• Re: Undecidability based on epistemological antinomies

    From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Mon Apr 29 18:04:58 2024
    On 2024-04-29 14:32:13 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/29/2024 4:24 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-28 13:24:52 +0000, olcott said:

    Translated into a syllogism:

    All A are True
    No A are True
    Therefore B

    Which inference rule of syllogistic logic permits that inference?


    (1) That is a correct translation from this POE argument:
    Proposition A is True.
    Proposition A is False.
    Therefore B
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_explosion

    (2) That as a syllogism it is the non-sequitur error proves
    that the POE was the non-sequitur error all along.

    What you call a "syllogism" isn't one as it has none of the forms
    of valid syllogism as listed by Aristotle.

    --
    Mikko

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  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Mon Apr 29 20:41:43 2024
    On 4/29/24 11:22 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/29/2024 10:04 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-29 14:32:13 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/29/2024 4:24 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-28 13:24:52 +0000, olcott said:

    Translated into a syllogism:

    All A are True
    No A are True
    Therefore B

    Which inference rule of syllogistic logic permits that inference?


    (1) That is a correct translation from this POE argument:
    Proposition A is True.
    Proposition A is False.
    Therefore B
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_explosion

    (2) That as a syllogism it is the non-sequitur error proves
    that the POE was the non-sequitur error all along.

    What you call a "syllogism" isn't one as it has none of the forms
    of valid syllogism as listed by Aristotle.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_proposition
    proves that the premises are the categorical propositions
    required by syllogisms, and these are isomorphic to the POE
    premises. The fact that the conclusion is simply copied
    proves that it was "translated" correctly.

    When the POE argument is corrected translated into a
    syllogism and this syllogism has the non-sequitur error
    that then proves the POE argument also has this same error.

    Assuming that (A and ~A) are true was the mistake of the POE proof.
    We could equally assume that 2 > 5, thus 2 + 1 > 5.


    But it is the PRE-CONDITION of the Principle of Explosion.

    If you think it can never happen, then you shouldn't worry about the
    Principle of Explosion.

    Of course, once it DOES happen due to some error, the BOOM goes the
    logic system.

    Your statement just proves you don't understand how logic actually works.

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  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Tue Apr 30 15:01:09 2024
    On 2024-04-29 15:22:11 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/29/2024 10:04 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-29 14:32:13 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/29/2024 4:24 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-28 13:24:52 +0000, olcott said:

    Translated into a syllogism:

    All A are True
    No A are True
    Therefore B

    Which inference rule of syllogistic logic permits that inference?


    (1) That is a correct translation from this POE argument:
    Proposition A is True.
    Proposition A is False.
    Therefore B
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_explosion

    (2) That as a syllogism it is the non-sequitur error proves
    that the POE was the non-sequitur error all along.

    What you call a "syllogism" isn't one as it has none of the forms
    of valid syllogism as listed by Aristotle.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_proposition

    That page does not tell what a syllogism is. Instead, the page
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllogism
    does.

    proves that the premises are the categorical propositions
    required by syllogisms, and these are isomorphic to the POE
    premises. The fact that the conclusion is simply copied
    proves that it was "translated" correctly.

    The result of the translation is not a syllogism and the conclusion
    does not follow by the rules of syllogistc logic. Threfore you have
    not proven that the principle of explosion is true about syllogistic
    logic. (Is is true about modern ordinary logic, which have different
    rules of inference.)

    When the POE argument is corrected translated into a
    syllogism and this syllogism has the non-sequitur error
    that then proves the POE argument also has this same error.

    The translation is not correct as the result is not a valid
    syllogism.

    Assuming that (A and ~A) are true was the mistake of the POE proof.
    We could equally assume that 2 > 5, thus 2 + 1 > 5.

    A proof that starts with a false assumption is never sound. The
    conclusion of the proof may be false if at least one of the premises
    is false. This is the idea behind indirect proofs: if one can prove
    False or any contradiction then one has proven that one of the permises
    is false.

    --
    Mikko

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  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Wed May 1 12:06:44 2024
    On 2024-04-30 16:06:08 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/30/2024 7:01 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-29 15:22:11 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/29/2024 10:04 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-29 14:32:13 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/29/2024 4:24 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-28 13:24:52 +0000, olcott said:

    Translated into a syllogism:

    All A are True
    No A are True
    Therefore B

    Which inference rule of syllogistic logic permits that inference?


    (1) That is a correct translation from this POE argument:
    Proposition A is True.
    Proposition A is False.
    Therefore B
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_explosion

    (2) That as a syllogism it is the non-sequitur error proves
    that the POE was the non-sequitur error all along.

    What you call a "syllogism" isn't one as it has none of the forms
    of valid syllogism as listed by Aristotle.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_proposition

    That page does not tell what a syllogism is. Instead, the page
       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllogism
    does.


    This is the part of the page on syllogism that links to that link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllogism#Basic_structure

    THat's right. That section says what the form of a syllogism is.
    Your "syllogism" has not that form.

    --
    Mikko

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  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Wed May 1 20:44:23 2024
    On 5/1/24 11:19 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 5/1/2024 4:06 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-30 16:06:08 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/30/2024 7:01 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-29 15:22:11 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/29/2024 10:04 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-29 14:32:13 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/29/2024 4:24 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-28 13:24:52 +0000, olcott said:

    Translated into a syllogism:

    All A are True
    No A are True
    Therefore B

    Which inference rule of syllogistic logic permits that inference? >>>>>>>>

    (1) That is a correct translation from this POE argument:
    Proposition A is True.
    Proposition A is False.
    Therefore B
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_explosion

    (2) That as a syllogism it is the non-sequitur error proves
    that the POE was the non-sequitur error all along.

    What you call a "syllogism" isn't one as it has none of the forms
    of valid syllogism as listed by Aristotle.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_proposition

    That page does not tell what a syllogism is. Instead, the page
       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllogism
    does.


    This is the part of the page on syllogism that links to that link
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllogism#Basic_structure

    THat's right. That section says what the form of a syllogism is.
    Your "syllogism" has not that form.


    *This part is correct*
    Each part is a categorical proposition, and each categorical proposition contains two categorical terms.

    *This part is incorrect only because the POE expression is incorrect*
    "Each of the premises has one term in common with the conclusion:"

    By retaining the same lack of a common term as the POE expression we
    see that the POE expression has the non-sequitur error.


    Which makes it not a valid syllogism.

    That doesn't make it a false statement.

    LOTS of true statements/theories can't be reduced to a valid syllogism.

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  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Thu May 2 00:02:46 2024
    On 5/1/24 10:27 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 5/1/2024 7:44 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 5/1/24 11:19 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 5/1/2024 4:06 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-30 16:06:08 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/30/2024 7:01 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-29 15:22:11 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/29/2024 10:04 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-29 14:32:13 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/29/2024 4:24 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-28 13:24:52 +0000, olcott said:

    Translated into a syllogism:

    All A are True
    No A are True
    Therefore B

    Which inference rule of syllogistic logic permits that inference? >>>>>>>>>>

    (1) That is a correct translation from this POE argument:
    Proposition A is True.
    Proposition A is False.
    Therefore B
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_explosion

    (2) That as a syllogism it is the non-sequitur error proves
    that the POE was the non-sequitur error all along.

    What you call a "syllogism" isn't one as it has none of the forms >>>>>>>> of valid syllogism as listed by Aristotle.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_proposition

    That page does not tell what a syllogism is. Instead, the page
       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllogism
    does.


    This is the part of the page on syllogism that links to that link
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllogism#Basic_structure

    THat's right. That section says what the form of a syllogism is.
    Your "syllogism" has not that form.


    *This part is correct*
    Each part is a categorical proposition, and each categorical
    proposition contains two categorical terms.

    *This part is incorrect only because the POE expression is incorrect*
    "Each of the premises has one term in common with the conclusion:"

    By retaining the same lack of a common term as the POE expression we
    see that the POE expression has the non-sequitur error.


    Which makes it not a valid syllogism.

    That doesn't make it a false statement.

    LOTS of true statements/theories can't be reduced to a valid syllogism.

    The ONLY reason why it is not a valid syllogism is that it
    was correctly translated from the POE arguments thus proving
    that the POE arguments have always been invalid despite
    dictatorial fiat to the contrary.

    The proof that you provided started with the dictatorial
    fiat that says{A is true} AND {A is false}.

    Why does no one apply the principle of non-contradiction here?

    contradictory propositions cannot both be true in the same
    sense at the same time
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_noncontradiction


    Nope.

    Just prove you don't understand how logic works.

    I guess you are admitting that everything YOU have said is also invalid
    as it can't be expressed as a single syllogism.

    You are just proving your stupidity.

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  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Thu May 2 11:11:19 2024
    On 2024-05-01 15:19:54 +0000, olcott said:

    On 5/1/2024 4:06 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-30 16:06:08 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/30/2024 7:01 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-29 15:22:11 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/29/2024 10:04 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-29 14:32:13 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/29/2024 4:24 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-28 13:24:52 +0000, olcott said:

    Translated into a syllogism:

    All A are True
    No A are True
    Therefore B

    Which inference rule of syllogistic logic permits that inference? >>>>>>>>

    (1) That is a correct translation from this POE argument:
    Proposition A is True.
    Proposition A is False.
    Therefore B
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_explosion

    (2) That as a syllogism it is the non-sequitur error proves
    that the POE was the non-sequitur error all along.

    What you call a "syllogism" isn't one as it has none of the forms
    of valid syllogism as listed by Aristotle.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_proposition

    That page does not tell what a syllogism is. Instead, the page
       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllogism
    does.


    This is the part of the page on syllogism that links to that link
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllogism#Basic_structure

    THat's right. That section says what the form of a syllogism is.
    Your "syllogism" has not that form.


    *This part is correct*
    Each part is a categorical proposition, and each categorical
    proposition contains two categorical terms.

    *This part is incorrect only because the POE expression is incorrect*
    "Each of the premises has one term in common with the conclusion:"

    There is nothing incorrect in that. In every syllogism each of the
    premises has one term in common with the conclusion. That this is
    not true about yor "syllogism" simply means that your "syllogism"
    is not true. (Etymologically the term "syllogism" is reference to
    the common words.)

    By retaining the same lack of a common term as the POE expression we
    see that the POE expression has the non-sequitur error.

    No, but we do see that your "syllogism" is not a syllogism.

    --
    Mikko

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  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Thu May 2 07:21:24 2024
    On 5/2/24 12:43 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 5/1/2024 11:02 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 5/1/24 10:27 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 5/1/2024 7:44 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 5/1/24 11:19 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 5/1/2024 4:06 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-30 16:06:08 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/30/2024 7:01 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-29 15:22:11 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/29/2024 10:04 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-29 14:32:13 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/29/2024 4:24 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-28 13:24:52 +0000, olcott said:

    Translated into a syllogism:

    All A are True
    No A are True
    Therefore B

    Which inference rule of syllogistic logic permits that >>>>>>>>>>>> inference?


    (1) That is a correct translation from this POE argument: >>>>>>>>>>> Proposition A is True.
    Proposition A is False.
    Therefore B
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_explosion

    (2) That as a syllogism it is the non-sequitur error proves >>>>>>>>>>> that the POE was the non-sequitur error all along.

    What you call a "syllogism" isn't one as it has none of the forms >>>>>>>>>> of valid syllogism as listed by Aristotle.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_proposition

    That page does not tell what a syllogism is. Instead, the page >>>>>>>>    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllogism
    does.


    This is the part of the page on syllogism that links to that link >>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllogism#Basic_structure

    THat's right. That section says what the form of a syllogism is.
    Your "syllogism" has not that form.


    *This part is correct*
    Each part is a categorical proposition, and each categorical
    proposition contains two categorical terms.

    *This part is incorrect only because the POE expression is incorrect* >>>>> "Each of the premises has one term in common with the conclusion:"

    By retaining the same lack of a common term as the POE expression we >>>>> see that the POE expression has the non-sequitur error.


    Which makes it not a valid syllogism.

    That doesn't make it a false statement.

    LOTS of true statements/theories can't be reduced to a valid syllogism. >>>
    The ONLY reason why it is not a valid syllogism is that it
    was correctly translated from the POE arguments thus proving
    that the POE arguments have always been invalid despite
    dictatorial fiat to the contrary.

    The proof that you provided started with the dictatorial
    fiat that says{A is true} AND {A is false}.

    Why does no one apply the principle of non-contradiction here?

    contradictory propositions cannot both be true in the same
    sense at the same time
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_noncontradiction


    Nope.

    Just prove you don't understand how logic works.

    I guess you are admitting that everything YOU have said is also
    invalid as it can't be expressed as a single syllogism.

    You are just proving your stupidity.

    It is true that the POE argument was correctly
    translated into its equivalent syllogism.
    It is true that the resulting syllogism is invalid.

    It is true that the resulting syllogism is invalid because the
    translation correctly carried over the lack of a common term
    between the premises and conclusion in the POE argument to this
    same lack in the syllogism. This proves that the POE argument
    is invalid.


    Nope, unless you are admitting that most of YOUR claims are also
    invalid, as they are not expressed as a valid syllogism.

    Not a valid syllogism -> not a valid logical statement is NOT a valid arguement.

    You are just proving that you mind can only think in the most simple
    terms and anything beyond that is just beyond what you can handle.

    You are just proving how much of an ignorant pathological lying idiot
    you actually are.

    You are worse than the election deniers that you rail against.

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  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Fri May 3 11:27:35 2024
    On 2024-05-02 13:17:24 +0000, olcott said:

    On 5/2/2024 3:11 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-05-01 15:19:54 +0000, olcott said:

    On 5/1/2024 4:06 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-30 16:06:08 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/30/2024 7:01 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-29 15:22:11 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/29/2024 10:04 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-29 14:32:13 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/29/2024 4:24 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-28 13:24:52 +0000, olcott said:

    Translated into a syllogism:

    All A are True
    No A are True
    Therefore B

    Which inference rule of syllogistic logic permits that inference? >>>>>>>>>>

    (1) That is a correct translation from this POE argument:
    Proposition A is True.
    Proposition A is False.
    Therefore B
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_explosion

    (2) That as a syllogism it is the non-sequitur error proves
    that the POE was the non-sequitur error all along.

    What you call a "syllogism" isn't one as it has none of the forms >>>>>>>> of valid syllogism as listed by Aristotle.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_proposition

    That page does not tell what a syllogism is. Instead, the page
       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllogism
    does.


    This is the part of the page on syllogism that links to that link
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllogism#Basic_structure

    THat's right. That section says what the form of a syllogism is.
    Your "syllogism" has not that form.


    *This part is correct*
    Each part is a categorical proposition, and each categorical
    proposition contains two categorical terms.

    *This part is incorrect only because the POE expression is incorrect*
    "Each of the premises has one term in common with the conclusion:"

    There is nothing incorrect in that. In every syllogism each of the
    premises has one term in common with the conclusion. That this is
    not true about yor "syllogism"

    Only because this error already exists in the POE argument,
    thus the same error is transferred to the syllogism when the POE
    argument is accurately translated into the syllogism.

    simply means that your "syllogism"
    is not true. (Etymologically the term "syllogism" is reference to
    the common words.)

    By retaining the same lack of a common term as the POE expression we
    see that the POE expression has the non-sequitur error.

    No, but we do see that your "syllogism" is not a syllogism.


    It is the exact same invalid syllogism with the non-sequitur
    as the POE argument that it was translated from.

    It is an ivanlid syllogism as the conclusion does not follow by any
    valid inference rule of syllogistic logic. However, the conclusion
    follows by classical logic. One can prove about every inferences of
    the form

    Premise1
    Premise2
    ----------
    Conclusion

    that it is a valid inrerence of ordinary logic if

    ¬Premise1 ∨ ¬Premise1 ∨ Conclusion

    is a tautology of propositional logic then. From this theorem follows
    that your invalid "syllogism" is a valid inference of ordinary logic.

    --
    Mikko

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  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Sat May 4 11:51:42 2024
    On 2024-05-03 12:53:35 +0000, olcott said:

    On 5/3/2024 3:27 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-05-02 13:17:24 +0000, olcott said:

    On 5/2/2024 3:11 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-05-01 15:19:54 +0000, olcott said:

    On 5/1/2024 4:06 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-30 16:06:08 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/30/2024 7:01 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-29 15:22:11 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/29/2024 10:04 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-29 14:32:13 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/29/2024 4:24 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-04-28 13:24:52 +0000, olcott said:

    Translated into a syllogism:

    All A are True
    No A are True
    Therefore B

    Which inference rule of syllogistic logic permits that inference? >>>>>>>>>>>>

    (1) That is a correct translation from this POE argument: >>>>>>>>>>> Proposition A is True.
    Proposition A is False.
    Therefore B
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_explosion

    (2) That as a syllogism it is the non-sequitur error proves >>>>>>>>>>> that the POE was the non-sequitur error all along.

    What you call a "syllogism" isn't one as it has none of the forms >>>>>>>>>> of valid syllogism as listed by Aristotle.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_proposition

    That page does not tell what a syllogism is. Instead, the page >>>>>>>>    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllogism
    does.


    This is the part of the page on syllogism that links to that link >>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllogism#Basic_structure

    THat's right. That section says what the form of a syllogism is.
    Your "syllogism" has not that form.


    *This part is correct*
    Each part is a categorical proposition, and each categorical
    proposition contains two categorical terms.

    *This part is incorrect only because the POE expression is incorrect* >>>>> "Each of the premises has one term in common with the conclusion:"

    There is nothing incorrect in that. In every syllogism each of the
    premises has one term in common with the conclusion. That this is
    not true about yor "syllogism"

    Only because this error already exists in the POE argument,
    thus the same error is transferred to the syllogism when the POE
    argument is accurately translated into the syllogism.

    simply means that your "syllogism"
    is not true. (Etymologically the term "syllogism" is reference to
    the common words.)

    By retaining the same lack of a common term as the POE expression we >>>>> see that the POE expression has the non-sequitur error.

    No, but we do see that your "syllogism" is not a syllogism.


    It is the exact same invalid syllogism with the non-sequitur
    as the POE argument that it was translated from.

    It is an ivanlid syllogism as the conclusion does not follow by any
    valid inference rule of syllogistic logic.

    Only because it was correctly translated from its POE argument.

    A correct inference cannot be correctly "translated" to an
    incorrect inference.

    However, nice to see that you don't disagree with the following:

    However, the conclusion
    follows by classical logic. One can prove about every inferences of
    the form

     Premise1
     Premise2
     ----------
     Conclusion

    that it is a valid inrerence of ordinary logic if

     ¬Premise1 ∨ ¬Premise1 ∨ Conclusion

    is a tautology of propositional logic then. From this theorem follows
    that your invalid "syllogism" is a valid inference of ordinary logic.

    --
    Mikko

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