XPost: alt.usage.english, soc.culture.french

Le 02/08/2024 à 04:22, HenHanna a écrit :

re: names (use of capitals in France)

by the 1980's,  this usage-convention was everywhere
                              -- Guy VINCENT  --  Vincent GUY

When did it begin?

         Was it sometimes used on the covers (and Spines)
of books  in  1920's ???

              1850's ???

I don't think it has to do with books, rather with bureaucracy, and it
must arise from sometimes, but not always, writing the surname first.
Then it becomes necessary to distinguish...

« Marie Valentin : est-ce une femme, un homme ? MARIE Valentin / Marie VALENTIN » - <https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/nom-de-famille-en-toutes-capitales.2792036/>

There is an extensive discussion there, but (apart from a reference to
'Lacombe Lucien' - LACOMBE, Lucien - and therefore the War (it's a
film)) I don't see a date.

I did wonder if it came in with telephone directories, but can find no
support for this.

That's all I know. I know it's not enough.

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XPost: alt.usage.english, soc.culture.french

Ar an dara lá de mí Lúnasa, scríobh Hibou:

Le 02/08/2024 à 04:22, HenHanna a écrit :

re: names (use of capitals in France)

by the 1980's,  this usage-convention was everywhere
                              -- Guy VINCENT  --  Vincent GUY

When did it begin?

         Was it sometimes used on the covers (and Spines)
of books  in  1920's ???

              1850's ???

I don't think it has to do with books, rather with bureaucracy, and it must arise from sometimes, but not always, writing the surname first. Then it becomes necessary to distinguish...

« Marie Valentin : est-ce une femme, un homme ? MARIE Valentin / Marie VALENTIN
» - <https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/nom-de-famille-en-toutes-capitales.2792036/>

There is an extensive discussion there, but (apart from a reference to 'Lacombe
Lucien' - LACOMBE, Lucien - and therefore the War (it's a film)) I don't see a
date.

I did wonder if it came in with telephone directories, but can find no support
for this.

That's all I know. I know it's not enough.

It’s not limited to France. It’s common and very helpful in Japan when names
are written in Roman script, where it is not clear to the non-Japanese-speaker which name is likely to be the surname. I’ve seen it used by Hungarians too, which is also helpful since local convention there is to write the surname first, and it’s sometimes not certain which convention they are using when intereacting with the outside world. It would be helpful if the US adopted it given the heavy surname-as-firstname burden over there.

The question of where the habit came from was raised here, but not answered:

https://forum.macbidouille.com/index.php?showtopic=308196

Nick Nicholas gives some more context here, but again, doesn’t narrow down the
date of the habit:

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Europeans-write-their-surnames-in-capital-letters

I would guess it is a nineteenth century thing that slowly and inconsistently diffused from Bavaria ± France. The fact the Quebecois don’t do it suggests it is more recent than the settlement of that part of the world.

--
‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
(C. Moore)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.usage.english, soc.culture.french

re: names (use of capitals in France)

by the 1980's, this usage-convention was everywhere
-- Guy VINCENT -- Vincent GUY

When did it begin?

Was it sometimes used on the covers (and Spines)
of books in 1920's ???

1850's ???

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.usage.english, soc.culture.french

On 8/2/2024 1:19 AM, Aidan Kehoe wrote:

Ar an dara lá de mí Lúnasa, scríobh Hibou:

> Le 02/08/2024 à 04:22, HenHanna a écrit :
> >
> > re: names (use of capitals in France)
> >
> > by the 1980's,  this usage-convention was everywhere
> >                               -- Guy VINCENT  --  Vincent GUY
> >
> > When did it begin?
> >
> >          Was it sometimes used on the covers (and Spines)
> > of books  in  1920's ???
> >
> >               1850's ???
>
> I don't think it has to do with books, rather with bureaucracy, and it must
> arise from sometimes, but not always, writing the surname first. Then it
> becomes necessary to distinguish...
>
> « Marie Valentin : est-ce une femme, un homme ? MARIE Valentin / Marie VALENTIN
> » -
> <https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/nom-de-famille-en-toutes-capitales.2792036/>
>
> There is an extensive discussion there, but (apart from a reference to 'Lacombe
> Lucien' - LACOMBE, Lucien - and therefore the War (it's a film)) I don't see a
> date.
>
> I did wonder if it came in with telephone directories, but can find no support
> for this.
>
> That's all I know. I know it's not enough.

It’s not limited to France. It’s common and very helpful in Japan when names
are written in Roman script, where it is not clear to the non-Japanese-speaker
which name is likely to be the surname. I’ve seen it used by Hungarians too,
which is also helpful since local convention there is to write the surname first, and it’s sometimes not certain which convention they are using when intereacting with the outside world. It would be helpful if the US adopted it given the heavy surname-as-firstname burden over there.

The question of where the habit came from was raised here, but not answered:

https://forum.macbidouille.com/index.php?showtopic=308196

Nick Nicholas gives some more context here, but again, doesn’t narrow down the
date of the habit:

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Europeans-write-their-surnames-in-capital-letters

I would guess it is a nineteenth century thing that slowly and inconsistently diffused from Bavaria ± France. The fact the Quebecois don’t do it suggests
it is more recent than the settlement of that part of the world.

thanks!


is Robert a common boy's name in France?
is it more common as a surname?

are Vincent and Guy common surnames in France (and other
French-speaking nations) ?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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XPost: alt.usage.english, soc.culture.french

On 8/1/2024 11:02 PM, Hibou wrote:

Le 02/08/2024 à 04:22, HenHanna a écrit :

re: names (use of capitals in France)

by the 1980's,  this usage-convention was everywhere
                               -- Guy VINCENT  --  Vincent GUY

When did it begin?

          Was it sometimes used on the covers (and Spines)
of books  in  1920's ???

               1850's ???

I don't think it has to do with books, rather with bureaucracy, and it
must arise from sometimes, but not always, writing the surname first.
Then it becomes necessary to distinguish...

« Marie Valentin : est-ce une femme, un homme ? MARIE Valentin / Marie VALENTIN » - <https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/nom-de-famille-en-toutes- capitales.2792036/>

There is an extensive discussion there, but (apart from a reference to 'Lacombe Lucien' - LACOMBE, Lucien - and therefore the War (it's a
film)) I don't see a date.

I did wonder if it came in with telephone directories, but can find no support for this.

That's all I know. I know it's not enough.

thanks!

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.usage.english, soc.culture.french

On 8/1/2024 11:02 PM, Hibou wrote:

Le 02/08/2024 à 04:22, HenHanna a écrit :

re: names (use of capitals in France)

by the 1980's,  this usage-convention was everywhere
                               -- Guy VINCENT  --  Vincent GUY

When did it begin?

          Was it sometimes used on the covers (and Spines)
of books  in  1920's ???

               1850's ???

I don't think it has to do with books, rather with bureaucracy, and it
must arise from sometimes, but not always, writing the surname first.
Then it becomes necessary to distinguish...

« Marie Valentin : est-ce une femme, un homme ? MARIE Valentin / Marie VALENTIN » - <https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/nom-de-famille-en-toutes- capitales.2792036/>

There is an extensive discussion there, but (apart from a reference to 'Lacombe Lucien' - LACOMBE, Lucien - and therefore the War (it's a
film)) I don't see a date.

I did wonder if it came in with telephone directories, but can find no support for this.

That's all I know. I know it's not enough.

thanks again!!!

the follwoing is for your amusement....

Bard.Google.com sounding oddly confident about its own speculation:


my prompt________________when did the convention begin?

Historical influence: This practice might have historical roots, possibly stemming from older handwriting styles or specific bureaucratic practices.

When Did Capitalizing French Last Names Begin?

Pinpointing the exact origin of capitalizing French last
names is challenging due to the lack of specific historical records.
However, we can make some educated inferences:

-- Nobility and Formal Documents: The practice likely originated
with the nobility, where family names were seen as symbols of status and lineage. Capitalizing them would have emphasized their importance. This convention then spread to other social classes and became standardized
in formal documents.


-- Printing Press and Standardization: The invention of the
printing press in the 15th century contributed to the standardization of language, including the capitalization of proper nouns. This might have solidified the practice of capitalizing last names.


While these are plausible theories, concrete evidence is scarce. It's
possible that the convention evolved gradually over centuries rather
than starting at a specific point in time.

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* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.usage.english, soc.culture.french

Ar an dara lá de mí Lúnasa, scríobh HenHanna:

is Robert a common boy's name in France?
is it more common as a surname?

are Vincent and Guy common surnames in France (and other French-speaking nations) ?

Yes; no; yes; yes for France, otherwise depends on the nation. Not many in Côte
d’Ivoire.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_pr%C3%A9noms_les_plus_donn%C3%A9s_en_France

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_noms_de_famille_les_plus_courants_en_France

https://forebears.io/ivory-coast/surnames

https://forebears.io/france/surnames

--
‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
(C. Moore)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.usage.english, soc.culture.french

Aidan Kehoe wrote:

« Marie Valentin : est-ce une femme, un homme ? MARIE Valentin / Marie VALENTIN
» - <https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/nom-de-famille-en-toutes-capitales.2792036/>

There is an extensive discussion there, but (apart from a reference to 'Lacombe
Lucien' - LACOMBE, Lucien - and therefore the War (it's a film)) I don't see a
date.

I did wonder if it came in with telephone directories, but can find no support
for this.

That's all I know. I know it's not enough.

It’s not limited to France. It’s common and very helpful in Japan when names
are written in Roman script, where it is not clear to the non-Japanese-speaker
which name is likely to be the surname.

They are using the style in the tv-reports from the Olympic Games.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)