• Colin Renfrew passes away (2024-11-24)

    From Christian Weisgerber@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 26 14:28:32 2024
    British archaeologist Colin Renfrew has died. In 1987, he originated
    the "Anatolian hypothesis" of the Proto-Indo-European dispersal,
    an idea that has remained a minority view.

    --
    Christian "naddy" Weisgerber [email protected]

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  • From Ross Clark@21:1/5 to Christian Weisgerber on Wed Nov 27 09:42:39 2024
    On 27/11/2024 3:28 a.m., Christian Weisgerber wrote:
    British archaeologist Colin Renfrew has died. In 1987, he originated
    the "Anatolian hypothesis" of the Proto-Indo-European dispersal,
    an idea that has remained a minority view.


    Thank you. This would not have made the news sources I depend on.
    LinguistList has occasional death notices, but they are normally of
    linguists, which (PTD was always ready to remind us) Renfrew was not.

    I used to try to follow these PIE arguments (particularly when I worked
    among archaeologists), but I haven't recently. I had the impression
    there was a swing back to Gimbutas at one time. Is there a majority view
    these days?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Tilde@21:1/5 to Christian Weisgerber on Tue Nov 26 22:14:16 2024
    Christian Weisgerber wrote:
    British archaeologist Colin Renfrew has died. In 1987, he originated
    the "Anatolian hypothesis" of the Proto-Indo-European dispersal,
    an idea that has remained a minority view.

    Oh my. Bummer. Not all that familiar with his
    Anatolian theory but come across his "Before
    Civilisation: The Radiocarbon Revolution and
    Prehistoric Europe" and his carbon dating work.

    Once had occasion to meet and do some support
    work for a former grad student of his who had
    nothing but good to say about him.

    I was insanely jealous he'd worked/for with a
    proverbial Great Man.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Christian Weisgerber@21:1/5 to Ross Clark on Wed Nov 27 08:52:15 2024
    On 2024-11-26, Ross Clark <[email protected]> wrote:

    British archaeologist Colin Renfrew has died. In 1987, he originated
    the "Anatolian hypothesis" of the Proto-Indo-European dispersal,
    an idea that has remained a minority view.

    Thank you. This would not have made the news sources I depend on.

    It was among the notable deaths on the front page of German Wikipedia.

    I used to try to follow these PIE arguments (particularly when I worked
    among archaeologists), but I haven't recently. I had the impression
    there was a swing back to Gimbutas at one time. Is there a majority view these days?

    Caveat: I'm not plugged into the academic discourse.

    The Achilles heel of PIE has always been that it could not be matched
    to a population movement. As late as the early 2000s, people
    resorted to handwavy ideas like elite transmission to explain the
    spread of Indo-European. Renfrew quite sensibly argued that (1)
    the IE dispersal must have been accompanied by a significant
    population shift and (2) the Neolithic Revolution would have brought
    with it a language dispersal. Linking the two was an attractive
    thought.

    Too bad the time line doesn't work out. The IE languages demonstrably
    share an inherited wheel and wagon vocabulary. The appearance of
    wheeled vehicles is visible in the archaelogical record, and it
    postdates the spread of farming by millennia.

    Enter David Anthony, an American anthropologist who did a lot of
    archaelogical work in Eastern Europe. He listened to what the
    linguists had to say, combined it with his expertise, and laid it
    all out in _The Horse, the Wheel and Language_ (2007). While the
    book itself is not the most compelling read (if I have to read about
    one more grave strewn with red ochre...), it makes a very compelling
    argument that both the linguistic _and_ the archaeological evidence
    dovetail to locate the PIE homeland in the Pontic-Caspian steppe
    of the 4th millennium BC. My jaw dropped when he pinpointed the
    eastward move of Tocharian right there in the archaeological record.
    For a condensed version of the overall argument, try to find

    David W. Anthony and Don Ringe
    The Indo-European Homeland from Linguistic and Archaeological
    Perspectives
    Annu. Rev. Linguist. 2015, 1:199-219

    In recent years, additional genetic evidence has finally come to
    light that also attests to an incursion from the steppe into Europe
    at about the right time. At this point, I don't see how there can
    remain any serious doubt.


    A potential twist is presented by the recent genetics paper

    The genetic history of the Southern Arc: A bridge between West Asia and
    Europe
    https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4247

    which finds a bifurcated population movement from the Caucasus into
    Anatolia and the Pontic-Caspian steppe, but, crucially, not from
    the steppe into Anatolia. There is widespread agreement that the
    Anatolian languages diverged first from the rest of IE, and this
    genetic picture argues that they did so before IE reached the PIE
    homeland. In effect, this revives the century-old Indo-Hittite
    hypothesis that postulates Anatolian as a sister grouping to
    Indo-European. It's worth mentioning that only the thill word of
    the PIE wheel and wagon vocabulary is attested in Anatolian, so it
    is possible for the split to have occurred before the invention of
    wheeled vehicles. I don't know if the archaeologists have yet
    weighed in.

    --
    Christian "naddy" Weisgerber [email protected]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ross Clark@21:1/5 to Christian Weisgerber on Thu Nov 28 12:26:07 2024
    On 27/11/2024 9:52 p.m., Christian Weisgerber wrote:
    On 2024-11-26, Ross Clark <[email protected]> wrote:

    British archaeologist Colin Renfrew has died. In 1987, he originated
    the "Anatolian hypothesis" of the Proto-Indo-European dispersal,
    an idea that has remained a minority view.

    Thank you. This would not have made the news sources I depend on.

    It was among the notable deaths on the front page of German Wikipedia.

    I used to try to follow these PIE arguments (particularly when I worked
    among archaeologists), but I haven't recently. I had the impression
    there was a swing back to Gimbutas at one time. Is there a majority view
    these days?

    Caveat: I'm not plugged into the academic discourse.

    The Achilles heel of PIE has always been that it could not be matched
    to a population movement. As late as the early 2000s, people
    resorted to handwavy ideas like elite transmission to explain the
    spread of Indo-European. Renfrew quite sensibly argued that (1)
    the IE dispersal must have been accompanied by a significant
    population shift and (2) the Neolithic Revolution would have brought
    with it a language dispersal. Linking the two was an attractive
    thought.

    Too bad the time line doesn't work out. The IE languages demonstrably
    share an inherited wheel and wagon vocabulary. The appearance of
    wheeled vehicles is visible in the archaelogical record, and it
    postdates the spread of farming by millennia.

    Enter David Anthony, an American anthropologist who did a lot of archaelogical work in Eastern Europe. He listened to what the
    linguists had to say, combined it with his expertise, and laid it
    all out in _The Horse, the Wheel and Language_ (2007). While the
    book itself is not the most compelling read (if I have to read about
    one more grave strewn with red ochre...), it makes a very compelling
    argument that both the linguistic _and_ the archaeological evidence
    dovetail to locate the PIE homeland in the Pontic-Caspian steppe
    of the 4th millennium BC. My jaw dropped when he pinpointed the
    eastward move of Tocharian right there in the archaeological record.
    For a condensed version of the overall argument, try to find

    David W. Anthony and Don Ringe
    The Indo-European Homeland from Linguistic and Archaeological
    Perspectives
    Annu. Rev. Linguist. 2015, 1:199-219

    In recent years, additional genetic evidence has finally come to
    light that also attests to an incursion from the steppe into Europe
    at about the right time. At this point, I don't see how there can
    remain any serious doubt.


    A potential twist is presented by the recent genetics paper

    The genetic history of the Southern Arc: A bridge between West Asia and Europe
    https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4247

    which finds a bifurcated population movement from the Caucasus into
    Anatolia and the Pontic-Caspian steppe, but, crucially, not from
    the steppe into Anatolia. There is widespread agreement that the
    Anatolian languages diverged first from the rest of IE, and this
    genetic picture argues that they did so before IE reached the PIE
    homeland. In effect, this revives the century-old Indo-Hittite
    hypothesis that postulates Anatolian as a sister grouping to
    Indo-European. It's worth mentioning that only the thill word of
    the PIE wheel and wagon vocabulary is attested in Anatolian, so it
    is possible for the split to have occurred before the invention of
    wheeled vehicles. I don't know if the archaeologists have yet
    weighed in.


    Excellent, thanks again. I remember Anthony's book being mentioned here,
    but I will seek out your suggested alternative, and the Southern Arc paper.

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  • From Christian Weisgerber@21:1/5 to Christian Weisgerber on Sat Feb 8 21:09:37 2025
    On 2024-11-27, Christian Weisgerber <[email protected]> wrote:

    A potential twist is presented by the recent genetics paper

    The genetic history of the Southern Arc: A bridge between West Asia and Europe
    https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4247

    which finds a bifurcated population movement from the Caucasus into
    Anatolia and the Pontic-Caspian steppe, but, crucially, not from
    the steppe into Anatolia.

    There is a new genetics paper out that presents a similar argument.
    It identifies an original population of Caucasus Lower Volga people
    that spawned population movements into (1) Anatolia and (2) the
    Pontic steppe, where it led to the formation of the Yamnaya culture
    that proceeded to spread Indo-European far and wide.

    So, assuming that language correlates with genetics, and depending
    on how you label the nodes, either the origin of PIE shifts east
    to the Caucasus-Volga region, or it remains in the Pontic steppe
    north of the Black Sea and Anatolian is a sister language rather
    than a branch of IE.

    Lazaridis, I., Patterson, N., Anthony, D. et al.
    The genetic origin of the Indo-Europeans
    Nature (2025)
    https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-024-08531-5

    Pop science take: https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2025/02/landmark-studies-track-source-of-indo-european-languages-spoken-by-40-of-world/

    --
    Christian "naddy" Weisgerber [email protected]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Christian Weisgerber@21:1/5 to Christian Weisgerber on Sat Feb 8 22:25:20 2025
    On 2025-02-08, Christian Weisgerber <[email protected]> wrote:

    Lazaridis, I., Patterson, N., Anthony, D. et al.
    The genetic origin of the Indo-Europeans
    Nature (2025)
    https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-024-08531-5

    Related presentations:

    David Reich: The Genetic Origin of the Indo-Europeans https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLNRGGWpOmA

    David Anthony and Dorcas R. Brown: The Yamnaya Origins and the Expansion
    of Late PIE Languages
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg77kPvDmqQ

    --
    Christian "naddy" Weisgerber [email protected]

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  • From Aidan Kehoe@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 9 18:42:17 2025
    Ar an t-ochtú lá de mí Feabhra, scríobh Christian Weisgerber:

    [...] There is a new genetics paper out that presents a similar argument. It identifies an original population of Caucasus Lower Volga people that spawned population movements into (1) Anatolia and (2) the Pontic steppe, where it led to the formation of the Yamnaya culture that proceeded to spread Indo-European far and wide.

    So, assuming that language correlates with genetics, and depending on how you label the nodes, either the origin of PIE shifts east to the Caucasus-Volga region, or it remains in the Pontic steppe north of the Black Sea and Anatolian is a sister language rather than a branch of IE.

    Lazaridis, I., Patterson, N., Anthony, D. et al.

    I hadn’t realised until I loaded the pop-science take that this N. Patterson was Nick, and this is from the David Reich lab, which has tended to be very impressive.

    Thanks Christian!

    The genetic origin of the Indo-Europeans
    Nature (2025)
    https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-024-08531-5

    Pop science take: https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2025/02/landmark-studies-track-source-of-indo-european-languages-spoken-by-40-of-world/

    --
    ‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
    How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
    (C. Moore)

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