• national lowercase day (14 october)

    From Ross Clark@21:1/5 to All on Mon Oct 14 22:30:42 2024
    another day of unknown origin and insubstantial observance
    may be (sez crystal) a reaction against use of SHOUTY CASE in digital communication
    anyhow, the subject (of 'bicameral' scripts) is interesting;
    see especially the history
    old roman cursive (1st century ad) shows the beginnings of some lower
    case letter-forms
    but bicamerality did not become general in europe until 1300
    and took some time to more or less stabilize in english
    you probably noticed in the text quoted yesterday from the time of henry
    iv, all nouns capitalized (as still in german)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_case#Bicameral_script

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  • From Christian Weisgerber@21:1/5 to Ross Clark on Mon Oct 14 22:56:30 2024
    On 2024-10-14, Ross Clark <[email protected]> wrote:

    but bicamerality did not become general in europe until 1300
    and took some time to more or less stabilize in english
    you probably noticed in the text quoted yesterday from the time of henry
    iv, all nouns capitalized (as still in german)

    In the 19th century, there was a fashion in the German linguistic
    literature, I think, to abandon noun capitalization. Notably the
    _Deutsches Wörterbuch_ (German Dictionary) started by the Brothers
    Grimm stuck to this.

    --
    Christian "naddy" Weisgerber [email protected]

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  • From Ross Clark@21:1/5 to Christian Weisgerber on Tue Oct 15 19:17:58 2024
    On 15/10/2024 11:56 a.m., Christian Weisgerber wrote:
    On 2024-10-14, Ross Clark <[email protected]> wrote:

    but bicamerality did not become general in europe until 1300
    and took some time to more or less stabilize in english
    you probably noticed in the text quoted yesterday from the time of henry
    iv, all nouns capitalized (as still in german)

    In the 19th century, there was a fashion in the German linguistic
    literature, I think, to abandon noun capitalization. Notably the
    _Deutsches Wörterbuch_ (German Dictionary) started by the Brothers
    Grimm stuck to this.


    I meant to mention that something like this capitalization practice
    persisted in English at least until late in the 18th century. I noticed
    it when reading narratives of voyages to the Pacific at that period.
    More particularly, it shows up in (carefully transcribed) journals of
    voyagers such as Cook. An example from George Robertson at Tahiti, 1767: ----------------------
    All the way that we ran allong shore we saw the whole coast full of
    Canoes, and the country had the most Beautiful appearance its possible
    to Imagin from the shore side one two and three miles Back their is a
    fine Leavel country that appears to be all laid out in plantations, and
    the regular built Houses seems to be without number, all along the
    Coast, they appeard lyke long Farmers Barns and seemd to be all very
    neatly thatched, with great Numbers of Cocoa Nut Trees....
    ----------------

    This looks roughly like capitalization of lexical words for emphasis,
    rather than on any grammatical basis.

    By contrast the published accounts, even when based on journals, seem to
    have completely modern usage of capitals.

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  • From Aidan Kehoe@21:1/5 to All on Tue Oct 15 16:46:29 2024
    Ar an cúigiú lá déag de mí Deireadh Fómhair, scríobh Ross Clark:

    On 15/10/2024 11:56 a.m., Christian Weisgerber wrote:
    On 2024-10-14, Ross Clark <[email protected]> wrote:

    but bicamerality did not become general in europe until 1300
    and took some time to more or less stabilize in english
    you probably noticed in the text quoted yesterday from the time of henry >> iv, all nouns capitalized (as still in german)

    In the 19th century, there was a fashion in the German linguistic literature, I think, to abandon noun capitalization. Notably the _Deutsches Wörterbuch_ (German Dictionary) started by the Brothers
    Grimm stuck to this.


    I meant to mention that something like this capitalization practice persisted
    in English at least until late in the 18th century. I noticed it when reading
    narratives of voyages to the Pacific at that period. More particularly, it shows up in (carefully transcribed) journals of voyagers such as Cook. An example from George Robertson at Tahiti, 1767:
    ----------------------
    All the way that we ran allong shore we saw the whole coast full of Canoes, and
    the country had the most Beautiful appearance its possible to Imagin from the
    shore side one two and three miles Back their is a fine Leavel country that appears to be all laid out in plantations, and the regular built Houses seems
    to be without number, all along the Coast, they appeard lyke long Farmers Barns
    and seemd to be all very neatly thatched, with great Numbers of Cocoa Nut Trees....
    ----------------

    This looks roughly like capitalization of lexical words for emphasis, rather than on any grammatical basis.

    I wonder have any studies been done comparing uneducated German-speakers to uneducated English-speakers and the skill in determining parts of speech. It wouldn’t shock me if the English-speakers were worse at it, given less need to
    decline nouns and adjectives. I suppose these days it would have to be done on pre-literate children.

    By contrast the published accounts, even when based on journals, seem to have
    completely modern usage of capitals.

    --
    ‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
    How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
    (C. Moore)

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  • From Aidan Kehoe@21:1/5 to All on Tue Oct 15 18:53:24 2024
    Ar an cúigiú lá déag de mí Deireadh Fómhair, scríobh Jeff Barnett:

    I wonder have any studies been done comparing uneducated German-speakers to uneducated English-speakers and the skill in determining parts of speech. It wouldn’t shock me if the English-speakers were worse at it, given less need to decline nouns and adjectives. I suppose these days it would have to be done on pre-literate children.

    Not trying to be snide but, .... There are some questions about how, when, and if our American children do become literate. I suppose that many other countries are asking the same sorts of questions about their youngsters. The electronics and media influences might be even stronger than those of linguistic differences.

    Local experience is that Irish Travellers (who have the lifestyle and social pathologies of Gypsies, but echt-Irish genetics) were routinely illiterate until smartphones came along, and now it’s unusual to come across a younger Irish Traveller who is unable to read and write. A welcome change that has happened in my lifetime (I’m 43). Was your feeling that literacy has declined?

    --
    ‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
    How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
    (C. Moore)

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  • From Jeff Barnett@21:1/5 to All on Tue Oct 15 11:46:38 2024
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    Cg==

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  • From Tilde@21:1/5 to Ross Clark on Tue Oct 15 21:57:55 2024
    Ross Clark wrote:
    another day of unknown origin and insubstantial observance
    may be (sez crystal) a reaction against use of SHOUTY CASE in digital communication
    anyhow, the subject (of 'bicameral' scripts) is interesting;
    see especially the history
    old roman cursive (1st century ad) shows the beginnings of some lower
    case letter-forms
    but bicamerality did not become general in europe until 1300
    and took some time to more or less stabilize in english
    you probably noticed in the text quoted yesterday from the time of henry
    iv, all nouns capitalized (as still in german)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_case#Bicameral_script

    IS THERE A NATIONAL UPPERCASE DAY?

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  • From Christian Weisgerber@21:1/5 to Ross Clark on Sat Oct 19 20:07:28 2024
    On 2024-10-15, Ross Clark <[email protected]> wrote:

    I meant to mention that something like this capitalization practice
    persisted in English at least until late in the 18th century. [...]
    This looks roughly like capitalization of lexical words for emphasis,
    rather than on any grammatical basis.

    My go-to example is the original text of the United States Declaration
    of Independence.

    I think I've also seen it in some French texts from that time.
    There's probably an archive of revolutionary pamphlets somewhere.

    --
    Christian "naddy" Weisgerber [email protected]

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