• Re: I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases

    From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Sun Sep 1 07:06:40 2024
    On 8/31/24 11:04 PM, olcott wrote:
    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases*

    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the
    justification is sufficient reason to accept the
    truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem


    No, you just became a good example of the sort of thing that becomes the loophole.

    You clearly don't understand the problem, because you don't understand
    that the observer doesn't know enough to determine if the reasoning is sufficient.

    Sorry, you are just too stupid to understand your stupidity,

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Sun Sep 1 13:44:29 2024
    On 9/1/24 8:56 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 8/31/2024 10:04 PM, olcott wrote:
    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases*

    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the
    justification is sufficient reason to accept the
    truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem


    With a Justified true belief, in the Gettier cases
    the observer does not know enough to know its true
    yet it remains stipulated to be true.

    My original correction to this was a JTB such that the
    justification necessitates the truth of the belief.

    With a [Sufficiently Justified belief], it is stipulated
    that the observer does have a sufficient reason to accept
    the truth of the belief.


    But how does he get that?

    Your definition is just more your your illogical assumptiom of the
    conclusion.

    Thus, it doesn't actually handle the problem, but just shows that you
    dont actually understand the issue.

    This is a fundamental problem with ANY logic based on observation. How
    do we know that an observation of the universe is actually "correct" and
    does not contain an error.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Mon Sep 2 11:29:39 2024
    On 2024-09-01 12:56:16 +0000, olcott said:

    On 8/31/2024 10:04 PM, olcott wrote:
    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases*

    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the
    justification is sufficient reason to accept the
    truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem


    With a Justified true belief, in the Gettier cases
    the observer does not know enough to know its true
    yet it remains stipulated to be true.

    My original correction to this was a JTB such that the
    justification necessitates the truth of the belief.

    With a [Sufficiently Justified belief], it is stipulated
    that the observer does have a sufficient reason to accept
    the truth of the belief.

    What could be a sufficient reason? Every justification of every
    belief involves other belifs that could be false.

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Mon Sep 2 12:11:27 2024
    On 9/2/24 8:24 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/2/2024 3:29 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 12:56:16 +0000, olcott said:

    On 8/31/2024 10:04 PM, olcott wrote:
    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases*

    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the
    justification is sufficient reason to accept the
    truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem


    With a Justified true belief, in the Gettier cases
    the observer does not know enough to know its true
    yet it remains stipulated to be true.

    My original correction to this was a JTB such that the
    justification necessitates the truth of the belief.

    With a [Sufficiently Justified belief], it is stipulated
    that the observer does have a sufficient reason to accept
    the truth of the belief.

    What could be a sufficient reason? Every justification of every
    belief involves other belifs that could be false.


    For the justification to be sufficient the consequence of
    the belief must be semantically entailed by its justification.

    How does that handle the case where described where the error is in the interpreation of the observatin.


    When the truth of a belief is a necessary consequence of its
    justification then this justification is necessarily sufficient.

    But what it the justification was wrong?


    "This article talks about planets in our solar system" https://www.space.com/16080-solar-system-planets.html
    Is verified by the article talking about planets in our solar system.

    But, how do you know that it is a CORRECT description of the planets, or
    uses the correct definition of planets?


    Believing the the boiling point of water is about 212 degrees F
    on the basis of looking it up in a textbook also seems to be
    a sufficient reason.


    Then you better live near sea level, or you will be wrong, it appear
    that the boiling point of water in Denver is about 202 F (95C).

    Also, textbooks can be wrong.

    After all, Textbooks say that the Halting Problem is unsolvable, so
    either you admit that you have wasted decades going after something that
    you are now trying to say must had sufficient justification, or you
    admit that your current idea is just wrong.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Tue Sep 3 13:44:15 2024
    On 2024-09-02 12:24:38 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/2/2024 3:29 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 12:56:16 +0000, olcott said:

    On 8/31/2024 10:04 PM, olcott wrote:
    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases*

    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the
    justification is sufficient reason to accept the
    truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem


    With a Justified true belief, in the Gettier cases
    the observer does not know enough to know its true
    yet it remains stipulated to be true.

    My original correction to this was a JTB such that the
    justification necessitates the truth of the belief.

    With a [Sufficiently Justified belief], it is stipulated
    that the observer does have a sufficient reason to accept
    the truth of the belief.

    What could be a sufficient reason? Every justification of every
    belief involves other belifs that could be false.

    For the justification to be sufficient the consequence of
    the belief must be semantically entailed by its justification.

    If the belief is about something real then its justification
    involves claims about something real. Nothing real is certain.

    If the belief is not about something real then it is not clear
    whether it is correct to call it "belief".

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Tue Sep 3 22:26:38 2024
    On 9/3/24 8:49 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/3/2024 5:44 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 12:24:38 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/2/2024 3:29 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 12:56:16 +0000, olcott said:

    On 8/31/2024 10:04 PM, olcott wrote:
    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases*

    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the
    justification is sufficient reason to accept the
    truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem


    With a Justified true belief, in the Gettier cases
    the observer does not know enough to know its true
    yet it remains stipulated to be true.

    My original correction to this was a JTB such that the
    justification necessitates the truth of the belief.

    With a [Sufficiently Justified belief], it is stipulated
    that the observer does have a sufficient reason to accept
    the truth of the belief.

    What could be a sufficient reason? Every justification of every
    belief involves other belifs that could be false.

    For the justification to be sufficient the consequence of
    the belief must be semantically entailed by its justification.

    If the belief is about something real then its justification
    involves claims about something real. Nothing real is certain.


    I don't think that is correct.
    My left hand exists right now even if it is
    a mere figment of my own imagination and five
    minutes ago never existed.

    How are you SURE about that. I figment of your imagination is NOT
    something that actually exists.

    Your left hand could be gone, and you just have a mental block that
    prevents you from noticing it.



    If the belief is not about something real then it is not clear
    whether it is correct to call it "belief".


    *An axiomatic chain of inference based on this*
    By the theory of simple types I mean the doctrine which says
    that the objects of thought (or, in another interpretation,
    the symbolic expressions) are divided into types, namely:
    individuals, properties of individuals, relations between
    individuals, properties of such relations, etc.

    ...sentences of the form: " a has the property φ ", " b bears
    the relation R to c ", etc. are meaningless, if a, b, c, R, φ
    are not of types fitting together. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_type_theory#G%C3%B6del_1944


    Yes, ANALYTIC truth can be (possibly) confirmed with certainty.

    OBSERVATIONS might be incorrect or incorrectly interpreted, and thus
    there can not be certainty.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Fri Sep 6 14:43:08 2024
    On 2024-09-03 12:49:11 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 5:44 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 12:24:38 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/2/2024 3:29 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 12:56:16 +0000, olcott said:

    On 8/31/2024 10:04 PM, olcott wrote:
    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases*

    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the
    justification is sufficient reason to accept the
    truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem


    With a Justified true belief, in the Gettier cases
    the observer does not know enough to know its true
    yet it remains stipulated to be true.

    My original correction to this was a JTB such that the
    justification necessitates the truth of the belief.

    With a [Sufficiently Justified belief], it is stipulated
    that the observer does have a sufficient reason to accept
    the truth of the belief.

    What could be a sufficient reason? Every justification of every
    belief involves other belifs that could be false.

    For the justification to be sufficient the consequence of
    the belief must be semantically entailed by its justification.

    If the belief is about something real then its justification
    involves claims about something real. Nothing real is certain.


    I don't think that is correct.
    My left hand exists right now even if it is
    a mere figment of my own imagination and five
    minutes ago never existed.

    As I don't know and can't (at least now) verify whether your left
    hand exists or ever existed I can't regard that as a counter-
    example.

    If the belief is not about something real then it is not clear
    whether it is correct to call it "belief".

    *An axiomatic chain of inference based on this*
    By the theory of simple types I mean the doctrine which says
    that the objects of thought (or, in another interpretation,
    the symbolic expressions) are divided into types, namely:
    individuals, properties of individuals, relations between
    individuals, properties of such relations, etc.

    ...sentences of the form: " a has the property φ ", " b bears
    the relation R to c ", etc. are meaningless, if a, b, c, R, φ
    are not of types fitting together. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_type_theory#G%C3%B6del_1944

    The concepts of knowledge and truth are applicable to the knowledge
    whether that is what certain peple meant when using those words.
    Whether or to what extent that theory can be said to be true is
    another problem.

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Fri Sep 6 19:41:16 2024
    On 9/6/24 8:24 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/6/2024 6:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 12:49:11 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 5:44 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 12:24:38 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/2/2024 3:29 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 12:56:16 +0000, olcott said:

    On 8/31/2024 10:04 PM, olcott wrote:
    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases*

    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the
    justification is sufficient reason to accept the
    truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem


    With a Justified true belief, in the Gettier cases
    the observer does not know enough to know its true
    yet it remains stipulated to be true.

    My original correction to this was a JTB such that the
    justification necessitates the truth of the belief.

    With a [Sufficiently Justified belief], it is stipulated
    that the observer does have a sufficient reason to accept
    the truth of the belief.

    What could be a sufficient reason? Every justification of every
    belief involves other belifs that could be false.

    For the justification to be sufficient the consequence of
    the belief must be semantically entailed by its justification.

    If the belief is about something real then its justification
    involves claims about something real. Nothing real is certain.


    I don't think that is correct.
    My left hand exists right now even if it is
    a mere figment of my own imagination and five
    minutes ago never existed.

    As I don't know and can't (at least now) verify whether your left
    hand exists or ever existed I can't regard that as a counter-
    example.

    If the belief is not about something real then it is not clear
    whether it is correct to call it "belief".

    *An axiomatic chain of inference based on this*
    By the theory of simple types I mean the doctrine which says
    that the objects of thought (or, in another interpretation,
    the symbolic expressions) are divided into types, namely:
    individuals, properties of individuals, relations between
    individuals, properties of such relations, etc.

    ...sentences of the form: " a has the property φ ", " b bears
    the relation R to c ", etc. are meaningless, if a, b, c, R, φ
    are not of types fitting together.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_type_theory#G%C3%B6del_1944

    The concepts of knowledge and truth are applicable to the knowledge
    whether that is what certain peple meant when using those words.
    Whether or to what extent that theory can be said to be true is
    another problem.


    The fundamental architectural overview of all Prolog implementations
    is the same True(x) means X is derived by applying Rules (AKA truth preserving operations) to Facts.

    But Prolog can't even handle full first order logic, only basic
    propositions. The way you keep falling back to it shows that your
    understanding of Logic is very limited.

    That is the way that all expressions X of language L are determined
    to be true in L on the basis of the connection from X in L by truth preserving operations to the semantic meaning of X in L.

    Right, but the connection might be infinite in length.


    {Linguistic truth} is the philosophical foundation of truth
    in math and logic, AKA relations between finite strings.


    Which you can't seem to explain how it differs from the classical
    semantic truth created by the (possibly infinite) chain of logical steps
    from the fundamental truth-makers of the system.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to Richard Damon on Sat Sep 7 11:46:37 2024
    On 2024-09-06 23:41:16 +0000, Richard Damon said:

    On 9/6/24 8:24 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/6/2024 6:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 12:49:11 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 5:44 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 12:24:38 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/2/2024 3:29 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 12:56:16 +0000, olcott said:

    On 8/31/2024 10:04 PM, olcott wrote:
    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases*

    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the
    justification is sufficient reason to accept the
    truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem


    With a Justified true belief, in the Gettier cases
    the observer does not know enough to know its true
    yet it remains stipulated to be true.

    My original correction to this was a JTB such that the
    justification necessitates the truth of the belief.

    With a [Sufficiently Justified belief], it is stipulated
    that the observer does have a sufficient reason to accept
    the truth of the belief.

    What could be a sufficient reason? Every justification of every
    belief involves other belifs that could be false.

    For the justification to be sufficient the consequence of
    the belief must be semantically entailed by its justification.

    If the belief is about something real then its justification
    involves claims about something real. Nothing real is certain.


    I don't think that is correct.
    My left hand exists right now even if it is
    a mere figment of my own imagination and five
    minutes ago never existed.

    As I don't know and can't (at least now) verify whether your left
    hand exists or ever existed I can't regard that as a counter-
    example.

    If the belief is not about something real then it is not clear
    whether it is correct to call it "belief".

    *An axiomatic chain of inference based on this*
    By the theory of simple types I mean the doctrine which says
    that the objects of thought (or, in another interpretation,
    the symbolic expressions) are divided into types, namely:
    individuals, properties of individuals, relations between
    individuals, properties of such relations, etc.

    ...sentences of the form: " a has the property φ ", " b bears
    the relation R to c ", etc. are meaningless, if a, b, c, R, φ
    are not of types fitting together.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_type_theory#G%C3%B6del_1944

    The concepts of knowledge and truth are applicable to the knowledge
    whether that is what certain peple meant when using those words.
    Whether or to what extent that theory can be said to be true is
    another problem.


    The fundamental architectural overview of all Prolog implementations
    is the same True(x) means X is derived by applying Rules (AKA truth
    preserving operations) to Facts.

    But Prolog can't even handle full first order logic, only basic propositions.

    The logic behind Prolog is restricted enough that incompleteness cannot
    be differentiated from consistency. It seems that Olcott wants a logic
    with that impossibility.

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to Mikko on Sat Sep 7 09:03:27 2024
    On 9/7/24 4:46 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-06 23:41:16 +0000, Richard Damon said:

    On 9/6/24 8:24 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/6/2024 6:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 12:49:11 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 5:44 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 12:24:38 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/2/2024 3:29 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 12:56:16 +0000, olcott said:

    On 8/31/2024 10:04 PM, olcott wrote:
    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases*

    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the
    justification is sufficient reason to accept the
    truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem


    With a Justified true belief, in the Gettier cases
    the observer does not know enough to know its true
    yet it remains stipulated to be true.

    My original correction to this was a JTB such that the
    justification necessitates the truth of the belief.

    With a [Sufficiently Justified belief], it is stipulated
    that the observer does have a sufficient reason to accept
    the truth of the belief.

    What could be a sufficient reason? Every justification of every >>>>>>>> belief involves other belifs that could be false.

    For the justification to be sufficient the consequence of
    the belief must be semantically entailed by its justification.

    If the belief is about something real then its justification
    involves claims about something real. Nothing real is certain.


    I don't think that is correct.
    My left hand exists right now even if it is
    a mere figment of my own imagination and five
    minutes ago never existed.

    As I don't know and can't (at least now) verify whether your left
    hand exists or ever existed I can't regard that as a counter-
    example.

    If the belief is not about something real then it is not clear
    whether it is correct to call it "belief".

    *An axiomatic chain of inference based on this*
    By the theory of simple types I mean the doctrine which says
    that the objects of thought (or, in another interpretation,
    the symbolic expressions) are divided into types, namely:
    individuals, properties of individuals, relations between
    individuals, properties of such relations, etc.

    ...sentences of the form: " a has the property φ ", " b bears
    the relation R to c ", etc. are meaningless, if a, b, c, R, φ
    are not of types fitting together.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_type_theory#G%C3%B6del_1944

    The concepts of knowledge and truth are applicable to the knowledge
    whether that is what certain peple meant when using those words.
    Whether or to what extent that theory can be said to be true is
    another problem.


    The fundamental architectural overview of all Prolog implementations
    is the same True(x) means X is derived by applying Rules (AKA truth
    preserving operations) to Facts.

    But Prolog can't even handle full first order logic, only basic
    propositions.

    The logic behind Prolog is restricted enough that incompleteness cannot
    be differentiated from consistency. It seems that Olcott wants a logic
    with that impossibility.


    Yes, it seems his understanding of logic is so limited, that the
    problems he is tryihg to solve just don't exist in that system, but
    doens't understand that is the fact.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Sat Sep 7 09:43:00 2024
    On 9/7/24 9:28 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/7/2024 3:46 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-06 23:41:16 +0000, Richard Damon said:

    On 9/6/24 8:24 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/6/2024 6:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 12:49:11 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 5:44 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 12:24:38 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/2/2024 3:29 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 12:56:16 +0000, olcott said:

    On 8/31/2024 10:04 PM, olcott wrote:
    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases*

    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the
    justification is sufficient reason to accept the
    truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem


    With a Justified true belief, in the Gettier cases
    the observer does not know enough to know its true
    yet it remains stipulated to be true.

    My original correction to this was a JTB such that the
    justification necessitates the truth of the belief.

    With a [Sufficiently Justified belief], it is stipulated
    that the observer does have a sufficient reason to accept
    the truth of the belief.

    What could be a sufficient reason? Every justification of every >>>>>>>>> belief involves other belifs that could be false.

    For the justification to be sufficient the consequence of
    the belief must be semantically entailed by its justification.

    If the belief is about something real then its justification
    involves claims about something real. Nothing real is certain.


    I don't think that is correct.
    My left hand exists right now even if it is
    a mere figment of my own imagination and five
    minutes ago never existed.

    As I don't know and can't (at least now) verify whether your left
    hand exists or ever existed I can't regard that as a counter-
    example.

    If the belief is not about something real then it is not clear
    whether it is correct to call it "belief".

    *An axiomatic chain of inference based on this*
    By the theory of simple types I mean the doctrine which says
    that the objects of thought (or, in another interpretation,
    the symbolic expressions) are divided into types, namely:
    individuals, properties of individuals, relations between
    individuals, properties of such relations, etc.

    ...sentences of the form: " a has the property φ ", " b bears
    the relation R to c ", etc. are meaningless, if a, b, c, R, φ
    are not of types fitting together.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_type_theory#G%C3%B6del_1944 >>>>>
    The concepts of knowledge and truth are applicable to the knowledge
    whether that is what certain peple meant when using those words.
    Whether or to what extent that theory can be said to be true is
    another problem.


    The fundamental architectural overview of all Prolog implementations
    is the same True(x) means X is derived by applying Rules (AKA truth
    preserving operations) to Facts.

    But Prolog can't even handle full first order logic, only basic
    propositions.

    The logic behind Prolog is restricted enough that incompleteness cannot
    be differentiated from consistency. It seems that Olcott wants a logic
    with that impossibility.


    Just the architecture of Prolog Facts and Rules such that
    (a) Facts are expressions stipulated to be true.
    (b) Rules are truth preserving operations.
    (c) Expression x is only true in L when x is derived
        by applying Rules to Facts in L.

    Underlying this is a knowledge ontology inheritance
    hierarchy that is similar to a type hierarchy of an
    simultaneously arbitrary number of orders of logic
    in the same formal system.



    Just shows you are flapping your mouth with gibberish and don't actually
    know what you are talking about.

    My guess is that about half the words you use have been done with a
    "private" meaning somewhat different from the conventional meaning
    because you don't understand how those terms are actually used in the
    system.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Python@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 9 16:49:49 2024
    Le 09/09/2024 à 15:14, olcott a écrit :
    On 9/7/2024 8:43 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/7/24 9:28 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/7/2024 3:46 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-06 23:41:16 +0000, Richard Damon said:

    On 9/6/24 8:24 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/6/2024 6:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 12:49:11 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 5:44 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 12:24:38 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/2/2024 3:29 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 12:56:16 +0000, olcott said:

    On 8/31/2024 10:04 PM, olcott wrote:
    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases*

    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the
    justification is sufficient reason to accept the
    truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem


    With a Justified true belief, in the Gettier cases
    the observer does not know enough to know its true
    yet it remains stipulated to be true.

    My original correction to this was a JTB such that the >>>>>>>>>>>> justification necessitates the truth of the belief.

    With a [Sufficiently Justified belief], it is stipulated >>>>>>>>>>>> that the observer does have a sufficient reason to accept >>>>>>>>>>>> the truth of the belief.

    What could be a sufficient reason? Every justification of every >>>>>>>>>>> belief involves other belifs that could be false.

    For the justification to be sufficient the consequence of
    the belief must be semantically entailed by its justification. >>>>>>>>>
    If the belief is about something real then its justification >>>>>>>>> involves claims about something real. Nothing real is certain. >>>>>>>>>

    I don't think that is correct.
    My left hand exists right now even if it is
    a mere figment of my own imagination and five
    minutes ago never existed.

    As I don't know and can't (at least now) verify whether your left >>>>>>> hand exists or ever existed I can't regard that as a counter-
    example.

    If the belief is not about something real then it is not clear >>>>>>>>> whether it is correct to call it "belief".

    *An axiomatic chain of inference based on this*
    By the theory of simple types I mean the doctrine which says
    that the objects of thought (or, in another interpretation,
    the symbolic expressions) are divided into types, namely:
    individuals, properties of individuals, relations between
    individuals, properties of such relations, etc.

    ...sentences of the form: " a has the property φ ", " b bears >>>>>>>> the relation R to c ", etc. are meaningless, if a, b, c, R, φ >>>>>>>> are not of types fitting together.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_type_theory#G%C3%B6del_1944 >>>>>>>
    The concepts of knowledge and truth are applicable to the knowledge >>>>>>> whether that is what certain peple meant when using those words. >>>>>>> Whether or to what extent that theory can be said to be true is
    another problem.


    The fundamental architectural overview of all Prolog implementations >>>>>> is the same True(x) means X is derived by applying Rules (AKA
    truth preserving operations) to Facts.

    But Prolog can't even handle full first order logic, only basic
    propositions.

    The logic behind Prolog is restricted enough that incompleteness cannot >>>> be differentiated from consistency. It seems that Olcott wants a logic >>>> with that impossibility.


    Just the architecture of Prolog Facts and Rules such that
    (a) Facts are expressions stipulated to be true.
    (b) Rules are truth preserving operations.
    (c) Expression x is only true in L when x is derived
         by applying Rules to Facts in L.

    Underlying this is a knowledge ontology inheritance
    hierarchy that is similar to a type hierarchy of an
    simultaneously arbitrary number of orders of logic
    in the same formal system.



    Just shows you are flapping your mouth with gibberish and don't
    actually know what you are talking about.

    I am stipulating how those terms work in my
    adaptation of Prolog

    You can stipulate fallacies, it doesn't turn them into truth.

    freaking nitwit.

    Nice signature Peter!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Mon Sep 9 22:48:11 2024
    On 9/9/24 9:14 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/7/2024 8:43 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/7/24 9:28 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/7/2024 3:46 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-06 23:41:16 +0000, Richard Damon said:

    On 9/6/24 8:24 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/6/2024 6:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 12:49:11 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 5:44 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 12:24:38 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/2/2024 3:29 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 12:56:16 +0000, olcott said:

    On 8/31/2024 10:04 PM, olcott wrote:
    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases*

    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the
    justification is sufficient reason to accept the
    truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem


    With a Justified true belief, in the Gettier cases
    the observer does not know enough to know its true
    yet it remains stipulated to be true.

    My original correction to this was a JTB such that the >>>>>>>>>>>> justification necessitates the truth of the belief.

    With a [Sufficiently Justified belief], it is stipulated >>>>>>>>>>>> that the observer does have a sufficient reason to accept >>>>>>>>>>>> the truth of the belief.

    What could be a sufficient reason? Every justification of every >>>>>>>>>>> belief involves other belifs that could be false.

    For the justification to be sufficient the consequence of
    the belief must be semantically entailed by its justification. >>>>>>>>>
    If the belief is about something real then its justification >>>>>>>>> involves claims about something real. Nothing real is certain. >>>>>>>>>

    I don't think that is correct.
    My left hand exists right now even if it is
    a mere figment of my own imagination and five
    minutes ago never existed.

    As I don't know and can't (at least now) verify whether your left >>>>>>> hand exists or ever existed I can't regard that as a counter-
    example.

    If the belief is not about something real then it is not clear >>>>>>>>> whether it is correct to call it "belief".

    *An axiomatic chain of inference based on this*
    By the theory of simple types I mean the doctrine which says
    that the objects of thought (or, in another interpretation,
    the symbolic expressions) are divided into types, namely:
    individuals, properties of individuals, relations between
    individuals, properties of such relations, etc.

    ...sentences of the form: " a has the property φ ", " b bears >>>>>>>> the relation R to c ", etc. are meaningless, if a, b, c, R, φ >>>>>>>> are not of types fitting together.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_type_theory#G%C3%B6del_1944 >>>>>>>
    The concepts of knowledge and truth are applicable to the knowledge >>>>>>> whether that is what certain peple meant when using those words. >>>>>>> Whether or to what extent that theory can be said to be true is
    another problem.


    The fundamental architectural overview of all Prolog implementations >>>>>> is the same True(x) means X is derived by applying Rules (AKA
    truth preserving operations) to Facts.

    But Prolog can't even handle full first order logic, only basic
    propositions.

    The logic behind Prolog is restricted enough that incompleteness cannot >>>> be differentiated from consistency. It seems that Olcott wants a logic >>>> with that impossibility.


    Just the architecture of Prolog Facts and Rules such that
    (a) Facts are expressions stipulated to be true.
    (b) Rules are truth preserving operations.
    (c) Expression x is only true in L when x is derived
         by applying Rules to Facts in L.

    Underlying this is a knowledge ontology inheritance
    hierarchy that is similar to a type hierarchy of an
    simultaneously arbitrary number of orders of logic
    in the same formal system.



    Just shows you are flapping your mouth with gibberish and don't
    actually know what you are talking about.

    I am stipulating how those terms work in my
    adaptation of Prolog you freaking nitwit.


    Then you aren't talking "Prolog", which is a fairly defined language.

    Sorry, you just admitted that you are just a liar, because you think
    words are ultimately flexable in meaning.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Mon Sep 9 22:58:41 2024
    On 9/9/24 1:38 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/7/2024 3:46 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-06 23:41:16 +0000, Richard Damon said:

    On 9/6/24 8:24 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/6/2024 6:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 12:49:11 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 5:44 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 12:24:38 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/2/2024 3:29 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 12:56:16 +0000, olcott said:

    On 8/31/2024 10:04 PM, olcott wrote:
    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases*

    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the
    justification is sufficient reason to accept the
    truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem


    With a Justified true belief, in the Gettier cases
    the observer does not know enough to know its true
    yet it remains stipulated to be true.

    My original correction to this was a JTB such that the
    justification necessitates the truth of the belief.

    With a [Sufficiently Justified belief], it is stipulated
    that the observer does have a sufficient reason to accept
    the truth of the belief.

    What could be a sufficient reason? Every justification of every >>>>>>>>> belief involves other belifs that could be false.

    For the justification to be sufficient the consequence of
    the belief must be semantically entailed by its justification.

    If the belief is about something real then its justification
    involves claims about something real. Nothing real is certain.


    I don't think that is correct.
    My left hand exists right now even if it is
    a mere figment of my own imagination and five
    minutes ago never existed.

    As I don't know and can't (at least now) verify whether your left
    hand exists or ever existed I can't regard that as a counter-
    example.

    If the belief is not about something real then it is not clear
    whether it is correct to call it "belief".

    *An axiomatic chain of inference based on this*
    By the theory of simple types I mean the doctrine which says
    that the objects of thought (or, in another interpretation,
    the symbolic expressions) are divided into types, namely:
    individuals, properties of individuals, relations between
    individuals, properties of such relations, etc.

    ...sentences of the form: " a has the property φ ", " b bears
    the relation R to c ", etc. are meaningless, if a, b, c, R, φ
    are not of types fitting together.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_type_theory#G%C3%B6del_1944 >>>>>
    The concepts of knowledge and truth are applicable to the knowledge
    whether that is what certain peple meant when using those words.
    Whether or to what extent that theory can be said to be true is
    another problem.


    The fundamental architectural overview of all Prolog implementations
    is the same True(x) means X is derived by applying Rules (AKA truth
    preserving operations) to Facts.

    But Prolog can't even handle full first order logic, only basic
    propositions.

    The logic behind Prolog is restricted enough that incompleteness cannot
    be differentiated from consistency. It seems that Olcott wants a logic
    with that impossibility.


    It is not that incompleteness cannot be differentiated
    from inconsistency it is that the inconsistency of
    self-contradiction has been mistaken for undecidability
    instead of invalid input.

    But the statement that Godel proved to be true but not provable in PA
    wasn't self-contradictory.

    You are just proving your own stupidity.


    From the mistake of undecidability incompleteness is
    mistaken to occur.

    This happens because even most modern philosophers are
    too stupid to understand that self-contradictory expressions
    such as the Liar Paradox are not truth-bearers thus must
    be rejected as invalid input.


    No, you are just to stupid to understand that you don't know what you
    are talking about, and just proving that you are nothing but a pathetic ignorant pathological lying idiot that can't understand that he doesn't
    kow what he is talking about because he brainwashed himself with his lies.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Tue Sep 10 12:34:29 2024
    On 2024-09-09 17:38:04 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/7/2024 3:46 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-06 23:41:16 +0000, Richard Damon said:

    On 9/6/24 8:24 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/6/2024 6:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 12:49:11 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 5:44 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 12:24:38 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/2/2024 3:29 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 12:56:16 +0000, olcott said:

    On 8/31/2024 10:04 PM, olcott wrote:
    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases*

    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the
    justification is sufficient reason to accept the
    truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem


    With a Justified true belief, in the Gettier cases
    the observer does not know enough to know its true
    yet it remains stipulated to be true.

    My original correction to this was a JTB such that the
    justification necessitates the truth of the belief.

    With a [Sufficiently Justified belief], it is stipulated
    that the observer does have a sufficient reason to accept
    the truth of the belief.

    What could be a sufficient reason? Every justification of every >>>>>>>>> belief involves other belifs that could be false.

    For the justification to be sufficient the consequence of
    the belief must be semantically entailed by its justification.

    If the belief is about something real then its justification
    involves claims about something real. Nothing real is certain.


    I don't think that is correct.
    My left hand exists right now even if it is
    a mere figment of my own imagination and five
    minutes ago never existed.

    As I don't know and can't (at least now) verify whether your left
    hand exists or ever existed I can't regard that as a counter-
    example.

    If the belief is not about something real then it is not clear
    whether it is correct to call it "belief".

    *An axiomatic chain of inference based on this*
    By the theory of simple types I mean the doctrine which says
    that the objects of thought (or, in another interpretation,
    the symbolic expressions) are divided into types, namely:
    individuals, properties of individuals, relations between
    individuals, properties of such relations, etc.

    ...sentences of the form: " a has the property φ ", " b bears
    the relation R to c ", etc. are meaningless, if a, b, c, R, φ
    are not of types fitting together.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_type_theory#G%C3%B6del_1944 >>>>>
    The concepts of knowledge and truth are applicable to the knowledge
    whether that is what certain peple meant when using those words.
    Whether or to what extent that theory can be said to be true is
    another problem.


    The fundamental architectural overview of all Prolog implementations
    is the same True(x) means X is derived by applying Rules (AKA truth
    preserving operations) to Facts.

    But Prolog can't even handle full first order logic, only basic propositions.

    The logic behind Prolog is restricted enough that incompleteness cannot
    be differentiated from consistency. It seems that Olcott wants a logic
    with that impossibility.

    It is not that incompleteness cannot be differentiated
    from inconsistency it is that the inconsistency of
    self-contradiction has been mistaken for undecidability
    instead of invalid input.

    Of course incompleteness can be differentiated from incosistency.
    An incosistent theory cannot be incomplete, at least if any ordinary
    logic is used. If you want to use a paraconsistent logic then you
    must be very careful with terms of ordinary logic.

    The basic theory behind Prolog is Horn Clauses, where incompleteness
    cannot be differentiated from consistency. Standard Prolog has features
    that break the logic if used but the terms "incompleteness" and
    "consistency" are only defined for logic, not programming.

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to Richard Damon on Tue Sep 10 12:26:07 2024
    On 2024-09-10 02:48:11 +0000, Richard Damon said:

    On 9/9/24 9:14 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/7/2024 8:43 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/7/24 9:28 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/7/2024 3:46 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-06 23:41:16 +0000, Richard Damon said:

    On 9/6/24 8:24 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/6/2024 6:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 12:49:11 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 5:44 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 12:24:38 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/2/2024 3:29 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 12:56:16 +0000, olcott said:

    On 8/31/2024 10:04 PM, olcott wrote:
    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases*

    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification is sufficient reason to accept the
    truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem


    With a Justified true belief, in the Gettier cases
    the observer does not know enough to know its true
    yet it remains stipulated to be true.

    My original correction to this was a JTB such that the >>>>>>>>>>>>> justification necessitates the truth of the belief.

    With a [Sufficiently Justified belief], it is stipulated >>>>>>>>>>>>> that the observer does have a sufficient reason to accept >>>>>>>>>>>>> the truth of the belief.

    What could be a sufficient reason? Every justification of every >>>>>>>>>>>> belief involves other belifs that could be false.

    For the justification to be sufficient the consequence of >>>>>>>>>>> the belief must be semantically entailed by its justification. >>>>>>>>>>
    If the belief is about something real then its justification >>>>>>>>>> involves claims about something real. Nothing real is certain. >>>>>>>>>>

    I don't think that is correct.
    My left hand exists right now even if it is
    a mere figment of my own imagination and five
    minutes ago never existed.

    As I don't know and can't (at least now) verify whether your left >>>>>>>> hand exists or ever existed I can't regard that as a counter-
    example.

    If the belief is not about something real then it is not clear >>>>>>>>>> whether it is correct to call it "belief".

    *An axiomatic chain of inference based on this*
    By the theory of simple types I mean the doctrine which says >>>>>>>>> that the objects of thought (or, in another interpretation,
    the symbolic expressions) are divided into types, namely:
    individuals, properties of individuals, relations between
    individuals, properties of such relations, etc.

    ...sentences of the form: " a has the property φ ", " b bears >>>>>>>>> the relation R to c ", etc. are meaningless, if a, b, c, R, φ >>>>>>>>> are not of types fitting together.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_type_theory#G%C3%B6del_1944 >>>>>>>>
    The concepts of knowledge and truth are applicable to the knowledge >>>>>>>> whether that is what certain peple meant when using those words. >>>>>>>> Whether or to what extent that theory can be said to be true is >>>>>>>> another problem.


    The fundamental architectural overview of all Prolog implementations >>>>>>> is the same True(x) means X is derived by applying Rules (AKA truth >>>>>>> preserving operations) to Facts.

    But Prolog can't even handle full first order logic, only basic propositions.

    The logic behind Prolog is restricted enough that incompleteness cannot >>>>> be differentiated from consistency. It seems that Olcott wants a logic >>>>> with that impossibility.


    Just the architecture of Prolog Facts and Rules such that
    (a) Facts are expressions stipulated to be true.
    (b) Rules are truth preserving operations.
    (c) Expression x is only true in L when x is derived
         by applying Rules to Facts in L.

    Underlying this is a knowledge ontology inheritance
    hierarchy that is similar to a type hierarchy of an
    simultaneously arbitrary number of orders of logic
    in the same formal system.



    Just shows you are flapping your mouth with gibberish and don't
    actually know what you are talking about.

    I am stipulating how those terms work in my
    adaptation of Prolog you freaking nitwit.


    Then you aren't talking "Prolog", which is a fairly defined language.

    Is and is not. There is the standard Prolog but the name Prolog was already
    in use before the first standard. There are many different variants that
    are not standard conforming but are calloe "Prolog" anyway.

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Tue Sep 10 21:37:07 2024
    On 9/10/24 9:32 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/10/2024 4:34 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-09 17:38:04 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/7/2024 3:46 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-06 23:41:16 +0000, Richard Damon said:

    On 9/6/24 8:24 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/6/2024 6:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 12:49:11 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 5:44 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 12:24:38 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/2/2024 3:29 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 12:56:16 +0000, olcott said:

    On 8/31/2024 10:04 PM, olcott wrote:
    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases*

    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the
    justification is sufficient reason to accept the
    truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem


    With a Justified true belief, in the Gettier cases
    the observer does not know enough to know its true
    yet it remains stipulated to be true.

    My original correction to this was a JTB such that the >>>>>>>>>>>> justification necessitates the truth of the belief.

    With a [Sufficiently Justified belief], it is stipulated >>>>>>>>>>>> that the observer does have a sufficient reason to accept >>>>>>>>>>>> the truth of the belief.

    What could be a sufficient reason? Every justification of every >>>>>>>>>>> belief involves other belifs that could be false.

    For the justification to be sufficient the consequence of
    the belief must be semantically entailed by its justification. >>>>>>>>>
    If the belief is about something real then its justification >>>>>>>>> involves claims about something real. Nothing real is certain. >>>>>>>>>

    I don't think that is correct.
    My left hand exists right now even if it is
    a mere figment of my own imagination and five
    minutes ago never existed.

    As I don't know and can't (at least now) verify whether your left >>>>>>> hand exists or ever existed I can't regard that as a counter-
    example.

    If the belief is not about something real then it is not clear >>>>>>>>> whether it is correct to call it "belief".

    *An axiomatic chain of inference based on this*
    By the theory of simple types I mean the doctrine which says
    that the objects of thought (or, in another interpretation,
    the symbolic expressions) are divided into types, namely:
    individuals, properties of individuals, relations between
    individuals, properties of such relations, etc.

    ...sentences of the form: " a has the property φ ", " b bears >>>>>>>> the relation R to c ", etc. are meaningless, if a, b, c, R, φ >>>>>>>> are not of types fitting together.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_type_theory#G%C3%B6del_1944 >>>>>>>
    The concepts of knowledge and truth are applicable to the knowledge >>>>>>> whether that is what certain peple meant when using those words. >>>>>>> Whether or to what extent that theory can be said to be true is
    another problem.


    The fundamental architectural overview of all Prolog implementations >>>>>> is the same True(x) means X is derived by applying Rules (AKA
    truth preserving operations) to Facts.

    But Prolog can't even handle full first order logic, only basic
    propositions.

    The logic behind Prolog is restricted enough that incompleteness cannot >>>> be differentiated from consistency. It seems that Olcott wants a logic >>>> with that impossibility.

    It is not that incompleteness cannot be differentiated
    from inconsistency it is that the inconsistency of
    self-contradiction has been mistaken for undecidability
    instead of invalid input.

    Of course incompleteness can be differentiated from incosistency.

    Self-contradictory expressions are incorrect deemed to be
    undecidable expressions instead of invalid expressions.

    Is this "actual piece of shit" "a rainbow" or "a car engine"?
    I can't decide, therefore the formal system is incomplete.
    (The correct answer is neither, yet the correct answer is not allowed).

    Except that the statement that Godel used isn't such a thing, just
    beyond your understanding, so you think it is just a "piece of shit"
    when that is actually better a description of your ideas.


    An incosistent theory cannot be incomplete, at least if any ordinary
    logic is used. If you want to use a paraconsistent logic then you
    must be very careful with terms of ordinary logic.

    The basic theory behind Prolog is Horn Clauses, where incompleteness
    cannot be differentiated from consistency. Standard Prolog has features
    that break the logic if used but the terms "incompleteness" and
    "consistency" are only defined for logic, not programming.


    Tarski's Liar Paradox from page 248
       It would then be possible to reconstruct the antinomy of the liar
       in the metalanguage, by forming in the language itself a sentence
       x such that the sentence of the metalanguage which is correlated
       with x asserts that x is not a true sentence.
       https://liarparadox.org/Tarski_247_248.pdf

    Right, "It would then be possible ...", thus the following isn't "an assumption" but an action that has been proven to be constructioable as
    a valid statement in the language, thus something the Truth Predicate
    must answer about to be a Predicate.

    You are just proving you are nothing but a stupid liar, that is so
    stupid, he can't see that he doesn't know what he is talkinga bout.


    Formalized as:
    x ∉ True if and only if p
    where the symbol 'p' represents the whole sentence x https://liarparadox.org/Tarski_247_248.pdf

    "this sentence is not true" is not a truth bearer
    that must be rejected as invalid input and not the
    basis for the undecidability theorem.


    In other words, all logic system of the ability described by Tarski MUST
    be inconsistent.

    Since he PROVED that the statement *WAS* a vaild input for the Truth
    Predicate.

    Something that seems to be beyond your ability to understand because of
    your stupidity.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Wed Sep 11 10:05:02 2024
    On 2024-09-10 13:23:39 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/10/2024 4:26 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-10 02:48:11 +0000, Richard Damon said:

    On 9/9/24 9:14 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/7/2024 8:43 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/7/24 9:28 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/7/2024 3:46 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-06 23:41:16 +0000, Richard Damon said:

    On 9/6/24 8:24 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/6/2024 6:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 12:49:11 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 5:44 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 12:24:38 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/2/2024 3:29 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 12:56:16 +0000, olcott said:

    On 8/31/2024 10:04 PM, olcott wrote:
    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification is sufficient reason to accept the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem


    With a Justified true belief, in the Gettier cases >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the observer does not know enough to know its true >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yet it remains stipulated to be true.

    My original correction to this was a JTB such that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification necessitates the truth of the belief. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    With a [Sufficiently Justified belief], it is stipulated >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the observer does have a sufficient reason to accept >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the truth of the belief.

    What could be a sufficient reason? Every justification of every >>>>>>>>>>>>>> belief involves other belifs that could be false.

    For the justification to be sufficient the consequence of >>>>>>>>>>>>> the belief must be semantically entailed by its justification. >>>>>>>>>>>>
    If the belief is about something real then its justification >>>>>>>>>>>> involves claims about something real. Nothing real is certain. >>>>>>>>>>>>

    I don't think that is correct.
    My left hand exists right now even if it is
    a mere figment of my own imagination and five
    minutes ago never existed.

    As I don't know and can't (at least now) verify whether your left >>>>>>>>>> hand exists or ever existed I can't regard that as a counter- >>>>>>>>>> example.

    If the belief is not about something real then it is not clear >>>>>>>>>>>> whether it is correct to call it "belief".

    *An axiomatic chain of inference based on this*
    By the theory of simple types I mean the doctrine which says >>>>>>>>>>> that the objects of thought (or, in another interpretation, >>>>>>>>>>> the symbolic expressions) are divided into types, namely: >>>>>>>>>>> individuals, properties of individuals, relations between >>>>>>>>>>> individuals, properties of such relations, etc.

    ...sentences of the form: " a has the property φ ", " b bears >>>>>>>>>>> the relation R to c ", etc. are meaningless, if a, b, c, R, φ >>>>>>>>>>> are not of types fitting together.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ History_of_type_theory#G%C3%B6del_1944

    The concepts of knowledge and truth are applicable to the knowledge >>>>>>>>>> whether that is what certain peple meant when using those words. >>>>>>>>>> Whether or to what extent that theory can be said to be true is >>>>>>>>>> another problem.


    The fundamental architectural overview of all Prolog implementations >>>>>>>>> is the same True(x) means X is derived by applying Rules (AKA truth >>>>>>>>> preserving operations) to Facts.

    But Prolog can't even handle full first order logic, only basic propositions.

    The logic behind Prolog is restricted enough that incompleteness cannot >>>>>>> be differentiated from consistency. It seems that Olcott wants a logic >>>>>>> with that impossibility.


    Just the architecture of Prolog Facts and Rules such that
    (a) Facts are expressions stipulated to be true.
    (b) Rules are truth preserving operations.
    (c) Expression x is only true in L when x is derived
         by applying Rules to Facts in L.

    Underlying this is a knowledge ontology inheritance
    hierarchy that is similar to a type hierarchy of an
    simultaneously arbitrary number of orders of logic
    in the same formal system.



    Just shows you are flapping your mouth with gibberish and don't
    actually know what you are talking about.

    I am stipulating how those terms work in my
    adaptation of Prolog you freaking nitwit.


    Then you aren't talking "Prolog", which is a fairly defined language.

    Is and is not. There is the standard Prolog but the name Prolog was already >> in use before the first standard. There are many different variants that
    are not standard conforming but are calloe "Prolog" anyway.

    They all have negation as failure, the key element
    required to reject self-contradictory expressions.

    The not operator of Prolog is not a part of Horn clause system. It is
    not the same as the not operator of ordinary logic. Therefore one nust
    be careful with its use and interpretation.

    You have not defined what you mean with "reject" and how that relates
    to the behaviour of Prolog programs.

    x = "this sentence is not true"
    if ~True(L,x) & ~True(L,~x) "x is rejected as invalid input"

    What connection that has to Prolog?

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Wed Sep 11 10:18:23 2024
    On 2024-09-10 13:32:25 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/10/2024 4:34 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-09 17:38:04 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/7/2024 3:46 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-06 23:41:16 +0000, Richard Damon said:

    On 9/6/24 8:24 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/6/2024 6:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 12:49:11 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 5:44 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 12:24:38 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/2/2024 3:29 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 12:56:16 +0000, olcott said:

    On 8/31/2024 10:04 PM, olcott wrote:
    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases*

    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the
    justification is sufficient reason to accept the
    truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem


    With a Justified true belief, in the Gettier cases
    the observer does not know enough to know its true
    yet it remains stipulated to be true.

    My original correction to this was a JTB such that the >>>>>>>>>>>> justification necessitates the truth of the belief.

    With a [Sufficiently Justified belief], it is stipulated >>>>>>>>>>>> that the observer does have a sufficient reason to accept >>>>>>>>>>>> the truth of the belief.

    What could be a sufficient reason? Every justification of every >>>>>>>>>>> belief involves other belifs that could be false.

    For the justification to be sufficient the consequence of
    the belief must be semantically entailed by its justification. >>>>>>>>>
    If the belief is about something real then its justification >>>>>>>>> involves claims about something real. Nothing real is certain. >>>>>>>>>

    I don't think that is correct.
    My left hand exists right now even if it is
    a mere figment of my own imagination and five
    minutes ago never existed.

    As I don't know and can't (at least now) verify whether your left >>>>>>> hand exists or ever existed I can't regard that as a counter-
    example.

    If the belief is not about something real then it is not clear >>>>>>>>> whether it is correct to call it "belief".

    *An axiomatic chain of inference based on this*
    By the theory of simple types I mean the doctrine which says
    that the objects of thought (or, in another interpretation,
    the symbolic expressions) are divided into types, namely:
    individuals, properties of individuals, relations between
    individuals, properties of such relations, etc.

    ...sentences of the form: " a has the property φ ", " b bears >>>>>>>> the relation R to c ", etc. are meaningless, if a, b, c, R, φ >>>>>>>> are not of types fitting together.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_type_theory#G%C3%B6del_1944 >>>>>>>
    The concepts of knowledge and truth are applicable to the knowledge >>>>>>> whether that is what certain peple meant when using those words. >>>>>>> Whether or to what extent that theory can be said to be true is
    another problem.


    The fundamental architectural overview of all Prolog implementations >>>>>> is the same True(x) means X is derived by applying Rules (AKA truth >>>>>> preserving operations) to Facts.

    But Prolog can't even handle full first order logic, only basic propositions.

    The logic behind Prolog is restricted enough that incompleteness cannot >>>> be differentiated from consistency. It seems that Olcott wants a logic >>>> with that impossibility.

    It is not that incompleteness cannot be differentiated
    from inconsistency it is that the inconsistency of
    self-contradiction has been mistaken for undecidability
    instead of invalid input.

    Of course incompleteness can be differentiated from incosistency.

    Self-contradictory expressions are incorrect deemed to be
    undecidable expressions instead of invalid expressions.

    Invalid expression is a non-expression (i.e., a string that does
    not satisfy the syntax rules of an expression) used as if it were
    an expression.

    Is this "actual piece of shit" "a rainbow" or "a car engine"?
    I can't decide, therefore the formal system is incomplete.
    (The correct answer is neither, yet the correct answer is not allowed).

    Who allows the question but not the correct answer? You?

    An incosistent theory cannot be incomplete, at least if any ordinary
    logic is used. If you want to use a paraconsistent logic then you
    must be very careful with terms of ordinary logic.

    The basic theory behind Prolog is Horn Clauses, where incompleteness
    cannot be differentiated from consistency. Standard Prolog has features
    that break the logic if used but the terms "incompleteness" and
    "consistency" are only defined for logic, not programming.

    Tarski's Liar Paradox from page 248
    It would then be possible to reconstruct the antinomy of the liar
    in the metalanguage, by forming in the language itself a sentence
    x such that the sentence of the metalanguage which is correlated
    with x asserts that x is not a true sentence.
    https://liarparadox.org/Tarski_247_248.pdf

    Formalized as:
    x ∉ True if and only if p
    where the symbol 'p' represents the whole sentence x https://liarparadox.org/Tarski_247_248.pdf

    "this sentence is not true" is not a truth bearer
    that must be rejected as invalid input and not the
    basis for the undecidability theorem.

    The string "this sentence is not true" is not a valid arithmetic sentence
    and therefore not relevant to definability of arithmetic truth. Arithmetic truth is about sentences like

    ∀x ∃a ∃b ∃c (x < a ∧ x < b ∧ x < c ∧ a*a*a + b*b*b = c*c*c).

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Wed Sep 11 20:16:36 2024
    On 9/11/24 8:09 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/10/2024 8:37 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/10/24 9:32 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/10/2024 4:34 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-09 17:38:04 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/7/2024 3:46 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-06 23:41:16 +0000, Richard Damon said:

    On 9/6/24 8:24 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/6/2024 6:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 12:49:11 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 5:44 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 12:24:38 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/2/2024 3:29 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 12:56:16 +0000, olcott said:

    On 8/31/2024 10:04 PM, olcott wrote:
    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification is sufficient reason to accept the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem


    With a Justified true belief, in the Gettier cases >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the observer does not know enough to know its true >>>>>>>>>>>>>> yet it remains stipulated to be true.

    My original correction to this was a JTB such that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification necessitates the truth of the belief. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    With a [Sufficiently Justified belief], it is stipulated >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the observer does have a sufficient reason to accept >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the truth of the belief.

    What could be a sufficient reason? Every justification of >>>>>>>>>>>>> every
    belief involves other belifs that could be false.

    For the justification to be sufficient the consequence of >>>>>>>>>>>> the belief must be semantically entailed by its justification. >>>>>>>>>>>
    If the belief is about something real then its justification >>>>>>>>>>> involves claims about something real. Nothing real is certain. >>>>>>>>>>>

    I don't think that is correct.
    My left hand exists right now even if it is
    a mere figment of my own imagination and five
    minutes ago never existed.

    As I don't know and can't (at least now) verify whether your left >>>>>>>>> hand exists or ever existed I can't regard that as a counter- >>>>>>>>> example.

    If the belief is not about something real then it is not clear >>>>>>>>>>> whether it is correct to call it "belief".

    *An axiomatic chain of inference based on this*
    By the theory of simple types I mean the doctrine which says >>>>>>>>>> that the objects of thought (or, in another interpretation, >>>>>>>>>> the symbolic expressions) are divided into types, namely:
    individuals, properties of individuals, relations between
    individuals, properties of such relations, etc.

    ...sentences of the form: " a has the property φ ", " b bears >>>>>>>>>> the relation R to c ", etc. are meaningless, if a, b, c, R, φ >>>>>>>>>> are not of types fitting together.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
    History_of_type_theory#G%C3%B6del_1944

    The concepts of knowledge and truth are applicable to the
    knowledge
    whether that is what certain peple meant when using those words. >>>>>>>>> Whether or to what extent that theory can be said to be true is >>>>>>>>> another problem.


    The fundamental architectural overview of all Prolog
    implementations
    is the same True(x) means X is derived by applying Rules (AKA
    truth preserving operations) to Facts.

    But Prolog can't even handle full first order logic, only basic
    propositions.

    The logic behind Prolog is restricted enough that incompleteness
    cannot
    be differentiated from consistency. It seems that Olcott wants a
    logic
    with that impossibility.

    It is not that incompleteness cannot be differentiated
    from inconsistency it is that the inconsistency of
    self-contradiction has been mistaken for undecidability
    instead of invalid input.

    Of course incompleteness can be differentiated from incosistency.

    Self-contradictory expressions are incorrect deemed to be
    undecidable expressions instead of invalid expressions.

    Is this "actual piece of shit" "a rainbow" or "a car engine"?
    I can't decide, therefore the formal system is incomplete.
    (The correct answer is neither, yet the correct answer is not allowed).

    Except that the statement that Godel

    I never mentioned Godel stupid.


    But you mentioned "Incompleteness", and he is the one that proved it,
    and NOT with a Self-Contradictory statement.

    So, are you admitting that Godel didn't use a "Self-contradictory"
    statement, and thus you are wrong, or are you admitting that you are
    just wrong for saying you weren't talking about Godel?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Thu Sep 12 11:54:10 2024
    On 2024-09-11 12:14:53 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/11/2024 2:05 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-10 13:23:39 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/10/2024 4:26 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-10 02:48:11 +0000, Richard Damon said:

    On 9/9/24 9:14 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/7/2024 8:43 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/7/24 9:28 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/7/2024 3:46 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-06 23:41:16 +0000, Richard Damon said:

    On 9/6/24 8:24 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/6/2024 6:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 12:49:11 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 5:44 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 12:24:38 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/2/2024 3:29 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 12:56:16 +0000, olcott said:

    On 8/31/2024 10:04 PM, olcott wrote:
    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification is sufficient reason to accept the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    With a Justified true belief, in the Gettier cases >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the observer does not know enough to know its true >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yet it remains stipulated to be true.

    My original correction to this was a JTB such that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification necessitates the truth of the belief. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    With a [Sufficiently Justified belief], it is stipulated >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the observer does have a sufficient reason to accept >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the truth of the belief.

    What could be a sufficient reason? Every justification of every
    belief involves other belifs that could be false. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    For the justification to be sufficient the consequence of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the belief must be semantically entailed by its justification. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    If the belief is about something real then its justification >>>>>>>>>>>>>> involves claims about something real. Nothing real is certain. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    I don't think that is correct.
    My left hand exists right now even if it is
    a mere figment of my own imagination and five
    minutes ago never existed.

    As I don't know and can't (at least now) verify whether your left >>>>>>>>>>>> hand exists or ever existed I can't regard that as a counter- >>>>>>>>>>>> example.

    If the belief is not about something real then it is not clear >>>>>>>>>>>>>> whether it is correct to call it "belief".

    *An axiomatic chain of inference based on this*
    By the theory of simple types I mean the doctrine which says >>>>>>>>>>>>> that the objects of thought (or, in another interpretation, >>>>>>>>>>>>> the symbolic expressions) are divided into types, namely: >>>>>>>>>>>>> individuals, properties of individuals, relations between >>>>>>>>>>>>> individuals, properties of such relations, etc.

    ...sentences of the form: " a has the property φ ", " b bears >>>>>>>>>>>>> the relation R to c ", etc. are meaningless, if a, b, c, R, φ >>>>>>>>>>>>> are not of types fitting together.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ History_of_type_theory#G%C3%B6del_1944

    The concepts of knowledge and truth are applicable to the knowledge
    whether that is what certain peple meant when using those words. >>>>>>>>>>>> Whether or to what extent that theory can be said to be true is >>>>>>>>>>>> another problem.


    The fundamental architectural overview of all Prolog implementations
    is the same True(x) means X is derived by applying Rules (AKA truth >>>>>>>>>>> preserving operations) to Facts.

    But Prolog can't even handle full first order logic, only basic propositions.

    The logic behind Prolog is restricted enough that incompleteness cannot
    be differentiated from consistency. It seems that Olcott wants a logic
    with that impossibility.


    Just the architecture of Prolog Facts and Rules such that
    (a) Facts are expressions stipulated to be true.
    (b) Rules are truth preserving operations.
    (c) Expression x is only true in L when x is derived
         by applying Rules to Facts in L.

    Underlying this is a knowledge ontology inheritance
    hierarchy that is similar to a type hierarchy of an
    simultaneously arbitrary number of orders of logic
    in the same formal system.



    Just shows you are flapping your mouth with gibberish and don't
    actually know what you are talking about.

    I am stipulating how those terms work in my
    adaptation of Prolog you freaking nitwit.


    Then you aren't talking "Prolog", which is a fairly defined language. >>>>
    Is and is not. There is the standard Prolog but the name Prolog was already
    in use before the first standard. There are many different variants that >>>> are not standard conforming but are calloe "Prolog" anyway.

    They all have negation as failure, the key element
    required to reject self-contradictory expressions.

    The not operator of Prolog is not a part of Horn clause system. It is
    not the same as the not operator of ordinary logic. Therefore one nust
    be careful with its use and interpretation.

    You have not defined what you mean with "reject" and how that relates
    to the behaviour of Prolog programs.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negation_as_failure
    The failure to prove X from Facts and Rules
    means that X is untrue yet not necessarily false.

    The failure to prove X or ~X from Facts and Rules
    means that X is untrue and unfalse, thus not a
    truth bearer.

    X may represent a real world claim that is either true or false but
    cannot be determined either way with Prolog rules.

    x = "this sentence is not true"
    if ~True(L,x) & ~True(L,~x) "x is rejected as invalid input"

    What connection that has to Prolog?

    Anyway, you still have not defined what you mean with "reject" and how
    that relates to the behaviour of Prolog programs, and you have not
    answered the last question.

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Thu Sep 12 11:58:29 2024
    On 2024-09-11 12:16:46 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/11/2024 2:18 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-10 13:32:25 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/10/2024 4:34 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-09 17:38:04 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/7/2024 3:46 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-06 23:41:16 +0000, Richard Damon said:

    On 9/6/24 8:24 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/6/2024 6:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 12:49:11 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/3/2024 5:44 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-02 12:24:38 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/2/2024 3:29 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-01 12:56:16 +0000, olcott said:

    On 8/31/2024 10:04 PM, olcott wrote:
    *I just fixed the loophole of the Gettier cases* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    knowledge is a justified true belief such that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification is sufficient reason to accept the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> truth of the belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem


    With a Justified true belief, in the Gettier cases >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the observer does not know enough to know its true >>>>>>>>>>>>>> yet it remains stipulated to be true.

    My original correction to this was a JTB such that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification necessitates the truth of the belief. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    With a [Sufficiently Justified belief], it is stipulated >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the observer does have a sufficient reason to accept >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the truth of the belief.

    What could be a sufficient reason? Every justification of every >>>>>>>>>>>>> belief involves other belifs that could be false.

    For the justification to be sufficient the consequence of >>>>>>>>>>>> the belief must be semantically entailed by its justification. >>>>>>>>>>>
    If the belief is about something real then its justification >>>>>>>>>>> involves claims about something real. Nothing real is certain. >>>>>>>>>>>

    I don't think that is correct.
    My left hand exists right now even if it is
    a mere figment of my own imagination and five
    minutes ago never existed.

    As I don't know and can't (at least now) verify whether your left >>>>>>>>> hand exists or ever existed I can't regard that as a counter- >>>>>>>>> example.

    If the belief is not about something real then it is not clear >>>>>>>>>>> whether it is correct to call it "belief".

    *An axiomatic chain of inference based on this*
    By the theory of simple types I mean the doctrine which says >>>>>>>>>> that the objects of thought (or, in another interpretation, >>>>>>>>>> the symbolic expressions) are divided into types, namely:
    individuals, properties of individuals, relations between
    individuals, properties of such relations, etc.

    ...sentences of the form: " a has the property φ ", " b bears >>>>>>>>>> the relation R to c ", etc. are meaningless, if a, b, c, R, φ >>>>>>>>>> are not of types fitting together.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ History_of_type_theory#G%C3%B6del_1944

    The concepts of knowledge and truth are applicable to the knowledge >>>>>>>>> whether that is what certain peple meant when using those words. >>>>>>>>> Whether or to what extent that theory can be said to be true is >>>>>>>>> another problem.


    The fundamental architectural overview of all Prolog implementations >>>>>>>> is the same True(x) means X is derived by applying Rules (AKA truth >>>>>>>> preserving operations) to Facts.

    But Prolog can't even handle full first order logic, only basic propositions.

    The logic behind Prolog is restricted enough that incompleteness cannot >>>>>> be differentiated from consistency. It seems that Olcott wants a logic >>>>>> with that impossibility.

    It is not that incompleteness cannot be differentiated
    from inconsistency it is that the inconsistency of
    self-contradiction has been mistaken for undecidability
    instead of invalid input.

    Of course incompleteness can be differentiated from incosistency.

    Self-contradictory expressions are incorrect deemed to be
    undecidable expressions instead of invalid expressions.

    Invalid expression is a non-expression (i.e., a string that does
    not satisfy the syntax rules of an expression) used as if it were
    an expression.

    Is this "actual piece of shit" "a rainbow" or "a car engine"?
    I can't decide, therefore the formal system is incomplete.
    (The correct answer is neither, yet the correct answer is not allowed).

    Who allows the question but not the correct answer? You?


    The expressivity of language allows this.

    Depends on the language. The formal language of the first order Peano arithmetic does not allow questions.

    --
    Mikko

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  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Thu Sep 12 21:29:24 2024
    On 9/12/24 9:19 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/12/2024 3:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-11 12:16:46 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/11/2024 2:18 AM, Mikko wrote:

    Who allows the question but not the correct answer? You?


    The expressivity of language allows this.

    Depends on the language. The formal language of the first order Peano
    arithmetic does not allow questions.


    I am always assuming a language that is at least
    as expressive as formalized English.


    Since English isn't a formal language, that isn't very good.

    You are just proving that you don't really understand what you are
    talking about.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Thu Sep 12 21:25:21 2024
    On 9/12/24 9:17 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/12/2024 3:54 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-11 12:14:53 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/11/2024 2:05 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-10 13:23:39 +0000, olcott said:


    They all have negation as failure, the key element
    required to reject self-contradictory expressions.

    The not operator of Prolog is not a part of Horn clause system. It is
    not the same as the not operator of ordinary logic. Therefore one nust >>>> be careful with its use and interpretation.

    You have not defined what you mean with "reject" and how that relates
    to the behaviour of Prolog programs.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negation_as_failure
    The failure to prove X from Facts and Rules
    means that X is untrue yet not necessarily false.

    The failure to prove X or ~X from Facts and Rules
    means that X is untrue and unfalse, thus not a
    truth bearer.

    X may represent a real world claim that is either true or false but
    cannot be determined either way with Prolog rules.


    When a Prolog Fact is specified that cats are animals
    then we can know by Prolog Facts that cats are animals.

    And Prolog can not expresz the sort of statement that Tarski is using.


    x = "this sentence is not true"
    if ~True(L,x) & ~True(L,~x) "x is rejected as invalid input"

    What connection that has to Prolog?

    Anyway, you still have not defined what you mean with "reject" and how
    that relates to the behaviour of Prolog programs, and you have not
    answered the last question.


    I have defined this at least 100 times.

    ?- LP = not(true(LP)).
    LP = not(true(LP)).
    ?- unify_with_occurs_check(LP, not(true(LP))).
    false.

    The last line that returns false rejects LP.


    So? Prolog can't handle Tarski statement. Rememver, REJECTING Tarski's statement is just admitting that your system can't handle the statement,
    as a truth predicate can't reject a statement that is syntactically valid.

    But, then you are too stupid to understand that.

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Fri Sep 13 11:09:14 2024
    On 2024-09-13 01:17:15 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/12/2024 3:54 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-11 12:14:53 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/11/2024 2:05 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-10 13:23:39 +0000, olcott said:


    They all have negation as failure, the key element
    required to reject self-contradictory expressions.

    The not operator of Prolog is not a part of Horn clause system. It is
    not the same as the not operator of ordinary logic. Therefore one nust >>>> be careful with its use and interpretation.

    You have not defined what you mean with "reject" and how that relates
    to the behaviour of Prolog programs.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negation_as_failure
    The failure to prove X from Facts and Rules
    means that X is untrue yet not necessarily false.

    The failure to prove X or ~X from Facts and Rules
    means that X is untrue and unfalse, thus not a
    truth bearer.

    X may represent a real world claim that is either true or false but
    cannot be determined either way with Prolog rules.


    When a Prolog Fact is specified that cats are animals
    then we can know by Prolog Facts that cats are animals.

    We know that even if no Prolog fact about that is specified.

    x = "this sentence is not true
    if ~True(L,x) & ~True(L,~x) "x is rejected as invalid input"

    What connection that has to Prolog?

    Anyway, you still have not defined what you mean with "reject" and how
    that relates to the behaviour of Prolog programs, and you have not
    answered the last question.

    I have defined this at least 100 times.

    As you didn't point to even one such definitions I think you have not.

    ?- LP = not(true(LP)).
    LP = not(true(LP)).
    ?- unify_with_occurs_check(LP, not(true(LP))).
    false.

    The last line that returns false rejects LP.

    No, it does not reject, it just answers the question on the second last line. Another answer about LP is on the third last line and there is no rejection there.

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Fri Sep 13 11:16:02 2024
    On 2024-09-13 01:19:51 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/12/2024 3:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-11 12:16:46 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/11/2024 2:18 AM, Mikko wrote:

    Who allows the question but not the correct answer? You?


    The expressivity of language allows this.

    Depends on the language. The formal language of the first order Peano
    arithmetic does not allow questions.

    I am always assuming a language that is at least
    as expressive as formalized English.

    That does not mean anything without specification of which formalization
    of Enslish. One can say that the procedure division of a COBOL program is fromalized Ensglish but its expressive power is very limited.

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Sat Sep 14 22:09:50 2024
    On 9/14/24 5:26 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/13/2024 3:09 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-13 01:17:15 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/12/2024 3:54 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-11 12:14:53 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/11/2024 2:05 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-10 13:23:39 +0000, olcott said:


    They all have negation as failure, the key element
    required to reject self-contradictory expressions.

    The not operator of Prolog is not a part of Horn clause system. It is >>>>>> not the same as the not operator of ordinary logic. Therefore one
    nust
    be careful with its use and interpretation.

    You have not defined what you mean with "reject" and how that relates >>>>>> to the behaviour of Prolog programs.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negation_as_failure
    The failure to prove X from Facts and Rules
    means that X is untrue yet not necessarily false.

    The failure to prove X or ~X from Facts and Rules
    means that X is untrue and unfalse, thus not a
    truth bearer.

    X may represent a real world claim that is either true or false but
    cannot be determined either way with Prolog rules.


    When a Prolog Fact is specified that cats are animals
    then we can know by Prolog Facts that cats are animals.

    We know that even if no Prolog fact about that is specified.


    Not one single being in the universe understood
    that "cats are animals" was anything but pure gibberish
    until this was specified.

    Nope, because you don't understand how linguistics were developed.

    Sorry, you are just proving your stupidity.

    The words had there meaning long before "logic" was invented.


    Prolog is like a 100% empty mind until we tell it
    some facts it literally knows nothing.

    When we tell it "cats are animals" is a fact it knows
    literally nothing else.

    The entire verbal model of the actual world is built
    this same way.

    "The Earth is spherical" makes exactly as much sense
    as "dgfjlok ergkoi rti932rm 45 njedfww" until specified
    otherwise.

    Right, but is a LIE, as the Earth isn't "Sphreical", only "Spheroid" or
    to be more correct an Oblate Spheroid.

    Of course, you don't understand that distinction, because you don't
    understand that when talking about the physical universe, "Truth" in the logical sense doesn't actually fully apply, but only approximation models.


    x = "this sentence is not true
    if ~True(L,x) & ~True(L,~x) "x is rejected as invalid input"

    What connection that has to Prolog?

    Anyway, you still have not defined what you mean with "reject" and how >>>> that relates to the behaviour of Prolog programs, and you have not
    answered the last question.

    I have defined this at least 100 times.

    As you didn't point to even one such definitions I think you have not.

    ?- LP = not(true(LP)).
    LP = not(true(LP)).
    ?- unify_with_occurs_check(LP, not(true(LP))).
    false.

    The last line that returns false rejects LP.

    No, it does not reject, it just answers the question on the second
    last line.
    Another answer about LP is on the third last line and there is no
    rejection
    there.




    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Sat Sep 14 22:10:52 2024
    On 9/14/24 5:28 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/13/2024 3:16 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-13 01:19:51 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/12/2024 3:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-11 12:16:46 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/11/2024 2:18 AM, Mikko wrote:

    Who allows the question but not the correct answer? You?


    The expressivity of language allows this.

    Depends on the language. The formal language of the first order Peano
    arithmetic does not allow questions.

    I am always assuming a language that is at least
    as expressive as formalized English.

    That does not mean anything without specification of which formalization
    of Enslish.

    WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU ASSUME THAT I DON'T MEAN ALL OF IT?

    Obviously, you don't understand the question, because you don't
    understand the problem.

    There isn't an "All" that can apply.


    One can say that the procedure division of a COBOL program is
    fromalized Ensglish but its expressive power is very limited.




    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to Richard Damon on Sun Sep 15 12:01:25 2024
    On 2024-09-15 02:09:50 +0000, Richard Damon said:

    On 9/14/24 5:26 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/13/2024 3:09 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-13 01:17:15 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/12/2024 3:54 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-11 12:14:53 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/11/2024 2:05 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-10 13:23:39 +0000, olcott said:


    They all have negation as failure, the key element
    required to reject self-contradictory expressions.

    The not operator of Prolog is not a part of Horn clause system. It is >>>>>>> not the same as the not operator of ordinary logic. Therefore one nust >>>>>>> be careful with its use and interpretation.

    You have not defined what you mean with "reject" and how that relates >>>>>>> to the behaviour of Prolog programs.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negation_as_failure
    The failure to prove X from Facts and Rules
    means that X is untrue yet not necessarily false.

    The failure to prove X or ~X from Facts and Rules
    means that X is untrue and unfalse, thus not a
    truth bearer.

    X may represent a real world claim that is either true or false but
    cannot be determined either way with Prolog rules.


    When a Prolog Fact is specified that cats are animals
    then we can know by Prolog Facts that cats are animals.

    We know that even if no Prolog fact about that is specified.


    Not one single being in the universe understood
    that "cats are animals" was anything but pure gibberish
    until this was specified.

    Nope, because you don't understand how linguistics were developed.

    Sorry, you are just proving your stupidity.

    The words had there meaning long before "logic" was invented.

    Logic was invented before "cat" and "animal" had meaning in the
    same language.

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Sun Sep 15 12:02:56 2024
    On 2024-09-14 21:28:53 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/13/2024 3:16 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-13 01:19:51 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/12/2024 3:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-11 12:16:46 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/11/2024 2:18 AM, Mikko wrote:

    Who allows the question but not the correct answer? You?


    The expressivity of language allows this.

    Depends on the language. The formal language of the first order Peano
    arithmetic does not allow questions.

    I am always assuming a language that is at least
    as expressive as formalized English.

    That does not mean anything without specification of which formalization
    of Enslish.

    WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU ASSUME THAT I DON'T MEAN ALL OF IT?

    It does not matter what you mean as long as you don't tell anybody else.

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Sun Sep 15 11:59:29 2024
    On 2024-09-14 21:26:42 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/13/2024 3:09 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-13 01:17:15 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/12/2024 3:54 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-11 12:14:53 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/11/2024 2:05 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-10 13:23:39 +0000, olcott said:


    They all have negation as failure, the key element
    required to reject self-contradictory expressions.

    The not operator of Prolog is not a part of Horn clause system. It is >>>>>> not the same as the not operator of ordinary logic. Therefore one nust >>>>>> be careful with its use and interpretation.

    You have not defined what you mean with "reject" and how that relates >>>>>> to the behaviour of Prolog programs.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negation_as_failure
    The failure to prove X from Facts and Rules
    means that X is untrue yet not necessarily false.

    The failure to prove X or ~X from Facts and Rules
    means that X is untrue and unfalse, thus not a
    truth bearer.

    X may represent a real world claim that is either true or false but
    cannot be determined either way with Prolog rules.


    When a Prolog Fact is specified that cats are animals
    then we can know by Prolog Facts that cats are animals.

    We know that even if no Prolog fact about that is specified.

    Not one single being in the universe understood
    that "cats are animals" was anything but pure gibberish
    until this was specified.

    That was well understood long before there was any Prolog.
    Even before "cat" and "animal" were words in the same language
    similar relations were understood but expressed with other
    words.

    Prolog is like a 100% empty mind until we tell it
    some facts it literally knows nothing.

    When we tell it "cats are animals" is a fact it knows
    literally nothing else.

    The entire verbal model of the actual world is built
    this same way.

    It is not a model of the actual world unless the words are related
    to the actual world.

    "The Earth is spherical" makes exactly as much sense
    as "dgfjlok ergkoi rti932rm 45 njedfww" until specified
    otherwise.

    The meanings of the words "Earth" and "spherical" come from tradition,
    not from specifications. Specifications may override the meanings
    for some purposes (in which case "The Earth is spherical" can be false
    as the Earth is not exactly spherical).

    --
    Mikko

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)