1. Forum
  2. Usenet
  3. SCI.LANG

  • /ru:m/ for Rome and the Gods of the Copybook Headings

    From Aidan Kehoe@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jul 15 13:34:09 2024
    XPost: alt.usage.english

    “We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace.
    Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place,
    But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
    That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in
    Rome.”

    The old pronunciation of <Rome> as /ruːm/ in English was mentioned on a Languagehat thread the other day, https://languagehat.com/war-words/#comment-4604383 . OED2 comments “The pron (ruːm), indicated by the old spelling Room(e) and by the rime with doom etc. was retained by some educated speakers as late as the 19th cent.”

    Kipling came out with it in 1919; I read the poem at intervals and this interval happened to be shortly after the Languagehat thread.

    --
    ‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
    How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
    (C. Moore)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Chris Elvidge@21:1/5 to Aidan Kehoe on Mon Jul 15 15:04:05 2024
    XPost: alt.usage.english

    On 15/07/2024 at 13:34, Aidan Kehoe wrote:

    “We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace.
    Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place,
    But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
    That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in
    Rome.”

    The old pronunciation of <Rome> as /ruːm/ in English was mentioned on a Languagehat thread the other day, https://languagehat.com/war-words/#comment-4604383 . OED2 comments “The pron
    (ruːm), indicated by the old spelling Room(e) and by the rime with doom etc. was retained by some educated speakers as late as the 19th cent.”

    Kipling came out with it in 1919; I read the poem at intervals and this interval happened to be shortly after the Languagehat thread.


    Yes, but Kipling was a poet. Poets have been known to take liberties
    with pronunciation to get their poems to rhyme.
    It seems 'forced rhyming' is a thing. Google 'forced rhyme in poetry'.


    --
    Chris Elvidge, England
    I WILL NOT STRUT AROUND LIKE I OWN THE PLACE

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Aidan Kehoe@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jul 16 08:23:45 2024
    XPost: alt.usage.english

    Ar an cúigiú lá déag de mí Iúil, scríobh jerryfriedman:

    [...] I don't follow, since "come" doesn't rhyme with "doom". Kipling's rhyme looks like an ordinary eye rhyme, though I don't know whether at some point "come" rhymed with some pronunciation of "Rome".

    Well, it certainly doesn’t rhyme with the current pronunciation of <Rome>, and
    it comes much closer to rhyming with <doom>.

    --
    ‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
    How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
    (C. Moore)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Steve Hayes@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jul 17 08:55:48 2024
    XPost: alt.usage.english

    On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 08:23:45 +0100, Aidan Kehoe <[email protected]>
    wrote:


    Ar an cúigiú lá déag de mí Iúil, scríobh jerryfriedman:

    [...] I don't follow, since "come" doesn't rhyme with "doom". Kipling's rhyme looks like an ordinary eye rhyme, though I don't know whether at some point "come" rhymed with some pronunciation of "Rome".

    Well, it certainly doesn’t rhyme with the current pronunciation of <Rome>, and
    it comes much closer to rhyming with <doom>.

    It's just the pronunciation of those who are fraffly well-spoken, and
    rhymes with the way they pronounce "spoken" - in front of their teeth,
    with lips pursed.

    They, of course, accuse those they regard as less well-spoken of
    "swallowing their vowels".


    --
    Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
    Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
    Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
    E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tilde@21:1/5 to Steve Hayes on Thu Jul 18 23:36:25 2024
    XPost: alt.usage.english

    Steve Hayes wrote:
    On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 08:23:45 +0100, Aidan Kehoe <[email protected]>


    It's just the pronunciation of those who are fraffly well-spoken, and

    "fraffly" - had to google that ;)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Steve Hayes@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jul 19 11:40:25 2024
    XPost: alt.usage.english

    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 23:36:25 -0600, Tilde <[email protected]d>
    wrote:

    Steve Hayes wrote:
    On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 08:23:45 +0100, Aidan Kehoe <[email protected]>


    It's just the pronunciation of those who are fraffly well-spoken, and

    "fraffly" - had to google that ;)

    Pommy version of "Let stalk Strine" and "Ah Big Yaws".


    --
    Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
    Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
    Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
    E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bertel Lund Hansen@21:1/5 to Steve Hayes on Fri Jul 19 20:34:05 2024
    XPost: alt.usage.english

    Steve Hayes wrote:

    It's just the pronunciation of those who are fraffly well-spoken, and

    "fraffly" - had to google that ;)

    Pommy version of "Let stalk Strine" and "Ah Big Yaws".

    Good to see that Danes are not the only ones that can compact words into unrecognizable sounds.

    --
    Bertel
    Kolt, Denmark

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)