XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.language.latin

La traduction en français de la phrase portugaise "Depois que eu fizer,
tu vai deixar eu ir embora" est :
"Après que je l'aurai fait, tu me laisseras partir."
"Après que je l'aurai fait, tu vas me laisser partir."

[ir embora] Embora reminded me of something i've wondered for 40
years.


______________________________

In "The Merchant of Venice," Launcelot Gobbo declares:
"Murder cannot be hid long;
a man's son may;
but at the length, truth will out."

Out -- was probably a verb.

______________________________

I've assumed that... In Shakespeare's time,
People didn't have the Computer-Language-like Syntactic sense
that many people have today.

So that...

a strong adverb like AWAY (or out, as in [go out] )
felt like a Pseudo-Verb.

In other words, Elizebethans didn't think of [He will away]
as an abbreviation of [He will go away]


______________________________


The last page of Joyce's [A Portrait] has:

Away! Away!

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.language.latin

On Mon, 16 Dec 2024, HenHanna wrote:

In "The Merchant of Venice," Launcelot Gobbo declares:
"Murder cannot be hid long;
a man's son may;
but at the length, truth will out."

Out -- was probably a verb.

Here I disagree.

In other words, Elizebethans didn't think of [He will away]
as an abbreviation of [He will go away]

That depends whether "will" is

1) a normal verb with approximately the same meaning as "want":
he will go away = he wants/intends/desires to go away
2) only an indicator of future tense:
he will go away = in the future, he goes away

In modern English, case (2) is usually understood, but that can be
different in Elizabethan English. A question "What wilt thou?" has no verb
as in case (2), so it must be case (1) with the meaning "What do you
intend?" Case (1) occurs also in modern English as "if you will" without a verb.

Case (1) was my spontaneous interpretation of "he will away", certainly influenced by German usage where one would say "er will weg" with the
meaning "he desires to get away". By the way, all modal verbs in German
have two different past participles depending of whether they have a verb: Without verb: "er hat gewollt"; with verb: "er hat kommen wollen". That
is, the double character of the same verb as modal verb or ordinary verb
is more perspicuous than in English. It is conceivable that Elizabethan
English resembled German more than today's.

--
Helmut Richter

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.language.latin

On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 21:38:10 +0000, Helmut Richter wrote:

On Mon, 16 Dec 2024, HenHanna wrote:

In "The Merchant of Venice," Launcelot Gobbo declares:
"Murder cannot be hid long;
a man's son may;
but at the length, truth will out."

Out -- was probably a verb.

Here I disagree.

In other words, Elizebethans didn't think of [He will away]
as an abbreviation of [He will go away]

That depends whether "will" is

1) a normal verb with approximately the same meaning as "want":
he will go away = he wants/intends/desires to go away
2) only an indicator of future tense:
he will go away = in the future, he goes away

In modern English, case (2) is usually understood, but that can be
different in Elizabethan English. A question "What wilt thou?" has no
verb
as in case (2), so it must be case (1) with the meaning "What do you
intend?" Case (1) occurs also in modern English as "if you will" without
a
verb.

Case (1) was my spontaneous interpretation of "he will away", certainly influenced by German usage where one would say "er will weg" with the
meaning "he desires to get away". By the way, all modal verbs in German
have two different past participles depending of whether they have a
verb:
Without verb: "er hat gewollt"; with verb: "er hat kommen wollen". That
is, the double character of the same verb as modal verb or ordinary verb
is more perspicuous than in English. It is conceivable that Elizabethan English resembled German more than today's.

_____________

Thank you... when i searched Shak-Text intending to claim that
this phenom. is independent of WILL, i found instead that
indeed Will-Away usu. occurs in combination.

_____________________


Enter CLOTEN

CLOTEN. I cannot find those runagates; that villain
Hath mock'd me. I am faint.
BELARIUS. Those runagates?
Means he not us? I partly know him; 'tis
Cloten, the son o' th' Queen. I fear some ambush.
I saw him not these many years, and yet
I know 'tis he. We are held as outlaws. Hence!
GUIDERIUS. He is but one; you and my brother search
What companies are near. Pray you away; <--
(No WILL)
Let me alone with him. Exeunt BELARIUS and ARVIRAGUS
CLOTEN. Soft! What are you
That fly me thus? Some villain mountaineers?

___________________

The same thing with Soft! instead of Be Soft!

here the Exclamation point is a Command-marker, as in
German.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.language.latin

On 2024-12-16, Helmut Richter <[email protected]> wrote:

In "The Merchant of Venice," Launcelot Gobbo declares:
"Murder cannot be hid long;
a man's son may;
but at the length, truth will out."

Out -- was probably a verb.

Here I disagree.

Me too.

The construction of modal verb + direction, but with the movement verb
elided, is common in German:

Ich muss zum Frisör [].
I have to [go] to the barber shop.

Ich kann heute nicht nach Frankfurt [].
I can't [travel] to Frankfurt today.

Present-day English does not permit this kind of construction any
longer, but you can find it in Shakespeare.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber [email protected]

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.language.latin

Op 18/12/2024 om 20:51 schreef Christian Weisgerber:

On 2024-12-16, Helmut Richter <[email protected]> wrote:

In "The Merchant of Venice," Launcelot Gobbo declares:
"Murder cannot be hid long;
a man's son may;
but at the length, truth will out."

Out -- was probably a verb.

Here I disagree.

Me too.

The construction of modal verb + direction, but with the movement verb elided, is common in German:

Ich muss zum Frisör [].
I have to [go] to the barber shop.

Ich kann heute nicht nach Frankfurt [].
I can't [travel] to Frankfurt today.

In Dutch too.
What seems a bit odd though when "rephrased" in Dutch, is expressions like
   Ich bin (dann) nach Hause.
when describing the past:
   (So) I went home.

That would be "Ich war" for us :)

[...]

--
guido wugi

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.language.latin

On 25/12/24 10:15, guido wugi wrote:

Op 18/12/2024 om 20:51 schreef Christian Weisgerber:

The construction of modal verb + direction, but with the movement verb
elided, is common in German:

Ich muss zum Frisör [].
I have to [go] to the barber shop.

Ich kann heute nicht nach Frankfurt [].
I can't [travel] to Frankfurt today.

In Dutch too.
What seems a bit odd though when "rephrased" in Dutch, is expressions like
Ich bin (dann) nach Hause.
when describing the past:
(So) I went home.

That would be "Ich war" for us :)

I assume that it's "ich bin" because the elided word is a past participle.

--
Peter Moylan [email protected] http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)