XPost: alt.usage.english

On 2024-06-08, Peter Moylan <[email protected]> wrote:

At various times I have been in places where my command of the local
language was somewhere between zero and negligible. That must happen to anyone who has done a bit of travelling. How does one deal with this?

Personally, I bulldoze through in English. That has worked quite
well, but, English-majority countries aside, my travel has admittedly
been limited to major cities and locations of tourism and higher
education. I would expect poor results when, say, backpacking
through the Andes.

My own approach is meek. I avoid saying anything at all. Where that is
not possible, I'll at least make sure to work out how to say "Do you
speak English or French?" in the local language,

You can shortcut that by simply speaking English (or French) right
away.

(Special case: I have worked out how to say "I don't speak X" for
a number of different values of X.)

I once replied "no hablo español" when addressed in Spanish in the
street in Miami, but it's pragmatically weird, since it seems to
be a self-contradictory statement. Also, if you don't speak the
language, your utterance may well come out unintelligible.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber [email protected]

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.usage.english

On 09/06/24 07:19, Christian Weisgerber wrote:

On 2024-06-08, Peter Moylan <[email protected]> wrote:

(Special case: I have worked out how to say "I don't speak X" for a
number of different values of X.)

I once replied "no hablo español" when addressed in Spanish in the
street in Miami, but it's pragmatically weird, since it seems to be a self-contradictory statement. Also, if you don't speak the language,
your utterance may well come out unintelligible.

Once, when I was a child, I was left to wait in the local priest's
living room while my parents had business with him. I saw that he had a
"Learn Italian" record, so I played it. The record immediately went into teaching you, by frequent repetition, to say "Io parlo Italiano". Even at
that young age I could see the flaw in that approach. The first lesson
should have been "Non parlo italiano".

"Buongiorno. Mi puoi indicare la fermata dell'autobus?"
"Io Parlo italiano."
"Bene. Dov'è la fermata dell'autobus?"
"Io Parlo italiano."

The only time I was in Italy I had a more practical approach. I had
purchased a bus ticket at the railway station, but when I came out of
the station I couldn't see any sign for a bus. So I approached a small
group of men, held out my ticket, and said "Dov'è?". One of them pointed
to the ground and said "Qui." Perfect communication!

--
Peter Moylan [email protected] http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.usage.english

On 09/06/24 11:56, jerryfriedman wrote:

Peter Moylan wrote:

Once, when I was a child, I was left to wait in the local priest's
living room while my parents had business with him. I saw that he
had a "Learn Italian" record,

Was he expecting a significant promotion?

Not much chance of that. In fact he might have been the one who, years
later, was convicted of molesting altar boys. (I too was an altar boy,
but apparently not attractive enough, so I didn't know what was going on.)

Our town had a lot of post-war immigrants, and Italians were in the
majority. The younger ones quickly learnt English, but many of their
parents never did.

The only time I was in Italy I had a more practical approach. I had
purchased a bus ticket at the railway station, but when I came out
of the station I couldn't see any sign for a bus. So I approached a
small group of men, held out my ticket, and said "Dov'è?". One of
them pointed to the ground and said "Qui." Perfect communication!

And without any risk of your Italian being overestimated. But are
you sure you didn't say "Dove"?

I'm not sure how I learnt that word, but I did know that it had two
syllables.

As a student at Melbourne University, I was living right next to an Italian-speaking area, so I picked up a few Italian words by osmosis. In
fact I needed some of those words for shopping. The shop doors said "Si
parle inglese", but they lied.

--
Peter Moylan [email protected] http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.usage.english

jerryfriedman hat am 09.06.2024 um 14:53 geschrieben:

Peter Moylan wrote:

I'm not sure how I learnt that word, but I did know that it had two
syllables.

What word? As far as I know, Italian "dove" is pronounced exactly
like "Dov'è".

I know better, as I should when we talk about my native language.

Dove - spoken accent on "o".
Dov'è (actually two words fused together: "dove è", but we never
separate the two "e") - spoken accent on "e".
I won't elaborate on the openness and closeness of the "e".

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.usage.english

On 09/06/24 22:53, jerryfriedman wrote:

Peter Moylan wrote:

On 09/06/24 11:56, jerryfriedman wrote:

Peter Moylan wrote:

The only time I was in Italy I had a more practical approach. I
had purchased a bus ticket at the railway station, but when I
came out of the station I couldn't see any sign for a bus. So I
approached a small group of men, held out my ticket, and said
"Dov'è?". One of them pointed to the ground and said "Qui."
Perfect communication!

And without any risk of your Italian being overestimated. But
are you sure you didn't say "Dove"?

I'm not sure how I learnt that word, but I did know that it had
two syllables.

What word? As far as I know, Italian "dove" is pronounced exactly
like "Dov'è".

OK, I didn't (and still don't) know enough Italian to understand your
point. But, as Silvano pointed out, it didn't matter anyway.

As a student at Melbourne University, I was living right next to
an Italian-speaking area, so I picked up a few Italian words by
osmosis. In fact I needed some of those words for shopping. The
shop doors said "Si parle inglese", but they lied.

That's remarkable. They couldn't hire somebody, maybe a younger
family member, who spoke English?

Also an "English spoken here" sign would have been more convincing.

Yes, that always amused me. They apparently didn't know enough English
to be able to write the sign in English. And most of the time it didn't
matter, because so many of their customers understood Italian.

Your mention of a younger family member reminds me of a time I was
driving around an agricultural part of California, basically just to get
a feel for the country. (Actually, that was the trip when I got a kick
from discovering Cannery Row.) When it was time to have some lunch, I
found a cantina in the middle of nowhere, but discovered that nobody
there understood English. No problem. The owner sent for his daughter,
and she explained to us how to order a meal.

--
Peter Moylan [email protected] http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.usage.english

On 2024-06-09, jerryfriedman <[email protected]> wrote:

What word? As far as I know, Italian "dove" is pronounced exactly
like "Dov'è".

With my nonexistent Italian, I'd guess "dove" /'dove/ vs. "dov'è"
/do'vɛ/.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber [email protected]

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.usage.english

Christian Weisgerber hat am 09.06.2024 um 19:09 geschrieben:

On 2024-06-09, jerryfriedman <[email protected]> wrote:

What word? As far as I know, Italian "dove" is pronounced exactly
like "Dov'è".

With my nonexistent Italian, I'd guess "dove" /'dove/ vs. "dov'è"
/do'vɛ/.

Perfect guess!

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)