• The mainstream Rabbis (followers of Hillel): end of their power?

    From Jos Boersema@21:1/5 to All on Wed Nov 29 08:41:45 2023
    It seems clear by now that the Rabbis of Israel (mainstream Rabbis, who
    are all who follow the traitor Hillel the Elder and his "prosbul") are
    not going to come back to the Torah and do Justice for their people,
    and perhaps create the final Redemption. They have refused.

    Future generations will marvel at the obstinacy, the dishonesty, the disloyalty, and the audacity of the choices of the modern Rabbis of
    Israel, and they might think of these Rabbis as being worse than they
    perhaps are. The failure of the Rabbis to come back to the Torah is
    some sort of combination of character failings, which can be different
    in each case and even day by day for each specific person. In broad
    terms, it is likely a combination of: fear of being a social outcast by standing for the truth (a failure to be like Abraham and Moshe Rabbeinu,
    some of the Prophets who needed to deal with a lying and bad population,
    etc), emptyness / shallowness / dishonesty of mind, an emotion driven
    mind not impressed or interested in sensible logical thought,
    obstinacy and the force of indoctrination (idolatry to Sages, even
    following bad Sages for the right reasons, for the good they did or said,
    and then getting infected by the the bad these Sages have also done
    and/or said), and the pressure of money applied by the rich who want the
    Torah broken so they can safeguard their wealth, or in other words:
    bribery, a failure to stand with the truth even if it seems to cost you
    money, greed perhaps in that sense, a misplaced need for livelihood at
    the cost of the Torah, and perhaps last but not least: ignorance and destractions, a certain lack of dedication or a more or less accidental
    case of not having focussed enough yet on the broken parts of the Torah
    because someone was busy with other parts.

    However the causes, the result is: the Rabbis are wrong *again* on the
    Torah and the final Redemption. In this time when you can barely avoid
    hearing the Rabbis talk of how their "moshiach" is "around the corner"
    or literally "already here" (where? nobody to be seen), they somehow
    fail to find their "moshiach" and come back to the Torah that way, or
    just do the latter at least already. We are now facing the outbreak of
    World War 3, and in terms of the Torah: the next round of punishment on
    world Jewry for having rejected their God and His Torah, 7 times worse
    than the Nazi holocaust. Still this isn't enough to make them interested
    in the Torah. They think they already are doing the Torah and spreading
    it, but it has big problems. They broke it on certain elements, even
    going as far as worshiping the Sun disk idol again (!). The idol is
    now being made in Yerushalayim (it seems), and they plan to put it on
    their 3rd Temple. They are doing the same as all the other religions:
    they think they are doing great, and the only problem is that people
    don't follow their lead. Their "moshiach" will fix that for them, and
    deliver humanity at their doorstep, to continue as they are but then
    with immense power over the world, and great standing.

    It doesn't seem to impress them that the Prophets are talking about
    them, when it says that the leaders of Israel are misleading Israel.
    They claim that this is politicians, not them of course. How could they
    make a mistake ? They seem unable to grasp the consept, and this is a
    little bit of a job deformity you can have if you are a teacher. A
    teacher is constantly teaching pupils, and this gives them the idea that
    they are always right, and they are always dealing with inferior thought
    which they need to correct. I once read that teachers are a choice in a
    Tyranny to be part of the machinery of the State, because they just
    execute blindly (arrogantly?). They don't think like "hmmm... what is
    the real logical truth in this case ..." but rather "does this conform
    to what I am supposed to behaviorally teach these children, or not; if
    not it is automatically a mistake". This job of teachers and also judges
    sets them up for a bit of an arrogant stance toward criticism.

    Like this: "Class ? Repeat after me: 2 + 2 = 5". Class repeats the same,
    and teacher is happy. He just wants to hear the same words back. If
    someone says "= 4", then he probably didn't hear it correctly, or he is
    stupid. How can he not repeat "2 + 2 = 5" ? If the matter is actually 5
    or 4, is no longer of interest, because "wiser people have resolved this problem already, and this is for the higher ups at higher education and positions of power to determine". With this mindset, things get stuck,
    and if things are wrong, they simply might not even notice. If they
    accept that a change is needed because "2 + 2 = 4", this opens up a big
    problem for their position, because the other teachers are now going to
    think the same about this teacher: can he not hear well, can he not even
    repeat what he is being told ?! They are likewise not going to think
    about the issue either.

    People don't usually like to do a lot of thinking. Personally I
    understand that, because real thinking isn't even any fun at all. It is
    hard work and you are probably going to be stuck at first, just stuck in
    the dark with no way out for the moment. You can read books all you
    want, but that is reading, not thinking. I suspect most people almost
    never think about anything in their lives, and possibly never do it at
    all, literally never think their entire lives about anything. Reading, repeating, or random musing about something and believing that this is thinking: absolutely yet. In as far as their minds are not being busy
    with their own social issues and emotions at least, which is probably
    almost all of the time.

    Animals have brains, do you think they worry and think about some detail
    and complex issue of the world, like why do we have seasons ? I doubt
    the animals can figure it out, although you can just see that the Sun is
    lower and that is essentially already the answer. To know that the Earth
    goes around the Sun though and all that: I don't think they can or do
    figure it out, since we humans also have had our troubles with it. They
    do have brains though, so what are those brains doing all day ? These
    brains are probably busy processing perceptions of the world, their body,
    what they need and want, where and how to get it, how they are feeling
    and all these things. It is the same with most if not all humans. Even
    simple things are not solved. The problem is: humans are in a state of
    flux, from basically being an animal hunter gatherer, to being a farmer
    with increasingly complex tool use. We cannot afford not to know a whole
    lot of things. We have to figure it out, and soon. We have to find the
    way to peace, and this is now an increasingly urgent matter of survival.

    Such are the reasons for the mess in the world, and also speficially in education. It can seem orderly, but if what is being taught is bad or
    even just seemingly wrong a little bit, the consequences can be
    disastrous for society at large. How can this problem be resolved ?
    Probably primarily by the usual system of action leading to benefit or detriment. Consequences of actions leading either to re-enforcing of
    having done something right, or needing to adjust differently because
    the result was bad.

    Nuclear World War 3 is a pain element in the world. Wars are
    increasingly pain elements to all sides. In earlier days, a few scuffles
    and angry words or threats may be enough for a small band to gain new resources, and therefor be worth the trouble. These days the violence
    has grown out to become full scale matches of annihilation, with both
    sides causing significant casualties and destruction to both sides.
    Nuclear world war and the accompanying Tyranny and the like, the
    possibilities of disruption of the economy, the supply chains, famine,
    is likely going to be another higher level of pain caused to all sides.
    Pain in general means mistake (I guess you can write a book about that,
    however in the most general and pure sense, pain is bad and happy is good).

    Are the Rabbis at least good enough to count as 'righteous' ?

    Modern Judaism has a concept called follower of Noah, which all people
    are supposed to be. The Rabbis of Israel are not following the Torah
    enough, and are therefore dismissable as Judges over the Torah law in
    legal cases, as well as being teachers in the same. Making a mistake or
    two is okay in my thinking, but this has gone on too long and it has
    gone too far. It seems to be proof of fundamental unreliability. The
    fact that nobody here even dares to debate these claims, also says
    enough. It's over. It is a corrupt system and will probably have to go
    away, like all the other religions and ideologies. Becoming guilty of
    not having prevented World War 3 and the second holocaust, might be
    enough for the remainder of Israel to get rid of this whole system of mainstream Rabbinical Judaism.

    Maybe the Rabbis themselves will be sick of it after all that is going
    to come. They said the "moshiach" was here, but instead what they got was
    the second holocaust and general depopulation. How do you deal with such
    a deception ? Perhaps some will entirely give up, but hopefully most or
    all of them will choose to finally return to the Torah, and do away with
    the prosbul (Hillel the Elder), heter iska (Rambam/Maimonides), failure
    to distribute the land, very weird laws allowing work on the evening
    following the 7th day (in their day counting, but it is all one day),
    and idolatry to the Sun, and perhaps other failings.

    The 7 laws of Noah are quite simple, Wikipedia reads:

    Not to worship idols.
    Not to curse God.
    Not to commit murder.
    Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
    Not to steal.
    Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.
    To establish courts of justice.

    Most of these are either followed entirely or partially by the Rabbis of
    Israel (I don't know what Kairites are doing, they are not mainstream
    modern Judaism). There are two which raise questions:

    Not to worship idols.
    Not to steal.

    While the so-called Lamp of Helena, a Sun disk idol worshiped by Israel
    not long before the Romans destroyed the 2nd Temple, is idolatry, it is
    another issue to say that the modern Rabbis still worship this idol. In general, it doesn't seam that they care or even know about this idol,
    while their words are quite clear that they define their God as the
    Creator of Everything (the God of Abraham, Moshe Rabbeinu, etc). On the
    other hand, I don't see them rebelling this idol, and I expect that once
    the 3rd Temple is put up, taht they will accept this idol being on
    there, because they seem to lack the courage to stand against what their perceived establishment is doing. Not one yet even had the courage to
    say when I complained about it, which is many time, that it is at least
    a suspect matter, etc (as far as I know).

    Prosbul and Heter iska raise issues with stealing, stealing from the
    poor. While it may not seem too serious because it is about loans, loan
    slavery has been a serious issue with humanity. Organized crime is
    always into loan sharking. The consequences can be more devastating
    than a simple theft of an item.

    There we have it then: the Rabbis can not be teachers of the Torah, they
    cannot be Judges, and even if they are still 'righteous of the Nations'
    in the sense of being like Noah, there are issues to look into. It isn't
    even clear if they can meet this standard, although they are close to
    it. Right now most Rabbis are probably not worshiping the Sun disk idol, although I expect that they will do it later if this thing is allowed to
    go on. They will probably make up excuses for themselves for why it is
    okay to have this idol on the Temple, and blablablabla like usual. Total nonsense arguments, and then obedience to it.

    They are also unlikely conducting loan sharking operations, or loan
    slavery operations, however they allow others to get into some of these
    bad behaviors and to hide their money away from the duting they have
    under the Torah. They become accomplices to a degree to these issues of
    failure to help the poor and possibly some loan thieving by the rich.
    The issue is probably not major, like they are some hardened organized
    crime unit (lol), but it is rubbing against it. They are too lenient.

    While they may not be breaking these 7 rules much, or are perhaps only
    guilty of allowing others to break these rules in a minor degree, it is worrying that the Rabbis of Israel are not completely clear and in
    the good on this relatively low standard of being like Noah, considering
    the wealth in law in the Torah they have a chance to follow, spread and
    keep.

    My final conclusion for this day (might change tomorrow ;-), just
    kidding), Rabbinical Judaism is going to have to go away in it's current
    form, for being guilty of breaking the Torah law and just making too
    many mistakes. If they don't want to bend back to the Torah, then maybe
    they will be broken down by the events they have partially caused, even
    if by not preventing them by showing a different example.

    I fear that there will be a great disillusion with the Torah, when the
    second holocaust is happening or has happened, because as written above:
    they expected Redemption and said "moshiach is here", but instead the
    Jewish people died like never before and all seems lost. It is very sad
    to think of all the Yeshivas which may be burning, children and people
    being murdered, Rabbis being murdered, while all these people may have
    done some wrongs, but in human terms it is another thing to condemn them
    to death for it. Nevertheless, reality can be harsh. Conseqences of a
    minor stumble with the feet, can be deadly at times. The world can
    definitely not go on as it is, and the Torah which the Rabbis are
    teaching is not going to be good enough for the future. If this is the stumbling block all of humanity is going to trip over, or if this is the helping hand they miss when they stumble (which is more accurate I
    suppose), then this seemingly small mistake is going to lead to an
    extreme catastrophe, and possibly even an ever lasting Tyranny on Earth
    (a high technological Tyrannical Dystopia - we don't know what it will
    all mean, and though 'forever' is exceedingly unlikely, the prospect of
    the modern capabilities in the wrong hands, which is where they are, is frightening).

    Then the words of Isaiah will come true: only a remnant will return. The
    others might be completely disillusioned, or dead. Hopefully though,
    when the truth breaks out finally, when a minimum of Jewish people cheer
    again for the Torah of Moshe Rabbeinu and are actually doing it,
    hopefully all will come back, and the people of Israel, the remainder
    who wanted to be good, who always really wanted to be good and that's
    all they wanted to do, will sing and dance, forever. Finally safe to be
    good, forever, as heaven has promised.

    (Lol, that's a lot of talk not saying much, but whatever; at least it
    had a little Torah topic in it I guess, sorry.)
    --
    Economic & political ideology, worked out into Constitutional models,
    with a multi-facetted implementation plan. http://market.socialism.nl

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jos Boersema@21:1/5 to All on Wed Nov 29 08:42:33 2023
    It seems clear by now that the Rabbis of Israel (mainstream Rabbis, who
    are all who follow the traitor Hillel the Elder and his "prosbul") are
    not going to come back to the Torah and do Justice for their people,
    and perhaps create the final Redemption. They have refused.

    Future generations will marvel at the obstinacy, the dishonesty, the disloyalty, and the audacity of the choices of the modern Rabbis of
    Israel, and they might think of these Rabbis as being worse than they
    perhaps are. The failure of the Rabbis to come back to the Torah is
    some sort of combination of character failings, which can be different
    in each case and even day by day for each specific person. In broad
    terms, it is likely a combination of: fear of being a social outcast by standing for the truth (a failure to be like Abraham and Moshe Rabbeinu,
    some of the Prophets who needed to deal with a lying and bad population,
    etc), emptyness / shallowness / dishonesty of mind, an emotion driven
    mind not impressed or interested in sensible logical thought,
    obstinacy and the force of indoctrination (idolatry to Sages, even
    following bad Sages for the right reasons, for the good they did or said,
    and then getting infected by the the bad these Sages have also done
    and/or said), and the pressure of money applied by the rich who want the
    Torah broken so they can safeguard their wealth, or in other words:
    bribery, a failure to stand with the truth even if it seems to cost you
    money, greed perhaps in that sense, a misplaced need for livelihood at
    the cost of the Torah, and perhaps last but not least: ignorance and destractions, a certain lack of dedication or a more or less accidental
    case of not having focussed enough yet on the broken parts of the Torah
    because someone was busy with other parts.

    However the causes, the result is: the Rabbis are wrong *again* on the
    Torah and the final Redemption. In this time when you can barely avoid
    hearing the Rabbis talk of how their "moshiach" is "around the corner"
    or literally "already here" (where? nobody to be seen), they somehow
    fail to find their "moshiach" and come back to the Torah that way, or
    just do the latter at least already. We are now facing the outbreak of
    World War 3, and in terms of the Torah: the next round of punishment on
    world Jewry for having rejected their God and His Torah, 7 times worse
    than the Nazi holocaust. Still this isn't enough to make them interested
    in the Torah. They think they already are doing the Torah and spreading
    it, but it has big problems. They broke it on certain elements, even
    going as far as worshiping the Sun disk idol again (!). The idol is
    now being made in Yerushalayim (it seems), and they plan to put it on
    their 3rd Temple. They are doing the same as all the other religions:
    they think they are doing great, and the only problem is that people
    don't follow their lead. Their "moshiach" will fix that for them, and
    deliver humanity at their doorstep, to continue as they are but then
    with immense power over the world, and great standing.

    It doesn't seem to impress them that the Prophets are talking about
    them, when it says that the leaders of Israel are misleading Israel.
    They claim that this is politicians, not them of course. How could they
    make a mistake ? They seem unable to grasp the consept, and this is a
    little bit of a job deformity you can have if you are a teacher. A
    teacher is constantly teaching pupils, and this gives them the idea that
    they are always right, and they are always dealing with inferior thought
    which they need to correct. I once read that teachers are a choice in a
    Tyranny to be part of the machinery of the State, because they just
    execute blindly (arrogantly?). They don't think like "hmmm... what is
    the real logical truth in this case ..." but rather "does this conform
    to what I am supposed to behaviorally teach these children, or not; if
    not it is automatically a mistake". This job of teachers and also judges
    sets them up for a bit of an arrogant stance toward criticism.

    Like this: "Class ? Repeat after me: 2 + 2 = 5". Class repeats the same,
    and teacher is happy. He just wants to hear the same words back. If
    someone says "= 4", then he probably didn't hear it correctly, or he is
    stupid. How can he not repeat "2 + 2 = 5" ? If the matter is actually 5
    or 4, is no longer of interest, because "wiser people have resolved this problem already, and this is for the higher ups at higher education and positions of power to determine". With this mindset, things get stuck,
    and if things are wrong, they simply might not even notice. If they
    accept that a change is needed because "2 + 2 = 4", this opens up a big
    problem for their position, because the other teachers are now going to
    think the same about this teacher: can he not hear well, can he not even
    repeat what he is being told ?! They are likewise not going to think
    about the issue either.

    People don't usually like to do a lot of thinking. Personally I
    understand that, because real thinking isn't even any fun at all. It is
    hard work and you are probably going to be stuck at first, just stuck in
    the dark with no way out for the moment. You can read books all you
    want, but that is reading, not thinking. I suspect most people almost
    never think about anything in their lives, and possibly never do it at
    all, literally never think their entire lives about anything. Reading, repeating, or random musing about something and believing that this is thinking: absolutely yet. In as far as their minds are not being busy
    with their own social issues and emotions at least, which is probably
    almost all of the time.

    Animals have brains, do you think they worry and think about some detail
    and complex issue of the world, like why do we have seasons ? I doubt
    the animals can figure it out, although you can just see that the Sun is
    lower and that is essentially already the answer. To know that the Earth
    goes around the Sun though and all that: I don't think they can or do
    figure it out, since we humans also have had our troubles with it. They
    do have brains though, so what are those brains doing all day ? These
    brains are probably busy processing perceptions of the world, their body,
    what they need and want, where and how to get it, how they are feeling
    and all these things. It is the same with most if not all humans. Even
    simple things are not solved. The problem is: humans are in a state of
    flux, from basically being an animal hunter gatherer, to being a farmer
    with increasingly complex tool use. We cannot afford not to know a whole
    lot of things. We have to figure it out, and soon. We have to find the
    way to peace, and this is now an increasingly urgent matter of survival.

    Such are the reasons for the mess in the world, and also speficially in education. It can seem orderly, but if what is being taught is bad or
    even just seemingly wrong a little bit, the consequences can be
    disastrous for society at large. How can this problem be resolved ?
    Probably primarily by the usual system of action leading to benefit or detriment. Consequences of actions leading either to re-enforcing of
    having done something right, or needing to adjust differently because
    the result was bad.

    Nuclear World War 3 is a pain element in the world. Wars are
    increasingly pain elements to all sides. In earlier days, a few scuffles
    and angry words or threats may be enough for a small band to gain new resources, and therefor be worth the trouble. These days the violence
    has grown out to become full scale matches of annihilation, with both
    sides causing significant casualties and destruction to both sides.
    Nuclear world war and the accompanying Tyranny and the like, the
    possibilities of disruption of the economy, the supply chains, famine,
    is likely going to be another higher level of pain caused to all sides.
    Pain in general means mistake (I guess you can write a book about that,
    however in the most general and pure sense, pain is bad and happy is good).

    Are the Rabbis at least good enough to count as 'righteous' ?

    Modern Judaism has a concept called follower of Noah, which all people
    are supposed to be. The Rabbis of Israel are not following the Torah
    enough, and are therefore dismissable as Judges over the Torah law in
    legal cases, as well as being teachers in the same. Making a mistake or
    two is okay in my thinking, but this has gone on too long and it has
    gone too far. It seems to be proof of fundamental unreliability. The
    fact that nobody here even dares to debate these claims, also says
    enough. It's over. It is a corrupt system and will probably have to go
    away, like all the other religions and ideologies. Becoming guilty of
    not having prevented World War 3 and the second holocaust, might be
    enough for the remainder of Israel to get rid of this whole system of mainstream Rabbinical Judaism.

    Maybe the Rabbis themselves will be sick of it after all that is going
    to come. They said the "moshiach" was here, but instead what they got was
    the second holocaust and general depopulation. How do you deal with such
    a deception ? Perhaps some will entirely give up, but hopefully most or
    all of them will choose to finally return to the Torah, and do away with
    the prosbul (Hillel the Elder), heter iska (Rambam/Maimonides), failure
    to distribute the land, very weird laws allowing work on the evening
    following the 7th day (in their day counting, but it is all one day),
    and idolatry to the Sun, and perhaps other failings.

    The 7 laws of Noah are quite simple, Wikipedia reads:

    Not to worship idols.
    Not to curse God.
    Not to commit murder.
    Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
    Not to steal.
    Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.
    To establish courts of justice.

    Most of these are either followed entirely or partially by the Rabbis of
    Israel (I don't know what Kairites are doing, they are not mainstream
    modern Judaism). There are two which raise questions:

    Not to worship idols.
    Not to steal.

    While the so-called Lamp of Helena, a Sun disk idol worshiped by Israel
    not long before the Romans destroyed the 2nd Temple, is idolatry, it is
    another issue to say that the modern Rabbis still worship this idol. In general, it doesn't seam that they care or even know about this idol,
    while their words are quite clear that they define their God as the
    Creator of Everything (the God of Abraham, Moshe Rabbeinu, etc). On the
    other hand, I don't see them rebelling this idol, and I expect that once
    the 3rd Temple is put up, taht they will accept this idol being on
    there, because they seem to lack the courage to stand against what their perceived establishment is doing. Not one yet even had the courage to
    say when I complained about it, which is many time, that it is at least
    a suspect matter, etc (as far as I know).

    Prosbul and Heter iska raise issues with stealing, stealing from the
    poor. While it may not seem too serious because it is about loans, loan
    slavery has been a serious issue with humanity. Organized crime is
    always into loan sharking. The consequences can be more devastating
    than a simple theft of an item.

    There we have it then: the Rabbis can not be teachers of the Torah, they
    cannot be Judges, and even if they are still 'righteous of the Nations'
    in the sense of being like Noah, there are issues to look into. It isn't
    even clear if they can meet this standard, although they are close to
    it. Right now most Rabbis are probably not worshiping the Sun disk idol, although I expect that they will do it later if this thing is allowed to
    go on. They will probably make up excuses for themselves for why it is
    okay to have this idol on the Temple, and blablablabla like usual. Total nonsense arguments, and then obedience to it.

    They are also unlikely conducting loan sharking operations, or loan
    slavery operations, however they allow others to get into some of these
    bad behaviors and to hide their money away from the duting they have
    under the Torah. They become accomplices to a degree to these issues of
    failure to help the poor and possibly some loan thieving by the rich.
    The issue is probably not major, like they are some hardened organized
    crime unit (lol), but it is rubbing against it. They are too lenient.

    While they may not be breaking these 7 rules much, or are perhaps only
    guilty of allowing others to break these rules in a minor degree, it is worrying that the Rabbis of Israel are not completely clear and in
    the good on this relatively low standard of being like Noah, considering
    the wealth in law in the Torah they have a chance to follow, spread and
    keep.

    My final conclusion for this day (might change tomorrow ;-), just
    kidding), Rabbinical Judaism is going to have to go away in it's current
    form, for being guilty of breaking the Torah law and just making too
    many mistakes. If they don't want to bend back to the Torah, then maybe
    they will be broken down by the events they have partially caused, even
    if by not preventing them by showing a different example.

    I fear that there will be a great disillusion with the Torah, when the
    second holocaust is happening or has happened, because as written above:
    they expected Redemption and said "moshiach is here", but instead the
    Jewish people died like never before and all seems lost. It is very sad
    to think of all the Yeshivas which may be burning, children and people
    being murdered, Rabbis being murdered, while all these people may have
    done some wrongs, but in human terms it is another thing to condemn them
    to death for it. Nevertheless, reality can be harsh. Conseqences of a
    minor stumble with the feet, can be deadly at times. The world can
    definitely not go on as it is, and the Torah which the Rabbis are
    teaching is not going to be good enough for the future. If this is the stumbling block all of humanity is going to trip over, or if this is the helping hand they miss when they stumble (which is more accurate I
    suppose), then this seemingly small mistake is going to lead to an
    extreme catastrophe, and possibly even an ever lasting Tyranny on Earth
    (a high technological Tyrannical Dystopia - we don't know what it will
    all mean, and though 'forever' is exceedingly unlikely, the prospect of
    the modern capabilities in the wrong hands, which is where they are, is frightening).

    Then the words of Isaiah will come true: only a remnant will return. The
    others might be completely disillusioned, or dead. Hopefully though,
    when the truth breaks out finally, when a minimum of Jewish people cheer
    again for the Torah of Moshe Rabbeinu and are actually doing it,
    hopefully all will come back, and the people of Israel, the remainder
    who wanted to be good, who always really wanted to be good and that's
    all they wanted to do, will sing and dance, forever. Finally safe to be
    good, forever, as heaven has promised.

    (Lol, that's a lot of talk not saying much, but whatever; at least it
    had a little Torah topic in it I guess, sorry.)
    --
    Economic & political ideology, worked out into Constitutional models,
    with a multi-facetted implementation plan. http://market.socialism.nl

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)