• A research team has managed to coordinate 100 domestic air conditioners

    From Carlos E.R.@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jun 14 15:14:48 2025
    This is an automated translation (DeepL) of an article I found today;
    the original is in Spanish. There is an article in English at the IEEEE,
    but you need an account to read.

    <https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/10783092>

    <https://ecoinventos.com/un-equipo-de-investigacion-logro-coordinar-100-aires-acondicionados-domesticos-para-estabilizar-la-red-electrica-en-tiempo-real/>

    *A research team has managed to coordinate 100 domestic air conditioners
    to stabilise the power grid in real time, as if they were a flexible
    power plant.*

    5-6 minutes

    A research team demonstrated that many residential air conditioners can
    be coordinated to support the power grid without affecting the comfort
    of users.


    Air conditioning: from enemy to ally

    * Air conditioning use = more electricity demand in summer.
    * Peak consumption → risk of blackouts.
    * New system: controls ACs without affecting comfort.
    * Technology tested in 100 homes (Texas).
    * Results: regulates the grid like a power plant.
    * Zero nuisance for users.
    * Compatible with smart thermostats.
    * Contributes to integrating renewable energies.


    How air-conditioning can help the grid instead of overloading it

    In summer, the massive use of air conditioners generates peaks in
    electricity consumption. These peaks force expensive and polluting power
    plants to be activated, compromising grid stability and increasing
    carbon emissions. In some cases, this overload can even lead to
    blackouts or planned outages.

    However, recent research shows that it is possible to transform this
    problem into a solution. Through intelligent control systems, it is
    feasible to coordinate the operation of hundreds of air conditioning
    units without affecting the comfort of users, while at the same time
    helping to stabilise the electricity grid.


    Adjustable equipment, smart grids

    Historically, the electricity grid was designed to operate with large
    thermal power plants (coal, natural gas, nuclear) that adjusted their
    output in real time according to demand. But with the increasing
    penetration of intermittent renewables (such as solar and wind), this
    model is no longer sustainable.

    Today, the focus is on distributed energy resources: systems that
    generate, store or regulate energy consumption close to the end user.
    This is where electric vehicles, heat pumps, water heaters and smart air conditioners come into play, which can automatically modify their
    consumption without human intervention.


    The problem of frequency

    The electricity grid must be maintained at a constant frequency (60 Hz
    in North America). When demand exceeds generation, the frequency goes
    down; when there is excess generation, it goes up. Power plants adjust
    their output to maintain balance, a process known as frequency regulation.

    But what if household appliances could also participate in this adjustment?


    Pilot test: air conditioning as a frequency regulator

    Between 2019 and 2023, a team led by the University of Michigan,
    together with Los Alamos National Laboratory and the University of
    California at Berkeley, conducted a pilot test in 100 homes in Austin,
    Texas. The air conditioners were connected to control boards capable of modifying the on/off cycle of the compressor depending on the frequency
    of the grid.

    The adjustment was minimal: they always stayed within the temperature
    range defined by the thermostats. The aim was to achieve a collective
    change in electricity consumption, almost imperceptible to the users,
    but relevant to the electrical system.


    Key results

    * Frequency regulation as accurate as that of a traditional power plant.
    * No discomfort reported by most users.
    * Indoor temperature never deviated more than 0.9°C from set point.
    * Less than 2% of households requested to deactivate the system in
    any test.
    * Full compatibility with smart thermostats already available on the market.


    Incentives and adoption

    This type of technology can be easily integrated into voluntary
    programmes offered by utilities or manufacturers of smart thermostats.
    In exchange for bill credits, the user allows their air conditioner to cooperate with the grid at critical times, without them noticing the difference.


    Potential

    Turning air conditioning into a flexible asset transforms a large energy consumer into a balancing and efficiency tool. Deploying it on a large
    scale would:

    * Reduce fossil fuel use at times of high demand.
    * Increase the capacity to integrate renewable sources (less
    reliance on backup power plants).
    * Reduce global emissions associated with summer electricity
    consumption.
    * Improve energy resilience to heat waves and consumption peaks.
    * Empower citizens to actively participate in the energy transition, without sacrificing their comfort.

    This approach represents a smart, efficient and cost-effective way to
    move towards a cleaner and more balanced energy model.

    More information: Controlling Air Conditioners for Frequency Regulation:
    A Real-World Example | IEEE Journals & Magazine | IEEE Xplore


    Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

    --
    Cheers, Carlos.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Jun 14 08:50:17 2025
    On Sat, 14 Jun 2025 15:14:48 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
    <[email protected]d> wrote:


    This is an automated translation (DeepL) of an article I found today;
    the original is in Spanish. There is an article in English at the IEEEE,
    but you need an account to read.

    <https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/10783092>

    <https://ecoinventos.com/un-equipo-de-investigacion-logro-coordinar-100-aires-acondicionados-domesticos-para-estabilizar-la-red-electrica-en-tiempo-real/>

    *A research team has managed to coordinate 100 domestic air conditioners
    to stabilise the power grid in real time, as if they were a flexible
    power plant.*

    5-6 minutes

    A research team demonstrated that many residential air conditioners can
    be coordinated to support the power grid without affecting the comfort
    of users.


    Air conditioning: from enemy to ally

    * Air conditioning use = more electricity demand in summer.
    * Peak consumption ? risk of blackouts.
    * New system: controls ACs without affecting comfort.
    * Technology tested in 100 homes (Texas).
    * Results: regulates the grid like a power plant.
    * Zero nuisance for users.
    * Compatible with smart thermostats.
    * Contributes to integrating renewable energies.


    How air-conditioning can help the grid instead of overloading it

    In summer, the massive use of air conditioners generates peaks in
    electricity consumption. These peaks force expensive and polluting power >plants to be activated, compromising grid stability and increasing
    carbon emissions. In some cases, this overload can even lead to
    blackouts or planned outages.

    However, recent research shows that it is possible to transform this
    problem into a solution. Through intelligent control systems, it is
    feasible to coordinate the operation of hundreds of air conditioning
    units without affecting the comfort of users, while at the same time
    helping to stabilise the electricity grid.


    Adjustable equipment, smart grids

    Historically, the electricity grid was designed to operate with large
    thermal power plants (coal, natural gas, nuclear) that adjusted their
    output in real time according to demand. But with the increasing
    penetration of intermittent renewables (such as solar and wind), this
    model is no longer sustainable.

    Today, the focus is on distributed energy resources: systems that
    generate, store or regulate energy consumption close to the end user.
    This is where electric vehicles, heat pumps, water heaters and smart air >conditioners come into play, which can automatically modify their
    consumption without human intervention.


    The problem of frequency

    The electricity grid must be maintained at a constant frequency (60 Hz
    in North America). When demand exceeds generation, the frequency goes
    down; when there is excess generation, it goes up. Power plants adjust
    their output to maintain balance, a process known as frequency regulation.

    But what if household appliances could also participate in this adjustment?


    Pilot test: air conditioning as a frequency regulator

    Between 2019 and 2023, a team led by the University of Michigan,
    together with Los Alamos National Laboratory and the University of
    California at Berkeley, conducted a pilot test in 100 homes in Austin,
    Texas. The air conditioners were connected to control boards capable of >modifying the on/off cycle of the compressor depending on the frequency
    of the grid.

    The adjustment was minimal: they always stayed within the temperature
    range defined by the thermostats. The aim was to achieve a collective
    change in electricity consumption, almost imperceptible to the users,
    but relevant to the electrical system.


    Key results

    * Frequency regulation as accurate as that of a traditional power plant.
    * No discomfort reported by most users.
    * Indoor temperature never deviated more than 0.9�C from set point.
    * Less than 2% of households requested to deactivate the system in
    any test.
    * Full compatibility with smart thermostats already available on the
    market.


    Incentives and adoption

    This type of technology can be easily integrated into voluntary
    programmes offered by utilities or manufacturers of smart thermostats.
    In exchange for bill credits, the user allows their air conditioner to >cooperate with the grid at critical times, without them noticing the >difference.


    Potential

    Turning air conditioning into a flexible asset transforms a large energy >consumer into a balancing and efficiency tool. Deploying it on a large
    scale would:

    * Reduce fossil fuel use at times of high demand.
    * Increase the capacity to integrate renewable sources (less
    reliance on backup power plants).
    * Reduce global emissions associated with summer electricity
    consumption.
    * Improve energy resilience to heat waves and consumption peaks.
    * Empower citizens to actively participate in the energy transition,
    without sacrificing their comfort.

    This approach represents a smart, efficient and cost-effective way to
    move towards a cleaner and more balanced energy model.

    More information: Controlling Air Conditioners for Frequency Regulation:
    A Real-World Example | IEEE Journals & Magazine | IEEE Xplore


    Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

    A/C units don't generate power. When renewables can't meet demand, the
    best they can do is load shed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Carlos E.R.@21:1/5 to john larkin on Sat Jun 14 19:59:55 2025
    On 2025-06-14 17:50, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 14 Jun 2025 15:14:48 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
    <[email protected]d> wrote:


    This is an automated translation (DeepL) of an article I found today;
    the original is in Spanish. There is an article in English at the IEEEE,
    but you need an account to read.

    <https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/10783092>

    <https://ecoinventos.com/un-equipo-de-investigacion-logro-coordinar-100-aires-acondicionados-domesticos-para-estabilizar-la-red-electrica-en-tiempo-real/>

    ...

    More information: Controlling Air Conditioners for Frequency Regulation:
    A Real-World Example | IEEE Journals & Magazine | IEEE Xplore


    Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

    A/C units don't generate power. When renewables can't meet demand, the
    best they can do is load shed.

    We all know that AC units don't generate power. You can read the IEEE
    paper, which is a serious document, and find out exactly what they did.

    --
    Cheers, Carlos.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Robertson@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jun 14 11:15:40 2025
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    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From KevinJ93@21:1/5 to john larkin on Sat Jun 14 12:17:19 2025
    On 6/14/25 8:50 AM, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 14 Jun 2025 15:14:48 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
    <[email protected]d> wrote:


    This is an automated translation (DeepL) of an article I found today;
    the original is in Spanish. There is an article in English at the IEEEE,
    but you need an account to read.

    <https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/10783092>

    <https://ecoinventos.com/un-equipo-de-investigacion-logro-coordinar-100-aires-acondicionados-domesticos-para-estabilizar-la-red-electrica-en-tiempo-real/>

    *A research team has managed to coordinate 100 domestic air conditioners
    to stabilise the power grid in real time, as if they were a flexible
    power plant.*

    5-6 minutes

    A research team demonstrated that many residential air conditioners can
    be coordinated to support the power grid without affecting the comfort
    of users.


    Air conditioning: from enemy to ally

    * Air conditioning use = more electricity demand in summer.
    * Peak consumption ? risk of blackouts.
    * New system: controls ACs without affecting comfort.
    * Technology tested in 100 homes (Texas).
    * Results: regulates the grid like a power plant.
    * Zero nuisance for users.
    * Compatible with smart thermostats.
    * Contributes to integrating renewable energies.


    How air-conditioning can help the grid instead of overloading it

    In summer, the massive use of air conditioners generates peaks in
    electricity consumption. These peaks force expensive and polluting power
    plants to be activated, compromising grid stability and increasing
    carbon emissions. In some cases, this overload can even lead to
    blackouts or planned outages.

    However, recent research shows that it is possible to transform this
    problem into a solution. Through intelligent control systems, it is
    feasible to coordinate the operation of hundreds of air conditioning
    units without affecting the comfort of users, while at the same time
    helping to stabilise the electricity grid.


    Adjustable equipment, smart grids

    Historically, the electricity grid was designed to operate with large
    thermal power plants (coal, natural gas, nuclear) that adjusted their
    output in real time according to demand. But with the increasing
    penetration of intermittent renewables (such as solar and wind), this
    model is no longer sustainable.

    Today, the focus is on distributed energy resources: systems that
    generate, store or regulate energy consumption close to the end user.
    This is where electric vehicles, heat pumps, water heaters and smart air
    conditioners come into play, which can automatically modify their
    consumption without human intervention.


    The problem of frequency

    The electricity grid must be maintained at a constant frequency (60 Hz
    in North America). When demand exceeds generation, the frequency goes
    down; when there is excess generation, it goes up. Power plants adjust
    their output to maintain balance, a process known as frequency regulation. >>
    But what if household appliances could also participate in this adjustment? >>

    Pilot test: air conditioning as a frequency regulator

    Between 2019 and 2023, a team led by the University of Michigan,
    together with Los Alamos National Laboratory and the University of
    California at Berkeley, conducted a pilot test in 100 homes in Austin,
    Texas. The air conditioners were connected to control boards capable of
    modifying the on/off cycle of the compressor depending on the frequency
    of the grid.

    The adjustment was minimal: they always stayed within the temperature
    range defined by the thermostats. The aim was to achieve a collective
    change in electricity consumption, almost imperceptible to the users,
    but relevant to the electrical system.


    Key results

    * Frequency regulation as accurate as that of a traditional power plant. >> * No discomfort reported by most users.
    * Indoor temperature never deviated more than 0.9°C from set point.
    * Less than 2% of households requested to deactivate the system in
    any test.
    * Full compatibility with smart thermostats already available on the
    market.


    Incentives and adoption

    This type of technology can be easily integrated into voluntary
    programmes offered by utilities or manufacturers of smart thermostats.
    In exchange for bill credits, the user allows their air conditioner to
    cooperate with the grid at critical times, without them noticing the
    difference.


    Potential

    Turning air conditioning into a flexible asset transforms a large energy
    consumer into a balancing and efficiency tool. Deploying it on a large
    scale would:

    * Reduce fossil fuel use at times of high demand.
    * Increase the capacity to integrate renewable sources (less
    reliance on backup power plants).
    * Reduce global emissions associated with summer electricity
    consumption.
    * Improve energy resilience to heat waves and consumption peaks.
    * Empower citizens to actively participate in the energy transition,
    without sacrificing their comfort.

    This approach represents a smart, efficient and cost-effective way to
    move towards a cleaner and more balanced energy model.

    More information: Controlling Air Conditioners for Frequency Regulation:
    A Real-World Example | IEEE Journals & Magazine | IEEE Xplore


    Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

    A/C units don't generate power. When renewables can't meet demand, the
    best they can do is load shed.


    Nuclear power plants also usually operate at 100% rated power so don't
    have any reserve either.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Carlos E.R. on Sat Jun 14 14:00:24 2025
    On 6/14/2025 6:14 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
    *A research team has managed to coordinate 100 domestic air conditioners to stabilise the power grid in real time, as if they were a flexible power plant.*

    This approach represents a smart, efficient and cost-effective way to move towards a cleaner and more balanced energy model.

    This is a no-brainer. What has been "missing" is the means of TALKING to those distributed loads in a manner that ensures they will *listen*.

    Hotels/motels and large "institutions" have been using a similar
    scheme for many deacdes -- but, they are omnipotent within their
    individual domains so can easily force the issue.

    [When you turn up/down the thermostat for the ROOM HVAC UNIT,
    there is no guarantee that it will be providing heating or cooling
    THAT INSTANT; a central controller time-division multiplexes
    which rooms/units are active at any given time to ensure
    all don't COINCIDENTALLY apply their loads at the same time,
    without consideration of other users]

    Such capabilities have been naked into ENERGY STAR requirements
    for more than a decade:

    <https://www.energystar.gov/sites/default/files/specs/ENERGY%20STAR%20Final%20Refrigerators%20and%20Freezers%20Demand%20Response%20Test%20Method.pdf>

    While an individual refrigerator or "window air conditioner" doesn't
    seem like much of a load to manage, taken in concert, they can
    represent a large (and distributed!) load that can be used to
    reduce the "instantaneous" demand on the utility.

    [Imagine every residence in the Indian subcontinent having a
    "refrigeration unit" with "a mind of its own" -- how big the tail
    that would wag!]

    I manage my ~3KW automation system's power demands in increments
    of about 3W. Is it going to save me any *money*? No, but it will
    let me decide where to spend my stored energy instead of blindly
    powering devices whose functionality isn't ESSENTIAL at a time when
    power is scarce. Is there a reason the work being done by node
    X can't be done when power is more plentiful? Or, when node Y no
    longer needs to remain powered?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Jun 14 21:52:36 2025
    KevinJ93 <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 6/14/25 8:50 AM, john larkin wrote:

    [...]

    A/C units don't generate power. When renewables can't meet demand, the
    best they can do is load shed.


    Nuclear power plants also usually operate at 100% rated power so don't
    have any reserve either.

    Steam in the boilers/heat exchangers acts as a reserve of energy for
    short-term stabilisation.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Carlos E.R.@21:1/5 to john larkin on Sat Jun 14 23:53:55 2025
    On 2025-06-14 23:17, john larkin wrote:
    Nowhere in the post does it say that air conditioners are generating
    power...the reduction of fuel use is due to increased efficiency of
    power usage.
    Improving efficiency by load shedding means hotter homes. Why not just mandate that no thermostats can go below 80F?

    That's not what they are doing. They are changing the load in tiny parts
    of the cycle, 50 or 60 times per second. Changing the load waveform.

    --
    Cheers, Carlos.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to John Robertson on Sat Jun 14 15:01:28 2025
    On 6/14/2025 11:15 AM, John Robertson wrote:
    Pretty sure the point of the research was to find a simple way for air conditioners loading to be applied to the grid in a controlled fashion, rather
    than random starts and stops. This aids in keeping the loading factor under better control so another power generation source isn't needed to keep the line
    frequency stable.

    Exactly. The goal is to have a constant load and then get generation
    to be able to meet that load. That was where nukes were a win.

    If the load varies, then you need short term (i.e., expensive) generation mechanisms to come online to address the increased demand.

    Historically, we've done this by over-provisioning -- which only makes sense
    to people who don't think about the economics (i.e., you're paying for that capacity EVEN IF YOU AREN'T USING IT -- this is why businesses on demand tariffs do "silly things" like making ice on the off hours: they're paying
    for power that they aren't otherwise using so why not USE it?!)

    You wouldn't want to drive a panel truck as your "everyday vehicle" *just*
    so you had it available for those few times you need to transport some
    large pieces of furniture or construction materials, would you? And
    deal with the inefficiencies of operating it BELOW it's capacity...

    You wouldn't want to size the seats in an aircraft so a morbidly obese passenger could have equal access to *any* on the aircraft -- at the expense
    of being able to carry fewer total passengers? (Imagine the uproar if
    you had 3 different sized seats and the flight attendant or reservationist
    made the judgement call as to which class YOU were assigned to!)

    What I've read sounds like good information for coordinating air conditioners across a wide area.

    In the US, refrigerators and air conditioners can have this ability as part
    of the ENERGY STAR certification. But, it relies on the individual
    appliances to honor this "need". (E.g., I've got it turned off on our refrigerator as there is no inducement to let someone dick with it
    without compensating me).

    Nowhere in the post does it say that air conditioners are generating power...the reduction of fuel use is due to increased efficiency of power usage.

    Isn't something like this used industrially for load balancing and scheduling?
    This is taking it to the homes...

    https://www.testworld.com/wp-content/uploads/saving-energy-through-load-balancing-and-load-scheduling.pdf

    Look at the limiting case: when instantaneous demand exceeds power availability. The only remedy is brownout or blackout (either
    unilateral or selective).

    Load balancing acknowledges the fact that SOMETHING is usually better
    than NOTHING. I.e., you'll settle for a home that it a little warmer
    than you would LIKE (should we implement the energy police to mandate
    no home should have their internal temperature "more comfortable"
    than any other??) if the alternative is a home that is a LOT warmer
    AND DARK!

    When we had our natural gas (supply) shortage, the only remedy that could
    be IMPOSED was to literally cut off gas supply to certain parts of town.
    That allowed the available pressure to rise sufficiently for SOME of
    the town to have COMPLETELY NORMAL HEAT. I bet the folks who were
    left with *no* heat would much rather a solution that let everyone
    have A LITTLE heat!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jun 14 14:17:07 2025
    On Sat, 14 Jun 2025 11:15:40 -0700, John Robertson <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On 2025-06-14 8:50 a.m., john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 14 Jun 2025 15:14:48 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
    <[email protected]d> wrote:


    This is an automated translation (DeepL) of an article I found today;
    the original is in Spanish. There is an article in English at the IEEEE, >>> but you need an account to read.

    <https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/10783092>

    <https://ecoinventos.com/un-equipo-de-investigacion-logro-coordinar-100-aires-acondicionados-domesticos-para-estabilizar-la-red-electrica-en-tiempo-real/>

    *A research team has managed to coordinate 100 domestic air conditioners >>> to stabilise the power grid in real time, as if they were a flexible
    power plant.*

    5-6 minutes

    A research team demonstrated that many residential air conditioners can
    be coordinated to support the power grid without affecting the comfort
    of users.


    Air conditioning: from enemy to ally

    * Air conditioning use = more electricity demand in summer.
    * Peak consumption ? risk of blackouts.
    * New system: controls ACs without affecting comfort.
    * Technology tested in 100 homes (Texas).
    * Results: regulates the grid like a power plant.
    * Zero nuisance for users.
    * Compatible with smart thermostats.
    * Contributes to integrating renewable energies.


    How air-conditioning can help the grid instead of overloading it

    In summer, the massive use of air conditioners generates peaks in
    electricity consumption. These peaks force expensive and polluting power >>> plants to be activated, compromising grid stability and increasing
    carbon emissions. In some cases, this overload can even lead to
    blackouts or planned outages.

    However, recent research shows that it is possible to transform this
    problem into a solution. Through intelligent control systems, it is
    feasible to coordinate the operation of hundreds of air conditioning
    units without affecting the comfort of users, while at the same time
    helping to stabilise the electricity grid.


    Adjustable equipment, smart grids

    Historically, the electricity grid was designed to operate with large
    thermal power plants (coal, natural gas, nuclear) that adjusted their
    output in real time according to demand. But with the increasing
    penetration of intermittent renewables (such as solar and wind), this
    model is no longer sustainable.

    Today, the focus is on distributed energy resources: systems that
    generate, store or regulate energy consumption close to the end user.
    This is where electric vehicles, heat pumps, water heaters and smart air >>> conditioners come into play, which can automatically modify their
    consumption without human intervention.


    The problem of frequency

    The electricity grid must be maintained at a constant frequency (60 Hz
    in North America). When demand exceeds generation, the frequency goes
    down; when there is excess generation, it goes up. Power plants adjust
    their output to maintain balance, a process known as frequency regulation. >>>
    But what if household appliances could also participate in this adjustment? >>>

    Pilot test: air conditioning as a frequency regulator

    Between 2019 and 2023, a team led by the University of Michigan,
    together with Los Alamos National Laboratory and the University of
    California at Berkeley, conducted a pilot test in 100 homes in Austin,
    Texas. The air conditioners were connected to control boards capable of
    modifying the on/off cycle of the compressor depending on the frequency
    of the grid.

    The adjustment was minimal: they always stayed within the temperature
    range defined by the thermostats. The aim was to achieve a collective
    change in electricity consumption, almost imperceptible to the users,
    but relevant to the electrical system.


    Key results

    * Frequency regulation as accurate as that of a traditional power plant.
    * No discomfort reported by most users.
    * Indoor temperature never deviated more than 0.9�C from set point.
    * Less than 2% of households requested to deactivate the system in
    any test.
    * Full compatibility with smart thermostats already available on the >>> market.


    Incentives and adoption

    This type of technology can be easily integrated into voluntary
    programmes offered by utilities or manufacturers of smart thermostats.
    In exchange for bill credits, the user allows their air conditioner to
    cooperate with the grid at critical times, without them noticing the
    difference.


    Potential

    Turning air conditioning into a flexible asset transforms a large energy >>> consumer into a balancing and efficiency tool. Deploying it on a large
    scale would:

    * Reduce fossil fuel use at times of high demand.
    * Increase the capacity to integrate renewable sources (less
    reliance on backup power plants).
    * Reduce global emissions associated with summer electricity
    consumption.
    * Improve energy resilience to heat waves and consumption peaks.
    * Empower citizens to actively participate in the energy transition, >>> without sacrificing their comfort.

    This approach represents a smart, efficient and cost-effective way to
    move towards a cleaner and more balanced energy model.

    More information: Controlling Air Conditioners for Frequency Regulation: >>> A Real-World Example | IEEE Journals & Magazine | IEEE Xplore


    Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

    A/C units don't generate power. When renewables can't meet demand, the
    best they can do is load shed.


    Pretty sure the point of the research was to find a simple way for air >conditioners loading to be applied to the grid in a controlled fashion, >rather than random starts and stops. This aids in keeping the loading
    factor under better control so another power generation source isn't
    needed to keep the line frequency stable.

    What I've read sounds like good information for coordinating air
    conditioners across a wide area.

    500,000 a/c units, cycling randomly, will be a very smooth load. About
    all that wide-range remote controls can do is crank down their total
    power. That would help, of course, when generation can't meet demand.

    Seems easier to me to have adequate full-time generating capacity.
    That's an old-fashioned concept.


    Nowhere in the post does it say that air conditioners are generating >power...the reduction of fuel use is due to increased efficiency of
    power usage.

    Improving efficiency by load shedding means hotter homes. Why not just
    mandate that no thermostats can go below 80F?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From KevinJ93@21:1/5 to john larkin on Sat Jun 14 16:01:50 2025
    On 6/14/25 2:17 PM, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 14 Jun 2025 11:15:40 -0700, John Robertson <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On 2025-06-14 8:50 a.m., john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 14 Jun 2025 15:14:48 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
    <[email protected]d> wrote:


    This is an automated translation (DeepL) of an article I found today;
    the original is in Spanish. There is an article in English at the IEEEE, >>>> but you need an account to read.

    <https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/10783092>

    <https://ecoinventos.com/un-equipo-de-investigacion-logro-coordinar-100-aires-acondicionados-domesticos-para-estabilizar-la-red-electrica-en-tiempo-real/>

    *A research team has managed to coordinate 100 domestic air conditioners >>>> to stabilise the power grid in real time, as if they were a flexible
    power plant.*

    5-6 minutes

    A research team demonstrated that many residential air conditioners can >>>> be coordinated to support the power grid without affecting the comfort >>>> of users.


    Air conditioning: from enemy to ally

    * Air conditioning use = more electricity demand in summer.
    * Peak consumption ? risk of blackouts.
    * New system: controls ACs without affecting comfort.
    * Technology tested in 100 homes (Texas).
    * Results: regulates the grid like a power plant.
    * Zero nuisance for users.
    * Compatible with smart thermostats.
    * Contributes to integrating renewable energies.


    How air-conditioning can help the grid instead of overloading it

    In summer, the massive use of air conditioners generates peaks in
    electricity consumption. These peaks force expensive and polluting power >>>> plants to be activated, compromising grid stability and increasing
    carbon emissions. In some cases, this overload can even lead to
    blackouts or planned outages.

    However, recent research shows that it is possible to transform this
    problem into a solution. Through intelligent control systems, it is
    feasible to coordinate the operation of hundreds of air conditioning
    units without affecting the comfort of users, while at the same time
    helping to stabilise the electricity grid.


    Adjustable equipment, smart grids

    Historically, the electricity grid was designed to operate with large
    thermal power plants (coal, natural gas, nuclear) that adjusted their
    output in real time according to demand. But with the increasing
    penetration of intermittent renewables (such as solar and wind), this
    model is no longer sustainable.

    Today, the focus is on distributed energy resources: systems that
    generate, store or regulate energy consumption close to the end user.
    This is where electric vehicles, heat pumps, water heaters and smart air >>>> conditioners come into play, which can automatically modify their
    consumption without human intervention.


    The problem of frequency

    The electricity grid must be maintained at a constant frequency (60 Hz >>>> in North America). When demand exceeds generation, the frequency goes
    down; when there is excess generation, it goes up. Power plants adjust >>>> their output to maintain balance, a process known as frequency regulation. >>>>
    But what if household appliances could also participate in this adjustment?


    Pilot test: air conditioning as a frequency regulator

    Between 2019 and 2023, a team led by the University of Michigan,
    together with Los Alamos National Laboratory and the University of
    California at Berkeley, conducted a pilot test in 100 homes in Austin, >>>> Texas. The air conditioners were connected to control boards capable of >>>> modifying the on/off cycle of the compressor depending on the frequency >>>> of the grid.

    The adjustment was minimal: they always stayed within the temperature
    range defined by the thermostats. The aim was to achieve a collective
    change in electricity consumption, almost imperceptible to the users,
    but relevant to the electrical system.


    Key results

    * Frequency regulation as accurate as that of a traditional power plant.
    * No discomfort reported by most users.
    * Indoor temperature never deviated more than 0.9°C from set point. >>>> * Less than 2% of households requested to deactivate the system in >>>> any test.
    * Full compatibility with smart thermostats already available on the >>>> market.


    Incentives and adoption

    This type of technology can be easily integrated into voluntary
    programmes offered by utilities or manufacturers of smart thermostats. >>>> In exchange for bill credits, the user allows their air conditioner to >>>> cooperate with the grid at critical times, without them noticing the
    difference.


    Potential

    Turning air conditioning into a flexible asset transforms a large energy >>>> consumer into a balancing and efficiency tool. Deploying it on a large >>>> scale would:

    * Reduce fossil fuel use at times of high demand.
    * Increase the capacity to integrate renewable sources (less
    reliance on backup power plants).
    * Reduce global emissions associated with summer electricity
    consumption.
    * Improve energy resilience to heat waves and consumption peaks.
    * Empower citizens to actively participate in the energy transition, >>>> without sacrificing their comfort.

    This approach represents a smart, efficient and cost-effective way to
    move towards a cleaner and more balanced energy model.

    More information: Controlling Air Conditioners for Frequency Regulation: >>>> A Real-World Example | IEEE Journals & Magazine | IEEE Xplore


    Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

    A/C units don't generate power. When renewables can't meet demand, the
    best they can do is load shed.


    Pretty sure the point of the research was to find a simple way for air
    conditioners loading to be applied to the grid in a controlled fashion,
    rather than random starts and stops. This aids in keeping the loading
    factor under better control so another power generation source isn't
    needed to keep the line frequency stable.

    What I've read sounds like good information for coordinating air
    conditioners across a wide area.

    500,000 a/c units, cycling randomly, will be a very smooth load. About
    all that wide-range remote controls can do is crank down their total
    power. That would help, of course, when generation can't meet demand.

    Seems easier to me to have adequate full-time generating capacity.
    That's an old-fashioned concept.


    Nowhere in the post does it say that air conditioners are generating
    power...the reduction of fuel use is due to increased efficiency of
    power usage.

    Improving efficiency by load shedding means hotter homes. Why not just mandate that no thermostats can go below 80F?


    It can be dynamic. It doesn't have to be all the time.

    PG&E operates a system they call SmartAC where they can remotely control
    the temperature of the air-conditioning to reduce grid stress to move consumption to times of less stress.

    They will only do this during certain hours. In return the user gets
    some benefits.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Carlos E.R. on Sat Jun 14 15:29:57 2025
    On 6/14/2025 2:53 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
    That's not what they are doing. They are changing the load in tiny parts of the
    cycle, 50 or 60 times per second. Changing the load waveform.

    No, they are deferring the start of the compressor and/or blower.

    As home thermostats are not precision devices -- AND ONLY MEASURE THE TEMPERATURE AT ONE LOCATION IN THE HOUSE'S VOLUME -- an occupant
    would likely never notice if the plant turned on at its "intended"
    setpoint or some delta above.

    The question is whether or not the control algorithm allows the
    local plant to be operated with greater *symmetric* hysteresis
    or if it just lets the cooling cycle be delayed without regard
    to the actual temperature.

    It's just silly to rely on antiquated control approaches when
    it's so easy to have smarts "at the edge". E.g., how smart is
    it to allow the thermostat to call for cooling (or heat)
    one minute before the setpoint temperature is SCHEDULED
    (by the user's scheduling decisions!) to go up (or down) by
    an amount that likely exceeds the hysteresis in the system?

    E.g., house maintaining 68F for heat and at 1 minute prior to bedtime,
    the thermostat notices it is now 67.9F and calls for heat... when
    the setpoint will be lowered to 62 a minute later? (and, the
    changing of the setpoint likely causing the heating cycle to be
    prematurely aborted: "Oh, the house is now at 67.93 degrees
    and the setpoint is 62 so let's shutdown the plant instead of
    waiting for it to attain the OLD setpoint of 68F...")

    Imagine the stresses on the equipment by all this ineffective
    cycling (esp the compressor!)

    Ideally, you want to notice how the system behaves and tune
    your controls to maximize *it's* ability to satisfy the
    user's stated needs while reaping some rewards for the provider
    (and, ultimately, for the user by way of reduced capital
    investments)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From KevinJ93@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sat Jun 14 16:09:18 2025
    On 6/14/25 3:29 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/14/2025 2:53 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
    That's not what they are doing. They are changing the load in tiny
    parts of the cycle, 50 or 60 times per second. Changing the load
    waveform.

    No, they are deferring the start of the compressor and/or blower.

    As home thermostats are not precision devices -- AND ONLY MEASURE THE TEMPERATURE AT ONE LOCATION IN THE HOUSE'S VOLUME -- an occupant
    would likely never notice if the plant turned on at its "intended"
    setpoint or some delta above.

    The question is whether or not the control algorithm allows the
    local plant to be operated with greater *symmetric* hysteresis
    or if it just lets the cooling cycle be delayed without regard
    to the actual temperature.

    It's just silly to rely on antiquated control approaches when
    it's so easy to have smarts "at the edge".  E.g., how smart is
    it to allow the thermostat to call for cooling (or heat)
    one minute before the setpoint temperature is SCHEDULED
    (by the user's scheduling decisions!) to go up (or down) by
    an amount that likely exceeds the hysteresis in the system?

    E.g., house maintaining 68F for heat and at 1 minute prior to bedtime,
    the thermostat notices it is now 67.9F and calls for heat... when
    the setpoint will be lowered to 62 a minute later?  (and, the
    changing of the setpoint likely causing the heating cycle to be
    prematurely aborted:  "Oh, the house is now at 67.93 degrees
    and the setpoint is 62 so let's shutdown the plant instead of
    waiting for it to attain the OLD setpoint of 68F...")

    Imagine the stresses on the equipment by all this ineffective
    cycling (esp the compressor!)

    Ideally, you want to notice how the system behaves and tune
    your controls to maximize *it's* ability to satisfy the
    user's stated needs while reaping some rewards for the provider
    (and, ultimately, for the user by way of reduced capital
    investments)

    Many thermostats have had those features for at least the last decade.

    My ten year old Carrier thermostat addresses most of those items. It
    also has an exterior outside temperature sensor and takes in weather predictions over the internet so that it ramps the temperature
    appropriately and maintains a comfortable temperature and humidity.

    The compressor protection is commonly built into the compressor control
    unit so that any command from the thermostat that compromises the
    compressor safety is ignored until safe.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Jun 14 16:48:37 2025
    On Sat, 14 Jun 2025 23:53:55 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
    <[email protected]d> wrote:

    On 2025-06-14 23:17, john larkin wrote:
    Nowhere in the post does it say that air conditioners are generating
    power...the reduction of fuel use is due to increased efficiency of
    power usage.
    Improving efficiency by load shedding means hotter homes. Why not just
    mandate that no thermostats can go below 80F?

    That's not what they are doing. They are changing the load in tiny parts
    of the cycle, 50 or 60 times per second. Changing the load waveform.

    That's just power factor adjustment. It doesn't generate power when
    the renewables slack off.

    Seems like it would increase transformer losses too. 100 is a tiny
    sample size.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jun 14 17:02:34 2025
    On 6/14/2025 4:09 PM, KevinJ93 wrote:
    On 6/14/25 3:29 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/14/2025 2:53 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
    That's not what they are doing. They are changing the load in tiny parts of >>> the cycle, 50 or 60 times per second. Changing the load waveform.

    No, they are deferring the start of the compressor and/or blower.

    As home thermostats are not precision devices -- AND ONLY MEASURE THE
    TEMPERATURE AT ONE LOCATION IN THE HOUSE'S VOLUME -- an occupant
    would likely never notice if the plant turned on at its "intended"
    setpoint or some delta above.

    The question is whether or not the control algorithm allows the
    local plant to be operated with greater *symmetric* hysteresis
    or if it just lets the cooling cycle be delayed without regard
    to the actual temperature.

    It's just silly to rely on antiquated control approaches when
    it's so easy to have smarts "at the edge".  E.g., how smart is
    it to allow the thermostat to call for cooling (or heat)
    one minute before the setpoint temperature is SCHEDULED
    (by the user's scheduling decisions!) to go up (or down) by
    an amount that likely exceeds the hysteresis in the system?

    E.g., house maintaining 68F for heat and at 1 minute prior to bedtime,
    the thermostat notices it is now 67.9F and calls for heat... when
    the setpoint will be lowered to 62 a minute later?  (and, the
    changing of the setpoint likely causing the heating cycle to be
    prematurely aborted:  "Oh, the house is now at 67.93 degrees
    and the setpoint is 62 so let's shutdown the plant instead of
    waiting for it to attain the OLD setpoint of 68F...")

    Imagine the stresses on the equipment by all this ineffective
    cycling (esp the compressor!)

    Ideally, you want to notice how the system behaves and tune
    your controls to maximize *it's* ability to satisfy the
    user's stated needs while reaping some rewards for the provider
    (and, ultimately, for the user by way of reduced capital
    investments)

    Many thermostats have had those features for at least the last decade.

    My ten year old Carrier thermostat addresses most of those items. It also has

    Then, how many minutes BEFORE as setpoint change will it ignore the
    scheduled change? Does it look at the response of the interior to
    such changes and adapt so the "back off" varies with temperature,
    setpoint difference, outdoor temperature and wind speed? Otherwise,
    you're just shifting the point at which it makes an unfortunate
    change in control.

    [The thermostat that I designed for my parents, *40* years ago
    does those things. But, still for a single measurement point
    in the house (e.g., my bedroom was always considerably warmer
    than the rest of the house; the kitchen always considerably
    cooler -- partly because of the house's orientation on the lot
    and partly because of the way the heating was plumbed). But,
    the thermostat knew how to get the heat (no central air) *to*
    the desired temperature *at* the specified time -- instead of
    simply switching setpoints at those times]

    an exterior outside temperature sensor and takes in weather predictions over the internet so that it ramps the temperature appropriately and maintains a comfortable temperature and humidity.

    I do that here -- adding decision criteria as to when the swamp cooler
    can be called on to provide cooling (cognizant of a "comfort factor").
    If today's OUTDOOR temperature is likely to be more than ~30 degrees
    above the desired indoor temperature, then the cooler is ill-advised
    as refrigeration will be required once the indoor-outdoor differential
    reaches that point. As I (currently) have to rely on manual action
    to vent the house adequately, you don't want to have to tell the
    homeowner to close all the windows so the ACbrrr can come online.

    The compressor protection is commonly built into the compressor control unit so
    that any command from the thermostat that compromises the compressor safety is
    ignored until safe.

    The compressor won't usually turn ON until a suitable time has elapsed
    to ensure the compressor's pressure has leaked off to a safe starting
    point. But, once commanded on, it will usually turn off as soon as
    told to turn off. Has it done any meaningful work in that short
    time? Or, just cycled out of blind devotion to the control signal?

    This makes for some interesting design decisions. E.g., if the
    user specifies a setpoint of 68F at 7AM and 72F at 7:30AM, it is
    possible that you might need to overshoot the 68F in order to
    be able to attain the 72F. Likewise, specifying 68F at 7A
    and 65F at 7:30A... should it even bother trying to meet the
    earlier specification given that the user has effectively
    said he doesn't care about that temperature 30 minutes later?

    Historically, the user is allowed to remain ignorant of the costs
    of his decisions. Largely because the control systems don't
    have the knowledge -- nor ability -- to inform the user.

    "If you raise your cooling temperature by 1 degree, I can save
    you $X today."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jun 14 16:53:12 2025
    On Sat, 14 Jun 2025 16:01:50 -0700, KevinJ93 <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On 6/14/25 2:17 PM, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 14 Jun 2025 11:15:40 -0700, John Robertson <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On 2025-06-14 8:50 a.m., john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 14 Jun 2025 15:14:48 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
    <[email protected]d> wrote:


    This is an automated translation (DeepL) of an article I found today; >>>>> the original is in Spanish. There is an article in English at the IEEEE, >>>>> but you need an account to read.

    <https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/10783092>

    <https://ecoinventos.com/un-equipo-de-investigacion-logro-coordinar-100-aires-acondicionados-domesticos-para-estabilizar-la-red-electrica-en-tiempo-real/>

    *A research team has managed to coordinate 100 domestic air conditioners >>>>> to stabilise the power grid in real time, as if they were a flexible >>>>> power plant.*

    5-6 minutes

    A research team demonstrated that many residential air conditioners can >>>>> be coordinated to support the power grid without affecting the comfort >>>>> of users.


    Air conditioning: from enemy to ally

    * Air conditioning use = more electricity demand in summer.
    * Peak consumption ? risk of blackouts.
    * New system: controls ACs without affecting comfort.
    * Technology tested in 100 homes (Texas).
    * Results: regulates the grid like a power plant.
    * Zero nuisance for users.
    * Compatible with smart thermostats.
    * Contributes to integrating renewable energies.


    How air-conditioning can help the grid instead of overloading it

    In summer, the massive use of air conditioners generates peaks in
    electricity consumption. These peaks force expensive and polluting power >>>>> plants to be activated, compromising grid stability and increasing
    carbon emissions. In some cases, this overload can even lead to
    blackouts or planned outages.

    However, recent research shows that it is possible to transform this >>>>> problem into a solution. Through intelligent control systems, it is
    feasible to coordinate the operation of hundreds of air conditioning >>>>> units without affecting the comfort of users, while at the same time >>>>> helping to stabilise the electricity grid.


    Adjustable equipment, smart grids

    Historically, the electricity grid was designed to operate with large >>>>> thermal power plants (coal, natural gas, nuclear) that adjusted their >>>>> output in real time according to demand. But with the increasing
    penetration of intermittent renewables (such as solar and wind), this >>>>> model is no longer sustainable.

    Today, the focus is on distributed energy resources: systems that
    generate, store or regulate energy consumption close to the end user. >>>>> This is where electric vehicles, heat pumps, water heaters and smart air >>>>> conditioners come into play, which can automatically modify their
    consumption without human intervention.


    The problem of frequency

    The electricity grid must be maintained at a constant frequency (60 Hz >>>>> in North America). When demand exceeds generation, the frequency goes >>>>> down; when there is excess generation, it goes up. Power plants adjust >>>>> their output to maintain balance, a process known as frequency regulation.

    But what if household appliances could also participate in this adjustment?


    Pilot test: air conditioning as a frequency regulator

    Between 2019 and 2023, a team led by the University of Michigan,
    together with Los Alamos National Laboratory and the University of
    California at Berkeley, conducted a pilot test in 100 homes in Austin, >>>>> Texas. The air conditioners were connected to control boards capable of >>>>> modifying the on/off cycle of the compressor depending on the frequency >>>>> of the grid.

    The adjustment was minimal: they always stayed within the temperature >>>>> range defined by the thermostats. The aim was to achieve a collective >>>>> change in electricity consumption, almost imperceptible to the users, >>>>> but relevant to the electrical system.


    Key results

    * Frequency regulation as accurate as that of a traditional power plant.
    * No discomfort reported by most users.
    * Indoor temperature never deviated more than 0.9�C from set point. >>>>> * Less than 2% of households requested to deactivate the system in >>>>> any test.
    * Full compatibility with smart thermostats already available on the >>>>> market.


    Incentives and adoption

    This type of technology can be easily integrated into voluntary
    programmes offered by utilities or manufacturers of smart thermostats. >>>>> In exchange for bill credits, the user allows their air conditioner to >>>>> cooperate with the grid at critical times, without them noticing the >>>>> difference.


    Potential

    Turning air conditioning into a flexible asset transforms a large energy >>>>> consumer into a balancing and efficiency tool. Deploying it on a large >>>>> scale would:

    * Reduce fossil fuel use at times of high demand.
    * Increase the capacity to integrate renewable sources (less
    reliance on backup power plants).
    * Reduce global emissions associated with summer electricity
    consumption.
    * Improve energy resilience to heat waves and consumption peaks. >>>>> * Empower citizens to actively participate in the energy transition, >>>>> without sacrificing their comfort.

    This approach represents a smart, efficient and cost-effective way to >>>>> move towards a cleaner and more balanced energy model.

    More information: Controlling Air Conditioners for Frequency Regulation: >>>>> A Real-World Example | IEEE Journals & Magazine | IEEE Xplore


    Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

    A/C units don't generate power. When renewables can't meet demand, the >>>> best they can do is load shed.


    Pretty sure the point of the research was to find a simple way for air
    conditioners loading to be applied to the grid in a controlled fashion,
    rather than random starts and stops. This aids in keeping the loading
    factor under better control so another power generation source isn't
    needed to keep the line frequency stable.

    What I've read sounds like good information for coordinating air
    conditioners across a wide area.

    500,000 a/c units, cycling randomly, will be a very smooth load. About
    all that wide-range remote controls can do is crank down their total
    power. That would help, of course, when generation can't meet demand.

    Seems easier to me to have adequate full-time generating capacity.
    That's an old-fashioned concept.


    Nowhere in the post does it say that air conditioners are generating
    power...the reduction of fuel use is due to increased efficiency of
    power usage.

    Improving efficiency by load shedding means hotter homes. Why not just
    mandate that no thermostats can go below 80F?


    It can be dynamic. It doesn't have to be all the time.

    PG&E operates a system they call SmartAC where they can remotely control
    the temperature of the air-conditioning to reduce grid stress to move >consumption to times of less stress.

    They will only do this during certain hours. In return the user gets
    some benefits.

    Sure. As the sun goes down and the wind doesn't blow, turn everybody's
    a/c off. That's better than rolling blackouts.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From KevinJ93@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sat Jun 14 18:12:44 2025
    On 6/14/25 5:02 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/14/2025 4:09 PM, KevinJ93 wrote:
    On 6/14/25 3:29 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/14/2025 2:53 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
    That's not what they are doing. They are changing the load in tiny
    parts of the cycle, 50 or 60 times per second. Changing the load
    waveform.

    No, they are deferring the start of the compressor and/or blower.

    As home thermostats are not precision devices -- AND ONLY MEASURE THE
    TEMPERATURE AT ONE LOCATION IN THE HOUSE'S VOLUME -- an occupant
    would likely never notice if the plant turned on at its "intended"
    setpoint or some delta above.

    The question is whether or not the control algorithm allows the
    local plant to be operated with greater *symmetric* hysteresis
    or if it just lets the cooling cycle be delayed without regard
    to the actual temperature.

    It's just silly to rely on antiquated control approaches when
    it's so easy to have smarts "at the edge".  E.g., how smart is
    it to allow the thermostat to call for cooling (or heat)
    one minute before the setpoint temperature is SCHEDULED
    (by the user's scheduling decisions!) to go up (or down) by
    an amount that likely exceeds the hysteresis in the system?

    E.g., house maintaining 68F for heat and at 1 minute prior to bedtime,
    the thermostat notices it is now 67.9F and calls for heat... when
    the setpoint will be lowered to 62 a minute later?  (and, the
    changing of the setpoint likely causing the heating cycle to be
    prematurely aborted:  "Oh, the house is now at 67.93 degrees
    and the setpoint is 62 so let's shutdown the plant instead of
    waiting for it to attain the OLD setpoint of 68F...")

    Imagine the stresses on the equipment by all this ineffective
    cycling (esp the compressor!)

    Ideally, you want to notice how the system behaves and tune
    your controls to maximize *it's* ability to satisfy the
    user's stated needs while reaping some rewards for the provider
    (and, ultimately, for the user by way of reduced capital
    investments)

    Many thermostats have had those features for at least the last decade.

    My ten year old Carrier thermostat addresses most of those items. It
    also has

    Then, how many minutes BEFORE as setpoint change will it ignore the
    scheduled change?  Does it look at the response of the interior to
    such changes and adapt so the "back off" varies with temperature,
    setpoint difference, outdoor temperature and wind speed?  Otherwise,
    you're just shifting the point at which it makes an unfortunate
    change in control.

    I don't know how many minutes prediction it does but it is supposed to
    do similar to what you describe. There is very little user control, just
    to enable or disable the feature.

    [The thermostat that I designed for my parents, *40* years ago
    does those things.  But, still for a single measurement point
    in the house (e.g., my bedroom was always considerably warmer
    than the rest of the house; the kitchen always considerably
    cooler -- partly because of the house's orientation on the lot
    and partly because of the way the heating was plumbed).  But,
    the thermostat knew how to get the heat (no central air) *to*
    the desired temperature *at* the specified time -- instead of
    simply switching setpoints at those times]

    That's what it's supposed to do. You set the times that you want it to
    be at the target temperature and it is supposed to learn and predict how
    much in advance to start heating/cooling. I have noticed that it starts operating at different times depending upon the weather/existing house temperature. I do have the room temperature logged by the home
    automation system and it seems to reach the target temperatures pretty
    much at the requested times.

    an exterior outside temperature sensor and takes in weather
    predictions over the internet so that it ramps the temperature
    appropriately and maintains a comfortable temperature and humidity.

    I do that here -- adding decision criteria as to when the swamp cooler
    can be called on to provide cooling (cognizant of a "comfort factor").
    If today's OUTDOOR temperature is likely to be more than ~30 degrees
    above the desired indoor temperature, then the cooler is ill-advised
    as refrigeration will be required once the indoor-outdoor differential reaches that point.  As I (currently) have to rely on manual action
    to vent the house adequately, you don't want to have to tell the
    homeowner to close all the windows so the ACbrrr can come online.

    The compressor protection is commonly built into the compressor
    control unit so that any command from the thermostat that compromises
    the compressor safety is ignored until safe.

    The compressor won't usually turn ON until a suitable time has elapsed
    to ensure the compressor's pressure has leaked off to a safe starting point.  But, once commanded on, it will usually turn off as soon as
    told to turn off.  Has it done any meaningful work in that short
    time?  Or, just cycled out of blind devotion to the control signal?

    There can be significant delay from manually altering the target point
    (for both enabling and disabling) but as the control input is not
    visible I don't know whether the thermostat or controller is doing that.

    This makes for some interesting design decisions.  E.g., if the
    user specifies a setpoint of 68F at 7AM and 72F at 7:30AM, it is
    possible that you might need to overshoot the 68F in order to
    be able to attain the 72F.  Likewise, specifying 68F at 7A
    and 65F at 7:30A... should it even bother trying to meet the
    earlier specification given that the user has effectively
    said he doesn't care about that temperature 30 minutes later?

    Historically, the user is allowed to remain ignorant of the costs
    of his decisions.  Largely because the control systems don't
    have the knowledge -- nor ability -- to inform the user.

    "If you raise your cooling temperature by 1 degree, I can save
    you $X today."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to have on Sat Jun 14 18:40:57 2025
    On 6/14/2025 6:12 PM, KevinJ93 wrote:
    E.g., house maintaining 68F for heat and at 1 minute prior to bedtime, >>>> the thermostat notices it is now 67.9F and calls for heat... when
    the setpoint will be lowered to 62 a minute later?  (and, the
    changing of the setpoint likely causing the heating cycle to be
    prematurely aborted:  "Oh, the house is now at 67.93 degrees
    and the setpoint is 62 so let's shutdown the plant instead of
    waiting for it to attain the OLD setpoint of 68F...")

    Imagine the stresses on the equipment by all this ineffective
    cycling (esp the compressor!)

    Ideally, you want to notice how the system behaves and tune
    your controls to maximize *it's* ability to satisfy the
    user's stated needs while reaping some rewards for the provider
    (and, ultimately, for the user by way of reduced capital
    investments)

    Many thermostats have had those features for at least the last decade.

    My ten year old Carrier thermostat addresses most of those items. It also has

    Then, how many minutes BEFORE as setpoint change will it ignore the
    scheduled change?  Does it look at the response of the interior to
    such changes and adapt so the "back off" varies with temperature,
    setpoint difference, outdoor temperature and wind speed?  Otherwise,
    you're just shifting the point at which it makes an unfortunate
    change in control.

    I don't know how many minutes prediction it does but it is supposed to do similar to what you describe. There is very little user control, just to enable
    or disable the feature.

    But the user has created a scenario that the "system" (plant plus field)
    can't make much sense of. If he truly wants the house to be "at least"
    68 degrees until "bedtime", then doesn't he really *mean* "68 until bedtime"? And, NOT "68 until sometime NEAR bedtime".

    I.e., at bedtime, the criteria will be "at least 62 degrees". So, at that point whether it is 68 or 75 in the house will still satisfy the specified criteria of 62 degrees. Why should the thermostat be allowed to bend
    the rules and settle for 67.9 just before bedtime? Wouldn't the user
    have said "67.9 is acceptable within N minutes of bedtime??

    [The thermostat that I designed for my parents, *40* years ago
    does those things.  But, still for a single measurement point
    in the house (e.g., my bedroom was always considerably warmer
    than the rest of the house; the kitchen always considerably
    cooler -- partly because of the house's orientation on the lot
    and partly because of the way the heating was plumbed).  But,
    the thermostat knew how to get the heat (no central air) *to*
    the desired temperature *at* the specified time -- instead of
    simply switching setpoints at those times]

    That's what it's supposed to do. You set the times that you want it to be at the target temperature and it is supposed to learn and predict how much in advance to start heating/cooling. I have noticed that it starts operating at different times depending upon the weather/existing house temperature. I do have the room temperature logged by the home automation system and it seems to
    reach the target temperatures pretty much at the requested times.

    We looked at Google's (Nest) offering and found it performed really poorly
    (I wanted to know what performance I had to beat). Likely is overestimates
    the indoor thermal mass (or underestimates the plant's heating/cooling abilities) in order to not annoy users by leaving them "uncomfortable"
    while it tries to catch up.

    an exterior outside temperature sensor and takes in weather predictions over
    the internet so that it ramps the temperature appropriately and maintains a >>> comfortable temperature and humidity.

    I do that here -- adding decision criteria as to when the swamp cooler
    can be called on to provide cooling (cognizant of a "comfort factor").
    If today's OUTDOOR temperature is likely to be more than ~30 degrees
    above the desired indoor temperature, then the cooler is ill-advised
    as refrigeration will be required once the indoor-outdoor differential
    reaches that point.  As I (currently) have to rely on manual action
    to vent the house adequately, you don't want to have to tell the
    homeowner to close all the windows so the ACbrrr can come online.

    I don't rely on "services" for this data. First, they represent an
    input that can be suspect (another attack vector). But, more importantly,
    they don't reflect conditions *here*. I don't care what the conditions
    are at the airport (no one LIVES there!). And, if I look at the "citizen weather stations" monitored by weather underground, I see the overnight low was reported as 79 -- yet I know it to have been 66 on my porch. The current temperature is claimed to be 104 (though I see "local" sites reporting 102, 103, 104, 105, 106) yet I see 108.

    The compressor protection is commonly built into the compressor control unit
    so that any command from the thermostat that compromises the compressor
    safety is ignored until safe.

    The compressor won't usually turn ON until a suitable time has elapsed
    to ensure the compressor's pressure has leaked off to a safe starting
    point.  But, once commanded on, it will usually turn off as soon as
    told to turn off.  Has it done any meaningful work in that short
    time?  Or, just cycled out of blind devotion to the control signal?

    There can be significant delay from manually altering the target point (for both enabling and disabling) but as the control input is not visible I don't know whether the thermostat or controller is doing that.

    Just wait until the compressor starts. Then, unplug the thermostat
    (so any "protection" has to be entirely within the compressor).
    Wanna bet it shuts down immediately? If the compressor "needed"
    to run for some minimum time, then it would ensure that.

    You'll likely find the *blower* will continue to run to further
    "dissipate" the cooling in the A/N coil (likewise, to cool down
    the heat exchanger after heat has been requested). But, these
    are usually just fixed timers that don't care about what is actually
    happening in the plant. As long as they address the "bulk" need,
    they are likely considered to be adequate (who cares if the blower
    burns a few more watt-hours UNNECESSARILY!?)

    [Some of the ductless units have better instrumentation but no idea
    if they actually leverage that beyond diagnostic purposes. I.e., do
    they shut down their blowers once they see no additional "benefit"
    accruing from their continued use?]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Sun Jun 15 14:30:34 2025
    On 15/06/2025 9:53 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 14 Jun 2025 16:01:50 -0700, KevinJ93 <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On 6/14/25 2:17 PM, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 14 Jun 2025 11:15:40 -0700, John Robertson <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On 2025-06-14 8:50 a.m., john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 14 Jun 2025 15:14:48 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
    <[email protected]d> wrote:

    <snip>

    It can be dynamic. It doesn't have to be all the time.

    PG&E operates a system they call SmartAC where they can remotely control
    the temperature of the air-conditioning to reduce grid stress to move
    consumption to times of less stress.

    They will only do this during certain hours. In return the user gets
    some benefits.

    Sure. As the sun goes down and the wind doesn't blow, turn everybody's
    a/c off. That's better than rolling blackouts.

    John Larkin does like to simplify issues down to a level that even he
    can understand. Turning everybody's a/c down a bit, rather than turning
    them off, is too subtle for him to comprehend.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Carlos E.R.@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Jun 15 09:40:27 2025
    On 2025-06-15 00:29, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/14/2025 2:53 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
    That's not what they are doing. They are changing the load in tiny
    parts of the cycle, 50 or 60 times per second. Changing the load
    waveform.

    No, they are deferring the start of the compressor and/or blower.

    I understand they are adjusting the frequency. My AC doesn't have a
    thermostat, it is continuously adjusted in tiny power adjustments with
    an inverter. Switching a thermostat on/off would destroy it.

    --
    Cheers, Carlos.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Carlos E.R. on Sun Jun 15 01:22:01 2025
    On 6/15/2025 12:40 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
    On 2025-06-15 00:29, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/14/2025 2:53 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
    That's not what they are doing. They are changing the load in tiny parts of >>> the cycle, 50 or 60 times per second. Changing the load waveform.

    No, they are deferring the start of the compressor and/or blower.

    I understand they are adjusting the frequency.

    "The air conditioners were connected to control boards capable of modifying
    the on/off cycle of the compressor depending on the frequency of the grid."

    I.e., deciding when the compressor would run and when it would NOT run.
    E.g., They aren't talking about using VFDs for the compressors.
    Rather, they are trying to alter when compressors are engaged to better
    balance the load so a given "supply" can remain more constant.

    [The frequency of the supply varies depending on how outsized the
    load happens to be at any given point in time]

    My AC doesn't have a thermostat,

    Then how does it know when to run and not run?

    it is continuously adjusted in tiny power adjustments with an inverter. Switching a thermostat on/off would destroy it.

    So, in winter, it still cools?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Jun 15 14:39:41 2025
    On 6/15/2025 1:22 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/15/2025 12:40 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
    On 2025-06-15 00:29, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/14/2025 2:53 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
    That's not what they are doing. They are changing the load in tiny parts of
    the cycle, 50 or 60 times per second. Changing the load waveform.

    No, they are deferring the start of the compressor and/or blower.

    I understand they are adjusting the frequency.

    "The air conditioners were connected to control boards capable of modifying the on/off cycle of the compressor depending on the frequency of the grid."

    I.e., deciding when the compressor would run and when it would NOT run.
    E.g., They aren't talking about using VFDs for the compressors.
    Rather, they are trying to alter when compressors are engaged to better balance the load so a given "supply" can remain more constant.

    [The frequency of the supply varies depending on how outsized the
    load happens to be at any given point in time]

    Here's the original paper:
    <https://www.osti.gov/pages/servlets/purl/2522674>

    In their description of the hardware, you can see that they simply bodged the role of the thermostat to force the compressor on/off per *their* dictates instead of letting it simply track the interior temperature of the edifice.

    My AC doesn't have a thermostat,

    Then how does it know when to run and not run?

    it is continuously adjusted in tiny power adjustments with an inverter.
    Switching a thermostat on/off would destroy it.

    So, in winter, it still cools?



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Carlos E.R.@21:1/5 to Don Y on Mon Jun 16 13:03:32 2025
    On 2025-06-15 10:22, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/15/2025 12:40 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
    On 2025-06-15 00:29, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/14/2025 2:53 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

    ...

    My AC doesn't have a thermostat,

    Then how does it know when to run and not run?

    It is not an ON/OFF thermostat, it is more likely a PID controller,
    probably implemented in software.

    The result is that the compressor, once the target temp is reached, runs
    at low speed, matching the exact heat/cold wasted and maintaining a
    constant temperature. There is an inverter controlling the speed of the compressor.


    it is continuously adjusted in tiny power adjustments with an
    inverter. Switching a thermostat on/off would destroy it.

    So, in winter, it still cools?

    No, if powered the air would flow, but the compressor would be stopped. Actually, the user would push a button in the remote, and the unit would generate heat instead.

    --
    Cheers, Carlos.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Carlos E.R. on Mon Jun 16 08:07:58 2025
    On 6/16/2025 4:03 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
    My AC doesn't have a thermostat,

    Then how does it know when to run and not run?

    It is not an ON/OFF thermostat, it is more likely a PID controller, probably implemented in software.

    The result is that the compressor, once the target temp is reached, runs at low
    speed, matching the exact heat/cold wasted and maintaining a constant temperature. There is an inverter controlling the speed of the compressor.

    Then, if you were to have been included in the survey, they would have
    designed a different "controller" -- one that "lied" to the temperature
    sensor in your unit to coerce it to use less (or more) power. (They effectively disconnected the thermostats in the buildings that participated
    in the trial)

    I posted a link to the actual paper, elsewhere this thread.

    it is continuously adjusted in tiny power adjustments with an inverter.
    Switching a thermostat on/off would destroy it.

    So, in winter, it still cools?

    No, if powered the air would flow, but the compressor would be stopped. Actually, the user would push a button in the remote, and the unit would generate heat instead.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From legg@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Mon Jun 16 12:13:27 2025
    On Sat, 14 Jun 2025 15:14:48 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
    <[email protected]d> wrote:


    This is an automated translation (DeepL) of an article I found today;
    the original is in Spanish. There is an article in English at the IEEEE,
    but you need an account to read.

    <https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/10783092>

    <https://ecoinventos.com/un-equipo-de-investigacion-logro-coordinar-100-aires-acondicionados-domesticos-para-estabilizar-la-red-electrica-en-tiempo-real/>

    *A research team has managed to coordinate 100 domestic air conditioners
    to stabilise the power grid in real time, as if they were a flexible
    power plant.*

    5-6 minutes

    A research team demonstrated that many residential air conditioners can
    be coordinated to support the power grid without affecting the comfort
    of users.


    Just because you can, doesn't mean it's a good idea.

    Better just to distribute some kind of request and let
    the end user respond (or not).

    Otherwise it's just one more thing that prevents operation
    or another com-hacking vulnerability.

    RL

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to legg on Mon Jun 16 13:25:40 2025
    On 6/16/2025 9:13 AM, legg wrote:
    Just because you can, doesn't mean it's a good idea.

    Better just to distribute some kind of request and let
    the end user respond (or not).

    The problem is your control algorithm needs to KNOW how the
    field will respond to the control. If there is some
    elective action, then your algorithm just devolves to wish
    fulfillment.

    Otherwise it's just one more thing that prevents operation
    or another com-hacking vulnerability.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)