We went right past Our Lady of Altagracia Day, which is celebrated in
the Dominican Republic., 21 January. When I looked it up I realized what
a big deal it is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Altagracia

Then less than a week later (26 January), in the same country, it's Juan
Pablo Duarte Day. "Father of the Nation" -- 19th century political and
military figure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Pablo_Duarte

The 26th is a real national day in India (Republic Day, adoption of the Constitution, 1950) and Australia (Australia Day, "Captain Arthur
Phillip and his crew raised the Union Jack flag on the beach at Warrane,
on the unceded sovereign land of the Gadigal people of the Eora nation",
as somebody online puts it (1788).

And here it's Anniversary Day (Monday, 27 January). Anniversary of what?
you may ask. Why, of Auckland Province, which was proclaimed on 29
January 1853 (I think), and abolished in 1876, along with all the other provinces. Every "province" still has an Anniversary Day, celebrated
just in that region. Nobody cares much about the provinces any more, but
it's a holiday -- regatta on the harbour -- Sunday we'll go out to the
Folk Festival... weather looks promising.

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Op 24/01/2025 om 10:03 schreef Ross Clark:

We went right past Our Lady of Altagracia Day, which is celebrated in
the Dominican Republic., 21 January. When I looked it up I realized
what a big deal it is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Altagracia

In the page of the location itself the pronunciation [la altaˈɣɾasja], typically ignoring the different a-sounds for Spanish (as they're not
phonemic but only phonetic, or non-existing altogether for some
unwilling ears).

There's a nice town https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alta_Gracia, featuring
a copy of Lourdes' Virgin's Sanctuary, a Che Guevarra museum and a
Manuel de Falla museum, both men having lived there. In the latter I was
once allowed to play some Bach on a honkytonk piano.
I learn from your link that Alta Gracia was given its name after the
Dominican Virgin's.

--
guido wugi

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guido wugi <[email protected]d> wrote or quoted:

In the page of the location itself the pronunciation [la altaˈɣɾasja], >typically ignoring the different a-sounds for Spanish (as they're not >phonemic but only phonetic, or non-existing altogether for some
unwilling ears).

Even Canepari only sees an [a] sound there in phonetic
transcription.

But then he's like, hold up, if you really zero in, you can
tell apart [[a⊣]] (advanced), [[a⊢]] (retracted), and [[a⊥]]
(raised). He drops some examples that'll make your ears perk up:

mirra, caña, alto, and junta.

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[email protected] (Stefan Ram) wrote or quoted:

But then he's like, hold up, if you really zero in, you can
tell apart [[a⊣]] (advanced), [[a⊢]] (retracted), and [[a⊥]]
(raised). He drops some examples that'll make your ears perk up:

In addition to the [[a]], so there are four "micro-phones"
(my wording).

mirra, caña, alto, and junta.

Raised in "mirra" and at the end of "caña" and "junta".

Advanced in the first syllable of "caña".

Retracted in "alto".

And two "normal" [[a]] are found in "asignar".

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Op 24/01/2025 om 21:37 schreef Stefan Ram:

guido wugi <[email protected]d> wrote or quoted:

In the page of the location itself the pronunciation [la altaˈɣɾasja],
typically ignoring the different a-sounds for Spanish (as they're not
phonemic but only phonetic, or non-existing altogether for some
unwilling ears).

Even Canepari only sees an [a] sound there in phonetic
transcription.

But then he's like, hold up, if you really zero in, you can
tell apart [[a⊣]] (advanced), [[a⊢]] (retracted), and [[a⊥]]
(raised). He drops some examples that'll make your ears perk up:

mirra, caña, alto, and junta.

I'm happy with two, a short and a longish. Much as Latin is pronounced. So: Alta Gra:cia. Anda:r.
There's also two kinds of e, and vowel length variation for all.
My wife and family say mu:cho:, like du:ro: but burro:.
Burro: but burros.
Things like that. Ignored or denied by youknowwho anyway. But obvious
in, eg, Argentina, well, not by everybody but they're there alright.

--
guido wugi

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Sun, 26 Jan 2025 00:04:02 +0100: guido wugi <[email protected]d>
scribeva:

Op 24/01/2025 om 21:37 schreef Stefan Ram:

guido wugi <[email protected]d> wrote or quoted:

In the page of the location itself the pronunciation [la alta???asja],
typically ignoring the different a-sounds for Spanish (as they're not
phonemic but only phonetic, or non-existing altogether for some
unwilling ears).

Even Canepari only sees an [a] sound there in phonetic
transcription.

But then he's like, hold up, if you really zero in, you can
tell apart [[a?]] (advanced), [[a?]] (retracted), and [[a?]]
(raised). He drops some examples that'll make your ears perk up:

mirra, caña, alto, and junta.

I'm happy with two, a short and a longish. Much as Latin is pronounced. So: >Alta Gra:cia. Anda:r.

So dynamic stress also comes with some length?

There's also two kinds of e, and vowel length variation for all.
My wife and family say mu:cho:, like du:ro: but burro:.

Part of that also explainable by stress. And because the rr is longer
and more intensive, there is less time left for the u. I suppose.

Burro: but burros.
Things like that. Ignored or denied by youknowwho anyway. But obvious
in, eg, Argentina, well, not by everybody but they're there alright.

--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

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[email protected] (Stefan Ram) wrote or quoted:

Even Canepari only sees an [a] sound there in phonetic
transcription.

Canepari cooked up his own phonetic alphabet (which kind of
lines up with IPA in some spots) and he's all about giving each
sound its own symbol, without having to mess with those pesky
diacritics. So he ends up with this super-detailed breakdown of
"vocoids" (that's fancy talk for what are "vowel phones" to us
regular folks) into about 60 different flavors.

But wait, there's more! He also whipped up symbols for all the
in-between spots (between two of these vocoids), which brings
the grand total to a whopping 100 individual vocoid symbols.

The Spanish variations of [a] wouldn't be distinguishable with
just the first 60, but they each get their own symbol among
these 100 unique characters.

Now, here's the rub - since these symbols aren't all part
of the Unicode club, I can't give you the full picture here.

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[email protected] (Stefan Ram) wrote or quoted:

Now, here's the rub - since these symbols aren't all part
of the Unicode club, I can't give you the full picture here.

Here's my attempt at a Unicode rendition of 60 of Canepari's vocoids:

front back left = unrounded, right = rounded
iߌ ᴉy ɨʉ ɯμ шu high
ɪч ɩʏ ᵻᵿ ωɷ Шʊ lower-high
e/ ɘø əɵ ɤ¤ ϫo higher mid
ᴇ\ эᴓ ɜɞ ᴥρ ѫσ lower-mid
ɛ- єœ ɐᴔ ʌʚ ѧɔ higher-low
æ| ᴀɶ aą ɑ๏ αɒ low

Now, if you would use (aᴀ) for the vocoid between [a] and [ᴀ] etc.,
then the four spanish vowels would be: [a], [(aᴀ)], [(aɐ)] and [(aɑ)].

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Op 31/01/2025 om 12:46 schreef Ruud Harmsen:

Sun, 26 Jan 2025 00:04:02 +0100: guido wugi <[email protected]d>
scribeva:

Op 24/01/2025 om 21:37 schreef Stefan Ram:

guido wugi <[email protected]d> wrote or quoted:

In the page of the location itself the pronunciation [la alta???asja], >>>> typically ignoring the different a-sounds for Spanish (as they're not
phonemic but only phonetic, or non-existing altogether for some
unwilling ears).

Even Canepari only sees an [a] sound there in phonetic
transcription.

But then he's like, hold up, if you really zero in, you can
tell apart [[a?]] (advanced), [[a?]] (retracted), and [[a?]]
(raised). He drops some examples that'll make your ears perk up:

mirra, caña, alto, and junta.

I'm happy with two, a short and a longish. Much as Latin is pronounced. So: >> Alta Gra:cia. Anda:r.

So dynamic stress also comes with some length?

There's also two kinds of e, and vowel length variation for all.
My wife and family say mu:cho:, like du:ro: but burro:.

Part of that also explainable by stress. And because the rr is longer
and more intensive, there is less time left for the u. I suppose.

Burro: but burros.
Things like that. Ignored or denied by youknowwho anyway. But obvious
in, eg, Argentina, well, not by everybody but they're there alright.

I attribute it to vulgar-latin inheritance, such as we still pronounce it. Stress comes into it, and consonant lengths, but not only.
My wife and our family and acquaintances there say, eg,
mu:cho and trucho.
un évènto. Péro and pèrro.
So much for distinguishing only five vowels and no length difference. Admittedly without meaning content (=phonetic, not phonemic), but there alright. Yet it's also true that in Iberic (and some Argentines') speech
I hear much less variation (apart from the é/è one, always there).

--
guido wugi
--
guido wugi

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Sun, 26 Jan 2025 00:04:02 +0100: guido wugi <[email protected]d>
scribeva:

I'm happy with two, a short and a longish. Much as Latin is pronounced. So: >Alta Gra:cia. Anda:r.

The effect of dynamic stress? The first a in alta is also stressed,
but here it is a secondary stress in comparison with that in grácia.

There's also two kinds of e, and vowel length variation for all.
My wife and family say mu:cho:, like du:ro: but burro:.

The long rr leaves less for the vowel?

Burro: but burros.
Things like that. Ignored or denied by youknowwho anyway. But obvious
in, eg, Argentina, well, not by everybody but they're there alright.

But never phonemic, I guess.
--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

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