1. Forum
  2. Usenet
  3. SOC.GENEALOGY.MEDIEVAL

  • What do (Names) mean in genealogy tables from Settipani's books?

    From Jesse S Northen@21:1/5 to All on Mon May 16 13:34:02 2022
    I'm very interesting in the hypotheses Christian Settipani puts forth in books like "Les Ancestres de Charlemagne." I don't read French but I can take pictures to translate a lot, and the charts do not require much knowledge of French. However, he has
    many names in parenthesis, for example:

    "(ANICIA) ---> Turrania Anicia Iuliana."

    I can't seem to find an explanation for what that means. My thought was that the only known info is that there is a daughter, and the name in parenthesis is used to mean "daughter of Anicia" but I'm unsure and would love someone to shed light on this!

    Thanks

    Jesse

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Stewart@21:1/5 to Jesse S Northen on Tue May 17 08:13:39 2022
    On 17-May-22 6:34 AM, Jesse S Northen wrote:
    I'm very interesting in the hypotheses Christian Settipani puts forth in books like "Les Ancestres de Charlemagne." I don't read French but I can take pictures to translate a lot, and the charts do not require much knowledge of French. However, he has
    many names in parenthesis, for example:

    "(ANICIA) ---> Turrania Anicia Iuliana."

    I can't seem to find an explanation for what that means. My thought was that the only known info is that there is a daughter, and the name in parenthesis is used to mean "daughter of Anicia" but I'm unsure and would love someone to shed light on this!

    If you give an example without a page reference it's impossible to know
    whether the formatting is Settipani's or your own.

    The only reference to Turrania Anicia Iuliana in the index to _Les
    ancêtres de Charlemagne_ (second edition, 2014) is for a table on p.
    293, where she is not shown as represented in your post.

    In any case, Anicia is not a personal name but a family 'nomen',
    practically the ancient Roman equivalent to a medieval or modern surname.

    Peter Stewart

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    https://www.avg.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to Willem Nabuurs on Tue May 17 07:06:39 2022
    On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 3:51:46 PM UTC+2, Willem Nabuurs wrote:
    On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 10:34:04 PM UTC+2, Jesse S Northen wrote:
    I'm very interesting in the hypotheses Christian Settipani puts forth in books like "Les Ancestres de Charlemagne." I don't read French but I can take pictures to translate a lot, and the charts do not require much knowledge of French. However, he
    has many names in parenthesis, for example:

    "(ANICIA) ---> Turrania Anicia Iuliana."

    I can't seem to find an explanation for what that means. My thought was that the only known info is that there is a daughter, and the name in parenthesis is used to mean "daughter of Anicia" but I'm unsure and would love someone to shed light on this!


    Thanks

    Jesse
    The fact that the name was put between brackets generally means that Settipani did not find a documented name for this person and assumes the person must have had the name that he put between brackets. You will see this practised by other authors as
    well, not only with brackets but also with square brackets. The brackets for me indicate to be very careful, because it is an assumption and not a documented fact.

    In this particular case, as Peter already stated, "Anicia" should be seen as the Roman variant of a surname: Anicia was used for all women of the Roman "gens" Anicius.

    If you look at the table on page 292, you see for example 3 generations of (M. Ceionius). This should be read as: Marcus Ceionius Varus, Roman praefectus in 271, in Settipani's opinion was a second great-grandson of Marcus Ceionius Silvanus, Roman
    consul in 156, and the only thing that can be assumed of the 3 generations between these two persons is that their name probably will have been Marcus Ceionius (Ceionius for sure because it was the name of the gens, Marcus probably because the Roman
    patricians had the habit of giving their eldest son the same first name as they had themselves), possibly followed by one or more additional names which are not known.

    Willem Nabuurs

    BTW If you can read French and want to read more about the subject, check pages 345-432 of Settipani's book Continuite gentilice et continuite familiale dans les familles senatoriales romaines a l'epoque imperiale (2000), because that chapter deals with
    the gens of the Anicii. The tables on page 292-293 in the Charlemagne book give a quick summary of the theory that Settipani put forward in this chapter of the Continuite book. So if you want th know Settipani's arguments for why he is putting the names
    in the table like that you have to check the other book

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to Jesse S Northen on Tue May 17 06:51:44 2022
    On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 10:34:04 PM UTC+2, Jesse S Northen wrote:
    I'm very interesting in the hypotheses Christian Settipani puts forth in books like "Les Ancestres de Charlemagne." I don't read French but I can take pictures to translate a lot, and the charts do not require much knowledge of French. However, he has
    many names in parenthesis, for example:

    "(ANICIA) ---> Turrania Anicia Iuliana."

    I can't seem to find an explanation for what that means. My thought was that the only known info is that there is a daughter, and the name in parenthesis is used to mean "daughter of Anicia" but I'm unsure and would love someone to shed light on this!

    Thanks

    Jesse

    The fact that the name was put between brackets generally means that Settipani did not find a documented name for this person and assumes the person must have had the name that he put between brackets. You will see this practised by other authors as well,
    not only with brackets but also with square brackets. The brackets for me indicate to be very careful, because it is an assumption and not a documented fact.

    In this particular case, as Peter already stated, "Anicia" should be seen as the Roman variant of a surname: Anicia was used for all women of the Roman "gens" Anicius.

    If you look at the table on page 292, you see for example 3 generations of (M. Ceionius). This should be read as: Marcus Ceionius Varus, Roman praefectus in 271, in Settipani's opinion was a second great-grandson of Marcus Ceionius Silvanus, Roman consul
    in 156, and the only thing that can be assumed of the 3 generations between these two persons is that their name probably will have been Marcus Ceionius (Ceionius for sure because it was the name of the gens, Marcus probably because the Roman patricians
    had the habit of giving their eldest son the same first name as they had themselves), possibly followed by one or more additional names which are not known.

    Willem Nabuurs

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Enno Borgsteede@21:1/5 to All on Tue May 17 15:25:57 2022
    This one's for Jesse:

    Did you do a Google search on her name? I did that, and found her on Geni

    https://www.geni.com/people/Turrania-Anicia-Juliana/6000000003645877313

    and on an Italian wikipedia page:

    https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turrania_Anicia_Giuliana

    There is no English wikipedia page for her, so you'll have to work with this one, unless you can read Portuguese, or Bulgarian.

    There are many other results on Google worth reading, so I only present these as a starting point.

    Regards,

    Enno

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)