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  • Re: Richard Puleston and Warenne

    From Vanessa Weber@21:1/5 to taf on Sat Dec 11 05:52:59 2021
    Hi Todd and everyone on this thread.

    OnFriday, 25 June 2021 at 01:47:05 UTC+2, taf wrote:
    6. Griffin de Warenne, b. say 1339, m. bef. 1356, Elizabeth
    7. (probably by Elizabeth) Griffin Wareyn, b. ca. 1359 (there are reports that a Griffin 1405, but I can't find the source, and can't be certain if it was father or son)

    I found a Calendar of Inquisiton record to back up a birth date of 1359, for the 2nd Griffin:

    Excerpt from Calendars of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Henry IV, vol 1
    Proof of age of Robert son and heir of Margaret Corbet, 18 March 1405
    Griffin Wareyn, 46, had a son of the same age. (testifying that Robert was born 8 Dec. 1383)

    - Link for full record: https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol18/pp376-398

    And thanks for the wonderful research, that helps us so much.
    - Cheers, Vanessa Weber

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  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 11 08:01:10 2021
    The 1359 birth year would be for that Griffin who married Margaret Corbet ?

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  • From taf@21:1/5 to Vanessa Weber on Sat Dec 11 07:26:15 2021
    On Saturday, December 11, 2021 at 5:53:00 AM UTC-8, Vanessa Weber wrote:
    Hi Todd and everyone on this thread.
    OnFriday, 25 June 2021 at 01:47:05 UTC+2, taf wrote:
    6. Griffin de Warenne, b. say 1339, m. bef. 1356, Elizabeth
    7. (probably by Elizabeth) Griffin Wareyn, b. ca. 1359 (there are reports that a Griffin 1405, but I can't find the source, and can't be certain if it was father or son)
    I found a Calendar of Inquisiton record to back up a birth date of 1359, for the 2nd Griffin:


    Ah. I had the ipm, indeed, it was the starting point for that whole reevaluating the line, I just didn't put two and two together that it was the basis for the 1405 date I had seen elsewhere without source.

    taf

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  • From taf@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Dec 11 08:33:55 2021
    On Saturday, December 11, 2021 at 8:01:12 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:
    The 1359 birth year would be for that Griffin who married Margaret Corbet ?

    The only record I have found for this marriage is the visitation, and this is too many generation back for its accuracy to be taken for granted, so I can't even be certain that any Griffin married Margaret Corbet. That said, it does show the husband of
    Margaret Corbet as Griffin, son of Griffin, and father of the John who married the Cheney heiress, so the Griffin born in 1359 would appear to be the man intended, and further, this is the Griffin, aged 46 in 1405, who particulated in the proof of age
    for Robert Corbet, son of Margaret Corbet (widow of Robert), so there was a social connection between the families in this generation. However, the Corbet branch in question, those of Moreton Corbet, never used the name name given Griffin's father-in-law
    in the visitation, Peter, a name largely restricted to Corbet of Caus and the related Corbet of Leigh.

    taf

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  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 11 11:28:50 2021
    Would you say that since Griffith (the elder) in 1356 is settling lands upon his *grandson* that the intervening John was already then dead ?

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  • From taf@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Dec 11 12:55:49 2021
    On Saturday, December 11, 2021 at 11:28:51 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:
    Would you say that since Griffith (the elder) in 1356 is settling lands upon his *grandson* that the intervening John was already then dead ?

    That was the tentative conclusion I reached, though there are other possible explanations.

    I have seen later wills where a ne'er-do-well son (or a daughter with an unworthy husband) was written out of a will, with their share to be held in trust then given directly to grandchildren when they reached majority, so this may have been the medieval
    version of that. Likewise, this has the smell of a marriage settlement, and I have seen some of these where a parent settled land on the groom and his new bride, stipulating that the grantees would then enfeof the property back to the grantor for life.
    Thus this may simply have been the cost of arranging a marriage into a much more prominent family, done with the full consent of a living father.

    taf

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