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  • Cecily Baskerville Steward

    From Paulo Ricardo Canedo@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 16 04:18:49 2021
    Oliver Cromwell was descended from Nicholas Steward and Cecily Baskerville. As https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Baskerville-13 says, the Visitation of Norfolk makes her daughter of an unspecified John Baskerville. However, Wikitree also makes her daughter
    of John Baskerville and Eleanor Wolcott. That John Baskerville had several royal descents. Is there any evidence for this identification?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to Paulo Ricardo Canedo on Sat Oct 16 10:05:59 2021
    On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 4:18:51 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    Oliver Cromwell was descended from Nicholas Steward and Cecily Baskerville. As https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Baskerville-13 says, the Visitation of Norfolk makes her daughter of an unspecified John Baskerville. However, Wikitree also makes her daughter
    of John Baskerville and Eleanor Wolcott. That John Baskerville had several royal descents. Is there any evidence for this identification?

    Wikitree as usual puts the cart on top of the horse, not even before it.

    The first steps to fix this mish-mash is to prove that Oliver Cromwell's mother's name was Steward, and that *her* father's name was William and who his wife was and who his parents were.

    It's a house of cards.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Oct 16 11:38:09 2021
    On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 11:24:31 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
    On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 10:06:00 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
    On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 4:18:51 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    Oliver Cromwell was descended from Nicholas Steward and Cecily Baskerville. As https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Baskerville-13 says, the Visitation of Norfolk makes her daughter of an unspecified John Baskerville. However, Wikitree also makes her
    daughter of John Baskerville and Eleanor Wolcott. That John Baskerville had several royal descents. Is there any evidence for this identification?
    Wikitree as usual puts the cart on top of the horse, not even before it.

    The first steps to fix this mish-mash is to prove that Oliver Cromwell's mother's name was Steward, and that *her* father's name was William and who his wife was and who his parents were.

    It's a house of cards.
    With respect to the Steward family, did you check out the article cited in source 4 in the Wikitree pedigree?

    I think the main issue, isn't necessarily that there is an MS which *states* it, but as you yourself pointed out in another thread, these MS can be creations to aggrandize their owners, *even* in the early modern period. They don't have to be 19th
    fabrications. Genealogists were fabricating in the 17th century as well.

    The article by Rye which focuses on disproving the Steward royal claims, doesn't say much too much about the real line to Nicholas of the Temple, except that such a person existed. And other than the blank claims of the wifes from the MS, the author
    doesn't purport to support those at all. Just states them.

    So we are still in need of a credible source for the name of the wife of William Steward buried at Ely Cathedral in 1593

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Higgins@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Oct 16 11:24:29 2021
    On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 10:06:00 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
    On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 4:18:51 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    Oliver Cromwell was descended from Nicholas Steward and Cecily Baskerville. As https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Baskerville-13 says, the Visitation of Norfolk makes her daughter of an unspecified John Baskerville. However, Wikitree also makes her
    daughter of John Baskerville and Eleanor Wolcott. That John Baskerville had several royal descents. Is there any evidence for this identification?
    Wikitree as usual puts the cart on top of the horse, not even before it.

    The first steps to fix this mish-mash is to prove that Oliver Cromwell's mother's name was Steward, and that *her* father's name was William and who his wife was and who his parents were.

    It's a house of cards.
    With respect to the Steward family, did you check out the article cited in source 4 in the Wikitree pedigree?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From taf@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Oct 16 11:47:53 2021
    On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 11:38:10 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
    The article by Rye which focuses on disproving the Steward royal claims, doesn't say
    much too much about the real line to Nicholas of the Temple, except that such a person
    existed. And other than the blank claims of the wifes from the MS, the author doesn't
    purport to support those at all. Just states them.

    In the first sentence he refers to an article he had published int he previous volume:

    https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112047090714&view=1up&seq=170&skin=2021

    though it is more in lines of reproducing an unpublished pedigree rather than evaluating it.

    taf

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Higgins@21:1/5 to Paulo Ricardo Canedo on Sat Oct 16 11:50:52 2021
    On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 4:18:51 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    Oliver Cromwell was descended from Nicholas Steward and Cecily Baskerville. As https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Baskerville-13 says, the Visitation of Norfolk makes her daughter of an unspecified John Baskerville. However, Wikitree also makes her daughter
    of John Baskerville and Eleanor Wolcott. That John Baskerville had several royal descents. Is there any evidence for this identification?

    Did you check out the sources listed in the Wikitree pedigree for Cecily's parents?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Oct 16 12:24:02 2021
    On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 11:50:53 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
    On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 4:18:51 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    Oliver Cromwell was descended from Nicholas Steward and Cecily Baskerville. As https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Baskerville-13 says, the Visitation of Norfolk makes her daughter of an unspecified John Baskerville. However, Wikitree also makes her
    daughter of John Baskerville and Eleanor Wolcott. That John Baskerville had several royal descents. Is there any evidence for this identification?
    Did you check out the sources listed in the Wikitree pedigree for Cecily's parents?


    The MS evidently states that she was the "heiress" of some unspecified Baskerville (not a John in particular)
    That seems odd to me if her parents were anyone of note at all.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paulo Ricardo Canedo@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 16 13:42:59 2021
    A sábado, 16 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 19:50:53 UTC+1, [email protected] escreveu:
    On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 4:18:51 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    Oliver Cromwell was descended from Nicholas Steward and Cecily Baskerville. As https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Baskerville-13 says, the Visitation of Norfolk makes her daughter of an unspecified John Baskerville. However, Wikitree also makes her
    daughter of John Baskerville and Eleanor Wolcott. That John Baskerville had several royal descents. Is there any evidence for this identification?
    Did you check out the sources listed in the Wikitree pedigree for Cecily's parents?

    I just did and the Visitation does make Cecily daughter of a John Baskerville. I doubt it's the same as the husband of Eleanor Wolcott, though, as Norfolk is far from Hertfordshire.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paulo Ricardo Canedo@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 16 14:35:16 2021
    A sábado, 16 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 22:23:42 UTC+1, [email protected] escreveu:
    On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 1:43:00 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    A sábado, 16 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 19:50:53 UTC+1, [email protected] escreveu:
    On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 4:18:51 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    Oliver Cromwell was descended from Nicholas Steward and Cecily Baskerville. As https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Baskerville-13 says, the Visitation of Norfolk makes her daughter of an unspecified John Baskerville. However, Wikitree also makes her
    daughter of John Baskerville and Eleanor Wolcott. That John Baskerville had several royal descents. Is there any evidence for this identification?
    Did you check out the sources listed in the Wikitree pedigree for Cecily's parents?
    I just did and the Visitation does make Cecily daughter of a John Baskerville. I doubt it's the same as the husband of Eleanor Wolcott, though, as Norfolk is far from Hertfordshire.
    Would you post a link to the Visitation itself?
    https://archive.org/details/visitacionievisi32ryew/page/268/mode/2up

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From taf@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Oct 16 14:59:00 2021
    On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 2:39:19 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:

    If you look here at the Vis Camb we have a problem

    https://archive.org/details/visitationcambr00britgoog/page/n24/mode/1up?q=Steward

    This Vis appears to clearly state that Cicely Baskerville was a later wife, not the mother of
    any of these children here listed.

    How so? It certainly doesn't clearly state this as it only gives Nicholas one wife. If you are implying this from where the equal sign is located, I think this was just an editorial quirk in displaying the sole listed marriage and not intending some
    additional mystery-marriage. There is a similar placement of the equal sign in each of the previous generations up the pedigree.

    taf

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to Paulo Ricardo Canedo on Sat Oct 16 14:23:40 2021
    On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 1:43:00 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    A sábado, 16 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 19:50:53 UTC+1, [email protected] escreveu:
    On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 4:18:51 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    Oliver Cromwell was descended from Nicholas Steward and Cecily Baskerville. As https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Baskerville-13 says, the Visitation of Norfolk makes her daughter of an unspecified John Baskerville. However, Wikitree also makes her
    daughter of John Baskerville and Eleanor Wolcott. That John Baskerville had several royal descents. Is there any evidence for this identification?
    Did you check out the sources listed in the Wikitree pedigree for Cecily's parents?
    I just did and the Visitation does make Cecily daughter of a John Baskerville. I doubt it's the same as the husband of Eleanor Wolcott, though, as Norfolk is far from Hertfordshire.

    Would you post a link to the Visitation itself?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to Paulo Ricardo Canedo on Sat Oct 16 14:39:17 2021
    On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 2:35:17 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    A sábado, 16 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 22:23:42 UTC+1, [email protected] escreveu:
    On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 1:43:00 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    A sábado, 16 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 19:50:53 UTC+1, [email protected] escreveu:
    On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 4:18:51 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    Oliver Cromwell was descended from Nicholas Steward and Cecily Baskerville. As https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Baskerville-13 says, the Visitation of Norfolk makes her daughter of an unspecified John Baskerville. However, Wikitree also makes her
    daughter of John Baskerville and Eleanor Wolcott. That John Baskerville had several royal descents. Is there any evidence for this identification?
    Did you check out the sources listed in the Wikitree pedigree for Cecily's parents?
    I just did and the Visitation does make Cecily daughter of a John Baskerville. I doubt it's the same as the husband of Eleanor Wolcott, though, as Norfolk is far from Hertfordshire.
    Would you post a link to the Visitation itself?
    https://archive.org/details/visitacionievisi32ryew/page/268/mode/2up

    If you look here at the Vis Camb we have a problem

    https://archive.org/details/visitationcambr00britgoog/page/n24/mode/1up?q=Steward

    This Vis appears to clearly state that Cicely Baskerville was a later wife, not the mother of any of these children here listed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Higgins@21:1/5 to Paulo Ricardo Canedo on Sat Oct 16 20:23:24 2021
    On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 1:43:00 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    A sábado, 16 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 19:50:53 UTC+1, [email protected] escreveu:
    On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 4:18:51 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    Oliver Cromwell was descended from Nicholas Steward and Cecily Baskerville. As https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Baskerville-13 says, the Visitation of Norfolk makes her daughter of an unspecified John Baskerville. However, Wikitree also makes her
    daughter of John Baskerville and Eleanor Wolcott. That John Baskerville had several royal descents. Is there any evidence for this identification?
    Did you check out the sources listed in the Wikitree pedigree for Cecily's parents?
    I just did and the Visitation does make Cecily daughter of a John Baskerville. I doubt it's the same as the husband of Eleanor Wolcott, though, as Norfolk is far from Hertfordshire.

    So... you looked at ONE source only, out of the many that are listed? You should check out the sources for Eleanor "Wolcott". All three of the sources given for her say that her surname was Holcott, not Wolcott. And none of those sources give the
    couple a daughter Cecily. Does that give you cause to have some doubt about the Wikitree pedigree's identification of the supposed parents of Cecily?

    John was a pretty common name in the Baskerville family. It looks to me like someone just guessed as to which John was her father - and guessed wrong.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paulo Ricardo Canedo@21:1/5 to All on Sun Oct 17 03:34:45 2021
    A domingo, 17 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 04:23:26 UTC+1, [email protected] escreveu:
    On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 1:43:00 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    A sábado, 16 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 19:50:53 UTC+1, [email protected] escreveu:
    On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 4:18:51 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    Oliver Cromwell was descended from Nicholas Steward and Cecily Baskerville. As https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Baskerville-13 says, the Visitation of Norfolk makes her daughter of an unspecified John Baskerville. However, Wikitree also makes her
    daughter of John Baskerville and Eleanor Wolcott. That John Baskerville had several royal descents. Is there any evidence for this identification?
    Did you check out the sources listed in the Wikitree pedigree for Cecily's parents?
    I just did and the Visitation does make Cecily daughter of a John Baskerville. I doubt it's the same as the husband of Eleanor Wolcott, though, as Norfolk is far from Hertfordshire.
    So... you looked at ONE source only, out of the many that are listed? You should check out the sources for Eleanor "Wolcott". All three of the sources given for her say that her surname was Holcott, not Wolcott. And none of those sources give the
    couple a daughter Cecily. Does that give you cause to have some doubt about the Wikitree pedigree's identification of the supposed parents of Cecily?

    John was a pretty common name in the Baskerville family. It looks to me like someone just guessed as to which John was her father - and guessed wrong.
    Sorry. I thought you were refering to Cecily's profile. As I said, I already doubted the identification simply because Norfolk is far from Hertfordshire. Was there any Baskerville family in Norfolk or a neighboring county?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From taf@21:1/5 to Paulo Ricardo Canedo on Sun Oct 17 05:55:42 2021
    On Sunday, October 17, 2021 at 3:34:47 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

    Sorry. I thought you were refering to Cecily's profile. As I said, I already doubted the identification simply because Norfolk is far from Hertfordshire. Was there any Baskerville family in Norfolk or a neighboring county?

    There was a Nicholas Baskerville in Norwich mid-century, who appears in PCC probate registers per TNA catalogue.

    taf

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ian Goddard@21:1/5 to Paulo Ricardo Canedo on Sun Oct 17 16:11:37 2021
    On 17/10/2021 11:34, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    simply because Norfolk is far from Hertfordshire
    They're not adjacent, Cambridgeshire is in between them, but not very
    far apart. Were you thinking of Herefordshire?

    Ian

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paulo Ricardo Canedo@21:1/5 to All on Sun Oct 17 08:20:12 2021
    A domingo, 17 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 16:10:49 UTC+1, Ian Goddard escreveu:
    On 17/10/2021 11:34, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
    simply because Norfolk is far from Hertfordshire
    They're not adjacent, Cambridgeshire is in between them, but not very
    far apart. Were you thinking of Herefordshire?

    Ian
    I actually meant Herefordshire but miswrote.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)