• Re: Replacement of Cardinality (infinite middle)

    From Jim Burns@21:1/5 to Ross Finlayson on Fri Aug 9 00:01:45 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    On 8/8/2024 8:26 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 08/08/2024 03:30 AM, FromTheRafters wrote:
    on 8/8/2024, WM supposed :
    Le 08/08/2024 à 00:17, Moebius a écrit :

    Actually, his "thinking process" is simple:
    "Since there is a gap (space) between
    adjacent unit fractions and
    all unit fractions are in the interval (0, 1],
    there must be FINITELY MANY of them
    (i.e. a first/smallest one)."

    No, that is nonsense.
    There are not finitely many unit fractions.

    Then stop assuming that
    there is a first and last element.

    Of course, you can start with a first and last element,
    then make infinitely-many in the middle.

    0 ... ( ... infinitely-many ... ) ... infinity

    ⎛ A finite order is trichotomous and
    ⎜ each non.{} subset is two.ended.

    ⎜ An infinite order is trichotomous and
    ⎜ at least one subset is one. or zero.ended

    ⎝ No set has both a finite and an infinite order.

    An infinite set might or might not have a first element.
    What an infinite set MUST have is SOME non.{} SUBSET
    without a first or without a last,
    but that subset need not be the whole set.

    A set which MUST have a first element in any order
    is a finite set.

    WM doesn't seem to know what he agrees to
    when he agrees that
    there are infinitely.many unit.fractions
    and then argues as though
    there are finitely.many unit.fractions
    (because logicᵂᴹ).

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  • From Moebius@21:1/5 to All on Sat Aug 10 00:31:26 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    Am 09.08.2024 um 06:01 schrieb Jim Burns:
    On 8/8/2024 8:26 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 08/08/2024 03:30 AM, FromTheRafters wrote:
    on 8/8/2024, WM supposed :
    Le 08/08/2024 à 00:17, Moebius a écrit :

    Actually, his "thinking process" is simple:
    "Since there is a gap (space) between
    adjacent unit fractions and
    all unit fractions are in the interval (0, 1],
    there must be FINITELY MANY of them
    (i.e. a first/smallest one)."

    No, that is nonsense.
    There are not finitely many unit fractions

    Great, so there are infinitely many unit fractions in (0, 1]. Right.

    But then for each and every x > 0 there are INFINITELY MANY unit
    fractions smaller than x, SINCE there are ONLY FINITELY MANY unit
    fractins >= x.

    @WM: oo - n = oo (for each and every n e IN).

    Kapierst Du wenigstens DAS, Mückenheim?

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  • From Jim Burns@21:1/5 to Ross Finlayson on Sat Aug 10 14:02:14 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    On 8/9/2024 3:17 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 08/09/2024 03:25 AM, FromTheRafters wrote:
    Ross Finlayson explained :
    On 08/08/2024 03:30 AM, FromTheRafters wrote:
    on 8/8/2024, WM supposed :

    There are not finitely many unit fractions.

    Then stop assuming that
    there is a first and last element.

    Of course, you can start with a first and last element,
    then make infinitely-many in the middle.
    0 ... ( ... infinitely-many ... ) ... infinity

    Sometimes you are as bad as he is. :)

    Or, where do you think you're counting, to?

    Not to infinity.
    Whatever one counts to is not infinity.
    That one can count to it means it is not infinity.

    Consider
    0, 1, 2, 3, ..., ℬ-3, ℬ-2, ℬ-1, ℬ

    There are two cases to consider.

    1.
    There is a split
    {0,1,2,3,...} ᵉᵃᶜʰ<ᵉᵃᶜʰ {...,ℬ-3,ℬ-2,ℬ-1,ℬ}
    without any α in {0,1,2,3,...}
    with α+1 in {...,ℬ-3,ℬ-2,ℬ-1,ℬ}
    and
    you can't count
    from {0,1,2,3,...} to {...,ℬ-3,ℬ-2,ℬ-1,ℬ}

    2.
    Not 1.
    There is no split
    {0,1,2,3,...} ᵉᵃᶜʰ<ᵉᵃᶜʰ {...,ℬ-3,ℬ-2,ℬ-1,ℬ}
    without any α in {0,1,2,3,...}
    with α+1 in {...,ℬ-3,ℬ-2,ℬ-1,ℬ}
    and
    ℬ is finite.

    Finite.
    Not "it will take until the stars die to express".

    "Finite", in its purposeful indefiniteness,
    encompasses "until the stars die"
    and more, some of which make that look small.

    Then, drawing the ends apart with infinite in the middle,
    has a little extra work and book-keeping to begin
    instead of a usual "next",
    yet it well expresses any matters of the "bounded",
    for example, in any matters of the "unbounded".

    Non.{} set C is bounded by
    non.0 ordinal k
    which has last.before k-1 and
    which each non.0 j < k has j-1

    Set C must have least.upper.C.bound m
    m-1 not.upper.C.bound
    least.upper.C.bound m in C
    max.C m

    C is two.ended and
    each non.{} subset of C, also bounded,
    is two.ended.

    Non.{} set C, bounded by
    non.0 ordinal k
    which has last.before k-1 and
    which each non.0 j < k has j-1
    is finite.

    0, 1, 2, 3, ..., ℬ-3, ℬ-2, ℬ-1, ℬ
    with the ends drawn apart and infinity in the middle
    fails at having last.before somewhere,
    otherwise, there isn't infinity in the middle.

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  • From Moebius@21:1/5 to All on Sat Aug 10 21:46:54 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    Am 10.08.2024 um 20:02 schrieb Jim Burns:
    On 8/9/2024 3:17 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:

    Or, where do you think you're counting, to?

    Not to infinity. Whatever one counts to is not infinity.
    Well, except you are Chuck Norris.

    Remember, Chuck Norris counted to infinity - twice!

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  • From Jim Burns@21:1/5 to Moebius on Sat Aug 10 17:22:50 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    On 8/10/2024 3:46 PM, Moebius wrote:
    Am 10.08.2024 um 20:02 schrieb Jim Burns:
    On 8/9/2024 3:17 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:

    Or, where do you think you're counting, to?

    Not to infinity. Whatever one counts to is not infinity.

    Well, except you are Chuck Norris.

    Remember, Chuck Norris counted to infinity - twice!

    I'm using ZFC-Norris

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  • From Moebius@21:1/5 to All on Sat Aug 10 23:24:24 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    Am 10.08.2024 um 23:22 schrieb Jim Burns:
    On 8/10/2024 3:46 PM, Moebius wrote:
    Am 10.08.2024 um 20:02 schrieb Jim Burns:
    On 8/9/2024 3:17 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:

    Or, where do you think you're counting, to?

    Not to infinity. Whatever one counts to is not infinity.

    Well, except you are Chuck Norris.

    Remember, Chuck Norris counted to infinity - twice!

    I'm using ZFC-Norris

    I see. What a pitty!

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  • From Moebius@21:1/5 to All on Sat Aug 10 23:33:26 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    Am 10.08.2024 um 23:24 schrieb Moebius:
    Am 10.08.2024 um 23:22 schrieb Jim Burns:
    On 8/10/2024 3:46 PM, Moebius wrote:
    Am 10.08.2024 um 20:02 schrieb Jim Burns:
    On 8/9/2024 3:17 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:

    Or, where do you think you're counting, to?

    Not to infinity. Whatever one counts to is not infinity.

    Well, except you are Chuck Norris.

    Remember, Chuck Norris counted to infinity - twice!

    I'm using ZFC-Norris

    I see. What a pitty!

    For Chuck Norris it's a simple (super) task. At t = 0 he counts 1, at t
    = 1/2 he counts 2, at t = 1/4 he counts 3, etc. (ad infinitum). At t = 1
    he counts omega! You see: Hence he counted to infinity! (After all,
    omega is the smallest _infinite_ ordinal number!)

    Yeah, ZFC is a too restricted framework for doing REAL math! Bah.

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  • From Moebius@21:1/5 to All on Sat Aug 10 23:44:55 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    Am 10.08.2024 um 23:33 schrieb Moebius:
    Am 10.08.2024 um 23:24 schrieb Moebius:
    Am 10.08.2024 um 23:22 schrieb Jim Burns:
    On 8/10/2024 3:46 PM, Moebius wrote:
    Am 10.08.2024 um 20:02 schrieb Jim Burns:
    On 8/9/2024 3:17 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:

    Or, where do you think you're counting, to?

    Not to infinity. Whatever one counts to is not infinity.

    Well, except you are Chuck Norris.

    Remember, Chuck Norris counted to infinity - twice!

    I'm using ZFC-Norris

    I see. What a pitty!

    For Chuck Norris it's a simple (super) task. At t = 0 he counts 1, at t
    = 1/2 he counts 2, at t = 1/4 he counts 3, etc. (ad infinitum). At t = 1
    he counts omega! You see: Hence he counted to infinity! (After all,
    omega is the smallest _infinite_ ordinal number!)

    Of course, being Chuck Norris, Chuck has an infinitely large memory.

    So when he has counted to 1 (at t = 0), he knows (since it is stored in
    his memory) that he has counted 1. When he has counted to 2 (at t =
    1/2), he knows (since it is stored in his memory) that he has counted 1
    and 2, etc. (ad infinitum). When he has counted to omega (at t = 1) he
    knows (since it is stored in his memory) that he has counted 1, 2, 3,
    ... and omega (since it is stored in his memory). Easy thing for Chuck
    Norris.

    Actually, he has done it twice.

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  • From Jim Burns@21:1/5 to Ross Finlayson on Sat Aug 10 18:14:21 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    On 8/10/2024 3:48 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 08/10/2024 11:02 AM, Jim Burns wrote:
    On 8/9/2024 3:17 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 08/09/2024 03:25 AM, FromTheRafters wrote:
    Ross Finlayson explained :
    On 08/08/2024 03:30 AM, FromTheRafters wrote:
    on 8/8/2024, WM supposed :

    There are not finitely many unit fractions.

    Then stop assuming that
    there is a first and last element.

    Of course, you can start with a first and last element,
    then make infinitely-many in the middle.
    0 ... ( ... infinitely-many ... ) ... infinity

    Sometimes you are as bad as he is. :)

    Or, where do you think you're counting, to?

    Not to infinity.
    Whatever one counts to is not infinity.
    That one can count to it means it is not infinity.

    Consider
    0, 1, 2, 3, ..., ℬ-3, ℬ-2, ℬ-1, ℬ

    There are two cases to consider.

    1.
    There is a split
    {0,1,2,3,...} ᵉᵃᶜʰ<ᵉᵃᶜʰ {...,ℬ-3,ℬ-2,ℬ-1,ℬ}
    without any α in {0,1,2,3,...}
    with α+1 in {...,ℬ-3,ℬ-2,ℬ-1,ℬ}
    and
    you can't count
    from {0,1,2,3,...} to {...,ℬ-3,ℬ-2,ℬ-1,ℬ}

    2.
    Not 1.
    There is no split
    {0,1,2,3,...} ᵉᵃᶜʰ<ᵉᵃᶜʰ {...,ℬ-3,ℬ-2,ℬ-1,ℬ}
    without any α in {0,1,2,3,...}
    with α+1 in {...,ℬ-3,ℬ-2,ℬ-1,ℬ}
    and
    ℬ is finite.

    Finite.
    Not "it will take until the stars die to express".

    "Finite", in its purposeful indefiniteness,
    encompasses "until the stars die"
    and more, some of which make that look small.

    Then, drawing the ends apart with infinite in the middle,
    has a little extra work and book-keeping to begin
    instead of a usual "next",
    yet it well expresses any matters of the "bounded",
    for example, in any matters of the "unbounded".

    Non.{} set C is bounded by
      non.0 ordinal k
      which has last.before k-1 and
      which each non.0 j < k has j-1

    Set C must have least.upper.C.bound m
    m-1 not.upper.C.bound
    least.upper.C.bound m in C
    max.C m

    C is two.ended and
      each non.{} subset of C, also bounded,
      is two.ended.

    Non.{} set C, bounded by
      non.0 ordinal k
      which has last.before k-1 and
      which each non.0 j < k has j-1
    is finite.

    0, 1, 2, 3, ..., ℬ-3, ℬ-2, ℬ-1, ℬ
    with the ends drawn apart and infinity in the middle
    fails at having last.before somewhere,
    otherwise, there isn't infinity in the middle.

    So, do the rationals fill out?

    I don't know what you mean.

    The rationals exist,
    as much as any abstraction exists,
    as much as √2 exists, as much as WmS (18)
    "Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?"
    exists.

    ⎛ Nor shall death brag thou wander’st in his shade,
    ⎜ When in eternal lines to time thou grow’st:
    ⎜ So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
    ⎝ So long lives this, and this gives life to thee.

    When I say

    Consider
    0, 1, 2, 3, ..., ℬ-3, ℬ-2, ℬ-1, ℬ

    I'm not talking about rationals.

    Is this another instance in which it's wrongᴿꟳ
    to not.talk about what I'm not talking about?

    Then, drawing the ends apart with infinite in the middle,
    has a little extra work and book-keeping to begin
    instead of a usual "next",
    yet it well expresses any matters of the "bounded",
    for example, in any matters of the "unbounded".

    For finite ordinals,
    "bounded" implies "finite".

    That's a theorem, when we define "finite ordinal" as
    "ordinal β with β-1 and α<β with α-1, except 0"
    I thought it's a nice connection between
    "bounded" and "finite". YMMV.

    For other things, less of a connection.
    Specifically, for rationals,
    finite and infinite sets are bounded.
    No finite sets are unbounded.

    ----
    Maybe rationals fill out the ordinals. Maybe not.
    What are you asking?

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  • From Moebius@21:1/5 to All on Sun Aug 11 00:43:36 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    Am 11.08.2024 um 00:32 schrieb Chris M. Thomasson:
    On 8/8/2024 5:26 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:

    0 ... ( ... infinitely-many ... ) ... infinity

    Sure. Think of two points, and draw a line between them.

    It's hard to conceive a "continuous" line between 0 and omega. :-P

    Hint: Of course we may "imagine" the real line:

    |-----|-----|-----|-----|--..
    0 1 2 3 4

    But omega is not a point on this line. :-P

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  • From Moebius@21:1/5 to All on Sun Aug 11 00:54:46 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    Am 11.08.2024 um 00:47 schrieb Chris M. Thomasson:
    On 8/10/2024 3:43 PM, Moebius wrote:

    Hint: Let's "consider" the real line:

    |-----|-----|-----|-----|--..
    0     1     2     3     4

    [Now] omega is not a point on this line. :-P

    "Out of scope", perhaps? Is that okay?

    Somehow. :-P

    I guess, JB would say: "If we don't consider omega, we don't consider
    omega." :-P

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  • From Moebius@21:1/5 to All on Sun Aug 11 01:05:16 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    Am 11.08.2024 um 00:47 schrieb Chris M. Thomasson:
    On 8/10/2024 3:43 PM, Moebius wrote:

    Hint: Let's "consider" the real line:

    ...|-----|-----|-----|-----|--..
    0     1     2     3     4

    [Now] omega is not a point on this line. :-P

    "Out of scope", perhaps? Is that okay?

    Somehow. :-P

    I guess, JB would say: "If we don't consider omega, we don't consider
    omega." :-P

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  • From Moebius@21:1/5 to All on Sun Aug 11 01:37:24 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    Am 11.08.2024 um 00:32 schrieb Chris M. Thomasson:
    On 8/8/2024 5:26 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:

    0 ... ( ... infinitely-many ... ) ... infinity

    Sure. Think of two points, and draw a line between them.

    It's hard to conceive a "continuous" line between 0 and omega. :-P

    Hint: Of course we may "imagine" the real line:

    ...|-----|-----|-----|-----|--..
    0 1 2 3 4

    But omega is not a point on this line. :-P

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  • From Moebius@21:1/5 to All on Sun Aug 11 03:19:21 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    Am 11.08.2024 um 02:55 schrieb Chris M. Thomasson:
    On 8/10/2024 4:05 PM, Moebius wrote:

    I guess, JB would say: "If we don't consider omega, we don't consider
    omega." :-P

    For some reason I am thinking of salad here...? ;^)

    You won't agree? :-)

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  • From Moebius@21:1/5 to All on Sun Aug 11 18:10:15 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    Am 11.08.2024 um 06:20 schrieb Chris M. Thomasson:
    On 8/10/2024 6:19 PM, Moebius wrote:
    Am 11.08.2024 um 02:55 schrieb Chris M. Thomasson:
    On 8/10/2024 4:05 PM, Moebius wrote:

    I guess, JB would say: "If we don't consider omega, we don't
    consider omega." :-P

    For some reason I am thinking of salad here...? ;^)

    You won't agree? :-)

    I can see a line, comprised of two n-ary points. They have a p0 and a
    p1, yet there is an infinity between then. [etc. etc.]

    And where do you see omega on that line? (Very ... VERY ... far away?)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvQ6dasK614

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  • From Jim Burns@21:1/5 to Moebius on Sun Aug 11 14:30:51 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    On 8/10/2024 7:05 PM, Moebius wrote:
    Am 11.08.2024 um 00:47 schrieb Chris M. Thomasson:
    On 8/10/2024 3:43 PM, Moebius wrote:

    Hint: Let's "consider" the real line:

    ...|-----|-----|-----|-----|--..
       0     1     2     3     4

    [Now] omega is not a point on this line. :-P

    "Out of scope", perhaps? Is that okay?

    Somehow. :-P

    I guess, JB would say:
    "If we don't consider omega,
    we don't consider omega."
    :-P

    I think I can make a good case for that.

    ----
    I propose that
    each split F,H of the line is situated in the line
    == the line has a point last.in.F or first.in.H

    It follows that
    each positive point is separated from 0
    by some finite /n
    otherwise, contradiction follows.

    If each positive point has a reciprocal,
    then each point has a finite reciprocal,
    and no point is ω

    ----
    Georg Cantor did not get up one morning and ask,
    "How can I piss off Wolfgang Mückenheim decades from now?"

    We often have reasons for things being how they are,
    the weirder they seem, the better the reasons,
    because, no, those who made it that way
    are not actually trying to piss you off.
    They have (had) better things to do.

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  • From Moebius@21:1/5 to All on Sun Aug 11 22:21:28 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    Am 11.08.2024 um 21:29 schrieb Chris M. Thomasson:
    On 8/11/2024 9:10 AM, Moebius wrote:
    Am 11.08.2024 um 06:20 schrieb Chris M. Thomasson:
    On 8/10/2024 6:19 PM, Moebius wrote:
    Am 11.08.2024 um 02:55 schrieb Chris M. Thomasson:
    On 8/10/2024 4:05 PM, Moebius wrote:

    I guess, JB would say: "If we don't consider omega, we don't
    consider omega." :-P

    For some reason I am thinking of salad here...? ;^)

    You won't agree? :-)

    I can see a line, comprised of two n-ary points. They have a p0 and a
    p1, yet there is an infinity between then. [etc. etc.]

    And where do you see omega on that line? (Very ... VERY ... far away?)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvQ6dasK614

    I guess its basically "out of scope" in a sense?

    Yeah, but "just not there" might be more appropriate.

    You see: "If we don't consider omega, we don't consider omega."

    Let me try to explain. If we consider the interval [0, 1] of real numbers:

    |-----------------|
    0 1

    then 2 is not on this line segment: it's just not there. :-)

    But the case with omega is worse:

    It's not on the real line at all. omega !e IR.

    On the other hand we *may* extend the "real number line".

    See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_real_number_line

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  • From Jim Burns@21:1/5 to Ross Finlayson on Sun Aug 11 17:38:39 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    On 8/11/2024 2:10 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 08/11/2024 09:10 AM, Moebius wrote:

    [...]

    How do you see omega
    as the second constant after empty set
    an inductive set in ZF?
    It's definitely not "all" infinity.

    ω is defined to be (the set of) all finite ordinals.
    In that sense, ω is all of finiteness.

    ω is followed by all the transfinite ordinals.
    In that sense, ω is not all of infinity.
    Nearly none of it, really.

    ----
    U and V are inductive sets.

    ⋂{ind:U} is the intersection of inductive U.subsets.
    ⋂{ind:U} is inductive.
    for each inductive A ⊆ U: ⋂{ind:U} ⊆ A ⊆ U

    ⋂{ind:V} is the intersection of inductive V.subsets.
    ⋂{ind:V} is inductive.
    for each inductive B ⊆ V: ⋂{ind:V} ⊆ B ⊆ V

    In particular, U∩V is an inductive U.subset and V.subset.

    As an inductive V.subset,
    ⋂{ind:V} ⊆ U∩V ⊆ V

    As an inductive U.subset,
    ⋂{ind:U} ⊆ ⋂{ind:V} ⊆ U∩V ⊆ U

    ⋂{ind:U} ⊆ ⋂{ind:V}
    Similarly,
    ⋂{ind:V} ⊆ ⋂{ind:U}
    ⋂{ind:U} = ⋂{ind:V}

    ⋂{ind:U} = ⋂{ind:V} := ⋂{ind}
    the unique intersection of inductive subsets.

    ----
    {fin} is the set of finite ordinals.
    ⋂{ind} is the intersection of inductive subsets.

    There is no first finite.ordinal ∉ ⋂{ind}
    There is no finite ordinal ∉ ⋂{ind}
    {fin} ⊆ ⋂{ind}

    Each inductive set ⊇ ⋂{ind}
    {fin} is inductive.
    {fin} ⊇ ⋂{ind}

    {fin} ⊆ ⋂{ind}
    {fin} ⊇ ⋂{ind}
    {fin} = ⋂{ind} := ω

    How do you see omega

    ω is the set of all finite ordinals and is,
    for each inductive set,
    the intersection of inductive subsets.

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  • From Moebius@21:1/5 to All on Mon Aug 12 02:08:29 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    Am 11.08.2024 um 23:38 schrieb Jim Burns:
    On 8/11/2024 2:10 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:

    How do you see omega

    ω is [...] is for each inductive set,
    the intersection of inductive subsets.

    Indeed! See Halmos' "Naive Set Theory".

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Burns@21:1/5 to Ross Finlayson on Mon Aug 12 00:44:02 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    On 8/11/2024 7:39 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 08/11/2024 02:38 PM, Jim Burns wrote:

    [...]

    Starting with a theory _without_
    the constant introduced named omega,
    i.e., finite sets,

    If you're referring to a theory of only finite sets,
    let us say, a theory of
    von Neumann's V[ω] the hereditarily finite sets,
    it literally can't say anything about ω

    On the other hand,
    here's St+PQ which can talk about ω
    It has two kinds of existential claims.
    Boolos's ST
    ⎛ ∃{}
    ⎜ ∀x∀y∃z=x∪{y}
    ⎝ and extensionality
    with pluralities of sets
    ⎛ ∃∃xx={z:P(z)}: ∀y: y ∈ {z:P(z)} ⇔ P(y)
    ⎝ and extensionality

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_set_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plural_quantification

    For P(z), use a description 𝕆ᶠⁱⁿ(z) of a finite ordinal,
    and ω := {z:𝕆ᶠⁱⁿ(z)} exists

    For example, use
    𝕆ᶠⁱⁿ(z) ⇔
    (z ∋ {} ∧ ∀y ∈ z+1: y≠{} ⇒ ∃x∈z: x+1=y)
    ∨ (z = {})

    z+1 = z∪{z}

    given that there's axiomatized well-foundedness
    when otherwise
    simple comprehension would make the "omega" into
    an extra-ordinary or non-well-founded or
    inconsistent-multiplicity of a set,
    starting _without_ omega,
    the finite sets like ordinals, are, exactly
    those sets that don't contain themselves.

    Above, ST+PQ has not axiomatized well.foundedness.
    There are no axioms at all saying which sets DON'T exist.

    ω is what ω is, and what ω is isn't
    non.well.founded or inconsistent.multiplicity.

    An ordinal is
    a well.founded transitive set of transitive sets.
    It's well.foundedness is accomplished by
    being {} or holding {}

    Things which aren't well.founded aren't ω

    The finite sets like ordinals don't contain themselves.
    They aren't _exactly_
    those sets that don't contain themselves
    because
    some sets that don't contain themselves
    aren't ordinals.

    Then, omega, as you've defined it,

    ω := {z:𝕆ᶠⁱⁿ(z)}

    contains itself,

    ω doesn't contain itself.
    Moreover,
    anything which contains itself isn't an ordinal.

    again just quantifying over
    the specification of what omega purports to be,

    ω isn't anything other than "what ω purports to be"
    That's how definitions work.
    ω might not exist.
    ω doesn't exist in V[ω], but
    neither is ω anything else in V[ω]

    I'm curious, now that you have
    a beginning and an end of
    the finite, or 0 and omega in ZF,

    ω is the least.upper.bound of the finites.
    ω is not a finite.
    ω is not the upper.end of the finites.
    The upper.end of the finites doesn't exist.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Burns@21:1/5 to Ross Finlayson on Mon Aug 12 12:39:16 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    On 8/11/2024 2:39 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 08/11/2024 11:30 AM, Jim Burns wrote:

    Do you think that would aggravate him as much as that
    the Continuum Hypothesis being broken both ways
    put him in the madhouse?

    The Continuum Hypothesis is not broken.

    Getting an answer not.wanted or
    not.getting an answer wanted
    does not break anything.

    Acceptance of
    getting an answer not.wanted or
    not.getting an answer wanted
    is fealty to truth.

    The opposite is the opposite,
    which is broken, and which breaks.

    Continuum Hypothesis CH.
    There is no set whose cardinality is strictly between
    that of the integers and the real numbers.

    1940.
    Kurt Gödel shows ZFC cannot prove CH false.

    1963.
    Paul Cohen shows ZFC cannot prove CH true.

    1878.
    Georg Cantor proposes CH.

    Cantor believed the continuum hypothesis to be true
    and tried for many years to prove it, in vain.
    His inability to prove the continuum hypothesis
    caused him considerable anxiety.

    1918.
    Cantor dies.

    Do you think that would aggravate him as much as that
    the Continuum Hypothesis being broken both ways
    put him in the madhouse?

    Time does not work in the way in which you suggest.
    Gödel's and Cohen's work did not
    put Cantor in the madhouse.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Moebius@21:1/5 to All on Mon Aug 12 19:22:03 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    Am 12.08.2024 um 18:39 schrieb Jim Burns:

    Cantor believed the continuum hypothesis to be true
    and tried for many years to prove it, in vain.

    Yeah, though today we are ably to "understand" (to a certain extend, it
    seems) the (possibe) reasons fo t/his inability.

    But the question is by no means settled.

    See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_hypothesis#Arguments_for_and_against_the_continuum_hypothesis

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeff Barnett@21:1/5 to Moebius on Mon Aug 12 12:37:14 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    On 8/12/2024 11:22 AM, Moebius wrote:
    Am 12.08.2024 um 18:39 schrieb Jim Burns:

    Cantor believed the continuum hypothesis to be true
    and tried for many years to prove it, in vain.

    Yeah, though today we are ably to "understand" (to a certain extend, it seems) the (possibe) reasons fo t/his inability.

    But the question is by no means settled.

    See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_hypothesis#Arguments_for_and_against_the_continuum_hypothesis

    It will never be more settled than it is today. In ZF and it's variants
    you can take it or leave it as you probably well know. And it isn't
    going to be more settled than that.
    --
    Jeff Barnett

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Moebius@21:1/5 to All on Mon Aug 12 20:48:35 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    Am 12.08.2024 um 20:37 schrieb Jeff Barnett:
    On 8/12/2024 11:22 AM, Moebius wrote:
    Am 12.08.2024 um 18:39 schrieb Jim Burns:

    Cantor believed the continuum hypothesis to be true
    and tried for many years to prove it, in vain.

    Yeah, though today we are ably to "understand" (to a certain extend,
    it seems) the (possibe) reasons fo t/his inability.

    But the question is by no means settled.

    See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
    Continuum_hypothesis#Arguments_for_and_against_the_continuum_hypothesis

    It will never be more settled than it is today. In ZF and it's variants
    you can take it or leave it as you probably well know. And it isn't
    going to be more settled than that.

    So you didn't follow the link? What a pitty. (->ignorance)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Moebius@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 13 01:11:03 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    Am 13.08.2024 um 01:06 schrieb Jim Burns:

    Ah.
    I've seen this one before.
    Your tacit thesis is that
    it is preferable to disagree with the Old Ones
    even at the cost of being wrong.

    Yeah, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_Cranks

    Well, it's a choice.

    Indeed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Burns@21:1/5 to Ross Finlayson on Mon Aug 12 19:06:40 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    On 8/12/2024 4:59 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 08/11/2024 09:44 PM, Jim Burns wrote:
    On 8/11/2024 7:39 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:

    Starting with a theory _without_
    the constant introduced named omega,
    i.e., finite sets,

    For P(z),
    use a description 𝕆ᶠⁱⁿ(z) of a finite ordinal,
    and ω := {z:𝕆ᶠⁱⁿ(z)} exists

    For example, use
    𝕆ᶠⁱⁿ(z)  ⇔
    (z ∋ {} ∧ ∀y ∈ z+1: y≠{} ⇒ ∃x∈z: x+1=y)
    ∨ (z = {})

    z+1 = z∪{z}

    Then, omega, as you've defined it,

    ω := {z:𝕆ᶠⁱⁿ(z)}

    contains itself,

    I'm curious, now that you have
    a beginning and an end of
    the finite, or 0 and omega in ZF,

    ω is the least.upper.bound of the finites.
    ω is not a finite.
    ω is not the upper.end of the finites.
    The upper.end of the finites doesn't exist.

    Here though

    _Where_ though?

    it's beginning ... ( ... infinitely-many ...) ... end,
    where the upper.end of the finites always exists.

    For ω as I've defined it, no upper.end exists.

    for each k ∈ ω
    𝕆ᶠⁱⁿ(k)
    𝕆ᶠⁱⁿ(k+1)
    k+1 ∈ ω
    k is not the upper end of ω

    for each k ∉ ω
    k is not the upper end of ω

    Then you claim to have
    an axiom of restriction of comprehension of the finites

    To review:
    What I claim is
    ⎛ ∃{}
    ⎜ ∀x∀y∃z=x∪{y}
    ⎝ and extensionality
    ⎛ ∃∃xx={z:P(z)}: ∀y: y ∈ {z:P(z)} ⇔ P(y)
    ⎝ and extensionality

    ∃∃{z:P(z)} is unrestricted comprehension.
    Unless we are no longer uninterested in what words mean.

    unless Russell grants you
    a dispensation of Russell's retro-thesis,
    and say it's always so for others, too,
    congratulations,
    you claim to have invented a mathematics
    where you = Russell.

    Ah.
    I've seen this one before.
    Your tacit thesis is that
    it is preferable to disagree with the Old Ones
    even at the cost of being wrong.

    Well, it's a choice.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeff Barnett@21:1/5 to Moebius on Mon Aug 12 18:16:55 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    On 8/12/2024 12:48 PM, Moebius wrote:
    Am 12.08.2024 um 20:37 schrieb Jeff Barnett:
    On 8/12/2024 11:22 AM, Moebius wrote:
    Am 12.08.2024 um 18:39 schrieb Jim Burns:

    Cantor believed the continuum hypothesis to be true
    and tried for many years to prove it, in vain.

    Yeah, though today we are ably to "understand" (to a certain extend,
    it seems) the (possibe) reasons fo t/his inability.

    But the question is by no means settled.

    See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
    Continuum_hypothesis#Arguments_for_and_against_the_continuum_hypothesis

    It will never be more settled than it is today. In ZF and it's
    variants you can take it or leave it as you probably well know. And it
    isn't going to be more settled than that.

    So you didn't follow the link? What a pitty. (->ignorance)

    Have you read "Zermelo's Axiom of Choice its origins, development, and influence" by Gregory H. Moore? It's now available in paperback so is affordable. I read it ages ago and it covers far far more than the wiki
    article you recommended. (I looked it over before my first response in
    this thread.) So should I call you ignorant by assuming you haven't read
    the book I recommend now?

    No, I have no idea how ignorant you are. On the other hand, your last
    message makes be think you are an arrogant little snot.

    If you actually think I missed something about a good definition of
    "settled", you should have defined the word as you seem to have a
    slightly nonstandard meaning. At this point don't bother - go back to
    tilting with trolls.
    --
    Jeff Barnett

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Moebius@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 13 02:59:56 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    Am 13.08.2024 um 02:44 schrieb Python:

    Seriously Ross. What's the point of posting nonsense from
    start to finish?

    Imho, he just should check his medication. It might help. (I'm serious.)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Python@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 13 03:03:05 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    Le 13/08/2024 à 02:59, Moebius a écrit :
    Am 13.08.2024 um 02:44 schrieb Python:

    Seriously Ross. What's the point of posting nonsense from
    start to finish?

    Imho, he just should check his medication. It might help. (I'm serious.)

    You may be right. He could be insane, or is he just playing here and
    there for amusement? I'm not sure.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Python@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 13 02:44:23 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    Le 13/08/2024 à 02:28, Ross Finlayson a écrit :
    On 08/12/2024 04:06 PM, Jim Burns wrote:
    On 8/12/2024 4:59 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 08/11/2024 09:44 PM, Jim Burns wrote:
    On 8/11/2024 7:39 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:

    Starting with a theory _without_
    the constant introduced named omega,
    i.e., finite sets,

    For P(z),
    use a description 𝕆ᶠⁱⁿ(z) of a finite ordinal,
    and ω := {z:𝕆ᶠⁱⁿ(z)} exists

    For example, use
    𝕆ᶠⁱⁿ(z)  ⇔
    (z ∋ {} ∧ ∀y ∈ z+1: y≠{} ⇒ ∃x∈z: x+1=y)
    ∨ (z = {})

    z+1 = z∪{z}

    Then, omega, as you've defined it,

    ω := {z:𝕆ᶠⁱⁿ(z)}

    contains itself,

    I'm curious, now that you have
    a beginning and an end of
    the finite, or 0 and omega in ZF,

    ω is the least.upper.bound of the finites.
    ω is not a finite.
    ω is not the upper.end of the finites.
    The upper.end of the finites doesn't exist.

    Here though

    _Where_ though?

    it's beginning ... ( ... infinitely-many ...) ... end,
    where the upper.end of the finites always exists.

    For ω as I've defined it, no upper.end exists.

    for each k ∈ ω
    𝕆ᶠⁱⁿ(k)
    𝕆ᶠⁱⁿ(k+1)
    k+1 ∈ ω
    k is not the upper end of ω

    for each k ∉ ω
    k is not the upper end of ω

    Then you claim to have
    an axiom of restriction of comprehension of the finites

    To review:
    What I claim is
    ⎛ ∃{}
    ⎜ ∀x∀y∃z=x∪{y}
    ⎝ and extensionality
    ⎛ ∃∃xx={z:P(z)}: ∀y: y ∈ {z:P(z)} ⇔ P(y)
    ⎝ and extensionality

    ∃∃{z:P(z)} is unrestricted comprehension.
    Unless we are no longer uninterested in what words mean.

    unless Russell grants you
    a dispensation of Russell's retro-thesis,
    and say it's always so for others, too,
    congratulations,
    you claim to have invented a mathematics
    where you = Russell.

    Ah.
    I've seen this one before.
    Your tacit thesis is that
    it is preferable to disagree with the Old Ones
    even at the cost of being wrong.

    Well, it's a choice.



    Oh, I have the entire canon here along.


    It's like yesterday, in this thread with the subject
    of it talking about "infinite in the middle and always
    with both ends", or, "here...", pointing out that some
    modern philosophers with their Ph.D.s. resuscitate a
    metaphysics that Compte and Boole and Russell and Carnap
    made so nice for Marx and nihilism and extistentialism
    and the sort of post-modern that begets itself.


    Now, I confiscate logical positivism from Compte and
    brush off Boole for De Morgan and point out Russell
    and for example Whitehead suffer their own arguments
    and Carnap was quite a pleasant fellow and I like Quine
    yet I'm not a nominalist fictionalist. So, a stronger
    logical positivism and the ontological is kept with
    a strong mathematical platonism and teleological.

    Talking about "the Old Ones", you still got Zeno
    shaking his head and pointing at his watch.

    Furthermore, I'm a constructivist and agree with
    notions like infinite induction already and as there's
    already, for example a sort of ubiquitous ordinals,
    and even a sort of axiomless natural deduction seated
    in reason.

    The, "material implication", or, "ex falso quodlibet",
    has that material implication is neither material nor implication,
    and ex falso is mistakes or lies.

    Some kinds of strong constructivists don't accept
    non-constructive proofs, for example via contradiction,
    de dicto, at all.


    Here though it's just "modular: always modular,
    of integral wholes, infinite in the middle, modular",
    just so different from "and a 1 and on down and a 2
    and on down and a 3 and on down and ... an omega and
    on down", or, you know, not so.


    See, "modularity" is regular, rulial, in both
    increment and dispersion.


    ... Which most have as properties of integers
    as with regards to associates with magnitudes,
    or measures.



    Heh, you brought up "The Old Ones", it's like,
    what did the librarian or book-keeper say
    when the paranoiac asked for self-help books,
    "they're right behind you".


    So, for example, Anderson's Relevance Logic many
    have as more relevant than the quasi-modal, which
    is neither temporal nor modal, like De Morgan's is,
    with direct implication, there are some fans of Dana Scott
    and not for his coat-tailing and wall-papering,
    the theory of types is often attributed to Peirce,
    the completeness theorems of arithmetic often to Frege,
    the extra-ordinary of set theory to Mirimanoff and also
    a bit to Quine about ultimate classes, you keep the
    Vienna Circle, and, I'll stick with the larger, fuller canon.

    Not that there's anything wrong with that, .....



    Seriously Ross. What's the point of posting nonsense from
    start to finish?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Python@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 13 03:09:26 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    Le 13/08/2024 à 03:06, Ross Finlayson a écrit :
    On 08/12/2024 05:44 PM, Python wrote:
    Le 13/08/2024 à 02:28, Ross Finlayson a écrit :
    On 08/12/2024 04:06 PM, Jim Burns wrote:
    On 8/12/2024 4:59 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 08/11/2024 09:44 PM, Jim Burns wrote:
    On 8/11/2024 7:39 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:

    Starting with a theory _without_
    the constant introduced named omega,
    i.e., finite sets,

    For P(z),
    use a description 𝕆ᶠⁱⁿ(z) of a finite ordinal,
    and ω := {z:𝕆ᶠⁱⁿ(z)} exists

    For example, use
    𝕆ᶠⁱⁿ(z)  ⇔
    (z ∋ {} ∧ ∀y ∈ z+1: y≠{} ⇒ ∃x∈z: x+1=y)
    ∨ (z = {})

    z+1 = z∪{z}

    Then, omega, as you've defined it,

    ω := {z:𝕆ᶠⁱⁿ(z)}

    contains itself,

    I'm curious, now that you have
    a beginning and an end of
    the finite, or 0 and omega in ZF,

    ω is the least.upper.bound of the finites.
    ω is not a finite.
    ω is not the upper.end of the finites.
    The upper.end of the finites doesn't exist.

    Here though

    _Where_ though?

    it's beginning ... ( ... infinitely-many ...) ... end,
    where the upper.end of the finites always exists.

    For ω as I've defined it, no upper.end exists.

    for each k ∈ ω
    𝕆ᶠⁱⁿ(k)
    𝕆ᶠⁱⁿ(k+1)
    k+1 ∈ ω
    k is not the upper end of ω

    for each k ∉ ω
    k is not the upper end of ω

    Then you claim to have
    an axiom of restriction of comprehension of the finites

    To review:
    What I claim is
    ⎛ ∃{}
    ⎜ ∀x∀y∃z=x∪{y}
    ⎝ and extensionality
    ⎛ ∃∃xx={z:P(z)}: ∀y: y ∈ {z:P(z)} ⇔ P(y)
    ⎝ and extensionality

    ∃∃{z:P(z)} is unrestricted comprehension.
    Unless we are no longer uninterested in what words mean.

    unless Russell grants you
    a dispensation of Russell's retro-thesis,
    and say it's always so for others, too,
    congratulations,
    you claim to have invented a mathematics
    where you = Russell.

    Ah.
    I've seen this one before.
    Your tacit thesis is that
    it is preferable to disagree with the Old Ones
    even at the cost of being wrong.

    Well, it's a choice.



    Oh, I have the entire canon here along.


    It's like yesterday, in this thread with the subject
    of it talking about "infinite in the middle and always
    with both ends", or, "here...", pointing out that some
    modern philosophers with their Ph.D.s. resuscitate a
    metaphysics that Compte and Boole and Russell and Carnap
    made so nice for Marx and nihilism and extistentialism
    and the sort of post-modern that begets itself.


    Now, I confiscate logical positivism from Compte and
    brush off Boole for De Morgan and point out Russell
    and for example Whitehead suffer their own arguments
    and Carnap was quite a pleasant fellow and I like Quine
    yet I'm not a nominalist fictionalist. So, a stronger
    logical positivism and the ontological is kept with
    a strong mathematical platonism and teleological.

    Talking about "the Old Ones", you still got Zeno
    shaking his head and pointing at his watch.

    Furthermore, I'm a constructivist and agree with
    notions like infinite induction already and as there's
    already, for example a sort of ubiquitous ordinals,
    and even a sort of axiomless natural deduction seated
    in reason.

    The, "material implication", or, "ex falso quodlibet",
    has that material implication is neither material nor implication,
    and ex falso is mistakes or lies.

    Some kinds of strong constructivists don't accept
    non-constructive proofs, for example via contradiction,
    de dicto, at all.


    Here though it's just "modular: always modular,
    of integral wholes, infinite in the middle, modular",
    just so different from "and a 1 and on down and a 2
    and on down and a 3 and on down and ... an omega and
    on down", or, you know, not so.


    See, "modularity" is regular, rulial, in both
    increment and dispersion.


    ... Which most have as properties of integers
    as with regards to associates with magnitudes,
    or measures.



    Heh, you brought up "The Old Ones", it's like,
    what did the librarian or book-keeper say
    when the paranoiac asked for self-help books,
    "they're right behind you".


    So, for example, Anderson's Relevance Logic many
    have as more relevant than the quasi-modal, which
    is neither temporal nor modal, like De Morgan's is,
    with direct implication, there are some fans of Dana Scott
    and not for his coat-tailing and wall-papering,
    the theory of types is often attributed to Peirce,
    the completeness theorems of arithmetic often to Frege,
    the extra-ordinary of set theory to Mirimanoff and also
    a bit to Quine about ultimate classes, you keep the
    Vienna Circle, and, I'll stick with the larger, fuller canon.

    Not that there's anything wrong with that, .....



    Seriously Ross. What's the point of posting nonsense from
    start to finish?



    If you don't know your history
    someone's bound to try and re-write it for you.

    My only question is : are you a troll posting nonsense in
    purpose (which one?) or a psychotic raving lunatic needing
    medical help.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Python@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 13 03:24:59 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    Le 13/08/2024 à 03:16, Ross Finlayson a écrit :
    On 08/12/2024 06:06 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 08/12/2024 05:44 PM, Python wrote:
    Le 13/08/2024 à 02:28, Ross Finlayson a écrit :
    On 08/12/2024 04:06 PM, Jim Burns wrote:
    On 8/12/2024 4:59 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 08/11/2024 09:44 PM, Jim Burns wrote:
    On 8/11/2024 7:39 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:

    Starting with a theory _without_
    the constant introduced named omega,
    i.e., finite sets,

    For P(z),
    use a description 𝕆ᶠⁱⁿ(z) of a finite ordinal,
    and ω := {z:𝕆ᶠⁱⁿ(z)} exists

    For example, use
    𝕆ᶠⁱⁿ(z)  ⇔
    (z ∋ {} ∧ ∀y ∈ z+1: y≠{} ⇒ ∃x∈z: x+1=y)
    ∨ (z = {})

    z+1 = z∪{z}

    Then, omega, as you've defined it,

    ω := {z:𝕆ᶠⁱⁿ(z)}

    contains itself,

    I'm curious, now that you have
    a beginning and an end of
    the finite, or 0 and omega in ZF,

    ω is the least.upper.bound of the finites.
    ω is not a finite.
    ω is not the upper.end of the finites.
    The upper.end of the finites doesn't exist.

    Here though

    _Where_ though?

    it's beginning ... ( ... infinitely-many ...) ... end,
    where the upper.end of the finites always exists.

    For ω as I've defined it, no upper.end exists.

    for each k ∈ ω
    𝕆ᶠⁱⁿ(k)
    𝕆ᶠⁱⁿ(k+1)
    k+1 ∈ ω
    k is not the upper end of ω

    for each k ∉ ω
    k is not the upper end of ω

    Then you claim to have
    an axiom of restriction of comprehension of the finites

    To review:
    What I claim is
    ⎛ ∃{}
    ⎜ ∀x∀y∃z=x∪{y}
    ⎝ and extensionality
    ⎛ ∃∃xx={z:P(z)}: ∀y: y ∈ {z:P(z)} ⇔ P(y)
    ⎝ and extensionality

    ∃∃{z:P(z)} is unrestricted comprehension.
    Unless we are no longer uninterested in what words mean.

    unless Russell grants you
    a dispensation of Russell's retro-thesis,
    and say it's always so for others, too,
    congratulations,
    you claim to have invented a mathematics
    where you = Russell.

    Ah.
    I've seen this one before.
    Your tacit thesis is that
    it is preferable to disagree with the Old Ones
    even at the cost of being wrong.

    Well, it's a choice.



    Oh, I have the entire canon here along.


    It's like yesterday, in this thread with the subject
    of it talking about "infinite in the middle and always
    with both ends", or, "here...", pointing out that some
    modern philosophers with their Ph.D.s. resuscitate a
    metaphysics that Compte and Boole and Russell and Carnap
    made so nice for Marx and nihilism and extistentialism
    and the sort of post-modern that begets itself.


    Now, I confiscate logical positivism from Compte and
    brush off Boole for De Morgan and point out Russell
    and for example Whitehead suffer their own arguments
    and Carnap was quite a pleasant fellow and I like Quine
    yet I'm not a nominalist fictionalist. So, a stronger
    logical positivism and the ontological is kept with
    a strong mathematical platonism and teleological.

    Talking about "the Old Ones", you still got Zeno
    shaking his head and pointing at his watch.

    Furthermore, I'm a constructivist and agree with
    notions like infinite induction already and as there's
    already, for example a sort of ubiquitous ordinals,
    and even a sort of axiomless natural deduction seated
    in reason.

    The, "material implication", or, "ex falso quodlibet",
    has that material implication is neither material nor implication,
    and ex falso is mistakes or lies.

    Some kinds of strong constructivists don't accept
    non-constructive proofs, for example via contradiction,
    de dicto, at all.


    Here though it's just "modular: always modular,
    of integral wholes, infinite in the middle, modular",
    just so different from "and a 1 and on down and a 2
    and on down and a 3 and on down and ... an omega and
    on down", or, you know, not so.


    See, "modularity" is regular, rulial, in both
    increment and dispersion.


    ... Which most have as properties of integers
    as with regards to associates with magnitudes,
    or measures.



    Heh, you brought up "The Old Ones", it's like,
    what did the librarian or book-keeper say
    when the paranoiac asked for self-help books,
    "they're right behind you".


    So, for example, Anderson's Relevance Logic many
    have as more relevant than the quasi-modal, which
    is neither temporal nor modal, like De Morgan's is,
    with direct implication, there are some fans of Dana Scott
    and not for his coat-tailing and wall-papering,
    the theory of types is often attributed to Peirce,
    the completeness theorems of arithmetic often to Frege,
    the extra-ordinary of set theory to Mirimanoff and also
    a bit to Quine about ultimate classes, you keep the
    Vienna Circle, and, I'll stick with the larger, fuller canon.

    Not that there's anything wrong with that, .....



    Seriously Ross. What's the point of posting nonsense from
    start to finish?



    If you don't know your history
    someone's bound to try and re-write it for you.



    I released a new pod-cast the other day, you could
    put a voice-stress analysis on it and see if it's
    perceived veracity.

    https://www.youtube.com/@rossfinlayson

    Wouldn't that be nice, an un-obtrusive red or green
    dot on your screen indicating when someone's either
    lying to your face or entirely empty?

    Perhaps you might put its transcript to one of these
    modern mechanical thinking apparatuses and see whether
    it finds anything of value or exactly what it doesn't agree.

    Though I suppose you could always down a bottle of Xanax
    and some booze and not worry much either way except
    for perhaps the headache the next day, or otherwise
    how to reclaim the brain from a pool of re-uptake inhibitors.


    On the idiot scale, damnit I'm not going to beat your wife
    for you. And you can take the entire slate of rhetorical fallacies
    and wash it on down with some "I told you so".


    Well I watched one of your videos.

    You definitely need medical help. Fast.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Python@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 13 04:47:20 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    Le 13/08/2024 à 03:16, Ross Finlayson a écrit :
    ...
    https://www.youtube.com/@rossfinlayson

    Oh dear this is bad. Do you realize that you are putting
    words upon words, sentences upon sentences NONE of them
    making any sense. Just like what you are posting on Usenet,
    but there on air for hours...

    You need medical help, FAST!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Python@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 13 05:00:30 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    Le 13/08/2024 à 02:59, Moebius a écrit :
    Am 13.08.2024 um 02:44 schrieb Python:

    Seriously Ross. What's the point of posting nonsense from
    start to finish?

    Imho, he just should check his medication. It might help. (I'm serious.)

    The guy is clearly at risk.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Python@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 13 04:53:15 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    Le 13/08/2024 à 04:50, Ross Finlayson a écrit :
    On 08/12/2024 07:47 PM, Python wrote:
    Le 13/08/2024 à 03:16, Ross Finlayson a écrit :
    ...
    https://www.youtube.com/@rossfinlayson

    Oh dear this is bad. Do you realize that you are putting
    words upon words, sentences upon sentences NONE of them
    making any sense. Just like what you are posting on Usenet,
    but there on air for hours...

    You need medical help, FAST!




    Let me know when they grant your M.D.

    You do not need a M.D. title to recognize a lunatic psychopath
    which is in danger.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Python@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 13 05:06:51 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    Le 13/08/2024 à 05:02, Ross Finlayson a écrit :
    On 08/12/2024 08:00 PM, Python wrote:
    Le 13/08/2024 à 02:59, Moebius a écrit :
    Am 13.08.2024 um 02:44 schrieb Python:

    Seriously Ross. What's the point of posting nonsense from
    start to finish?

    Imho, he just should check his medication. It might help. (I'm serious.)

    The guy is clearly at risk.



    At risk of kicking you in the nuts.


    Watching you babbling incoherent talk on your YT channel
    is actually quite frightening. Not in the sense you are
    meaning though.

    Please, please, please, Ross. Look for help. You NEED it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Burns@21:1/5 to Ross Finlayson on Tue Aug 13 00:25:06 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    On 8/12/2024 8:28 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 08/12/2024 04:06 PM, Jim Burns wrote:
    On 8/12/2024 4:59 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:

    it's
    beginning ... ( ... infinitely-many ...) ... end,
    where the upper.end of the finites always exists.

    Note: "always".

    For ω as I've defined it, no upper.end exists.

    for each k ∈ ω
    𝕆ᶠⁱⁿ(k)
    𝕆ᶠⁱⁿ(k+1)
    k+1 ∈ ω
    k is not the upper end of ω

    for each k ∉ ω
    k is not the upper end of ω

    ω := {z:𝕆ᶠⁱⁿ(z)}

    It's like yesterday,
    in this thread with the subject of it
    talking about
    "infinite in the middle and
    always with both ends",

    I have just realized that
    I have been overlooking your "always".

    "ALWAYS with both ends" is finite.

    ⎛ Necessary and sufficient conditions for finiteness

    ⎜ [...]
    ⎜ 3. (Paul Stäckel [1862...1919])
    ⎜ S can be given a total ordering which is
    ⎜ well-ordered both forwards and backwards.
    ⎜ That is, every non-empty subset of S has
    ⎜ both a least and a greatest element in the subset.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_set

    "Finite" does NOT need to be small.
    "Infinite" does NOT mean you can get there, but bigly.

    "Arguments" without a common understanding of terms
    are _at least_ vastly more difficult than they need be.
    They might only exist in {}.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Burns@21:1/5 to Ross Finlayson on Tue Aug 13 23:37:30 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    On 8/13/2024 9:03 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 08/12/2024 09:25 PM, Jim Burns wrote:
    On 8/12/2024 8:28 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:

    It's like yesterday,
    in this thread with the subject of it
    talking about
    "infinite in the middle and
    always with both ends",

    I have just realized that
    I have been overlooking your "always".

    "ALWAYS with both ends" is finite.

    If it's infinite in the middle

    If
    it's infinite in the middle and
    its non.{} subsets always have both ends,
    then
    it's not infinite in the middle.

    then, the middle acts as the fixed-point,
    thus augmenting automatically yon definition,
    and suffering not this.

    Or, for example, it's a counter-example.

    Definitions do not have counter.examples.
    A four.sided triangle is not a counter.example.
    It is an incorrectly.identified non.triangle.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Burns@21:1/5 to Ross Finlayson on Sat Aug 17 17:12:14 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    On 8/16/2024 10:28 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 08/13/2024 08:37 PM, Jim Burns wrote:
    On 8/13/2024 9:03 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 08/12/2024 09:25 PM, Jim Burns wrote:
    On 8/12/2024 8:28 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:

    It's like yesterday,
    in this thread with the subject of it
    talking about
    "infinite in the middle and
    always with both ends",

    "ALWAYS with both ends" is finite.

    If it's infinite in the middle

    If
    it's infinite in the middle and
    its non.{} subsets always have both ends,
    then
    it's not infinite in the middle.

    So, you seem to imply that
    the integers by your definition,

    Paul Gustav Samuel Stäckelᵖᵍˢˢ
    (20 August 1862, Berlin – 12 December 1919, Heidelberg)

    the integers by your definition,
    by simply assigning 1 and -1 to the beginning,
    then interleaving them,
    and filling in as like a Pascal's Triangle of sorts,
    or pyramidal numbers, that
    that's, not, infinite?

    Or, the rationals in the usual assignment of
    assigning them integer values
    and all the criss-crossing and
    from either end, building in the middle,
    not, infinite?

    ℕ ℤ ℚ and ℝ are each infiniteᵖᵍˢˢ,
    each not.finiteᵖᵍˢˢ,
    in the sense of Stäckel's finiteᵖᵍˢˢ,
    by lemma 1.

    Lemma 1.
    ⎛ No set B has both
    ⎝ finiteᵖᵍˢˢ order ⟨B,<⟩ and infiniteᵖᵍˢˢ order ⟨B,⩹⟩.

    Definition.
    ⎛ An order ⟨B,<⟩ of B is finiteᵖᵍˢˢ iff
    ⎜ each non.empty subset S ⊆ B holds
    ⎝ both min[<].S and max[<].S

    A finiteᵖᵍˢˢ set has a finiteᵖᵍˢˢ order.
    An infiniteᵖᵍˢˢ set doesn't have a finiteᵖᵍˢˢ order.

    ℕ ℤ ℚ and ℝ each have infiniteᵖᵍˢˢ orders.
    In the standard order,
    ℕ ℤ ℚ and ℝ are subsets of ℕ ℤ ℚ and ℝ with
    0 or 1 ends.
    Thus, the standard order is infiniteᵖᵍˢˢ.
    Thus, by lemma 1, no non.standard order is finiteᵖᵍˢˢ.

    They do not have any finiteᵖᵍˢˢ order.
    Whatever non.standard order you propose,
    you are proposing an infiniteᵖᵍˢˢ order;
    you are proposing an order with
    some _subset_ with 0 or 1 ends.

    One more time:
    In a finiteᵖᵍˢˢ order,
    _each non.empty subset_ is 2.ended.
    Two ends for the set as a whole isn't enough
    to make the order finiteᵖᵍˢˢ.

    ----
    Lemma 1.
    No set B has both
    finiteᵖᵍˢˢ order ⟨B,<⟩ and infiniteᵖᵍˢˢ order ⟨B,⩹⟩.

    ⎛ Assume otherwise.
    ⎜ Assume finiteᵖᵍˢˢ ⟨B,<⟩ and infiniteᵖᵍˢˢ ⟨B,⩹⟩.

    ⎜ When ordered by '<',
    ⎜ there is a first initial.segment[<] ⟨x₀,xⱼ⟩ᑉ
    ⎜ such that, when ordered by '⩹',
    ⎜ ⟨⟨x₀,xⱼ⟩ᑉ,⩹⟩ is infiniteᵖᵍˢˢ
    ⎜ and
    ⎜ ⟨⟨x₀,xⱼ₋₁⟩ᑉ,⩹⟩ is finiteᵖᵍˢˢ

    ⎜ However,
    ⎜ ⟨x₀,xⱼ⟩ᑉ = ⟨x₀,xⱼ₋₁⟩ᑉ∪{xⱼ}
    ⎜ By lemma 2,
    ⎜ there is no set B, no element x, no order '⩹'
    ⎜ such that
    ⎜ B is finiteᵖᵍˢˢ and B∪{x} is infiniteᵖᵍˢˢ.
    ⎝ Contradiction.

    Therefore,
    no set B has both
    finiteᵖᵍˢˢ order ⟨B,<⟩ and infiniteᵖᵍˢˢ order ⟨B,⩹⟩.

    ----
    Lemma 2.
    There is no set B, no element x, no order '⩹'
    such that
    ⟨B,⩹⟩ is finiteᵖᵍˢˢ and ⟨B∪{x},⩹⟩ is infiniteᵖᵍˢˢ.

    ⎛ Assume otherwise.
    ⎜ Assume ⟨B,⩹⟩ is finiteᵖᵍˢˢ
    ⎜ and ⟨B∪{x},⩹⟩ is infiniteᵖᵍˢˢ

    ⎜ Consider non.empty S ⊆ B∪{x}
    ⎜ Either a) b) c) or d) is satisfied, and,
    ⎜ in each case, S is 2.ended[⩹]

    ⎜ a)
    ⎜ x ∉ S
    ⎜ S ⊆ B
    ⎜ S ⊆ B∪{x} is 2.ended[⩹]

    ⎜ b)
    ⎜ x ∈ S
    ⎜ x = min[⩹].S
    ⎜ x ≠ max[⩹].S = max[⩹].(S\{x})
    ⎜ S ⊆ B∪{x} is 2.ended[⩹]

    ⎜ c)
    ⎜ x ∈ S
    ⎜ x ≠ min[⩹].S = min[⩹].(S\{x})
    ⎜ x = max[⩹].S
    ⎜ S ⊆ B∪{x} is 2.ended[⩹]

    ⎜ d)
    ⎜ x ∈ S
    ⎜ x ≠ min[⩹].S = min[⩹].(S\{x})
    ⎜ x ≠ max[⩹].S = max[⩹].(S\{x})
    ⎜ S ⊆ B∪{x} is 2.ended[⩹]

    ⎜ Each non.empty S ⊆ Bu{x} is 2.ended[⩹]
    ⎜ ⟨B∪{x},⩹⟩ is finiteᵖᵍˢˢ
    ⎝ Contradiction.

    Therefore,
    there is no set B, no element x, no order '⩹'
    such that
    ⟨B,⩹⟩ is finiteᵖᵍˢˢ and ⟨B∪{x},⩹⟩ is infiniteᵖᵍˢˢ.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Burns@21:1/5 to Ross Finlayson on Sun Aug 18 13:50:34 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    On 8/18/2024 10:17 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 08/17/2024 02:12 PM, Jim Burns wrote:

    Lemma 1.
    ⎛ No set B has both
    ⎝ finiteᵖᵍˢˢ order ⟨B,<⟩ and infiniteᵖᵍˢˢ order ⟨B,⩹⟩.

    Definition.
    ⎛ An order ⟨B,<⟩ of B is finiteᵖᵍˢˢ  iff
    ⎜ each non.empty subset S ⊆ B holds
    ⎝ both min[<].S and max[<].S

    A finiteᵖᵍˢˢ set has a finiteᵖᵍˢˢ order.
    An infiniteᵖᵍˢˢ set doesn't have a finiteᵖᵍˢˢ order.

    ℕ ℤ ℚ and ℝ each have infiniteᵖᵍˢˢ orders.
    In the standard order,
    ℕ ℤ ℚ and ℝ are subsets of ℕ ℤ ℚ and ℝ with
    0 or 1 ends.
    Thus, the standard order is infiniteᵖᵍˢˢ.
    Thus, by lemma 1, no non.standard order is finiteᵖᵍˢˢ.

    They do not have any finiteᵖᵍˢˢ order.
    Whatever non.standard order you propose,
    you are proposing an infiniteᵖᵍˢˢ order;
    you are proposing an order with
    some _subset_ with 0 or 1 ends.

    One more time:
    In a finiteᵖᵍˢˢ order,
    _each non.empty subset_ is 2.ended.
    Two ends for the set as a whole isn't enough
    to make the order finiteᵖᵍˢˢ.

    So, with "infinite in the middle", it's just
    that the natural order

    0, infinity - 0,
    1, infinity - 1,
    ...

    has pretty simply two constants "0", "infinity",
    then successors,
    and it has all the models where infinity equates to
    one of 0's successors, and they're finite,
    and a model where it doesn't, that it's infinite.

    In the interest of of promoting understanding,
    I think it would be better to call the second constant,
    in models in which it's finite,
    something other than "infinity".

    Infinite is different from finite,
    whether or not finite is called infinite.

    Robinson arithmetic has non.standard models
    with infinite naturals.
    For example, {0}×ℕ ∪ ℚ⁺×ℤ
    ⎛ ⟨p,j⟩ <ꟴ ⟨q,k⟩ ⇔
    ⎝ p < q ∨ (p = q ∧ j < k)

    ⎛ Numbers ⟨p,j⟩ and ⟨q,k⟩ with p<q are
    ⎝ infinitely.far apart.
    ⎛ There are splits between ⟨p,j⟩ and ⟨q,k⟩
    ⎝ with no step from foresplit to hindsplit.
    ( ⟨p,j⟩ is not countable.to ⟨q,k⟩
    ( Not all subsets are 2.ended.

    Then, also it happens that
    there's the usual order of sucessors and predecessors
    that happens to hold,
    naturally enough those are both infinite also.

    In the usual order of successors and predecessors,
    which Robinson arithmetic isn't,
    all the (usual) naturals are finitely.far apart.

    I mention this mundane point because
    I can't tell from what you've written
    whether we agree or disagree here.

    Do you prefer that I can't tell,
    or would you like to clarify that?

    At any rate, just identifying
    even if just defining
    the "predecessors of a limit ordinal"
    as with no other facility than
    "the successors of a limit ordinal",

    There are two kinds of ordinals,
    ordinals which are successors and
    ordinals which aren't successors.

    0 ω and the other limit ordinals are
    the second kind of ordinal.
    Not.being a successor, they not.have predecessors.

    "Predecessor of a limit ordinal"
    means pretty much the same as
    "positive multiple of 0".

    So, ..., "well-order the reals".

    "An inaccessible ordinal exists" ⇒
    "The reals can be well.ordered"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inaccessible_cardinal

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Burns@21:1/5 to Ross Finlayson on Mon Aug 19 00:56:38 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    On 8/18/2024 5:22 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 08/18/2024 10:50 AM, Jim Burns wrote:
    On 8/18/2024 10:17 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 08/17/2024 02:12 PM, Jim Burns wrote:

    Lemma 1.
    ⎛ No set B has both
    ⎝ finiteᵖᵍˢˢ order ⟨B,<⟩ and infiniteᵖᵍˢˢ order ⟨B,⩹⟩.

    Definition.
    ⎛ An order ⟨B,<⟩ of B is finiteᵖᵍˢˢ  iff
    ⎜ each non.empty subset S ⊆ B holds
    ⎝ both min[<].S and max[<].S

    A finiteᵖᵍˢˢ set has a finiteᵖᵍˢˢ order.
    An infiniteᵖᵍˢˢ set doesn't have a finiteᵖᵍˢˢ order.

    ℕ ℤ ℚ and ℝ each have infiniteᵖᵍˢˢ orders.
    In the standard order,
    ℕ ℤ ℚ and ℝ are subsets of ℕ ℤ ℚ and ℝ with
    0 or 1 ends.
    Thus, the standard order is infiniteᵖᵍˢˢ.
    Thus, by lemma 1, no non.standard order is finiteᵖᵍˢˢ.

    They do not have any finiteᵖᵍˢˢ order.
    Whatever non.standard order you propose,
    you are proposing an infiniteᵖᵍˢˢ order;
    you are proposing an order with
    some _subset_ with 0 or 1 ends.

    Robinson arithmetic has non.standard models
    with infinite naturals.
    For example, {0}×ℕ ∪ ℚ⁺×ℤ
    ⎛ ⟨p,j⟩ <ꟴ ⟨q,k⟩  ⇔
    ⎝ p < q ∨ (p = q ∧ j < k)

    ⎛ Numbers ⟨p,j⟩ and ⟨q,k⟩ with p<q are
    ⎝ infinitely.far apart.
    ⎛ There are splits between ⟨p,j⟩ and ⟨q,k⟩
    ⎝ with no step from foresplit to hindsplit.
    ( ⟨p,j⟩ is not countable.to ⟨q,k⟩
    ( Not all subsets are 2.ended.

    I'm really beginning to warm up to this idea of
    "finite" and "all orderings are well-orderings"
    being a thing.

    If you're referring to the idea of
    ⎛ for finite,
    ⎝ all orderings are well.ordered both ways
    then I'm pleased to hear
    that you're warming to the idea.
    I wish you much future warming.

    [...] that they're not "immediate" successors,
    thus it's delineated that they're "deferred" successors.

    Standardly, "successor" is "immediate successor".

    We have other ways to say "deferred successor".
    For example, "after".

    Other than an opportunity to enmurken,
    what does the use of "deferred successor" offer?

    So, ordinals less than a limit ordinal are predecessors,

    To review:

    So, with "infinite in the middle", it's just
    that the natural order
    0, infinity - 0,
    1, infinity - 1,
    ...
    has pretty simply two constants "0", "infinity",
    then successors,
    and it has all the models where infinity equates to
    one of 0's successors, and they're finite,
    and a model where it doesn't, that it's infinite.

    This model in which infinity isn't a successor of 0
    by which you mean infinity doesn't come after 0
    how would infinity not coming after 0 work, exactly?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Burns@21:1/5 to Ross Finlayson on Mon Aug 19 17:43:23 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    On 8/19/2024 3:27 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 08/18/2024 09:56 PM, Jim Burns wrote:

    [...]

    I mean it's a great definition that finite has that
    there exists a normal ordering that's a well-ordering

    ...in both directions...

    and that all the orderings of the set are well-orderings.

    ...in both directions...

    That's a great definition of finite and now it stands
    for itself in enduring mathematical definition in defense.

    ...for comfortably more than a century.

    Why is it you think that Stackel's definition of finite
    and "not Dedekind's definition of countably infinite"
    don't agree?

    They mostly agree.

    Given the Axiom of Choice
    (let us say, if an inaccessible cardinal exists),
    they completely agree.

    My impression from somewhere is that,
    if they disagree,
    they disagree on some very weird sets.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_set

    [...] is another little fact of mathematics
    missing from your neat little hedgerow.

    I mark my neat little hedgerow, and
    I describe what's true everywhere inside the hedgerow.
    That allows me to learn about
    what's inside the hedgerow,
    even though it's infinite and I am finite.

    I like doing that.
    It isn't wrong for me to do that.
    I will continue doing that.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Python@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 20 00:25:03 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    Le 20/08/2024 à 00:21, Ross Finlayson a écrit :
    On 08/19/2024 02:43 PM, Jim Burns wrote:
    On 8/19/2024 3:27 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 08/18/2024 09:56 PM, Jim Burns wrote:

    [...]

    I mean it's a great definition that finite has that
    there exists a normal ordering that's a well-ordering

    ...in both directions...

    and that all the orderings of the set are well-orderings.

    ...in both directions...

    That's a great definition of finite and now it stands
    for itself in enduring mathematical definition in defense.

    ...for comfortably more than a century.

    Why is it you think that Stackel's definition of finite
    and "not Dedekind's definition of countably infinite"
    don't agree?

    They mostly agree.

    Given the Axiom of Choice
    (let us say, if an inaccessible cardinal exists),
    they completely agree.

    My impression from somewhere is that,
    if they disagree,
    they disagree on some very weird sets.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_set

    [...] is another little fact of mathematics
    missing from your neat little hedgerow.

    I mark my neat little hedgerow, and
    I describe what's true everywhere inside the hedgerow.
    That allows me to learn about
    what's inside the hedgerow,
    even though it's infinite and I am finite.

    I like doing that.
    It isn't wrong for me to do that.
    I will continue doing that.



    I try to avoid using the word "weird",
    it's associated with too much jingoism of
    the knee-jerk variety, i.e. Pavlovian or
    operant-conditioning the conditioned-responses,
    "odd", for example, and for some time if you
    recall at some point I declared that the use of
    the word "but" was modally unhygienic and that
    that is only "yet", so, if yet oddly, there are sets
    that are totally regular as being divvied up as
    by parts from part theory, or for example for
    Brentano for boundaries, totally regular,
    yet that for the usual regularity of a set
    theory like ZF, "I am least deep", is the opposite.

    It is _not_ yet oddly that that is so, that the
    same underlying universe of substrate of elements
    in relation has to model sets and parts, and that
    the rulialities, the regularities, than in the universals
    fall out not-ultimately-untrue thus having been at some
    point not-first-false, eg where your limit ordinal comes
    from as a matter of definition or axiomn if necessary,
    yet for those for whom deductive inference is available
    not necessarily so contrived, has that now that you've
    definitely declared that your hedgerow has an inside
    and an outside, that there is an outside, and,
    it's its own inside, about complementary duals,
    like parts and sets, where the comprehension either
    divides or increments, like sets and and classes where
    the comprehension either collects or elaborates, and
    like numbering and counting where the comprehension
    either enumerates as arithmetically or algebraically,
    that each one of these pairs shows itself what must
    be an entire meta-theory all outside your theory,
    then whether you ever enjoy the light of day, as it were.

    Each of these insides is finite to itself yet they
    are infinite outsides to each other.

    Give yourself some credit for having a perfect twin
    who simply was inculcated with axioms starting from
    the opposite side.

    Or, you know, whether or not "complementary duals"
    results "complimentary duels".



    Ross, you are high on drugs, right?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Burns@21:1/5 to Ross Finlayson on Mon Aug 19 19:18:20 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    On 8/19/2024 6:21 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 08/19/2024 02:43 PM, Jim Burns wrote:

    [...]

    [...] eg where your limit ordinal comes from
    as a matter of definition or axiomn if necessary,

    Traced back, the limit ordinal comes from an axiom,
    at least, it has if we haven't screwed up.
    "Where things come from" is the job of axioms.
    "What things mean" is the job of definitions.

    It's an important distinction.
    You are the best authority possible on what you mean.
    That gives you a certain freedom of action,
    when it comes to _definitions_ which
    you don't have when it comes to _axioms_

    Axioms have a tendency to being boring.
    "Of course THAT exists. Duh!"
    That is entirely the point.
    You CAN disagree with an axiom,
    where you CAN'T with a definition, not sensibly.
    I don't WANT you to disagree.
    Whence "Duh!"

    Given Boolos's axioms for ST, (AKA 'Duh!')
    ⎛ ∃{}
    ⎜ ∀x∀y∃z=x∪{y}
    ⎝ and extensionality
    we get that
    the natural numbers exist,
    finite sequences granting addition and multiplication
    exist.

    But we can't prove 'Duh!', except from other axioms,
    or, if we can, we've proved it's worthless.
    (I don't _believe_ it's worthless, but...)

    [...] now that you've definitely declared that
    your hedgerow has an inside and an outside,

    I have declared that my hedgerow has an inside.
    I am agnostic with regard to its outside.
    That suffices because
    I am only talking about its inside.

    Note: All is not lost.
    There are other hedgerows,
    possibly outside of this one.
    However, when I talk about another hedgerow,
    I'll talk about only its inside.
    That's all part of The Plan.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Burns@21:1/5 to Ross Finlayson on Mon Aug 19 20:33:57 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    On 8/19/2024 8:08 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 08/19/2024 04:18 PM, Jim Burns wrote:

    [...]

    Then, about that
    the class of ordinal is an ordinal

    True because of what we mean by 'ordinal'
    ⎛ which leaves open the other question about
    ⎜ whether that class or finite ordinals or
    ⎝ inaccessible cardinal or ... _exist_

    and needn't be given by axiom or relation to an axiom,
    yet instead as a matter of comprehension over the class,

    ...if the class exists.
    How we know that a class exists is by axiom.
    It's an abstract object.
    What other way could we know?

    This need for some axiom to start off the existing
    is harder to paper over in a formal language.
    But, with either a formal or natural language,
    it's inherent in exploring Plato's realm of Forms.
    How else do we enter that realm?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Python@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 20 08:19:14 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    Le 20/08/2024 à 04:40, Ross Finlayson a écrit :
    On 08/19/2024 05:33 PM, Jim Burns wrote:
    On 8/19/2024 8:08 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 08/19/2024 04:18 PM, Jim Burns wrote:

    [...]

    Then, about that
    the class of ordinal is an ordinal

    True because of what we mean by 'ordinal'
    ⎛ which leaves open the other question about
    ⎜ whether that class or finite ordinals or
    ⎝ inaccessible cardinal or ... _exist_

    and needn't be given by axiom or relation to an axiom,
    yet instead as a matter of comprehension over the class,

    ...if the class exists.
    How we know that a class exists is by axiom.
    It's an abstract object.
    What other way could we know?

    This need for some axiom to start off the existing
    is harder to paper over in a formal language.
    But, with either a formal or natural language,
    it's inherent in exploring Plato's realm of Forms.
    How else do we enter that realm?



    You mean it's a void or a universe
    and one can't know which and its
    very contemplation thus inverts it
    thus it's some dually-self-infraconsistent
    Ding-an-Sich this primary object an ur-element?

    I just call it that.

    This way both "how do you get something from
    nothing" and "how do you get nothing from
    something" result the same answer so that
    Kant's Sublime is Supreme and Hegel's
    Nothing is Being.

    Then, Leibnitz doesn't really refer to Plato
    is his monadology, nor Wittgenstein in his
    Tractatus, yet Gadamer wraps up for them "Amicus Plato".


    Here it's simply that axiomless natural deduction is
    this thing then axiomless geometry arrives at
    it fully suffices for all the Euclidean
    then the rest "must" be, "Es muss sein",
    and it requires of course that one has arrived
    at a theory of a Comenius-like language and then
    that that there are no mathematical nor logical
    paradoxes, at all, those all being resolved by
    dually-self-infraconsistency.

    Perhaps you've never left that realm.



    I want to test the same drug !!!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Burns@21:1/5 to Ross Finlayson on Thu Aug 29 19:32:19 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    On 8/29/2024 6:46 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 08/19/2024 12:27 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 08/18/2024 09:56 PM, Jim Burns wrote:

    Definition.
    ⎛ An order ⟨B,<⟩ of B is finiteᵖᵍˢˢ  iff
    ⎜ each non.empty subset S ⊆ B holds
    ⎝ both min[<].S and max[<].S

    Why is it you think that Stackel's definition of finite
    and "not Dedekind's definition of countably infinite"
    don't agree?

    I don't think they disagree, normally.

    Note: If you mean Dedekind's definition of infinite,
    it isn't limited to countably.infinite.

    The entire idea here that there's a particular _regularity_
    due dispersion and modularity only courtesy division down
    from a fixed-point, that "Peano's axioms" don't give integers,
    they only give increments, i.e. not necessarily constant increments,
    that there's more than one _regularity_, REQUIRED, is another
    little fact of mathematics missing from your neat little hedgerow.

    ..., REQUIRED, ....

    Things missing from my neat little hedgerow are
    missing because I intend for them to be missing.
    My neat little hedgerow has no weeds.
    It has not had and will not have weeds.
    And weeds would not be an improvement.

    My neat little hedgerow is well.ordered;
    each non.empty subset holds a minimum.

    In my neat little hedgerow,
    each Little Bunny Foo Foo has a successor,
    scooping up the field mice and bopping them on the head,
    and is a successor, except the first, named 0.

    Successors are non.0 non.doppelgänger non.final.

    You are welcome to talk about something else, Ross.
    Note, though, that,
    if you are talking about something else,
    then you are talking about something else.
    Non.triangles are not counter.examples to triangles.
    Non.Bunny.Foo.Foos are not counter.examples to Bunny.Foo.Foos.

    Have a nice day.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Burns@21:1/5 to Ross Finlayson on Fri Aug 30 01:24:03 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    On 8/29/2024 8:28 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 08/29/2024 05:12 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 08/29/2024 04:32 PM, Jim Burns wrote:
    On 8/29/2024 6:46 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:

    ..., REQUIRED, ....

    Things missing from my neat little hedgerow are
    missing because I intend for them to be missing.
    My neat little hedgerow has no weeds.
    It has not had and will not have weeds.
    And weeds would not be an improvement.

    My neat little hedgerow is well.ordered;
    each non.empty subset holds a minimum.

    In my neat little hedgerow,
    each Little Bunny Foo Foo has a successor,
    scooping up the field mice and bopping them on the head,
    and is a successor, except the first, named 0.

    Successors are non.0 non.doppelgänger non.final.

    You are welcome to talk about something else, Ross.
    Note, though, that,
    if you are talking about something else,
    then you are talking about something else.
    Non.triangles are not counter.examples to triangles.
    Non.Bunny.Foo.Foos are not counter.examples to Bunny.Foo.Foos.

    Have a nice day.

    Sort of like you don't apply the inductive cases
    that each stay "nope" and instead only affirm
    that each one "goes", where, it goes.

    Where it _goes_.

    No inductive case _goes_

    if P(0) and ∀j ∈ ℕ: P(j)⇒P(j+1)
    then P(0) and ¬∃j ∈ ℕ: P(j)∧¬P(j+1)

    Each non.0 of ℕ has a predecessor.

    if P(0) and ¬∃j ∈ ℕ: P(j)∧¬P(j+1)
    then the set {i ∈ ℕ: ¬P(i)} holds no first.

    ℕ is well.ordered.

    if the set {i ∈ ℕ: ¬P(i)} holds no first
    then {i ∈ ℕ: ¬P(i)} = {}

    if {i ∈ ℕ: ¬P(i)} = {}
    then ∀k ∈ ℕ: P(k)

    if P(0) and ∀j ∈ ℕ: P(j)⇒P(j+1)
    then ∀k ∈ ℕ: P(k)

    No inductive case _goes_

    Then a claim like "I don't pick wrong"

    Note:
    My claim is not like "I don't pick wrong".

    My claim is like "I am talking about Little Bunny Foo Foos",
    with their famous well.order, successors, predecessors,
    and field.mice.bopping.

    The support for this claim that I'm talking about that
    is my continued talking about it.
    It's possible that this argument is hard to see
    because it's microscopic.

    Nevertheless, like the moons of Jupiter,
    the argument persists, with or without our looking.
    Eppur si muove.

    So, well-order the reals.

    If an inaccessible cardinal exists,
    then the reals can be well.ordered.
    So?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Burns@21:1/5 to Ross Finlayson on Fri Aug 30 17:41:56 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    On 8/30/2024 4:00 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 08/29/2024 10:24 PM, Jim Burns wrote:

    [...]

    Regularity of _difference_, and,
    regularity of _dispersion_,
    both _increment_, and _modularity_,
    are examples of two various kinds of regularity,

    There is yet another kind of regularity which is
    relevant to whether ω contains ω.
    ⎛ Axiom of Regularity.
    ⎜ Every non-empty set x contains a member y such that
    ⎝ x and y are disjoint sets.

    Consider an ordinal as the set of ordinals before it.

    Each ordinal ξ except the first, 0 = {},
    holds the first, {} ∈ ξ
    Each ordinal ξ is disjoint from {}
    Each ordinal ξ is a regular set.

    A regular set is not an element of itself.
    An ordinal is not an element of itself.
    ω is not an element of itself.

    The reals actually give a well-ordering, though,
    it's their normal ordering as via a model of line-reals.

    No.
    The normal ordering of the reals is not a well.ordering.

    In a well.ordering,
    each nonempty subset holds a minimum.
    In the normal ordering of ℝ,
    (0,1] does not hold a minimum.
    The normal ordering of ℝ is not a well.ordering.

    If the non.hypocritical stance on that result is that,
    there are non.standard.this and non.standard.that
    _without_ that result,
    consider that triangles without right angles are
    not counter.examples to the Pythagorean theorem.
    They are _not relevant_ to the Pythagorean theorem.

    Well.ordered things which aren't ℝ
    does not change that
    the normal ordering of ℝ is not a well.order.

    Of course
    any other one you'd give would have
    taking a subset of ordinals,
    which of course are _always_ well-ordered,
    with those being an uncountable subset's, of the reals,
    _also in their normal ordering_.

    I find it interesting,
    though possibly not to.the.point,
    that,
    for any two well.ordered sets,
    one set is order.isomorphic to
    an initial segment of the other set.

    In that sense, there is only one well.order.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Burns@21:1/5 to Ross Finlayson on Mon Sep 2 17:46:52 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    On 9/1/2024 2:44 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 08/30/2024 02:41 PM, Jim Burns wrote:
    On 8/30/2024 4:00 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:

    The reals actually give a well-ordering, though,
    it's their normal ordering as via a model of line-reals.

    No.
    The normal ordering of the reals
    is not a well.ordering.
    In a well.ordering,
    each nonempty subset holds a minimum.
    In the normal ordering of ℝ,
    (0,1] does not hold a minimum.
    The normal ordering of ℝ is not a well.ordering.

    Then, here is the great example of examples
    from well-ordering the reals,
    because
    they're given an axiom to provide least-upper-bound,

    Greatest.lower.bound property of standard ⟨ℝ,<⟩
    For each bounded non.{} S ⊆ ℝ
    exists greatest.lower.bound.S ∈ ℝ 🖘🖘🖘

    Well.order property of standard ⟨ℕ,<⟩
    For each (bounded) non.{} S ⊆ ℕ
    exists greatest.lower.bound.S ∈ S 🖘🖘🖘

    glb.S ∈ S = min.S
    I threw in '(bounded)' for symmetry.
    Each S ∈ ℕ is bounded by glb.ℕ = 0

    "out of induction's sake",
    then on giving for the axiom a well-ordering,
    what sort of makes for a total ordering in any
    what's called a space,
    there are these continuity criteria where
    thusly,
    given a well-ordering of the reals,

    If we are granted the Axiom of Choice,
    then we can prove that
    a well.ordering ⟨ℝ,◁⟩ of the reals exists.

    That well.ordering ⟨ℝ,◁⟩ is NOT standard ⟨ℝ,<⟩

    one provides various counterexamples
    in least-upper-bound, and thus topology,
    for example
    the first counterexample from topology
    "there is no smallest positive real number".

    Ordered by standard order ⟨ℝ,<⟩
    ℝ⁺ holds no smallest positive real number.

    Ordered by well.order ⟨ℝ,◁⟩
    ℝ⁺ holds a first positive real number.

    They aren't counter.examples.
    They are different orders.

    Then the point that induction lets out is
    at the Sorites or heap,
    for that Burns' "not.first.false", means
    "never failing induction first thus
    being disqualified arbitrarily forever",

    Not.first.false is about formulas which
    are not necessarily about induction.

    A first.false formula is false _and_
    all (of these totally ordered formulas)
    preceding formulas are true.

    A not.first.false formula is not.that.

    not.first.false Fₖ ⇔
    ¬(¬Fₖ ∧ ∀j<k:Fⱼ) ⇔
    Fₖ ∨ ∃j<k:¬Fⱼ ⇔
    ∀j<k:Fⱼ ⇒ Fₖ

    A finite formula.sequence S = {Fᵢ:i∈⟨1…n⟩} has
    a possibly.empty sub.sequence {Fᵢ:i∈⟨1…n⟩∧¬Fᵢ}
    of false formulas.

    If {Fᵢ:i∈⟨1…n⟩∧¬Fᵢ} is not empty,
    it holds a first false formula,
    because {Fᵢ:i∈⟨1…n⟩} is finite.

    If each Fₖ ∈ {Fᵢ:i∈⟨1…n⟩} is not.first.false, {Fᵢ:i∈⟨1…n⟩∧¬Fᵢ} does not hold a first.false, and {Fᵢ:i∈⟨1…n⟩∧¬Fᵢ} is empty, and
    each formula in {Fᵢ:i∈⟨1…n⟩} is true.

    And that is why I go on about not.first.false.

    least-upper-bound, has that
    that's been given as an axiom above or "in" ZFC,

    No, least.upper.bound isn't an axiom above or in ZFC.

    that the least-upper-bound property even exists
    after the ordered field that is
    "same as the rationals, models the rationals,
    thus where it's the only model of the rationals
    it's given the existence",

    No, the complete ordered field isn't
    a model of the rationals.

    Here then this "infinite middle"
    is just like "unbounded in the middle"
    which is just like this
    "the well-ordering of the reals up to
    their least-upper-boundedness",

    If the well.ordering of the reals exists,
    it is not the standard order of the reals,
    which has the least.upper.bound property,
    but is not a well.order.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Burns@21:1/5 to Ross Finlayson on Tue Sep 3 14:39:15 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    On 9/2/2024 8:25 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 09/02/2024 02:46 PM, Jim Burns wrote:

    [...]

    If a well-ordering exists, then,
    consider it as a bijective function from ordinal O,
    and thus its "elements" or ordinals O,
    to domain D.

    We are well.ordering the reals, so...
    let O = ℶ₁ = |ℝ| = |𝒫(ℕ)|
    let D = ℝ
    let #: ℝ → ℶ₁: bijective

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beth_number

    As a Cartesian function the usual way, that's thusly
    a set of ordered pairs (o, d) which then
    via usual axioms and schema of comprehension and
    the existence of choice,
    read out in order the element (o_alpha, d).

    So, a well-ordering of the reals, this function, takes
    any subset of uncountably many elements (o_alpha, d, alpha).
    Now, what's so is that
    only countably many of the d can be in their normal order,
    that alpha < beta -> d_alpha < d_beta.

    ...or x,y such that #x < #y ⇒ x < y

    This is because
    there are rational numbers between any of those,
    and only countably many of those.

    I don't see what you're getting at.

    In the usual order,
    there are rational numbers between any two real numbers,
    and only countably many rational numbers,
    and uncountably.many real numbers in their usual order.
    One doesn't prevent the other.

    Maybe there is a different argument available.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Burns@21:1/5 to Ross Finlayson on Tue Sep 3 15:28:08 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    On 9/2/2024 8:25 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 09/02/2024 02:46 PM, Jim Burns wrote:
    On 9/1/2024 2:44 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:

    least-upper-bound, has that
    that's been given as an axiom above or "in" ZFC,

    No, least.upper.bound isn't an axiom above or in ZFC.

    Then,
    about the least-upper-bound actually being an axiom,

    ...in ZFC.

    Least.upper.bound is an axiom of the complete.ordered.field.

    ZFC:
    Extensionality, Regularity, Restricted Comprehension schema,
    Pairing, Union, Replacement schema, Infinity, Power Set,
    Well.ordering (Choice)

    it sort of is,
    that Dedekind-Eudoxus-Cauchy or
    "there are all the infinite sequences",
    as that there are "enough" elements in Cantor space
    to fulfill least-upper-bound, it's an axiom.

    I'm curious what you think it is to be an axiom.

    I would ask, but you (RF) don't answer questions.
    So, I'll just muddle along, with my curiosity unsatisfied.

    ----
    A construction of ℝ in ZFC does not use bulldozers.
    It is a proof that something, for example {S⊆ℚ:∅≠Sᵉᵃᶜʰ<ᵉˣⁱˢᵗˢSᵉᵃᶜʰ<ᵉᵃᶜʰℚ\S≠∅} satisfies all the axioms of the complete ordered field,
    among which is the least.upper.bound property.

    An axiom in one context can be a theorem in another,
    and vice versa.

    Axioms set the topic of discussion.
    A different discussion will have a different topic
    described by different axioms.

    Changing axioms doesn't make one _wrong_
    It makes one _outside the discussion_
    or, as has been said before, _not even wrong_

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Burns@21:1/5 to Ross Finlayson on Tue Sep 3 16:50:55 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    On 9/2/2024 8:25 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 09/02/2024 02:46 PM, Jim Burns wrote:
    On 9/1/2024 2:44 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:

    Then the point that induction lets out is
    at the Sorites or heap,
    for that Burns' "not.first.false", means
    "never failing induction first thus
    being disqualified arbitrarily forever",

    Not.first.false is about formulas which
    are not necessarily about induction.

    A first.false formula is false _and_
    all (of these totally ordered formulas)
    preceding formulas are true.

    A not.first.false formula is not.that.

    not.first.false Fₖ  ⇔
    ¬(¬Fₖ ∧ ∀j<k:Fⱼ)  ⇔
    Fₖ ∨ ∃j<k:¬Fⱼ  ⇔
    ∀j<k:Fⱼ ⇒ Fₖ

    A finite formula.sequence S = {Fᵢ:i∈⟨1…n⟩} has
    a possibly.empty sub.sequence {Fᵢ:i∈⟨1…n⟩∧¬Fᵢ}
    of false formulas.

    If {Fᵢ:i∈⟨1…n⟩∧¬Fᵢ} is not empty,
    it holds a first false formula,
    because {Fᵢ:i∈⟨1…n⟩} is finite.

    If each Fₖ ∈ {Fᵢ:i∈⟨1…n⟩} is not.first.false,
    {Fᵢ:i∈⟨1…n⟩∧¬Fᵢ} does not hold a first.false, and
    {Fᵢ:i∈⟨1…n⟩∧¬Fᵢ} is empty, and
    each formula in {Fᵢ:i∈⟨1…n⟩} is true.

    And that is why I go on about not.first.false.

    Then about not.first.false
    thanks for writing that up a bit more,
    then that also you can see what I make of it.

    What I find poetic about not.first.false and all that
    is that our finiteness isn't only _permitted_
    It is _incorporated into_ our logic. _Required_

    A finite linear order _must be_ well.ordered
    (must be, both ways)
    ∀γ:T(γ) ⇐ ∀β:(T(β) ⇐ ∀α<β:T(α))
    ∀α:T(α) ⇐ ∀β:(T(β) ⇐ ∀γ>β:T(γ))

    We are finite.
    The formulas we write are finitely.many.
    In a linear order, they must be in a well.order.

    In a well.order,
    if each formula Φ[β] is not.first.false
    ∀β:¬(¬T(Φ[β] ∧ ∀α<β:T(Φ[α])
    ∀β:(T(Φ[β]) ⇐ ∀α<β:T(Φ[α]))
    then each formula is not.false.
    ∀γ:T(Φ[γ])

    ...because well.order (because finite).
    ∀γ:T(Φ[γ]) ⇐ ∀β:(T(Φ[β]) ⇐ ∀α<β:T(Φ[α]))

    Not.ultimately.untrue, ..., has that
    F, bears the value for all F_alpha parameterized by ordinals
    (which suffice, large enough, to totally order things),
    of true, and that,
    there are classes of formulas F,
    for example self-referential or differential formulas,
    defined for example according to
    "when F_alpha is not also as for an ordinal less than omega",
    at least making a trivial clear example of
    a definition that is for classes of these sorts formulas
    where "not.ultimately.untrue" is not held by all classes
    for formulas "not.first.false".

    "Not.ultimately.untrue" sounds to me vaguely like "ω-consistent".
    But I don't really know what you are talking about.
    I usually don't know what you are talking about.
    It is what it is.

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  • From Jim Burns@21:1/5 to Ross Finlayson on Fri Sep 6 15:40:06 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    On 9/5/2024 4:14 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 09/05/2024 12:57 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 09/03/2024 01:50 PM, Jim Burns wrote:

    [...]
    [...]

    Back in the 80's and 90's
    it was Nelson's Internal Set Theory
    where it was figured that
    the avenue toward true non-standard real analysis
    was to result.

    This "true non-standard real analysis" must concern
    something other than
    the Dedekind.complete ordered field.

    I.e.,
    not-a-real-functions with real analytical character,
    like Dirac's delta function or
    here for example
    the Natural/Unit Equivalency Function,
    it is expected that
    "foundations" _does_ formalize them, and that
    what doesn't, simply, isn't,
    respectively.

    You (RF) may be tired of nuance by now,
    but
    I think we need to distinguish between
    what _simply_ isn't and
    what _a specific foundation_ won't say is.

    Consider Boolos's ST as a toy foundation.
    ⎛ ∃{}
    ⎜ ∃z = x∪{y}
    ⎝ extensionality

    ST supports the existence of each finite ordinal
    via a finite not.first.false claim.sequence.

    ST does not support the existence of
    a set of all finite ordinals.
    At least, I don't see how it could.
    ST doesn't support its non.existence, either.
    At least, I don't see how it could.

    An ordinal which has itself as an element
    simply isn't.
    That depends pretty much completely on
    _what ordinal are_ well.ordered.

    Getting around that prohibition would
    require ordinals which were something else.
    But that's not actually getting around it.
    That's only playing a game similar to
    "if we rename 2 as 3, then 1+1=3"

    Then this "infinite middle" is just about
    the simplest "non-Archimedean" that there is,
    and in fact even simpler, than for example
    axiomatizing "0" and "omega"

    "omega" must be
    something other than
    the first transfinite ordinal.

    axiomatizing "0" and "omega"
    with an infinite-middle pretty much
    exactly like ZF does,
    except symmmetric about the middle
    instead of non-inductive yet declared fiat
    (stipulated).

    1+1=3?

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  • From Mild Shock@21:1/5 to Ross Finlayson on Sat Sep 7 10:14:07 2024
    XPost: sci.math

    "what __ is __" suggests an equivalence.
    But the transfer principle works only in
    one direction. Counter example for the other

    direction. Let P defined as:

    ∀x (P(x) <=> ¬ x ∈ x)

    Allthough we have in ZFC:

    ∀x P(x)

    There is no set p such that:

    ∀x x ∈ p


    Ross Finlayson schrieb:
    Then this is usually about what's called "transfer principle",
    that "what's true for each is true for all", these kinds of
    things, and about limits and where it does or doesn't hold,
    that's what it's called and that's what it is.

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