"The oddity of the unexpected mingling of the mechanical pianos and
automatic pans of the streets and nocturnal taverns of Madrid served as
my pretext for composing this piece..."

This is Igor Stravinsky commenting on his Study for Pianola: "Madrid".
It's quoted in the liner notes to an old LP, which are clearly
translated from French.
The reference must be to some kind of mechanical musical device. I can't
find any use of "automatic pan(s)" in English except in connection with cooking.

Another translation of the same passage that I found online renders it
as "orchestrinas". "Orchestrina" or "orchestrion" is an English term for various such things, but the ones shown are all organ-like, and I can't
see any of them being described as "pans". (In fact the only musical use
of "pan" I can think of is for steel-band instruments, which would not
fit here.)

I'd like to know (i) what the French text said that was so translated;
(ii) what sort of instrument/device Stravinsky was referring to.

The passage is probably from an autobiographical work (perhaps
_Chroniques de ma vie_), but I don't have access to any of those.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Ross Clark <[email protected]> wrote:

"The oddity of the unexpected mingling of the mechanical pianos and
automatic pans of the streets and nocturnal taverns of Madrid served as
my pretext for composing this piece..."

This is Igor Stravinsky commenting on his Study for Pianola: "Madrid".
It's quoted in the liner notes to an old LP, which are clearly
translated from French.
The reference must be to some kind of mechanical musical device. I can't
find any use of "automatic pan(s)" in English except in connection with cooking.

Another translation of the same passage that I found online renders it
as "orchestrinas". "Orchestrina" or "orchestrion" is an English term for various such things, but the ones shown are all organ-like, and I can't
see any of them being described as "pans". (In fact the only musical use
of "pan" I can think of is for steel-band instruments, which would not
fit here.)

I'd like to know (i) what the French text said that was so translated;
(ii) what sort of instrument/device Stravinsky was referring to.

The passage is probably from an autobiographical work (perhaps
_Chroniques de ma vie_), but I don't have access to any of those.

Could it have something to do with Pan pipes?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Wed, 20 Dec 2023 11:28:32 +1300: Ross Clark <[email protected]>
scribeva:

"The oddity of the unexpected mingling of the mechanical pianos and
automatic pans of the streets and nocturnal taverns of Madrid served as
my pretext for composing this piece..."

Automatic drums of a 'draaiorgel'? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ6CE9NG898&t=300
(What's that in English? Barrel organ, roller organ, crank organ, says Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel_organ . Never heard of
those.)

This is Igor Stravinsky commenting on his Study for Pianola: "Madrid".
It's quoted in the liner notes to an old LP, which are clearly
translated from French.
The reference must be to some kind of mechanical musical device. I can't
find any use of "automatic pan(s)" in English except in connection with >cooking.

--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Ar an fichiú lá de mí na Nollaig, scríobh Ross Clark:

[...] I'd like to know (i) what the French text said that was so translated; (ii) what sort of instrument/device Stravinsky was referring to.

(i) « Je me fis, de mon côté, un plaisir de payer mon tribut à cette tradition.
La cocasserie des mélanges inattendus exhibés par les pianos mécaniques et les
casseroles automatiques dans les rues de Madrid et dans ses petites tavernes nocturnes, me servit de prétexte pour cette pièce que je composai spécialement
pour le pianola et qui ne fut éditée que sous forme de rouleau pour cet instrument mécanique par Æolian, à Londres.»

Igor Stravinsky: L’homme et son œuvre By Michel Philippot. This is itself a citation, likely from Chroniques de ma vie, but I can’t access the reference to
check.

https://books.google.ie/books?id=aJeDDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT192&lpg=PT192&dq=%22et+dans+ses+petites+tavernes%22&source=bl&ots=4r5Vtrgfjr&sig=ACfU3U0RgQZv916bkOyNBSQfOn35JoFtwQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi52raAyp6DAxUJB8AKHa36APYQ6AF6BAgOEAM#v=onepage&q=%22et%20dans%
20ses%20petites%20tavernes%22&f=false


(ii) From the Trésor de la langue française informatisé, entry for casserolée:

B.− P. anal.
1. Péjoratif
a) [P. réf. au bruit désagréable] Mauvais piano. « Les pianos mécaniques et les
casseroles automatiques dans les rues de Madrid (I. Stravinsky, Chroniques de ma vie,1931, p. 150). »

https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/casserol%C3%A9e

So a bad piano. It’s not a usage I’ve come across but it’s been years since
I’ve took much interest in French. If I were going to bet I’d say it’s old-fashioned slang.

https://en.langenscheidt.com/french-german/casserole lists without comment Klavier (piano) as a translation in this meaning, though marks the (French) usage as colloquial.

--
‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
(C. Moore)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 20/12/2023 9:58 p.m., Ruud Harmsen wrote:

Wed, 20 Dec 2023 11:28:32 +1300: Ross Clark <[email protected]>
scribeva:

"The oddity of the unexpected mingling of the mechanical pianos and
automatic pans of the streets and nocturnal taverns of Madrid served as
my pretext for composing this piece..."

Automatic drums of a 'draaiorgel'? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ6CE9NG898&t=300
(What's that in English? Barrel organ, roller organ, crank organ, says Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel_organ . Never heard of those.)

"Barrel organ" is the common expression I've seen. I have some little
records (EPs) of "draaiorgel" -- the Netherlands seems to be famous for
them -- and long ago I remember visiting a whole museum of them in (I
think) Utrecht.

This is Igor Stravinsky commenting on his Study for Pianola: "Madrid".
It's quoted in the liner notes to an old LP, which are clearly
translated from French.
The reference must be to some kind of mechanical musical device. I can't
find any use of "automatic pan(s)" in English except in connection with
cooking.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 20/12/2023 5:13 p.m., Antonio Marques wrote:

Ross Clark <[email protected]> wrote:

"The oddity of the unexpected mingling of the mechanical pianos and
automatic pans of the streets and nocturnal taverns of Madrid served as
my pretext for composing this piece..."

This is Igor Stravinsky commenting on his Study for Pianola: "Madrid".
It's quoted in the liner notes to an old LP, which are clearly
translated from French.
The reference must be to some kind of mechanical musical device. I can't
find any use of "automatic pan(s)" in English except in connection with
cooking.

Another translation of the same passage that I found online renders it
as "orchestrinas". "Orchestrina" or "orchestrion" is an English term for
various such things, but the ones shown are all organ-like, and I can't
see any of them being described as "pans". (In fact the only musical use
of "pan" I can think of is for steel-band instruments, which would not
fit here.)

I'd like to know (i) what the French text said that was so translated;
(ii) what sort of instrument/device Stravinsky was referring to.

The passage is probably from an autobiographical work (perhaps
_Chroniques de ma vie_), but I don't have access to any of those.

Could it have something to do with Pan pipes?

Perhaps. That would fit with the organ-like devices, each pipe producing
one note.

I also came across this in OED:

pan, n.5
A Chinese percussion instrument used for beating time, made of a number
of wedge-shaped pieces of wood connected by a cord, one of which is
struck against the others by flicking the wrist. [1874-]

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 21/12/2023 7:02 a.m., Aidan Kehoe wrote:

Ar an fichiú lá de mí na Nollaig, scríobh Ross Clark:

> [...] I'd like to know (i) what the French text said that was so translated;
> (ii) what sort of instrument/device Stravinsky was referring to.

(i) « Je me fis, de mon côté, un plaisir de payer mon tribut à cette tradition.
La cocasserie des mélanges inattendus exhibés par les pianos mécaniques et les
casseroles automatiques dans les rues de Madrid et dans ses petites tavernes nocturnes, me servit de prétexte pour cette pièce que je composai spécialement
pour le pianola et qui ne fut éditée que sous forme de rouleau pour cet instrument mécanique par Æolian, à Londres.»

Igor Stravinsky: L’homme et son œuvre By Michel Philippot. This is itself a
citation, likely from Chroniques de ma vie, but I can’t access the reference to
check.

https://books.google.ie/books?id=aJeDDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT192&lpg=PT192&dq=%22et+dans+ses+petites+tavernes%22&source=bl&ots=4r5Vtrgfjr&sig=ACfU3U0RgQZv916bkOyNBSQfOn35JoFtwQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi52raAyp6DAxUJB8AKHa36APYQ6AF6BAgOEAM#v=onepage&q=%22et%20dans%

20ses%20petites%20tavernes%22&f=false

(ii) From the Trésor de la langue française informatisé, entry for casserolée:

B.− P. anal.
1. Péjoratif
a) [P. réf. au bruit désagréable] Mauvais piano. « Les pianos mécaniques et les
casseroles automatiques dans les rues de Madrid (I. Stravinsky, Chroniques de ma vie,1931, p. 150). »

https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/casserol%C3%A9e

So a bad piano. It’s not a usage I’ve come across but it’s been years since
I’ve took much interest in French. If I were going to bet I’d say it’s old-fashioned slang.

https://en.langenscheidt.com/french-german/casserole lists without comment Klavier (piano) as a translation in this meaning, though marks the (French) usage as colloquial.

Great! Thank you.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2023-12-19, Ross Clark <[email protected]> wrote:

"The oddity of the unexpected mingling of the mechanical pianos and
automatic pans of the streets and nocturnal taverns of Madrid served as
my pretext for composing this piece..."

That has to be some sort of percussion.

Another translation of the same passage that I found online renders it
as "orchestrinas". "Orchestrina" or "orchestrion" is an English term for various such things, but the ones shown are all organ-like, and I can't
see any of them being described as "pans".

According to the various Wikipedia articles, orchestrions also had
percussion instruments.

| En Espagne, notamment à Madrid, des pianos mécaniques ambulants
| à manivelle, étaient souvent transportés sur charrettes à âne.
| De sonorité assez aigrelette très originale et caractéristique,
| bien que couvrant une tessiture complète jusqu'aux basses, ils
| étaient renforcés dans les aiguës, à l'instar de certains orgues
| limonaires, de petits xylophones mécaniques jouant simultanément https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_m%C3%A9canique#Organillo_en_Espagne

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber [email protected]

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Aidan Kehoe wrote:

Ar an fichiú lá de mí na Nollaig, scríobh Ross Clark:

> [...] I'd like to know (i) what the French text said that was so translated;
> (ii) what sort of instrument/device Stravinsky was referring to.

(i) « Je me fis, de mon côté, un plaisir de payer mon tribut à cette tradition.
La cocasserie des mélanges inattendus exhibés par les pianos mécaniques et les
casseroles automatiques dans les rues de Madrid et dans ses petites tavernes nocturnes, me servit de prétexte pour cette pièce que je composai spécialement
pour le pianola et qui ne fut éditée que sous forme de rouleau pour cet instrument mécanique par Æolian, à Londres.»

Igor Stravinsky: L’homme et son œuvre By Michel Philippot. This is itself a
citation, likely from Chroniques de ma vie, but I can’t access the reference to
check.

https://books.google.ie/books?id=aJeDDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT192&lpg=PT192&dq=%22et+dans+ses+petites+tavernes%22&source=bl&ots=4r5Vtrgfjr&sig=ACfU3U0RgQZv916bkOyNBSQfOn35JoFtwQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi52raAyp6DAxUJB8AKHa36APYQ6AF6BAgOEAM#v=onepage&q=%22et%20dans%

20ses%20petites%20tavernes%22&f=false

(ii) From the Trésor de la langue française informatisé, entry for casserolée:

B.− P. anal.
1. Péjoratif
a) [P. réf. au bruit désagréable] Mauvais piano. « Les pianos mécaniques et les
casseroles automatiques dans les rues de Madrid (I. Stravinsky, Chroniques de ma vie,1931, p. 150). »

https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/casserol%C3%A9e

So a bad piano. It’s not a usage I’ve come across but it’s been years since

Perhaps not "a bad piano" but "a badly played
piano"? I believe this is the piece in question
(which I rather like)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J14cJMZkHYE
Igor Stravinsky - Etude pour Pianola

and the text there further says

""Etude pour Pianola"(Этюд для Пианолы, 1917) is
music for the mechanical piano (player piano),
not for human. This piece was first published on
music roll in 1921 and the premier at Aeolian
Hall in London. Stravinsky visited Madrid in 1916
and was influenced by Spanish music. This etude
is also, and his autobiography states that "I
was influenced by the noise of the player piano
and orchestrion (music machine) played in the
streets and taverns".

which goes along with the wiki page for the piece

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etude_pour_pianola
...
As Stravinsky was finishing Les Noces, he traveled
to Madrid and became inspired by Spanish music for
future compositions. This étude was commissioned
by Aeolian Company, as a demonstration piece for
their new sensible-to-dynamic-shadings player
piano. ... The étude was retitled "Madrid" ..."

Hmmm. So, the cacophony he heard was the
inspiration? Well, this is Igor "Rites of Spring"
Stravinsky ;)

I’ve took much interest in French. If I were going to bet I’d say it’s old-fashioned slang.

https://en.langenscheidt.com/french-german/casserole lists without comment Klavier (piano) as a translation in this meaning, though marks the (French) usage as colloquial.

There is one other itme of interest in that youtube
ext: "orchestrion (music machine)"

What the heck is that? And how many times did Stravinsky
talk about this darn etude like that?

Anyway

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrion

"Orchestrion is a generic name for a machine
that plays music and is designed to sound
like an orchestra or band."

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On 21/12/2023 6:24 p.m., Tilde wrote:

Aidan Kehoe wrote:

  Ar an fichiú lá de mí na Nollaig, scríobh Ross Clark:

  > [...] I'd like to know (i) what the French text said that was so
translated;
  > (ii) what sort of instrument/device Stravinsky was referring to.

(i) « Je me fis, de mon côté, un plaisir de payer mon tribut à cette
tradition.
La cocasserie des mélanges inattendus exhibés par les pianos
mécaniques et les
casseroles automatiques dans les rues de Madrid et dans ses petites
tavernes
nocturnes, me servit de prétexte pour cette pièce que je composai
spécialement
pour le pianola et qui ne fut éditée que sous forme de rouleau pour cet
instrument mécanique par Æolian, à Londres.»

Igor Stravinsky: L’homme et son œuvre By Michel Philippot. This is
itself a
citation, likely from Chroniques de ma vie, but I can’t access the
reference to
check.

https://books.google.ie/books?id=aJeDDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT192&lpg=PT192&dq=%22et+dans+ses+petites+tavernes%22&source=bl&ots=4r5Vtrgfjr&sig=ACfU3U0RgQZv916bkOyNBSQfOn35JoFtwQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi52raAyp6DAxUJB8AKHa36APYQ6AF6BAgOEAM#v=onepage&q=%22et%20dans%

20ses%20petites%20tavernes%22&f=false

(ii) From the Trésor de la langue française informatisé, entry for
casserolée:

B.− P. anal.
1. Péjoratif
a) [P. réf. au bruit désagréable] Mauvais piano. « Les pianos
mécaniques et les
casseroles automatiques dans les rues de Madrid (I. Stravinsky,
Chroniques de
ma vie,1931, p. 150). »

https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/casserol%C3%A9e

So a bad piano. It’s not a usage I’ve come across but it’s been years >> since

Perhaps not "a bad piano" but "a badly played
piano"? I believe this is the piece in question
(which I rather like)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J14cJMZkHYE
Igor Stravinsky - Etude pour Pianola

and the text there further says

""Etude pour Pianola"(Этюд для Пианолы, 1917) is
music for the mechanical piano (player piano),
not for human. This piece was first published on
music roll in 1921 and the premier at Aeolian
Hall in London. Stravinsky visited Madrid in 1916
and was influenced by Spanish music. This etude
is also, and his autobiography states that "I
was influenced by the noise of the player piano
and orchestrion (music machine) played in the
streets and taverns".

which goes along with the wiki page for the piece

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etude_pour_pianola
...
As Stravinsky was finishing Les Noces, he traveled
to Madrid and became inspired by Spanish music for
future compositions. This étude was commissioned
by Aeolian Company, as a demonstration piece for
their new sensible-to-dynamic-shadings player
piano. ... The étude was retitled "Madrid" ..."

Hmmm. So, the cacophony he heard was the
inspiration? Well, this is Igor "Rites of Spring"
Stravinsky ;)

Another thing that puzzled me about the record is that one Rex Lawson is
listed as _performer_ of the piece ("Madrid") -- on pianola! I thought Stravinsky (who created the original roll) would have been the
performer. Did Lawson just pump the pedals? Or did he perhaps perform an
exact transcription of the pianola version on a regular piano?
This article seems to give some idea:

http://rexlawson.org/english/biog.html

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Thu, 21 Dec 2023 10:55:04 +1300: Ross Clark <[email protected]>
scribeva:

On 20/12/2023 9:58 p.m., Ruud Harmsen wrote:

Wed, 20 Dec 2023 11:28:32 +1300: Ross Clark <[email protected]>
scribeva:

"The oddity of the unexpected mingling of the mechanical pianos and
automatic pans of the streets and nocturnal taverns of Madrid served as
my pretext for composing this piece..."

Automatic drums of a 'draaiorgel'?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ6CE9NG898&t=300
(What's that in English? Barrel organ, roller organ, crank organ, says
Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel_organ . Never heard of
those.)

"Barrel organ" is the common expression I've seen. I have some little
records (EPs) of "draaiorgel" -- the Netherlands seems to be famous for
them -- and long ago I remember visiting a whole museum of them in (I
think) Utrecht.

Yes, https://www.museumspeelklok.nl/
Formerly called "Van speelklok tot pierement".
Haarlem also has a specific Draaiorgelmuseum, I recently learned.

--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

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Wed, 20 Dec 2023 22:24:20 -0700: Tilde <[email protected]d>
scribeva:

Perhaps not "a bad piano" but "a badly played
piano"? I believe this is the piece in question
(which I rather like)

So do I.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J14cJMZkHYE
Igor Stravinsky - Etude pour Pianola

--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)