warm period the >>>>> Adele penguins had to find some place else to nest. Finding where >>>>> that was and relocating animals is likely the best way to get a large >>>>> enough population through this warm period.
The issue with man made global warming is the prediction that was put >>>>> out a few years ago that we might skip the next glacial period and >>>>> the warm period might last a hundred thousand years longer than usual. >>>>>
The warm period is not the normal environment for temperate
latitudes. For the last million years most of the time the temperate >>>>> latitudes have had an arctic alpine environment. Arctic species are >>>>> adapted to what usually exists. The current environment has them
limited to the icy regions of the world, and their environment has >>>>> been rollercoasting for the last couple million years.
Ron Okimoto
I don't want to interact with a lying asshole like Nyikos, but I will >>>> put up the supporting evidence for what I had claimed during
discussions on this topic, in order to demonstrate what an asshole
Nyikos is. Why wouldn't he look this stuff up for himself instead of >>>> being the asshole that he is and making the claims that he made?
Evidence that there were at least two warm periods within the last
half million years where more ice melted than has melted at this time >>>> in the current warm period.
https://academic.oup.com/zoolinnean/article/186/3/666/5487031?login=false
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20
meters higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and >>>> a second one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure >>>> 3. I would note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to
occur if we do not curb global warming.
The wiki for ice ages has a graph on temperature and amount of ice. >>>> It shows that it got warmer than the current warm period twice in the >>>> last 500,000 years. More ice melted 136,000 years ago, and the rail >>>> paper claims that sea level was 20 meters higher than today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32795436/
This paper is open access and notes the population decline of wooly >>>> rhinos over the past 1 million years after the cold periods got longer >>>> than 40,000 years. The same trend was noted in the genomes of wooly >>>> mammoths. It wasn't just the ice age arctic and alpine species that >>>> were affected by the extension of the cold period. Temperate species >>>> such as peacocks, junglefowl and tigers show the same decline in
effective population size over this time period. So the extended cold >>>> periods were hard on the temperate species (probably because their
habitat was restricted for a longer period of time. The arctic
species population decline was likely due to having a longer time to >>>> adapt to the arctic conditions only to have that habitat greatly
reduced for a short, but devestating period of time. The rhinos,
mastadon and mammoth didn't make it through this warm period, but
their decline started a million years ago.
Popular science article on the rhino genome.
https://phys.org/news/2020-08-ancient-genomes-woolly-rhinos-extinct.html
Ron Okimoto
I will note that Nyikos does what he does just to harass me. He
obviously had no interest in this topic. His own projection has him
doing it because he is a sadistic hate filled maniac that thinks that he >>> is righting some wrong done to him in the past. Nyikos has always
brought it all onto himself. He has just added to the things that he
can't deal with in his failed attempts to lie about the past. No one
should have been subjected to the Nyikosian stupidity and harassment for >>> over a decade. It should be apparent that Nyikos only posted the junk >>> to harass me because he wasn't interested in the topic enough to read >>> the cited paper in order to figure out what it actually supported.
This behavior should end. I do not stalk Nyikos around TO, and Nyikos >>> should not be allowed to continue to do what he does.
Nyikios' last attempt at harassment that should have been his last for >>> any sane individual.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ >>>
This type of stupidity due to Nyikosian harassment should never take
place, but it just never ends.
I didn't expect Nyikos to address these two points because he was just >>> plain wrong about them, and his nit picking doesn't do much to change >>> that fact. I don't care about his issues with other posters. His first >>> attempted response was pathetic, and he did try again. He did nothing >>> to counter the fact that there were at least two warm interglacial
periods before the current one where the temperatures were higher and >>> more ice melted. His stupid flailing about being wrong and the fact
that he should have been able to figure it out for himself is just
stupid. He even acknowledges that the Wiki supports me, but he makes
some stupid comment about the inversion of the graph that simply doesn't >>> matter at all. His stupid comments about the rail extinction example is >>> just nonsense. I used that paper to demonstrate that during the last
interglacial sea levels were 20 meters higher then they are today, and >>> that more ice melted in the last interglacial. The Nyikosian denial
that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong >>> about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted.
For the rhino example the population decline did start more than a
million years ago, but so what? It still happened. Two interglacials
ago the temperatures did not get as warm as the current period, and the >>> species of rhino under discussion and some mammoths did come through
pretty well and they show an increase in effective population size
during the cold period before the last previous interglacial where
temperatures got higher than they are today and more ice melted than has >>> melted currently. If Nyikos had bothered to read the paper for
comprehension he would have understood that the authors admit that there >>> was a population crash during the last warm period that is not picked up >>> by their effective population size estimates. They cite a wooly mammoth >>> paper as an example of the population crash that they expected to
happen. They try to explain the long tail where the effective
population size estimates stay high before bottoming out to a low long >>> after the population had recovered during the last cold period. Their >>> explanation was that during the high temperature and low ice period
multiple small isolated populations survived the bottleneck, and when >>> they could expand out into more territory they interbred. They thought >>> that males moving between populations could accomplish a population
mixing that would reestablish genetic diversity that had been preserved >>> in the small isolated populations. In our paper that noted the decline >>> in genetic diversity of domestic chickens we stated the obvious
conclusion that we could recreate a population with nearly all of the >>> genetic diversity domestic chickens started with by crossing the extant >>> domestic breeds together. Each population had lost diversity over time >>> even as their total population increased because of how they were
propagated as small flocks in isolated villages, but each population had >>> retained a different bit of the original genetic variation, and if
combined would restore a lot of the genetic variation that domestic
chickens started with.
All this means is that the paper acknowledged that there had been a
severe population crash during the last interglacial that was not picked >>> up by their method of calculating effective population size. They also >>> admit that they can't explain why their estimate of effective population >>> size continues to decline for tens of thousands of years after the
population had likely regained a stable size of around 100,000 breeding >>> females. This decline is likely just a reflection of the population
crash that occurred before the population recovery because you can remix >>> the genetic variation, but as soon as you start crossing relatives you >>> are going to start loosing the genetic variation. For some reason their >>> methods do not pick up the population crash that they expected to
happen, and instead shows a gradual decline even after the bottle neck >>> was resolved and a large stable population was being maintained for 10s >>> of thousands of years during this period of decline. They could not
explain the long decline in effective population size and the final low >>> that did not reflect the larger population size estimate obtained by
other means. For some reason the population bottleneck during the
previous interglacial took a long time to manifest in the rhino genome, >>> and did not show a recovery until after the glacial maximum when the
population had actually recovered just a few thousand years after the >>> last warm period ended. They can't explain why the effective population >>> estimate continued to decline and bottomed out over a period when other >>> estimates indicated that a stable population of around 100,000 breeding >>> females was reestablished soon after the last warm period and this
population was relatively stable over a period of 100,000 years.
So the Nyikosian response is the usual Nyikosian null response. What
Nyikos was wrong about, he is still wrong about. Nit picking and
outright stupidity will not support the harassment.
This harassment should stop. The only reason to continue the harassment >>> is the insane behavior of Nyikos. For whatever reason he has never been >>> able to deal with the fact that he has been wrong about multiple things >>> like the present examples. All the craziness with the ID scam was due >>> to Nyikos' first mistake when he was wrong about the Discovery
Institute's involvement in the bait and switch that has been going on >>> for over 20 years. He blames me for his bumbling stupidity and
dishonesty since. It is just nuts because he wouldn't have as much of >>> his assoholic behavior to blame me for if he had never started his
harassment due to simply being shown to be wrong about something.
I maintain as little interaction with the lying asshole as is possible, >>> and if the baseless harassment continues Nyikos should be banned from >>> TO. I had enjoyed a fairly long break from the assoholic behavior
during the recent Nykosian vacation, and that break should be extended >>> indefinitely. If Nyikos can't control his assoholic behavior, he should >>> be stopped from doing it. Nyikos didn't care if he was wrong about the >>> junk, it was just harassment. He obviously didn't care enough about
being wrong to do what needed to be done in order to determine that he >>> was wrong, nor understand the paper that was used to counter his denial. >>> Just use the link and go back to the last such episode to determine
how tragically sad Nyikos has always been.
The last such Nykosian episode:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ >>>
I will likely be referring to this post to make my case in the future if >>> this harassment continues.
Ron Okimoto
obnoxious harassing behavior. If Nyikos wants to defend himself he
should start looking for any harassing posts that had a positive outcome >> for him. There may be one or two, but my guess is that 99.9 percent of
Nyikos' posts to me have contained senseless harassing material. All
his lies about the past never worked out for him, so around 80 to 90% of >> his harassing posts over the last decade have been a dead loss for
Nyikos. It is apparent that it has been pretty much all harassment
because around a year after Nyikos' return; a year of his senseless
stupidity and lies about the Discovery Institute and the creationist ID >> scam, Nyikos claimed that he had knocked me down 3 times. He claimed
that he would post the knockdowns within a couple weeks of his posting
his initial knockdown and claims of having two more to post. So even to >> Nyikos his efforts were just harassment and trying to knock me down. The >> sad thing is that Nyikos could not find anything in that years worth of >> harassing posts that he could list as a win for him. He had always just >> obfuscated the issue, run and or lied to his limit for lying. Nyikos
kept claiming that the knockdowns were still coming for around 3 years, >> and never produced anything that could be considered positive for
Nyikos. The claims ended with the Nyikosian claim that he had delivered >> the third knockdown, but Nyikos would not provide a link nor tell me
where the post was supposed to be. It had been 3 additional years of
assoholic harassing posts, and they all turned out like the current
example. Nyikos never got any better as the harassment has continued
for over a decade. If Nyikos wants to claim that it hasn't been over a
decade of assoholic harassment, he should be able to produce hundreds of >> posts where he had a legitimate beef. This example and the previous
example (already linked to in previous posts) obviously do not qualify. >> Someone might think that even a bumbling assoholic harasser would have
multiple examples where his harassment was justified in some legitimate >> way, but Nyikos has never cared if he had any legitimate reason to
harass me, and his degenerate record demonstrates that. Over a decade
of harassment, and what does Nyikos have to show for it?
Nyikos should be required to produce any posts that Nyikos made to
harass me for over a decade that he thinks were legitimate and had a
positive outcome for the loser. If he ever had any legitimate reasons
for doing what he has done he should have hundreds of examples, but he
couldn't come up with any for the first 4 years of his harassment, and I >> don't recall any examples since. Even if Nyikos could scrounge up 1 or
2 examples (I doubt it) how sad would that be for over a decade of
senseless harassment?
This post will likely be one of them that will be submitted to Grieg in >> the request to ban Nyikos from TO. It doesn't look like Nyikos is able
to stop himself from doing what he has done since he came back to TO.
Over a decade of this type of stupid senseless harassment should be
enough for any sadistic asshole like Nyikos. I do not stalk Nyikos
around TO. It is Nyikos that nearly always has to post his harassing
posts to me. There is no reason for it to continue. If Nyikos can't
control his assoholic tendencies he should be made to do so. It has
been really sad that it takes putting Nyikos down like the rabid dog
that he is in no uncertain terms until he reaches his limit for lying
about the stupid junk that he posts. The harassment for over a decade
is due to Nyikos being wrong about something in, probably, the first
post he posted after his return. Nyikos had a, likely involuntary,
absence, from TO for nearly a decade, and made his return Dec. 2010.
For Nyikosian reasons he has had to lie about that post in anyway that
he can, and has had to maintain his harassment due to just being wrong
about something. It never gets any better because Nyikos just generates >> more that he has to lie about in his sadistic endeavor. This incessant
harassment has never worked out well for Nyikos because there was never >> any legitimate reason for the harassment to start.
The lies and nonsensical harrassment continues, and if it doesn't stop I >> will be forced to formally get Grieg into this and start the process for >> getting Nyikos removed from TO. I do not harass Nyikos, and there is no >> sane reason for Nyikos to continue his sadistic behavior. He knows that >> he is a sadistic maniac because that is what he projects onto me when I >> am being the victim of his abuse. Over a decade of this type of
stupidity should be long enough for anyone. Nyikos obviously didn't
care enough about the current topic to understand what he was harassing >> me about, and now just has to lie about the effort to continue his
harassment. Enough is enough, and Nyikos should be banned if he can't
restrain himself.
I have repeatedly told the asshole that I do not care about his issues
with other posters. Why would anyone? Still in his last response he
continues to whine about other posters even after being informed as to
how assoholic such behavior is. It is just insane and it should stop.
Anyone just has to look at other posters responding to the junk Nyikos
writes about them in his posts that are supposedly addressing my posts. >> I do not even read most of what Nyikos posts on TO, so he has free reign >> to lie about me to other posters, but by this time my guess is that
there aren't very many TO posters that do not understand what a lying
asshole Nyikos has always been. There is no sane reason for Nyikos to
harass me as he continues to do.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/SX7EUqzOAAAJ
Nyikos snips and runs from what he can't deal with, and that is obvious >> in the above link. He then lies about one of the issues that he
harassed me about. It is a stupid lie, and I can't figure out why
anyone would think that, that type of response was valid.
Nyikos initial harassing claims:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/7z8nZ0LbAgAJ
QUOTE:
130,000 years ago temperatures got warmerIf you have a source for this, did it actually cite studies done on
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels
that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian Ocean >>> and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood and
terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
those islands,
or did it merely deduce these things from the average global sea level rise?
END QUOTE:
Nyikos obviously is harassing me about citations for temperature, more
ice melting and sea levels rising higher than they are now. He should
have countered with references claiming otherwise, but he would have
found collaborating evidence if he had bothered to check things out himself.
Nyikos' bogus harassing response after getting reference:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/5ykTUUo6BgAJ
QUOTE:
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20 meters >>> higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and a second >>> one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure 3. I would >>> note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to occur if we do >>> not curb global warming.Ron O talks about little birds instead of megafauna, leaving his earlier >> assertion high and dry.
END QUOTE:
Nyikos' response to having his stupidity noted:
Nyikos obviously posted this harassement with no regard to wanting to
understand much of what he was harassing me about.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/SX7EUqzOAAAJ\
QUOTE:
The Nyikosian denialI never said anything about either of those two topics. Ron O is in the >> grip of what is, at best, a bunch of false recollections.
that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong >>> about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted.
END QUOTE:
Nyikos just lies, and then claims that it is my false recollection that >> is the issue. Nyikos obviously is not interested in this topic enough
to track his own harassing claims.
If this type of harassment continues I will ask for Nyikos to be banned >> from TO. The last instance should have been enough for anyone, but not
for an assoholic poster like Nyikos.
The link below is the last example that Nyikos snipped out of his
responses. It occurred just before Nyikos took his recent 2 month
vacation. This current harassment just has fewer outright lies in it.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ
If Nyikos can't control himself he should be banned from TO. I do not
follow Nyikos around TO and harass the asshole, and there is no reason
for him to harass anyone. Elsewhere Nyikos is comparing himself to
Kleinman. Kleinman was just about an order of magnitude worse than
Nyikos. Klienman started his harassment because he was wrong about
something stupid. He claimed that he could use the product rule
(multiply the two individual probabilities to calculate the
probabilities of both occurring in the same cell) for two mutations
occurring in the same cell lineage, but his example was that they were
occurring in different generations. He was obviously wrong and his own
reference told him that the product rule had issues when the events were >> temporally separated. I gave him the Behe and Snokes reference, and how >> they dealt with the issue of two mutations occurring in the same cell
lineage, but Kleinman would not accept that he was wrong, and started
lying about me, and claiming that I didn't know the math. Kleinman
would post to me and tell the same lies in multiple posts in multiple
threads nearly every day for around a year. It didn't matter what the
topic of the thread was, the same harassing claims would be made over
and over. Just a few weeks should have been enough, but Kleinman could
not stop himself, and I asked that he be banned.
Nyikos is the same way except Nyikos has been less insane about his
harassing efforts. Nyikos would post to me on any topic and lie about
the past. It was insane. I had to create "REPOSTS" that contained all
the evidence that Nyikos was lying about the past, and I reposted them
when he started to lie about the past again. That should have ended a
decade ago with his "Dirty Debating Thread" that Nyikos had started, in >> order to harass me. I had already stopped reading most of what Nyikos
posted on TO and just basically dealt with what he posted to me. Nyikos >> had to come to me and tell me that I had to address the stupid lies that >> he was posting in the dirty debating thread. Nyikos has been lying
about the issues he lied about in that thread for over a decade. His
insane last effort made him quit harassing me about those issues (it has >> been around half a year, and Nyikos could start back up at anytime, but >> this has been the longest break in his harassment about those issues
since Nyikos returned in Dec 2010) but Nyikos can't give up on the
insane harassment.
This is the thread that has ended the Nyikosian harassment about the
Dirty debating thread from back in Aug 2022. Since then Nyikos stopped
incessantly lying about these issues, but he decided to create new
stupidity to harass me about.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/0GJ7i2VKEbg/m/8VgLI1iOAAAJ
Really, it took Nyikos over a decade to stop harassing me about those
issues. He may start up again, but his previous longest break that I
recall was around 3 months. Nyikos has routinely reached his limit for
lying about the same thing and will give it up for a month or two, but
only restarts lying about the past once he thinks that it is OK to do so >> again. He has no reason to keep harassing me.
The harassment about the dirty debating issues should have ended long
before the later part of last year. What consistently happens is that
Nyikos resorts to broadening the topics that he has to lie about. He
has always known that he was wrong about the involvement of the ID perps >> in the bait and switch, and all of the dirty debating nonsense
accumulated due to his propensity to lie about other issues in order to >> harass me about his being wrong about something as stupid as the ID
perps running the teach ID scam. He got shut down hard last August and
has been accumulating more stupidity to harass me about since. The
harassment should have never started. Kleinman may have been an order of >> magnitude worse than Nyikos in terms of frequency, but Nyikos has been
at it for over a decade. Enough is enough.
Probably the saddest thing about the Nykosian harassment over the years >> is that Nyikos is always shown to be the lying asshole. He has behaved
this way for over a decade (since Dec 2010) and I do not recall anything >> that Nyikos has tried to harass me with ever accomplishing anything
positive for Nyikos. This is due to the fact that Nyikos can't help
himself and usually makes up the issue that he ends up lying about.
Every single one of his posts involving the teach ID scam and the ID
perp involvement have been a dead loss for Nyikos. I really can't
recall any instance where Nyikos was not shown to be the lying asshole
that he is. In his projection of the subject he has claimed that he
does it because he is a hate filled sadistic maniac that has to try to
right some imaginary wrong done to him. Nyikos should make an effort to >> come up with any legitimate "knockdown" instances in order to defend his >> obnoxious behavior to Grieg. Nyikos could not put up any in the first 4 >> years of his harassment, and I do not recall any since.
As noted above, a decade ago during the Dirty Debating thread fiasco
Nyikos started another thread to harass me claiming that he was going to >> put up three instances where he had knocked me down in the boxing ring. >> His first alleged knockdown blew up in his face because he made up the
issue. Things did not occur the way that he had claimed. For weeks he
ran from what he had done and even lied about me not posting a rebuttal >> to the thread. Nyikos couldn't identify any other possible knockdown
events that had ever happened, and even though he claimed that he would >> produce the other two knockdowns in a week or two, years passed. His
stated goal was to achieve a technical knockout, but no knockdowns
existed. His second alleged knockdown was the event where he projected
his sadistic behavior onto me. Nyikos had started a side thread and
changed the title claiming that I had done something funny. He had
obviously started the side thread to make fun of me, and he posted
multiple posts claiming that what I had done was really funny but would >> not deliver the punch line. He seemed to be savoring every moment of
the extended trial, but when he finally produced what was "so funny", I >> only had to point out that Google didn't work that way, so I could not
have been guilty of doing anything "funny". Nyikos went into his
sadistic hate filled rage, as if I had been the one trying to make fun
of him, and that was supposed to be his second knockdown. Around 3
years would pass before Nyikos informed me that he had posted the third >> knockdown, but he wouldn't tell me where or give me a link. Nyikos
never provided any evidence that the third knockdown ever existed. The
On 3/26/2023 8:28 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 8:50:39 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/26/2023 6:22 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 6:50:39 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/19/2023 4:23 PM, RonO wrote:
On 3/8/2023 7:37 PM, RonO wrote:It looks like I will have to ask for Nyikos to be banned for his
On 3/4/2023 9:09 PM, RonO wrote:
The last episode of the documentary series Frozen Planet II was just >>>>>>> on TV. They had how bad global warming is to the Arctic environment >>>>>>> and wild life. The ending claimed that we could change this and >>>>>>> limit global warming to an additional 1.5 degrees.
Species like penguins and polar bears are having a hard time, but it >>>>>>> should have been noted that things were worse during the last warm >>>>>>> period between glaciation. 130,000 years ago temperatures got warmer >>>>>>> than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels >>>>>>> that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian >>>>>>> Ocean and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood >>>>>>> and terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands. >>>>>>>
It seems that what we should be working on is determining how the ice
age species made it through that last environmental catastrophe that >>>>>>> has been occurring around every hundred thousand years for the last >>>>>>> million years. The intervals between warm periods have been getting >>>>>>> longer in the last half million years, and life on earth hasn't been >>>>>>> able to adapt to that very effectively. Most of the ice age
megafauna likely nearly went extinct the last warm period, and even >>>>>>> though their populations came back, the populations were likely not >>>>>>> healthy enough to survive this warm period. No wolly rhino,
mastodons, and mammoths exist anywhere. The giant bears and saber >>>>>>> toothed cats that fed on them didn't make it. Species like polar >>>>>>> bears and penguins may not survive this warm period, and could go the
way of the mammoth.
We likely need to figure out how these species survived the last warm
period that became worse than current conditions. More ice melted >>>>>>> last time and sea levels were as high as they are predicting for this
warm period. In order to maintain viable populations we need to make >>>>>>> those regions that allowed the survival of ice age species available >>>>>>> to these animals. More of their habitat was lost last warm period, >>>>>>> but the existing arctic species found somewhere to survive. We need >>>>>>> to figure out what those survival places were and make them available
to the species that need them.
For the penguin example, it is obvious that the last warm period the >>>>>>> Adele penguins had to find some place else to nest. Finding where >>>>>>> that was and relocating animals is likely the best way to get a large
enough population through this warm period.
The issue with man made global warming is the prediction that was put
out a few years ago that we might skip the next glacial period and >>>>>>> the warm period might last a hundred thousand years longer than usual.
The warm period is not the normal environment for temperate
latitudes. For the last million years most of the time the temperate >>>>>>> latitudes have had an arctic alpine environment. Arctic species are >>>>>>> adapted to what usually exists. The current environment has them >>>>>>> limited to the icy regions of the world, and their environment has >>>>>>> been rollercoasting for the last couple million years.
Ron Okimoto
I don't want to interact with a lying asshole like Nyikos, but I will >>>>>> put up the supporting evidence for what I had claimed during
discussions on this topic, in order to demonstrate what an asshole >>>>>> Nyikos is. Why wouldn't he look this stuff up for himself instead of >>>>>> being the asshole that he is and making the claims that he made? >>>>>>
Evidence that there were at least two warm periods within the last >>>>>> half million years where more ice melted than has melted at this time >>>>>> in the current warm period.
https://academic.oup.com/zoolinnean/article/186/3/666/5487031?login=false
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20 >>>>>> meters higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and >>>>>> a second one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure >>>>>> 3. I would note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to >>>>>> occur if we do not curb global warming.
The wiki for ice ages has a graph on temperature and amount of ice. >>>>>> It shows that it got warmer than the current warm period twice in the >>>>>> last 500,000 years. More ice melted 136,000 years ago, and the rail >>>>>> paper claims that sea level was 20 meters higher than today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32795436/
This paper is open access and notes the population decline of wooly >>>>>> rhinos over the past 1 million years after the cold periods got longer
than 40,000 years. The same trend was noted in the genomes of wooly >>>>>> mammoths. It wasn't just the ice age arctic and alpine species that >>>>>> were affected by the extension of the cold period. Temperate species >>>>>> such as peacocks, junglefowl and tigers show the same decline in >>>>>> effective population size over this time period. So the extended cold >>>>>> periods were hard on the temperate species (probably because their >>>>>> habitat was restricted for a longer period of time. The arctic
species population decline was likely due to having a longer time to >>>>>> adapt to the arctic conditions only to have that habitat greatly >>>>>> reduced for a short, but devestating period of time. The rhinos, >>>>>> mastadon and mammoth didn't make it through this warm period, but >>>>>> their decline started a million years ago.
Popular science article on the rhino genome.
https://phys.org/news/2020-08-ancient-genomes-woolly-rhinos-extinct.html
Ron Okimoto
I will note that Nyikos does what he does just to harass me. He
obviously had no interest in this topic. His own projection has him >>>>> doing it because he is a sadistic hate filled maniac that thinks that he
is righting some wrong done to him in the past. Nyikos has always >>>>> brought it all onto himself. He has just added to the things that he >>>>> can't deal with in his failed attempts to lie about the past. No one >>>>> should have been subjected to the Nyikosian stupidity and harassment for
over a decade. It should be apparent that Nyikos only posted the junk >>>>> to harass me because he wasn't interested in the topic enough to read >>>>> the cited paper in order to figure out what it actually supported. >>>>>
This behavior should end. I do not stalk Nyikos around TO, and Nyikos >>>>> should not be allowed to continue to do what he does.
Nyikios' last attempt at harassment that should have been his last for >>>>> any sane individual.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ >>>>>
This type of stupidity due to Nyikosian harassment should never take >>>>> place, but it just never ends.
I didn't expect Nyikos to address these two points because he was just >>>>> plain wrong about them, and his nit picking doesn't do much to change >>>>> that fact. I don't care about his issues with other posters. His first >>>>> attempted response was pathetic, and he did try again. He did nothing >>>>> to counter the fact that there were at least two warm interglacial >>>>> periods before the current one where the temperatures were higher and >>>>> more ice melted. His stupid flailing about being wrong and the fact >>>>> that he should have been able to figure it out for himself is just >>>>> stupid. He even acknowledges that the Wiki supports me, but he makes >>>>> some stupid comment about the inversion of the graph that simply doesn't
matter at all. His stupid comments about the rail extinction example is
just nonsense. I used that paper to demonstrate that during the last >>>>> interglacial sea levels were 20 meters higher then they are today, and >>>>> that more ice melted in the last interglacial. The Nyikosian denial >>>>> that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong >>>>> about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted.
For the rhino example the population decline did start more than a >>>>> million years ago, but so what? It still happened. Two interglacials >>>>> ago the temperatures did not get as warm as the current period, and the
species of rhino under discussion and some mammoths did come through >>>>> pretty well and they show an increase in effective population size >>>>> during the cold period before the last previous interglacial where >>>>> temperatures got higher than they are today and more ice melted than has
melted currently. If Nyikos had bothered to read the paper for
comprehension he would have understood that the authors admit that there
was a population crash during the last warm period that is not picked up
by their effective population size estimates. They cite a wooly mammoth
paper as an example of the population crash that they expected to >>>>> happen. They try to explain the long tail where the effective
population size estimates stay high before bottoming out to a low long >>>>> after the population had recovered during the last cold period. Their >>>>> explanation was that during the high temperature and low ice period >>>>> multiple small isolated populations survived the bottleneck, and when >>>>> they could expand out into more territory they interbred. They thought >>>>> that males moving between populations could accomplish a population >>>>> mixing that would reestablish genetic diversity that had been preserved
in the small isolated populations. In our paper that noted the decline >>>>> in genetic diversity of domestic chickens we stated the obvious
conclusion that we could recreate a population with nearly all of the >>>>> genetic diversity domestic chickens started with by crossing the extant
domestic breeds together. Each population had lost diversity over time >>>>> even as their total population increased because of how they were >>>>> propagated as small flocks in isolated villages, but each population had
retained a different bit of the original genetic variation, and if >>>>> combined would restore a lot of the genetic variation that domestic >>>>> chickens started with.
All this means is that the paper acknowledged that there had been a >>>>> severe population crash during the last interglacial that was not picked
up by their method of calculating effective population size. They also >>>>> admit that they can't explain why their estimate of effective population
size continues to decline for tens of thousands of years after the >>>>> population had likely regained a stable size of around 100,000 breeding
females. This decline is likely just a reflection of the population >>>>> crash that occurred before the population recovery because you can remix
the genetic variation, but as soon as you start crossing relatives you >>>>> are going to start loosing the genetic variation. For some reason their
methods do not pick up the population crash that they expected to >>>>> happen, and instead shows a gradual decline even after the bottle neck >>>>> was resolved and a large stable population was being maintained for 10s
of thousands of years during this period of decline. They could not >>>>> explain the long decline in effective population size and the final low
that did not reflect the larger population size estimate obtained by >>>>> other means. For some reason the population bottleneck during the >>>>> previous interglacial took a long time to manifest in the rhino genome,
and did not show a recovery until after the glacial maximum when the >>>>> population had actually recovered just a few thousand years after the >>>>> last warm period ended. They can't explain why the effective population
estimate continued to decline and bottomed out over a period when other
estimates indicated that a stable population of around 100,000 breeding
females was reestablished soon after the last warm period and this >>>>> population was relatively stable over a period of 100,000 years.
So the Nyikosian response is the usual Nyikosian null response. What >>>>> Nyikos was wrong about, he is still wrong about. Nit picking and
outright stupidity will not support the harassment.
This harassment should stop. The only reason to continue the harassment
is the insane behavior of Nyikos. For whatever reason he has never been
able to deal with the fact that he has been wrong about multiple things
like the present examples. All the craziness with the ID scam was due >>>>> to Nyikos' first mistake when he was wrong about the Discovery
Institute's involvement in the bait and switch that has been going on >>>>> for over 20 years. He blames me for his bumbling stupidity and
dishonesty since. It is just nuts because he wouldn't have as much of >>>>> his assoholic behavior to blame me for if he had never started his >>>>> harassment due to simply being shown to be wrong about something. >>>>>
I maintain as little interaction with the lying asshole as is possible,
and if the baseless harassment continues Nyikos should be banned from >>>>> TO. I had enjoyed a fairly long break from the assoholic behavior >>>>> during the recent Nykosian vacation, and that break should be extended >>>>> indefinitely. If Nyikos can't control his assoholic behavior, he should
be stopped from doing it. Nyikos didn't care if he was wrong about the >>>>> junk, it was just harassment. He obviously didn't care enough about >>>>> being wrong to do what needed to be done in order to determine that he >>>>> was wrong, nor understand the paper that was used to counter his denial.
Just use the link and go back to the last such episode to determine >>>>> how tragically sad Nyikos has always been.
The last such Nykosian episode:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ >>>>>
I will likely be referring to this post to make my case in the future if
this harassment continues.
Ron Okimoto
obnoxious harassing behavior. If Nyikos wants to defend himself he
should start looking for any harassing posts that had a positive outcome
for him. There may be one or two, but my guess is that 99.9 percent of >>>> Nyikos' posts to me have contained senseless harassing material. All >>>> his lies about the past never worked out for him, so around 80 to 90% of
his harassing posts over the last decade have been a dead loss for
Nyikos. It is apparent that it has been pretty much all harassment
because around a year after Nyikos' return; a year of his senseless >>>> stupidity and lies about the Discovery Institute and the creationist ID >>>> scam, Nyikos claimed that he had knocked me down 3 times. He claimed >>>> that he would post the knockdowns within a couple weeks of his posting >>>> his initial knockdown and claims of having two more to post. So even to >>>> Nyikos his efforts were just harassment and trying to knock me down. The
sad thing is that Nyikos could not find anything in that years worth of >>>> harassing posts that he could list as a win for him. He had always just >>>> obfuscated the issue, run and or lied to his limit for lying. Nyikos >>>> kept claiming that the knockdowns were still coming for around 3 years, >>>> and never produced anything that could be considered positive for
Nyikos. The claims ended with the Nyikosian claim that he had delivered >>>> the third knockdown, but Nyikos would not provide a link nor tell me >>>> where the post was supposed to be. It had been 3 additional years of >>>> assoholic harassing posts, and they all turned out like the current >>>> example. Nyikos never got any better as the harassment has continued >>>> for over a decade. If Nyikos wants to claim that it hasn't been over a >>>> decade of assoholic harassment, he should be able to produce hundreds of
posts where he had a legitimate beef. This example and the previous >>>> example (already linked to in previous posts) obviously do not qualify. >>>> Someone might think that even a bumbling assoholic harasser would have >>>> multiple examples where his harassment was justified in some legitimate >>>> way, but Nyikos has never cared if he had any legitimate reason to
harass me, and his degenerate record demonstrates that. Over a decade >>>> of harassment, and what does Nyikos have to show for it?
Nyikos should be required to produce any posts that Nyikos made to
harass me for over a decade that he thinks were legitimate and had a >>>> positive outcome for the loser. If he ever had any legitimate reasons >>>> for doing what he has done he should have hundreds of examples, but he >>>> couldn't come up with any for the first 4 years of his harassment, and I
don't recall any examples since. Even if Nyikos could scrounge up 1 or >>>> 2 examples (I doubt it) how sad would that be for over a decade of
senseless harassment?
This post will likely be one of them that will be submitted to Grieg in >>>> the request to ban Nyikos from TO. It doesn't look like Nyikos is able >>>> to stop himself from doing what he has done since he came back to TO. >>>> Over a decade of this type of stupid senseless harassment should be >>>> enough for any sadistic asshole like Nyikos. I do not stalk Nyikos
around TO. It is Nyikos that nearly always has to post his harassing >>>> posts to me. There is no reason for it to continue. If Nyikos can't >>>> control his assoholic tendencies he should be made to do so. It has >>>> been really sad that it takes putting Nyikos down like the rabid dog >>>> that he is in no uncertain terms until he reaches his limit for lying >>>> about the stupid junk that he posts. The harassment for over a decade >>>> is due to Nyikos being wrong about something in, probably, the first >>>> post he posted after his return. Nyikos had a, likely involuntary,
absence, from TO for nearly a decade, and made his return Dec. 2010. >>>> For Nyikosian reasons he has had to lie about that post in anyway that >>>> he can, and has had to maintain his harassment due to just being wrong >>>> about something. It never gets any better because Nyikos just generates >>>> more that he has to lie about in his sadistic endeavor. This incessant >>>> harassment has never worked out well for Nyikos because there was never >>>> any legitimate reason for the harassment to start.
The lies and nonsensical harrassment continues, and if it doesn't stop I
will be forced to formally get Grieg into this and start the process for
getting Nyikos removed from TO. I do not harass Nyikos, and there is no >>>> sane reason for Nyikos to continue his sadistic behavior. He knows that >>>> he is a sadistic maniac because that is what he projects onto me when I >>>> am being the victim of his abuse. Over a decade of this type of
stupidity should be long enough for anyone. Nyikos obviously didn't >>>> care enough about the current topic to understand what he was harassing >>>> me about, and now just has to lie about the effort to continue his
harassment. Enough is enough, and Nyikos should be banned if he can't >>>> restrain himself.
I have repeatedly told the asshole that I do not care about his issues >>>> with other posters. Why would anyone? Still in his last response he >>>> continues to whine about other posters even after being informed as to >>>> how assoholic such behavior is. It is just insane and it should stop. >>>> Anyone just has to look at other posters responding to the junk Nyikos >>>> writes about them in his posts that are supposedly addressing my posts. >>>> I do not even read most of what Nyikos posts on TO, so he has free reign
to lie about me to other posters, but by this time my guess is that >>>> there aren't very many TO posters that do not understand what a lying >>>> asshole Nyikos has always been. There is no sane reason for Nyikos to >>>> harass me as he continues to do.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/SX7EUqzOAAAJ >>>>
Nyikos snips and runs from what he can't deal with, and that is obvious >>>> in the above link. He then lies about one of the issues that he
harassed me about. It is a stupid lie, and I can't figure out why
anyone would think that, that type of response was valid.
Nyikos initial harassing claims:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/7z8nZ0LbAgAJ >>>>
QUOTE:
130,000 years ago temperatures got warmerIf you have a source for this, did it actually cite studies done on >>>> those islands,
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels >>>>> that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian Ocean >>>>> and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood and
terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
or did it merely deduce these things from the average global sea level rise?
END QUOTE:
Nyikos obviously is harassing me about citations for temperature, more >>>> ice melting and sea levels rising higher than they are now. He should >>>> have countered with references claiming otherwise, but he would have >>>> found collaborating evidence if he had bothered to check things out himself.
Nyikos' bogus harassing response after getting reference:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/5ykTUUo6BgAJ >>>>
QUOTE:
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20 metersRon O talks about little birds instead of megafauna, leaving his earlier
higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and a second
one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure 3. I would >>>>> note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to occur if we do >>>>> not curb global warming.
assertion high and dry.
END QUOTE:
Nyikos' response to having his stupidity noted:
Nyikos obviously posted this harassement with no regard to wanting to >>>> understand much of what he was harassing me about.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/SX7EUqzOAAAJ\ >>>>
QUOTE:
The Nyikosian denialI never said anything about either of those two topics. Ron O is in the >>>> grip of what is, at best, a bunch of false recollections.
that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong >>>>> about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted.
END QUOTE:
Nyikos just lies, and then claims that it is my false recollection that >>>> is the issue. Nyikos obviously is not interested in this topic enough >>>> to track his own harassing claims.
If this type of harassment continues I will ask for Nyikos to be banned >>>> from TO. The last instance should have been enough for anyone, but not >>>> for an assoholic poster like Nyikos.
The link below is the last example that Nyikos snipped out of his
responses. It occurred just before Nyikos took his recent 2 month
vacation. This current harassment just has fewer outright lies in it. >>>>
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ >>>>
If Nyikos can't control himself he should be banned from TO. I do not >>>> follow Nyikos around TO and harass the asshole, and there is no reason >>>> for him to harass anyone. Elsewhere Nyikos is comparing himself to
Kleinman. Kleinman was just about an order of magnitude worse than
Nyikos. Klienman started his harassment because he was wrong about
something stupid. He claimed that he could use the product rule
(multiply the two individual probabilities to calculate the
probabilities of both occurring in the same cell) for two mutations >>>> occurring in the same cell lineage, but his example was that they were >>>> occurring in different generations. He was obviously wrong and his own >>>> reference told him that the product rule had issues when the events were
temporally separated. I gave him the Behe and Snokes reference, and how >>>> they dealt with the issue of two mutations occurring in the same cell >>>> lineage, but Kleinman would not accept that he was wrong, and started >>>> lying about me, and claiming that I didn't know the math. Kleinman
would post to me and tell the same lies in multiple posts in multiple >>>> threads nearly every day for around a year. It didn't matter what the >>>> topic of the thread was, the same harassing claims would be made over >>>> and over. Just a few weeks should have been enough, but Kleinman could >>>> not stop himself, and I asked that he be banned.
Nyikos is the same way except Nyikos has been less insane about his >>>> harassing efforts. Nyikos would post to me on any topic and lie about >>>> the past. It was insane. I had to create "REPOSTS" that contained all >>>> the evidence that Nyikos was lying about the past, and I reposted them >>>> when he started to lie about the past again. That should have ended a >>>> decade ago with his "Dirty Debating Thread" that Nyikos had started, in >>>> order to harass me. I had already stopped reading most of what Nyikos >>>> posted on TO and just basically dealt with what he posted to me. Nyikos >>>> had to come to me and tell me that I had to address the stupid lies that
he was posting in the dirty debating thread. Nyikos has been lying
about the issues he lied about in that thread for over a decade. His >>>> insane last effort made him quit harassing me about those issues (it has
been around half a year, and Nyikos could start back up at anytime, but >>>> this has been the longest break in his harassment about those issues >>>> since Nyikos returned in Dec 2010) but Nyikos can't give up on the
insane harassment.
This is the thread that has ended the Nyikosian harassment about the >>>> Dirty debating thread from back in Aug 2022. Since then Nyikos stopped >>>> incessantly lying about these issues, but he decided to create new
stupidity to harass me about.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/0GJ7i2VKEbg/m/8VgLI1iOAAAJ >>>>
Really, it took Nyikos over a decade to stop harassing me about those >>>> issues. He may start up again, but his previous longest break that I >>>> recall was around 3 months. Nyikos has routinely reached his limit for >>>> lying about the same thing and will give it up for a month or two, but >>>> only restarts lying about the past once he thinks that it is OK to do so
again. He has no reason to keep harassing me.
The harassment about the dirty debating issues should have ended long >>>> before the later part of last year. What consistently happens is that >>>> Nyikos resorts to broadening the topics that he has to lie about. He >>>> has always known that he was wrong about the involvement of the ID perps
in the bait and switch, and all of the dirty debating nonsense
accumulated due to his propensity to lie about other issues in order to >>>> harass me about his being wrong about something as stupid as the ID >>>> perps running the teach ID scam. He got shut down hard last August and >>>> has been accumulating more stupidity to harass me about since. The
harassment should have never started. Kleinman may have been an order of
magnitude worse than Nyikos in terms of frequency, but Nyikos has been >>>> at it for over a decade. Enough is enough.
Probably the saddest thing about the Nykosian harassment over the years >>>> is that Nyikos is always shown to be the lying asshole. He has behaved >>>> this way for over a decade (since Dec 2010) and I do not recall anything
that Nyikos has tried to harass me with ever accomplishing anything >>>> positive for Nyikos. This is due to the fact that Nyikos can't help >>>> himself and usually makes up the issue that he ends up lying about. >>>> Every single one of his posts involving the teach ID scam and the ID >>>> perp involvement have been a dead loss for Nyikos. I really can't
recall any instance where Nyikos was not shown to be the lying asshole >>>> that he is. In his projection of the subject he has claimed that he >>>> does it because he is a hate filled sadistic maniac that has to try to >>>> right some imaginary wrong done to him. Nyikos should make an effort to >>>> come up with any legitimate "knockdown" instances in order to defend his
obnoxious behavior to Grieg. Nyikos could not put up any in the first 4 >>>> years of his harassment, and I do not recall any since.
As noted above, a decade ago during the Dirty Debating thread fiasco >>>> Nyikos started another thread to harass me claiming that he was going to
put up three instances where he had knocked me down in the boxing ring. >>>> His first alleged knockdown blew up in his face because he made up the >>>> issue. Things did not occur the way that he had claimed. For weeks he >>>> ran from what he had done and even lied about me not posting a rebuttal >>>> to the thread. Nyikos couldn't identify any other possible knockdown >>>> events that had ever happened, and even though he claimed that he would >>>> produce the other two knockdowns in a week or two, years passed. His >>>> stated goal was to achieve a technical knockout, but no knockdowns
On 3/26/2023 6:29 PM, Bob Casanova wrote:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 17:47:08 -0500, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by RonO <[email protected]>:
<snip a bunch-o-stuff>
Why not just ignore him, or (risking ire from parties
Nyikos can stop his harassment or he should be made to do so.
unknown for "reasons"), killfile him? Then he can't "harass"
you. Ignoring (or killfiling) assholes works just fine.
Hasn't been a viable option for eternal september, and I shouldn't have
to killfile anyone.
The asshole should be able to just not post to me.
I don't follow Nyikos around TO with a pooper scooper. It has never
been worthwhile reading the junk that he posts to other posters. Look
at this example. Nyikos was only interested in harassing me. He
obviously wasn't interested enough to even remember what he was
harassing me about, or he thinks that he can lie about it after the fact
when he understands how stupid he has been.
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 09:13:26 -0700, Bob Casanova <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 08:33:54 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by jillery <[email protected]>:
It's curious the following inspires no cries of "off-topic" orJust can't let it drop, can you?
"killfiles are your friend" or "burning irony" from the peanut
gallery.
Don't start what you can't/won't finish.
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 16:29:39 -0700, Bob Casanova <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 17:47:08 -0500, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by RonO <[email protected]>:
<snip a bunch-o-stuff>
Why not just ignore him, or (risking ire from parties
Nyikos can stop his harassment or he should be made to do so.
unknown for "reasons"), killfile him? Then he can't "harass"
you. Ignoring (or killfiling) assholes works just fine.
I know you know that doesn't work, for reasons specified.
Kleinman posted the same things to you over and over because you kept responding.
If you stop responding to annoying people they eventually get bored and go off to annoy someone else. They may mention you from time to time, but with a bit of patience, ignoring them works fine.
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 19:39:33 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by jillery <[email protected]>:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 09:13:26 -0700, Bob Casanova <[email protected]>No need for me to "finish" anything I didn't start; it was
wrote:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 08:33:54 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by jillery <[email protected]>:
It's curious the following inspires no cries of "off-topic" or >>>>"killfiles are your friend" or "burning irony" from the peanutJust can't let it drop, can you?
gallery.
Don't start what you can't/won't finish.
your decision to restart it. Everyone knows you can't let it
drop; that chip on your shoulder is just too heavy.
<CrapSnip>
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 19:39:21 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by jillery <[email protected]>:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 16:29:39 -0700, Bob Casanova <[email protected]>I know that you know that I know that it works just fine as
wrote:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 17:47:08 -0500, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by RonO <[email protected]>:
<snip a bunch-o-stuff>
Why not just ignore him, or (risking ire from parties
Nyikos can stop his harassment or he should be made to do so.
unknown for "reasons"), killfile him? Then he can't "harass"
you. Ignoring (or killfiling) assholes works just fine.
I know you know that doesn't work, for reasons specified.
long as no one feeds the trolls.
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 18:28:18 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
Kleinman posted the same things to you over and over because you kept responding.
Incorrect. Kleinman posted the same thing in all of his posts, whether
or not other posters responded to them.
If you stop responding to annoying people they eventually get bored and
go off to annoy someone else. They may mention you from time to time,
but with a bit of patience, ignoring them works fine.
The history of T.O. posts shows your comment above is factually
incorrect. "They" post annoying noise whether or not anybody posts in
reply to them. This shows their "inspiration" is to post what "they" consider annoying noise regardless of feedback. Whether other posters respond to it is secondary at best. Meanwhile, posters like you who
fail to respond to their willfully stupid noise enable them to
continue to post without challenge, allowing them to assume tacit
approval.
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 20:17:24 -0700, Bob Casanova <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 19:39:33 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by jillery <[email protected]>:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 09:13:26 -0700, Bob Casanova <[email protected]>No need for me to "finish" anything I didn't start; it was
wrote:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 08:33:54 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by jillery <[email protected]>:
It's curious the following inspires no cries of "off-topic" orJust can't let it drop, can you?
"killfiles are your friend" or "burning irony" from the peanut
gallery.
Don't start what you can't/won't finish.
your decision to restart it. Everyone knows you can't let it
drop; that chip on your shoulder is just too heavy.
<CrapSnip>
Yet another willfully stupid lie. You, Bob Casanova, are the one who regularly spams "Killfiles are your friends". Don't blame me for what
you do, you blatantly willfully stupid liar.
jillery <[email protected]> wrote:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 20:17:24 -0700, Bob Casanova <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 19:39:33 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by jillery <[email protected]>:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 09:13:26 -0700, Bob Casanova <[email protected]>No need for me to "finish" anything I didn't start; it was
wrote:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 08:33:54 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by jillery <[email protected]>:
It's curious the following inspires no cries of "off-topic" orJust can't let it drop, can you?
"killfiles are your friend" or "burning irony" from the peanut
gallery.
Don't start what you can't/won't finish.
your decision to restart it. Everyone knows you can't let it
drop; that chip on your shoulder is just too heavy.
<CrapSnip>
Yet another willfully stupid lie. You, Bob Casanova, are the one who regularly spams "Killfiles are your friends". Don't blame me for what
you do, you blatantly willfully stupid liar.
Well this has taken a rather unpleasant turn.
On 3/26/2023 8:28 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 8:50:39 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/26/2023 6:22 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 6:50:39 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/19/2023 4:23 PM, RonO wrote:
On 3/8/2023 7:37 PM, RonO wrote:It looks like I will have to ask for Nyikos to be banned for his
On 3/4/2023 9:09 PM, RonO wrote:
The last episode of the documentary series Frozen Planet II was just >>>>>>> on TV. They had how bad global warming is to the Arctic environment >>>>>>> and wild life. The ending claimed that we could change this and >>>>>>> limit global warming to an additional 1.5 degrees.
Species like penguins and polar bears are having a hard time, but it >>>>>>> should have been noted that things were worse during the last warm >>>>>>> period between glaciation. 130,000 years ago temperatures got warmer >>>>>>> than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels >>>>>>> that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian >>>>>>> Ocean and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood >>>>>>> and terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands. >>>>>>>
It seems that what we should be working on is determining how the ice
age species made it through that last environmental catastrophe that >>>>>>> has been occurring around every hundred thousand years for the last >>>>>>> million years. The intervals between warm periods have been getting >>>>>>> longer in the last half million years, and life on earth hasn't been >>>>>>> able to adapt to that very effectively. Most of the ice age
megafauna likely nearly went extinct the last warm period, and even >>>>>>> though their populations came back, the populations were likely not >>>>>>> healthy enough to survive this warm period. No wolly rhino,
mastodons, and mammoths exist anywhere. The giant bears and saber >>>>>>> toothed cats that fed on them didn't make it. Species like polar >>>>>>> bears and penguins may not survive this warm period, and could go the
way of the mammoth.
We likely need to figure out how these species survived the last warm
period that became worse than current conditions. More ice melted >>>>>>> last time and sea levels were as high as they are predicting for this
warm period. In order to maintain viable populations we need to make >>>>>>> those regions that allowed the survival of ice age species available >>>>>>> to these animals. More of their habitat was lost last warm period, >>>>>>> but the existing arctic species found somewhere to survive. We need >>>>>>> to figure out what those survival places were and make them available
to the species that need them.
For the penguin example, it is obvious that the last warm period the >>>>>>> Adele penguins had to find some place else to nest. Finding where >>>>>>> that was and relocating animals is likely the best way to get a large
enough population through this warm period.
The issue with man made global warming is the prediction that was put
out a few years ago that we might skip the next glacial period and >>>>>>> the warm period might last a hundred thousand years longer than usual.
The warm period is not the normal environment for temperate
latitudes. For the last million years most of the time the temperate >>>>>>> latitudes have had an arctic alpine environment. Arctic species are >>>>>>> adapted to what usually exists. The current environment has them >>>>>>> limited to the icy regions of the world, and their environment has >>>>>>> been rollercoasting for the last couple million years.
Ron Okimoto
I don't want to interact with a lying asshole like Nyikos, but I will >>>>>> put up the supporting evidence for what I had claimed during
discussions on this topic, in order to demonstrate what an asshole >>>>>> Nyikos is. Why wouldn't he look this stuff up for himself instead of >>>>>> being the asshole that he is and making the claims that he made? >>>>>>
Evidence that there were at least two warm periods within the last >>>>>> half million years where more ice melted than has melted at this time >>>>>> in the current warm period.
https://academic.oup.com/zoolinnean/article/186/3/666/5487031?login=false
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20 >>>>>> meters higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and >>>>>> a second one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure >>>>>> 3. I would note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to >>>>>> occur if we do not curb global warming.
The wiki for ice ages has a graph on temperature and amount of ice. >>>>>> It shows that it got warmer than the current warm period twice in the >>>>>> last 500,000 years. More ice melted 136,000 years ago, and the rail >>>>>> paper claims that sea level was 20 meters higher than today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32795436/
This paper is open access and notes the population decline of wooly >>>>>> rhinos over the past 1 million years after the cold periods got longer
than 40,000 years. The same trend was noted in the genomes of wooly >>>>>> mammoths. It wasn't just the ice age arctic and alpine species that >>>>>> were affected by the extension of the cold period. Temperate species >>>>>> such as peacocks, junglefowl and tigers show the same decline in >>>>>> effective population size over this time period. So the extended cold >>>>>> periods were hard on the temperate species (probably because their >>>>>> habitat was restricted for a longer period of time. The arctic
species population decline was likely due to having a longer time to >>>>>> adapt to the arctic conditions only to have that habitat greatly >>>>>> reduced for a short, but devestating period of time. The rhinos, >>>>>> mastadon and mammoth didn't make it through this warm period, but >>>>>> their decline started a million years ago.
Popular science article on the rhino genome.
https://phys.org/news/2020-08-ancient-genomes-woolly-rhinos-extinct.html
Ron Okimoto
I will note that Nyikos does what he does just to harass me. He
obviously had no interest in this topic. His own projection has him >>>>> doing it because he is a sadistic hate filled maniac that thinks that he
is righting some wrong done to him in the past. Nyikos has always >>>>> brought it all onto himself. He has just added to the things that he >>>>> can't deal with in his failed attempts to lie about the past. No one >>>>> should have been subjected to the Nyikosian stupidity and harassment for
over a decade. It should be apparent that Nyikos only posted the junk >>>>> to harass me because he wasn't interested in the topic enough to read >>>>> the cited paper in order to figure out what it actually supported. >>>>>
This behavior should end. I do not stalk Nyikos around TO, and Nyikos >>>>> should not be allowed to continue to do what he does.
Nyikios' last attempt at harassment that should have been his last for >>>>> any sane individual.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ >>>>>
This type of stupidity due to Nyikosian harassment should never take >>>>> place, but it just never ends.
I didn't expect Nyikos to address these two points because he was just >>>>> plain wrong about them, and his nit picking doesn't do much to change >>>>> that fact. I don't care about his issues with other posters. His first >>>>> attempted response was pathetic, and he did try again. He did nothing >>>>> to counter the fact that there were at least two warm interglacial >>>>> periods before the current one where the temperatures were higher and >>>>> more ice melted. His stupid flailing about being wrong and the fact >>>>> that he should have been able to figure it out for himself is just >>>>> stupid. He even acknowledges that the Wiki supports me, but he makes >>>>> some stupid comment about the inversion of the graph that simply doesn't
matter at all. His stupid comments about the rail extinction example is
just nonsense. I used that paper to demonstrate that during the last >>>>> interglacial sea levels were 20 meters higher then they are today, and >>>>> that more ice melted in the last interglacial. The Nyikosian denial >>>>> that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong >>>>> about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted.
For the rhino example the population decline did start more than a >>>>> million years ago, but so what? It still happened. Two interglacials >>>>> ago the temperatures did not get as warm as the current period, and the
species of rhino under discussion and some mammoths did come through >>>>> pretty well and they show an increase in effective population size >>>>> during the cold period before the last previous interglacial where >>>>> temperatures got higher than they are today and more ice melted than has
melted currently. If Nyikos had bothered to read the paper for
comprehension he would have understood that the authors admit that there
was a population crash during the last warm period that is not picked up
by their effective population size estimates. They cite a wooly mammoth
paper as an example of the population crash that they expected to >>>>> happen. They try to explain the long tail where the effective
population size estimates stay high before bottoming out to a low long >>>>> after the population had recovered during the last cold period. Their >>>>> explanation was that during the high temperature and low ice period >>>>> multiple small isolated populations survived the bottleneck, and when >>>>> they could expand out into more territory they interbred. They thought >>>>> that males moving between populations could accomplish a population >>>>> mixing that would reestablish genetic diversity that had been preserved
in the small isolated populations. In our paper that noted the decline >>>>> in genetic diversity of domestic chickens we stated the obvious
conclusion that we could recreate a population with nearly all of the >>>>> genetic diversity domestic chickens started with by crossing the extant
domestic breeds together. Each population had lost diversity over time >>>>> even as their total population increased because of how they were >>>>> propagated as small flocks in isolated villages, but each population had
retained a different bit of the original genetic variation, and if >>>>> combined would restore a lot of the genetic variation that domestic >>>>> chickens started with.
All this means is that the paper acknowledged that there had been a >>>>> severe population crash during the last interglacial that was not picked
up by their method of calculating effective population size. They also >>>>> admit that they can't explain why their estimate of effective population
size continues to decline for tens of thousands of years after the >>>>> population had likely regained a stable size of around 100,000 breeding
females. This decline is likely just a reflection of the population >>>>> crash that occurred before the population recovery because you can remix
the genetic variation, but as soon as you start crossing relatives you >>>>> are going to start loosing the genetic variation. For some reason their
methods do not pick up the population crash that they expected to >>>>> happen, and instead shows a gradual decline even after the bottle neck >>>>> was resolved and a large stable population was being maintained for 10s
of thousands of years during this period of decline. They could not >>>>> explain the long decline in effective population size and the final low
that did not reflect the larger population size estimate obtained by >>>>> other means. For some reason the population bottleneck during the >>>>> previous interglacial took a long time to manifest in the rhino genome,
and did not show a recovery until after the glacial maximum when the >>>>> population had actually recovered just a few thousand years after the >>>>> last warm period ended. They can't explain why the effective population
estimate continued to decline and bottomed out over a period when other
estimates indicated that a stable population of around 100,000 breeding
females was reestablished soon after the last warm period and this >>>>> population was relatively stable over a period of 100,000 years.
So the Nyikosian response is the usual Nyikosian null response. What >>>>> Nyikos was wrong about, he is still wrong about. Nit picking and
outright stupidity will not support the harassment.
This harassment should stop. The only reason to continue the harassment
is the insane behavior of Nyikos. For whatever reason he has never been
able to deal with the fact that he has been wrong about multiple things
like the present examples. All the craziness with the ID scam was due >>>>> to Nyikos' first mistake when he was wrong about the Discovery
Institute's involvement in the bait and switch that has been going on >>>>> for over 20 years. He blames me for his bumbling stupidity and
dishonesty since. It is just nuts because he wouldn't have as much of >>>>> his assoholic behavior to blame me for if he had never started his >>>>> harassment due to simply being shown to be wrong about something. >>>>>
I maintain as little interaction with the lying asshole as is possible,
and if the baseless harassment continues Nyikos should be banned from >>>>> TO. I had enjoyed a fairly long break from the assoholic behavior >>>>> during the recent Nykosian vacation, and that break should be extended >>>>> indefinitely. If Nyikos can't control his assoholic behavior, he should
be stopped from doing it. Nyikos didn't care if he was wrong about the >>>>> junk, it was just harassment. He obviously didn't care enough about >>>>> being wrong to do what needed to be done in order to determine that he >>>>> was wrong, nor understand the paper that was used to counter his denial.
Just use the link and go back to the last such episode to determine >>>>> how tragically sad Nyikos has always been.
The last such Nykosian episode:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ >>>>>
I will likely be referring to this post to make my case in the future if
this harassment continues.
Ron Okimoto
obnoxious harassing behavior. If Nyikos wants to defend himself he
should start looking for any harassing posts that had a positive outcome
for him. There may be one or two, but my guess is that 99.9 percent of >>>> Nyikos' posts to me have contained senseless harassing material. All >>>> his lies about the past never worked out for him, so around 80 to 90% of
his harassing posts over the last decade have been a dead loss for
Nyikos. It is apparent that it has been pretty much all harassment
because around a year after Nyikos' return; a year of his senseless >>>> stupidity and lies about the Discovery Institute and the creationist ID >>>> scam, Nyikos claimed that he had knocked me down 3 times. He claimed >>>> that he would post the knockdowns within a couple weeks of his posting >>>> his initial knockdown and claims of having two more to post. So even to >>>> Nyikos his efforts were just harassment and trying to knock me down. The
sad thing is that Nyikos could not find anything in that years worth of >>>> harassing posts that he could list as a win for him. He had always just >>>> obfuscated the issue, run and or lied to his limit for lying. Nyikos >>>> kept claiming that the knockdowns were still coming for around 3 years, >>>> and never produced anything that could be considered positive for
Nyikos. The claims ended with the Nyikosian claim that he had delivered >>>> the third knockdown, but Nyikos would not provide a link nor tell me >>>> where the post was supposed to be. It had been 3 additional years of >>>> assoholic harassing posts, and they all turned out like the current >>>> example. Nyikos never got any better as the harassment has continued >>>> for over a decade. If Nyikos wants to claim that it hasn't been over a >>>> decade of assoholic harassment, he should be able to produce hundreds of
posts where he had a legitimate beef. This example and the previous >>>> example (already linked to in previous posts) obviously do not qualify. >>>> Someone might think that even a bumbling assoholic harasser would have >>>> multiple examples where his harassment was justified in some legitimate >>>> way, but Nyikos has never cared if he had any legitimate reason to
harass me, and his degenerate record demonstrates that. Over a decade >>>> of harassment, and what does Nyikos have to show for it?
Nyikos should be required to produce any posts that Nyikos made to
harass me for over a decade that he thinks were legitimate and had a >>>> positive outcome for the loser. If he ever had any legitimate reasons >>>> for doing what he has done he should have hundreds of examples, but he >>>> couldn't come up with any for the first 4 years of his harassment, and I
don't recall any examples since. Even if Nyikos could scrounge up 1 or >>>> 2 examples (I doubt it) how sad would that be for over a decade of
senseless harassment?
This post will likely be one of them that will be submitted to Grieg in >>>> the request to ban Nyikos from TO. It doesn't look like Nyikos is able >>>> to stop himself from doing what he has done since he came back to TO. >>>> Over a decade of this type of stupid senseless harassment should be >>>> enough for any sadistic asshole like Nyikos. I do not stalk Nyikos
around TO. It is Nyikos that nearly always has to post his harassing >>>> posts to me. There is no reason for it to continue. If Nyikos can't >>>> control his assoholic tendencies he should be made to do so. It has >>>> been really sad that it takes putting Nyikos down like the rabid dog >>>> that he is in no uncertain terms until he reaches his limit for lying >>>> about the stupid junk that he posts. The harassment for over a decade >>>> is due to Nyikos being wrong about something in, probably, the first >>>> post he posted after his return. Nyikos had a, likely involuntary,
absence, from TO for nearly a decade, and made his return Dec. 2010. >>>> For Nyikosian reasons he has had to lie about that post in anyway that >>>> he can, and has had to maintain his harassment due to just being wrong >>>> about something. It never gets any better because Nyikos just generates >>>> more that he has to lie about in his sadistic endeavor. This incessant >>>> harassment has never worked out well for Nyikos because there was never >>>> any legitimate reason for the harassment to start.
The lies and nonsensical harrassment continues, and if it doesn't stop I
will be forced to formally get Grieg into this and start the process for
getting Nyikos removed from TO. I do not harass Nyikos, and there is no >>>> sane reason for Nyikos to continue his sadistic behavior. He knows that >>>> he is a sadistic maniac because that is what he projects onto me when I >>>> am being the victim of his abuse. Over a decade of this type of
stupidity should be long enough for anyone. Nyikos obviously didn't >>>> care enough about the current topic to understand what he was harassing >>>> me about, and now just has to lie about the effort to continue his
harassment. Enough is enough, and Nyikos should be banned if he can't >>>> restrain himself.
I have repeatedly told the asshole that I do not care about his issues >>>> with other posters. Why would anyone? Still in his last response he >>>> continues to whine about other posters even after being informed as to >>>> how assoholic such behavior is. It is just insane and it should stop. >>>> Anyone just has to look at other posters responding to the junk Nyikos >>>> writes about them in his posts that are supposedly addressing my posts. >>>> I do not even read most of what Nyikos posts on TO, so he has free reign
to lie about me to other posters, but by this time my guess is that >>>> there aren't very many TO posters that do not understand what a lying >>>> asshole Nyikos has always been. There is no sane reason for Nyikos to >>>> harass me as he continues to do.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/SX7EUqzOAAAJ >>>>
Nyikos snips and runs from what he can't deal with, and that is obvious >>>> in the above link. He then lies about one of the issues that he
harassed me about. It is a stupid lie, and I can't figure out why
anyone would think that, that type of response was valid.
Nyikos initial harassing claims:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/7z8nZ0LbAgAJ >>>>
QUOTE:
130,000 years ago temperatures got warmerIf you have a source for this, did it actually cite studies done on >>>> those islands,
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels >>>>> that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian Ocean >>>>> and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood and
terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
or did it merely deduce these things from the average global sea level rise?
END QUOTE:
Nyikos obviously is harassing me about citations for temperature, more >>>> ice melting and sea levels rising higher than they are now. He should >>>> have countered with references claiming otherwise, but he would have >>>> found collaborating evidence if he had bothered to check things out himself.
Nyikos' bogus harassing response after getting reference:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/5ykTUUo6BgAJ >>>>
QUOTE:
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20 metersRon O talks about little birds instead of megafauna, leaving his earlier
higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and a second
one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure 3. I would >>>>> note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to occur if we do >>>>> not curb global warming.
assertion high and dry.
END QUOTE:
Nyikos' response to having his stupidity noted:
Nyikos obviously posted this harassement with no regard to wanting to >>>> understand much of what he was harassing me about.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/SX7EUqzOAAAJ\ >>>>
QUOTE:
The Nyikosian denialI never said anything about either of those two topics. Ron O is in the >>>> grip of what is, at best, a bunch of false recollections.
that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong >>>>> about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted.
END QUOTE:
Nyikos just lies, and then claims that it is my false recollection that >>>> is the issue. Nyikos obviously is not interested in this topic enough >>>> to track his own harassing claims.
If this type of harassment continues I will ask for Nyikos to be banned >>>> from TO. The last instance should have been enough for anyone, but not >>>> for an assoholic poster like Nyikos.
The link below is the last example that Nyikos snipped out of his
responses. It occurred just before Nyikos took his recent 2 month
vacation. This current harassment just has fewer outright lies in it. >>>>
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ >>>>
If Nyikos can't control himself he should be banned from TO. I do not >>>> follow Nyikos around TO and harass the asshole, and there is no reason >>>> for him to harass anyone. Elsewhere Nyikos is comparing himself to
Kleinman. Kleinman was just about an order of magnitude worse than
Nyikos. Klienman started his harassment because he was wrong about
something stupid. He claimed that he could use the product rule
(multiply the two individual probabilities to calculate the
probabilities of both occurring in the same cell) for two mutations >>>> occurring in the same cell lineage, but his example was that they were >>>> occurring in different generations. He was obviously wrong and his own >>>> reference told him that the product rule had issues when the events were
temporally separated. I gave him the Behe and Snokes reference, and how >>>> they dealt with the issue of two mutations occurring in the same cell >>>> lineage, but Kleinman would not accept that he was wrong, and started >>>> lying about me, and claiming that I didn't know the math. Kleinman
would post to me and tell the same lies in multiple posts in multiple >>>> threads nearly every day for around a year. It didn't matter what the >>>> topic of the thread was, the same harassing claims would be made over >>>> and over. Just a few weeks should have been enough, but Kleinman could >>>> not stop himself, and I asked that he be banned.
Nyikos is the same way except Nyikos has been less insane about his >>>> harassing efforts. Nyikos would post to me on any topic and lie about >>>> the past. It was insane. I had to create "REPOSTS" that contained all >>>> the evidence that Nyikos was lying about the past, and I reposted them >>>> when he started to lie about the past again. That should have ended a >>>> decade ago with his "Dirty Debating Thread" that Nyikos had started, in >>>> order to harass me. I had already stopped reading most of what Nyikos >>>> posted on TO and just basically dealt with what he posted to me. Nyikos >>>> had to come to me and tell me that I had to address the stupid lies that
he was posting in the dirty debating thread. Nyikos has been lying
about the issues he lied about in that thread for over a decade. His >>>> insane last effort made him quit harassing me about those issues (it has
been around half a year, and Nyikos could start back up at anytime, but >>>> this has been the longest break in his harassment about those issues >>>> since Nyikos returned in Dec 2010) but Nyikos can't give up on the
insane harassment.
This is the thread that has ended the Nyikosian harassment about the >>>> Dirty debating thread from back in Aug 2022. Since then Nyikos stopped >>>> incessantly lying about these issues, but he decided to create new
stupidity to harass me about.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/0GJ7i2VKEbg/m/8VgLI1iOAAAJ >>>>
Really, it took Nyikos over a decade to stop harassing me about those >>>> issues. He may start up again, but his previous longest break that I >>>> recall was around 3 months. Nyikos has routinely reached his limit for >>>> lying about the same thing and will give it up for a month or two, but >>>> only restarts lying about the past once he thinks that it is OK to do so
again. He has no reason to keep harassing me.
The harassment about the dirty debating issues should have ended long >>>> before the later part of last year. What consistently happens is that >>>> Nyikos resorts to broadening the topics that he has to lie about. He >>>> has always known that he was wrong about the involvement of the ID perps
in the bait and switch, and all of the dirty debating nonsense
accumulated due to his propensity to lie about other issues in order to >>>> harass me about his being wrong about something as stupid as the ID >>>> perps running the teach ID scam. He got shut down hard last August and >>>> has been accumulating more stupidity to harass me about since. The
harassment should have never started. Kleinman may have been an order of
magnitude worse than Nyikos in terms of frequency, but Nyikos has been >>>> at it for over a decade. Enough is enough.
Probably the saddest thing about the Nykosian harassment over the years >>>> is that Nyikos is always shown to be the lying asshole. He has behaved >>>> this way for over a decade (since Dec 2010) and I do not recall anything
that Nyikos has tried to harass me with ever accomplishing anything >>>> positive for Nyikos. This is due to the fact that Nyikos can't help >>>> himself and usually makes up the issue that he ends up lying about. >>>> Every single one of his posts involving the teach ID scam and the ID >>>> perp involvement have been a dead loss for Nyikos. I really can't
recall any instance where Nyikos was not shown to be the lying asshole >>>> that he is. In his projection of the subject he has claimed that he >>>> does it because he is a hate filled sadistic maniac that has to try to >>>> right some imaginary wrong done to him. Nyikos should make an effort to >>>> come up with any legitimate "knockdown" instances in order to defend his
obnoxious behavior to Grieg. Nyikos could not put up any in the first 4 >>>> years of his harassment, and I do not recall any since.
As noted above, a decade ago during the Dirty Debating thread fiasco >>>> Nyikos started another thread to harass me claiming that he was going to
put up three instances where he had knocked me down in the boxing ring. >>>> His first alleged knockdown blew up in his face because he made up the >>>> issue. Things did not occur the way that he had claimed. For weeks he >>>> ran from what he had done and even lied about me not posting a rebuttal >>>> to the thread. Nyikos couldn't identify any other possible knockdown >>>> events that had ever happened, and even though he claimed that he would >>>> produce the other two knockdowns in a week or two, years passed. His >>>> stated goal was to achieve a technical knockout, but no knockdowns
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 19:56:04 -0500, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by RonO <[email protected]>:
On 3/26/2023 6:29 PM, Bob Casanova wrote:The server is irrelevant; I also use ES. Agent has a viable
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 17:47:08 -0500, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by RonO <[email protected]>:
<snip a bunch-o-stuff>
Why not just ignore him, or (risking ire from parties
Nyikos can stop his harassment or he should be made to do so.
unknown for "reasons"), killfile him? Then he can't "harass"
you. Ignoring (or killfiling) assholes works just fine.
Hasn't been a viable option for eternal september, and I shouldn't have
to killfile anyone.
killfile option. And "shouldn't" is also irrelevant; reality
doesn't conform to your wishes.
He's quite able to "not post" to you. The question is
The asshole should be able to just not post to me.
I don't follow Nyikos around TO with a pooper scooper. It has never
been worthwhile reading the junk that he posts to other posters. Look
at this example. Nyikos was only interested in harassing me. He
obviously wasn't interested enough to even remember what he was
harassing me about, or he thinks that he can lie about it after the fact
when he understands how stupid he has been.
whether you're able to ignore posts made by assholes,
something I've been learning to do (with mixed success).
But FWIW, no one "posts to" anyone else; all posts are
public. All anyone can do is reference others, and the
"others" have the option of ignoring the posts by idiots.
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 6:40:39 PM UTC-7, RonO wrote:
On 3/26/2023 8:28 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 8:50:39 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/26/2023 6:22 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 6:50:39 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/19/2023 4:23 PM, RonO wrote:
On 3/8/2023 7:37 PM, RonO wrote:It looks like I will have to ask for Nyikos to be banned for his
On 3/4/2023 9:09 PM, RonO wrote:
The last episode of the documentary series Frozen Planet II was just >>>>>>>>> on TV. They had how bad global warming is to the Arctic environment >>>>>>>>> and wild life. The ending claimed that we could change this and >>>>>>>>> limit global warming to an additional 1.5 degrees.
Species like penguins and polar bears are having a hard time, but it >>>>>>>>> should have been noted that things were worse during the last warm >>>>>>>>> period between glaciation. 130,000 years ago temperatures got warmer >>>>>>>>> than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels >>>>>>>>> that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian >>>>>>>>> Ocean and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood >>>>>>>>> and terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands. >>>>>>>>>
It seems that what we should be working on is determining how the ice >>>>>>>>> age species made it through that last environmental catastrophe that >>>>>>>>> has been occurring around every hundred thousand years for the last >>>>>>>>> million years. The intervals between warm periods have been getting >>>>>>>>> longer in the last half million years, and life on earth hasn't been >>>>>>>>> able to adapt to that very effectively. Most of the ice age
megafauna likely nearly went extinct the last warm period, and even >>>>>>>>> though their populations came back, the populations were likely not >>>>>>>>> healthy enough to survive this warm period. No wolly rhino,
mastodons, and mammoths exist anywhere. The giant bears and saber >>>>>>>>> toothed cats that fed on them didn't make it. Species like polar >>>>>>>>> bears and penguins may not survive this warm period, and could go the >>>>>>>>> way of the mammoth.
We likely need to figure out how these species survived the last warm >>>>>>>>> period that became worse than current conditions. More ice melted >>>>>>>>> last time and sea levels were as high as they are predicting for this >>>>>>>>> warm period. In order to maintain viable populations we need to make >>>>>>>>> those regions that allowed the survival of ice age species available >>>>>>>>> to these animals. More of their habitat was lost last warm period, >>>>>>>>> but the existing arctic species found somewhere to survive. We need >>>>>>>>> to figure out what those survival places were and make them available >>>>>>>>> to the species that need them.
For the penguin example, it is obvious that the last warm period the >>>>>>>>> Adele penguins had to find some place else to nest. Finding where >>>>>>>>> that was and relocating animals is likely the best way to get a large >>>>>>>>> enough population through this warm period.
The issue with man made global warming is the prediction that was put >>>>>>>>> out a few years ago that we might skip the next glacial period and >>>>>>>>> the warm period might last a hundred thousand years longer than usual.
The warm period is not the normal environment for temperate
latitudes. For the last million years most of the time the temperate >>>>>>>>> latitudes have had an arctic alpine environment. Arctic species are >>>>>>>>> adapted to what usually exists. The current environment has them >>>>>>>>> limited to the icy regions of the world, and their environment has >>>>>>>>> been rollercoasting for the last couple million years.
Ron Okimoto
I don't want to interact with a lying asshole like Nyikos, but I will >>>>>>>> put up the supporting evidence for what I had claimed during
discussions on this topic, in order to demonstrate what an asshole >>>>>>>> Nyikos is. Why wouldn't he look this stuff up for himself instead of >>>>>>>> being the asshole that he is and making the claims that he made? >>>>>>>>
Evidence that there were at least two warm periods within the last >>>>>>>> half million years where more ice melted than has melted at this time >>>>>>>> in the current warm period.
https://academic.oup.com/zoolinnean/article/186/3/666/5487031?login=false
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20 >>>>>>>> meters higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and >>>>>>>> a second one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure >>>>>>>> 3. I would note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to >>>>>>>> occur if we do not curb global warming.
The wiki for ice ages has a graph on temperature and amount of ice. >>>>>>>> It shows that it got warmer than the current warm period twice in the >>>>>>>> last 500,000 years. More ice melted 136,000 years ago, and the rail >>>>>>>> paper claims that sea level was 20 meters higher than today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32795436/
This paper is open access and notes the population decline of wooly >>>>>>>> rhinos over the past 1 million years after the cold periods got longer >>>>>>>> than 40,000 years. The same trend was noted in the genomes of wooly >>>>>>>> mammoths. It wasn't just the ice age arctic and alpine species that >>>>>>>> were affected by the extension of the cold period. Temperate species >>>>>>>> such as peacocks, junglefowl and tigers show the same decline in >>>>>>>> effective population size over this time period. So the extended cold >>>>>>>> periods were hard on the temperate species (probably because their >>>>>>>> habitat was restricted for a longer period of time. The arctic >>>>>>>> species population decline was likely due to having a longer time to >>>>>>>> adapt to the arctic conditions only to have that habitat greatly >>>>>>>> reduced for a short, but devestating period of time. The rhinos, >>>>>>>> mastadon and mammoth didn't make it through this warm period, but >>>>>>>> their decline started a million years ago.
Popular science article on the rhino genome.
https://phys.org/news/2020-08-ancient-genomes-woolly-rhinos-extinct.html
Ron Okimoto
I will note that Nyikos does what he does just to harass me. He
obviously had no interest in this topic. His own projection has him >>>>>>> doing it because he is a sadistic hate filled maniac that thinks that he
is righting some wrong done to him in the past. Nyikos has always >>>>>>> brought it all onto himself. He has just added to the things that he >>>>>>> can't deal with in his failed attempts to lie about the past. No one >>>>>>> should have been subjected to the Nyikosian stupidity and harassment for
over a decade. It should be apparent that Nyikos only posted the junk >>>>>>> to harass me because he wasn't interested in the topic enough to read >>>>>>> the cited paper in order to figure out what it actually supported. >>>>>>>
This behavior should end. I do not stalk Nyikos around TO, and Nyikos >>>>>>> should not be allowed to continue to do what he does.
Nyikios' last attempt at harassment that should have been his last for >>>>>>> any sane individual.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ >>>>>>>
This type of stupidity due to Nyikosian harassment should never take >>>>>>> place, but it just never ends.
I didn't expect Nyikos to address these two points because he was just >>>>>>> plain wrong about them, and his nit picking doesn't do much to change >>>>>>> that fact. I don't care about his issues with other posters. His first >>>>>>> attempted response was pathetic, and he did try again. He did nothing >>>>>>> to counter the fact that there were at least two warm interglacial >>>>>>> periods before the current one where the temperatures were higher and >>>>>>> more ice melted. His stupid flailing about being wrong and the fact >>>>>>> that he should have been able to figure it out for himself is just >>>>>>> stupid. He even acknowledges that the Wiki supports me, but he makes >>>>>>> some stupid comment about the inversion of the graph that simply doesn't
matter at all. His stupid comments about the rail extinction example is >>>>>>> just nonsense. I used that paper to demonstrate that during the last >>>>>>> interglacial sea levels were 20 meters higher then they are today, and >>>>>>> that more ice melted in the last interglacial. The Nyikosian denial >>>>>>> that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong >>>>>>> about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted.
For the rhino example the population decline did start more than a >>>>>>> million years ago, but so what? It still happened. Two interglacials >>>>>>> ago the temperatures did not get as warm as the current period, and the >>>>>>> species of rhino under discussion and some mammoths did come through >>>>>>> pretty well and they show an increase in effective population size >>>>>>> during the cold period before the last previous interglacial where >>>>>>> temperatures got higher than they are today and more ice melted than has
melted currently. If Nyikos had bothered to read the paper for
comprehension he would have understood that the authors admit that there
was a population crash during the last warm period that is not picked up
by their effective population size estimates. They cite a wooly mammoth >>>>>>> paper as an example of the population crash that they expected to >>>>>>> happen. They try to explain the long tail where the effective
population size estimates stay high before bottoming out to a low long >>>>>>> after the population had recovered during the last cold period. Their >>>>>>> explanation was that during the high temperature and low ice period >>>>>>> multiple small isolated populations survived the bottleneck, and when >>>>>>> they could expand out into more territory they interbred. They thought >>>>>>> that males moving between populations could accomplish a population >>>>>>> mixing that would reestablish genetic diversity that had been preserved >>>>>>> in the small isolated populations. In our paper that noted the decline >>>>>>> in genetic diversity of domestic chickens we stated the obvious
conclusion that we could recreate a population with nearly all of the >>>>>>> genetic diversity domestic chickens started with by crossing the extant >>>>>>> domestic breeds together. Each population had lost diversity over time >>>>>>> even as their total population increased because of how they were >>>>>>> propagated as small flocks in isolated villages, but each population had
retained a different bit of the original genetic variation, and if >>>>>>> combined would restore a lot of the genetic variation that domestic >>>>>>> chickens started with.
All this means is that the paper acknowledged that there had been a >>>>>>> severe population crash during the last interglacial that was not picked
up by their method of calculating effective population size. They also >>>>>>> admit that they can't explain why their estimate of effective population
size continues to decline for tens of thousands of years after the >>>>>>> population had likely regained a stable size of around 100,000 breeding >>>>>>> females. This decline is likely just a reflection of the population >>>>>>> crash that occurred before the population recovery because you can remix
the genetic variation, but as soon as you start crossing relatives you >>>>>>> are going to start loosing the genetic variation. For some reason their >>>>>>> methods do not pick up the population crash that they expected to >>>>>>> happen, and instead shows a gradual decline even after the bottle neck >>>>>>> was resolved and a large stable population was being maintained for 10s >>>>>>> of thousands of years during this period of decline. They could not >>>>>>> explain the long decline in effective population size and the final low >>>>>>> that did not reflect the larger population size estimate obtained by >>>>>>> other means. For some reason the population bottleneck during the >>>>>>> previous interglacial took a long time to manifest in the rhino genome, >>>>>>> and did not show a recovery until after the glacial maximum when the >>>>>>> population had actually recovered just a few thousand years after the >>>>>>> last warm period ended. They can't explain why the effective population >>>>>>> estimate continued to decline and bottomed out over a period when other >>>>>>> estimates indicated that a stable population of around 100,000 breeding >>>>>>> females was reestablished soon after the last warm period and this >>>>>>> population was relatively stable over a period of 100,000 years. >>>>>>>
So the Nyikosian response is the usual Nyikosian null response. What >>>>>>> Nyikos was wrong about, he is still wrong about. Nit picking and >>>>>>> outright stupidity will not support the harassment.
This harassment should stop. The only reason to continue the harassment >>>>>>> is the insane behavior of Nyikos. For whatever reason he has never been >>>>>>> able to deal with the fact that he has been wrong about multiple things >>>>>>> like the present examples. All the craziness with the ID scam was due >>>>>>> to Nyikos' first mistake when he was wrong about the Discovery
Institute's involvement in the bait and switch that has been going on >>>>>>> for over 20 years. He blames me for his bumbling stupidity and
dishonesty since. It is just nuts because he wouldn't have as much of >>>>>>> his assoholic behavior to blame me for if he had never started his >>>>>>> harassment due to simply being shown to be wrong about something. >>>>>>>
I maintain as little interaction with the lying asshole as is possible, >>>>>>> and if the baseless harassment continues Nyikos should be banned from >>>>>>> TO. I had enjoyed a fairly long break from the assoholic behavior >>>>>>> during the recent Nykosian vacation, and that break should be extended >>>>>>> indefinitely. If Nyikos can't control his assoholic behavior, he should >>>>>>> be stopped from doing it. Nyikos didn't care if he was wrong about the >>>>>>> junk, it was just harassment. He obviously didn't care enough about >>>>>>> being wrong to do what needed to be done in order to determine that he >>>>>>> was wrong, nor understand the paper that was used to counter his denial.
Just use the link and go back to the last such episode to determine >>>>>>> how tragically sad Nyikos has always been.
The last such Nykosian episode:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ >>>>>>>
I will likely be referring to this post to make my case in the future if
this harassment continues.
Ron Okimoto
obnoxious harassing behavior. If Nyikos wants to defend himself he >>>>>> should start looking for any harassing posts that had a positive outcome >>>>>> for him. There may be one or two, but my guess is that 99.9 percent of >>>>>> Nyikos' posts to me have contained senseless harassing material. All >>>>>> his lies about the past never worked out for him, so around 80 to 90% of >>>>>> his harassing posts over the last decade have been a dead loss for >>>>>> Nyikos. It is apparent that it has been pretty much all harassment >>>>>> because around a year after Nyikos' return; a year of his senseless >>>>>> stupidity and lies about the Discovery Institute and the creationist ID >>>>>> scam, Nyikos claimed that he had knocked me down 3 times. He claimed >>>>>> that he would post the knockdowns within a couple weeks of his posting >>>>>> his initial knockdown and claims of having two more to post. So even to >>>>>> Nyikos his efforts were just harassment and trying to knock me down. The >>>>>> sad thing is that Nyikos could not find anything in that years worth of >>>>>> harassing posts that he could list as a win for him. He had always just >>>>>> obfuscated the issue, run and or lied to his limit for lying. Nyikos >>>>>> kept claiming that the knockdowns were still coming for around 3 years, >>>>>> and never produced anything that could be considered positive for
Nyikos. The claims ended with the Nyikosian claim that he had delivered >>>>>> the third knockdown, but Nyikos would not provide a link nor tell me >>>>>> where the post was supposed to be. It had been 3 additional years of >>>>>> assoholic harassing posts, and they all turned out like the current >>>>>> example. Nyikos never got any better as the harassment has continued >>>>>> for over a decade. If Nyikos wants to claim that it hasn't been over a >>>>>> decade of assoholic harassment, he should be able to produce hundreds of >>>>>> posts where he had a legitimate beef. This example and the previous >>>>>> example (already linked to in previous posts) obviously do not qualify. >>>>>> Someone might think that even a bumbling assoholic harasser would have >>>>>> multiple examples where his harassment was justified in some legitimate >>>>>> way, but Nyikos has never cared if he had any legitimate reason to >>>>>> harass me, and his degenerate record demonstrates that. Over a decade >>>>>> of harassment, and what does Nyikos have to show for it?
Nyikos should be required to produce any posts that Nyikos made to >>>>>> harass me for over a decade that he thinks were legitimate and had a >>>>>> positive outcome for the loser. If he ever had any legitimate reasons >>>>>> for doing what he has done he should have hundreds of examples, but he >>>>>> couldn't come up with any for the first 4 years of his harassment, and I >>>>>> don't recall any examples since. Even if Nyikos could scrounge up 1 or >>>>>> 2 examples (I doubt it) how sad would that be for over a decade of >>>>>> senseless harassment?
This post will likely be one of them that will be submitted to Grieg in >>>>>> the request to ban Nyikos from TO. It doesn't look like Nyikos is able >>>>>> to stop himself from doing what he has done since he came back to TO. >>>>>> Over a decade of this type of stupid senseless harassment should be >>>>>> enough for any sadistic asshole like Nyikos. I do not stalk Nyikos >>>>>> around TO. It is Nyikos that nearly always has to post his harassing >>>>>> posts to me. There is no reason for it to continue. If Nyikos can't >>>>>> control his assoholic tendencies he should be made to do so. It has >>>>>> been really sad that it takes putting Nyikos down like the rabid dog >>>>>> that he is in no uncertain terms until he reaches his limit for lying >>>>>> about the stupid junk that he posts. The harassment for over a decade >>>>>> is due to Nyikos being wrong about something in, probably, the first >>>>>> post he posted after his return. Nyikos had a, likely involuntary, >>>>>> absence, from TO for nearly a decade, and made his return Dec. 2010. >>>>>> For Nyikosian reasons he has had to lie about that post in anyway that >>>>>> he can, and has had to maintain his harassment due to just being wrong >>>>>> about something. It never gets any better because Nyikos just generates >>>>>> more that he has to lie about in his sadistic endeavor. This incessant >>>>>> harassment has never worked out well for Nyikos because there was never >>>>>> any legitimate reason for the harassment to start.
The lies and nonsensical harrassment continues, and if it doesn't stop I >>>>>> will be forced to formally get Grieg into this and start the process for >>>>>> getting Nyikos removed from TO. I do not harass Nyikos, and there is no >>>>>> sane reason for Nyikos to continue his sadistic behavior. He knows that >>>>>> he is a sadistic maniac because that is what he projects onto me when I >>>>>> am being the victim of his abuse. Over a decade of this type of
stupidity should be long enough for anyone. Nyikos obviously didn't >>>>>> care enough about the current topic to understand what he was harassing >>>>>> me about, and now just has to lie about the effort to continue his >>>>>> harassment. Enough is enough, and Nyikos should be banned if he can't >>>>>> restrain himself.
I have repeatedly told the asshole that I do not care about his issues >>>>>> with other posters. Why would anyone? Still in his last response he >>>>>> continues to whine about other posters even after being informed as to >>>>>> how assoholic such behavior is. It is just insane and it should stop. >>>>>> Anyone just has to look at other posters responding to the junk Nyikos >>>>>> writes about them in his posts that are supposedly addressing my posts. >>>>>> I do not even read most of what Nyikos posts on TO, so he has free reign >>>>>> to lie about me to other posters, but by this time my guess is that >>>>>> there aren't very many TO posters that do not understand what a lying >>>>>> asshole Nyikos has always been. There is no sane reason for Nyikos to >>>>>> harass me as he continues to do.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/SX7EUqzOAAAJ >>>>>>
Nyikos snips and runs from what he can't deal with, and that is obvious >>>>>> in the above link. He then lies about one of the issues that he
harassed me about. It is a stupid lie, and I can't figure out why
anyone would think that, that type of response was valid.
Nyikos initial harassing claims:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/7z8nZ0LbAgAJ >>>>>>
QUOTE:
130,000 years ago temperatures got warmerIf you have a source for this, did it actually cite studies done on >>>>>> those islands,
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels >>>>>>> that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian Ocean >>>>>>> and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood and >>>>>>> terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
or did it merely deduce these things from the average global sea level rise?
END QUOTE:
Nyikos obviously is harassing me about citations for temperature, more >>>>>> ice melting and sea levels rising higher than they are now. He should >>>>>> have countered with references claiming otherwise, but he would have >>>>>> found collaborating evidence if he had bothered to check things out himself.
Nyikos' bogus harassing response after getting reference:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/5ykTUUo6BgAJ >>>>>>
QUOTE:
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20 metersRon O talks about little birds instead of megafauna, leaving his earlier >>>>>> assertion high and dry.
higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and a second >>>>>>> one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure 3. I would >>>>>>> note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to occur if we do >>>>>>> not curb global warming.
END QUOTE:
Nyikos' response to having his stupidity noted:
Nyikos obviously posted this harassement with no regard to wanting to >>>>>> understand much of what he was harassing me about.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/SX7EUqzOAAAJ\ >>>>>>
QUOTE:
The Nyikosian denialI never said anything about either of those two topics. Ron O is in the >>>>>> grip of what is, at best, a bunch of false recollections.
that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong >>>>>>> about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted.
END QUOTE:
Nyikos just lies, and then claims that it is my false recollection that >>>>>> is the issue. Nyikos obviously is not interested in this topic enough >>>>>> to track his own harassing claims.
If this type of harassment continues I will ask for Nyikos to be banned >>>>>> from TO. The last instance should have been enough for anyone, but not >>>>>> for an assoholic poster like Nyikos.
The link below is the last example that Nyikos snipped out of his
responses. It occurred just before Nyikos took his recent 2 month
vacation. This current harassment just has fewer outright lies in it. >>>>>>
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ >>>>>>
If Nyikos can't control himself he should be banned from TO. I do not >>>>>> follow Nyikos around TO and harass the asshole, and there is no reason >>>>>> for him to harass anyone. Elsewhere Nyikos is comparing himself to >>>>>> Kleinman. Kleinman was just about an order of magnitude worse than >>>>>> Nyikos. Klienman started his harassment because he was wrong about >>>>>> something stupid. He claimed that he could use the product rule
(multiply the two individual probabilities to calculate the
probabilities of both occurring in the same cell) for two mutations >>>>>> occurring in the same cell lineage, but his example was that they were >>>>>> occurring in different generations. He was obviously wrong and his own >>>>>> reference told him that the product rule had issues when the events were >>>>>> temporally separated. I gave him the Behe and Snokes reference, and how >>>>>> they dealt with the issue of two mutations occurring in the same cell >>>>>> lineage, but Kleinman would not accept that he was wrong, and started >>>>>> lying about me, and claiming that I didn't know the math. Kleinman >>>>>> would post to me and tell the same lies in multiple posts in multiple >>>>>> threads nearly every day for around a year. It didn't matter what the >>>>>> topic of the thread was, the same harassing claims would be made over >>>>>> and over. Just a few weeks should have been enough, but Kleinman could >>>>>> not stop himself, and I asked that he be banned.
Nyikos is the same way except Nyikos has been less insane about his >>>>>> harassing efforts. Nyikos would post to me on any topic and lie about >>>>>> the past. It was insane. I had to create "REPOSTS" that contained all >>>>>> the evidence that Nyikos was lying about the past, and I reposted them >>>>>> when he started to lie about the past again. That should have ended a >>>>>> decade ago with his "Dirty Debating Thread" that Nyikos had started, in >>>>>> order to harass me. I had already stopped reading most of what Nyikos >>>>>> posted on TO and just basically dealt with what he posted to me. Nyikos >>>>>> had to come to me and tell me that I had to address the stupid lies that >>>>>> he was posting in the dirty debating thread. Nyikos has been lying >>>>>> about the issues he lied about in that thread for over a decade. His >>>>>> insane last effort made him quit harassing me about those issues (it has >>>>>> been around half a year, and Nyikos could start back up at anytime, but >>>>>> this has been the longest break in his harassment about those issues >>>>>> since Nyikos returned in Dec 2010) but Nyikos can't give up on the >>>>>> insane harassment.
This is the thread that has ended the Nyikosian harassment about the >>>>>> Dirty debating thread from back in Aug 2022. Since then Nyikos stopped >>>>>> incessantly lying about these issues, but he decided to create new >>>>>> stupidity to harass me about.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/0GJ7i2VKEbg/m/8VgLI1iOAAAJ >>>>>>
Really, it took Nyikos over a decade to stop harassing me about those >>>>>> issues. He may start up again, but his previous longest break that I >>>>>> recall was around 3 months. Nyikos has routinely reached his limit for >>>>>> lying about the same thing and will give it up for a month or two, but >>>>>> only restarts lying about the past once he thinks that it is OK to do so >>>>>> again. He has no reason to keep harassing me.
The harassment about the dirty debating issues should have ended long >>>>>> before the later part of last year. What consistently happens is that >>>>>> Nyikos resorts to broadening the topics that he has to lie about. He >>>>>> has always known that he was wrong about the involvement of the ID perps >>>>>> in the bait and switch, and all of the dirty debating nonsense
accumulated due to his propensity to lie about other issues in order to >>>>>> harass me about his being wrong about something as stupid as the ID >>>>>> perps running the teach ID scam. He got shut down hard last August and >>>>>> has been accumulating more stupidity to harass me about since. The >>>>>> harassment should have never started. Kleinman may have been an order of >>>>>> magnitude worse than Nyikos in terms of frequency, but Nyikos has been >>>>>> at it for over a decade. Enough is enough.
Probably the saddest thing about the Nykosian harassment over the years >>>>>> is that Nyikos is always shown to be the lying asshole. He has behaved >>>>>> this way for over a decade (since Dec 2010) and I do not recall anything >>>>>> that Nyikos has tried to harass me with ever accomplishing anything >>>>>> positive for Nyikos. This is due to the fact that Nyikos can't help >>>>>> himself and usually makes up the issue that he ends up lying about. >>>>>> Every single one of his posts involving the teach ID scam and the ID >>>>>> perp involvement have been a dead loss for Nyikos. I really can't
recall any instance where Nyikos was not shown to be the lying asshole >>>>>> that he is. In his projection of the subject he has claimed that he >>>>>> does it because he is a hate filled sadistic maniac that has to try to >>>>>> right some imaginary wrong done to him. Nyikos should make an effort to >>>>>> come up with any legitimate "knockdown" instances in order to defend his >>>>>> obnoxious behavior to Grieg. Nyikos could not put up any in the first 4 >>>>>> years of his harassment, and I do not recall any since.
As noted above, a decade ago during the Dirty Debating thread fiasco >>>>>> Nyikos started another thread to harass me claiming that he was going to >>>>>> put up three instances where he had knocked me down in the boxing ring. >>>>>> His first alleged knockdown blew up in his face because he made up the >>>>>> issue. Things did not occur the way that he had claimed. For weeks he >>>>>> ran from what he had done and even lied about me not posting a rebuttal >>>>>> to the thread. Nyikos couldn't identify any other possible knockdown >>>>>> events that had ever happened, and even though he claimed that he would >>>>>> produce the other two knockdowns in a week or two, years passed. His >>>>>> stated goal was to achieve a technical knockout, but no knockdowns >>>>>> existed. His second alleged knockdown was the event where he projected >>>>>> his sadistic behavior onto me. Nyikos had started a side thread and >>>>>> changed the title claiming that I had done something funny. He had >>>>>> obviously started the side thread to make fun of me, and he posted >>>>>> multiple posts claiming that what I had done was really funny but would >>>>>> not deliver the punch line. He seemed to be savoring every moment of
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 9:40:39 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/26/2023 8:28 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 8:50:39 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/26/2023 6:22 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 6:50:39 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/19/2023 4:23 PM, RonO wrote:
On 3/8/2023 7:37 PM, RonO wrote:It looks like I will have to ask for Nyikos to be banned for his
On 3/4/2023 9:09 PM, RonO wrote:
The last episode of the documentary series Frozen Planet II was just >>>>>>>>> on TV. They had how bad global warming is to the Arctic environment >>>>>>>>> and wild life. The ending claimed that we could change this and >>>>>>>>> limit global warming to an additional 1.5 degrees.
Species like penguins and polar bears are having a hard time, but it >>>>>>>>> should have been noted that things were worse during the last warm >>>>>>>>> period between glaciation. 130,000 years ago temperatures got warmer >>>>>>>>> than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels >>>>>>>>> that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian >>>>>>>>> Ocean and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood >>>>>>>>> and terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands. >>>>>>>>>
It seems that what we should be working on is determining how the ice >>>>>>>>> age species made it through that last environmental catastrophe that >>>>>>>>> has been occurring around every hundred thousand years for the last >>>>>>>>> million years. The intervals between warm periods have been getting >>>>>>>>> longer in the last half million years, and life on earth hasn't been >>>>>>>>> able to adapt to that very effectively. Most of the ice age
megafauna likely nearly went extinct the last warm period, and even >>>>>>>>> though their populations came back, the populations were likely not >>>>>>>>> healthy enough to survive this warm period. No wolly rhino,
mastodons, and mammoths exist anywhere. The giant bears and saber >>>>>>>>> toothed cats that fed on them didn't make it. Species like polar >>>>>>>>> bears and penguins may not survive this warm period, and could go the >>>>>>>>> way of the mammoth.
We likely need to figure out how these species survived the last warm >>>>>>>>> period that became worse than current conditions. More ice melted >>>>>>>>> last time and sea levels were as high as they are predicting for this >>>>>>>>> warm period. In order to maintain viable populations we need to make >>>>>>>>> those regions that allowed the survival of ice age species available >>>>>>>>> to these animals. More of their habitat was lost last warm period, >>>>>>>>> but the existing arctic species found somewhere to survive. We need >>>>>>>>> to figure out what those survival places were and make them available >>>>>>>>> to the species that need them.
For the penguin example, it is obvious that the last warm period the >>>>>>>>> Adele penguins had to find some place else to nest. Finding where >>>>>>>>> that was and relocating animals is likely the best way to get a large >>>>>>>>> enough population through this warm period.
The issue with man made global warming is the prediction that was put >>>>>>>>> out a few years ago that we might skip the next glacial period and >>>>>>>>> the warm period might last a hundred thousand years longer than usual.
The warm period is not the normal environment for temperate
latitudes. For the last million years most of the time the temperate >>>>>>>>> latitudes have had an arctic alpine environment. Arctic species are >>>>>>>>> adapted to what usually exists. The current environment has them >>>>>>>>> limited to the icy regions of the world, and their environment has >>>>>>>>> been rollercoasting for the last couple million years.
Ron Okimoto
I don't want to interact with a lying asshole like Nyikos, but I will >>>>>>>> put up the supporting evidence for what I had claimed during
discussions on this topic, in order to demonstrate what an asshole >>>>>>>> Nyikos is. Why wouldn't he look this stuff up for himself instead of >>>>>>>> being the asshole that he is and making the claims that he made? >>>>>>>>
Evidence that there were at least two warm periods within the last >>>>>>>> half million years where more ice melted than has melted at this time >>>>>>>> in the current warm period.
https://academic.oup.com/zoolinnean/article/186/3/666/5487031?login=false
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20 >>>>>>>> meters higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and >>>>>>>> a second one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure >>>>>>>> 3. I would note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to >>>>>>>> occur if we do not curb global warming.
The wiki for ice ages has a graph on temperature and amount of ice. >>>>>>>> It shows that it got warmer than the current warm period twice in the >>>>>>>> last 500,000 years. More ice melted 136,000 years ago, and the rail >>>>>>>> paper claims that sea level was 20 meters higher than today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32795436/
This paper is open access and notes the population decline of wooly >>>>>>>> rhinos over the past 1 million years after the cold periods got longer >>>>>>>> than 40,000 years. The same trend was noted in the genomes of wooly >>>>>>>> mammoths. It wasn't just the ice age arctic and alpine species that >>>>>>>> were affected by the extension of the cold period. Temperate species >>>>>>>> such as peacocks, junglefowl and tigers show the same decline in >>>>>>>> effective population size over this time period. So the extended cold >>>>>>>> periods were hard on the temperate species (probably because their >>>>>>>> habitat was restricted for a longer period of time. The arctic >>>>>>>> species population decline was likely due to having a longer time to >>>>>>>> adapt to the arctic conditions only to have that habitat greatly >>>>>>>> reduced for a short, but devestating period of time. The rhinos, >>>>>>>> mastadon and mammoth didn't make it through this warm period, but >>>>>>>> their decline started a million years ago.
Popular science article on the rhino genome.
https://phys.org/news/2020-08-ancient-genomes-woolly-rhinos-extinct.html
Ron Okimoto
I will note that Nyikos does what he does just to harass me. He
obviously had no interest in this topic. His own projection has him >>>>>>> doing it because he is a sadistic hate filled maniac that thinks that he
is righting some wrong done to him in the past. Nyikos has always >>>>>>> brought it all onto himself. He has just added to the things that he >>>>>>> can't deal with in his failed attempts to lie about the past. No one >>>>>>> should have been subjected to the Nyikosian stupidity and harassment for
over a decade. It should be apparent that Nyikos only posted the junk >>>>>>> to harass me because he wasn't interested in the topic enough to read >>>>>>> the cited paper in order to figure out what it actually supported. >>>>>>>
This behavior should end. I do not stalk Nyikos around TO, and Nyikos >>>>>>> should not be allowed to continue to do what he does.
Nyikios' last attempt at harassment that should have been his last for >>>>>>> any sane individual.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ >>>>>>>
This type of stupidity due to Nyikosian harassment should never take >>>>>>> place, but it just never ends.
I didn't expect Nyikos to address these two points because he was just >>>>>>> plain wrong about them, and his nit picking doesn't do much to change >>>>>>> that fact. I don't care about his issues with other posters. His first >>>>>>> attempted response was pathetic, and he did try again. He did nothing >>>>>>> to counter the fact that there were at least two warm interglacial >>>>>>> periods before the current one where the temperatures were higher and >>>>>>> more ice melted. His stupid flailing about being wrong and the fact >>>>>>> that he should have been able to figure it out for himself is just >>>>>>> stupid. He even acknowledges that the Wiki supports me, but he makes >>>>>>> some stupid comment about the inversion of the graph that simply doesn't
matter at all. His stupid comments about the rail extinction example is >>>>>>> just nonsense. I used that paper to demonstrate that during the last >>>>>>> interglacial sea levels were 20 meters higher then they are today, and >>>>>>> that more ice melted in the last interglacial. The Nyikosian denial >>>>>>> that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong >>>>>>> about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted.
For the rhino example the population decline did start more than a >>>>>>> million years ago, but so what? It still happened. Two interglacials >>>>>>> ago the temperatures did not get as warm as the current period, and the >>>>>>> species of rhino under discussion and some mammoths did come through >>>>>>> pretty well and they show an increase in effective population size >>>>>>> during the cold period before the last previous interglacial where >>>>>>> temperatures got higher than they are today and more ice melted than has
melted currently. If Nyikos had bothered to read the paper for
comprehension he would have understood that the authors admit that there
was a population crash during the last warm period that is not picked up
by their effective population size estimates. They cite a wooly mammoth >>>>>>> paper as an example of the population crash that they expected to >>>>>>> happen. They try to explain the long tail where the effective
population size estimates stay high before bottoming out to a low long >>>>>>> after the population had recovered during the last cold period. Their >>>>>>> explanation was that during the high temperature and low ice period >>>>>>> multiple small isolated populations survived the bottleneck, and when >>>>>>> they could expand out into more territory they interbred. They thought >>>>>>> that males moving between populations could accomplish a population >>>>>>> mixing that would reestablish genetic diversity that had been preserved >>>>>>> in the small isolated populations. In our paper that noted the decline >>>>>>> in genetic diversity of domestic chickens we stated the obvious
conclusion that we could recreate a population with nearly all of the >>>>>>> genetic diversity domestic chickens started with by crossing the extant >>>>>>> domestic breeds together. Each population had lost diversity over time >>>>>>> even as their total population increased because of how they were >>>>>>> propagated as small flocks in isolated villages, but each population had
retained a different bit of the original genetic variation, and if >>>>>>> combined would restore a lot of the genetic variation that domestic >>>>>>> chickens started with.
All this means is that the paper acknowledged that there had been a >>>>>>> severe population crash during the last interglacial that was not picked
up by their method of calculating effective population size. They also >>>>>>> admit that they can't explain why their estimate of effective population
size continues to decline for tens of thousands of years after the >>>>>>> population had likely regained a stable size of around 100,000 breeding >>>>>>> females. This decline is likely just a reflection of the population >>>>>>> crash that occurred before the population recovery because you can remix
the genetic variation, but as soon as you start crossing relatives you >>>>>>> are going to start loosing the genetic variation. For some reason their >>>>>>> methods do not pick up the population crash that they expected to >>>>>>> happen, and instead shows a gradual decline even after the bottle neck >>>>>>> was resolved and a large stable population was being maintained for 10s >>>>>>> of thousands of years during this period of decline. They could not >>>>>>> explain the long decline in effective population size and the final low >>>>>>> that did not reflect the larger population size estimate obtained by >>>>>>> other means. For some reason the population bottleneck during the >>>>>>> previous interglacial took a long time to manifest in the rhino genome, >>>>>>> and did not show a recovery until after the glacial maximum when the >>>>>>> population had actually recovered just a few thousand years after the >>>>>>> last warm period ended. They can't explain why the effective population >>>>>>> estimate continued to decline and bottomed out over a period when other >>>>>>> estimates indicated that a stable population of around 100,000 breeding >>>>>>> females was reestablished soon after the last warm period and this >>>>>>> population was relatively stable over a period of 100,000 years. >>>>>>>
So the Nyikosian response is the usual Nyikosian null response. What >>>>>>> Nyikos was wrong about, he is still wrong about. Nit picking and >>>>>>> outright stupidity will not support the harassment.
This harassment should stop. The only reason to continue the harassment >>>>>>> is the insane behavior of Nyikos. For whatever reason he has never been >>>>>>> able to deal with the fact that he has been wrong about multiple things >>>>>>> like the present examples. All the craziness with the ID scam was due >>>>>>> to Nyikos' first mistake when he was wrong about the Discovery
Institute's involvement in the bait and switch that has been going on >>>>>>> for over 20 years. He blames me for his bumbling stupidity and
dishonesty since. It is just nuts because he wouldn't have as much of >>>>>>> his assoholic behavior to blame me for if he had never started his >>>>>>> harassment due to simply being shown to be wrong about something. >>>>>>>
I maintain as little interaction with the lying asshole as is possible, >>>>>>> and if the baseless harassment continues Nyikos should be banned from >>>>>>> TO. I had enjoyed a fairly long break from the assoholic behavior >>>>>>> during the recent Nykosian vacation, and that break should be extended >>>>>>> indefinitely. If Nyikos can't control his assoholic behavior, he should >>>>>>> be stopped from doing it. Nyikos didn't care if he was wrong about the >>>>>>> junk, it was just harassment. He obviously didn't care enough about >>>>>>> being wrong to do what needed to be done in order to determine that he >>>>>>> was wrong, nor understand the paper that was used to counter his denial.
Just use the link and go back to the last such episode to determine >>>>>>> how tragically sad Nyikos has always been.
The last such Nykosian episode:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ >>>>>>>
I will likely be referring to this post to make my case in the future if
this harassment continues.
Ron Okimoto
obnoxious harassing behavior. If Nyikos wants to defend himself he >>>>>> should start looking for any harassing posts that had a positive outcome >>>>>> for him. There may be one or two, but my guess is that 99.9 percent of >>>>>> Nyikos' posts to me have contained senseless harassing material. All >>>>>> his lies about the past never worked out for him, so around 80 to 90% of >>>>>> his harassing posts over the last decade have been a dead loss for >>>>>> Nyikos. It is apparent that it has been pretty much all harassment >>>>>> because around a year after Nyikos' return; a year of his senseless >>>>>> stupidity and lies about the Discovery Institute and the creationist ID >>>>>> scam, Nyikos claimed that he had knocked me down 3 times. He claimed >>>>>> that he would post the knockdowns within a couple weeks of his posting >>>>>> his initial knockdown and claims of having two more to post. So even to >>>>>> Nyikos his efforts were just harassment and trying to knock me down. The >>>>>> sad thing is that Nyikos could not find anything in that years worth of >>>>>> harassing posts that he could list as a win for him. He had always just >>>>>> obfuscated the issue, run and or lied to his limit for lying. Nyikos >>>>>> kept claiming that the knockdowns were still coming for around 3 years, >>>>>> and never produced anything that could be considered positive for
Nyikos. The claims ended with the Nyikosian claim that he had delivered >>>>>> the third knockdown, but Nyikos would not provide a link nor tell me >>>>>> where the post was supposed to be. It had been 3 additional years of >>>>>> assoholic harassing posts, and they all turned out like the current >>>>>> example. Nyikos never got any better as the harassment has continued >>>>>> for over a decade. If Nyikos wants to claim that it hasn't been over a >>>>>> decade of assoholic harassment, he should be able to produce hundreds of >>>>>> posts where he had a legitimate beef. This example and the previous >>>>>> example (already linked to in previous posts) obviously do not qualify. >>>>>> Someone might think that even a bumbling assoholic harasser would have >>>>>> multiple examples where his harassment was justified in some legitimate >>>>>> way, but Nyikos has never cared if he had any legitimate reason to >>>>>> harass me, and his degenerate record demonstrates that. Over a decade >>>>>> of harassment, and what does Nyikos have to show for it?
Nyikos should be required to produce any posts that Nyikos made to >>>>>> harass me for over a decade that he thinks were legitimate and had a >>>>>> positive outcome for the loser. If he ever had any legitimate reasons >>>>>> for doing what he has done he should have hundreds of examples, but he >>>>>> couldn't come up with any for the first 4 years of his harassment, and I >>>>>> don't recall any examples since. Even if Nyikos could scrounge up 1 or >>>>>> 2 examples (I doubt it) how sad would that be for over a decade of >>>>>> senseless harassment?
This post will likely be one of them that will be submitted to Grieg in >>>>>> the request to ban Nyikos from TO. It doesn't look like Nyikos is able >>>>>> to stop himself from doing what he has done since he came back to TO. >>>>>> Over a decade of this type of stupid senseless harassment should be >>>>>> enough for any sadistic asshole like Nyikos. I do not stalk Nyikos >>>>>> around TO. It is Nyikos that nearly always has to post his harassing >>>>>> posts to me. There is no reason for it to continue. If Nyikos can't >>>>>> control his assoholic tendencies he should be made to do so. It has >>>>>> been really sad that it takes putting Nyikos down like the rabid dog >>>>>> that he is in no uncertain terms until he reaches his limit for lying >>>>>> about the stupid junk that he posts. The harassment for over a decade >>>>>> is due to Nyikos being wrong about something in, probably, the first >>>>>> post he posted after his return. Nyikos had a, likely involuntary, >>>>>> absence, from TO for nearly a decade, and made his return Dec. 2010. >>>>>> For Nyikosian reasons he has had to lie about that post in anyway that >>>>>> he can, and has had to maintain his harassment due to just being wrong >>>>>> about something. It never gets any better because Nyikos just generates >>>>>> more that he has to lie about in his sadistic endeavor. This incessant >>>>>> harassment has never worked out well for Nyikos because there was never >>>>>> any legitimate reason for the harassment to start.
The lies and nonsensical harrassment continues, and if it doesn't stop I >>>>>> will be forced to formally get Grieg into this and start the process for >>>>>> getting Nyikos removed from TO. I do not harass Nyikos, and there is no >>>>>> sane reason for Nyikos to continue his sadistic behavior. He knows that >>>>>> he is a sadistic maniac because that is what he projects onto me when I >>>>>> am being the victim of his abuse. Over a decade of this type of
stupidity should be long enough for anyone. Nyikos obviously didn't >>>>>> care enough about the current topic to understand what he was harassing >>>>>> me about, and now just has to lie about the effort to continue his >>>>>> harassment. Enough is enough, and Nyikos should be banned if he can't >>>>>> restrain himself.
I have repeatedly told the asshole that I do not care about his issues >>>>>> with other posters. Why would anyone? Still in his last response he >>>>>> continues to whine about other posters even after being informed as to >>>>>> how assoholic such behavior is. It is just insane and it should stop. >>>>>> Anyone just has to look at other posters responding to the junk Nyikos >>>>>> writes about them in his posts that are supposedly addressing my posts. >>>>>> I do not even read most of what Nyikos posts on TO, so he has free reign >>>>>> to lie about me to other posters, but by this time my guess is that >>>>>> there aren't very many TO posters that do not understand what a lying >>>>>> asshole Nyikos has always been. There is no sane reason for Nyikos to >>>>>> harass me as he continues to do.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/SX7EUqzOAAAJ >>>>>>
Nyikos snips and runs from what he can't deal with, and that is obvious >>>>>> in the above link. He then lies about one of the issues that he
harassed me about. It is a stupid lie, and I can't figure out why
anyone would think that, that type of response was valid.
Nyikos initial harassing claims:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/7z8nZ0LbAgAJ >>>>>>
QUOTE:
130,000 years ago temperatures got warmerIf you have a source for this, did it actually cite studies done on >>>>>> those islands,
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels >>>>>>> that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian Ocean >>>>>>> and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood and >>>>>>> terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
or did it merely deduce these things from the average global sea level rise?
END QUOTE:
Nyikos obviously is harassing me about citations for temperature, more >>>>>> ice melting and sea levels rising higher than they are now. He should >>>>>> have countered with references claiming otherwise, but he would have >>>>>> found collaborating evidence if he had bothered to check things out himself.
Nyikos' bogus harassing response after getting reference:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/5ykTUUo6BgAJ >>>>>>
QUOTE:
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20 metersRon O talks about little birds instead of megafauna, leaving his earlier >>>>>> assertion high and dry.
higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and a second >>>>>>> one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure 3. I would >>>>>>> note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to occur if we do >>>>>>> not curb global warming.
END QUOTE:
Nyikos' response to having his stupidity noted:
Nyikos obviously posted this harassement with no regard to wanting to >>>>>> understand much of what he was harassing me about.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/SX7EUqzOAAAJ\ >>>>>>
QUOTE:
The Nyikosian denialI never said anything about either of those two topics. Ron O is in the >>>>>> grip of what is, at best, a bunch of false recollections.
that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong >>>>>>> about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted.
END QUOTE:
Nyikos just lies, and then claims that it is my false recollection that >>>>>> is the issue. Nyikos obviously is not interested in this topic enough >>>>>> to track his own harassing claims.
If this type of harassment continues I will ask for Nyikos to be banned >>>>>> from TO. The last instance should have been enough for anyone, but not >>>>>> for an assoholic poster like Nyikos.
The link below is the last example that Nyikos snipped out of his
responses. It occurred just before Nyikos took his recent 2 month
vacation. This current harassment just has fewer outright lies in it. >>>>>>
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ >>>>>>
If Nyikos can't control himself he should be banned from TO. I do not >>>>>> follow Nyikos around TO and harass the asshole, and there is no reason >>>>>> for him to harass anyone. Elsewhere Nyikos is comparing himself to >>>>>> Kleinman. Kleinman was just about an order of magnitude worse than >>>>>> Nyikos. Klienman started his harassment because he was wrong about >>>>>> something stupid. He claimed that he could use the product rule
(multiply the two individual probabilities to calculate the
probabilities of both occurring in the same cell) for two mutations >>>>>> occurring in the same cell lineage, but his example was that they were >>>>>> occurring in different generations. He was obviously wrong and his own >>>>>> reference told him that the product rule had issues when the events were >>>>>> temporally separated. I gave him the Behe and Snokes reference, and how >>>>>> they dealt with the issue of two mutations occurring in the same cell >>>>>> lineage, but Kleinman would not accept that he was wrong, and started >>>>>> lying about me, and claiming that I didn't know the math. Kleinman >>>>>> would post to me and tell the same lies in multiple posts in multiple >>>>>> threads nearly every day for around a year. It didn't matter what the >>>>>> topic of the thread was, the same harassing claims would be made over >>>>>> and over. Just a few weeks should have been enough, but Kleinman could >>>>>> not stop himself, and I asked that he be banned.
Nyikos is the same way except Nyikos has been less insane about his >>>>>> harassing efforts. Nyikos would post to me on any topic and lie about >>>>>> the past. It was insane. I had to create "REPOSTS" that contained all >>>>>> the evidence that Nyikos was lying about the past, and I reposted them >>>>>> when he started to lie about the past again. That should have ended a >>>>>> decade ago with his "Dirty Debating Thread" that Nyikos had started, in >>>>>> order to harass me. I had already stopped reading most of what Nyikos >>>>>> posted on TO and just basically dealt with what he posted to me. Nyikos >>>>>> had to come to me and tell me that I had to address the stupid lies that >>>>>> he was posting in the dirty debating thread. Nyikos has been lying >>>>>> about the issues he lied about in that thread for over a decade. His >>>>>> insane last effort made him quit harassing me about those issues (it has >>>>>> been around half a year, and Nyikos could start back up at anytime, but >>>>>> this has been the longest break in his harassment about those issues >>>>>> since Nyikos returned in Dec 2010) but Nyikos can't give up on the >>>>>> insane harassment.
This is the thread that has ended the Nyikosian harassment about the >>>>>> Dirty debating thread from back in Aug 2022. Since then Nyikos stopped >>>>>> incessantly lying about these issues, but he decided to create new >>>>>> stupidity to harass me about.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/0GJ7i2VKEbg/m/8VgLI1iOAAAJ >>>>>>
Really, it took Nyikos over a decade to stop harassing me about those >>>>>> issues. He may start up again, but his previous longest break that I >>>>>> recall was around 3 months. Nyikos has routinely reached his limit for >>>>>> lying about the same thing and will give it up for a month or two, but >>>>>> only restarts lying about the past once he thinks that it is OK to do so >>>>>> again. He has no reason to keep harassing me.
The harassment about the dirty debating issues should have ended long >>>>>> before the later part of last year. What consistently happens is that >>>>>> Nyikos resorts to broadening the topics that he has to lie about. He >>>>>> has always known that he was wrong about the involvement of the ID perps >>>>>> in the bait and switch, and all of the dirty debating nonsense
accumulated due to his propensity to lie about other issues in order to >>>>>> harass me about his being wrong about something as stupid as the ID >>>>>> perps running the teach ID scam. He got shut down hard last August and >>>>>> has been accumulating more stupidity to harass me about since. The >>>>>> harassment should have never started. Kleinman may have been an order of >>>>>> magnitude worse than Nyikos in terms of frequency, but Nyikos has been >>>>>> at it for over a decade. Enough is enough.
Probably the saddest thing about the Nykosian harassment over the years >>>>>> is that Nyikos is always shown to be the lying asshole. He has behaved >>>>>> this way for over a decade (since Dec 2010) and I do not recall anything >>>>>> that Nyikos has tried to harass me with ever accomplishing anything >>>>>> positive for Nyikos. This is due to the fact that Nyikos can't help >>>>>> himself and usually makes up the issue that he ends up lying about. >>>>>> Every single one of his posts involving the teach ID scam and the ID >>>>>> perp involvement have been a dead loss for Nyikos. I really can't
recall any instance where Nyikos was not shown to be the lying asshole >>>>>> that he is. In his projection of the subject he has claimed that he >>>>>> does it because he is a hate filled sadistic maniac that has to try to >>>>>> right some imaginary wrong done to him. Nyikos should make an effort to >>>>>> come up with any legitimate "knockdown" instances in order to defend his >>>>>> obnoxious behavior to Grieg. Nyikos could not put up any in the first 4 >>>>>> years of his harassment, and I do not recall any since.
As noted above, a decade ago during the Dirty Debating thread fiasco >>>>>> Nyikos started another thread to harass me claiming that he was going to >>>>>> put up three instances where he had knocked me down in the boxing ring. >>>>>> His first alleged knockdown blew up in his face because he made up the >>>>>> issue. Things did not occur the way that he had claimed. For weeks he >>>>>> ran from what he had done and even lied about me not posting a rebuttal >>>>>> to the thread. Nyikos couldn't identify any other possible knockdown >>>>>> events that had ever happened, and even though he claimed that he would >>>>>> produce the other two knockdowns in a week or two, years passed. His >>>>>> stated goal was to achieve a technical knockout, but no knockdowns >>>>>> existed. His second alleged knockdown was the event where he projected >>>>>> his sadistic behavior onto me. Nyikos had started a side thread and >>>>>> changed the title claiming that I had done something funny. He had >>>>>> obviously started the side thread to make fun of me, and he posted >>>>>> multiple posts claiming that what I had done was really funny but would >>>>>> not deliver the punch line. He seemed to be savoring every moment of
On 3/27/2023 4:50 AM, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 9:40:39 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/26/2023 8:28 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 8:50:39 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/26/2023 6:22 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 6:50:39 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/19/2023 4:23 PM, RonO wrote:
On 3/8/2023 7:37 PM, RonO wrote:It looks like I will have to ask for Nyikos to be banned for his >>>>>> obnoxious harassing behavior. If Nyikos wants to defend himself he >>>>>> should start looking for any harassing posts that had a positive outcome
On 3/4/2023 9:09 PM, RonO wrote:
The last episode of the documentary series Frozen Planet II was just
on TV. They had how bad global warming is to the Arctic environment
and wild life. The ending claimed that we could change this and >>>>>>>>> limit global warming to an additional 1.5 degrees.
Species like penguins and polar bears are having a hard time, but it
should have been noted that things were worse during the last warm >>>>>>>>> period between glaciation. 130,000 years ago temperatures got warmer
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels
that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian >>>>>>>>> Ocean and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood >>>>>>>>> and terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands. >>>>>>>>>
It seems that what we should be working on is determining how the ice
age species made it through that last environmental catastrophe that
has been occurring around every hundred thousand years for the last
million years. The intervals between warm periods have been getting
longer in the last half million years, and life on earth hasn't been
able to adapt to that very effectively. Most of the ice age >>>>>>>>> megafauna likely nearly went extinct the last warm period, and even
though their populations came back, the populations were likely not
healthy enough to survive this warm period. No wolly rhino, >>>>>>>>> mastodons, and mammoths exist anywhere. The giant bears and saber >>>>>>>>> toothed cats that fed on them didn't make it. Species like polar >>>>>>>>> bears and penguins may not survive this warm period, and could go the
way of the mammoth.
We likely need to figure out how these species survived the last warm
period that became worse than current conditions. More ice melted >>>>>>>>> last time and sea levels were as high as they are predicting for this
warm period. In order to maintain viable populations we need to make
those regions that allowed the survival of ice age species available
to these animals. More of their habitat was lost last warm period, >>>>>>>>> but the existing arctic species found somewhere to survive. We need
to figure out what those survival places were and make them available
to the species that need them.
For the penguin example, it is obvious that the last warm period the
Adele penguins had to find some place else to nest. Finding where >>>>>>>>> that was and relocating animals is likely the best way to get a large
enough population through this warm period.
The issue with man made global warming is the prediction that was put
out a few years ago that we might skip the next glacial period and >>>>>>>>> the warm period might last a hundred thousand years longer than usual.
The warm period is not the normal environment for temperate >>>>>>>>> latitudes. For the last million years most of the time the temperate
latitudes have had an arctic alpine environment. Arctic species are
adapted to what usually exists. The current environment has them >>>>>>>>> limited to the icy regions of the world, and their environment has >>>>>>>>> been rollercoasting for the last couple million years.
Ron Okimoto
I don't want to interact with a lying asshole like Nyikos, but I will
put up the supporting evidence for what I had claimed during >>>>>>>> discussions on this topic, in order to demonstrate what an asshole >>>>>>>> Nyikos is. Why wouldn't he look this stuff up for himself instead of
being the asshole that he is and making the claims that he made? >>>>>>>>
Evidence that there were at least two warm periods within the last >>>>>>>> half million years where more ice melted than has melted at this time
in the current warm period.
https://academic.oup.com/zoolinnean/article/186/3/666/5487031?login=false
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20 >>>>>>>> meters higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and
a second one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure >>>>>>>> 3. I would note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to >>>>>>>> occur if we do not curb global warming.
The wiki for ice ages has a graph on temperature and amount of ice. >>>>>>>> It shows that it got warmer than the current warm period twice in the
last 500,000 years. More ice melted 136,000 years ago, and the rail >>>>>>>> paper claims that sea level was 20 meters higher than today. >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32795436/
This paper is open access and notes the population decline of wooly >>>>>>>> rhinos over the past 1 million years after the cold periods got longer
than 40,000 years. The same trend was noted in the genomes of wooly >>>>>>>> mammoths. It wasn't just the ice age arctic and alpine species that >>>>>>>> were affected by the extension of the cold period. Temperate species
such as peacocks, junglefowl and tigers show the same decline in >>>>>>>> effective population size over this time period. So the extended cold
periods were hard on the temperate species (probably because their >>>>>>>> habitat was restricted for a longer period of time. The arctic >>>>>>>> species population decline was likely due to having a longer time to
adapt to the arctic conditions only to have that habitat greatly >>>>>>>> reduced for a short, but devestating period of time. The rhinos, >>>>>>>> mastadon and mammoth didn't make it through this warm period, but >>>>>>>> their decline started a million years ago.
Popular science article on the rhino genome.
https://phys.org/news/2020-08-ancient-genomes-woolly-rhinos-extinct.html
Ron Okimoto
I will note that Nyikos does what he does just to harass me. He >>>>>>> obviously had no interest in this topic. His own projection has him >>>>>>> doing it because he is a sadistic hate filled maniac that thinks that he
is righting some wrong done to him in the past. Nyikos has always >>>>>>> brought it all onto himself. He has just added to the things that he >>>>>>> can't deal with in his failed attempts to lie about the past. No one >>>>>>> should have been subjected to the Nyikosian stupidity and harassment for
over a decade. It should be apparent that Nyikos only posted the junk
to harass me because he wasn't interested in the topic enough to read
the cited paper in order to figure out what it actually supported. >>>>>>>
This behavior should end. I do not stalk Nyikos around TO, and Nyikos
should not be allowed to continue to do what he does.
Nyikios' last attempt at harassment that should have been his last for
any sane individual.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ
This type of stupidity due to Nyikosian harassment should never take >>>>>>> place, but it just never ends.
I didn't expect Nyikos to address these two points because he was just
plain wrong about them, and his nit picking doesn't do much to change
that fact. I don't care about his issues with other posters. His first
attempted response was pathetic, and he did try again. He did nothing
to counter the fact that there were at least two warm interglacial >>>>>>> periods before the current one where the temperatures were higher and
more ice melted. His stupid flailing about being wrong and the fact >>>>>>> that he should have been able to figure it out for himself is just >>>>>>> stupid. He even acknowledges that the Wiki supports me, but he makes >>>>>>> some stupid comment about the inversion of the graph that simply doesn't
matter at all. His stupid comments about the rail extinction example is
just nonsense. I used that paper to demonstrate that during the last >>>>>>> interglacial sea levels were 20 meters higher then they are today, and
that more ice melted in the last interglacial. The Nyikosian denial >>>>>>> that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong
about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted.
For the rhino example the population decline did start more than a >>>>>>> million years ago, but so what? It still happened. Two interglacials >>>>>>> ago the temperatures did not get as warm as the current period, and the
species of rhino under discussion and some mammoths did come through >>>>>>> pretty well and they show an increase in effective population size >>>>>>> during the cold period before the last previous interglacial where >>>>>>> temperatures got higher than they are today and more ice melted than has
melted currently. If Nyikos had bothered to read the paper for >>>>>>> comprehension he would have understood that the authors admit that there
was a population crash during the last warm period that is not picked up
by their effective population size estimates. They cite a wooly mammoth
paper as an example of the population crash that they expected to >>>>>>> happen. They try to explain the long tail where the effective >>>>>>> population size estimates stay high before bottoming out to a low long
after the population had recovered during the last cold period. Their
explanation was that during the high temperature and low ice period >>>>>>> multiple small isolated populations survived the bottleneck, and when
they could expand out into more territory they interbred. They thought
that males moving between populations could accomplish a population >>>>>>> mixing that would reestablish genetic diversity that had been preserved
in the small isolated populations. In our paper that noted the decline
in genetic diversity of domestic chickens we stated the obvious >>>>>>> conclusion that we could recreate a population with nearly all of the
genetic diversity domestic chickens started with by crossing the extant
domestic breeds together. Each population had lost diversity over time
even as their total population increased because of how they were >>>>>>> propagated as small flocks in isolated villages, but each population had
retained a different bit of the original genetic variation, and if >>>>>>> combined would restore a lot of the genetic variation that domestic >>>>>>> chickens started with.
All this means is that the paper acknowledged that there had been a >>>>>>> severe population crash during the last interglacial that was not picked
up by their method of calculating effective population size. They also
admit that they can't explain why their estimate of effective population
size continues to decline for tens of thousands of years after the >>>>>>> population had likely regained a stable size of around 100,000 breeding
females. This decline is likely just a reflection of the population >>>>>>> crash that occurred before the population recovery because you can remix
the genetic variation, but as soon as you start crossing relatives you
are going to start loosing the genetic variation. For some reason their
methods do not pick up the population crash that they expected to >>>>>>> happen, and instead shows a gradual decline even after the bottle neck
was resolved and a large stable population was being maintained for 10s
of thousands of years during this period of decline. They could not >>>>>>> explain the long decline in effective population size and the final low
that did not reflect the larger population size estimate obtained by >>>>>>> other means. For some reason the population bottleneck during the >>>>>>> previous interglacial took a long time to manifest in the rhino genome,
and did not show a recovery until after the glacial maximum when the >>>>>>> population had actually recovered just a few thousand years after the
last warm period ended. They can't explain why the effective population
estimate continued to decline and bottomed out over a period when other
estimates indicated that a stable population of around 100,000 breeding
females was reestablished soon after the last warm period and this >>>>>>> population was relatively stable over a period of 100,000 years. >>>>>>>
So the Nyikosian response is the usual Nyikosian null response. What >>>>>>> Nyikos was wrong about, he is still wrong about. Nit picking and >>>>>>> outright stupidity will not support the harassment.
This harassment should stop. The only reason to continue the harassment
is the insane behavior of Nyikos. For whatever reason he has never been
able to deal with the fact that he has been wrong about multiple things
like the present examples. All the craziness with the ID scam was due
to Nyikos' first mistake when he was wrong about the Discovery >>>>>>> Institute's involvement in the bait and switch that has been going on
for over 20 years. He blames me for his bumbling stupidity and >>>>>>> dishonesty since. It is just nuts because he wouldn't have as much of
his assoholic behavior to blame me for if he had never started his >>>>>>> harassment due to simply being shown to be wrong about something. >>>>>>>
I maintain as little interaction with the lying asshole as is possible,
and if the baseless harassment continues Nyikos should be banned from
TO. I had enjoyed a fairly long break from the assoholic behavior >>>>>>> during the recent Nykosian vacation, and that break should be extended
indefinitely. If Nyikos can't control his assoholic behavior, he should
be stopped from doing it. Nyikos didn't care if he was wrong about the
junk, it was just harassment. He obviously didn't care enough about >>>>>>> being wrong to do what needed to be done in order to determine that he
was wrong, nor understand the paper that was used to counter his denial.
Just use the link and go back to the last such episode to determine >>>>>>> how tragically sad Nyikos has always been.
The last such Nykosian episode:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ
I will likely be referring to this post to make my case in the future if
this harassment continues.
Ron Okimoto
for him. There may be one or two, but my guess is that 99.9 percent of
Nyikos' posts to me have contained senseless harassing material. All >>>>>> his lies about the past never worked out for him, so around 80 to 90% of
his harassing posts over the last decade have been a dead loss for >>>>>> Nyikos. It is apparent that it has been pretty much all harassment >>>>>> because around a year after Nyikos' return; a year of his senseless >>>>>> stupidity and lies about the Discovery Institute and the creationist ID
scam, Nyikos claimed that he had knocked me down 3 times. He claimed >>>>>> that he would post the knockdowns within a couple weeks of his posting
his initial knockdown and claims of having two more to post. So even to
Nyikos his efforts were just harassment and trying to knock me down. The
sad thing is that Nyikos could not find anything in that years worth of
harassing posts that he could list as a win for him. He had always just
obfuscated the issue, run and or lied to his limit for lying. Nyikos >>>>>> kept claiming that the knockdowns were still coming for around 3 years,
and never produced anything that could be considered positive for >>>>>> Nyikos. The claims ended with the Nyikosian claim that he had delivered
the third knockdown, but Nyikos would not provide a link nor tell me >>>>>> where the post was supposed to be. It had been 3 additional years of >>>>>> assoholic harassing posts, and they all turned out like the current >>>>>> example. Nyikos never got any better as the harassment has continued >>>>>> for over a decade. If Nyikos wants to claim that it hasn't been over a
decade of assoholic harassment, he should be able to produce hundreds of
posts where he had a legitimate beef. This example and the previous >>>>>> example (already linked to in previous posts) obviously do not qualify.
Someone might think that even a bumbling assoholic harasser would have
multiple examples where his harassment was justified in some legitimate
way, but Nyikos has never cared if he had any legitimate reason to >>>>>> harass me, and his degenerate record demonstrates that. Over a decade >>>>>> of harassment, and what does Nyikos have to show for it?
Nyikos should be required to produce any posts that Nyikos made to >>>>>> harass me for over a decade that he thinks were legitimate and had a >>>>>> positive outcome for the loser. If he ever had any legitimate reasons >>>>>> for doing what he has done he should have hundreds of examples, but he
couldn't come up with any for the first 4 years of his harassment, and I
don't recall any examples since. Even if Nyikos could scrounge up 1 or
2 examples (I doubt it) how sad would that be for over a decade of >>>>>> senseless harassment?
This post will likely be one of them that will be submitted to Grieg in
the request to ban Nyikos from TO. It doesn't look like Nyikos is able
to stop himself from doing what he has done since he came back to TO. >>>>>> Over a decade of this type of stupid senseless harassment should be >>>>>> enough for any sadistic asshole like Nyikos. I do not stalk Nyikos >>>>>> around TO. It is Nyikos that nearly always has to post his harassing >>>>>> posts to me. There is no reason for it to continue. If Nyikos can't >>>>>> control his assoholic tendencies he should be made to do so. It has >>>>>> been really sad that it takes putting Nyikos down like the rabid dog >>>>>> that he is in no uncertain terms until he reaches his limit for lying >>>>>> about the stupid junk that he posts. The harassment for over a decade >>>>>> is due to Nyikos being wrong about something in, probably, the first >>>>>> post he posted after his return. Nyikos had a, likely involuntary, >>>>>> absence, from TO for nearly a decade, and made his return Dec. 2010. >>>>>> For Nyikosian reasons he has had to lie about that post in anyway that
he can, and has had to maintain his harassment due to just being wrong
about something. It never gets any better because Nyikos just generates
more that he has to lie about in his sadistic endeavor. This incessant
harassment has never worked out well for Nyikos because there was never
any legitimate reason for the harassment to start.
The lies and nonsensical harrassment continues, and if it doesn't stop I
will be forced to formally get Grieg into this and start the process for
getting Nyikos removed from TO. I do not harass Nyikos, and there is no
sane reason for Nyikos to continue his sadistic behavior. He knows that
he is a sadistic maniac because that is what he projects onto me when I
am being the victim of his abuse. Over a decade of this type of >>>>>> stupidity should be long enough for anyone. Nyikos obviously didn't >>>>>> care enough about the current topic to understand what he was harassing
me about, and now just has to lie about the effort to continue his >>>>>> harassment. Enough is enough, and Nyikos should be banned if he can't >>>>>> restrain himself.
I have repeatedly told the asshole that I do not care about his issues
with other posters. Why would anyone? Still in his last response he >>>>>> continues to whine about other posters even after being informed as to
how assoholic such behavior is. It is just insane and it should stop. >>>>>> Anyone just has to look at other posters responding to the junk Nyikos
writes about them in his posts that are supposedly addressing my posts.
I do not even read most of what Nyikos posts on TO, so he has free reign
to lie about me to other posters, but by this time my guess is that >>>>>> there aren't very many TO posters that do not understand what a lying >>>>>> asshole Nyikos has always been. There is no sane reason for Nyikos to >>>>>> harass me as he continues to do.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/SX7EUqzOAAAJ >>>>>>
Nyikos snips and runs from what he can't deal with, and that is obvious
in the above link. He then lies about one of the issues that he >>>>>> harassed me about. It is a stupid lie, and I can't figure out why >>>>>> anyone would think that, that type of response was valid.
Nyikos initial harassing claims:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/7z8nZ0LbAgAJ >>>>>>
QUOTE:
130,000 years ago temperatures got warmerIf you have a source for this, did it actually cite studies done on >>>>>> those islands,
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels >>>>>>> that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian Ocean
and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood and >>>>>>> terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
or did it merely deduce these things from the average global sea level rise?
END QUOTE:
Nyikos obviously is harassing me about citations for temperature, more
ice melting and sea levels rising higher than they are now. He should >>>>>> have countered with references claiming otherwise, but he would have >>>>>> found collaborating evidence if he had bothered to check things out himself.
Nyikos' bogus harassing response after getting reference:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/5ykTUUo6BgAJ >>>>>>
QUOTE:
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20 metersRon O talks about little birds instead of megafauna, leaving his earlier
higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and a second
one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure 3. I would
note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to occur if we do
not curb global warming.
assertion high and dry.
END QUOTE:
Nyikos' response to having his stupidity noted:
Nyikos obviously posted this harassement with no regard to wanting to >>>>>> understand much of what he was harassing me about.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/SX7EUqzOAAAJ\
QUOTE:
The Nyikosian denialI never said anything about either of those two topics. Ron O is in the
that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong
about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted.
grip of what is, at best, a bunch of false recollections.
END QUOTE:
Nyikos just lies, and then claims that it is my false recollection that
is the issue. Nyikos obviously is not interested in this topic enough >>>>>> to track his own harassing claims.
If this type of harassment continues I will ask for Nyikos to be banned
from TO. The last instance should have been enough for anyone, but not
for an assoholic poster like Nyikos.
The link below is the last example that Nyikos snipped out of his >>>>>> responses. It occurred just before Nyikos took his recent 2 month >>>>>> vacation. This current harassment just has fewer outright lies in it. >>>>>>
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ >>>>>>
If Nyikos can't control himself he should be banned from TO. I do not >>>>>> follow Nyikos around TO and harass the asshole, and there is no reason
for him to harass anyone. Elsewhere Nyikos is comparing himself to >>>>>> Kleinman. Kleinman was just about an order of magnitude worse than >>>>>> Nyikos. Klienman started his harassment because he was wrong about >>>>>> something stupid. He claimed that he could use the product rule >>>>>> (multiply the two individual probabilities to calculate the
probabilities of both occurring in the same cell) for two mutations >>>>>> occurring in the same cell lineage, but his example was that they were
occurring in different generations. He was obviously wrong and his own
reference told him that the product rule had issues when the events were
temporally separated. I gave him the Behe and Snokes reference, and how
they dealt with the issue of two mutations occurring in the same cell >>>>>> lineage, but Kleinman would not accept that he was wrong, and started >>>>>> lying about me, and claiming that I didn't know the math. Kleinman >>>>>> would post to me and tell the same lies in multiple posts in multiple >>>>>> threads nearly every day for around a year. It didn't matter what the >>>>>> topic of the thread was, the same harassing claims would be made over >>>>>> and over. Just a few weeks should have been enough, but Kleinman could
not stop himself, and I asked that he be banned.
Nyikos is the same way except Nyikos has been less insane about his >>>>>> harassing efforts. Nyikos would post to me on any topic and lie about >>>>>> the past. It was insane. I had to create "REPOSTS" that contained all >>>>>> the evidence that Nyikos was lying about the past, and I reposted them
when he started to lie about the past again. That should have ended a >>>>>> decade ago with his "Dirty Debating Thread" that Nyikos had started, in
order to harass me. I had already stopped reading most of what Nyikos >>>>>> posted on TO and just basically dealt with what he posted to me. Nyikos
had to come to me and tell me that I had to address the stupid lies that
he was posting in the dirty debating thread. Nyikos has been lying >>>>>> about the issues he lied about in that thread for over a decade. His >>>>>> insane last effort made him quit harassing me about those issues (it has
been around half a year, and Nyikos could start back up at anytime, but
this has been the longest break in his harassment about those issues >>>>>> since Nyikos returned in Dec 2010) but Nyikos can't give up on the >>>>>> insane harassment.
This is the thread that has ended the Nyikosian harassment about the >>>>>> Dirty debating thread from back in Aug 2022. Since then Nyikos stopped
incessantly lying about these issues, but he decided to create new >>>>>> stupidity to harass me about.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/0GJ7i2VKEbg/m/8VgLI1iOAAAJ >>>>>>
Really, it took Nyikos over a decade to stop harassing me about those >>>>>> issues. He may start up again, but his previous longest break that I >>>>>> recall was around 3 months. Nyikos has routinely reached his limit for
lying about the same thing and will give it up for a month or two, but
only restarts lying about the past once he thinks that it is OK to do so
again. He has no reason to keep harassing me.
The harassment about the dirty debating issues should have ended long >>>>>> before the later part of last year. What consistently happens is that >>>>>> Nyikos resorts to broadening the topics that he has to lie about. He >>>>>> has always known that he was wrong about the involvement of the ID perps
in the bait and switch, and all of the dirty debating nonsense
accumulated due to his propensity to lie about other issues in order to
harass me about his being wrong about something as stupid as the ID >>>>>> perps running the teach ID scam. He got shut down hard last August and
has been accumulating more stupidity to harass me about since. The >>>>>> harassment should have never started. Kleinman may have been an order of
magnitude worse than Nyikos in terms of frequency, but Nyikos has been
at it for over a decade. Enough is enough.
Probably the saddest thing about the Nykosian harassment over the years
is that Nyikos is always shown to be the lying asshole. He has behaved
this way for over a decade (since Dec 2010) and I do not recall anything
that Nyikos has tried to harass me with ever accomplishing anything >>>>>> positive for Nyikos. This is due to the fact that Nyikos can't help >>>>>> himself and usually makes up the issue that he ends up lying about. >>>>>> Every single one of his posts involving the teach ID scam and the ID >>>>>> perp involvement have been a dead loss for Nyikos. I really can't >>>>>> recall any instance where Nyikos was not shown to be the lying asshole
that he is. In his projection of the subject he has claimed that he >>>>>> does it because he is a hate filled sadistic maniac that has to try to
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 08:33:54 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by jillery <[email protected]>:
It's curious the following inspires no cries of "off-topic" orJust can't let it drop, can you?
"killfiles are your friend" or "burning irony" from the peanut
gallery.
Glenn's history of accusing you of being an atheist goes a long way back,
and I have never been party to it, and I have told him so long before the
December post from which you are quoting.
Your response to that:
"Nah, being an apostate Catholic is adequate for that."
I glossed over Glenn's use of the word "fact," knowing that he was just expressing an
opinion of his which I don't share. He had earlier seen me express a *suspicion*
that you are an apostate Catholic.
Glenn has enough common sense to factor this background into
a realization that my intended message had to do with one of the
many reasons why lame crap is tolerated by the dominant clique in talk.origins,
just as being an atheist would be.
------------------------------------------------------------------
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/m3D7t5Ija0A/m/8PWtuFFCBQAJ
Date: December 19.
Message-ID: [email protected]
Me to you:
... at the end of a long barrage of challenges and questions, all of which I answered except the last:
"Identify where I have renounced my Catholic faith to become an
apostate (waiting since 16 Dec)"
Your response:
"I don't do things on your timetable. I'm saving this one for later."
===========================================
This was to remind you of your nasty habit of calling something a lie
if one does not justify it within a time frame of your (usually private) >choosing. Your reaction illustrated that well:
######################################
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/m3D7t5Ija0A/m/KjMvB-FgBQAJ
I don't do things on your timetable. I'm saving this one for later.
Bullshit, you have absolutely nothing to keep for later to justify you >calling me an apostate Catholic. That response is an epitomic
demosnstration that you are just a lying blowhard.
##########################################
Any blowhard could make a claim like your first sentence,
and thereby conclude a second sentence like yours
from the claim. That is a Begging The Question fallacy.
Compare: "You have absolutely nothing to keep for later to justify
that humans are descended from apes." Anyone saying this could
then proceed to the same second sentence you used, by the same logic.
Fact is, one does not have to publicly renounce one's Catholic affiliation >to be an apostate. In fact, the worst kind of apostasy is to privately >conclude that the Catholic religion is bullshit, while also asserting that >one is a Catholic. It was such people that the Spanish Inquisition targeted, >not people who admitted to a different religion (usually either Judaism or Islam) publicly.
And there is plenty of reason to think that you have no use for Jesus's >commandment against bearing false witness.
And next week,
I will go
through a lot of what you've posted to demonstrate your cavalier attitude >towards that commandment.
By the way, I wonder whether you approve of Ron O's response to me on this thread.Standard Nyikos Tactic #2 - try to divert the discussion to something
else.
You haven't a leg to stand on here. I had already told you to re-read what I wrote--
you did NOT quote it back then -- and you are ignoring the words "By the way".
Also, you snipped what I wrote after that, which clearly showed you had no need
to even acknowledge what you call a "diversion":
"Of course, telling us one way or the other about your opinion is completely optional."
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/tFp2bNLHAwAJ
I still recommend that you look at all three of Ron O's dealings with me on this thread;
not only will you learn a thing or two about the fascinating ups and downs in the
ice ages, but you may discover that you and Ron O have a lot in common.
Peter Nyikos
He only has as much power over you as you give him.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 7:05:40 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote: [ mercy snip ]I agree with what you say here. The issue at hand, though, is the question of banning someone because they are annoying. I'm not really in favor of that. It's easy enough to ignore annoying posters. There are extreme cases that should be banned, say,
He only has as much power over you as you give him.The XKCD comic, https://xkcd.com/386/
"ARE YOU COMING TO BED?"
"I CAN'T. THIS IS IMPORTANT!"
"WHAT?"
"SOMEONE IS _WRONG_ ON THE INTERNET."
This medium, the history of talk.origins and its focus, they
do tend to cultivate that modality. Of course it goes deeper.
Somebody is wrong and a poster might start at the child
level and write back "your post is wrong and you're a
poopy-head." Luckily, most move beyond that phase.
Slightly more mature is "you're wrong and here's why."
This class of responses can vary widely depending on
the skill and temperament of the author. This dials in
levels of politeness, anger, condescension, arrogance,
erudition, and myriad more features. Some apply skills
to control those aspects to better serve their private
purposes in posting. That is predicated on developing
a coherent purpose and developing the skills to know
how your posts are likely to be received --- not the same
thing as your raw intent.
(For example, my intent is not to come across as some
self-important pompous ass, but I'll be making some
readers twitch a bit. )
Whatever people's original purposes, they evolve.
In particular, after you've composed your brilliant and
compelling rebuttal to that post full of errors, inevitably
your partner in correspondence will be unmoved. You
may try again, likely more than once, and that's when
the fever sets in.
How the hell can they continue to be wrong?
I EXPLAINED it to them, 3 times. I even used small
words. How is that even possible many people think.
Eventually, people develop private theories to explain
how and why people are not converted. But those
theories, as far as I've heard them, are all over the
map with many contradictions between them. It's rather
fascinating to watch.
As fallout from a different thread, I happened upon this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief_perseverance
A fascinating aspect of it is how some people leverage
people telling them that they are wrong as a mechanism
to further convince themselves that they are right,
especially if they 'know' something that makes them
think their antagonists are wrong in some transcendent
way (wrong political party, wrong religion, ...).
It seems like a good thing to ponder when deciding what
is one's purpose in posting, and in how to engineer the
style in which a post is delivered.
It is clearly jillery who mentions phrase "Killfiles are your friends" more >than anyone else. IOW spams about it.
I should fail to respond to your willfully stupid noise. Working on it
jillery <[email protected]> wrote:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 20:17:24 -0700, Bob Casanova <[email protected]>Well this has taken a rather unpleasant turn.
wrote:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 19:39:33 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by jillery <[email protected]>:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 09:13:26 -0700, Bob Casanova <[email protected]>No need for me to "finish" anything I didn't start; it was
wrote:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 08:33:54 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by jillery <[email protected]>:
It's curious the following inspires no cries of "off-topic" orJust can't let it drop, can you?
"killfiles are your friend" or "burning irony" from the peanut
gallery.
Don't start what you can't/won't finish.
your decision to restart it. Everyone knows you can't let it
drop; that chip on your shoulder is just too heavy.
<CrapSnip>
Yet another willfully stupid lie. You, Bob Casanova, are the one who
regularly spams "Killfiles are your friends". Don't blame me for what
you do, you blatantly willfully stupid liar.
This sub-thread has been specifically and exclusively about Peter's
lies about me. Jillery, who regularly complains about others diverting >discussions, jumps in and tries to divert into a discussion about the >behaviour of people not even involved in the wider thread, never mind
just this sub-thread. As I've noted before, her behaviour is becoming
ever less distinguishable from that of Nyikos.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 7:05:40?AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
[ mercy snip ]
He only has as much power over you as you give him.
The XKCD comic, https://xkcd.com/386/
"ARE YOU COMING TO BED?"
"I CAN'T. THIS IS IMPORTANT!"
"WHAT?"
"SOMEONE IS _WRONG_ ON THE INTERNET."
This medium, the history of talk.origins and its focus, they
do tend to cultivate that modality. Of course it goes deeper.
Somebody is wrong and a poster might start at the child
level and write back "your post is wrong and you're a
poopy-head." Luckily, most move beyond that phase.
Slightly more mature is "you're wrong and here's why."
This class of responses can vary widely depending on
the skill and temperament of the author. This dials in
levels of politeness, anger, condescension, arrogance,
erudition, and myriad more features. Some apply skills
to control those aspects to better serve their private
purposes in posting. That is predicated on developing
a coherent purpose and developing the skills to know
how your posts are likely to be received --- not the same
thing as your raw intent.
(For example, my intent is not to come across as some
self-important pompous ass, but I'll be making some
readers twitch a bit. )
Whatever people's original purposes, they evolve.
In particular, after you've composed your brilliant and
compelling rebuttal to that post full of errors, inevitably
your partner in correspondence will be unmoved. You
may try again, likely more than once, and that's when
the fever sets in.
How the hell can they continue to be wrong?
I EXPLAINED it to them, 3 times. I even used small
words. How is that even possible many people think.
Eventually, people develop private theories to explain
how and why people are not converted. But those
theories, as far as I've heard them, are all over the
map with many contradictions between them. It's rather
fascinating to watch.
As fallout from a different thread, I happened upon this: >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief_perseverance
A fascinating aspect of it is how some people leverage
people telling them that they are wrong as a mechanism
to further convince themselves that they are right,
especially if they 'know' something that makes them
think their antagonists are wrong in some transcendent
way (wrong political party, wrong religion, ...).
It seems like a good thing to ponder when deciding what
is one's purpose in posting, and in how to engineer the
style in which a post is delivered.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 8:40:39?AM UTC-4, Lawyer Daggett wrote:someone faking their way into a rape survivors group and then blasting it with a lot of violent misogyny. But just being annoying is not a good enough reason, in my view, to ban someone. Particularly from a group, one of whose purposes is, in theory, to
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 7:05:40?AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote: >> [ mercy snip ]I agree with what you say here. The issue at hand, though, is the question of banning someone because they are annoying. I'm not really in favor of that. It's easy enough to ignore annoying posters. There are extreme cases that should be banned, say,
He only has as much power over you as you give him.The XKCD comic, https://xkcd.com/386/
"ARE YOU COMING TO BED?"
"I CAN'T. THIS IS IMPORTANT!"
"WHAT?"
"SOMEONE IS _WRONG_ ON THE INTERNET."
This medium, the history of talk.origins and its focus, they
do tend to cultivate that modality. Of course it goes deeper.
Somebody is wrong and a poster might start at the child
level and write back "your post is wrong and you're a
poopy-head." Luckily, most move beyond that phase.
Slightly more mature is "you're wrong and here's why."
This class of responses can vary widely depending on
the skill and temperament of the author. This dials in
levels of politeness, anger, condescension, arrogance,
erudition, and myriad more features. Some apply skills
to control those aspects to better serve their private
purposes in posting. That is predicated on developing
a coherent purpose and developing the skills to know
how your posts are likely to be received --- not the same
thing as your raw intent.
(For example, my intent is not to come across as some
self-important pompous ass, but I'll be making some
readers twitch a bit. )
Whatever people's original purposes, they evolve.
In particular, after you've composed your brilliant and
compelling rebuttal to that post full of errors, inevitably
your partner in correspondence will be unmoved. You
may try again, likely more than once, and that's when
the fever sets in.
How the hell can they continue to be wrong?
I EXPLAINED it to them, 3 times. I even used small
words. How is that even possible many people think.
Eventually, people develop private theories to explain
how and why people are not converted. But those
theories, as far as I've heard them, are all over the
map with many contradictions between them. It's rather
fascinating to watch.
As fallout from a different thread, I happened upon this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief_perseverance
A fascinating aspect of it is how some people leverage
people telling them that they are wrong as a mechanism
to further convince themselves that they are right,
especially if they 'know' something that makes them
think their antagonists are wrong in some transcendent
way (wrong political party, wrong religion, ...).
It seems like a good thing to ponder when deciding what
is one's purpose in posting, and in how to engineer the
style in which a post is delivered.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 8:40:39 AM UTC-4, Lawyer Daggett wrote:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 7:05:40 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
[ mercy snip ]
He only has as much power over you as you give him.The XKCD comic, https://xkcd.com/386/
"ARE YOU COMING TO BED?"
"I CAN'T. THIS IS IMPORTANT!"
"WHAT?"
"SOMEONE IS _WRONG_ ON THE INTERNET."
This medium, the history of talk.origins and its focus, they
do tend to cultivate that modality. Of course it goes deeper.
Somebody is wrong and a poster might start at the child
level and write back "your post is wrong and you're a
poopy-head." Luckily, most move beyond that phase.
Slightly more mature is "you're wrong and here's why."
This class of responses can vary widely depending on
the skill and temperament of the author. This dials in
levels of politeness, anger, condescension, arrogance,
erudition, and myriad more features. Some apply skills
to control those aspects to better serve their private
purposes in posting. That is predicated on developing
a coherent purpose and developing the skills to know
how your posts are likely to be received --- not the same
thing as your raw intent.
(For example, my intent is not to come across as some
self-important pompous ass, but I'll be making some
readers twitch a bit. )
Whatever people's original purposes, they evolve.
In particular, after you've composed your brilliant and
compelling rebuttal to that post full of errors, inevitably
your partner in correspondence will be unmoved. You
may try again, likely more than once, and that's when
the fever sets in.
How the hell can they continue to be wrong?
I EXPLAINED it to them, 3 times. I even used small
words. How is that even possible many people think.
Eventually, people develop private theories to explain
how and why people are not converted. But those
theories, as far as I've heard them, are all over the
map with many contradictions between them. It's rather
fascinating to watch.
As fallout from a different thread, I happened upon this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief_perseverance
A fascinating aspect of it is how some people leverage
people telling them that they are wrong as a mechanism
to further convince themselves that they are right,
especially if they 'know' something that makes them
think their antagonists are wrong in some transcendent
way (wrong political party, wrong religion, ...).
It seems like a good thing to ponder when deciding what
is one's purpose in posting, and in how to engineer the
style in which a post is delivered.
I agree with what you say here. The issue at hand, though,
is the question of banning someone because they are annoying.
I'm not really in favor of that. It's easy enough to ignore
annoying posters. There are extreme cases that should
be banned, say, someone faking their way into a rape
survivors group and then blasting it with a lot of violent
misogyny. But just being annoying is not a good enough
reason, in my view, to ban someone. Particularly from
a group, one of whose purposes is, in theory, to distract
the most repetitive and annoying posters away from
other more scientifically serious groups.
On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 21:09:05 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
=====================================
Message-ID: [email protected]
Google groups masks these message-id's because the @ makes the software >treat them like email addresses. The ellipsis hides a lot this time: >-b316-cace6095398an
Incorrect.
GG masks email addresses, and fails to distinguish them
from Usenet message-ids, for their own arbitrary reasons, which change
about as often as the weather.
My impression is Google puts their
most incompetent developers to work on GG, perhaps a consequence of
some perverse HR policy. Any software which doesn't correctly process
Usenet message-ids is crap Usenet software.
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 6:50:39 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:something negative about you. Anybody whose opinion is remotely worth thinking about will develop that opinion by reading your own posts, not posts that somebody else writes about you.
On 3/19/2023 4:23 PM, RonO wrote:
On 3/8/2023 7:37 PM, RonO wrote:It looks like I will have to ask for Nyikos to be banned for his
On 3/4/2023 9:09 PM, RonO wrote:
The last episode of the documentary series Frozen Planet II was just >>>>> on TV. They had how bad global warming is to the Arctic environment >>>>> and wild life. The ending claimed that we could change this and
limit global warming to an additional 1.5 degrees.
Species like penguins and polar bears are having a hard time, but it >>>>> should have been noted that things were worse during the last warm
period between glaciation. 130,000 years ago temperatures got warmer >>>>> than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels >>>>> that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian
Ocean and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood
and terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
It seems that what we should be working on is determining how the ice >>>>> age species made it through that last environmental catastrophe that >>>>> has been occurring around every hundred thousand years for the last
million years. The intervals between warm periods have been getting >>>>> longer in the last half million years, and life on earth hasn't been >>>>> able to adapt to that very effectively. Most of the ice age
megafauna likely nearly went extinct the last warm period, and even
though their populations came back, the populations were likely not
healthy enough to survive this warm period. No wolly rhino,
mastodons, and mammoths exist anywhere. The giant bears and saber
toothed cats that fed on them didn't make it. Species like polar
bears and penguins may not survive this warm period, and could go the >>>>> way of the mammoth.
We likely need to figure out how these species survived the last warm >>>>> period that became worse than current conditions. More ice melted
last time and sea levels were as high as they are predicting for this >>>>> warm period. In order to maintain viable populations we need to make >>>>> those regions that allowed the survival of ice age species available >>>>> to these animals. More of their habitat was lost last warm period,
but the existing arctic species found somewhere to survive. We need >>>>> to figure out what those survival places were and make them available >>>>> to the species that need them.
For the penguin example, it is obvious that the last warm period the >>>>> Adele penguins had to find some place else to nest. Finding where
that was and relocating animals is likely the best way to get a large >>>>> enough population through this warm period.
The issue with man made global warming is the prediction that was put >>>>> out a few years ago that we might skip the next glacial period and
the warm period might last a hundred thousand years longer than usual. >>>>>
The warm period is not the normal environment for temperate
latitudes. For the last million years most of the time the temperate >>>>> latitudes have had an arctic alpine environment. Arctic species are >>>>> adapted to what usually exists. The current environment has them
limited to the icy regions of the world, and their environment has
been rollercoasting for the last couple million years.
Ron Okimoto
I don't want to interact with a lying asshole like Nyikos, but I will
put up the supporting evidence for what I had claimed during
discussions on this topic, in order to demonstrate what an asshole
Nyikos is. Why wouldn't he look this stuff up for himself instead of
being the asshole that he is and making the claims that he made?
Evidence that there were at least two warm periods within the last
half million years where more ice melted than has melted at this time
in the current warm period.
https://academic.oup.com/zoolinnean/article/186/3/666/5487031?login=false >>>>
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20
meters higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and >>>> a second one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure
3. I would note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to
occur if we do not curb global warming.
The wiki for ice ages has a graph on temperature and amount of ice.
It shows that it got warmer than the current warm period twice in the
last 500,000 years. More ice melted 136,000 years ago, and the rail
paper claims that sea level was 20 meters higher than today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32795436/
This paper is open access and notes the population decline of wooly
rhinos over the past 1 million years after the cold periods got longer >>>> than 40,000 years. The same trend was noted in the genomes of wooly
mammoths. It wasn't just the ice age arctic and alpine species that
were affected by the extension of the cold period. Temperate species
such as peacocks, junglefowl and tigers show the same decline in
effective population size over this time period. So the extended cold >>>> periods were hard on the temperate species (probably because their
habitat was restricted for a longer period of time. The arctic
species population decline was likely due to having a longer time to
adapt to the arctic conditions only to have that habitat greatly
reduced for a short, but devestating period of time. The rhinos,
mastadon and mammoth didn't make it through this warm period, but
their decline started a million years ago.
Popular science article on the rhino genome.
https://phys.org/news/2020-08-ancient-genomes-woolly-rhinos-extinct.html >>>>
Ron Okimoto
I will note that Nyikos does what he does just to harass me. He
obviously had no interest in this topic. His own projection has him
doing it because he is a sadistic hate filled maniac that thinks that he >>> is righting some wrong done to him in the past. Nyikos has always
brought it all onto himself. He has just added to the things that he
can't deal with in his failed attempts to lie about the past. No one
should have been subjected to the Nyikosian stupidity and harassment for >>> over a decade. It should be apparent that Nyikos only posted the junk
to harass me because he wasn't interested in the topic enough to read
the cited paper in order to figure out what it actually supported.
This behavior should end. I do not stalk Nyikos around TO, and Nyikos
should not be allowed to continue to do what he does.
Nyikios' last attempt at harassment that should have been his last for
any sane individual.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ
This type of stupidity due to Nyikosian harassment should never take
place, but it just never ends.
I didn't expect Nyikos to address these two points because he was just
plain wrong about them, and his nit picking doesn't do much to change
that fact. I don't care about his issues with other posters. His first >>> attempted response was pathetic, and he did try again. He did nothing
to counter the fact that there were at least two warm interglacial
periods before the current one where the temperatures were higher and
more ice melted. His stupid flailing about being wrong and the fact
that he should have been able to figure it out for himself is just
stupid. He even acknowledges that the Wiki supports me, but he makes
some stupid comment about the inversion of the graph that simply doesn't >>> matter at all. His stupid comments about the rail extinction example is >>> just nonsense. I used that paper to demonstrate that during the last
interglacial sea levels were 20 meters higher then they are today, and
that more ice melted in the last interglacial. The Nyikosian denial
that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong
about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted.
For the rhino example the population decline did start more than a
million years ago, but so what? It still happened. Two interglacials
ago the temperatures did not get as warm as the current period, and the
species of rhino under discussion and some mammoths did come through
pretty well and they show an increase in effective population size
during the cold period before the last previous interglacial where
temperatures got higher than they are today and more ice melted than has >>> melted currently. If Nyikos had bothered to read the paper for
comprehension he would have understood that the authors admit that there >>> was a population crash during the last warm period that is not picked up >>> by their effective population size estimates. They cite a wooly mammoth >>> paper as an example of the population crash that they expected to
happen. They try to explain the long tail where the effective
population size estimates stay high before bottoming out to a low long
after the population had recovered during the last cold period. Their
explanation was that during the high temperature and low ice period
multiple small isolated populations survived the bottleneck, and when
they could expand out into more territory they interbred. They thought
that males moving between populations could accomplish a population
mixing that would reestablish genetic diversity that had been preserved
in the small isolated populations. In our paper that noted the decline
in genetic diversity of domestic chickens we stated the obvious
conclusion that we could recreate a population with nearly all of the
genetic diversity domestic chickens started with by crossing the extant
domestic breeds together. Each population had lost diversity over time
even as their total population increased because of how they were
propagated as small flocks in isolated villages, but each population had >>> retained a different bit of the original genetic variation, and if
combined would restore a lot of the genetic variation that domestic
chickens started with.
All this means is that the paper acknowledged that there had been a
severe population crash during the last interglacial that was not picked >>> up by their method of calculating effective population size. They also
admit that they can't explain why their estimate of effective population >>> size continues to decline for tens of thousands of years after the
population had likely regained a stable size of around 100,000 breeding
females. This decline is likely just a reflection of the population
crash that occurred before the population recovery because you can remix >>> the genetic variation, but as soon as you start crossing relatives you
are going to start loosing the genetic variation. For some reason their >>> methods do not pick up the population crash that they expected to
happen, and instead shows a gradual decline even after the bottle neck
was resolved and a large stable population was being maintained for 10s
of thousands of years during this period of decline. They could not
explain the long decline in effective population size and the final low
that did not reflect the larger population size estimate obtained by
other means. For some reason the population bottleneck during the
previous interglacial took a long time to manifest in the rhino genome,
and did not show a recovery until after the glacial maximum when the
population had actually recovered just a few thousand years after the
last warm period ended. They can't explain why the effective population
estimate continued to decline and bottomed out over a period when other
estimates indicated that a stable population of around 100,000 breeding
females was reestablished soon after the last warm period and this
population was relatively stable over a period of 100,000 years.
So the Nyikosian response is the usual Nyikosian null response. What
Nyikos was wrong about, he is still wrong about. Nit picking and
outright stupidity will not support the harassment.
This harassment should stop. The only reason to continue the harassment >>> is the insane behavior of Nyikos. For whatever reason he has never been >>> able to deal with the fact that he has been wrong about multiple things
like the present examples. All the craziness with the ID scam was due
to Nyikos' first mistake when he was wrong about the Discovery
Institute's involvement in the bait and switch that has been going on
for over 20 years. He blames me for his bumbling stupidity and
dishonesty since. It is just nuts because he wouldn't have as much of
his assoholic behavior to blame me for if he had never started his
harassment due to simply being shown to be wrong about something.
I maintain as little interaction with the lying asshole as is possible,
and if the baseless harassment continues Nyikos should be banned from
TO. I had enjoyed a fairly long break from the assoholic behavior
during the recent Nykosian vacation, and that break should be extended
indefinitely. If Nyikos can't control his assoholic behavior, he should >>> be stopped from doing it. Nyikos didn't care if he was wrong about the
junk, it was just harassment. He obviously didn't care enough about
being wrong to do what needed to be done in order to determine that he
was wrong, nor understand the paper that was used to counter his denial. >>> Just use the link and go back to the last such episode to determine
how tragically sad Nyikos has always been.
The last such Nykosian episode:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ
I will likely be referring to this post to make my case in the future if >>> this harassment continues.
Ron Okimoto
obnoxious harassing behavior. If Nyikos wants to defend himself he
should start looking for any harassing posts that had a positive outcome
for him. There may be one or two, but my guess is that 99.9 percent of
Nyikos' posts to me have contained senseless harassing material. All
his lies about the past never worked out for him, so around 80 to 90% of
his harassing posts over the last decade have been a dead loss for
Nyikos. It is apparent that it has been pretty much all harassment
because around a year after Nyikos' return; a year of his senseless
stupidity and lies about the Discovery Institute and the creationist ID
scam, Nyikos claimed that he had knocked me down 3 times. He claimed
that he would post the knockdowns within a couple weeks of his posting
his initial knockdown and claims of having two more to post. So even to
Nyikos his efforts were just harassment and trying to knock me down. The
sad thing is that Nyikos could not find anything in that years worth of
harassing posts that he could list as a win for him. He had always just
obfuscated the issue, run and or lied to his limit for lying. Nyikos
kept claiming that the knockdowns were still coming for around 3 years,
and never produced anything that could be considered positive for
Nyikos. The claims ended with the Nyikosian claim that he had delivered
the third knockdown, but Nyikos would not provide a link nor tell me
where the post was supposed to be. It had been 3 additional years of
assoholic harassing posts, and they all turned out like the current
example. Nyikos never got any better as the harassment has continued
for over a decade. If Nyikos wants to claim that it hasn't been over a
decade of assoholic harassment, he should be able to produce hundreds of
posts where he had a legitimate beef. This example and the previous
example (already linked to in previous posts) obviously do not qualify.
Someone might think that even a bumbling assoholic harasser would have
multiple examples where his harassment was justified in some legitimate
way, but Nyikos has never cared if he had any legitimate reason to
harass me, and his degenerate record demonstrates that. Over a decade
of harassment, and what does Nyikos have to show for it?
Nyikos should be required to produce any posts that Nyikos made to
harass me for over a decade that he thinks were legitimate and had a
positive outcome for the loser. If he ever had any legitimate reasons
for doing what he has done he should have hundreds of examples, but he
couldn't come up with any for the first 4 years of his harassment, and I
don't recall any examples since. Even if Nyikos could scrounge up 1 or
2 examples (I doubt it) how sad would that be for over a decade of
senseless harassment?
This post will likely be one of them that will be submitted to Grieg in
the request to ban Nyikos from TO. It doesn't look like Nyikos is able
to stop himself from doing what he has done since he came back to TO.
Over a decade of this type of stupid senseless harassment should be
enough for any sadistic asshole like Nyikos. I do not stalk Nyikos
around TO. It is Nyikos that nearly always has to post his harassing
posts to me. There is no reason for it to continue. If Nyikos can't
control his assoholic tendencies he should be made to do so. It has
been really sad that it takes putting Nyikos down like the rabid dog
that he is in no uncertain terms until he reaches his limit for lying
about the stupid junk that he posts. The harassment for over a decade
is due to Nyikos being wrong about something in, probably, the first
post he posted after his return. Nyikos had a, likely involuntary,
absence, from TO for nearly a decade, and made his return Dec. 2010.
For Nyikosian reasons he has had to lie about that post in anyway that
he can, and has had to maintain his harassment due to just being wrong
about something. It never gets any better because Nyikos just generates
more that he has to lie about in his sadistic endeavor. This incessant
harassment has never worked out well for Nyikos because there was never
any legitimate reason for the harassment to start.
The lies and nonsensical harrassment continues, and if it doesn't stop I
will be forced to formally get Grieg into this and start the process for
getting Nyikos removed from TO. I do not harass Nyikos, and there is no
sane reason for Nyikos to continue his sadistic behavior. He knows that
he is a sadistic maniac because that is what he projects onto me when I
am being the victim of his abuse. Over a decade of this type of
stupidity should be long enough for anyone. Nyikos obviously didn't
care enough about the current topic to understand what he was harassing
me about, and now just has to lie about the effort to continue his
harassment. Enough is enough, and Nyikos should be banned if he can't
restrain himself.
I have repeatedly told the asshole that I do not care about his issues
with other posters. Why would anyone? Still in his last response he
continues to whine about other posters even after being informed as to
how assoholic such behavior is. It is just insane and it should stop.
Anyone just has to look at other posters responding to the junk Nyikos
writes about them in his posts that are supposedly addressing my posts.
I do not even read most of what Nyikos posts on TO, so he has free reign
to lie about me to other posters, but by this time my guess is that
there aren't very many TO posters that do not understand what a lying
asshole Nyikos has always been. There is no sane reason for Nyikos to
harass me as he continues to do.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/SX7EUqzOAAAJ
Nyikos snips and runs from what he can't deal with, and that is obvious
in the above link. He then lies about one of the issues that he
harassed me about. It is a stupid lie, and I can't figure out why
anyone would think that, that type of response was valid.
Nyikos initial harassing claims:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/7z8nZ0LbAgAJ
QUOTE:
130,000 years ago temperatures got warmerIf you have a source for this, did it actually cite studies done on
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels
that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian Ocean
and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood and
terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
those islands,
or did it merely deduce these things from the average global sea level rise? >> END QUOTE:
Nyikos obviously is harassing me about citations for temperature, more
ice melting and sea levels rising higher than they are now. He should
have countered with references claiming otherwise, but he would have
found collaborating evidence if he had bothered to check things out himself. >>
Nyikos' bogus harassing response after getting reference:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/5ykTUUo6BgAJ
QUOTE:
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20 meters >>> higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and a secondRon O talks about little birds instead of megafauna, leaving his earlier
one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure 3. I would
note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to occur if we do
not curb global warming.
assertion high and dry.
END QUOTE:
Nyikos' response to having his stupidity noted:
Nyikos obviously posted this harassement with no regard to wanting to
understand much of what he was harassing me about.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/SX7EUqzOAAAJ\
QUOTE:
The Nyikosian denialI never said anything about either of those two topics. Ron O is in the
that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong
about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted.
grip of what is, at best, a bunch of false recollections.
END QUOTE:
Nyikos just lies, and then claims that it is my false recollection that
is the issue. Nyikos obviously is not interested in this topic enough
to track his own harassing claims.
If this type of harassment continues I will ask for Nyikos to be banned
from TO. The last instance should have been enough for anyone, but not
for an assoholic poster like Nyikos.
The link below is the last example that Nyikos snipped out of his
responses. It occurred just before Nyikos took his recent 2 month
vacation. This current harassment just has fewer outright lies in it.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ
If Nyikos can't control himself he should be banned from TO. I do not
follow Nyikos around TO and harass the asshole, and there is no reason
for him to harass anyone. Elsewhere Nyikos is comparing himself to
Kleinman. Kleinman was just about an order of magnitude worse than
Nyikos. Klienman started his harassment because he was wrong about
something stupid. He claimed that he could use the product rule
(multiply the two individual probabilities to calculate the
probabilities of both occurring in the same cell) for two mutations
occurring in the same cell lineage, but his example was that they were
occurring in different generations. He was obviously wrong and his own
reference told him that the product rule had issues when the events were
temporally separated. I gave him the Behe and Snokes reference, and how
they dealt with the issue of two mutations occurring in the same cell
lineage, but Kleinman would not accept that he was wrong, and started
lying about me, and claiming that I didn't know the math. Kleinman
would post to me and tell the same lies in multiple posts in multiple
threads nearly every day for around a year. It didn't matter what the
topic of the thread was, the same harassing claims would be made over
and over. Just a few weeks should have been enough, but Kleinman could
not stop himself, and I asked that he be banned.
Nyikos is the same way except Nyikos has been less insane about his
harassing efforts. Nyikos would post to me on any topic and lie about
the past. It was insane. I had to create "REPOSTS" that contained all
the evidence that Nyikos was lying about the past, and I reposted them
when he started to lie about the past again. That should have ended a
decade ago with his "Dirty Debating Thread" that Nyikos had started, in
order to harass me. I had already stopped reading most of what Nyikos
posted on TO and just basically dealt with what he posted to me. Nyikos
had to come to me and tell me that I had to address the stupid lies that
he was posting in the dirty debating thread. Nyikos has been lying
about the issues he lied about in that thread for over a decade. His
insane last effort made him quit harassing me about those issues (it has
been around half a year, and Nyikos could start back up at anytime, but
this has been the longest break in his harassment about those issues
since Nyikos returned in Dec 2010) but Nyikos can't give up on the
insane harassment.
This is the thread that has ended the Nyikosian harassment about the
Dirty debating thread from back in Aug 2022. Since then Nyikos stopped
incessantly lying about these issues, but he decided to create new
stupidity to harass me about.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/0GJ7i2VKEbg/m/8VgLI1iOAAAJ
Really, it took Nyikos over a decade to stop harassing me about those
issues. He may start up again, but his previous longest break that I
recall was around 3 months. Nyikos has routinely reached his limit for
lying about the same thing and will give it up for a month or two, but
only restarts lying about the past once he thinks that it is OK to do so
again. He has no reason to keep harassing me.
The harassment about the dirty debating issues should have ended long
before the later part of last year. What consistently happens is that
Nyikos resorts to broadening the topics that he has to lie about. He
has always known that he was wrong about the involvement of the ID perps
in the bait and switch, and all of the dirty debating nonsense
accumulated due to his propensity to lie about other issues in order to
harass me about his being wrong about something as stupid as the ID
perps running the teach ID scam. He got shut down hard last August and
has been accumulating more stupidity to harass me about since. The
harassment should have never started. Kleinman may have been an order of
magnitude worse than Nyikos in terms of frequency, but Nyikos has been
at it for over a decade. Enough is enough.
Probably the saddest thing about the Nykosian harassment over the years
is that Nyikos is always shown to be the lying asshole. He has behaved
this way for over a decade (since Dec 2010) and I do not recall anything
that Nyikos has tried to harass me with ever accomplishing anything
positive for Nyikos. This is due to the fact that Nyikos can't help
himself and usually makes up the issue that he ends up lying about.
Every single one of his posts involving the teach ID scam and the ID
perp involvement have been a dead loss for Nyikos. I really can't
recall any instance where Nyikos was not shown to be the lying asshole
that he is. In his projection of the subject he has claimed that he
does it because he is a hate filled sadistic maniac that has to try to
right some imaginary wrong done to him. Nyikos should make an effort to
come up with any legitimate "knockdown" instances in order to defend his
obnoxious behavior to Grieg. Nyikos could not put up any in the first 4
years of his harassment, and I do not recall any since.
As noted above, a decade ago during the Dirty Debating thread fiasco
Nyikos started another thread to harass me claiming that he was going to
put up three instances where he had knocked me down in the boxing ring.
His first alleged knockdown blew up in his face because he made up the
issue. Things did not occur the way that he had claimed. For weeks he
ran from what he had done and even lied about me not posting a rebuttal
to the thread. Nyikos couldn't identify any other possible knockdown
events that had ever happened, and even though he claimed that he would
produce the other two knockdowns in a week or two, years passed. His
stated goal was to achieve a technical knockout, but no knockdowns
existed. His second alleged knockdown was the event where he projected
his sadistic behavior onto me. Nyikos had started a side thread and
changed the title claiming that I had done something funny. He had
obviously started the side thread to make fun of me, and he posted
multiple posts claiming that what I had done was really funny but would
not deliver the punch line. He seemed to be savoring every moment of
the extended trial, but when he finally produced what was "so funny", I
only had to point out that Google didn't work that way, so I could not
have been guilty of doing anything "funny". Nyikos went into his
sadistic hate filled rage, as if I had been the one trying to make fun
of him, and that was supposed to be his second knockdown. Around 3
years would pass before Nyikos informed me that he had posted the third
knockdown, but he wouldn't tell me where or give me a link. Nyikos
never provided any evidence that the third knockdown ever existed. The
whole 3 additional years of harassment had come to naught for Nyikos, he
could never come up with an instance where his harassment had actually
been about anything real for those 3 years and before. His harassment
has been like that for over a decade, and that is long enough.
If Nyikos wants to continue his harassment he should reflect on the fact
of how dismal his efforts have been for him. These posts are what will
be submitted to Grieg in order to support his banning from TO, so Nyikos
should reflect on the facts of the last decade of his stupid assoholic
harassment.
Nyikos can stop his harassment or he should be made to do so.
Ron Okimoto
Ron, just as was the case with Alan Kleinman, it is perfectly easy to ignore this guy. Just because somebody names you in a post does not mean you have to respond or pay attention in any way. Nobody thinks the worse of you because some third party says
I'm not a fan of your own posts myself, too high a ratio of contempt to content, but I see no reason to ask for you to be banned. It's perfectly easy to ignore what I don't find interesting to read. Use killfiles if you like, or just ignore the noise.Banning is overkill.
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 19:56:04 -0500, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by RonO <[email protected]>:
On 3/26/2023 6:29 PM, Bob Casanova wrote:The server is irrelevant; I also use ES. Agent has a viable
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 17:47:08 -0500, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by RonO <[email protected]>:
<snip a bunch-o-stuff>
Why not just ignore him, or (risking ire from parties
Nyikos can stop his harassment or he should be made to do so.
unknown for "reasons"), killfile him? Then he can't "harass"
you. Ignoring (or killfiling) assholes works just fine.
Hasn't been a viable option for eternal september, and I shouldn't have
to killfile anyone.
killfile option.
doesn't conform to your wishes.
He's quite able to "not post" to you. The question is
The asshole should be able to just not post to me.
I don't follow Nyikos around TO with a pooper scooper. It has never
been worthwhile reading the junk that he posts to other posters. Look
at this example. Nyikos was only interested in harassing me. He
obviously wasn't interested enough to even remember what he was
harassing me about, or he thinks that he can lie about it after the fact
when he understands how stupid he has been.
whether you're able to ignore posts made by assholes,
something I've been learning to do (with mixed success).
But FWIW, no one "posts to" anyone else; all posts are
public. All anyone can do is reference others, and the
"others" have the option of ignoring the posts by idiots.
[...] I do not harass Nyikos, and there is no
sane reason for Nyikos to continue his sadistic behavior. He knows that
he is a sadistic maniac [...]
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 09:13:26 -0700, Bob Casanova <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 08:33:54 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by jillery <[email protected]>:
It's curious the following inspires no cries of "off-topic" orJust can't let it drop, can you?
"killfiles are your friend" or "burning irony" from the peanut
gallery.
This sub-thread has been specifically and exclusively about Peter's
lies about me. Jillery, who regularly complains about others diverting >discussions, jumps in and tries to divert into a discussion about the >behaviour of people not even involved in the wider thread, never mind
just this sub-thread. As I've noted before, her behaviour is becoming
ever less distinguishable from that of Nyikos.
jillery <[email protected]> wrote:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 20:17:24 -0700, Bob Casanova <[email protected]>Well this has taken a rather unpleasant turn.
wrote:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 19:39:33 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by jillery <[email protected]>:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 09:13:26 -0700, Bob Casanova <[email protected]>No need for me to "finish" anything I didn't start; it was
wrote:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 08:33:54 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by jillery <[email protected]>:
It's curious the following inspires no cries of "off-topic" orJust can't let it drop, can you?
"killfiles are your friend" or "burning irony" from the peanut
gallery.
Don't start what you can't/won't finish.
your decision to restart it. Everyone knows you can't let it
drop; that chip on your shoulder is just too heavy.
<CrapSnip>
Yet another willfully stupid lie. You, Bob Casanova, are the one who
regularly spams "Killfiles are your friends". Don't blame me for what
you do, you blatantly willfully stupid liar.
On 3/26/2023 10:25 PM, Bob Casanova wrote:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 19:56:04 -0500, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by RonO <[email protected]>:
On 3/26/2023 6:29 PM, Bob Casanova wrote:The server is irrelevant; I also use ES. Agent has a viable
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 17:47:08 -0500, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by RonO <[email protected]>:
<snip a bunch-o-stuff>
Why not just ignore him, or (risking ire from parties
Nyikos can stop his harassment or he should be made to do so.
unknown for "reasons"), killfile him? Then he can't "harass"
you. Ignoring (or killfiling) assholes works just fine.
Hasn't been a viable option for eternal september, and I shouldn't have
to killfile anyone.
killfile option. And "shouldn't" is also irrelevant; reality
doesn't conform to your wishes.
Shouldn't is the best reason in this case. Nyikos has no grounds to
exist as he does on TO.
He's quite able to "not post" to you. The question is
The asshole should be able to just not post to me.
I don't follow Nyikos around TO with a pooper scooper. It has never
been worthwhile reading the junk that he posts to other posters. Look
at this example. Nyikos was only interested in harassing me. He
obviously wasn't interested enough to even remember what he was
harassing me about, or he thinks that he can lie about it after the fact >>> when he understands how stupid he has been.
whether you're able to ignore posts made by assholes,
something I've been learning to do (with mixed success).
Ignorance about the issue is your excuse.
Do you realize that the way
that the sadistic asshole has existed on TO for the last decade is by >reaching his limit for lying (Nyikos has some weird limit for doing
assoholic things, and he has some weird rules about how many times he
can do dishonest things in a thread. He also has a weird concept about
a lie having to be "self contained".). Nyikos will leave me alone for a >month or two where neither of us are posting to the other, but he has
some recovery point where the lies can start again, and he just starts
back up. I do not read the vast majority of posts that Nyikos puts up.
It has never been worth doing that. I do not follow Nyikos around with
a pooper scooper as it seems that some others tend to do. Nyikos just
has to lie and whine about multiple posters whenever he posts. It is
nuts, but that is Nyikos. I ignore all of that because everyone should
know what an asshole Nyikos is. What I have learned is that the fastest
way to get Nyikos to take his 1 or 2 month vacation from harassing me is
to put him down hard by demonstrating what he is doing, and demonstrate
what a lying asshole that he is. I should not have to do that in order
to get the asshole to leave me alone for a month or two. The situation
is that simple.
Nyikos can leave me alone for a month or two at a time in order to
recharge his sadistic lying meter, so he should be able to do it
indefinitely or be banned.
--
But FWIW, no one "posts to" anyone else; all posts are
public. All anyone can do is reference others, and the
"others" have the option of ignoring the posts by idiots.
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 20:17:24 -0700, Bob Casanova <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 19:39:33 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by jillery <[email protected]>:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 09:13:26 -0700, Bob Casanova <[email protected]>No need for me to "finish" anything I didn't start; it was
wrote:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 08:33:54 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by jillery <[email protected]>:
It's curious the following inspires no cries of "off-topic" or >>>>>"killfiles are your friend" or "burning irony" from the peanut >>>>>gallery.Just can't let it drop, can you?
Don't start what you can't/won't finish.
your decision to restart it. Everyone knows you can't let it
drop; that chip on your shoulder is just too heavy.
<CrapSnip>
Yet another willfully stupid lie. You, Bob Casanova, are the one who >regularly spams "Killfiles are your friends". Don't blame me for what
you do, you blatantly willfully stupid liar.
On 2023-03-26 10:25 PM, Bob Casanova wrote:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 19:56:04 -0500, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by RonO <[email protected]>:
On 3/26/2023 6:29 PM, Bob Casanova wrote:The server is irrelevant; I also use ES. Agent has a viable
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 17:47:08 -0500, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by RonO <[email protected]>:
<snip a bunch-o-stuff>
Why not just ignore him, or (risking ire from parties
Nyikos can stop his harassment or he should be made to do so.
unknown for "reasons"), killfile him? Then he can't "harass"
you. Ignoring (or killfiling) assholes works just fine.
Hasn't been a viable option for eternal september, and I shouldn't have
to killfile anyone.
killfile option.
As does Thunderbird (apparently used by Ron).
On 3/26/23 3:47 PM, RonO wrote:
[...] I do not harass Nyikos, and there is no sane reason for Nyikos
to continue his sadistic behavior. He knows that he is a sadistic
maniac [...]
You may want to consider that the second sentence quoted above
contradicts the opening clause of the first sentence.
(FWIW, Nyikos has his faults, but I personally don't think either
"sadistic" or "maniac" apply to him.)
And in another post, you said that Nyikos does not belong here. I disagree. His views on panspermia and cladistics are just the sort of
thing this group was created for.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 6:55:40 AM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/27/2023 4:50 AM, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 9:40:39 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/26/2023 8:28 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 8:50:39 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/26/2023 6:22 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 6:50:39 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/19/2023 4:23 PM, RonO wrote:
On 3/8/2023 7:37 PM, RonO wrote:It looks like I will have to ask for Nyikos to be banned for his >>>>>>>> obnoxious harassing behavior. If Nyikos wants to defend himself he >>>>>>>> should start looking for any harassing posts that had a positive outcome
On 3/4/2023 9:09 PM, RonO wrote:
The last episode of the documentary series Frozen Planet II was just
on TV. They had how bad global warming is to the Arctic environment >>>>>>>>>>> and wild life. The ending claimed that we could change this and >>>>>>>>>>> limit global warming to an additional 1.5 degrees.
Species like penguins and polar bears are having a hard time, but it
should have been noted that things were worse during the last warm >>>>>>>>>>> period between glaciation. 130,000 years ago temperatures got warmer
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels
that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian >>>>>>>>>>> Ocean and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood >>>>>>>>>>> and terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands. >>>>>>>>>>>
It seems that what we should be working on is determining how the ice
age species made it through that last environmental catastrophe that
has been occurring around every hundred thousand years for the last >>>>>>>>>>> million years. The intervals between warm periods have been getting >>>>>>>>>>> longer in the last half million years, and life on earth hasn't been
able to adapt to that very effectively. Most of the ice age >>>>>>>>>>> megafauna likely nearly went extinct the last warm period, and even >>>>>>>>>>> though their populations came back, the populations were likely not >>>>>>>>>>> healthy enough to survive this warm period. No wolly rhino, >>>>>>>>>>> mastodons, and mammoths exist anywhere. The giant bears and saber >>>>>>>>>>> toothed cats that fed on them didn't make it. Species like polar >>>>>>>>>>> bears and penguins may not survive this warm period, and could go the
way of the mammoth.
We likely need to figure out how these species survived the last warm
period that became worse than current conditions. More ice melted >>>>>>>>>>> last time and sea levels were as high as they are predicting for this
warm period. In order to maintain viable populations we need to make
those regions that allowed the survival of ice age species available
to these animals. More of their habitat was lost last warm period, >>>>>>>>>>> but the existing arctic species found somewhere to survive. We need >>>>>>>>>>> to figure out what those survival places were and make them available
to the species that need them.
For the penguin example, it is obvious that the last warm period the
Adele penguins had to find some place else to nest. Finding where >>>>>>>>>>> that was and relocating animals is likely the best way to get a large
enough population through this warm period.
The issue with man made global warming is the prediction that was put
out a few years ago that we might skip the next glacial period and >>>>>>>>>>> the warm period might last a hundred thousand years longer than usual.
The warm period is not the normal environment for temperate >>>>>>>>>>> latitudes. For the last million years most of the time the temperate
latitudes have had an arctic alpine environment. Arctic species are >>>>>>>>>>> adapted to what usually exists. The current environment has them >>>>>>>>>>> limited to the icy regions of the world, and their environment has >>>>>>>>>>> been rollercoasting for the last couple million years.
Ron Okimoto
I don't want to interact with a lying asshole like Nyikos, but I will
put up the supporting evidence for what I had claimed during >>>>>>>>>> discussions on this topic, in order to demonstrate what an asshole >>>>>>>>>> Nyikos is. Why wouldn't he look this stuff up for himself instead of >>>>>>>>>> being the asshole that he is and making the claims that he made? >>>>>>>>>>
Evidence that there were at least two warm periods within the last >>>>>>>>>> half million years where more ice melted than has melted at this time
in the current warm period.
https://academic.oup.com/zoolinnean/article/186/3/666/5487031?login=false
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20 >>>>>>>>>> meters higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and
a second one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure >>>>>>>>>> 3. I would note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to >>>>>>>>>> occur if we do not curb global warming.
The wiki for ice ages has a graph on temperature and amount of ice. >>>>>>>>>> It shows that it got warmer than the current warm period twice in the
last 500,000 years. More ice melted 136,000 years ago, and the rail >>>>>>>>>> paper claims that sea level was 20 meters higher than today. >>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32795436/
This paper is open access and notes the population decline of wooly >>>>>>>>>> rhinos over the past 1 million years after the cold periods got longer
than 40,000 years. The same trend was noted in the genomes of wooly >>>>>>>>>> mammoths. It wasn't just the ice age arctic and alpine species that >>>>>>>>>> were affected by the extension of the cold period. Temperate species >>>>>>>>>> such as peacocks, junglefowl and tigers show the same decline in >>>>>>>>>> effective population size over this time period. So the extended cold
periods were hard on the temperate species (probably because their >>>>>>>>>> habitat was restricted for a longer period of time. The arctic >>>>>>>>>> species population decline was likely due to having a longer time to >>>>>>>>>> adapt to the arctic conditions only to have that habitat greatly >>>>>>>>>> reduced for a short, but devestating period of time. The rhinos, >>>>>>>>>> mastadon and mammoth didn't make it through this warm period, but >>>>>>>>>> their decline started a million years ago.
Popular science article on the rhino genome.
https://phys.org/news/2020-08-ancient-genomes-woolly-rhinos-extinct.html
Ron Okimoto
I will note that Nyikos does what he does just to harass me. He >>>>>>>>> obviously had no interest in this topic. His own projection has him >>>>>>>>> doing it because he is a sadistic hate filled maniac that thinks that he
is righting some wrong done to him in the past. Nyikos has always >>>>>>>>> brought it all onto himself. He has just added to the things that he >>>>>>>>> can't deal with in his failed attempts to lie about the past. No one >>>>>>>>> should have been subjected to the Nyikosian stupidity and harassment for
over a decade. It should be apparent that Nyikos only posted the junk >>>>>>>>> to harass me because he wasn't interested in the topic enough to read >>>>>>>>> the cited paper in order to figure out what it actually supported. >>>>>>>>>
This behavior should end. I do not stalk Nyikos around TO, and Nyikos >>>>>>>>> should not be allowed to continue to do what he does.
Nyikios' last attempt at harassment that should have been his last for
any sane individual.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ >>>>>>>>>
This type of stupidity due to Nyikosian harassment should never take >>>>>>>>> place, but it just never ends.
I didn't expect Nyikos to address these two points because he was just
plain wrong about them, and his nit picking doesn't do much to change >>>>>>>>> that fact. I don't care about his issues with other posters. His first
attempted response was pathetic, and he did try again. He did nothing >>>>>>>>> to counter the fact that there were at least two warm interglacial >>>>>>>>> periods before the current one where the temperatures were higher and >>>>>>>>> more ice melted. His stupid flailing about being wrong and the fact >>>>>>>>> that he should have been able to figure it out for himself is just >>>>>>>>> stupid. He even acknowledges that the Wiki supports me, but he makes >>>>>>>>> some stupid comment about the inversion of the graph that simply doesn't
matter at all. His stupid comments about the rail extinction example is
just nonsense. I used that paper to demonstrate that during the last >>>>>>>>> interglacial sea levels were 20 meters higher then they are today, and
that more ice melted in the last interglacial. The Nyikosian denial >>>>>>>>> that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong >>>>>>>>> about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted.
For the rhino example the population decline did start more than a >>>>>>>>> million years ago, but so what? It still happened. Two interglacials >>>>>>>>> ago the temperatures did not get as warm as the current period, and the
species of rhino under discussion and some mammoths did come through >>>>>>>>> pretty well and they show an increase in effective population size >>>>>>>>> during the cold period before the last previous interglacial where >>>>>>>>> temperatures got higher than they are today and more ice melted than has
melted currently. If Nyikos had bothered to read the paper for >>>>>>>>> comprehension he would have understood that the authors admit that there
was a population crash during the last warm period that is not picked up
by their effective population size estimates. They cite a wooly mammoth
paper as an example of the population crash that they expected to >>>>>>>>> happen. They try to explain the long tail where the effective >>>>>>>>> population size estimates stay high before bottoming out to a low long
after the population had recovered during the last cold period. Their >>>>>>>>> explanation was that during the high temperature and low ice period >>>>>>>>> multiple small isolated populations survived the bottleneck, and when >>>>>>>>> they could expand out into more territory they interbred. They thought
that males moving between populations could accomplish a population >>>>>>>>> mixing that would reestablish genetic diversity that had been preserved
in the small isolated populations. In our paper that noted the decline
in genetic diversity of domestic chickens we stated the obvious >>>>>>>>> conclusion that we could recreate a population with nearly all of the >>>>>>>>> genetic diversity domestic chickens started with by crossing the extant
domestic breeds together. Each population had lost diversity over time
even as their total population increased because of how they were >>>>>>>>> propagated as small flocks in isolated villages, but each population had
retained a different bit of the original genetic variation, and if >>>>>>>>> combined would restore a lot of the genetic variation that domestic >>>>>>>>> chickens started with.
All this means is that the paper acknowledged that there had been a >>>>>>>>> severe population crash during the last interglacial that was not picked
up by their method of calculating effective population size. They also
admit that they can't explain why their estimate of effective population
size continues to decline for tens of thousands of years after the >>>>>>>>> population had likely regained a stable size of around 100,000 breeding
females. This decline is likely just a reflection of the population >>>>>>>>> crash that occurred before the population recovery because you can remix
the genetic variation, but as soon as you start crossing relatives you
are going to start loosing the genetic variation. For some reason their
methods do not pick up the population crash that they expected to >>>>>>>>> happen, and instead shows a gradual decline even after the bottle neck
was resolved and a large stable population was being maintained for 10s
of thousands of years during this period of decline. They could not >>>>>>>>> explain the long decline in effective population size and the final low
that did not reflect the larger population size estimate obtained by >>>>>>>>> other means. For some reason the population bottleneck during the >>>>>>>>> previous interglacial took a long time to manifest in the rhino genome,
and did not show a recovery until after the glacial maximum when the >>>>>>>>> population had actually recovered just a few thousand years after the >>>>>>>>> last warm period ended. They can't explain why the effective population
estimate continued to decline and bottomed out over a period when other
estimates indicated that a stable population of around 100,000 breeding
females was reestablished soon after the last warm period and this >>>>>>>>> population was relatively stable over a period of 100,000 years. >>>>>>>>>
So the Nyikosian response is the usual Nyikosian null response. What >>>>>>>>> Nyikos was wrong about, he is still wrong about. Nit picking and >>>>>>>>> outright stupidity will not support the harassment.
This harassment should stop. The only reason to continue the harassment
is the insane behavior of Nyikos. For whatever reason he has never been
able to deal with the fact that he has been wrong about multiple things
like the present examples. All the craziness with the ID scam was due >>>>>>>>> to Nyikos' first mistake when he was wrong about the Discovery >>>>>>>>> Institute's involvement in the bait and switch that has been going on >>>>>>>>> for over 20 years. He blames me for his bumbling stupidity and >>>>>>>>> dishonesty since. It is just nuts because he wouldn't have as much of >>>>>>>>> his assoholic behavior to blame me for if he had never started his >>>>>>>>> harassment due to simply being shown to be wrong about something. >>>>>>>>>
I maintain as little interaction with the lying asshole as is possible,
and if the baseless harassment continues Nyikos should be banned from >>>>>>>>> TO. I had enjoyed a fairly long break from the assoholic behavior >>>>>>>>> during the recent Nykosian vacation, and that break should be extended
indefinitely. If Nyikos can't control his assoholic behavior, he should
be stopped from doing it. Nyikos didn't care if he was wrong about the
junk, it was just harassment. He obviously didn't care enough about >>>>>>>>> being wrong to do what needed to be done in order to determine that he
was wrong, nor understand the paper that was used to counter his denial.
Just use the link and go back to the last such episode to determine >>>>>>>>> how tragically sad Nyikos has always been.
The last such Nykosian episode:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ >>>>>>>>>
I will likely be referring to this post to make my case in the future if
this harassment continues.
Ron Okimoto
for him. There may be one or two, but my guess is that 99.9 percent of >>>>>>>> Nyikos' posts to me have contained senseless harassing material. All >>>>>>>> his lies about the past never worked out for him, so around 80 to 90% of
his harassing posts over the last decade have been a dead loss for >>>>>>>> Nyikos. It is apparent that it has been pretty much all harassment >>>>>>>> because around a year after Nyikos' return; a year of his senseless >>>>>>>> stupidity and lies about the Discovery Institute and the creationist ID
scam, Nyikos claimed that he had knocked me down 3 times. He claimed >>>>>>>> that he would post the knockdowns within a couple weeks of his posting >>>>>>>> his initial knockdown and claims of having two more to post. So even to
Nyikos his efforts were just harassment and trying to knock me down. The
sad thing is that Nyikos could not find anything in that years worth of
harassing posts that he could list as a win for him. He had always just
obfuscated the issue, run and or lied to his limit for lying. Nyikos >>>>>>>> kept claiming that the knockdowns were still coming for around 3 years,
and never produced anything that could be considered positive for >>>>>>>> Nyikos. The claims ended with the Nyikosian claim that he had delivered
the third knockdown, but Nyikos would not provide a link nor tell me >>>>>>>> where the post was supposed to be. It had been 3 additional years of >>>>>>>> assoholic harassing posts, and they all turned out like the current >>>>>>>> example. Nyikos never got any better as the harassment has continued >>>>>>>> for over a decade. If Nyikos wants to claim that it hasn't been over a >>>>>>>> decade of assoholic harassment, he should be able to produce hundreds of
posts where he had a legitimate beef. This example and the previous >>>>>>>> example (already linked to in previous posts) obviously do not qualify.
Someone might think that even a bumbling assoholic harasser would have >>>>>>>> multiple examples where his harassment was justified in some legitimate
way, but Nyikos has never cared if he had any legitimate reason to >>>>>>>> harass me, and his degenerate record demonstrates that. Over a decade >>>>>>>> of harassment, and what does Nyikos have to show for it?
Nyikos should be required to produce any posts that Nyikos made to >>>>>>>> harass me for over a decade that he thinks were legitimate and had a >>>>>>>> positive outcome for the loser. If he ever had any legitimate reasons >>>>>>>> for doing what he has done he should have hundreds of examples, but he >>>>>>>> couldn't come up with any for the first 4 years of his harassment, and I
don't recall any examples since. Even if Nyikos could scrounge up 1 or >>>>>>>> 2 examples (I doubt it) how sad would that be for over a decade of >>>>>>>> senseless harassment?
This post will likely be one of them that will be submitted to Grieg in
the request to ban Nyikos from TO. It doesn't look like Nyikos is able >>>>>>>> to stop himself from doing what he has done since he came back to TO. >>>>>>>> Over a decade of this type of stupid senseless harassment should be >>>>>>>> enough for any sadistic asshole like Nyikos. I do not stalk Nyikos >>>>>>>> around TO. It is Nyikos that nearly always has to post his harassing >>>>>>>> posts to me. There is no reason for it to continue. If Nyikos can't >>>>>>>> control his assoholic tendencies he should be made to do so. It has >>>>>>>> been really sad that it takes putting Nyikos down like the rabid dog >>>>>>>> that he is in no uncertain terms until he reaches his limit for lying >>>>>>>> about the stupid junk that he posts. The harassment for over a decade >>>>>>>> is due to Nyikos being wrong about something in, probably, the first >>>>>>>> post he posted after his return. Nyikos had a, likely involuntary, >>>>>>>> absence, from TO for nearly a decade, and made his return Dec. 2010. >>>>>>>> For Nyikosian reasons he has had to lie about that post in anyway that >>>>>>>> he can, and has had to maintain his harassment due to just being wrong >>>>>>>> about something. It never gets any better because Nyikos just generates
more that he has to lie about in his sadistic endeavor. This incessant >>>>>>>> harassment has never worked out well for Nyikos because there was never
any legitimate reason for the harassment to start.
The lies and nonsensical harrassment continues, and if it doesn't stop I
will be forced to formally get Grieg into this and start the process for
getting Nyikos removed from TO. I do not harass Nyikos, and there is no
sane reason for Nyikos to continue his sadistic behavior. He knows that
he is a sadistic maniac because that is what he projects onto me when I
am being the victim of his abuse. Over a decade of this type of >>>>>>>> stupidity should be long enough for anyone. Nyikos obviously didn't >>>>>>>> care enough about the current topic to understand what he was harassing
me about, and now just has to lie about the effort to continue his >>>>>>>> harassment. Enough is enough, and Nyikos should be banned if he can't >>>>>>>> restrain himself.
I have repeatedly told the asshole that I do not care about his issues >>>>>>>> with other posters. Why would anyone? Still in his last response he >>>>>>>> continues to whine about other posters even after being informed as to >>>>>>>> how assoholic such behavior is. It is just insane and it should stop. >>>>>>>> Anyone just has to look at other posters responding to the junk Nyikos >>>>>>>> writes about them in his posts that are supposedly addressing my posts.
I do not even read most of what Nyikos posts on TO, so he has free reign
to lie about me to other posters, but by this time my guess is that >>>>>>>> there aren't very many TO posters that do not understand what a lying >>>>>>>> asshole Nyikos has always been. There is no sane reason for Nyikos to >>>>>>>> harass me as he continues to do.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/SX7EUqzOAAAJ >>>>>>>>
Nyikos snips and runs from what he can't deal with, and that is obvious
in the above link. He then lies about one of the issues that he >>>>>>>> harassed me about. It is a stupid lie, and I can't figure out why >>>>>>>> anyone would think that, that type of response was valid.
Nyikos initial harassing claims:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/7z8nZ0LbAgAJ >>>>>>>>
QUOTE:
130,000 years ago temperatures got warmerIf you have a source for this, did it actually cite studies done on >>>>>>>> those islands,
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels >>>>>>>>> that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian Ocean
and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood and >>>>>>>>> terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
or did it merely deduce these things from the average global sea level rise?
END QUOTE:
Nyikos obviously is harassing me about citations for temperature, more >>>>>>>> ice melting and sea levels rising higher than they are now. He should >>>>>>>> have countered with references claiming otherwise, but he would have >>>>>>>> found collaborating evidence if he had bothered to check things out himself.
Nyikos' bogus harassing response after getting reference:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/5ykTUUo6BgAJ >>>>>>>>
QUOTE:
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20 metersRon O talks about little birds instead of megafauna, leaving his earlier
higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and a second
one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure 3. I would >>>>>>>>> note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to occur if we do >>>>>>>>> not curb global warming.
assertion high and dry.
END QUOTE:
Nyikos' response to having his stupidity noted:
Nyikos obviously posted this harassement with no regard to wanting to >>>>>>>> understand much of what he was harassing me about.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/SX7EUqzOAAAJ\ >>>>>>>>
QUOTE:
The Nyikosian denialI never said anything about either of those two topics. Ron O is in the
that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong >>>>>>>>> about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted.
grip of what is, at best, a bunch of false recollections.
END QUOTE:
Nyikos just lies, and then claims that it is my false recollection that
is the issue. Nyikos obviously is not interested in this topic enough >>>>>>>> to track his own harassing claims.
If this type of harassment continues I will ask for Nyikos to be banned
from TO. The last instance should have been enough for anyone, but not >>>>>>>> for an assoholic poster like Nyikos.
The link below is the last example that Nyikos snipped out of his >>>>>>>> responses. It occurred just before Nyikos took his recent 2 month >>>>>>>> vacation. This current harassment just has fewer outright lies in it. >>>>>>>>
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ >>>>>>>>
If Nyikos can't control himself he should be banned from TO. I do not >>>>>>>> follow Nyikos around TO and harass the asshole, and there is no reason >>>>>>>> for him to harass anyone. Elsewhere Nyikos is comparing himself to >>>>>>>> Kleinman. Kleinman was just about an order of magnitude worse than >>>>>>>> Nyikos. Klienman started his harassment because he was wrong about >>>>>>>> something stupid. He claimed that he could use the product rule >>>>>>>> (multiply the two individual probabilities to calculate the
probabilities of both occurring in the same cell) for two mutations >>>>>>>> occurring in the same cell lineage, but his example was that they were >>>>>>>> occurring in different generations. He was obviously wrong and his own >>>>>>>> reference told him that the product rule had issues when the events were
temporally separated. I gave him the Behe and Snokes reference, and how
they dealt with the issue of two mutations occurring in the same cell >>>>>>>> lineage, but Kleinman would not accept that he was wrong, and started >>>>>>>> lying about me, and claiming that I didn't know the math. Kleinman >>>>>>>> would post to me and tell the same lies in multiple posts in multiple >>>>>>>> threads nearly every day for around a year. It didn't matter what the >>>>>>>> topic of the thread was, the same harassing claims would be made over >>>>>>>> and over. Just a few weeks should have been enough, but Kleinman could >>>>>>>> not stop himself, and I asked that he be banned.
Nyikos is the same way except Nyikos has been less insane about his >>>>>>>> harassing efforts. Nyikos would post to me on any topic and lie about >>>>>>>> the past. It was insane. I had to create "REPOSTS" that contained all >>>>>>>> the evidence that Nyikos was lying about the past, and I reposted them >>>>>>>> when he started to lie about the past again. That should have ended a >>>>>>>> decade ago with his "Dirty Debating Thread" that Nyikos had started, in
order to harass me. I had already stopped reading most of what Nyikos >>>>>>>> posted on TO and just basically dealt with what he posted to me. Nyikos
had to come to me and tell me that I had to address the stupid lies that
he was posting in the dirty debating thread. Nyikos has been lying >>>>>>>> about the issues he lied about in that thread for over a decade. His >>>>>>>> insane last effort made him quit harassing me about those issues (it has
been around half a year, and Nyikos could start back up at anytime, but
this has been the longest break in his harassment about those issues >>>>>>>> since Nyikos returned in Dec 2010) but Nyikos can't give up on the >>>>>>>> insane harassment.
This is the thread that has ended the Nyikosian harassment about the >>>>>>>> Dirty debating thread from back in Aug 2022. Since then Nyikos stopped >>>>>>>> incessantly lying about these issues, but he decided to create new >>>>>>>> stupidity to harass me about.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/0GJ7i2VKEbg/m/8VgLI1iOAAAJ >>>>>>>>
Really, it took Nyikos over a decade to stop harassing me about those >>>>>>>> issues. He may start up again, but his previous longest break that I >>>>>>>> recall was around 3 months. Nyikos has routinely reached his limit for >>>>>>>> lying about the same thing and will give it up for a month or two, but >>>>>>>> only restarts lying about the past once he thinks that it is OK to do so
again. He has no reason to keep harassing me.
The harassment about the dirty debating issues should have ended long >>>>>>>> before the later part of last year. What consistently happens is that >>>>>>>> Nyikos resorts to broadening the topics that he has to lie about. He >>>>>>>> has always known that he was wrong about the involvement of the ID perps
in the bait and switch, and all of the dirty debating nonsense >>>>>>>> accumulated due to his propensity to lie about other issues in order to
harass me about his being wrong about something as stupid as the ID >>>>>>>> perps running the teach ID scam. He got shut down hard last August and >>>>>>>> has been accumulating more stupidity to harass me about since. The >>>>>>>> harassment should have never started. Kleinman may have been an order of
magnitude worse than Nyikos in terms of frequency, but Nyikos has been >>>>>>>> at it for over a decade. Enough is enough.
Probably the saddest thing about the Nykosian harassment over the years
is that Nyikos is always shown to be the lying asshole. He has behaved >>>>>>>> this way for over a decade (since Dec 2010) and I do not recall anything
that Nyikos has tried to harass me with ever accomplishing anything >>>>>>>> positive for Nyikos. This is due to the fact that Nyikos can't help >>>>>>>> himself and usually makes up the issue that he ends up lying about. >>>>>>>> Every single one of his posts involving the teach ID scam and the ID >>>>>>>> perp involvement have been a dead loss for Nyikos. I really can't >>>>>>>> recall any instance where Nyikos was not shown to be the lying asshole >>>>>>>> that he is. In his projection of the subject he has claimed that he >>>>>>>> does it because he is a hate filled sadistic maniac that has to try to >>>>>>>> right some imaginary wrong done to him. Nyikos should make an effort to
come up with any legitimate "knockdown" instances in order to defend his
obnoxious behavior to Grieg. Nyikos could not put up any in the first 4
years of his harassment, and I do not recall any since.
As noted above, a decade ago during the Dirty Debating thread fiasco >>>>>>>> Nyikos started another thread to harass me claiming that he was going to
On 3/26/23 4:22 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 6:50:39 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/19/2023 4:23 PM, RonO wrote:
On 3/8/2023 7:37 PM, RonO wrote:It looks like I will have to ask for Nyikos to be banned for his
On 3/4/2023 9:09 PM, RonO wrote:
The last episode of the documentary series Frozen Planet II was just >>>>>> on TV. They had how bad global warming is to the Arctic environment >>>>>> and wild life. The ending claimed that we could change this and
limit global warming to an additional 1.5 degrees.
Species like penguins and polar bears are having a hard time, but it >>>>>> should have been noted that things were worse during the last warm >>>>>> period between glaciation. 130,000 years ago temperatures got warmer >>>>>> than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels >>>>>> that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian >>>>>> Ocean and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood >>>>>> and terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
It seems that what we should be working on is determining how the ice >>>>>> age species made it through that last environmental catastrophe that >>>>>> has been occurring around every hundred thousand years for the last >>>>>> million years. The intervals between warm periods have been getting >>>>>> longer in the last half million years, and life on earth hasn't been >>>>>> able to adapt to that very effectively. Most of the ice age
megafauna likely nearly went extinct the last warm period, and even >>>>>> though their populations came back, the populations were likely not >>>>>> healthy enough to survive this warm period. No wolly rhino,
mastodons, and mammoths exist anywhere. The giant bears and saber >>>>>> toothed cats that fed on them didn't make it. Species like polar >>>>>> bears and penguins may not survive this warm period, and could go the >>>>>> way of the mammoth.
We likely need to figure out how these species survived the last warm >>>>>> period that became worse than current conditions. More ice melted >>>>>> last time and sea levels were as high as they are predicting for this >>>>>> warm period. In order to maintain viable populations we need to make >>>>>> those regions that allowed the survival of ice age species available >>>>>> to these animals. More of their habitat was lost last warm period, >>>>>> but the existing arctic species found somewhere to survive. We need >>>>>> to figure out what those survival places were and make them available >>>>>> to the species that need them.
For the penguin example, it is obvious that the last warm period the >>>>>> Adele penguins had to find some place else to nest. Finding where >>>>>> that was and relocating animals is likely the best way to get a large >>>>>> enough population through this warm period.
The issue with man made global warming is the prediction that was put >>>>>> out a few years ago that we might skip the next glacial period and >>>>>> the warm period might last a hundred thousand years longer than
usual.
The warm period is not the normal environment for temperate
latitudes. For the last million years most of the time the temperate >>>>>> latitudes have had an arctic alpine environment. Arctic species are >>>>>> adapted to what usually exists. The current environment has them >>>>>> limited to the icy regions of the world, and their environment has >>>>>> been rollercoasting for the last couple million years.
Ron Okimoto
I don't want to interact with a lying asshole like Nyikos, but I will >>>>> put up the supporting evidence for what I had claimed during
discussions on this topic, in order to demonstrate what an asshole
Nyikos is. Why wouldn't he look this stuff up for himself instead of >>>>> being the asshole that he is and making the claims that he made?
Evidence that there were at least two warm periods within the last
half million years where more ice melted than has melted at this time >>>>> in the current warm period.
https://academic.oup.com/zoolinnean/article/186/3/666/5487031?login=false >>>>>
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20
meters higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and >>>>> a second one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure
3. I would note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to
occur if we do not curb global warming.
The wiki for ice ages has a graph on temperature and amount of ice.
It shows that it got warmer than the current warm period twice in the >>>>> last 500,000 years. More ice melted 136,000 years ago, and the rail >>>>> paper claims that sea level was 20 meters higher than today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32795436/
This paper is open access and notes the population decline of wooly
rhinos over the past 1 million years after the cold periods got longer >>>>> than 40,000 years. The same trend was noted in the genomes of wooly >>>>> mammoths. It wasn't just the ice age arctic and alpine species that >>>>> were affected by the extension of the cold period. Temperate species >>>>> such as peacocks, junglefowl and tigers show the same decline in
effective population size over this time period. So the extended cold >>>>> periods were hard on the temperate species (probably because their
habitat was restricted for a longer period of time. The arctic
species population decline was likely due to having a longer time to >>>>> adapt to the arctic conditions only to have that habitat greatly
reduced for a short, but devestating period of time. The rhinos,
mastadon and mammoth didn't make it through this warm period, but
their decline started a million years ago.
Popular science article on the rhino genome.
https://phys.org/news/2020-08-ancient-genomes-woolly-rhinos-extinct.html >>>>>
Ron Okimoto
I will note that Nyikos does what he does just to harass me. He
obviously had no interest in this topic. His own projection has him
doing it because he is a sadistic hate filled maniac that thinks
that he
is righting some wrong done to him in the past. Nyikos has always
brought it all onto himself. He has just added to the things that he >>>> can't deal with in his failed attempts to lie about the past. No one >>>> should have been subjected to the Nyikosian stupidity and harassment
for
over a decade. It should be apparent that Nyikos only posted the junk >>>> to harass me because he wasn't interested in the topic enough to read
the cited paper in order to figure out what it actually supported.
This behavior should end. I do not stalk Nyikos around TO, and Nyikos >>>> should not be allowed to continue to do what he does.
Nyikios' last attempt at harassment that should have been his last for >>>> any sane individual.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ
This type of stupidity due to Nyikosian harassment should never take
place, but it just never ends.
I didn't expect Nyikos to address these two points because he was just >>>> plain wrong about them, and his nit picking doesn't do much to change
that fact. I don't care about his issues with other posters. His
first
attempted response was pathetic, and he did try again. He did nothing >>>> to counter the fact that there were at least two warm interglacial
periods before the current one where the temperatures were higher and
more ice melted. His stupid flailing about being wrong and the fact
that he should have been able to figure it out for himself is just
stupid. He even acknowledges that the Wiki supports me, but he makes >>>> some stupid comment about the inversion of the graph that simply
doesn't
matter at all. His stupid comments about the rail extinction
example is
just nonsense. I used that paper to demonstrate that during the last >>>> interglacial sea levels were 20 meters higher then they are today, and >>>> that more ice melted in the last interglacial. The Nyikosian denial
that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong >>>> about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted.
For the rhino example the population decline did start more than a
million years ago, but so what? It still happened. Two interglacials >>>> ago the temperatures did not get as warm as the current period, and the >>>> species of rhino under discussion and some mammoths did come through
pretty well and they show an increase in effective population size
during the cold period before the last previous interglacial where
temperatures got higher than they are today and more ice melted than
has
melted currently. If Nyikos had bothered to read the paper for
comprehension he would have understood that the authors admit that
there
was a population crash during the last warm period that is not
picked up
by their effective population size estimates. They cite a wooly
mammoth
paper as an example of the population crash that they expected to
happen. They try to explain the long tail where the effective
population size estimates stay high before bottoming out to a low long >>>> after the population had recovered during the last cold period. Their >>>> explanation was that during the high temperature and low ice period
multiple small isolated populations survived the bottleneck, and when
they could expand out into more territory they interbred. They thought >>>> that males moving between populations could accomplish a population
mixing that would reestablish genetic diversity that had been preserved >>>> in the small isolated populations. In our paper that noted the decline >>>> in genetic diversity of domestic chickens we stated the obvious
conclusion that we could recreate a population with nearly all of the
genetic diversity domestic chickens started with by crossing the extant >>>> domestic breeds together. Each population had lost diversity over time >>>> even as their total population increased because of how they were
propagated as small flocks in isolated villages, but each population
had
retained a different bit of the original genetic variation, and if
combined would restore a lot of the genetic variation that domestic
chickens started with.
All this means is that the paper acknowledged that there had been a
severe population crash during the last interglacial that was not
picked
up by their method of calculating effective population size. They also >>>> admit that they can't explain why their estimate of effective
population
size continues to decline for tens of thousands of years after the
population had likely regained a stable size of around 100,000 breeding >>>> females. This decline is likely just a reflection of the population
crash that occurred before the population recovery because you can
remix
the genetic variation, but as soon as you start crossing relatives you >>>> are going to start loosing the genetic variation. For some reason
their
methods do not pick up the population crash that they expected to
happen, and instead shows a gradual decline even after the bottle neck >>>> was resolved and a large stable population was being maintained for 10s >>>> of thousands of years during this period of decline. They could not
explain the long decline in effective population size and the final low >>>> that did not reflect the larger population size estimate obtained by
other means. For some reason the population bottleneck during the
previous interglacial took a long time to manifest in the rhino genome, >>>> and did not show a recovery until after the glacial maximum when the
population had actually recovered just a few thousand years after the
last warm period ended. They can't explain why the effective population >>>> estimate continued to decline and bottomed out over a period when other >>>> estimates indicated that a stable population of around 100,000 breeding >>>> females was reestablished soon after the last warm period and this
population was relatively stable over a period of 100,000 years.
So the Nyikosian response is the usual Nyikosian null response. What
Nyikos was wrong about, he is still wrong about. Nit picking and
outright stupidity will not support the harassment.
This harassment should stop. The only reason to continue the
harassment
is the insane behavior of Nyikos. For whatever reason he has never
been
able to deal with the fact that he has been wrong about multiple things >>>> like the present examples. All the craziness with the ID scam was due >>>> to Nyikos' first mistake when he was wrong about the Discovery
Institute's involvement in the bait and switch that has been going on
for over 20 years. He blames me for his bumbling stupidity and
dishonesty since. It is just nuts because he wouldn't have as much of >>>> his assoholic behavior to blame me for if he had never started his
harassment due to simply being shown to be wrong about something.
I maintain as little interaction with the lying asshole as is possible, >>>> and if the baseless harassment continues Nyikos should be banned from
TO. I had enjoyed a fairly long break from the assoholic behavior
during the recent Nykosian vacation, and that break should be extended >>>> indefinitely. If Nyikos can't control his assoholic behavior, he
should
be stopped from doing it. Nyikos didn't care if he was wrong about the >>>> junk, it was just harassment. He obviously didn't care enough about
being wrong to do what needed to be done in order to determine that he >>>> was wrong, nor understand the paper that was used to counter his
denial.
Just use the link and go back to the last such episode to determine >>>> how tragically sad Nyikos has always been.
The last such Nykosian episode:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ
I will likely be referring to this post to make my case in the
future if
this harassment continues.
Ron Okimoto
obnoxious harassing behavior. If Nyikos wants to defend himself he
should start looking for any harassing posts that had a positive outcome >>> for him. There may be one or two, but my guess is that 99.9 percent of
Nyikos' posts to me have contained senseless harassing material. All
his lies about the past never worked out for him, so around 80 to 90% of >>> his harassing posts over the last decade have been a dead loss for
Nyikos. It is apparent that it has been pretty much all harassment
because around a year after Nyikos' return; a year of his senseless
stupidity and lies about the Discovery Institute and the creationist ID
scam, Nyikos claimed that he had knocked me down 3 times. He claimed
that he would post the knockdowns within a couple weeks of his posting
his initial knockdown and claims of having two more to post. So even to
Nyikos his efforts were just harassment and trying to knock me down. The >>> sad thing is that Nyikos could not find anything in that years worth of
harassing posts that he could list as a win for him. He had always just
obfuscated the issue, run and or lied to his limit for lying. Nyikos
kept claiming that the knockdowns were still coming for around 3 years,
and never produced anything that could be considered positive for
Nyikos. The claims ended with the Nyikosian claim that he had delivered
the third knockdown, but Nyikos would not provide a link nor tell me
where the post was supposed to be. It had been 3 additional years of
assoholic harassing posts, and they all turned out like the current
example. Nyikos never got any better as the harassment has continued
for over a decade. If Nyikos wants to claim that it hasn't been over a
decade of assoholic harassment, he should be able to produce hundreds of >>> posts where he had a legitimate beef. This example and the previous
example (already linked to in previous posts) obviously do not qualify.
Someone might think that even a bumbling assoholic harasser would have
multiple examples where his harassment was justified in some legitimate
way, but Nyikos has never cared if he had any legitimate reason to
harass me, and his degenerate record demonstrates that. Over a decade
of harassment, and what does Nyikos have to show for it?
Nyikos should be required to produce any posts that Nyikos made to
harass me for over a decade that he thinks were legitimate and had a
positive outcome for the loser. If he ever had any legitimate reasons
for doing what he has done he should have hundreds of examples, but he
couldn't come up with any for the first 4 years of his harassment, and I >>> don't recall any examples since. Even if Nyikos could scrounge up 1 or
2 examples (I doubt it) how sad would that be for over a decade of
senseless harassment?
This post will likely be one of them that will be submitted to Grieg in
the request to ban Nyikos from TO. It doesn't look like Nyikos is able
to stop himself from doing what he has done since he came back to TO.
Over a decade of this type of stupid senseless harassment should be
enough for any sadistic asshole like Nyikos. I do not stalk Nyikos
around TO. It is Nyikos that nearly always has to post his harassing
posts to me. There is no reason for it to continue. If Nyikos can't
control his assoholic tendencies he should be made to do so. It has
been really sad that it takes putting Nyikos down like the rabid dog
that he is in no uncertain terms until he reaches his limit for lying
about the stupid junk that he posts. The harassment for over a decade
is due to Nyikos being wrong about something in, probably, the first
post he posted after his return. Nyikos had a, likely involuntary,
absence, from TO for nearly a decade, and made his return Dec. 2010.
For Nyikosian reasons he has had to lie about that post in anyway that
he can, and has had to maintain his harassment due to just being wrong
about something. It never gets any better because Nyikos just generates
more that he has to lie about in his sadistic endeavor. This incessant
harassment has never worked out well for Nyikos because there was never
any legitimate reason for the harassment to start.
The lies and nonsensical harrassment continues, and if it doesn't stop I >>> will be forced to formally get Grieg into this and start the process for >>> getting Nyikos removed from TO. I do not harass Nyikos, and there is no
sane reason for Nyikos to continue his sadistic behavior. He knows that
he is a sadistic maniac because that is what he projects onto me when I
am being the victim of his abuse. Over a decade of this type of
stupidity should be long enough for anyone. Nyikos obviously didn't
care enough about the current topic to understand what he was harassing
me about, and now just has to lie about the effort to continue his
harassment. Enough is enough, and Nyikos should be banned if he can't
restrain himself.
I have repeatedly told the asshole that I do not care about his issues
with other posters. Why would anyone? Still in his last response he
continues to whine about other posters even after being informed as to
how assoholic such behavior is. It is just insane and it should stop.
Anyone just has to look at other posters responding to the junk Nyikos
writes about them in his posts that are supposedly addressing my posts.
I do not even read most of what Nyikos posts on TO, so he has free reign >>> to lie about me to other posters, but by this time my guess is that
there aren't very many TO posters that do not understand what a lying
asshole Nyikos has always been. There is no sane reason for Nyikos to
harass me as he continues to do.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/SX7EUqzOAAAJ
Nyikos snips and runs from what he can't deal with, and that is obvious
in the above link. He then lies about one of the issues that he
harassed me about. It is a stupid lie, and I can't figure out why
anyone would think that, that type of response was valid.
Nyikos initial harassing claims:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/7z8nZ0LbAgAJ
QUOTE:
130,000 years ago temperatures got warmerIf you have a source for this, did it actually cite studies done on
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels
that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian Ocean >>>> and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood and
terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
those islands,
or did it merely deduce these things from the average global sea
level rise?
END QUOTE:
Nyikos obviously is harassing me about citations for temperature, more
ice melting and sea levels rising higher than they are now. He should
have countered with references claiming otherwise, but he would have
found collaborating evidence if he had bothered to check things out
himself.
Nyikos' bogus harassing response after getting reference:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/5ykTUUo6BgAJ
QUOTE:
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20Ron O talks about little birds instead of megafauna, leaving his earlier >>> assertion high and dry.
meters
higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and a second >>>> one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure 3. I would
note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to occur if we do
not curb global warming.
END QUOTE:
Nyikos' response to having his stupidity noted:
Nyikos obviously posted this harassement with no regard to wanting to
understand much of what he was harassing me about.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/SX7EUqzOAAAJ\
QUOTE:
The Nyikosian denialI never said anything about either of those two topics. Ron O is in the
that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong
about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted.
grip of what is, at best, a bunch of false recollections.
END QUOTE:
Nyikos just lies, and then claims that it is my false recollection that
is the issue. Nyikos obviously is not interested in this topic enough
to track his own harassing claims.
If this type of harassment continues I will ask for Nyikos to be banned
from TO. The last instance should have been enough for anyone, but not
for an assoholic poster like Nyikos.
The link below is the last example that Nyikos snipped out of his
responses. It occurred just before Nyikos took his recent 2 month
vacation. This current harassment just has fewer outright lies in it.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ
If Nyikos can't control himself he should be banned from TO. I do not
follow Nyikos around TO and harass the asshole, and there is no reason
for him to harass anyone. Elsewhere Nyikos is comparing himself to
Kleinman. Kleinman was just about an order of magnitude worse than
Nyikos. Klienman started his harassment because he was wrong about
something stupid. He claimed that he could use the product rule
(multiply the two individual probabilities to calculate the
probabilities of both occurring in the same cell) for two mutations
occurring in the same cell lineage, but his example was that they were
occurring in different generations. He was obviously wrong and his own
reference told him that the product rule had issues when the events were >>> temporally separated. I gave him the Behe and Snokes reference, and how
they dealt with the issue of two mutations occurring in the same cell
lineage, but Kleinman would not accept that he was wrong, and started
lying about me, and claiming that I didn't know the math. Kleinman
would post to me and tell the same lies in multiple posts in multiple
threads nearly every day for around a year. It didn't matter what the
topic of the thread was, the same harassing claims would be made over
and over. Just a few weeks should have been enough, but Kleinman could
not stop himself, and I asked that he be banned.
Nyikos is the same way except Nyikos has been less insane about his
harassing efforts. Nyikos would post to me on any topic and lie about
the past. It was insane. I had to create "REPOSTS" that contained all
the evidence that Nyikos was lying about the past, and I reposted them
when he started to lie about the past again. That should have ended a
decade ago with his "Dirty Debating Thread" that Nyikos had started, in
order to harass me. I had already stopped reading most of what Nyikos
posted on TO and just basically dealt with what he posted to me. Nyikos
had to come to me and tell me that I had to address the stupid lies that >>> he was posting in the dirty debating thread. Nyikos has been lying
about the issues he lied about in that thread for over a decade. His
insane last effort made him quit harassing me about those issues (it has >>> been around half a year, and Nyikos could start back up at anytime, but
this has been the longest break in his harassment about those issues
since Nyikos returned in Dec 2010) but Nyikos can't give up on the
insane harassment.
This is the thread that has ended the Nyikosian harassment about the
Dirty debating thread from back in Aug 2022. Since then Nyikos stopped
incessantly lying about these issues, but he decided to create new
stupidity to harass me about.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/0GJ7i2VKEbg/m/8VgLI1iOAAAJ
Really, it took Nyikos over a decade to stop harassing me about those
issues. He may start up again, but his previous longest break that I
recall was around 3 months. Nyikos has routinely reached his limit for
lying about the same thing and will give it up for a month or two, but
only restarts lying about the past once he thinks that it is OK to do so >>> again. He has no reason to keep harassing me.
The harassment about the dirty debating issues should have ended long
before the later part of last year. What consistently happens is that
Nyikos resorts to broadening the topics that he has to lie about. He
has always known that he was wrong about the involvement of the ID perps >>> in the bait and switch, and all of the dirty debating nonsense
accumulated due to his propensity to lie about other issues in order to
harass me about his being wrong about something as stupid as the ID
perps running the teach ID scam. He got shut down hard last August and
has been accumulating more stupidity to harass me about since. The
harassment should have never started. Kleinman may have been an order of >>> magnitude worse than Nyikos in terms of frequency, but Nyikos has been
at it for over a decade. Enough is enough.
Probably the saddest thing about the Nykosian harassment over the years
is that Nyikos is always shown to be the lying asshole. He has behaved
this way for over a decade (since Dec 2010) and I do not recall anything >>> that Nyikos has tried to harass me with ever accomplishing anything
positive for Nyikos. This is due to the fact that Nyikos can't help
himself and usually makes up the issue that he ends up lying about.
Every single one of his posts involving the teach ID scam and the ID
perp involvement have been a dead loss for Nyikos. I really can't
recall any instance where Nyikos was not shown to be the lying asshole
that he is. In his projection of the subject he has claimed that he
does it because he is a hate filled sadistic maniac that has to try to
right some imaginary wrong done to him. Nyikos should make an effort to
come up with any legitimate "knockdown" instances in order to defend his >>> obnoxious behavior to Grieg. Nyikos could not put up any in the first 4
years of his harassment, and I do not recall any since.
As noted above, a decade ago during the Dirty Debating thread fiasco
Nyikos started another thread to harass me claiming that he was going to >>> put up three instances where he had knocked me down in the boxing ring.
His first alleged knockdown blew up in his face because he made up the
issue. Things did not occur the way that he had claimed. For weeks he
ran from what he had done and even lied about me not posting a rebuttal
to the thread. Nyikos couldn't identify any other possible knockdown
events that had ever happened, and even though he claimed that he would
produce the other two knockdowns in a week or two, years passed. His
stated goal was to achieve a technical knockout, but no knockdowns
existed. His second alleged knockdown was the event where he projected
his sadistic behavior onto me. Nyikos had started a side thread and
changed the title claiming that I had done something funny. He had
obviously started the side thread to make fun of me, and he posted
multiple posts claiming that what I had done was really funny but would
not deliver the punch line. He seemed to be savoring every moment of
the extended trial, but when he finally produced what was "so funny", I
only had to point out that Google didn't work that way, so I could not
have been guilty of doing anything "funny". Nyikos went into his
sadistic hate filled rage, as if I had been the one trying to make fun
of him, and that was supposed to be his second knockdown. Around 3
years would pass before Nyikos informed me that he had posted the third
knockdown, but he wouldn't tell me where or give me a link. Nyikos
never provided any evidence that the third knockdown ever existed. The
whole 3 additional years of harassment had come to naught for Nyikos, he >>> could never come up with an instance where his harassment had actually
been about anything real for those 3 years and before. His harassment
has been like that for over a decade, and that is long enough.
If Nyikos wants to continue his harassment he should reflect on the fact >>> of how dismal his efforts have been for him. These posts are what will
be submitted to Grieg in order to support his banning from TO, so Nyikos >>> should reflect on the facts of the last decade of his stupid assoholic
harassment.
Nyikos can stop his harassment or he should be made to do so.
Ron Okimoto
Ron, just as was the case with Alan Kleinman, it is perfectly easy to
On 3/27/2023 6:05 AM, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 6:55:40 AM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/27/2023 4:50 AM, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 9:40:39 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/26/2023 8:28 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 8:50:39 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/26/2023 6:22 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 6:50:39 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote: >>>>>>>> On 3/19/2023 4:23 PM, RonO wrote:
On 3/8/2023 7:37 PM, RonO wrote:It looks like I will have to ask for Nyikos to be banned for his >>>>>>>> obnoxious harassing behavior. If Nyikos wants to defend himself he >>>>>>>> should start looking for any harassing posts that had a positive outcome
On 3/4/2023 9:09 PM, RonO wrote:
The last episode of the documentary series Frozen Planet II was just
on TV. They had how bad global warming is to the Arctic environment
and wild life. The ending claimed that we could change this and >>>>>>>>>>> limit global warming to an additional 1.5 degrees.
Species like penguins and polar bears are having a hard time, but it
should have been noted that things were worse during the last warm
period between glaciation. 130,000 years ago temperatures got warmer
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels
that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian >>>>>>>>>>> Ocean and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood
and terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands. >>>>>>>>>>>
It seems that what we should be working on is determining how the ice
age species made it through that last environmental catastrophe that
has been occurring around every hundred thousand years for the last
million years. The intervals between warm periods have been getting
longer in the last half million years, and life on earth hasn't been
able to adapt to that very effectively. Most of the ice age >>>>>>>>>>> megafauna likely nearly went extinct the last warm period, and even
though their populations came back, the populations were likely not
healthy enough to survive this warm period. No wolly rhino, >>>>>>>>>>> mastodons, and mammoths exist anywhere. The giant bears and saber
toothed cats that fed on them didn't make it. Species like polar >>>>>>>>>>> bears and penguins may not survive this warm period, and could go the
way of the mammoth.
We likely need to figure out how these species survived the last warm
period that became worse than current conditions. More ice melted
last time and sea levels were as high as they are predicting for this
warm period. In order to maintain viable populations we need to make
those regions that allowed the survival of ice age species available
to these animals. More of their habitat was lost last warm period,
but the existing arctic species found somewhere to survive. We need
to figure out what those survival places were and make them available
to the species that need them.
For the penguin example, it is obvious that the last warm period the
Adele penguins had to find some place else to nest. Finding where
that was and relocating animals is likely the best way to get a large
enough population through this warm period.
The issue with man made global warming is the prediction that was put
out a few years ago that we might skip the next glacial period and
the warm period might last a hundred thousand years longer than usual.
The warm period is not the normal environment for temperate >>>>>>>>>>> latitudes. For the last million years most of the time the temperate
latitudes have had an arctic alpine environment. Arctic species are
adapted to what usually exists. The current environment has them >>>>>>>>>>> limited to the icy regions of the world, and their environment has
been rollercoasting for the last couple million years. >>>>>>>>>>>
Ron Okimoto
I don't want to interact with a lying asshole like Nyikos, but I will
put up the supporting evidence for what I had claimed during >>>>>>>>>> discussions on this topic, in order to demonstrate what an asshole
Nyikos is. Why wouldn't he look this stuff up for himself instead of
being the asshole that he is and making the claims that he made? >>>>>>>>>>
Evidence that there were at least two warm periods within the last
half million years where more ice melted than has melted at this time
in the current warm period.
https://academic.oup.com/zoolinnean/article/186/3/666/5487031?login=false
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20 >>>>>>>>>> meters higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and
a second one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure
3. I would note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to >>>>>>>>>> occur if we do not curb global warming.
The wiki for ice ages has a graph on temperature and amount of ice.
It shows that it got warmer than the current warm period twice in the
last 500,000 years. More ice melted 136,000 years ago, and the rail
paper claims that sea level was 20 meters higher than today. >>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32795436/
This paper is open access and notes the population decline of wooly
rhinos over the past 1 million years after the cold periods got longer
than 40,000 years. The same trend was noted in the genomes of wooly
mammoths. It wasn't just the ice age arctic and alpine species that
were affected by the extension of the cold period. Temperate species
such as peacocks, junglefowl and tigers show the same decline in >>>>>>>>>> effective population size over this time period. So the extended cold
periods were hard on the temperate species (probably because their
habitat was restricted for a longer period of time. The arctic >>>>>>>>>> species population decline was likely due to having a longer time to
adapt to the arctic conditions only to have that habitat greatly >>>>>>>>>> reduced for a short, but devestating period of time. The rhinos, >>>>>>>>>> mastadon and mammoth didn't make it through this warm period, but >>>>>>>>>> their decline started a million years ago.
Popular science article on the rhino genome.
https://phys.org/news/2020-08-ancient-genomes-woolly-rhinos-extinct.html
Ron Okimoto
I will note that Nyikos does what he does just to harass me. He >>>>>>>>> obviously had no interest in this topic. His own projection has him
doing it because he is a sadistic hate filled maniac that thinks that he
is righting some wrong done to him in the past. Nyikos has always >>>>>>>>> brought it all onto himself. He has just added to the things that he
can't deal with in his failed attempts to lie about the past. No one
should have been subjected to the Nyikosian stupidity and harassment for
over a decade. It should be apparent that Nyikos only posted the junk
to harass me because he wasn't interested in the topic enough to read
the cited paper in order to figure out what it actually supported. >>>>>>>>>
This behavior should end. I do not stalk Nyikos around TO, and Nyikos
should not be allowed to continue to do what he does.
Nyikios' last attempt at harassment that should have been his last for
any sane individual.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ
This type of stupidity due to Nyikosian harassment should never take
place, but it just never ends.
I didn't expect Nyikos to address these two points because he was just
plain wrong about them, and his nit picking doesn't do much to change
that fact. I don't care about his issues with other posters. His first
attempted response was pathetic, and he did try again. He did nothing
to counter the fact that there were at least two warm interglacial >>>>>>>>> periods before the current one where the temperatures were higher and
more ice melted. His stupid flailing about being wrong and the fact
that he should have been able to figure it out for himself is just >>>>>>>>> stupid. He even acknowledges that the Wiki supports me, but he makes
some stupid comment about the inversion of the graph that simply doesn't
matter at all. His stupid comments about the rail extinction example is
just nonsense. I used that paper to demonstrate that during the last
interglacial sea levels were 20 meters higher then they are today, and
that more ice melted in the last interglacial. The Nyikosian denial
that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong
about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted.
For the rhino example the population decline did start more than a >>>>>>>>> million years ago, but so what? It still happened. Two interglacials
ago the temperatures did not get as warm as the current period, and the
species of rhino under discussion and some mammoths did come through
pretty well and they show an increase in effective population size >>>>>>>>> during the cold period before the last previous interglacial where >>>>>>>>> temperatures got higher than they are today and more ice melted than has
melted currently. If Nyikos had bothered to read the paper for >>>>>>>>> comprehension he would have understood that the authors admit that there
was a population crash during the last warm period that is not picked up
by their effective population size estimates. They cite a wooly mammoth
paper as an example of the population crash that they expected to >>>>>>>>> happen. They try to explain the long tail where the effective >>>>>>>>> population size estimates stay high before bottoming out to a low long
after the population had recovered during the last cold period. Their
explanation was that during the high temperature and low ice period
multiple small isolated populations survived the bottleneck, and when
they could expand out into more territory they interbred. They thought
that males moving between populations could accomplish a population
mixing that would reestablish genetic diversity that had been preserved
in the small isolated populations. In our paper that noted the decline
in genetic diversity of domestic chickens we stated the obvious >>>>>>>>> conclusion that we could recreate a population with nearly all of the
genetic diversity domestic chickens started with by crossing the extant
domestic breeds together. Each population had lost diversity over time
even as their total population increased because of how they were >>>>>>>>> propagated as small flocks in isolated villages, but each population had
retained a different bit of the original genetic variation, and if >>>>>>>>> combined would restore a lot of the genetic variation that domestic
chickens started with.
All this means is that the paper acknowledged that there had been a
severe population crash during the last interglacial that was not picked
up by their method of calculating effective population size. They also
admit that they can't explain why their estimate of effective population
size continues to decline for tens of thousands of years after the >>>>>>>>> population had likely regained a stable size of around 100,000 breeding
females. This decline is likely just a reflection of the population
crash that occurred before the population recovery because you can remix
the genetic variation, but as soon as you start crossing relatives you
are going to start loosing the genetic variation. For some reason their
methods do not pick up the population crash that they expected to >>>>>>>>> happen, and instead shows a gradual decline even after the bottle neck
was resolved and a large stable population was being maintained for 10s
of thousands of years during this period of decline. They could not
explain the long decline in effective population size and the final low
that did not reflect the larger population size estimate obtained by
other means. For some reason the population bottleneck during the >>>>>>>>> previous interglacial took a long time to manifest in the rhino genome,
and did not show a recovery until after the glacial maximum when the
population had actually recovered just a few thousand years after the
last warm period ended. They can't explain why the effective population
estimate continued to decline and bottomed out over a period when other
estimates indicated that a stable population of around 100,000 breeding
females was reestablished soon after the last warm period and this >>>>>>>>> population was relatively stable over a period of 100,000 years. >>>>>>>>>
So the Nyikosian response is the usual Nyikosian null response. What
Nyikos was wrong about, he is still wrong about. Nit picking and >>>>>>>>> outright stupidity will not support the harassment.
This harassment should stop. The only reason to continue the harassment
is the insane behavior of Nyikos. For whatever reason he has never been
able to deal with the fact that he has been wrong about multiple things
like the present examples. All the craziness with the ID scam was due
to Nyikos' first mistake when he was wrong about the Discovery >>>>>>>>> Institute's involvement in the bait and switch that has been going on
for over 20 years. He blames me for his bumbling stupidity and >>>>>>>>> dishonesty since. It is just nuts because he wouldn't have as much of
his assoholic behavior to blame me for if he had never started his >>>>>>>>> harassment due to simply being shown to be wrong about something. >>>>>>>>>
I maintain as little interaction with the lying asshole as is possible,
and if the baseless harassment continues Nyikos should be banned from
TO. I had enjoyed a fairly long break from the assoholic behavior >>>>>>>>> during the recent Nykosian vacation, and that break should be extended
indefinitely. If Nyikos can't control his assoholic behavior, he should
be stopped from doing it. Nyikos didn't care if he was wrong about the
junk, it was just harassment. He obviously didn't care enough about
being wrong to do what needed to be done in order to determine that he
was wrong, nor understand the paper that was used to counter his denial.
Just use the link and go back to the last such episode to determine
how tragically sad Nyikos has always been.
The last such Nykosian episode:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ
I will likely be referring to this post to make my case in the future if
this harassment continues.
Ron Okimoto
for him. There may be one or two, but my guess is that 99.9 percent of
Nyikos' posts to me have contained senseless harassing material. All
his lies about the past never worked out for him, so around 80 to 90% of
his harassing posts over the last decade have been a dead loss for >>>>>>>> Nyikos. It is apparent that it has been pretty much all harassment >>>>>>>> because around a year after Nyikos' return; a year of his senseless >>>>>>>> stupidity and lies about the Discovery Institute and the creationist ID
scam, Nyikos claimed that he had knocked me down 3 times. He claimed
that he would post the knockdowns within a couple weeks of his posting
his initial knockdown and claims of having two more to post. So even to
Nyikos his efforts were just harassment and trying to knock me down. The
sad thing is that Nyikos could not find anything in that years worth of
harassing posts that he could list as a win for him. He had always just
obfuscated the issue, run and or lied to his limit for lying. Nyikos
kept claiming that the knockdowns were still coming for around 3 years,
and never produced anything that could be considered positive for >>>>>>>> Nyikos. The claims ended with the Nyikosian claim that he had delivered
the third knockdown, but Nyikos would not provide a link nor tell me
where the post was supposed to be. It had been 3 additional years of
assoholic harassing posts, and they all turned out like the current >>>>>>>> example. Nyikos never got any better as the harassment has continued
for over a decade. If Nyikos wants to claim that it hasn't been over a
decade of assoholic harassment, he should be able to produce hundreds of
posts where he had a legitimate beef. This example and the previous >>>>>>>> example (already linked to in previous posts) obviously do not qualify.
Someone might think that even a bumbling assoholic harasser would have
multiple examples where his harassment was justified in some legitimate
way, but Nyikos has never cared if he had any legitimate reason to >>>>>>>> harass me, and his degenerate record demonstrates that. Over a decade
of harassment, and what does Nyikos have to show for it?
Nyikos should be required to produce any posts that Nyikos made to >>>>>>>> harass me for over a decade that he thinks were legitimate and had a
positive outcome for the loser. If he ever had any legitimate reasons
for doing what he has done he should have hundreds of examples, but he
couldn't come up with any for the first 4 years of his harassment, and I
don't recall any examples since. Even if Nyikos could scrounge up 1 or
2 examples (I doubt it) how sad would that be for over a decade of >>>>>>>> senseless harassment?
This post will likely be one of them that will be submitted to Grieg in
the request to ban Nyikos from TO. It doesn't look like Nyikos is able
to stop himself from doing what he has done since he came back to TO.
Over a decade of this type of stupid senseless harassment should be >>>>>>>> enough for any sadistic asshole like Nyikos. I do not stalk Nyikos >>>>>>>> around TO. It is Nyikos that nearly always has to post his harassing
posts to me. There is no reason for it to continue. If Nyikos can't >>>>>>>> control his assoholic tendencies he should be made to do so. It has >>>>>>>> been really sad that it takes putting Nyikos down like the rabid dog
that he is in no uncertain terms until he reaches his limit for lying
about the stupid junk that he posts. The harassment for over a decade
is due to Nyikos being wrong about something in, probably, the first
post he posted after his return. Nyikos had a, likely involuntary, >>>>>>>> absence, from TO for nearly a decade, and made his return Dec. 2010.
For Nyikosian reasons he has had to lie about that post in anyway that
he can, and has had to maintain his harassment due to just being wrong
about something. It never gets any better because Nyikos just generates
more that he has to lie about in his sadistic endeavor. This incessant
harassment has never worked out well for Nyikos because there was never
any legitimate reason for the harassment to start.
The lies and nonsensical harrassment continues, and if it doesn't stop I
will be forced to formally get Grieg into this and start the process for
getting Nyikos removed from TO. I do not harass Nyikos, and there is no
sane reason for Nyikos to continue his sadistic behavior. He knows that
he is a sadistic maniac because that is what he projects onto me when I
am being the victim of his abuse. Over a decade of this type of >>>>>>>> stupidity should be long enough for anyone. Nyikos obviously didn't >>>>>>>> care enough about the current topic to understand what he was harassing
me about, and now just has to lie about the effort to continue his >>>>>>>> harassment. Enough is enough, and Nyikos should be banned if he can't
restrain himself.
I have repeatedly told the asshole that I do not care about his issues
with other posters. Why would anyone? Still in his last response he >>>>>>>> continues to whine about other posters even after being informed as to
how assoholic such behavior is. It is just insane and it should stop.
Anyone just has to look at other posters responding to the junk Nyikos
writes about them in his posts that are supposedly addressing my posts.
I do not even read most of what Nyikos posts on TO, so he has free reign
to lie about me to other posters, but by this time my guess is that >>>>>>>> there aren't very many TO posters that do not understand what a lying
asshole Nyikos has always been. There is no sane reason for Nyikos to
harass me as he continues to do.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/SX7EUqzOAAAJ
Nyikos snips and runs from what he can't deal with, and that is obvious
in the above link. He then lies about one of the issues that he >>>>>>>> harassed me about. It is a stupid lie, and I can't figure out why >>>>>>>> anyone would think that, that type of response was valid.
Nyikos initial harassing claims:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/7z8nZ0LbAgAJ
QUOTE:
130,000 years ago temperatures got warmeror did it merely deduce these things from the average global sea level rise?
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels
that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian Ocean
and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood and >>>>>>>>> terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands. >>>>>>>> If you have a source for this, did it actually cite studies done on >>>>>>>> those islands,
END QUOTE:
Nyikos obviously is harassing me about citations for temperature, more
ice melting and sea levels rising higher than they are now. He should
have countered with references claiming otherwise, but he would have
found collaborating evidence if he had bothered to check things out himself.
Nyikos' bogus harassing response after getting reference:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/5ykTUUo6BgAJ
QUOTE:
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20 metersRon O talks about little birds instead of megafauna, leaving his earlier
higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and a second
one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure 3. I would
note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to occur if we do
not curb global warming.
assertion high and dry.
END QUOTE:
Nyikos' response to having his stupidity noted:
Nyikos obviously posted this harassement with no regard to wanting to
understand much of what he was harassing me about.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/SX7EUqzOAAAJ\
QUOTE:
The Nyikosian denialI never said anything about either of those two topics. Ron O is in the
that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong
about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted.
grip of what is, at best, a bunch of false recollections.
END QUOTE:
Nyikos just lies, and then claims that it is my false recollection that
is the issue. Nyikos obviously is not interested in this topic enough
to track his own harassing claims.
If this type of harassment continues I will ask for Nyikos to be banned
from TO. The last instance should have been enough for anyone, but not
for an assoholic poster like Nyikos.
The link below is the last example that Nyikos snipped out of his >>>>>>>> responses. It occurred just before Nyikos took his recent 2 month >>>>>>>> vacation. This current harassment just has fewer outright lies in it.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ
If Nyikos can't control himself he should be banned from TO. I do not
follow Nyikos around TO and harass the asshole, and there is no reason
for him to harass anyone. Elsewhere Nyikos is comparing himself to >>>>>>>> Kleinman. Kleinman was just about an order of magnitude worse than >>>>>>>> Nyikos. Klienman started his harassment because he was wrong about >>>>>>>> something stupid. He claimed that he could use the product rule >>>>>>>> (multiply the two individual probabilities to calculate the >>>>>>>> probabilities of both occurring in the same cell) for two mutations >>>>>>>> occurring in the same cell lineage, but his example was that they were
occurring in different generations. He was obviously wrong and his own
reference told him that the product rule had issues when the events were
temporally separated. I gave him the Behe and Snokes reference, and how
they dealt with the issue of two mutations occurring in the same cell
lineage, but Kleinman would not accept that he was wrong, and started
lying about me, and claiming that I didn't know the math. Kleinman >>>>>>>> would post to me and tell the same lies in multiple posts in multiple
threads nearly every day for around a year. It didn't matter what the
topic of the thread was, the same harassing claims would be made over
and over. Just a few weeks should have been enough, but Kleinman could
not stop himself, and I asked that he be banned.
Nyikos is the same way except Nyikos has been less insane about his >>>>>>>> harassing efforts. Nyikos would post to me on any topic and lie about
the past. It was insane. I had to create "REPOSTS" that contained all
the evidence that Nyikos was lying about the past, and I reposted them
when he started to lie about the past again. That should have ended a
decade ago with his "Dirty Debating Thread" that Nyikos had started, in
order to harass me. I had already stopped reading most of what Nyikos
posted on TO and just basically dealt with what he posted to me. Nyikos
had to come to me and tell me that I had to address the stupid lies that
he was posting in the dirty debating thread. Nyikos has been lying >>>>>>>> about the issues he lied about in that thread for over a decade. His
insane last effort made him quit harassing me about those issues (it has
been around half a year, and Nyikos could start back up at anytime, but
this has been the longest break in his harassment about those issues
since Nyikos returned in Dec 2010) but Nyikos can't give up on the >>>>>>>> insane harassment.
This is the thread that has ended the Nyikosian harassment about the
Dirty debating thread from back in Aug 2022. Since then Nyikos stopped
incessantly lying about these issues, but he decided to create new >>>>>>>> stupidity to harass me about.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/0GJ7i2VKEbg/m/8VgLI1iOAAAJ
Really, it took Nyikos over a decade to stop harassing me about those
issues. He may start up again, but his previous longest break that I
recall was around 3 months. Nyikos has routinely reached his limit for
lying about the same thing and will give it up for a month or two, but
only restarts lying about the past once he thinks that it is OK to do so
again. He has no reason to keep harassing me.
The harassment about the dirty debating issues should have ended long
before the later part of last year. What consistently happens is that
Nyikos resorts to broadening the topics that he has to lie about. He
has always known that he was wrong about the involvement of the ID perps
in the bait and switch, and all of the dirty debating nonsense >>>>>>>> accumulated due to his propensity to lie about other issues in order to
harass me about his being wrong about something as stupid as the ID >>>>>>>> perps running the teach ID scam. He got shut down hard last August and
has been accumulating more stupidity to harass me about since. The >>>>>>>> harassment should have never started. Kleinman may have been an order of
Bob Casanova <[email protected]> wrote:
[snip]
Maybe Ron could start charging him rent instead of letting him get away
It's your choice whether to read his garbage. But be aware
that there's an old adage: "Never wrestle with a pig. You
just get dirty and the pig enjoys it". And another: "If you
lie down with dogs you get up with fleas".
But as noted, it's your choice.
with squatting inside his head all these years.
It's your choice whether to read his garbage. But be aware
that there's an old adage: "Never wrestle with a pig. You
just get dirty and the pig enjoys it". And another: "If you
lie down with dogs you get up with fleas".
But as noted, it's your choice.
On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 00:20:40 +0000, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by *Hemidactylus*
<[email protected]d>:
Bob Casanova <[email protected]> wrote:Hey, whatever Ron wants to do is fine with me; it's his
[snip]
Maybe Ron could start charging him rent instead of letting him get away
It's your choice whether to read his garbage. But be aware
that there's an old adage: "Never wrestle with a pig. You
just get dirty and the pig enjoys it". And another: "If you
lie down with dogs you get up with fleas".
But as noted, it's your choice.
with squatting inside his head all these years.
time. He's not the only one who has someone living rent-free
in his head, although most of the others seem to be
political; both ODS and TDS are real. And pathetic.
On 3/26/23 3:47 PM, RonO wrote:
[...] I do not harass Nyikos, and there is no
sane reason for Nyikos to continue his sadistic behavior. He knows that
he is a sadistic maniac [...]
You may want to consider that the second sentence quoted above
contradicts the opening clause of the first sentence.
(FWIW, Nyikos has his faults, but I personally don't think either
"sadistic" or "maniac" apply to him.)
And in another post, you said that Nyikos does not belong here. I
disagree. His views on panspermia and cladistics are just the sort of
thing this group was created for.
--
Mark Isaak
"Wisdom begins when you discover the difference between 'That
doesn't make sense' and 'I don't understand.'" - Mary Doria Russell
On Monday, 27 March 2023 at 12:05:40 UTC+3, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
jillery <[email protected]> wrote:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 20:17:24 -0700, Bob Casanova <[email protected]> wrote:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 19:39:33 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by jillery <[email protected]>:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 09:13:26 -0700, Bob Casanova <[email protected]>No need for me to "finish" anything I didn't start; it was
wrote:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 08:33:54 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by jillery <[email protected]>:
It's curious the following inspires no cries of "off-topic" orJust can't let it drop, can you?
"killfiles are your friend" or "burning irony" from the peanut
gallery.
Don't start what you can't/won't finish.
your decision to restart it. Everyone knows you can't let it
drop; that chip on your shoulder is just too heavy.
<CrapSnip>
Yet another willfully stupid lie. You, Bob Casanova, are the one who regularly spams "Killfiles are your friends". Don't blame me for what you do, you blatantly willfully stupid liar.
Well this has taken a rather unpleasant turn
It is clearly jillery who mentions phrase "Killfiles are your friends" more than anyone else. IOW spams about it.
On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 00:19:23 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by jillery <[email protected]>:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 20:17:24 -0700, Bob Casanova <[email protected]>So you can't even remember your own posts, such as the one
wrote:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 19:39:33 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by jillery <[email protected]>:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 09:13:26 -0700, Bob Casanova <[email protected]> >>>>wrote:No need for me to "finish" anything I didn't start; it was
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 08:33:54 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by jillery <[email protected]>:
It's curious the following inspires no cries of "off-topic" or >>>>>>"killfiles are your friend" or "burning irony" from the peanut >>>>>>gallery.Just can't let it drop, can you?
Don't start what you can't/won't finish.
your decision to restart it. Everyone knows you can't let it
drop; that chip on your shoulder is just too heavy.
<CrapSnip>
Yet another willfully stupid lie. You, Bob Casanova, are the one who >>regularly spams "Killfiles are your friends". Don't blame me for what
you do, you blatantly willfully stupid liar.
just above in which *you* restarted the crap about killfiles
(from over a week ago) and "off-topic (from *months* ago)"?
OK. It was over until *you* brought it up with your usual
snark.
And FYI, referencing killfiles in response to a post about
idiots who (IMHO; YMMV) should be ignored is not spam except
in jilleryWorld.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 5:40:39?AM UTC-4, �� Tiib wrote:
It is clearly jillery who mentions phrase "Killfiles are your friends" more >> than anyone else. IOW spams about it.
FTR, the word "spams" is inappropriate in this kind of context. Strictly speaking, "spam" is
unwanted advertising.
On 3/27/2023 12:05 PM, Mark Isaak wrote:
On 3/26/23 3:47 PM, RonO wrote:
[...] I do not harass Nyikos, and there is no sane reason for Nyikos
to continue his sadistic behavior. He knows that he is a sadistic
maniac [...]
You may want to consider that the second sentence quoted above
contradicts the opening clause of the first sentence.
If you think that the truth is harassment when it is in an explanation
for why things are the way that they are, you are wrong.
(FWIW, Nyikos has his faults, but I personally don't think either
"sadistic" or "maniac" apply to him.)
My take is that you are obviously wrong. It is what he projected when
he was trying to abuse me and it turned out that the joke was on him.
Really, projection is a way of life for Nyikos. [...]
On 3/27/2023 11:10 AM, Mark Isaak wrote:[...]
Two bits of advice for RonO and others in his position:
1. When you respond to harassment, make sure your response is less
than half as long as the post you are responding to. (This does not
apply to disagreements over substantive, on-topic issues.)
This doesn't work for Nyikos. What works is something like the Holy
Water Reposts that I resorted to whenever Nyikos started lying about the
same thing. Nyikos demands evidence, but Nyikos will snip out (usually without attribution) what he can't deal with and pretend that it never existed or flat out lie about what he just snipped out. He has some
weird notion of a self contained lie, and if the material he is lying
about is no longer in the post that he is telling the lie in, it is not
a self contained lie, so he isn't a liar. He also has a limit for
snipping and running from the same material. Doing the same dishonest
and stupid thing is OK, but he tried not to do it three times. There
have been times when he has messed up and done the same stupid and
dishonest snipping 3 times, and he will go back to the post and put the material back in and then try to obfuscate about the reason he snipped
it out in the first place. It all adds up to making him reach those
limits as quickly as possible so that he will quit his harassment for a while. That is how it has been for over a decade, and why the holy
water reposts have been the most effective control over the Nyikosian harassment. The only problem has been is that Nyikos will just start
lying about something else from the past, and I end up making up another
holy water repost.
2. When you find yourself wrestling with a pig in the mud, remember
that the pig likes it.
There should be no pigs to wrestle with.
On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 19:14:44 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]" ><[email protected]> wrote:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 5:40:39?AM UTC-4, �� Tiib wrote:
[...]
It is clearly jillery who mentions phrase "Killfiles are your friends" more >>> than anyone else. IOW spams about it.
FTR, the word "spams" is inappropriate in this kind of context. Strictly speaking, "spam" is
unwanted advertising.
So speaks the person who regularly tries to redefine words to suit
himself as in your feeble attempt to redefine "agnostic" to
accommodate your lies about me.
[...]
On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 14:17:52 -0700, Bob Casanova <[email protected]>
wrote:
The following is a good example of Casanova failing to follow his own
advice to ignore posts and posters he find annoying. This is good
evidence of his lack of self-discipline.
On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 00:19:23 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by jillery <[email protected]>:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 20:17:24 -0700, Bob Casanova <[email protected]>So you can't even remember your own posts, such as the one
wrote:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 19:39:33 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by jillery <[email protected]>:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 09:13:26 -0700, Bob Casanova <[email protected]> >>>>>wrote:No need for me to "finish" anything I didn't start; it was
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 08:33:54 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by jillery <[email protected]>:
It's curious the following inspires no cries of "off-topic" or >>>>>>>"killfiles are your friend" or "burning irony" from the peanut >>>>>>>gallery.Just can't let it drop, can you?
Don't start what you can't/won't finish.
your decision to restart it. Everyone knows you can't let it
drop; that chip on your shoulder is just too heavy.
<CrapSnip>
Yet another willfully stupid lie. You, Bob Casanova, are the one who >>>regularly spams "Killfiles are your friends". Don't blame me for what >>>you do, you blatantly willfully stupid liar.
just above in which *you* restarted the crap about killfiles
(from over a week ago) and "off-topic (from *months* ago)"?
OK. It was over until *you* brought it up with your usual
snark.
The above is a good example of Casanova ignoring what I posted while
ignoring to what "the following" refers. "the following" is similar
to a Nazi and a pedophile in a knife fight over how best to abuse
Jewish children. It's arguably not on-topic to T.O., and definitely
not something which Casanova should support. Apparently his mileage
varies.
And FYI, referencing killfiles in response to a post about
idiots who (IMHO; YMMV) should be ignored is not spam except
in jilleryWorld.
The above is a good example of Casanova pretending to know the
etymology of "spam", yet another typical example of Casanova claiming
facts about which he has no idea what he's talking about:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrZyZn5nVks>
On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 14:17:52 -0700, Bob Casanova <[email protected]>
wrote:
And FYI, referencing killfiles in response to a post about
idiots who (IMHO; YMMV) should be ignored is not spam except
in jilleryWorld.
The above is a good example of Casanova pretending to know the
etymology of "spam",
yet another typical example of Casanova claiming
facts about which he has no idea what he's talking about:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrZyZn5nVks>
I was sufficiently bothered by the impression that Usenet is not an ongoing forum that
I sent the following message to https://my.malwarebytes.com/help:
"There is an inaccuracy in your history of spam. Usenet is still around, and I am involved in three active newsgroups. Your paragraph on Usenet makes it seem like a thing of the past, and a correct description might help attract new users."
On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 2:30:44 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote: ...
I was sufficiently bothered by the impression that Usenet is not an ongoing forum that
I sent the following message to https://my.malwarebytes.com/help:
"There is an inaccuracy in your history of spam. Usenet is still around, and I am involved in three active newsgroups. Your paragraph on Usenet makes it seem like a thing of the past, and a correct description might help attract new users."
!!
"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea. Massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it."
— Gene Spafford, 1992
On 3/27/23 3:58 PM, RonO wrote:
On 3/27/2023 12:05 PM, Mark Isaak wrote:
On 3/26/23 3:47 PM, RonO wrote:
[...] I do not harass Nyikos, and there is no sane reason for Nyikos
to continue his sadistic behavior. He knows that he is a sadistic
maniac [...]
You may want to consider that the second sentence quoted above
contradicts the opening clause of the first sentence.
If you think that the truth is harassment when it is in an explanation
for why things are the way that they are, you are wrong.
(FWIW, Nyikos has his faults, but I personally don't think either
"sadistic" or "maniac" apply to him.)
My take is that you are obviously wrong. It is what he projected when
he was trying to abuse me and it turned out that the joke was on him.
Really, projection is a way of life for Nyikos. [...]
Projection is not a sign of sadism. I'd expect it to be prevalent with narcissism. My take on Nyikos (and note that, never having met him in person much less known him for a length of time, it is likely off) is
that he combines narcissism with social myopia. His narcissism makes it important to him that he come out on top in any exchange, and his social myopia prevents him from seeing the damage he does to others (not to
mention to his own reputation) in the process. And I repeat the
disclaimer that I have neither the expertise nor data to make that
diagnosis more than a guess. Nor do you.
You, like a great many people he has crossed paths with, have been
victimized by him. It is natural, but nonetheless groundless, to assume
he inflicted pain on purpose.
Also, I do not think "maniac" means what you think it means.
On 3/27/23 4:29 PM, RonO wrote:
On 3/27/2023 11:10 AM, Mark Isaak wrote:[...]
Two bits of advice for RonO and others in his position:
1. When you respond to harassment, make sure your response is less
than half as long as the post you are responding to. (This does not
apply to disagreements over substantive, on-topic issues.)
This doesn't work for Nyikos. What works is something like the Holy
Water Reposts that I resorted to whenever Nyikos started lying about
the same thing. Nyikos demands evidence, but Nyikos will snip out
(usually without attribution) what he can't deal with and pretend that
it never existed or flat out lie about what he just snipped out. He
has some weird notion of a self contained lie, and if the material he
is lying about is no longer in the post that he is telling the lie in,
it is not a self contained lie, so he isn't a liar. He also has a
limit for snipping and running from the same material. Doing the same
dishonest and stupid thing is OK, but he tried not to do it three
times. There have been times when he has messed up and done the same
stupid and dishonest snipping 3 times, and he will go back to the post
and put the material back in and then try to obfuscate about the
reason he snipped it out in the first place. It all adds up to making
him reach those limits as quickly as possible so that he will quit his
harassment for a while. That is how it has been for over a decade,
and why the holy water reposts have been the most effective control
over the Nyikosian harassment. The only problem has been is that
Nyikos will just start lying about something else from the past, and I
end up making up another holy water repost.
Judging by your own comments, including your desire for a ban, what you describe above as "what works" doesn't work.
What works is responding to Nyikos by clipping out all his personal and off-topic remarks. Of course, that only works if your idea of "works" includes not getting caught up in such comments. If you *want* to react
and respond to them, then reacting and responding to them is what works,
and banning him would not work at all.
2. When you find yourself wrestling with a pig in the mud, remember
that the pig likes it.
There should be no pigs to wrestle with.
People who want to force utopias into existence end up building dystopias.
No, Nyikos projected his sadism onto me when he was being the sadist.
After Nyikos realized that he had made a fool of himself by trying to
make fun of me with something that couldn't have even happened he went
on his delusional rant about me tormenting him when everything that he
put up applied to what he had just tried to do. I was the victim, and
he claimed that I was the one trying to abuse him. It was an obvious
case of projection. Nyikos really had drawn out the ploy seeming to
savor every moment for multiple posts before he delivered what he
claimed was so funny, and when it turned out not to be very funny at all
he went nuts.
I never had to score a victory. The ID perps killed ID on TO. I just
rubbed the IDiot's faces in their reality, and that is all that I had to
do. Just go back and check. All that I had to do was list the Top Six
and give the links to what the ID perps were claiming about them.
On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 7:00:41 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
...
No, Nyikos projected his sadism onto me when he was being the sadist.
After Nyikos realized that he had made a fool of himself by trying to
make fun of me with something that couldn't have even happened he went
on his delusional rant about me tormenting him when everything that he
put up applied to what he had just tried to do. I was the victim, and
he claimed that I was the one trying to abuse him. It was an obvious
case of projection. Nyikos really had drawn out the ploy seeming to
savor every moment for multiple posts before he delivered what he
claimed was so funny, and when it turned out not to be very funny at all
he went nuts.
I ask Ron to consider, in his decades of experience in talk.origins, can
he recall a few posters who, while they were broadly speaking on the
correct side of an argument, nevertheless botched things up?
Trite examples are where people tried to refute 2nd law complaints by creationists but only offer that the 2nd law doesn't matter because
of the sun in the sky. That's at best about 1/4 of even the elements of
a proper refutation. Yet those who made that feeble argument, an attempt
to refute a fallacy but a failed attempt, they fully believe that they
had the best of it as all the readers could clearly see.
There are many variants on that theme. Take a minute to recall some.
They aren't all as bad of fumbles as my example. Some are lesser
versions of a lack of rhetorical skill in writing. When you think about
it you can surely recall cases where you felt you could construct a
more complete and compelling refutation, perhaps in somebody's
refutation of your recent crusade against the Top Six where you think
you can knock down claims with geometric precision.
Pause.
Your arguments aren't as great as you imagine them to be. You imagine
that you have checkmated your adversary, pinned them down with
no escape. Metaphorically, you are even playing on the same chess board.
This isn't disagreeing with you on the broad thrust that the ID arguments
are crap, and broadly for reasons that you harp on. But frankly you
(and really most people, including me) have over-inflated perceptions
of the convincingness of their own arguments. Your imagined lethal
blows are often not even flesh wounds. Such are verbal battles.
This is all to reflect back on the few words of yours quoted above.
You __imagine__ that you have scored some victory. This is evident in "realized that he made a fool of himself". That's doubtful. Whether or
not he should have I avoid comment upon. It isn't the point.
The point is that you leap to a conclusion that you have won a rhetorical skirmish. It's so very obvious to you. That's a self-delusion. It's a trap that many fall for. And once someone falls for that trap, you interpret
your opponents behavior as deceit, imagining that they somehow
know that you've bested them but they continue in dishonest denial.
From there, things can help but spiral down into vitriolic noise.
Your reaction will of course be to reject what I've written. That's human.
So don't respond. Turn down the heat. Let it simmer.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 7:15:40 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/27/2023 6:05 AM, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 6:55:40 AM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/27/2023 4:50 AM, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 9:40:39 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/26/2023 8:28 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 8:50:39 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/26/2023 6:22 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 6:50:39 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 3/19/2023 4:23 PM, RonO wrote:
On 3/8/2023 7:37 PM, RonO wrote:It looks like I will have to ask for Nyikos to be banned for his >>>>>>>>>> obnoxious harassing behavior. If Nyikos wants to defend himself he >>>>>>>>>> should start looking for any harassing posts that had a positive outcome
On 3/4/2023 9:09 PM, RonO wrote:
The last episode of the documentary series Frozen Planet II was just
on TV. They had how bad global warming is to the Arctic environment
and wild life. The ending claimed that we could change this and >>>>>>>>>>>>> limit global warming to an additional 1.5 degrees.
Species like penguins and polar bears are having a hard time, but it
should have been noted that things were worse during the last warm
period between glaciation. 130,000 years ago temperatures got warmer
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels
that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ocean and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood
and terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
It seems that what we should be working on is determining how the ice
age species made it through that last environmental catastrophe that
has been occurring around every hundred thousand years for the last
million years. The intervals between warm periods have been getting
longer in the last half million years, and life on earth hasn't been
able to adapt to that very effectively. Most of the ice age >>>>>>>>>>>>> megafauna likely nearly went extinct the last warm period, and even
though their populations came back, the populations were likely not
healthy enough to survive this warm period. No wolly rhino, >>>>>>>>>>>>> mastodons, and mammoths exist anywhere. The giant bears and saber >>>>>>>>>>>>> toothed cats that fed on them didn't make it. Species like polar >>>>>>>>>>>>> bears and penguins may not survive this warm period, and could go the
way of the mammoth.
We likely need to figure out how these species survived the last warm
period that became worse than current conditions. More ice melted >>>>>>>>>>>>> last time and sea levels were as high as they are predicting for this
warm period. In order to maintain viable populations we need to make
those regions that allowed the survival of ice age species available
to these animals. More of their habitat was lost last warm period,
but the existing arctic species found somewhere to survive. We need
to figure out what those survival places were and make them available
to the species that need them.
For the penguin example, it is obvious that the last warm period the
Adele penguins had to find some place else to nest. Finding where >>>>>>>>>>>>> that was and relocating animals is likely the best way to get a large
enough population through this warm period.
The issue with man made global warming is the prediction that was put
out a few years ago that we might skip the next glacial period and
the warm period might last a hundred thousand years longer than usual.
The warm period is not the normal environment for temperate >>>>>>>>>>>>> latitudes. For the last million years most of the time the temperate
latitudes have had an arctic alpine environment. Arctic species are
adapted to what usually exists. The current environment has them >>>>>>>>>>>>> limited to the icy regions of the world, and their environment has
been rollercoasting for the last couple million years. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
Ron Okimoto
I don't want to interact with a lying asshole like Nyikos, but I will
put up the supporting evidence for what I had claimed during >>>>>>>>>>>> discussions on this topic, in order to demonstrate what an asshole >>>>>>>>>>>> Nyikos is. Why wouldn't he look this stuff up for himself instead of
being the asshole that he is and making the claims that he made? >>>>>>>>>>>>
Evidence that there were at least two warm periods within the last >>>>>>>>>>>> half million years where more ice melted than has melted at this time
in the current warm period.
https://academic.oup.com/zoolinnean/article/186/3/666/5487031?login=false
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20 >>>>>>>>>>>> meters higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and
a second one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure
3. I would note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to >>>>>>>>>>>> occur if we do not curb global warming.
The wiki for ice ages has a graph on temperature and amount of ice.
It shows that it got warmer than the current warm period twice in the
last 500,000 years. More ice melted 136,000 years ago, and the rail
paper claims that sea level was 20 meters higher than today. >>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32795436/
This paper is open access and notes the population decline of wooly
rhinos over the past 1 million years after the cold periods got longer
than 40,000 years. The same trend was noted in the genomes of wooly
mammoths. It wasn't just the ice age arctic and alpine species that
were affected by the extension of the cold period. Temperate species
such as peacocks, junglefowl and tigers show the same decline in >>>>>>>>>>>> effective population size over this time period. So the extended cold
periods were hard on the temperate species (probably because their >>>>>>>>>>>> habitat was restricted for a longer period of time. The arctic >>>>>>>>>>>> species population decline was likely due to having a longer time to
adapt to the arctic conditions only to have that habitat greatly >>>>>>>>>>>> reduced for a short, but devestating period of time. The rhinos, >>>>>>>>>>>> mastadon and mammoth didn't make it through this warm period, but >>>>>>>>>>>> their decline started a million years ago.
Popular science article on the rhino genome.
https://phys.org/news/2020-08-ancient-genomes-woolly-rhinos-extinct.html
Ron Okimoto
I will note that Nyikos does what he does just to harass me. He >>>>>>>>>>> obviously had no interest in this topic. His own projection has him >>>>>>>>>>> doing it because he is a sadistic hate filled maniac that thinks that he
is righting some wrong done to him in the past. Nyikos has always >>>>>>>>>>> brought it all onto himself. He has just added to the things that he
can't deal with in his failed attempts to lie about the past. No one
should have been subjected to the Nyikosian stupidity and harassment for
over a decade. It should be apparent that Nyikos only posted the junk
to harass me because he wasn't interested in the topic enough to read
the cited paper in order to figure out what it actually supported. >>>>>>>>>>>
This behavior should end. I do not stalk Nyikos around TO, and Nyikos
should not be allowed to continue to do what he does.
Nyikios' last attempt at harassment that should have been his last for
any sane individual.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ
This type of stupidity due to Nyikosian harassment should never take
place, but it just never ends.
I didn't expect Nyikos to address these two points because he was just
plain wrong about them, and his nit picking doesn't do much to change
that fact. I don't care about his issues with other posters. His first
attempted response was pathetic, and he did try again. He did nothing
to counter the fact that there were at least two warm interglacial >>>>>>>>>>> periods before the current one where the temperatures were higher and
more ice melted. His stupid flailing about being wrong and the fact >>>>>>>>>>> that he should have been able to figure it out for himself is just >>>>>>>>>>> stupid. He even acknowledges that the Wiki supports me, but he makes
some stupid comment about the inversion of the graph that simply doesn't
matter at all. His stupid comments about the rail extinction example is
just nonsense. I used that paper to demonstrate that during the last
interglacial sea levels were 20 meters higher then they are today, and
that more ice melted in the last interglacial. The Nyikosian denial >>>>>>>>>>> that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong
about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted. >>>>>>>>>>>
For the rhino example the population decline did start more than a >>>>>>>>>>> million years ago, but so what? It still happened. Two interglacials
ago the temperatures did not get as warm as the current period, and the
species of rhino under discussion and some mammoths did come through
pretty well and they show an increase in effective population size >>>>>>>>>>> during the cold period before the last previous interglacial where >>>>>>>>>>> temperatures got higher than they are today and more ice melted than has
melted currently. If Nyikos had bothered to read the paper for >>>>>>>>>>> comprehension he would have understood that the authors admit that there
was a population crash during the last warm period that is not picked up
by their effective population size estimates. They cite a wooly mammoth
paper as an example of the population crash that they expected to >>>>>>>>>>> happen. They try to explain the long tail where the effective >>>>>>>>>>> population size estimates stay high before bottoming out to a low long
after the population had recovered during the last cold period. Their
explanation was that during the high temperature and low ice period >>>>>>>>>>> multiple small isolated populations survived the bottleneck, and when
they could expand out into more territory they interbred. They thought
that males moving between populations could accomplish a population >>>>>>>>>>> mixing that would reestablish genetic diversity that had been preserved
in the small isolated populations. In our paper that noted the decline
in genetic diversity of domestic chickens we stated the obvious >>>>>>>>>>> conclusion that we could recreate a population with nearly all of the
genetic diversity domestic chickens started with by crossing the extant
domestic breeds together. Each population had lost diversity over time
even as their total population increased because of how they were >>>>>>>>>>> propagated as small flocks in isolated villages, but each population had
retained a different bit of the original genetic variation, and if >>>>>>>>>>> combined would restore a lot of the genetic variation that domestic >>>>>>>>>>> chickens started with.
All this means is that the paper acknowledged that there had been a >>>>>>>>>>> severe population crash during the last interglacial that was not picked
up by their method of calculating effective population size. They also
admit that they can't explain why their estimate of effective population
size continues to decline for tens of thousands of years after the >>>>>>>>>>> population had likely regained a stable size of around 100,000 breeding
females. This decline is likely just a reflection of the population >>>>>>>>>>> crash that occurred before the population recovery because you can remix
the genetic variation, but as soon as you start crossing relatives you
are going to start loosing the genetic variation. For some reason their
methods do not pick up the population crash that they expected to >>>>>>>>>>> happen, and instead shows a gradual decline even after the bottle neck
was resolved and a large stable population was being maintained for 10s
of thousands of years during this period of decline. They could not >>>>>>>>>>> explain the long decline in effective population size and the final low
that did not reflect the larger population size estimate obtained by
other means. For some reason the population bottleneck during the >>>>>>>>>>> previous interglacial took a long time to manifest in the rhino genome,
and did not show a recovery until after the glacial maximum when the
population had actually recovered just a few thousand years after the
last warm period ended. They can't explain why the effective population
estimate continued to decline and bottomed out over a period when other
estimates indicated that a stable population of around 100,000 breeding
females was reestablished soon after the last warm period and this >>>>>>>>>>> population was relatively stable over a period of 100,000 years. >>>>>>>>>>>
So the Nyikosian response is the usual Nyikosian null response. What
Nyikos was wrong about, he is still wrong about. Nit picking and >>>>>>>>>>> outright stupidity will not support the harassment.
This harassment should stop. The only reason to continue the harassment
is the insane behavior of Nyikos. For whatever reason he has never been
able to deal with the fact that he has been wrong about multiple things
like the present examples. All the craziness with the ID scam was due
to Nyikos' first mistake when he was wrong about the Discovery >>>>>>>>>>> Institute's involvement in the bait and switch that has been going on
for over 20 years. He blames me for his bumbling stupidity and >>>>>>>>>>> dishonesty since. It is just nuts because he wouldn't have as much of
his assoholic behavior to blame me for if he had never started his >>>>>>>>>>> harassment due to simply being shown to be wrong about something. >>>>>>>>>>>
I maintain as little interaction with the lying asshole as is possible,
and if the baseless harassment continues Nyikos should be banned from
TO. I had enjoyed a fairly long break from the assoholic behavior >>>>>>>>>>> during the recent Nykosian vacation, and that break should be extended
indefinitely. If Nyikos can't control his assoholic behavior, he should
be stopped from doing it. Nyikos didn't care if he was wrong about the
junk, it was just harassment. He obviously didn't care enough about >>>>>>>>>>> being wrong to do what needed to be done in order to determine that he
was wrong, nor understand the paper that was used to counter his denial.
Just use the link and go back to the last such episode to determine >>>>>>>>>>> how tragically sad Nyikos has always been.
The last such Nykosian episode:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ
I will likely be referring to this post to make my case in the future if
this harassment continues.
Ron Okimoto
for him. There may be one or two, but my guess is that 99.9 percent of
Nyikos' posts to me have contained senseless harassing material. All >>>>>>>>>> his lies about the past never worked out for him, so around 80 to 90% of
his harassing posts over the last decade have been a dead loss for >>>>>>>>>> Nyikos. It is apparent that it has been pretty much all harassment >>>>>>>>>> because around a year after Nyikos' return; a year of his senseless >>>>>>>>>> stupidity and lies about the Discovery Institute and the creationist ID
scam, Nyikos claimed that he had knocked me down 3 times. He claimed >>>>>>>>>> that he would post the knockdowns within a couple weeks of his posting
his initial knockdown and claims of having two more to post. So even to
Nyikos his efforts were just harassment and trying to knock me down. The
sad thing is that Nyikos could not find anything in that years worth of
harassing posts that he could list as a win for him. He had always just
obfuscated the issue, run and or lied to his limit for lying. Nyikos >>>>>>>>>> kept claiming that the knockdowns were still coming for around 3 years,
and never produced anything that could be considered positive for >>>>>>>>>> Nyikos. The claims ended with the Nyikosian claim that he had delivered
the third knockdown, but Nyikos would not provide a link nor tell me >>>>>>>>>> where the post was supposed to be. It had been 3 additional years of >>>>>>>>>> assoholic harassing posts, and they all turned out like the current >>>>>>>>>> example. Nyikos never got any better as the harassment has continued >>>>>>>>>> for over a decade. If Nyikos wants to claim that it hasn't been over a
decade of assoholic harassment, he should be able to produce hundreds of
posts where he had a legitimate beef. This example and the previous >>>>>>>>>> example (already linked to in previous posts) obviously do not qualify.
Someone might think that even a bumbling assoholic harasser would have
multiple examples where his harassment was justified in some legitimate
way, but Nyikos has never cared if he had any legitimate reason to >>>>>>>>>> harass me, and his degenerate record demonstrates that. Over a decade
of harassment, and what does Nyikos have to show for it?
Nyikos should be required to produce any posts that Nyikos made to >>>>>>>>>> harass me for over a decade that he thinks were legitimate and had a >>>>>>>>>> positive outcome for the loser. If he ever had any legitimate reasons
for doing what he has done he should have hundreds of examples, but he
couldn't come up with any for the first 4 years of his harassment, and I
don't recall any examples since. Even if Nyikos could scrounge up 1 or
2 examples (I doubt it) how sad would that be for over a decade of >>>>>>>>>> senseless harassment?
This post will likely be one of them that will be submitted to Grieg in
the request to ban Nyikos from TO. It doesn't look like Nyikos is able
to stop himself from doing what he has done since he came back to TO.
Over a decade of this type of stupid senseless harassment should be >>>>>>>>>> enough for any sadistic asshole like Nyikos. I do not stalk Nyikos >>>>>>>>>> around TO. It is Nyikos that nearly always has to post his harassing >>>>>>>>>> posts to me. There is no reason for it to continue. If Nyikos can't >>>>>>>>>> control his assoholic tendencies he should be made to do so. It has >>>>>>>>>> been really sad that it takes putting Nyikos down like the rabid dog >>>>>>>>>> that he is in no uncertain terms until he reaches his limit for lying
about the stupid junk that he posts. The harassment for over a decade
is due to Nyikos being wrong about something in, probably, the first >>>>>>>>>> post he posted after his return. Nyikos had a, likely involuntary, >>>>>>>>>> absence, from TO for nearly a decade, and made his return Dec. 2010. >>>>>>>>>> For Nyikosian reasons he has had to lie about that post in anyway that
he can, and has had to maintain his harassment due to just being wrong
about something. It never gets any better because Nyikos just generates
more that he has to lie about in his sadistic endeavor. This incessant
harassment has never worked out well for Nyikos because there was never
any legitimate reason for the harassment to start.
The lies and nonsensical harrassment continues, and if it doesn't stop I
will be forced to formally get Grieg into this and start the process for
getting Nyikos removed from TO. I do not harass Nyikos, and there is no
sane reason for Nyikos to continue his sadistic behavior. He knows that
he is a sadistic maniac because that is what he projects onto me when I
am being the victim of his abuse. Over a decade of this type of >>>>>>>>>> stupidity should be long enough for anyone. Nyikos obviously didn't >>>>>>>>>> care enough about the current topic to understand what he was harassing
me about, and now just has to lie about the effort to continue his >>>>>>>>>> harassment. Enough is enough, and Nyikos should be banned if he can't
restrain himself.
I have repeatedly told the asshole that I do not care about his issues
with other posters. Why would anyone? Still in his last response he >>>>>>>>>> continues to whine about other posters even after being informed as to
how assoholic such behavior is. It is just insane and it should stop.
Anyone just has to look at other posters responding to the junk Nyikos
writes about them in his posts that are supposedly addressing my posts.
I do not even read most of what Nyikos posts on TO, so he has free reign
to lie about me to other posters, but by this time my guess is that >>>>>>>>>> there aren't very many TO posters that do not understand what a lying
asshole Nyikos has always been. There is no sane reason for Nyikos to
harass me as he continues to do.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/SX7EUqzOAAAJ
Nyikos snips and runs from what he can't deal with, and that is obvious
in the above link. He then lies about one of the issues that he >>>>>>>>>> harassed me about. It is a stupid lie, and I can't figure out why >>>>>>>>>> anyone would think that, that type of response was valid.
Nyikos initial harassing claims:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/7z8nZ0LbAgAJ
QUOTE:
130,000 years ago temperatures got warmeror did it merely deduce these things from the average global sea level rise?
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels
that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian Ocean
and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood and >>>>>>>>>>> terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands. >>>>>>>>>> If you have a source for this, did it actually cite studies done on >>>>>>>>>> those islands,
END QUOTE:
Nyikos obviously is harassing me about citations for temperature, more
ice melting and sea levels rising higher than they are now. He should
have countered with references claiming otherwise, but he would have >>>>>>>>>> found collaborating evidence if he had bothered to check things out himself.
Nyikos' bogus harassing response after getting reference:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/5ykTUUo6BgAJ
QUOTE:
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20 metersRon O talks about little birds instead of megafauna, leaving his earlier
higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and a second
one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure 3. I would
note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to occur if we do
not curb global warming.
assertion high and dry.
END QUOTE:
Nyikos' response to having his stupidity noted:
Nyikos obviously posted this harassement with no regard to wanting to
understand much of what he was harassing me about.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/SX7EUqzOAAAJ\
QUOTE:
The Nyikosian denialI never said anything about either of those two topics. Ron O is in the
that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong
about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted.
grip of what is, at best, a bunch of false recollections.
END QUOTE:
Nyikos just lies, and then claims that it is my false recollection that
is the issue. Nyikos obviously is not interested in this topic enough
to track his own harassing claims.
If this type of harassment continues I will ask for Nyikos to be banned
from TO. The last instance should have been enough for anyone, but not
for an assoholic poster like Nyikos.
The link below is the last example that Nyikos snipped out of his >>>>>>>>>> responses. It occurred just before Nyikos took his recent 2 month >>>>>>>>>> vacation. This current harassment just has fewer outright lies in it.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ
If Nyikos can't control himself he should be banned from TO. I do not
follow Nyikos around TO and harass the asshole, and there is no reason
for him to harass anyone. Elsewhere Nyikos is comparing himself to >>>>>>>>>> Kleinman. Kleinman was just about an order of magnitude worse than >>>>>>>>>> Nyikos. Klienman started his harassment because he was wrong about >>>>>>>>>> something stupid. He claimed that he could use the product rule >>>>>>>>>> (multiply the two individual probabilities to calculate the >>>>>>>>>> probabilities of both occurring in the same cell) for two mutations >>>>>>>>>> occurring in the same cell lineage, but his example was that they were
occurring in different generations. He was obviously wrong and his own
reference told him that the product rule had issues when the events were
temporally separated. I gave him the Behe and Snokes reference, and how
they dealt with the issue of two mutations occurring in the same cell
lineage, but Kleinman would not accept that he was wrong, and started
lying about me, and claiming that I didn't know the math. Kleinman >>>>>>>>>> would post to me and tell the same lies in multiple posts in multiple
threads nearly every day for around a year. It didn't matter what the
topic of the thread was, the same harassing claims would be made over
and over. Just a few weeks should have been enough, but Kleinman could
not stop himself, and I asked that he be banned.
Nyikos is the same way except Nyikos has been less insane about his >>>>>>>>>> harassing efforts. Nyikos would post to me on any topic and lie about
the past. It was insane. I had to create "REPOSTS" that contained all
the evidence that Nyikos was lying about the past, and I reposted them
when he started to lie about the past again. That should have ended a
decade ago with his "Dirty Debating Thread" that Nyikos had started, in
order to harass me. I had already stopped reading most of what Nyikos
posted on TO and just basically dealt with what he posted to me. Nyikos
had to come to me and tell me that I had to address the stupid lies that
he was posting in the dirty debating thread. Nyikos has been lying >>>>>>>>>> about the issues he lied about in that thread for over a decade. His >>>>>>>>>> insane last effort made him quit harassing me about those issues (it has
been around half a year, and Nyikos could start back up at anytime, but
this has been the longest break in his harassment about those issues >>>>>>>>>> since Nyikos returned in Dec 2010) but Nyikos can't give up on the >>>>>>>>>> insane harassment.
This is the thread that has ended the Nyikosian harassment about the >>>>>>>>>> Dirty debating thread from back in Aug 2022. Since then Nyikos stopped
incessantly lying about these issues, but he decided to create new >>>>>>>>>> stupidity to harass me about.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/0GJ7i2VKEbg/m/8VgLI1iOAAAJ
Really, it took Nyikos over a decade to stop harassing me about those
issues. He may start up again, but his previous longest break that I >>>>>>>>>> recall was around 3 months. Nyikos has routinely reached his limit for
lying about the same thing and will give it up for a month or two, but
only restarts lying about the past once he thinks that it is OK to do so
again. He has no reason to keep harassing me.
The harassment about the dirty debating issues should have ended long
before the later part of last year. What consistently happens is that
Nyikos resorts to broadening the topics that he has to lie about. He >>>>>>>>>> has always known that he was wrong about the involvement of the ID perps
in the bait and switch, and all of the dirty debating nonsense >>>>>>>>>> accumulated due to his propensity to lie about other issues in order to
harass me about his being wrong about something as stupid as the ID >>>>>>>>>> perps running the teach ID scam. He got shut down hard last August and
has been accumulating more stupidity to harass me about since. The >>>>>>>>>> harassment should have never started. Kleinman may have been an order of
magnitude worse than Nyikos in terms of frequency, but Nyikos has been
at it for over a decade. Enough is enough.
Probably the saddest thing about the Nykosian harassment over the years
is that Nyikos is always shown to be the lying asshole. He has behaved
this way for over a decade (since Dec 2010) and I do not recall anything
FTR, the word "spams" is inappropriate in this kind of context. Strictly speaking, "spam" is
unwanted advertising.
On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 02:02:18 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by jillery <[email protected]>:
On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 14:17:52 -0700, Bob Casanova <[email protected]>And all of the above is a prime example of straining at
wrote:
The following is a good example of Casanova failing to follow his own >>advice to ignore posts and posters he find annoying. This is good
evidence of his lack of self-discipline.
On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 00:19:23 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by jillery <[email protected]>:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 20:17:24 -0700, Bob Casanova <[email protected]> >>>>wrote:So you can't even remember your own posts, such as the one
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 19:39:33 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by jillery <[email protected]>:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 09:13:26 -0700, Bob Casanova <[email protected]> >>>>>>wrote:No need for me to "finish" anything I didn't start; it was
On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 08:33:54 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by jillery <[email protected]>:
It's curious the following inspires no cries of "off-topic" or >>>>>>>>"killfiles are your friend" or "burning irony" from the peanut >>>>>>>>gallery.Just can't let it drop, can you?
Don't start what you can't/won't finish.
your decision to restart it. Everyone knows you can't let it
drop; that chip on your shoulder is just too heavy.
<CrapSnip>
Yet another willfully stupid lie. You, Bob Casanova, are the one who >>>>regularly spams "Killfiles are your friends". Don't blame me for what >>>>you do, you blatantly willfully stupid liar.
just above in which *you* restarted the crap about killfiles
(from over a week ago) and "off-topic (from *months* ago)"?
OK. It was over until *you* brought it up with your usual
snark.
The above is a good example of Casanova ignoring what I posted while >>ignoring to what "the following" refers. "the following" is similar
to a Nazi and a pedophile in a knife fight over how best to abuse
Jewish children. It's arguably not on-topic to T.O., and definitely
not something which Casanova should support. Apparently his mileage >>varies.
And FYI, referencing killfiles in response to a post about
idiots who (IMHO; YMMV) should be ignored is not spam except
in jilleryWorld.
The above is a good example of Casanova pretending to know the
etymology of "spam", yet another typical example of Casanova claiming
facts about which he has no idea what he's talking about:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrZyZn5nVks>
gnats while swallowing camels. Typical lately, though.
On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 19:14:44 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]" ><[email protected]> wrote:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 5:40:39?AM UTC-4, Öö Tiib wrote:
[...]
It is clearly jillery who mentions phrase "Killfiles are your friends" more
than anyone else. IOW spams about it.
FTR, the word "spams" is inappropriate in this kind of context. Strictly speaking, "spam" is
unwanted advertising.
So speaks the person who regularly tries to redefine words to suit
himself as in your feeble attempt to redefine "agnostic" to
accommodate your lies about me.
On 3/27/23 4:29 PM, RonO wrote:
On 3/27/2023 11:10 AM, Mark Isaak wrote:[...]
Two bits of advice for RonO and others in his position:
1. When you respond to harassment, make sure your response is less
than half as long as the post you are responding to. (This does not
apply to disagreements over substantive, on-topic issues.)
This doesn't work for Nyikos. What works is something like the Holy
Water Reposts that I resorted to whenever Nyikos started lying about the
same thing. Nyikos demands evidence, but Nyikos will snip out (usually
without attribution) what he can't deal with and pretend that it never
existed or flat out lie about what he just snipped out. He has some
weird notion of a self contained lie, and if the material he is lying
about is no longer in the post that he is telling the lie in, it is not
a self contained lie, so he isn't a liar. He also has a limit for
snipping and running from the same material. Doing the same dishonest
and stupid thing is OK, but he tried not to do it three times. There
have been times when he has messed up and done the same stupid and
dishonest snipping 3 times, and he will go back to the post and put the
material back in and then try to obfuscate about the reason he snipped
it out in the first place. It all adds up to making him reach those
limits as quickly as possible so that he will quit his harassment for a
while. That is how it has been for over a decade, and why the holy
water reposts have been the most effective control over the Nyikosian
harassment. The only problem has been is that Nyikos will just start
lying about something else from the past, and I end up making up another
holy water repost.
Judging by your own comments, including your desire for a ban, what you >describe above as "what works" doesn't work.
What works is responding to Nyikos by clipping out all his personal and >off-topic remarks. Of course, that only works if your idea of "works" >includes not getting caught up in such comments. If you *want* to react
and respond to them, then reacting and responding to them is what works,
and banning him would not work at all.
2. When you find yourself wrestling with a pig in the mud, remember
that the pig likes it.
There should be no pigs to wrestle with.
People who want to force utopias into existence end up building dystopias.
On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 9:15:41 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
I never had to score a victory. The ID perps killed ID on TO. I just
rubbed the IDiot's faces in their reality, and that is all that I had to
do. Just go back and check. All that I had to do was list the Top Six
and give the links to what the ID perps were claiming about them.
My mistake. I thought the problem with your posts was a matter
of pugilistic style. I was wrong. It is a profound delusion that goes
deeper than I had imagined. "I just rubbed the IDiot's faces ...".
Only in your self-aggrandized imagination. But go ahead and
ignore me. Tattoo another windmill on your arm, oh valiant warrior.
May you savor your conquests in your dotage.
On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 9:15:41 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
I never had to score a victory. The ID perps killed ID on TO. I just
rubbed the IDiot's faces in their reality, and that is all that I had to
do. Just go back and check. All that I had to do was list the Top Six
and give the links to what the ID perps were claiming about them.
My mistake. I thought the problem with your posts was a matter
of pugilistic style. I was wrong. It is a profound delusion that goes
deeper than I had imagined. "I just rubbed the IDiot's faces ...".
Only in your self-aggrandized imagination. But go ahead and
ignore me. Tattoo another windmill on your arm, oh valiant warrior.
May you savor your conquests in your dotage.
On 3/27/2023 6:48 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 7:15:40 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/27/2023 6:05 AM, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 6:55:40 AM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/27/2023 4:50 AM, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 9:40:39 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
On 3/26/2023 8:28 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 8:50:39 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote: >>>>>>>> On 3/26/2023 6:22 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 6:50:39 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 3/19/2023 4:23 PM, RonO wrote:
On 3/8/2023 7:37 PM, RonO wrote:It looks like I will have to ask for Nyikos to be banned for his >>>>>>>>>> obnoxious harassing behavior. If Nyikos wants to defend himself he
On 3/4/2023 9:09 PM, RonO wrote:
The last episode of the documentary series Frozen Planet II was just
on TV. They had how bad global warming is to the Arctic environment
and wild life. The ending claimed that we could change this and
limit global warming to an additional 1.5 degrees. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
Species like penguins and polar bears are having a hard time, but it
should have been noted that things were worse during the last warm
period between glaciation. 130,000 years ago temperatures got warmer
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels
that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian
Ocean and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood
and terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
It seems that what we should be working on is determining how the ice
age species made it through that last environmental catastrophe that
has been occurring around every hundred thousand years for the last
million years. The intervals between warm periods have been getting
longer in the last half million years, and life on earth hasn't been
able to adapt to that very effectively. Most of the ice age >>>>>>>>>>>>> megafauna likely nearly went extinct the last warm period, and even
though their populations came back, the populations were likely not
healthy enough to survive this warm period. No wolly rhino, >>>>>>>>>>>>> mastodons, and mammoths exist anywhere. The giant bears and saber
toothed cats that fed on them didn't make it. Species like polar
bears and penguins may not survive this warm period, and could go the
way of the mammoth.
We likely need to figure out how these species survived the last warm
period that became worse than current conditions. More ice melted
last time and sea levels were as high as they are predicting for this
warm period. In order to maintain viable populations we need to make
those regions that allowed the survival of ice age species available
to these animals. More of their habitat was lost last warm period,
but the existing arctic species found somewhere to survive. We need
to figure out what those survival places were and make them available
to the species that need them.
For the penguin example, it is obvious that the last warm period the
Adele penguins had to find some place else to nest. Finding where
that was and relocating animals is likely the best way to get a large
enough population through this warm period.
The issue with man made global warming is the prediction that was put
out a few years ago that we might skip the next glacial period and
the warm period might last a hundred thousand years longer than usual.
The warm period is not the normal environment for temperate >>>>>>>>>>>>> latitudes. For the last million years most of the time the temperate
latitudes have had an arctic alpine environment. Arctic species are
adapted to what usually exists. The current environment has them
limited to the icy regions of the world, and their environment has
been rollercoasting for the last couple million years. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
Ron Okimoto
I don't want to interact with a lying asshole like Nyikos, but I will
put up the supporting evidence for what I had claimed during >>>>>>>>>>>> discussions on this topic, in order to demonstrate what an asshole
Nyikos is. Why wouldn't he look this stuff up for himself instead of
being the asshole that he is and making the claims that he made?
Evidence that there were at least two warm periods within the last
half million years where more ice melted than has melted at this time
in the current warm period.
https://academic.oup.com/zoolinnean/article/186/3/666/5487031?login=false
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20
meters higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and
a second one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure
3. I would note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to
occur if we do not curb global warming.
The wiki for ice ages has a graph on temperature and amount of ice.
It shows that it got warmer than the current warm period twice in the
last 500,000 years. More ice melted 136,000 years ago, and the rail
paper claims that sea level was 20 meters higher than today. >>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32795436/
This paper is open access and notes the population decline of wooly
rhinos over the past 1 million years after the cold periods got longer
than 40,000 years. The same trend was noted in the genomes of wooly
mammoths. It wasn't just the ice age arctic and alpine species that
were affected by the extension of the cold period. Temperate species
such as peacocks, junglefowl and tigers show the same decline in
effective population size over this time period. So the extended cold
periods were hard on the temperate species (probably because their
habitat was restricted for a longer period of time. The arctic >>>>>>>>>>>> species population decline was likely due to having a longer time to
adapt to the arctic conditions only to have that habitat greatly
reduced for a short, but devestating period of time. The rhinos,
mastadon and mammoth didn't make it through this warm period, but
their decline started a million years ago.
Popular science article on the rhino genome.
https://phys.org/news/2020-08-ancient-genomes-woolly-rhinos-extinct.html
Ron Okimoto
I will note that Nyikos does what he does just to harass me. He >>>>>>>>>>> obviously had no interest in this topic. His own projection has him
doing it because he is a sadistic hate filled maniac that thinks that he
is righting some wrong done to him in the past. Nyikos has always
brought it all onto himself. He has just added to the things that he
can't deal with in his failed attempts to lie about the past. No one
should have been subjected to the Nyikosian stupidity and harassment for
over a decade. It should be apparent that Nyikos only posted the junk
to harass me because he wasn't interested in the topic enough to read
the cited paper in order to figure out what it actually supported.
This behavior should end. I do not stalk Nyikos around TO, and Nyikos
should not be allowed to continue to do what he does. >>>>>>>>>>>
Nyikios' last attempt at harassment that should have been his last for
any sane individual.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ
This type of stupidity due to Nyikosian harassment should never take
place, but it just never ends.
I didn't expect Nyikos to address these two points because he was just
plain wrong about them, and his nit picking doesn't do much to change
that fact. I don't care about his issues with other posters. His first
attempted response was pathetic, and he did try again. He did nothing
to counter the fact that there were at least two warm interglacial
periods before the current one where the temperatures were higher and
more ice melted. His stupid flailing about being wrong and the fact
that he should have been able to figure it out for himself is just
stupid. He even acknowledges that the Wiki supports me, but he makes
some stupid comment about the inversion of the graph that simply doesn't
matter at all. His stupid comments about the rail extinction example is
just nonsense. I used that paper to demonstrate that during the last
interglacial sea levels were 20 meters higher then they are today, and
that more ice melted in the last interglacial. The Nyikosian denial
that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong
about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted. >>>>>>>>>>>
For the rhino example the population decline did start more than a
million years ago, but so what? It still happened. Two interglacials
ago the temperatures did not get as warm as the current period, and the
species of rhino under discussion and some mammoths did come through
pretty well and they show an increase in effective population size
during the cold period before the last previous interglacial where
temperatures got higher than they are today and more ice melted than has
melted currently. If Nyikos had bothered to read the paper for >>>>>>>>>>> comprehension he would have understood that the authors admit that there
was a population crash during the last warm period that is not picked up
by their effective population size estimates. They cite a wooly mammoth
paper as an example of the population crash that they expected to
happen. They try to explain the long tail where the effective >>>>>>>>>>> population size estimates stay high before bottoming out to a low long
after the population had recovered during the last cold period. Their
explanation was that during the high temperature and low ice period
multiple small isolated populations survived the bottleneck, and when
they could expand out into more territory they interbred. They thought
that males moving between populations could accomplish a population
mixing that would reestablish genetic diversity that had been preserved
in the small isolated populations. In our paper that noted the decline
in genetic diversity of domestic chickens we stated the obvious >>>>>>>>>>> conclusion that we could recreate a population with nearly all of the
genetic diversity domestic chickens started with by crossing the extant
domestic breeds together. Each population had lost diversity over time
even as their total population increased because of how they were
propagated as small flocks in isolated villages, but each population had
retained a different bit of the original genetic variation, and if
combined would restore a lot of the genetic variation that domestic
chickens started with.
All this means is that the paper acknowledged that there had been a
severe population crash during the last interglacial that was not picked
up by their method of calculating effective population size. They also
admit that they can't explain why their estimate of effective population
size continues to decline for tens of thousands of years after the
population had likely regained a stable size of around 100,000 breeding
females. This decline is likely just a reflection of the population
crash that occurred before the population recovery because you can remix
the genetic variation, but as soon as you start crossing relatives you
are going to start loosing the genetic variation. For some reason their
methods do not pick up the population crash that they expected to
happen, and instead shows a gradual decline even after the bottle neck
was resolved and a large stable population was being maintained for 10s
of thousands of years during this period of decline. They could not
explain the long decline in effective population size and the final low
that did not reflect the larger population size estimate obtained by
other means. For some reason the population bottleneck during the
previous interglacial took a long time to manifest in the rhino genome,
and did not show a recovery until after the glacial maximum when the
population had actually recovered just a few thousand years after the
last warm period ended. They can't explain why the effective population
estimate continued to decline and bottomed out over a period when other
estimates indicated that a stable population of around 100,000 breeding
females was reestablished soon after the last warm period and this
population was relatively stable over a period of 100,000 years. >>>>>>>>>>>
So the Nyikosian response is the usual Nyikosian null response. What
Nyikos was wrong about, he is still wrong about. Nit picking and >>>>>>>>>>> outright stupidity will not support the harassment.
This harassment should stop. The only reason to continue the harassment
is the insane behavior of Nyikos. For whatever reason he has never been
able to deal with the fact that he has been wrong about multiple things
like the present examples. All the craziness with the ID scam was due
to Nyikos' first mistake when he was wrong about the Discovery >>>>>>>>>>> Institute's involvement in the bait and switch that has been going on
for over 20 years. He blames me for his bumbling stupidity and >>>>>>>>>>> dishonesty since. It is just nuts because he wouldn't have as much of
his assoholic behavior to blame me for if he had never started his
harassment due to simply being shown to be wrong about something.
I maintain as little interaction with the lying asshole as is possible,
and if the baseless harassment continues Nyikos should be banned from
TO. I had enjoyed a fairly long break from the assoholic behavior
during the recent Nykosian vacation, and that break should be extended
indefinitely. If Nyikos can't control his assoholic behavior, he should
be stopped from doing it. Nyikos didn't care if he was wrong about the
junk, it was just harassment. He obviously didn't care enough about
being wrong to do what needed to be done in order to determine that he
was wrong, nor understand the paper that was used to counter his denial.
Just use the link and go back to the last such episode to determine
how tragically sad Nyikos has always been.
The last such Nykosian episode:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ
I will likely be referring to this post to make my case in the future if
this harassment continues.
Ron Okimoto
should start looking for any harassing posts that had a positive outcome
for him. There may be one or two, but my guess is that 99.9 percent of
Nyikos' posts to me have contained senseless harassing material. All
his lies about the past never worked out for him, so around 80 to 90% of
his harassing posts over the last decade have been a dead loss for
Nyikos. It is apparent that it has been pretty much all harassment
because around a year after Nyikos' return; a year of his senseless
stupidity and lies about the Discovery Institute and the creationist ID
scam, Nyikos claimed that he had knocked me down 3 times. He claimed
that he would post the knockdowns within a couple weeks of his posting
his initial knockdown and claims of having two more to post. So even to
Nyikos his efforts were just harassment and trying to knock me down. The
sad thing is that Nyikos could not find anything in that years worth of
harassing posts that he could list as a win for him. He had always just
obfuscated the issue, run and or lied to his limit for lying. Nyikos
kept claiming that the knockdowns were still coming for around 3 years,
and never produced anything that could be considered positive for >>>>>>>>>> Nyikos. The claims ended with the Nyikosian claim that he had delivered
the third knockdown, but Nyikos would not provide a link nor tell me
where the post was supposed to be. It had been 3 additional years of
assoholic harassing posts, and they all turned out like the current
example. Nyikos never got any better as the harassment has continued
for over a decade. If Nyikos wants to claim that it hasn't been over a
decade of assoholic harassment, he should be able to produce hundreds of
posts where he had a legitimate beef. This example and the previous
example (already linked to in previous posts) obviously do not qualify.
Someone might think that even a bumbling assoholic harasser would have
multiple examples where his harassment was justified in some legitimate
way, but Nyikos has never cared if he had any legitimate reason to
harass me, and his degenerate record demonstrates that. Over a decade
of harassment, and what does Nyikos have to show for it? >>>>>>>>>>
Nyikos should be required to produce any posts that Nyikos made to
harass me for over a decade that he thinks were legitimate and had a
positive outcome for the loser. If he ever had any legitimate reasons
for doing what he has done he should have hundreds of examples, but he
couldn't come up with any for the first 4 years of his harassment, and I
don't recall any examples since. Even if Nyikos could scrounge up 1 or
2 examples (I doubt it) how sad would that be for over a decade of
senseless harassment?
This post will likely be one of them that will be submitted to Grieg in
the request to ban Nyikos from TO. It doesn't look like Nyikos is able
to stop himself from doing what he has done since he came back to TO.
Over a decade of this type of stupid senseless harassment should be
enough for any sadistic asshole like Nyikos. I do not stalk Nyikos
around TO. It is Nyikos that nearly always has to post his harassing
posts to me. There is no reason for it to continue. If Nyikos can't
control his assoholic tendencies he should be made to do so. It has
been really sad that it takes putting Nyikos down like the rabid dog
that he is in no uncertain terms until he reaches his limit for lying
about the stupid junk that he posts. The harassment for over a decade
is due to Nyikos being wrong about something in, probably, the first
post he posted after his return. Nyikos had a, likely involuntary,
absence, from TO for nearly a decade, and made his return Dec. 2010.
For Nyikosian reasons he has had to lie about that post in anyway that
he can, and has had to maintain his harassment due to just being wrong
about something. It never gets any better because Nyikos just generates
more that he has to lie about in his sadistic endeavor. This incessant
harassment has never worked out well for Nyikos because there was never
any legitimate reason for the harassment to start.
The lies and nonsensical harrassment continues, and if it doesn't stop I
will be forced to formally get Grieg into this and start the process for
getting Nyikos removed from TO. I do not harass Nyikos, and there is no
sane reason for Nyikos to continue his sadistic behavior. He knows that
he is a sadistic maniac because that is what he projects onto me when I
am being the victim of his abuse. Over a decade of this type of >>>>>>>>>> stupidity should be long enough for anyone. Nyikos obviously didn't
care enough about the current topic to understand what he was harassing
me about, and now just has to lie about the effort to continue his
harassment. Enough is enough, and Nyikos should be banned if he can't
restrain himself.
I have repeatedly told the asshole that I do not care about his issues
with other posters. Why would anyone? Still in his last response he
continues to whine about other posters even after being informed as to
how assoholic such behavior is. It is just insane and it should stop.
Anyone just has to look at other posters responding to the junk Nyikos
writes about them in his posts that are supposedly addressing my posts.
I do not even read most of what Nyikos posts on TO, so he has free reign
to lie about me to other posters, but by this time my guess is that
there aren't very many TO posters that do not understand what a lying
asshole Nyikos has always been. There is no sane reason for Nyikos to
harass me as he continues to do.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/SX7EUqzOAAAJ
Nyikos snips and runs from what he can't deal with, and that is obvious
in the above link. He then lies about one of the issues that he >>>>>>>>>> harassed me about. It is a stupid lie, and I can't figure out why >>>>>>>>>> anyone would think that, that type of response was valid. >>>>>>>>>>
Nyikos initial harassing claims:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/7z8nZ0LbAgAJ
QUOTE:
130,000 years ago temperatures got warmerthose islands,
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels
that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian Ocean
and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood and >>>>>>>>>>> terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands. >>>>>>>>>> If you have a source for this, did it actually cite studies done on
or did it merely deduce these things from the average global sea level rise?
END QUOTE:
Nyikos obviously is harassing me about citations for temperature, more
ice melting and sea levels rising higher than they are now. He should
have countered with references claiming otherwise, but he would have
found collaborating evidence if he had bothered to check things out himself.
Nyikos' bogus harassing response after getting reference: >>>>>>>>>>
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/5ykTUUo6BgAJ
QUOTE:
A flightless species of rail went extinct when sea levels were 20 metersRon O talks about little birds instead of megafauna, leaving his earlier
higher then they are now. This occurred 136,000 years ago, and a second
one 3 ice ages ago (340,000 years ago) are shown in Figure 3. I would
note that 20 meters more is what has been predicted to occur if we do
not curb global warming.
assertion high and dry.
END QUOTE:
Nyikos' response to having his stupidity noted:
Nyikos obviously posted this harassement with no regard to wanting to
understand much of what he was harassing me about.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/SX7EUqzOAAAJ\
QUOTE:
The Nyikosian denialgrip of what is, at best, a bunch of false recollections. >>>>>>>>>> END QUOTE:
that rails are not megafauna was just nonsense. Nyikos was just wrong
about interglacial temperatures and how much ice melted. >>>>>>>>>> I never said anything about either of those two topics. Ron O is in the
Nyikos just lies, and then claims that it is my false recollection that
is the issue. Nyikos obviously is not interested in this topic enough
to track his own harassing claims.
If this type of harassment continues I will ask for Nyikos to be banned
from TO. The last instance should have been enough for anyone, but not
for an assoholic poster like Nyikos.
The link below is the last example that Nyikos snipped out of his >>>>>>>>>> responses. It occurred just before Nyikos took his recent 2 month >>>>>>>>>> vacation. This current harassment just has fewer outright lies in it.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/wLSRK67XcYs/m/Dj0vda_tAgAJ
If Nyikos can't control himself he should be banned from TO. I do not
follow Nyikos around TO and harass the asshole, and there is no reason
for him to harass anyone. Elsewhere Nyikos is comparing himself to
Kleinman. Kleinman was just about an order of magnitude worse than
Nyikos. Klienman started his harassment because he was wrong about
something stupid. He claimed that he could use the product rule >>>>>>>>>> (multiply the two individual probabilities to calculate the >>>>>>>>>> probabilities of both occurring in the same cell) for two mutations
occurring in the same cell lineage, but his example was that they were
occurring in different generations. He was obviously wrong and his own
reference told him that the product rule had issues when the events were
temporally separated. I gave him the Behe and Snokes reference, and how
they dealt with the issue of two mutations occurring in the same cell
lineage, but Kleinman would not accept that he was wrong, and started
lying about me, and claiming that I didn't know the math. Kleinman
would post to me and tell the same lies in multiple posts in multiple
threads nearly every day for around a year. It didn't matter what the
topic of the thread was, the same harassing claims would be made over
and over. Just a few weeks should have been enough, but Kleinman could
not stop himself, and I asked that he be banned.
Nyikos is the same way except Nyikos has been less insane about his
harassing efforts. Nyikos would post to me on any topic and lie about
the past. It was insane. I had to create "REPOSTS" that contained all
the evidence that Nyikos was lying about the past, and I reposted them
when he started to lie about the past again. That should have ended a
decade ago with his "Dirty Debating Thread" that Nyikos had started, in
order to harass me. I had already stopped reading most of what Nyikos
posted on TO and just basically dealt with what he posted to me. Nyikos
had to come to me and tell me that I had to address the stupid lies that
he was posting in the dirty debating thread. Nyikos has been lying
about the issues he lied about in that thread for over a decade. His
insane last effort made him quit harassing me about those issues (it has
been around half a year, and Nyikos could start back up at anytime, but
this has been the longest break in his harassment about those issues
since Nyikos returned in Dec 2010) but Nyikos can't give up on the
insane harassment.
This is the thread that has ended the Nyikosian harassment about the
Dirty debating thread from back in Aug 2022. Since then Nyikos stopped
incessantly lying about these issues, but he decided to create new
stupidity to harass me about.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/0GJ7i2VKEbg/m/8VgLI1iOAAAJ
Really, it took Nyikos over a decade to stop harassing me about those
issues. He may start up again, but his previous longest break that I
recall was around 3 months. Nyikos has routinely reached his limit for
On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 9:20:41 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
[ … ]
Giving Nyikos power is what you are doing. Enabling the assholeI enable Nyikos to exactly the same extent that I enable you, by
should> make you feel pretty low. That shouldn't happen to anyone. No
should have to feel slimy and dirty for supporting Nyikosianendeavors.
refraining from asking that either of you be banned. I feel fine about
it in both cases. And now I'll demonstrate how to refrain from engaging
with people one finds annoying.
Lawyer Daggett <[email protected]> wrote:
On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 9:15:41 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
I never had to score a victory. The ID perps killed ID on TO. I just
rubbed the IDiot's faces in their reality, and that is all that I had to >> do. Just go back and check. All that I had to do was list the Top Six
and give the links to what the ID perps were claiming about them.
My mistake. I thought the problem with your posts was a matter
of pugilistic style. I was wrong. It is a profound delusion that goes deeper than I had imagined. "I just rubbed the IDiot's faces ...".
Only in your self-aggrandized imagination. But go ahead and
ignore me. Tattoo another windmill on your arm, oh valiant warrior.
May you savor your conquests in your dotage.
I’m sure keelhauling Ron will change his behavior. /sarcasm
On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 9:15:41?PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
I never had to score a victory. The ID perps killed ID on TO. I just
rubbed the IDiot's faces in their reality, and that is all that I had to
do. Just go back and check. All that I had to do was list the Top Six
and give the links to what the ID perps were claiming about them.
My mistake. I thought the problem with your posts was a matter
of pugilistic style. I was wrong. It is a profound delusion that goes
deeper than I had imagined. "I just rubbed the IDiot's faces ...".
Only in your self-aggrandized imagination. But go ahead and
ignore me. Tattoo another windmill on your arm, oh valiant warrior.
May you savor your conquests in your dotage.
I never had to score a victory. The ID perps killed ID on TO. I just rubbed the IDiot's faces in their reality, and that is all that I had to do. Just go back and check. All that I had to do was list the Top Six
and give the links to what the ID perps were claiming about them. I
never had to refute anything. Nyikos even claimed that I wasn't
refuting the Top Six, and I had to explain what I was doing and he ran.
Like all the other IDiots, Nyikos couldn't deal honestly with the Top
Six. Have you ever seen any of the ID perps deal honestly with the Top
Six and try to use them to build their best explanation for intelligent design in nature? Any IDiotic creationist that has tried to do that
doesn't remain an IDiot for long.
On 3/28/23 6:11 PM, RonO wrote:
I never had to score a victory. The ID perps killed ID on TO. I just
rubbed the IDiot's faces in their reality, and that is all that I had
to do. Just go back and check. All that I had to do was list the Top
Six and give the links to what the ID perps were claiming about them.
I never had to refute anything. Nyikos even claimed that I wasn't
refuting the Top Six, and I had to explain what I was doing and he
ran. Like all the other IDiots, Nyikos couldn't deal honestly with the
Top Six. Have you ever seen any of the ID perps deal honestly with
the Top Six and try to use them to build their best explanation for
intelligent design in nature? Any IDiotic creationist that has tried
to do that doesn't remain an IDiot for long.
Have you read recent ICR material? ID may be dead in the Discovery Institute, but it is alive and thriving in the American public.
On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 19:14:44 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
FTR, the word "spams" is inappropriate in this kind of context. Strictly speaking, "spam" is
unwanted advertising.
Incorrect. Strictly speaking, "spam" has no strict meaning. Given
its etymology, "spam" is easily understood to refer to comments which
are repetitive and irrelevant.
More to the point, Casanova posts "killfiles are your friends" often
enough that he identifies with it in replies to me.
On 3/28/23 6:11 PM, RonO wrote:
I never had to score a victory. The ID perps killed ID on TO. I just
rubbed the IDiot's faces in their reality, and that is all that I had to
do. Just go back and check. All that I had to do was list the Top Six >> and give the links to what the ID perps were claiming about them. I
never had to refute anything. Nyikos even claimed that I wasn't
refuting the Top Six, and I had to explain what I was doing and he ran.
Like all the other IDiots, Nyikos couldn't deal honestly with the Top
Six. Have you ever seen any of the ID perps deal honestly with the Top
Six and try to use them to build their best explanation for intelligent
design in nature? Any IDiotic creationist that has tried to do that
doesn't remain an IDiot for long.
Have you read recent ICR material? ID may be dead in the Discovery >Institute, but it is alive and thriving in the American public.
On 2023-03-29 10:45:25 +0000, [email protected] said:
On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 9:20:41?PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
[ … ]
Giving Nyikos power is what you are doing. Enabling the assholeI enable Nyikos to exactly the same extent that I enable you, by
should> make you feel pretty low. That shouldn't happen to anyone. No
should have to feel slimy and dirty for supporting Nyikosianendeavors.
refraining from asking that either of you be banned. I feel fine about
it in both cases. And now I'll demonstrate how to refrain from engaging
with people one finds annoying.
Was it really worthwhile to use 42747 characters to post a couple of sentences?
Why do so many people on this group refuse to snip?
On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 3:15:45?AM UTC-4, jillery wrote:
On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 19:14:44 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
FTR, the word "spams" is inappropriate in this kind of context. Strictly speaking, "spam" is
unwanted advertising.
Incorrect. Strictly speaking, "spam" has no strict meaning. Given
its etymology, "spam" is easily understood to refer to comments which
are repetitive and irrelevant.
I'm surprised you didn't seem to notice the direct reply I made to you close to ten (10)
hours before you did this post.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/W08nt7FuAgAJtract, a political rant about the Armenian Genocide, and an advertisement for green card legal services."
Re: Frozen Planet II
Mar 28, 2023, 5:30:44?PM
In this linked post, I gave you the Usenet etymology:
"Over on Usenet, a precursor to the Internet that functions much like today’s Internet forums, “spam” was used to refer to excessive multiple posting across multiple forums and threads. The earliest Usenet spam included a fundamentalist religious
-- https://www.malwarebytes.com/spam
It seems to follow from this, that unless Casanova crossposted his FYI statement to other groups,
he is on solid ground.
On 2023-03-29 10:45:25 +0000, [email protected] said:
On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 9:20:41 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
[ … ]
Giving Nyikos power is what you are doing. Enabling the assholeI enable Nyikos to exactly the same extent that I enable you, by
should> make you feel pretty low. That shouldn't happen to anyone. No
should have to feel slimy and dirty for supporting Nyikosianendeavors.
refraining from asking that either of you be banned. I feel fine about
it in both cases. And now I'll demonstrate how to refrain from
engaging with people one finds annoying.
Was it really worthwhile to use 42747 characters to post a couple of sentences?
Why do so many people on this group refuse to snip?
On 3/29/2023 6:22 AM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
On 2023-03-29 10:45:25 +0000, [email protected] said:
On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 9:20:41 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
[ … ]
Giving Nyikos power is what you are doing. Enabling the assholeI enable Nyikos to exactly the same extent that I enable you, by
should> make you feel pretty low. That shouldn't happen to anyone. No
should have to feel slimy and dirty for supporting Nyikosianendeavors.
refraining from asking that either of you be banned. I feel fine about
it in both cases. And now I'll demonstrate how to refrain from engaging
with people one finds annoying.
Was it really worthwhile to use 42747 characters to post a couple of sentences?
Why do so many people on this group refuse to snip?
I got out of the habit because of Nyikos. Nyikos will manipulate posts without attribution, and the only way to figure out what he has done is
to leave the material in for reference. It used to be when I first
started reading TO in 1993 (some posters were still working with 300
baud modems) objections would be routinely made to SNIP out the
unneeded material, but the Nyikosian return in 2010 stopped that
practice for me. By 2010 it was just habit and something that you
would routinely do, but Nyikos made it necessary to keep the material
just so that you had some idea of where to start to look into what he
was lying about, and there wasn't any reason to worry about download
times for the posts. My guess is that Nyikos also stopped it for
others.
On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 16:56:50 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 3:15:45?AM UTC-4, jillery wrote:
On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 19:14:44 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
FTR, the word "spams" is inappropriate in this kind of context. Strictly speaking, "spam" is
unwanted advertising.
Incorrect. Strictly speaking, "spam" has no strict meaning. Given
its etymology, "spam" is easily understood to refer to comments which
are repetitive and irrelevant.
I'm surprised you didn't seem to notice the direct reply I made to you close to ten (10)
hours before you did this post.
I'm surprised you didn't seem to care I had already replied.
religious tract, a political rant about the Armenian Genocide, and an advertisement for green card legal services."https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/ovJitGN1A6w/m/W08nt7FuAgAJ
Re: Frozen Planet II
Mar 28, 2023, 5:30:44?PM
In this linked post, I gave you the Usenet etymology:
"Over on Usenet, a precursor to the Internet that functions much like today’s Internet forums, “spam” was used to refer to excessive multiple posting across multiple forums and threads. The earliest Usenet spam included a fundamentalist
-- https://www.malwarebytes.com/spam
It seems to follow from this, that unless Casanova crossposted his FYI statement to other groups,I acknowledge your cite describes the above meaning. It also
he is on solid ground.
describes this meaning:
"Spam is any kind of unwanted, unsolicited digital communication that
gets sent out in bulk."
And this meaning:
"The use of the word “spam” in this context, i.e. loud annoying messaging, caught on—to the chagrin of Hormel Foods, the maker of
Spam."
Clearly, your cite doesn't identify a "strict" meaning, as you
claimed, and instead identifies multiple and varied meanings.
Dictionary.com also gives this meaning:
"disruptive online messages"
And Google gives this meaning:
"irrelevant or inappropriate messages sent on the internet to a large
number of recipients."
All of which are consistent with my expressed meaning, of comments
which are repetitive and irrelevant.
And to be precise, I neither state, imply, or believe, my expressed
meaning is the only meaning, but is consistent with the spirit of its
common use, as the above cited meanings illustrate, as I stated
previously.
More to the point, Casanova posts "killfiles are your friends" often
enough that he identifies with it in replies to me.
On 2023-03-30 11:38:28 +0000, RonO said:
On 3/29/2023 6:22 AM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
On 2023-03-29 10:45:25 +0000, [email protected] said:
On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 9:20:41 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
[ … ]
Giving Nyikos power is what you are doing. Enabling the assholeI enable Nyikos to exactly the same extent that I enable you, by
should> make you feel pretty low. That shouldn't happen to anyone. No >>>>> one> should have to feel slimy and dirty for supporting Nyikosian
endeavors.
refraining from asking that either of you be banned. I feel fine about >>>> it in both cases. And now I'll demonstrate how to refrain from engaging >>>> with people one finds annoying.
Was it really worthwhile to use 42747 characters to post a couple of sentences?
Why do so many people on this group refuse to snip?
I got out of the habit because of Nyikos. Nyikos will manipulate posts
without attribution, and the only way to figure out what he has done is
to leave the material in for reference. It used to be when I first
started reading TO in 1993 (some posters were still working with 300
baud modems) objections would be routinely made to SNIP out the
unneeded material, but the Nyikosian return in 2010 stopped that
practice for me. By 2010 it was just habit and something that you
would routinely do, but Nyikos made it necessary to keep the material
just so that you had some idea of where to start to look into what he
was lying about, and there wasn't any reason to worry about download
times for the posts. My guess is that Nyikos also stopped it for
others.
Thanks for a coherent reply. I don't agree with it, but at least there
is a reason.
On 2023-03-30 11:38:28 +0000, RonO said:
On 3/29/2023 6:22 AM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
On 2023-03-29 10:45:25 +0000, [email protected] said:
On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 9:20:41 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
[ … ]
Giving Nyikos power is what you are doing. Enabling the assholeI enable Nyikos to exactly the same extent that I enable you, by
should> make you feel pretty low. That shouldn't happen to anyone. No >>>> one> should have to feel slimy and dirty for supporting Nyikosian
endeavors.
refraining from asking that either of you be banned. I feel fine about >>> it in both cases. And now I'll demonstrate how to refrain from engaging >>> with people one finds annoying.
Was it really worthwhile to use 42747 characters to post a couple of sentences?
Why do so many people on this group refuse to snip?
I got out of the habit because of Nyikos.
Nyikos will manipulate posts
without attribution, and the only way to figure out what he has done is
to leave the material in for reference. It used to be when I first
started reading TO in 1993 (some posters were still working with 300
baud modems) objections would be routinely made to SNIP out the
unneeded material, but the Nyikosian return in 2010 stopped that
practice for me. By 2010 it was just habit and something that you
would routinely do, but Nyikos made it necessary to keep the material
just so that you had some idea of where to start to look into what he
was lying about, and there wasn't any reason to worry about download
times for the posts. My guess is that Nyikos also stopped it for
others.
Thanks for a coherent reply. I don't agree with it, but at least there
is a reason.
On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 14:17:05 +0200, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by Athel Cornish-Bowden > <[email protected]>:
On 2023-03-30 11:38:28 +0000, RonO said:
On 3/29/2023 6:22 AM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
On 2023-03-29 10:45:25 +0000, [email protected] said:
On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 9:20:41 PM UTC-4, RonO wrote:
[ … ]
Giving Nyikos power is what you are doing. Enabling the assholeI enable Nyikos to exactly the same extent that I enable you, by
should> make you feel pretty low. That shouldn't happen to anyone. No >>>>> one> should have to feel slimy and dirty for supporting Nyikosian >>>>> endeavors.
refraining from asking that either of you be banned. I feel fine about >>>> it in both cases. And now I'll demonstrate how to refrain from engaging >>>> with people one finds annoying.
Was it really worthwhile to use 42747 characters to post a couple of sentences?
Why do so many people on this group refuse to snip?
I got out of the habit because of Nyikos. Nyikos will manipulate posts
without attribution, and the only way to figure out what he has done is >> to leave the material in for reference. It used to be when I first
started reading TO in 1993 (some posters were still working with 300
baud modems) objections would be routinely made to SNIP out the
unneeded material, but the Nyikosian return in 2010 stopped that
practice for me. By 2010 it was just habit and something that you
would routinely do, but Nyikos made it necessary to keep the material
just so that you had some idea of where to start to look into what he
was lying about, and there wasn't any reason to worry about download
times for the posts. My guess is that Nyikos also stopped it for
others.
Thanks for a coherent reply. I don't agree with it, but at least there
is a reason.
In general, especially here and in the near-defunct
sci.skeptic, snippage, especially unmarked, to remove
context (IOW, to effectively create a strawman in order to
bolster a losing argument) was/is fairly common. As Ron
[falsely alleges], one particular poster is a notorious example.
All of which are consistent with my expressed meaning, of comments
which are repetitive and irrelevant.
On the off chance that you are reading this, Bob, I'd like to call your attention
to this little bit in my reply to jillery on this thread this morning.
____________________________ repost begins ________________
All of which are consistent with my expressed meaning, of comments
which are repetitive and irrelevant.
Perhaps we should put it to a vote of the people here as to whether they
go along with your opinion of Casanova's usage of "Killfiles are your friend' as being "spam."
Some might even agree with Casanova so vigorously that they might post,
"I am Casanova" in analogy with "I am Spartacus" and more recently, "I am Charlie Hebdo."
============================ repost ends=====================
On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 08:40:58 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]" <[email protected]> continues to post his irrelevant and
repetitive comments aka spam:
On the off chance that you are reading this, Bob, I'd like to call your attention
to this little bit in my reply to jillery on this thread this morning.
____________________________ repost begins ________________
All of which are consistent with my expressed meaning, of comments
which are repetitive and irrelevant.
Perhaps we should put it to a vote of the people here as to whether they >go along with your opinion of Casanova's usage of "Killfiles are your friend' as being "spam."
Some might even agree with Casanova so vigorously that they might post,The above is a good example of PeeWee Peter's shit-stirring. As for
"I am Casanova" in analogy with "I am Spartacus" and more recently, "I am Charlie Hebdo."
============================ repost ends=====================
putting anything to a vote, I have zero expectation that anyone would
agree with me even if I said water was wet, and I have every
expectation at least one person would claim offense over it.
--
You're entitled to your own opinions.
You're not entitled to your own facts.
On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 08:40:58 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
continues to post his irrelevant and
repetitive comments aka spam:
On the off chance that you are reading this, Bob, I'd like to call your attention
to this little bit in my reply to jillery on this thread this morning.
____________________________ repost begins ________________
All of which are consistent with my expressed meaning, of comments
which are repetitive and irrelevant.
Perhaps we should put it to a vote of the people here as to whether they >go along with your opinion of Casanova's usage of "Killfiles are your friend' as being "spam."
Some might even agree with Casanova so vigorously that they might post,
"I am Casanova" in analogy with "I am Spartacus" and more recently, "I am Charlie Hebdo."
============================ repost ends=====================
The above is a good example of PeeWee Peter's shit-stirring.
As for putting anything to a vote, I have zero expectation that anyone would agree with me even if I said water was wet, and I have every
expectation at least one person would claim offense over it.
On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 1:35:06?PM UTC-7, jillery wrote:
On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 08:40:58 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> continues to post his irrelevant and
repetitive comments aka spam:
On the off chance that you are reading this, Bob, I'd like to call your attentionThe above is a good example of PeeWee Peter's shit-stirring. As for
to this little bit in my reply to jillery on this thread this morning.
____________________________ repost begins ________________
All of which are consistent with my expressed meaning, of comments
which are repetitive and irrelevant.
Perhaps we should put it to a vote of the people here as to whether they
go along with your opinion of Casanova's usage of "Killfiles are your friend' as being "spam."
Some might even agree with Casanova so vigorously that they might post,
"I am Casanova" in analogy with "I am Spartacus" and more recently, "I am Charlie Hebdo."
============================ repost ends=====================
putting anything to a vote, I have zero expectation that anyone would
agree with me even if I said water was wet, and I have every
expectation at least one person would claim offense over it.
Lately you.ve been taking offence at both silence and response. What are you >expecting? Nyikos does what he does, much of which is easily ignorable. For the record,
water was wet the last I looked.
On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 14:43:45 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by erik simpson
<[email protected]>:
On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 1:35:06?PM UTC-7, jillery wrote:
On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 08:40:58 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> continues to post his irrelevant and
repetitive comments aka spam:
On the off chance that you are reading this, Bob, I'd like to call your attentionThe above is a good example of PeeWee Peter's shit-stirring. As for
to this little bit in my reply to jillery on this thread this morning. >> >
____________________________ repost begins ________________
All of which are consistent with my expressed meaning, of comments
which are repetitive and irrelevant.
Perhaps we should put it to a vote of the people here as to whether they >> >go along with your opinion of Casanova's usage of "Killfiles are your friend' as being "spam."
Some might even agree with Casanova so vigorously that they might post, >> >"I am Casanova" in analogy with "I am Spartacus" and more recently, "I am Charlie Hebdo."
============================ repost ends=====================
putting anything to a vote, I have zero expectation that anyone would
agree with me even if I said water was wet, and I have every
expectation at least one person would claim offense over it.
Lately you.ve been taking offence at both silence and response. What are you
expecting? Nyikos does what he does, much of which is easily ignorable. For the record,
water was wet the last I looked.
Jillery's characterization of "shit-stirring" was exactly on
target, which is why Peter the Grate has a permanent paid
lease in my killfile. And FWIW, my definition of spam in the
Usenet venue, as in email, includes neither potted meat (the
actual original) nor suggestions related to stated specific
problems.
--
Bob C.
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries, is not
'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'"
- Isaac Asimov
On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 5:35:06?PM UTC-7, Bob Casanova wrote:
On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 14:43:45 -0700 (PDT), the followingI confess to a morbid curiousity about why he recruited Verhaegen and his "amplifier" JTEM.
appeared in talk.origins, posted by erik simpson
<[email protected]>:
On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 1:35:06?PM UTC-7, jillery wrote:Jillery's characterization of "shit-stirring" was exactly on
On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 08:40:58 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> continues to post his irrelevant and
repetitive comments aka spam:
On the off chance that you are reading this, Bob, I'd like to call your attentionThe above is a good example of PeeWee Peter's shit-stirring. As for
to this little bit in my reply to jillery on this thread this morning. >> >> >
____________________________ repost begins ________________
All of which are consistent with my expressed meaning, of comments
which are repetitive and irrelevant.
Perhaps we should put it to a vote of the people here as to whether they >> >> >go along with your opinion of Casanova's usage of "Killfiles are your friend' as being "spam."
Some might even agree with Casanova so vigorously that they might post, >> >> >"I am Casanova" in analogy with "I am Spartacus" and more recently, "I am Charlie Hebdo."
============================ repost ends=====================
putting anything to a vote, I have zero expectation that anyone would
agree with me even if I said water was wet, and I have every
expectation at least one person would claim offense over it.
Lately you.ve been taking offence at both silence and response. What are you
expecting? Nyikos does what he does, much of which is easily ignorable. For the record,
water was wet the last I looked.
target, which is why Peter the Grate has a permanent paid
lease in my killfile. And FWIW, my definition of spam in the
Usenet venue, as in email, includes neither potted meat (the
actual original) nor suggestions related to stated specific
problems.
Very strange.
On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 1:35:06?PM UTC-7, jillery wrote:
On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 08:40:58 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> continues to post his irrelevant and
repetitive comments aka spam:
On the off chance that you are reading this, Bob, I'd like to call your attentionThe above is a good example of PeeWee Peter's shit-stirring. As for
to this little bit in my reply to jillery on this thread this morning.
____________________________ repost begins ________________
All of which are consistent with my expressed meaning, of comments
which are repetitive and irrelevant.
Perhaps we should put it to a vote of the people here as to whether they >> >go along with your opinion of Casanova's usage of "Killfiles are your friend' as being "spam."
Some might even agree with Casanova so vigorously that they might post,
"I am Casanova" in analogy with "I am Spartacus" and more recently, "I am Charlie Hebdo."
============================ repost ends=====================
putting anything to a vote, I have zero expectation that anyone would
agree with me even if I said water was wet, and I have every
expectation at least one person would claim offense over it.
Lately you.ve been taking offence at both silence and response. What are you >expecting? Nyikos does what he does, much of which is easily ignorable. For the record,
water was wet the last I looked.
I confess to a morbid curiousity about why he recruited Verhaegen and his "amplifier" JTEM.
See my book "De evolutie van de mens" Acad.Uitg. Eburon 2022 Utrecht NL, or google
- "aquarboreal",
- "coastal dispersal Pleistocene Homo"
- "GondwanaTalks Verhaegen English".
Very strange.
On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 1:35:06 PM UTC-7, jillery wrote:
On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 08:40:58 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> continues to post his irrelevant and
repetitive comments aka spam:
On the off chance that you are reading this, Bob, I'd like to call your attentionThe above is a good example of PeeWee Peter's shit-stirring. As for
to this little bit in my reply to jillery on this thread this morning.
____________________________ repost begins ________________
All of which are consistent with my expressed meaning, of comments
which are repetitive and irrelevant.
Perhaps we should put it to a vote of the people here as to whether they >>> go along with your opinion of Casanova's usage of "Killfiles are your friend' as being "spam."
Some might even agree with Casanova so vigorously that they might post,
"I am Casanova" in analogy with "I am Spartacus" and more recently, "I am Charlie Hebdo."
============================ repost ends=====================
putting anything to a vote, I have zero expectation that anyone would
agree with me even if I said water was wet, and I have every
expectation at least one person would claim offense over it.
--
You're entitled to your own opinions.
You're not entitled to your own facts.
Lately you.ve been taking offence at both silence and response. What are you expecting? Nyikos does what he does, much of which is easily ignorable. For the record,
water was wet the last I looked.
On 2023-03-30 4:43 PM, erik simpson wrote:
On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 1:35:06?PM UTC-7, jillery wrote:
On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 08:40:58 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> continues to post his irrelevant and
repetitive comments aka spam:
On the off chance that you are reading this, Bob, I'd like to call your attentionThe above is a good example of PeeWee Peter's shit-stirring. As for
to this little bit in my reply to jillery on this thread this morning. >>>>
____________________________ repost begins ________________
All of which are consistent with my expressed meaning, of comments
which are repetitive and irrelevant.
Perhaps we should put it to a vote of the people here as to whether they >>>> go along with your opinion of Casanova's usage of "Killfiles are your friend' as being "spam."
Some might even agree with Casanova so vigorously that they might post, >>>> "I am Casanova" in analogy with "I am Spartacus" and more recently, "I am Charlie Hebdo."
============================ repost ends=====================
putting anything to a vote, I have zero expectation that anyone would
agree with me even if I said water was wet, and I have every
expectation at least one person would claim offense over it.
Lately you.ve been taking offence at both silence and response. What are you
expecting? Nyikos does what he does, much of which is easily ignorable. For the record,
water was wet the last I looked.
Well, in it's liquid phase, yes.
On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 10:30:06 PM UTC-4, erik simpson wrote:
I confess to a morbid curiousity about why he recruited Verhaegen and his "amplifier" JTEM.
No recruitment ever took place. I was so starved for scientific discussion (due to not being
able to get ANY of it on even a fascinating topic like the ice ages), that I turned to what looked
like it on sci.bio.paleontology. I recognized Marc's name from my occasional forays into
sci.anthropology.paleo, and I managed to get the kind of raw material from his responses to me that I
could use to increase my scientific knowledge of hominids.
Surprisingly, JTEM was interested enough in our discussion that he dropped his usual habit of
insulting people, and also gave me information about DHA that I had only heard from ads up to then.
The information included several links to popular science articles and research articles, and I chased
down some references myself using their links. All in s.b.p. and s.a.p. After this pleasant beginning, I was taken aback when Marc started one thread after another in talk.origins.
I could see he was spreading himself way too thin.
I welcomed him to t.o. on the first of these threads,
but I also cautioned him in various ways, ending that post with:
___________________________ excerpt from reply to Marc _____________________________________
See my book "De evolutie van de mens" Acad.Uitg. Eburon 2022 Utrecht NL, or google
- "aquarboreal",
Doesn't help much. You need to overcome the language barrier. I can read German,
but Dutch is "like Greek to me." Cognates are difficult to guess.
- "coastal dispersal Pleistocene Homo"
- "GondwanaTalks Verhaegen English".
Don't expect the regulars here to wade through this. Post your evidence here, and
pray that some of them take the trouble to read what you serve up to them
on a silver platter. You aren't even using a leaden platter here.
=========================end of excerpt
from
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/rhfDrMrD2mc/m/NVUqGFPxAAAJ
Re: Can a whole science be so wrong??
As you saw on the thread, "human plantigrady," he took no heed of that advice,
nor of the following hint on another t.o. thread:
____________________________________________________
Are you familiar with the line, "We are not in Kansas anymore, Toto."?
You are not in sci.anthropology.paleo or sci.bio.paleontology anymore, Marc. ===============================================================
Very strange.
The truth is stranger than your assumption.
Peter Nyikos
Fact is, one does not have to publicly renounce one's Catholic affiliation >to be an apostate. In fact, the worst kind of apostasy is to privately >conclude that the Catholic religion is bullshit, while also asserting that >one is a Catholic. It was such people that the Spanish Inquisition targeted, >not people who admitted to a different religion (usually either Judaism or Islam) publicly.
And there is plenty of reason to think that you have no use for Jesus's >commandment against bearing false witness. And next week, I will go
through a lot of what you've posted to demonstrate your cavalier attitude >towards that commandment.
Fact is, one does not have to publicly renounce one's Catholic affiliation >to be an apostate. In fact, the worst kind of apostasy is to privately >conclude that the Catholic religion is bullshit, while also asserting that >one is a Catholic. It was such people that the Spanish Inquisition targeted, >not people who admitted to a different religion (usually either Judaism or Islam) publicly.
And there is plenty of reason to think that you have no use for Jesus's >commandment against bearing false witness. And next week, I will go
through a lot of what you've posted to demonstrate your cavalier attitude >towards that commandment.
The last episode of the documentary series Frozen Planet II was just on
TV. They had how bad global warming is to the Arctic environment and
wild life. The ending claimed that we could change this and limit
global warming to an additional 1.5 degrees.
Species like penguins and polar bears are having a hard time, but it
should have been noted that things were worse during the last warm
period between glaciation. 130,000 years ago temperatures got warmer
than they are now and more ice melted. Sea levels rose to the levels
that they are claiming will be an issue. We know that the Indian Ocean
and Pacific islands that they worry about flooding did flood and
terrestrial life was wiped out on those low lying islands.
It seems that what we should be working on is determining how the ice
age species made it through that last environmental catastrophe that has
been occurring around every hundred thousand years for the last million years. The intervals between warm periods have been getting longer in
the last half million years, and life on earth hasn't been able to adapt
to that very effectively. Most of the ice age megafauna likely nearly
went extinct the last warm period, and even though their populations
came back, the populations were likely not healthy enough to survive
this warm period. No wolly rhino, mastodons, and mammoths exist
anywhere. The giant bears and saber toothed cats that fed on them
didn't make it. Species like polar bears and penguins may not survive
this warm period, and could go the way of the mammoth.
We likely need to figure out how these species survived the last warm
period that became worse than current conditions. More ice melted last
time and sea levels were as high as they are predicting for this warm period. In order to maintain viable populations we need to make those regions that allowed the survival of ice age species available to these animals. More of their habitat was lost last warm period, but the
existing arctic species found somewhere to survive. We need to figure
out what those survival places were and make them available to the
species that need them.
For the penguin example, it is obvious that the last warm period the
Adele penguins had to find some place else to nest. Finding where that
was and relocating animals is likely the best way to get a large enough population through this warm period.
The issue with man made global warming is the prediction that was put
out a few years ago that we might skip the next glacial period and the
warm period might last a hundred thousand years longer than usual.
The warm period is not the normal environment for temperate latitudes.
For the last million years most of the time the temperate latitudes have
had an arctic alpine environment. Arctic species are adapted to what usually exists. The current environment has them limited to the icy
regions of the world, and their environment has been rollercoasting for
the last couple million years.
Ron Okimoto
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