* (jerryfriedman) <[email protected]>
: Wrote on Sun, 1 Sep 2024 19:27:48 +0000:
On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 8:37:16 +0000, Paul Carmichael wrote:
El Sun, 01 Sep 2024 09:49:19 +1000, Peter Moylan
As a singer, I have been told to de-emphasise any final 's'. InThat's how people speak here. "Los olivos" are "loh'holivoh".
fact, most of the choir is asked to leave it silent.
Also here in el Norte (of New Mexico). People even say "ahina" for
"así", which people from other parts of the Spanish-speaking world
think is funny.
Does the dropping of the final S go back to Greek or Hebrew?
Is there a natural tendency for languages to lose final syllables or
final consonants? This thread has provided examples in Spanish. French
lost a lot of final consonants (in speech, but not in writing) centuries
ago. Some southern Italian dialects have dropped a few final vowels, but
this does not extend to northern dialects or the mainstream version of
the language. Portuguese seems to drop all sorts of things.
Those are all examples in Romance languages. I can't think of any
examples in Germanic languages, and I don't know enough about other
language families.
"trappern", and there are many more examples.
Crossposted to sci.lang, where people might know the answer.
Is there a natural tendency for languages to lose final syllables or
final consonants? This thread has provided examples in Spanish. French
lost a lot of final consonants (in speech, but not in writing) centuries
ago. Some southern Italian dialects have dropped a few final vowels, but
this does not extend to northern dialects or the mainstream version of
the language. Portuguese seems to drop all sorts of things.
Those are all examples in Romance languages. I can't think of any
examples in Germanic languages, and I don't know enough about other
language families.
The well-known example in English is the "dropped g", which reduces an
-ing ending to -@n. But that's not actually the dropping of a consonant,
it's the replacement of one consonant by another. The average English
speaker doesn't notice that, because we're not used to thinking of "ng"
as a single consonant.
Peter Moylan wrote:
Is there a natural tendency for languages to lose final syllables or
final consonants? This thread has provided examples in Spanish. French
lost a lot of final consonants (in speech, but not in writing) centuries
ago. Some southern Italian dialects have dropped a few final vowels, but
this does not extend to northern dialects or the mainstream version of
the language. Portuguese seems to drop all sorts of things.
Those are all examples in Romance languages. I can't think of any
examples in Germanic languages, and I don't know enough about other
language families.
Spoken Danish drops as much as possible. "Synes" => "sys", "trapperne"
"trappern", and there are many more examples.
In dk.kultur.sprog (language) we joked with pronouncing
"socialdemokratiet" with three syllables (it has 8).
The -ing suffix in Modern English is a fusion of two Old English
suffixes, one similar to German -ung & the other to German -end. I'm
not sure of the extent to which that encouraged the development of the current -in'/-ing situation.
Spoken Danish drops as much as possible. "Synes" => "sys", "trapperne"
"trappern", and there are many more examples.
In dk.kultur.sprog (language) we joked with pronouncing
"socialdemokratiet" with three syllables (it has 8).
Isn't there a Scandinavian joke to the effect that Danish drops all
the consonants & one of the others drops all the vowels, so it evens
out?
Is there a natural tendency for languages to lose final syllables or
final consonants?
I can't think of any examples in Germanic languages,
and I don't know enough about other language families.
This thread has provided examples in Spanish.
French lost a lot of final consonants (in speech, but not in
writing) centuries ago.
Some southern Italian dialects have dropped a few final vowels, but
this does not extend to northern dialects or the mainstream version of
the language.
On 2024-09-02, Peter Moylan <[email protected]> wrote:
Some southern Italian dialects have dropped a few final vowels, but
this does not extend to northern dialects or the mainstream version of
the language.
Okay, this opportunity is as good as any to mention something I've
been burning to post ever since I re-read it in Akire/Rosen:
Have you ever wondered why the third person plural present tense
forms of Italian verbs are so strangely stressed, e.g., pàrlano
instead of *parlàno? And where is that -o from anyway? Spanish
doesn't have it and if you look at Latin (-ant), there's no source
for it.
Oh, you haven't wondered? ;-)
Apparently Old Italian had the expected ending -an, so what happened?
The blame goes to the 'to be' word. The Latin first singular "sum"
and third plural "sunt" both ended up regularly as "son" in Old
Italian. But that was the only first person form that didn't have
-o, so eventually it picked one up, producing "sono". Now, since
the first singular and third plural had already merged, "sono" also
became the third pural. And from there the -o spread to the third
plural of all other verbs, but as a latecomer it didn't move the
stress.
It's an intriguing explanation, especially since it includes two
developments that ran in opposite directions: First the addition
of -o from many forms to one, then the spread of -o from one form
to many. I would guess the strong overall tendency toward open
syllables in Italian had something to do with it.
Those are all examples in Romance languages. I can't think of any
examples in Germanic languages, and I don't know enough about other
language families.
Adam Funk wrote:
Spoken Danish drops as much as possible. "Synes" => "sys", "trapperne" >>>=> "trappern", and there are many more examples.
In dk.kultur.sprog (language) we joked with pronouncing
"socialdemokratiet" with three syllables (it has 8).
Isn't there a Scandinavian joke to the effect that Danish drops all
the consonants & one of the others drops all the vowels, so it evens
out?
There may be, but it's wrong. Danes drops anything. Swedes and
Norwegians generally speak clearly.
Adam Funk wrote:
The -ing suffix in Modern English is a fusion of two Old English
suffixes, one similar to German -ung & the other to German -end. I'm
not sure of the extent to which that encouraged the development of the
current -in'/-ing situation.
One might add that the -ung is a suffix that substantivates a verb,
while the -end makes the verbform present particip. There are parallels
in Danish where we have -(n)ing and -ende.
I don't remember all the examples, but when the people in de.etc.sprache.deutsch write spoken German, they write "ham" statt
"haben" - eh, in stead of, that is.
There may be, but it's wrong. Danes drops anything. Swedes and
Norwegians generally speak clearly.
Heh, maybe Athel's version is right & it's Danish vs Portuguese.
This is a very natural process which took place in many areas in Germany, both in the S and in the E; I am not sure whether in the SW as well.
Helmut Richter wrote:
This is a very natural process which took place in many areas in Germany, both in the S and in the E; I am not sure whether in the SW as well.
Your description could be about Danish, except of course for the German words. We pronounce "gennem" as "ge?m", and that applies to the standard pronunciation (rigsdansk). The m is actually just a grunt with closed
lips.
Your description could be about Danish, except of course for the German
words. We pronounce "gennem" as "ge?m", and that applies to the standard
pronunciation (rigsdansk). The m is actually just a grunt with closed
lips.
Isn't all of Danish?
Loss of the final consonant in "of"
and "and"
While my finger was clicking on "Send", my brain realized that the
final consonant of "an" has disappeared when not followed by a
vowel, and the final consonant of the determiner "mine" first
disappeared when not followed by a vowel, then completely.
"Thine" went through a similar process while it was mostly
disappearing".). And "I" used to have a final consonant.
Deletion of final consonants and vowels in a High German dialect
in this folk song as Brahms set it.
Da unten im Tale
Läuft's Wasser so trüb
Und i kann dir's nit sagen
I hab' di so lieb.
More recently, lots of final /r/s have been lost in some dialects
of English, except before a vowel in the next word--
a similar pattern to what happened in French,
Strikingly, Middle English lost final -e and, inconsistenly, -en,
which is intimately tied to the collapse of the declension system.
And lots of the conjugation system?
Also, endings can be lost in specific grammatical contexts while
persisting elsewhere. Since the reduction of vowels in final
syllables to [ə] between Old and Middle High German, there hasn't
been a general change affecting endings in German, I think. However,
people who studied German as a foreign language are probably very
aware of the masculine/neuter singular strong dative -e, e.g. "mit
dem Kind(e)".
Standard German is notably conservative.
Have you ever wondered why the third person plural present tense
forms of Italian verbs are so strangely stressed, e.g., pàrlano
instead of *parlàno? And where is that -o from anyway?
Also, endings can be lost in specific grammatical contexts while
persisting elsewhere. Since the reduction of vowels in final
syllables to [ə] between Old and Middle High German, there hasn't
been a general change affecting endings in German, I think. However,
people who studied German as a foreign language are probably very
aware of the masculine/neuter singular strong dative -e, e.g. "mit
dem Kind(e)".
Christian Weisgerber wrote:
Also, endings can be lost in specific grammatical contexts while persisting elsewhere. Since the reduction of vowels in final
syllables to [ə] between Old and Middle High German, there hasn't
been a general change affecting endings in German, I think. However, people who studied German as a foreign language are probably very
aware of the masculine/neuter singular strong dative -e, e.g. "mit
dem Kind(e)".
I don't know if I *studied* German when learning it in school and later reading in d.e.s.d, but until now I didn't know about that dative form.
I don't think that I have met it in songs either.
Christian Weisgerber wrote:
Also, endings can be lost in specific grammatical contexts while
persisting elsewhere. Since the reduction of vowels in final
syllables to [ə] between Old and Middle High German, there hasn't
been a general change affecting endings in German, I think. However, people who studied German as a foreign language are probably very
aware of the masculine/neuter singular strong dative -e, e.g. "mit
dem Kind(e)".
I don't know if I *studied* German when learning it in school and later reading in d.e.s.d, but until now I didn't know about that dative form.
I don't think that I have met it in songs either.
Where there is free choice between -s and -es genitive, usage of -es has a
slight poetic or archaic touch. The always optional -e dative ending,
however, is pronouncedly archaic; many speakers use it only in idioms,
e.g. bei Lichte besehen ([seen] in the cold light of day), im Grunde
(basically),
Helmut Richter wrote:
Where there is free choice between -s and -es genitive, usage of -es has a
slight poetic or archaic touch. The always optional -e dative ending,
however, is pronouncedly archaic; many speakers use it only in idioms,
e.g. bei Lichte besehen ([seen] in the cold light of day), im Grunde
(basically),
Ah, "In einem kühlen Grunde" - ich habe es gesehen, ... eh, I have seen
it, but I didn't think too much about it.
J. J. Lodder wrote:
Your description could be about Danish, except of course for the German
words. We pronounce "gennem" as "ge?m", and that applies to the standard >>> pronunciation (rigsdansk). The m is actually just a grunt with closed
lips.
Isn't all of Danish?
You may enjoy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykj3Kpm3O0g
You may enjoy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykj3Kpm3O0g
You'll all have to switch to English to prevent the collapse of
society!
Deletion of final consonants and vowels in a High German dialect
Standard German is notably conservative.
As a native Italian, I have to point out that this statement is utterly ridiculous.
Italians attending grammar schools read Dante in the last three years
before university (he died 1321, so he must have written the Divine
Comedy before that) and could understand most of it.
On 2024-09-04, Sergio Gatti <[email protected]> wrote:
Deletion of final consonants and vowels in a High German dialect
Standard German is notably conservative.
As a native Italian, I have to point out that this statement is utterly
ridiculous.
You ripped that out of its context, which I restored above. So:
... compared to German dialects.
Italians attending grammar schools read Dante in the last three years
before university (he died 1321, so he must have written the Divine
Comedy before that) and could understand most of it.
Excellent. With so much widespread exposure to early 14th century
Italian, maybe somebody can tell me which of these conspicuous
features of the Italian verbal system--not inherited from Latin and
notably absent from Spanish--were already in Dante's language and
which are subsequent innovations:
* replacement of the 1PL present indicative by the subjunctive form
* leveling of the same 1PL (-iamo) and 2PL (-iate) present subjunctive
endings across all three conjugations
* leveling of one ending across all persons in the singular of the
present subjunctive
* replacement of 1SG imperfect -ava/-eva/-iva by -avo/-evo/-ivo
(Wait, I think I read that this one happened only in the last 200
years.)
happened to French <s> has a lot of parallels to what's
happening to English <r> in non-rhotic dialects. The [r] is
lost, leaving a long vowel as you say, and then <r> is used to
write that vowel (still mostly non-standard, but there are
examples like "Burma" and "argo"). In the same way the
French [s] was lost, leaving long vowels, and then used
to write those vowels as in "resve".
Actually, you'd better ask such questions in an Italian NG about the
Italian language, like it.cultura.linguistica.italiano.
* replacement of the 1PL present indicative by the subjunctive form
- In old Tuscan, like in many modern Italian dialects, the 1PL present indicative was semo (example from Dante - please note that he chose
freely among the forms available at his time for euphony and rhythm
reasons); the form siamo - since the beginning attested as an indicative
* leveling of one ending across all persons in the singular of the
present subjunctive
- Singular of the present subjunctive. Originally the 1st and 3rd
persons ended in -e (like the Latin endings); the unification to only -i
is very old and derives from the 2nd person.
Also: worth noting is the attraction of the 1st conjugation on all other classes. Different forms are common in Leopardi's prose (benché tu vadi,
che tu non possi) (XIX century) and abbi can be found in Bacchelli (XX century).
* replacement of 1SG imperfect -ava/-eva/-iva by -avo/-evo/-ivo
- The form amavo got widespread very soon in Florentine (end of the XIV century) but it was hardly accepted for a long time in the literary
language; its success got a huge drive through Manzoni in The Betrothed
(XIX century).
I'm a bit sensitive to this because Italian and Spanish are pro-drop >languages, i.e., they omit the subject pronoun, except for emphasis
or disambiguation. Spanish in particular does not distinguish 1SG
and 3SG in the imperfect, conditional, present subjunctive, or
imperfect subjunctive, and Spanish speakers seem to feel little
need to inject pronouns for disambiguation, which can be disorienting
to language learners.
Sat, 14 Sep 2024 15:57:14 -0000 (UTC): Christian Weisgerber <[email protected]> scribeva:
I'm a bit sensitive to this because Italian and Spanish are
pro-drop languages, i.e., they omit the subject pronoun, except for
emphasis or disambiguation. Spanish in particular does not
distinguish 1SG and 3SG in the imperfect, conditional, present
subjunctive, or imperfect subjunctive, and Spanish speakers seem to
feel little need to inject pronouns for disambiguation, which can
be disorienting to language learners.
Portuguese does, digo eu.
On 22/09/24 23:37, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
Sat, 14 Sep 2024 15:57:14 -0000 (UTC): Christian Weisgerber
<[email protected]> scribeva:
I'm a bit sensitive to this because Italian and Spanish are
pro-drop languages, i.e., they omit the subject pronoun, except for
emphasis or disambiguation. Spanish in particular does not
distinguish 1SG and 3SG in the imperfect, conditional, present
subjunctive, or imperfect subjunctive, and Spanish speakers seem to
feel little need to inject pronouns for disambiguation, which can
be disorienting to language learners.
Portuguese does, digo eu.
Irish is intermediate in this respect. First person pronouns are rarely >needed, because the verb endings are distinctive. In second and third
person the verb endings don't help, so pronouns are essential.
I imagine there was a time long ago when it was a pro-drop language, but
then gradually the verb endings were eroded down into a simpler system.
In the Germanic languages, including English, the erosion has gone a lot >further.
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