XPost: alt.usage.english

Re: Names of D&D-type monsters in Japanese
by: Ross Clark - Wed, 26 Jun 2024 15:04


On 27/06/2024 1:16 a.m., Adam Funk wrote:

As I mentioned in another thread a few weeks ago, I've been watching
the _Delicious in Dungeon_ anime, with Japanese sound & English
subtitles. I noticed that a lot of the monsters & some other bits of
D&D-ish jargon are clearly Japanese adaptations of English words. I
clearly heard similar-sounding words for "undine" & "dungeon", and
I've also collected translations from the list of episode titles.

It makes sense to me that they would adapt words for monsters from
"Western traditions":

basilisk = Bajirisuku
orcs = Ōku
kelpie = Kerupī
dryad = Doraiado
cockatrice = Kokatorisu
harpy = Hāpī
griffin = Gurifin
golem = Gōremu

and real foods of Western origin:

omelet = Omuretsu
sorbet = Sorube

But I'm surprised there aren't native Japanese words for some of
these:

tentacles = Tentakurusu
red dragon = Reddo Doragon [aren't dragons in Japanese tradition?
"reddo" looks suspicious]
sea serpent = Shīsāpento
shapeshifter = Sheipu Shifutā [could be translated]
ice golem = Aisu Gōremu [I get golem but "aisu" looks suspicious]

dumplings = Danpuringu [why not "gyoza"?]
bacon and eggs = Bēkon'Eggu [I get bacon but "egg" is "Tamago"
elsewhere]

Comments, ideas?

These English borrowings are just naming monsters, after all -- they're
not replacing existing Japanese words.


More generally, borrowed words often happily coexist with native words, sometimes with a distinction of meaning. I recommend a little book by
Akira Miura, _English Loanwords in Japanese: A Selection_ (Tuttle,
1979), which explains a lot of these.


Example: Japanese has /gyūnyū/ for 'cow's milk', but also /miruku/.

"...in the usage of many Japanese...gyūnyū is fresh milk whereas miruku
is either warm milk served with sugar at a coffee shop or powdered milk,
or condensed milk sold in a can"


----------- i'd have expected Ross Clark (a linguist) to
make a comment along the lines of...

in English... (pig, pork)

Cow (English) - Boeuf (French, meat)
Sheep (English) - Mouton (French, meat)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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XPost: alt.usage.english

how old is this Adam Funk? 40's ? 50's ???

does he always sound Stupid?

But I'm surprised there aren't native Japanese words for some of
these:

Re: Names of D&D-type monsters in Japanese
 by: Ross Clark - Wed, 26 Jun 2024 15:04

On 27/06/2024 1:16 a.m., Adam Funk wrote:

As I mentioned in another thread a few weeks ago, I've been watching
the _Delicious in Dungeon_ anime, with Japanese sound & English
subtitles. I noticed that a lot of the monsters & some other bits of D&D-ish jargon are clearly Japanese adaptations of English words. I clearly heard similar-sounding words for "undine" & "dungeon", and
I've also collected translations from the list of episode titles.

It makes sense to me that they would adapt words for monsters from "Western traditions":

   basilisk = Bajirisuku
   orcs = Ōku
   kelpie = Kerupī
   dryad = Doraiado
   cockatrice = Kokatorisu
   harpy = Hāpī
   griffin = Gurifin
   golem = Gōremu

and real foods of Western origin:

   omelet = Omuretsu
   sorbet = Sorube

But I'm surprised there aren't native Japanese words for some of
these:

   tentacles = Tentakurusu
   red dragon = Reddo Doragon [aren't dragons in Japanese tradition?
                               "reddo" looks suspicious]
   sea serpent = Shīsāpento
   shapeshifter = Sheipu Shifutā [could be translated]
   ice golem = Aisu Gōremu [I get golem but "aisu" looks suspicious]

   dumplings = Danpuringu [why not "gyoza"?]
   bacon and eggs = Bēkon'Eggu [I get bacon but "egg" is "Tamago"
                                elsewhere]

Comments, ideas?

These English borrowings are just naming monsters, after all -- they're
not replacing existing Japanese words.

More generally, borrowed words often happily coexist with native words, sometimes with a distinction of meaning. I recommend a little book by
Akira Miura, _English Loanwords in Japanese: A Selection_ (Tuttle,
1979), which explains a lot of these.

Example: Japanese has /gyūnyū/ for 'cow's milk', but also /miruku/.

"...in the usage of many Japanese...gyūnyū is fresh milk whereas miruku
is either warm milk served with sugar at a coffee shop or powdered milk,
or condensed milk sold in a can"

this explanation sounds outdated by 30+ years.

----------- i'd have expected  Ross Clark (a linguist)  to
             make a comment along the lines of...

             in English... (pig, pork)

Cow (English) - Boeuf (French, meat)

Sheep (English) - Mouton (French, meat)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 28/06/2024 12:05 p.m., HenHanna wrote:

how old is this Adam Funk?   40's  ?    50's ???

does he always sound Stupid?

  > But I'm surprised there aren't native Japanese words for some of
  > these:

Re: Names of D&D-type monsters in Japanese
  by: Ross Clark - Wed, 26 Jun 2024 15:04


On 27/06/2024 1:16 a.m., Adam Funk wrote:

As I mentioned in another thread a few weeks ago, I've been watching
the _Delicious in Dungeon_ anime, with Japanese sound & English
subtitles. I noticed that a lot of the monsters & some other bits of
D&D-ish jargon are clearly Japanese adaptations of English words. I
clearly heard similar-sounding words for "undine" & "dungeon", and
I've also collected translations from the list of episode titles.
;
It makes sense to me that they would adapt words for monsters from
"Western traditions":
;
;   basilisk = Bajirisuku
;   orcs = Ōku
;   kelpie = Kerupī
;   dryad = Doraiado
;   cockatrice = Kokatorisu
;   harpy = Hāpī
;   griffin = Gurifin
;   golem = Gōremu
;
and real foods of Western origin:
;
;   omelet = Omuretsu
;   sorbet = Sorube
;
;
But I'm surprised there aren't native Japanese words for some of
these:
;
;   tentacles = Tentakurusu
;   red dragon = Reddo Doragon [aren't dragons in Japanese tradition?
;                               "reddo" looks suspicious]
;   sea serpent = Shīsāpento
;   shapeshifter = Sheipu Shifutā [could be translated]
;   ice golem = Aisu Gōremu [I get golem but "aisu" looks suspicious] >>  >
;   dumplings = Danpuringu [why not "gyoza"?]
;   bacon and eggs = Bēkon'Eggu [I get bacon but "egg" is "Tamago"
;                                elsewhere] >>  >
;
Comments, ideas?
;

These English borrowings are just naming monsters, after all -- they're
not replacing existing Japanese words.


More generally, borrowed words often happily coexist with native words,
sometimes with a distinction of meaning. I recommend a little book by
Akira Miura, _English Loanwords in Japanese: A Selection_ (Tuttle,
1979), which explains a lot of these.


Example: Japanese has /gyūnyū/ for 'cow's milk', but also /miruku/.

"...in the usage of many Japanese...gyūnyū is fresh milk whereas miruku
is either warm milk served with sugar at a coffee shop or powdered milk,
or condensed milk sold in a can"

this explanation  sounds  outdated by 30+ years.

Could well be. Note the publication date of the book.
But how does it "sound outdated"? Because we now have a better
explanation? or because Japanese usage has changed? Miura does note that
some Japanese are actually using miruku in place of gyūnyū,

----------- i'd have expected  Ross Clark (a linguist)  to
              make a comment along the lines of...

              in English... (pig, pork)

       Cow (English) - Boeuf (French, meat)

       Sheep (English) - Mouton (French, meat)

Yes, and no doubt some people asked "Why should we borrow a French word
when we already have a perfectly good word for sheep?"

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.usage.english

On 6/28/2024 3:38 AM, Ross Clark wrote:

On 28/06/2024 12:05 p.m., HenHanna wrote:

how old is this Adam Funk?   40's  ?    50's ???

does he always sound Stupid?

;  > But I'm surprised there aren't native Japanese words for some of
;  > these:

Re: Names of D&D-type monsters in Japanese
  by: Ross Clark - Wed, 26 Jun 2024 15:04


On 27/06/2024 1:16 a.m., Adam Funk wrote:

As I mentioned in another thread a few weeks ago, I've been watching >>>  > the _Delicious in Dungeon_ anime, with Japanese sound & English
subtitles. I noticed that a lot of the monsters & some other bits of >>>  > D&D-ish jargon are clearly Japanese adaptations of English words. I
clearly heard similar-sounding words for "undine" & "dungeon", and
I've also collected translations from the list of episode titles.
;
It makes sense to me that they would adapt words for monsters from
"Western traditions":
;
;   basilisk = Bajirisuku
;   orcs = Ōku
;   kelpie = Kerupī
;   dryad = Doraiado
;   cockatrice = Kokatorisu
;   harpy = Hāpī
;   griffin = Gurifin
;   golem = Gōremu
;
and real foods of Western origin:
;
;   omelet = Omuretsu
;   sorbet = Sorube
;
;
But I'm surprised there aren't native Japanese words for some of
these:
;
;   tentacles = Tentakurusu
;   red dragon = Reddo Doragon [aren't dragons in Japanese tradition? >>>  >                               "reddo" looks suspicious]
;   sea serpent = Shīsāpento
;   shapeshifter = Sheipu Shifutā [could be translated]
;   ice golem = Aisu Gōremu [I get golem but "aisu" looks suspicious] >>>  >
;   dumplings = Danpuringu [why not "gyoza"?]
;   bacon and eggs = Bēkon'Eggu [I get bacon but "egg" is "Tamago"
;                                elsewhere]
;
;
Comments, ideas?
;

These English borrowings are just naming monsters, after all -- they're
not replacing existing Japanese words.


More generally, borrowed words often happily coexist with native words,
sometimes with a distinction of meaning. I recommend a little book by
Akira Miura, _English Loanwords in Japanese: A Selection_ (Tuttle,
1979), which explains a lot of these.


Example: Japanese has /gyūnyū/ for 'cow's milk', but also /miruku/.

"...in the usage of many Japanese...gyūnyū is fresh milk whereas miruku >>> is either warm milk served with sugar at a coffee shop or powdered milk, >>> or condensed milk sold in a can"

this explanation  sounds  outdated by 30+ years.

Could well be. Note the publication date of the book.
But how does it "sound outdated"? Because we now have a better
explanation? or because Japanese usage has changed? Miura does note that
some Japanese are actually using miruku in place of gyūnyū,

----------- i'd have expected  Ross Clark (a linguist)  to
              make a comment along the lines of...

              in English... (pig, pork)

       Cow (English) - Boeuf (French, meat)

       Sheep (English) - Mouton (French, meat)

Yes, and no doubt some people asked "Why should we borrow a French word
when we already have a perfectly good word for sheep?"

maybe there's a better example than Cow and Beef.



maybe 40 years ago, the word milk ("miruku") still had
some Foreign-ness in Jp

In the last 20 years, the difference is not Foreign-ness

milk ("miruku") became generic and includes Goat-milk
and maybe partially artificial stuff

whereas: Gyuunyuu became more narrowly-defined.



＞「ミルク」と「牛乳」の違いについて教えてください。

「ミルク」は、英語「milk」由来の外来語。 牛や山羊などの家畜の乳。その他の哺乳類の乳。各種の乳状の液体。


「牛乳」は、牛の乳。


日本の法令上、「牛乳」という文字を使えるのは下記の飲料だけ。

「牛乳」 …… 直接飲用に供する目的又はこれを原料とした食品の製造若しくは加工の用に供する目的で販売する牛の乳

「特別牛乳」 …… 牛乳であって特別牛乳として販売するもの

「成分調整牛乳」 …… 生乳から乳脂肪分その他の成分の一部を除去したもの

「低脂肪牛乳」 …… 成分調整牛乳であって、乳脂肪分を除去したもののうち、無脂肪牛
乳以外のもの

「無脂肪牛乳」 …… 成分調整牛乳であって、ほとんどすべての乳脂肪分を除去したもの

これ以外は「牛乳」と呼べない。


バターや脱脂乳その他の乳製品を使用したものは「加工乳」。

ビタミンやミネラル、コーヒー・紅茶や果汁などを使用したものは「乳飲料」。

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