Don Y <[email protected]d> wrote:

On 4/2/2025 4:23 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Don Y <[email protected]d> wrote:

I need a full-color, durable decal to label a front panel.
The panel is ~8x17". I'm only looking for prototype quantities
(someone else can deal with production quantities and "revised
artwork").

I think I can just color print the image, 1:1, laminate it
and use a spray adhesive to affix it to the actual panel.

For prototypes or one-offs, I print in mirror-image on an overhead projector acetate sheet using a laser printer. The print side is then spray-painted white (several very thin coats, allowed to dry between
coats, so as not to dissolve the printing) and stuck to the panel with double-sided sticky tape.

Do you cover the entire surface with tape? Or, just the edges?

Usually the entire surface and a bit beyond, then trim off the excess.

Most of the double-sided tape I've used would have too much tack
if used to completely cover it; removing the decal would be tedious.

My experience has been that the weakest bond is between the print and
the acetate sheet. Pulling the acetate sheet from a corner leaves a lot
of the paint and print on the sticky tape; some of the tape can be
removed mechanically and the rest comes off with solvent.

[I just want the decal to stick to the surface, now cling for dear life!]

On double-sided sticky tape it will - your biggest problem will be
getting it lined up before it sticks in the wrong place. I have two
methods:

1) Put the tape on the panel, then use a soldering iron and/or file to
clear the tape from the holes where the control shafts and switches will
be. By shining a light through the holes I can then line-up some +
marks on the print, which correspond to the hole centres, while I bring
the decal onto the sticky surface in exactly the right place.

2) Put the tape on the panel etc as before. then line up one long edge
of the decal on the edge of the panel and let it touch. The decal can
then be swung down, using that edge as a hinge, and carefull pressed
onto the panel starting from the hinge edge.

Once it has stuck, any attempt to reposition it or remove any air
bubbles will probably finish up tearing the print off the back.

The unprinted acetate surface is fairly durable and the print side is towards the panel, so it can't be scuffed off.

Yes, I took that approach with a digitizer overlay. But, that's a pretty gentle environment; you're never poking at it with anything that may
have an edge.

True, but i have known these acetate labels to survive nearly 5 years
outdoors on a south-facing wall (in English weather, which is not the
severest of UV tests).

If you need to change it, the sticky residue from the tape can be
removed with white spirit or petrol.

I was hoping to eliminate the use of solvents.

Many products, here, bear "printed labels". Historically, these have
been paper; removing them is a chore as the label needs to absorb a
solvent to facilitate its removal (I use water, alcohol, mineral
spirits and, rarely, acetone -- as it often attacks the surface to
which the label is adhered).

The acetate sheet can be ripped off, so the solvent attacks the sticky
stuff fairly directly.

But, there are also similar labels printed on a plastic/nylon
sheet. These can be removed "intact" -- with patience -- just
by getting a corner "started". The adhesive used is weak enough
(and the label material strong enough) that it doesn't tear the
label as it is removed. And, the printed content is well-bonded
to the substrate such that it doesn't require any additional
coating (or, that coating is applied in the process of making
the label).

So, I'll either print on paper and use a laminating *pouch* (so
both sides of the paper are coated in plastic instead of having
paper on one side) OR try mylar (or acetate) and hope the printed
material doesn't "linger" after the adhesive is released.

The acetate sheets are so cheap that it doesn't matter if you destroy
one when you remove it. If they are not too big, you can also print
3-up or 4-up on an A4 sheet, so you can easily keep a few spares.

As I said in my post, it's just to get through prototypes so it
looks "professional" to VCs and is as *functional* as the real
decal would be ("How do you service this? It seems awfully
costly to adopt a replace-as-FRU policy")

You can see a picture of the sort of results I have managed to obtain
at:
http://www.poppyrecords.co.uk/other/DistortionMeter/Manual.pdf


--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 4/2/2025 7:57 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Don Y <[email protected]d> wrote:

On 4/2/2025 4:23 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Don Y <[email protected]d> wrote:

I need a full-color, durable decal to label a front panel.
The panel is ~8x17". I'm only looking for prototype quantities
(someone else can deal with production quantities and "revised
artwork").

I think I can just color print the image, 1:1, laminate it
and use a spray adhesive to affix it to the actual panel.

For prototypes or one-offs, I print in mirror-image on an overhead
projector acetate sheet using a laser printer. The print side is then
spray-painted white (several very thin coats, allowed to dry between
coats, so as not to dissolve the printing) and stuck to the panel with
double-sided sticky tape.

Do you cover the entire surface with tape? Or, just the edges?

Usually the entire surface and a bit beyond, then trim off the excess.

Doesn't that make it hard to remove? Or, are yours "small(er)"?
(Note my smallest is 8x17 and they quickly get larger) I was
assuming I would need a low tack adhesive -- almost like Post-It
notes...

Most of the double-sided tape I've used would have too much tack
if used to completely cover it; removing the decal would be tedious.

My experience has been that the weakest bond is between the print and
the acetate sheet. Pulling the acetate sheet from a corner leaves a lot
of the paint and print on the sticky tape; some of the tape can be
removed mechanically and the rest comes off with solvent.

I'm hoping that having the front AND BACK sides be a single sheet
(i.e., the laminating film) would allow it to come off cleanly.
If the adhesive can be low enough tack that it gives up the
ghost easily...

[I just want the decal to stick to the surface, now cling for dear life!]

On double-sided sticky tape it will - your biggest problem will be
getting it lined up before it sticks in the wrong place. I have two
methods:

1) Put the tape on the panel, then use a soldering iron and/or file to
clear the tape from the holes where the control shafts and switches will
be. By shining a light through the holes I can then line-up some +
marks on the print, which correspond to the hole centres, while I bring
the decal onto the sticky surface in exactly the right place.

2) Put the tape on the panel etc as before. then line up one long edge
of the decal on the edge of the panel and let it touch. The decal can
then be swung down, using that edge as a hinge, and carefull pressed
onto the panel starting from the hinge edge.

I was planning on making a form onto which the label could be
positioned "upside down". Then, mate the label-carrying form
to the panel surface.

With the decal being thick (consider: two layers of 7 mil laminate
plus the "print stock" within), I am hoping to avoid the electrostaic
cling that tends to cause flimsier materials to "jump" to the other
surface, unbidden.

Once it has stuck, any attempt to reposition it or remove any air
bubbles will probably finish up tearing the print off the back.

The unprinted acetate surface is fairly durable and the print side is
towards the panel, so it can't be scuffed off.

Yes, I took that approach with a digitizer overlay. But, that's a pretty
gentle environment; you're never poking at it with anything that may
have an edge.

True, but i have known these acetate labels to survive nearly 5 years outdoors on a south-facing wall (in English weather, which is not the severest of UV tests).

Yes, but no one is likely *poking* at it.

If you need to change it, the sticky residue from the tape can be
removed with white spirit or petrol.

I was hoping to eliminate the use of solvents.

Many products, here, bear "printed labels". Historically, these have
been paper; removing them is a chore as the label needs to absorb a
solvent to facilitate its removal (I use water, alcohol, mineral
spirits and, rarely, acetone -- as it often attacks the surface to
which the label is adhered).

The acetate sheet can be ripped off, so the solvent attacks the sticky
stuff fairly directly.

I can try it. I will try a spray adhesive instead of double-sided tape
as that seems like it would be easier to address a large surface.
E.g., when you reinstall a headliner, that's the approach taken.

But, there are also similar labels printed on a plastic/nylon
sheet. These can be removed "intact" -- with patience -- just
by getting a corner "started". The adhesive used is weak enough
(and the label material strong enough) that it doesn't tear the
label as it is removed. And, the printed content is well-bonded
to the substrate such that it doesn't require any additional
coating (or, that coating is applied in the process of making
the label).

So, I'll either print on paper and use a laminating *pouch* (so
both sides of the paper are coated in plastic instead of having
paper on one side) OR try mylar (or acetate) and hope the printed
material doesn't "linger" after the adhesive is released.

The acetate sheets are so cheap that it doesn't matter if you destroy
one when you remove it. If they are not too big, you can also print
3-up or 4-up on an A4 sheet, so you can easily keep a few spares.

I consider the label to be discardable. I just want to make it
easy to remove and replace so there isn't much labor (time)
involved as that sort of repair would have to be done /in situ/;
the more time a "service man" has to spend at a site, the more
costly the repair would be. (this is why I prefer replacement
for most items -- carry the "failed" unit back to the depot
for analysis/repair but get the customer back up and running
quickly.

As I said in my post, it's just to get through prototypes so it
looks "professional" to VCs and is as *functional* as the real
decal would be ("How do you service this? It seems awfully
costly to adopt a replace-as-FRU policy")

You can see a picture of the sort of results I have managed to obtain
at:
http://www.poppyrecords.co.uk/other/DistortionMeter/Manual.pdf

Do you precut the openings? Or, as you mentioned above, "burn"
through the acetate once the label is affixed (less of an alignment
problem, there)?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wed, 02 Apr 2025 07:41:38 -0700, john larkin <jlArbor.com> wrote:

On Wed, 2 Apr 2025 12:49:14 +0100, John R Walliker
<[email protected]> wrote:

On 02/04/2025 04:01, john larkin wrote:

On Tue, 1 Apr 2025 14:18:23 -0700, Don Y <[email protected]d>
wrote:

I need a full-color, durable decal to label a front panel.
The panel is ~8x17". I'm only looking for prototype quantities
(someone else can deal with production quantities and "revised
artwork").

I think I can just color print the image, 1:1, laminate it
and use a spray adhesive to affix it to the actual panel.

This would be a win as it would be easy to replace when access
to the hidden fasteners is required thereby buggering the
decal. (imagine doing same with a "real" decal and hoping
to get such a large item off "intact" soas to leave a virgin
surface for a replacement!)

I only have hot laminating capability (but could access cold
if there was an overwhelming reason to do so -- e.g., single-sided
lamination?).

I can use a 7mil film to stand up to the mechanical abuses that
will be encountered.

No idea how the colors in the print would fare, over time.
Nor if the film would yellow or become brittle with age.

But, both seem like they are likely far enough in the future
that it would be easy to dismiss them, now.

Anything else to consider?

We have our boxes anodized and laser the artwork. That's so much
easier than making labels.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/phhyn6p5lnwyza9of9qil/B953_Right.jpg?rlkey=xuu5qclmygkruncrat6li1u3j&raw=1

I'd expect one could inkjet art onto a box too.

There are now some very impressive UV-cured colour inkjet
printers intended for printing onto aluminium and plastic
panels and boxes. I saw some spectacular examples at an
exhibition recently. They were boxes supplied by Hammond.
The printing seemed very durable and the colours were very
striking. Resolution looked much better than silk screened
panels.
John

It looks like the silk layer on PC boards is not silkscreened any
more, it's inkjet printed. 50 or even 40 mil ref designators are
legible.

If there's any yellow in the original it might fade over a few years
and look generally purple-ish due to the only fast colors, cyan and
magenta. I'd look into that before trying anything based on ink jet
printing. Silk screen it. Can't go wrong with that; well proven,
time-tested old-style tech.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Don Y <[email protected]d> wrote:

On 4/2/2025 7:57 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

[...]

Usually the entire surface and a bit beyond, then trim off the excess.

Doesn't that make it hard to remove? Or, are yours "small(er)"?
(Note my smallest is 8x17 and they quickly get larger)

Most of mine are on die-cast boxes about 4" x 6". There is always a
layer of double-sided tape showing at the cut edge, so it can be prised
open at the corner with a knife or similar imstrument.

I was
assuming I would need a low tack adhesive -- almost like Post-It
notes...

There is an adhesive called "Copydex" in the U.K., which is a latex
emulsion that becomes rubbery when the water component evaporates. "Low
tack" would be a polite way of describing it - the problem isan't
removing it, but getting it to stay on in the first place. I have used
it to stick paper copies of the artwork onto the front panel to use as
a drilling jig, then it can be peeled off easily. The latex tended to
wrap itself around the drill bit . . . followed by the paper label.

I have used PVA adhesive, with much greater success. It wouldn't be any
use for permanent fixing on metal but the non-waterproof grade holds the
label long enough to allow drilling and can easily be removed with water
and a scouring pad.

[...]

I was planning on making a form onto which the label could be
positioned "upside down". Then, mate the label-carrying form
to the panel surface.

That's a good idea if all your panels are the same size - no two of mine
are ever alike.

[...]

True, but i have known these acetate labels to survive nearly 5 years outdoors on a south-facing wall (in English weather, which is not the severest of UV tests).

Yes, but no one is likely *poking* at it.

My front panels get a bit of prodding and scuffing - but nothing too
violent.

[...]

The acetate sheet can be ripped off, so the solvent attacks the sticky stuff fairly directly.

I can try it.

If you use White Spirit, the smell will be no worse than fresh paint and
will clear quite quickly. There is also a form of refined petroleum
("White Gas") sold by Colemans for their camping stoves, that is more
flammable but doesn't leave any lingering smells at all.

I will try a spray adhesive instead of double-sided tape
as that seems like it would be easier to address a large surface.
E.g., when you reinstall a headliner, that's the approach taken.

You might find the solvent attacks the print. Several thin layers,
sprayed from a distance, are preferable to one thick layer sprayed
closely.

[...]

(this is why I prefer replacement
for most items -- carry the "failed" unit back to the depot
for analysis/repair but get the customer back up and running
quickly.

And doesn't depend on the serviceman having the skill and experience to
spot the cause that caused the cause of the fault.

[...]

You can see a picture of the sort of results I have managed to obtain
at:
http://www.poppyrecords.co.uk/other/DistortionMeter/Manual.pdf

Do you precut the openings? Or, as you mentioned above, "burn"
through the acetate once the label is affixed (less of an alignment
problem, there)?

After fixing the acetate sheet I burn them through with a soldering
iron, then trim up the flash with a rat-tailed file (file towards the
panel, never away from it). On that particular piece of equipment, I
may have cut around the meter hole with a knife because it is rather
large.


--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wed, 02 Apr 2025 18:16:40 +0100, Cursitor Doom <[email protected]>
wrote:

On Wed, 02 Apr 2025 07:41:38 -0700, john larkin <jlArbor.com> wrote:

On Wed, 2 Apr 2025 12:49:14 +0100, John R Walliker
<[email protected]> wrote:

On 02/04/2025 04:01, john larkin wrote:

On Tue, 1 Apr 2025 14:18:23 -0700, Don Y <[email protected]d> >>>> wrote:

I need a full-color, durable decal to label a front panel.
The panel is ~8x17". I'm only looking for prototype quantities
(someone else can deal with production quantities and "revised
artwork").

I think I can just color print the image, 1:1, laminate it
and use a spray adhesive to affix it to the actual panel.

This would be a win as it would be easy to replace when access
to the hidden fasteners is required thereby buggering the
decal. (imagine doing same with a "real" decal and hoping
to get such a large item off "intact" soas to leave a virgin
surface for a replacement!)

I only have hot laminating capability (but could access cold
if there was an overwhelming reason to do so -- e.g., single-sided
lamination?).

I can use a 7mil film to stand up to the mechanical abuses that
will be encountered.

No idea how the colors in the print would fare, over time.
Nor if the film would yellow or become brittle with age.

But, both seem like they are likely far enough in the future
that it would be easy to dismiss them, now.

Anything else to consider?

We have our boxes anodized and laser the artwork. That's so much
easier than making labels.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/phhyn6p5lnwyza9of9qil/B953_Right.jpg?rlkey=xuu5qclmygkruncrat6li1u3j&raw=1

I'd expect one could inkjet art onto a box too.

There are now some very impressive UV-cured colour inkjet
printers intended for printing onto aluminium and plastic
panels and boxes. I saw some spectacular examples at an
exhibition recently. They were boxes supplied by Hammond.
The printing seemed very durable and the colours were very
striking. Resolution looked much better than silk screened
panels.
John

It looks like the silk layer on PC boards is not silkscreened any
more, it's inkjet printed. 50 or even 40 mil ref designators are
legible.

If there's any yellow in the original it might fade over a few years
and look generally purple-ish due to the only fast colors, cyan and
magenta. I'd look into that before trying anything based on ink jet
printing. Silk screen it. Can't go wrong with that; well proven,
time-tested old-style tech.

Our boards are blue solder mask and yellow ref designators. I'll leave
one out on the deck, in the fog and rain and the (even-sometimes) sun.

It looks to me that some of our board houses are using inkjets for the
silk layers. More on proto-sized runs.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 4/2/2025 10:23 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Don Y <[email protected]d> wrote:

On 4/2/2025 7:57 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

[...]

Usually the entire surface and a bit beyond, then trim off the excess.

Doesn't that make it hard to remove? Or, are yours "small(er)"?
(Note my smallest is 8x17 and they quickly get larger)

Most of mine are on die-cast boxes about 4" x 6". There is always a
layer of double-sided tape showing at the cut edge, so it can be prised
open at the corner with a knife or similar imstrument.

Hmmmm... the exemplar you provided seemed to be larger than that (?)

I was
assuming I would need a low tack adhesive -- almost like Post-It
notes...

There is an adhesive called "Copydex" in the U.K., which is a latex
emulsion that becomes rubbery when the water component evaporates. "Low tack" would be a polite way of describing it - the problem isan't
removing it, but getting it to stay on in the first place. I have used
it to stick paper copies of the artwork onto the front panel to use as
a drilling jig, then it can be peeled off easily. The latex tended to
wrap itself around the drill bit . . . followed by the paper label.

Yes, we have similar adhesives ("rubber cement", etc.).

There are actually a shitload of different adhesives available
for different purposes. Usually the desire is for strong holding.
But, some applications deliberately want low tack (e.g., in masking
artwork)

I have used PVA adhesive, with much greater success. It wouldn't be any
use for permanent fixing on metal but the non-waterproof grade holds the label long enough to allow drilling and can easily be removed with water
and a scouring pad.

I used a spray adhesive to repair a headliner. Granted, it's not
a heavy weight to support. *But*, it is "upside down" perpetually
(so, gravity is trying to pull it off) and very large (a dozen square
feet?).

I will have to see if I can locate the remnants of the can as I am
sure I didn't use all of it.

I was planning on making a form onto which the label could be
positioned "upside down". Then, mate the label-carrying form
to the panel surface.

That's a good idea if all your panels are the same size - no two of mine
are ever alike.

I have some applications that are "multiples" and others that are
singletons.

If I constrain the singletons, then I may be able to make a
"customizable form" that I can readily adapt to the needs of
the instance. Note that it doesn't have to hold any significant
weight so need not be "substantial" in composition; rather, just
something that acts as "many hands" holding parts of the label
until it is time to release ALL of it.

True, but i have known these acetate labels to survive nearly 5 years
outdoors on a south-facing wall (in English weather, which is not the
severest of UV tests).

Yes, but no one is likely *poking* at it.

My front panels get a bit of prodding and scuffing - but nothing too
violent.

I opted for the 7 mil variety of laminating film as it adds a bit
more armor (3 mil is just cosmetic; 5 mil is probably marginal;
10 mil is probably overkill)

The acetate sheet can be ripped off, so the solvent attacks the sticky
stuff fairly directly.

I can try it.

If you use White Spirit, the smell will be no worse than fresh paint and
will clear quite quickly. There is also a form of refined petroleum
("White Gas") sold by Colemans for their camping stoves, that is more flammable but doesn't leave any lingering smells at all.

For personal use, I am not averse to mild solvents (I have nothing
stronger than xylene and MEK on hand -- though I rarely progress beyond
mineral spirits when looking to dissolve adhesives as some of the
solvents are too aggressive against plastic surfaces -- or, will take
the "patina" off).

I tried "odorless mineral spirits", once, and found it hugely disappointing compared to "real" mineral spirits.

I will try a spray adhesive instead of double-sided tape
as that seems like it would be easier to address a large surface.
E.g., when you reinstall a headliner, that's the approach taken.

You might find the solvent attacks the print. Several thin layers,
sprayed from a distance, are preferable to one thick layer sprayed
closely.

I need to find the leftovers, first, so I can make a test pass with
it. I can visalize the can -- but not the WRITING on it! :<

(this is why I prefer replacement
for most items -- carry the "failed" unit back to the depot
for analysis/repair but get the customer back up and running
quickly.

And doesn't depend on the serviceman having the skill and experience to
spot the cause that caused the cause of the fault.

Exactly. Use him as an extension of more capable peoples' (based in the
depot) limbs.

And, the customer sees a quick turn-around -- instead of standing
over the serviceman's shoulder wondering WHEN he will be done and
*if* he will actually leave them with a functional system.

You can see a picture of the sort of results I have managed to obtain
at:
http://www.poppyrecords.co.uk/other/DistortionMeter/Manual.pdf

Do you precut the openings? Or, as you mentioned above, "burn"
through the acetate once the label is affixed (less of an alignment
problem, there)?

After fixing the acetate sheet I burn them through with a soldering
iron, then trim up the flash with a rat-tailed file (file towards the
panel, never away from it). On that particular piece of equipment, I
may have cut around the meter hole with a knife because it is rather
large.

A *pointed* Xacto knife isn't suitable for the whole task? Or, do you risk
the cut "tearing"/"running" through the acetate to areas undesired?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Don Y <[email protected]d> wrote:

On 4/2/2025 10:23 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Don Y <[email protected]d> wrote:

On 4/2/2025 7:57 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

[...]

Usually the entire surface and a bit beyond, then trim off the excess.

Doesn't that make it hard to remove? Or, are yours "small(er)"?
(Note my smallest is 8x17 and they quickly get larger)

Most of mine are on die-cast boxes about 4" x 6". There is always a
layer of double-sided tape showing at the cut edge, so it can be prised open at the corner with a knife or similar imstrument.

Hmmmm... the exemplar you provided seemed to be larger than that (?)

That's the biggest one I have made, about the size of an A4 sheet of
paper; I chose it because the picture of it it was the easiest to find.
There's a rather poor picture of a smaller one at: <http://www.poppyrecords.co.uk/other/Microphones/StereoCrossedRibbons/In structions.pdf>

I was
assuming I would need a low tack adhesive -- almost like Post-It
notes...

There is an adhesive called "Copydex" in the U.K., which is a latex emulsion that becomes rubbery when the water component evaporates. "Low tack" would be a polite way of describing it - the problem isan't
removing it, but getting it to stay on in the first place. I have used
it to stick paper copies of the artwork onto the front panel to use as
a drilling jig, then it can be peeled off easily. The latex tended to
wrap itself around the drill bit . . . followed by the paper label.

Yes, we have similar adhesives ("rubber cement", etc.).

There are some very strong rubber cements with organic solvents, Copydex
is a water-based emulsion and is very weak.

[...]

But, some applications deliberately want low tack (e.g., in masking
artwork)

That's the sort of thing Copydex is used for, you can rub it off with
finger pressure.

[...]

I used a spray adhesive to repair a headliner. Granted, it's not
a heavy weight to support. *But*, it is "upside down" perpetually
(so, gravity is trying to pull it off) and very large (a dozen square
feet?).

The area shouldn't matter, for every extra square foot of material there
is an extra square foot of adhesive.

[...]

I opted for the 7 mil variety of laminating film as it adds a bit
more armor (3 mil is just cosmetic; 5 mil is probably marginal;
10 mil is probably overkill)

My sheets are 0.004" thick, a bit flimsy by your standards.

[...]

(I have nothing
stronger than xylene and MEK on hand

Either of those should work.

[...]

After fixing the acetate sheet I burn them through with a soldering
iron, then trim up the flash with a rat-tailed file (file towards the panel, never away from it). On that particular piece of equipment, I
may have cut around the meter hole with a knife because it is rather
large.

A *pointed* Xacto knife isn't suitable for the whole task? Or, do you risk the cut "tearing"/"running" through the acetate to areas undesired?

The holes produced that way tend to be jagged and the knife is soon
blunted by cutting into the aluminium panel. A soldering iron gives a
nice smooth finish but throws up a 'flash' of melted material which is
easily trimmed off with a file. It is a quicker and more accurate
process than trying to cut tiny circles with a knife. The knife is good
for trimming excess tape off the outside edges.


--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

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On 4/3/2025 4:36 AM, Martin Brown wrote:

Hot laminated will stand up to a lot of abuse provided that you don't punch any
holes through it (might be an issue on a front panel). If you glue only and the
seal is good then totally weatherproof.

None of these are exposed to weather. There may be some "moisture"
present if someone opts to "wipe clean" with a wet towel/sponge.
But, the fact that you DON'T need a perforation to gain value from
the decal works in your favor; e.g., no need to install jewels for
every indicator that perforates the panel! Just cut an opening in
the PRINTED portion encased in the mylar.

This is also a win for haptics where a regular panel would pose
additional mounting problems.

Staple it through the paper and water ingress will be a big problem. You could
punch the holes out oversize in the paper and then cut only laminated plastic to plastic (or print onto laser printer plastic).

Or, use "dry lamination".

Avery OL-1000?
Cheers

+1

You can buy waterproof laserprinable clear and white self adhesive plastic material from Avery or (other vendors). A4 is easily available.

You might have to piece it up from 2x A4 though as I expect A3 will be extrortionate and an A3 colour laser printer even more so!

And then you either have to overlap the pieces or leave a seam through
which moisture can wick. In each case, a visible artifact. (and,
more likely to be exposed to moisture during a wipe cleaning as
that seam would undoubtedly not be confined to areas around
perforative obstructions -- like knobs)

Some shop sign production folk might be able to do you a special deal if you wanted enough to meet their minimum quantity requirements and provided them with the self made artwork in exactly the right format.

Originally thought of very thin lexan. But, realized that offered
very little advantage over the laminating film.

The funky aspect of the lamination approach is the surface feels
"soft"/pliable instead of hard/rigid like under lexan. But, it's
only something that a user MIGHT observe and wouldn't alter his
interactions with it.

That is how signs for one of my hobbies get done as foreigner jobs at a sign manufacturers using what would otherwise be waste offcuts.

I still have to see how large my approach will accommodate. Next
one is 22x17 -- and there are still larger ones after that. (I
think the dry laminating process will save me, there)

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On 4/3/2025 1:11 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

There is an adhesive called "Copydex" in the U.K., which is a latex
emulsion that becomes rubbery when the water component evaporates. "Low >>> tack" would be a polite way of describing it - the problem isan't
removing it, but getting it to stay on in the first place. I have used
it to stick paper copies of the artwork onto the front panel to use as
a drilling jig, then it can be peeled off easily. The latex tended to
wrap itself around the drill bit . . . followed by the paper label.

Yes, we have similar adhesives ("rubber cement", etc.).

There are some very strong rubber cements with organic solvents, Copydex
is a water-based emulsion and is very weak.

"Rubber cement" (generic) is generally regarded as a poor adhesive,
here. It is often used just to glue paper objects together (e.g.,
photos, collage, etc.). The fact that it can be easily removed
(e.g., for mis-application) is an asset.

It is not generally regarded as a good long term adhesive because
it tends to "rot" (for want of a better word). It is also often
acidic so can damage the items adhered with it.

Perhaps the most notable part is that it can be used as a sort of contact adhesive (apply to both surfaces, let dry, mate) instead of having to
work with it "wet" (which is also possible but a bit messier)

But, some applications deliberately want low tack (e.g., in masking
artwork)

That's the sort of thing Copydex is used for, you can rub it off with
finger pressure.

Ditto with the rubber cement. You don't end up with the "super-glue"
situation (where your finger now wants to stick to everything!)

I used a spray adhesive to repair a headliner. Granted, it's not
a heavy weight to support. *But*, it is "upside down" perpetually
(so, gravity is trying to pull it off) and very large (a dozen square
feet?).

The area shouldn't matter, for every extra square foot of material there
is an extra square foot of adhesive.

But applying and removing it present challenges. Imagine one of
your project boxes that is 4 ft by 4 ft and trying to get things
aligned -- while working on it FROM BELOW!

(I have nothing
stronger than xylene and MEK on hand

Either of those should work.

I would hope NOT to need to resort to either of those. I always prefer
using the least volatile/active substance that will meet the challenge
out of respect for the other parts involved (e.g., acetone makes a mess
of most things).

Remember, there are other things beside the panel that can come in
contact with any applied solvent.

After fixing the acetate sheet I burn them through with a soldering
iron, then trim up the flash with a rat-tailed file (file towards the
panel, never away from it). On that particular piece of equipment, I
may have cut around the meter hole with a knife because it is rather
large.

A *pointed* Xacto knife isn't suitable for the whole task? Or, do you risk >> the cut "tearing"/"running" through the acetate to areas undesired?

The holes produced that way tend to be jagged and the knife is soon
blunted by cutting into the aluminium panel.

OK. Even a swivel blade would "find" the panel.

A soldering iron gives a
nice smooth finish but throws up a 'flash' of melted material which is
easily trimmed off with a file. It is a quicker and more accurate
process than trying to cut tiny circles with a knife. The knife is good
for trimming excess tape off the outside edges.

What about a rotary tool like a dremel to abrade the plastic that
isn't "backed" by aluminum?

I am planning on just using punches to knock out any holes (in the
laminate and/or printed sheet) BEFORE mating to the panel. Any
holes (though the entire decal) would also serve to orient the
decal to the panel; less chance of it coming into adhering contact
in the wrong place...

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On Wed, 2 Apr 2025 11:53:05 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <[email protected]> wrote:

Martin Rid <[email protected]> wrote:

Don Y <[email protected]d> Wrote in message:r

I need a full-color, durable decal to label a front panel.The panel is
~8x17". I'm only looking for prototype quantities(someone else can deal >>> with production quantities and "revisedartwork").I think I can just
color print the image, 1:1, laminate itand use a spray adhesive to affix >>> it to the actual panel.This would be a win as it would be easy to
replace when accessto the hidden fasteners is required thereby buggering >>> thedecal. (imagine doing same with a "real" decal and hopingto get such >>> a large item off "intact" soas to leave a virginsurface for a
replacement!)I only have hot laminating capability (but could access
coldif there was an overwhelming reason to do so -- e.g.,
single-sidedlamination?).I can use a 7mil film to stand up to the
mechanical abuses thatwill be encountered.No idea how the colors in the
print would fare, over time.Nor if the film would yellow or become
brittle with age.But, both seem like they are likely far enough in the
futurethat it would be easy to dismiss them, now.Anything else to consider? >>

Avery OL-1000?
Cheers

We�ve used inkjet printable, peel-and-stick vinyl, covered with water/UV >protective film similar to that Avery stuff.

IIRC I bought it from a custom motorcycle place, but it�s widely available.

Nowadays we get the Chinese box supplier to laser-engrave the labels into >black powder coat.

Makes lovely white on black, without exposing the metal surface.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

We use our Boss laser to do the art onto blue anodized aluminum boxes.
It looks great. The art look nice soft white but is electrically
conductive.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Don Y <[email protected]d> wrote:

[...]

A soldering iron gives a
nice smooth finish but throws up a 'flash' of melted material which is easily trimmed off with a file. It is a quicker and more accurate
process than trying to cut tiny circles with a knife. The knife is good for trimming excess tape off the outside edges.

What about a rotary tool like a dremel to abrade the plastic that
isn't "backed" by aluminum?

It might work but with acetate sheet iit is more likely to melt it by
friction, rather than cut it. Acetate is notorious for being difficult
to cut without tearing, which is why disc recording blanks are always
made of cellulose nitrate, despite erroneously being called "Acetates".

I am planning on just using punches to knock out any holes (in the
laminate and/or printed sheet) BEFORE mating to the panel. Any
holes (though the entire decal) would also serve to orient the
decal to the panel; less chance of it coming into adhering contact
in the wrong place...

If you have pre-punched the sheet. alignment is simple: put pegs through
the holes in the sheets and use them to align with those the panel. The 'alignment tool' could be a piece of wood with plastic-sleeved nails in strategic locations. Drop the adhesive-coated sheet over it, then offer
it up to the panel.


--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

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On 4/3/2025 1:07 PM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

I am planning on just using punches to knock out any holes (in the
laminate and/or printed sheet) BEFORE mating to the panel. Any
holes (though the entire decal) would also serve to orient the
decal to the panel; less chance of it coming into adhering contact
in the wrong place...

If you have pre-punched the sheet. alignment is simple: put pegs through
the holes in the sheets and use them to align with those the panel. The

Yes, my reference to a "form", up-thread. Even without perforations,
one can use a form to justify the *edges* of the label relative to the
edges of the panel. Similar to affixing a label to optical disc media.

I.e., anything other than trying to do it "free-hand".

'alignment tool' could be a piece of wood with plastic-sleeved nails in strategic locations.

Or, for labels that vary but conform to an underlying pattern, wooden
dowels pushed into a perforated board.

Drop the adhesive-coated sheet over it, then offer
it up to the panel.

Rather, the panel ONTO it (as the panel is less likely to change
any of its physical characteristics than a flexible label might!

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