• =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_[Apples]_determining_the_=e2=80=9cgreen-ness=e2=80=9d?= =

    From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to Michael Uplawski on Mon Dec 16 16:59:42 2024
    On 2024-12-11 07:34, Michael Uplawski wrote:
    Supersedes for typo, Kraut2English in progress

    Good afternoon.

    My question first: Is it possible to measure the wavelength of the
    light emitted or reflected from a surface in a way that would be
    practicable for just anybody, and with objects that would have to be “tested” all few minutes?

    I doubt it (knowing nothing, however).

    There are many difficulties that I can imagine and even more in the
    context of my professional activity, where I could benefit from such
    a technology ..:

    Yesterday I was separating green apples from those which approached
    a color that could be typical for a variety. I do this under neon
    lamps but the light from outside gets in and those apples that I
    discarded yesterday evening looked quite acceptable today.

    Green is just another problem, I guess. I have no idea if the Green
    of an apple is a pure color or a mixture that could in any way be
    evaluated as corresponding to something well determined.

    PSE take into consideration that all that I write above is based on assumptions. The question is really the one on top. Do not try to
    attack each false idea that I may have produced.., there are so many
    yet to be published, the thread would explode … ;)

    Thank you in any case.

    Michael


    Visual color is a much more complicated idea than wavelength,
    unfortunately. The eye has about a 2:1 bandwidth, give or take, from
    around 400 nm to 800 nm. The red and green cones' sensitivity spectra
    overlap almost 100%, which is why there's hardly any visual difference
    between 650 nm and 800 nm light except for its apparent brightness. The
    red starts really dropping on the blue side of 600 nm, so you get
    orange, yellow, and green all between 500 and 600 nm, and blue shading
    into violet from 490ish down to 400.

    The spectrum of the reflected light is basically the product of the illumination spectrum and the reflectance spectrum of the object.

    Some materials are fluorescent, but that's a small effect except in
    special cases, such as white cotton clothes washed using detergent
    containing fluorescent brighteners with short-wave illumination (e.g.
    'black light' near 385 nm).

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    http://hobbs-eo.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to Michael Uplawski on Mon Dec 16 22:57:32 2024
    Michael Uplawski <[email protected]> wrote:
    Supersedes for typo, Kraut2English in progress

    Good afternoon.

    My question first: Is it possible to measure the wavelength of the
    light emitted or reflected from a surface in a way that would be
    practicable for just anybody, and with objects that would have to be “tested” all few minutes?

    It sounds as if you're looking for something like this: https://www.ossila.com/products/optical-spectrometer

    HTH,

    bob prohaska

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael Uplawski@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Tue Dec 17 06:45:18 2024
    Supersedes for lack of words.

    [email protected] wrote in sci.optics:

    It sounds as if you're looking for something like this: >https://www.ossila.com/products/optical-spectrometer

    Wow. Thank you.
    I already have a scintillator for a slightly lower price; this tiny
    tool would just complete my “arsenal” to attack The Spectrum…

    Actually, with the detailed information that Phil has provided in <news:vjqb8s$1b6a4$[email protected]>, I am even more curious to
    compare my impressions to something measurable and – most of all –
    to find the differences under changing conditions.

    This may not get me any closer to doing a good job, though. But I am
    about to economize on the completely useless acquisition of a car.
    „Optical Spectrometer” – isn't that a pleonasm? And would my
    scintillator not be … no. Thank you, I got it. Never mind.

    Cheerio
    --
    “When you feel there is an unfair burdon on your shoulders
    well – that's just the way it is sometimes” (Winston Groom/Forest Gump)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael Uplawski@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Tue Dec 17 06:44:13 2024
    [email protected] wrote in sci.optics:

    It sounds as if you're looking for something like this: >https://www.ossila.com/products/optical-spectrometer

    Wow. Thank you.
    I already have a scintillator for a slightly lower price; this tiny
    tool would just complete my “arsenal” to attack The Spectrum…

    Actually, with the detailed information that Phil has provided in <news:vjqb8s$1b6a4$[email protected]>, I am even more curious to
    compare my impressions to something measurable and – most of all –
    to find the differences under changing conditions.

    This may not get me any closer to doing a good job, though. But I am
    about to economize on a completely useless acquisition. „Optical Spectrometer” – isn't that a pleonasm? And would my scintillator not
    be … no. Thank you, I got it. Never mind.

    Cheerio
    --
    “When you feel there is an unfair burdon on your shoulders
    well – that's just the way it is sometimes” (Winston Groom/Forest Gump)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael Uplawski@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Tue Dec 17 06:48:45 2024
    Supersedes for lack of words, and a wrong URI.

    [email protected] wrote in sci.optics:

    It sounds as if you're looking for something like this: >https://www.ossila.com/products/optical-spectrometer

    Wow. Thank you.
    I already have a scintillator for a slightly lower price; this tiny
    tool would just complete my “arsenal” to attack The Spectrum…

    Actually, with the detailed information that Phil has provided in <news:[email protected]>, I am even more
    curious to compare my impressions to something measurable and – most
    of all – to find the differences under changing conditions.

    This may not get me any closer to doing a good job, though. But I am
    about to economize on the completely useless acquisition of a car.
    „Optical Spectrometer” – isn't that a pleonasm? And would my
    scintillator not be … no. Thank you, I got it. Never mind.

    Cheerio
    --
    “When you feel there is an unfair burdon on your shoulders
    well – that's just the way it is sometimes” (Winston Groom/Forest Gump)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael Uplawski@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Tue Dec 17 06:50:10 2024
    Supersedes for lack of words, and a wrong URI.

    [email protected] wrote in sci.optics:

    It sounds as if you're looking for something like this: >https://www.ossila.com/products/optical-spectrometer

    Wow. Thank you.
    I already have a scintillator for a slightly lower price; this tiny
    tool would just complete my “arsenal” to attack The Spectrum…

    Actually, with the detailed information that Phil has provided in <news:[email protected]>, I am
    even more curious to compare my impressions to something measurable
    and – most of all – to find the differences under changing
    conditions.

    This may not get me any closer to doing a good job, though. But I am
    about to economize on the completely useless acquisition of a car.
    „Optical Spectrometer” – isn't that a pleonasm? And would my
    scintillator not be … no. Thank you, I got it. Never mind.

    Cheerio
    --
    “When you feel there is an unfair burdon on your shoulders
    well – that's just the way it is sometimes” (Winston Groom/Forest Gump)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael Uplawski@21:1/5 to Wei Lu on Fri Dec 20 11:18:01 2024
    Wei Lu wrote in sci.optics:

    Yes, like bob posted, what you need is a spectrometer designed for
    surface reflectance measurement (380~780nm). I am not familiar with the >products in the market, yet I think it could use an integration sphere
    with an opening size to cover a meaningful area, but not too big to
    deviate much from the measurement principle, maybe 5~10mm diameter, and
    with a space that could hold an apple under the opening.

    Thanks for going into further detail.
    I really like that my idea is not completely dumb and that there
    *are* technical solutions.

    A problem will be the price of the tool. I will have to purchase it
    privately (then use it for my pleasure).

    Then you need the software to calculate the colour of the surface.Some
    device may have the feature,

    What I saw on the Web came with the software. Second problem: I am
    glued to Linux. Similar programs that I have used, ran in the Wine
    (Windows-) emulator, but I would have to assure that this is
    possible with the new tool.

    or you can DIY (in principle, by multiply
    the incident spectrum (sun's spectrum AM1.5 could be a reference), the >measured reflectance spectrum, and the 3 response curve of the human
    eye,and integrate across 380~780nm). You will get a color coordinate,
    which are 3 quantitative value that can be used to compare, reproduce,
    or automatic select by machine.

    While I comprehend everything that mentions a “reference” .., once I
    want to really apply your advice, I might have to come back here and
    ask a few more questions… though you have probably already
    answered each one.

    It should be noted that the result is the colour and brightness
    perceived by a "standard" observer (the integration sphere), not the
    same as human eyes perceived in normal conditions. So you should not
    select an area of the "preferred" colour (in this case green) directly
    from the colour space (as in >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CIE1931xy_CIERGB.svg), instead, like
    in machine learning, you should use the "preferred" apples as samples to
    get a "preferred" colour space area, then use it as the selection standard.

    Yes. Believe it or not, that is what I do already: I take a standard
    apple (“big enough”, about 110g and just about as red/yellow as is needed) and
    compare in case of doubt.

    ;) These are cool followups to my initial post. I have assumed that
    I will be slightly swamped but it could be worse.

    Cheerio, have a nice week-end, marry X-mas or whatever it is, you
    will have these days.

    Micheal
    --
    “When you feel there is an unfair burdon on your shoulders
    well – that's just the way it is sometimes” (Winston Groom/Forest Gump)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to Michael Uplawski on Fri Dec 20 18:17:01 2024
    Michael Uplawski <[email protected]> wrote:

    What I saw on the Web came with the software. Second problem: I am
    glued to Linux. Similar programs that I have used, ran in the Wine
    (Windows-) emulator, but I would have to assure that this is
    possible with the new tool.


    Some hardware has Linux support that the manufacturers don't talk about,
    at least not openly. It's worth asking, and if the answer is "no", to
    do a little searching on your own.

    hth,

    bob prohaska

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)