• Trump's latest lunacy

    From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 21 01:33:08 2025
    I may be being unfair here, but the latest claim amongst American who
    like Trump's tariffs is that the Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits
    Scheme is a non-tariff barrier to trade. They may be the lunatics
    involved here rather than Trump himself.

    The Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme buys medicines which have
    been approved as effective and cost-effective, and sells them on cheaply
    to patients whose doctors have prescribed the medicines.

    It's no kind of barrier to trade - anybody who wants a particular drug
    can buy it directly from the manufacturer at a price they negotiate with manufacturer.

    They won't have the buying power of the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme,
    which buys in much larger volumes, and employs people who know exactly
    what they are buying, and who the alternative suppliers are.

    When I read the New Yorker I see ads for medicines aimed directly at
    consumers. I don't see them in periodicals aimed only at the Australian
    market, not because they are illegal, but because not enough people in Australia would act on such advertisements.

    We all know that if a drug is safe and effective we will be able to get
    more cheaply through our doctors and the Australian Pharmaceutical
    Benefits Scheme.

    There is a lively market for illegal drugs in Australia - tests on the
    outflow from our sewage systems demonstrate that a lot cocaine and other illegal drugs do get consumed here,

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/mar/12/australia-drug-use-wastewater-testing-methamphetamine-increase

    So the US pharmaceutical industry wants to operate with the same kind of freedom as illegal drug traffickers. They wouldn't sell as much - the Pharmaceutical Benefits scheme sell to patients at less than purchase
    cost, on the basis that curing patients is cheaper than treating them indefinitely, so we buy more than we would if individual patients had to
    pay the full cost - but they might be able to extort higher prices from patients who could afford to pay.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Bill Sloman on Fri Mar 21 02:15:31 2025
    On 3/20/2025 10:33 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
    I may be being unfair here, but the latest claim amongst American who
    like Trump's tariffs is that the Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits
    Scheme is a non-tariff barrier to trade. They may be the lunatics
    involved here rather than Trump himself.

    "Free trade" as practiced in the US for the past ~40 years was largely
    only one kind of free trade, outsourcing of manufacturing and
    low-skilled labor. There's been little free trade in white collar
    services like doctors (who get paid 2 to 3x what their counterparts in
    Western Europe get paid) or medicines, and copyright terms and patent protections only got more stringent.

    That is to say the white collar world made out and there was a side
    benefit that blue collar ire at wage stagnation and high prices has been politically useful. As it is of course the fault of transgender
    athletes, DEI, and too much woke messaging in movies and TV.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to bitrex on Fri Mar 21 21:14:48 2025
    On 21/03/2025 5:15 pm, bitrex wrote:
    On 3/20/2025 10:33 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
    I may be being unfair here, but the latest claim amongst American who
    like Trump's tariffs is that the Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits
    Scheme is a non-tariff barrier to trade. They may be the lunatics
    involved here rather than Trump himself.

    "Free trade" as practiced in the US for the past ~40 years was largely
    only one kind of free trade, outsourcing of manufacturing and
    low-skilled labor. There's been little free trade in white collar
    services like doctors (who get paid 2 to 3x what their counterparts in Western Europe get paid) or medicines, and copyright terms and patent protections only got more stringent.

    That is to say the white collar world made out and there was a side
    benefit that blue collar ire at wage stagnation and high prices has been politically useful. As it is of course the fault of transgender
    athletes, DEI, and too much woke messaging in movies and TV.

    There's a book about it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spirit_Level_(book)

    It's just a demonstration that grossly high levels of income inequality
    are socially damaging. The authors compare American states with one
    another, and advanced industrial countries (including America). Levels
    of income inequality are lower in European countries.

    The differences between American states show the same pattern as the
    (bigger) differences between countries.

    Trump does exploit the differences and has done well out of them. He's
    the last person who would try to reduce them.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Klaus Kragelund@21:1/5 to Bill Sloman on Mon Mar 24 01:21:24 2025
    On 20-03-2025 15:33, Bill Sloman wrote:
    I may be being unfair here, but the latest claim amongst American who
    like Trump's tariffs is that the Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits
    Scheme is a non-tariff barrier to trade. They may be the lunatics
    involved here rather than Trump himself.

    The Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme buys medicines which have
    been approved as effective and cost-effective, and sells them on cheaply
    to patients whose doctors have prescribed the medicines.

    It's no kind of barrier to trade - anybody who wants a particular drug
    can buy it directly from the manufacturer at a price they negotiate with manufacturer.

    They won't have the buying power of the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme,
    which buys in much larger volumes, and employs people who know exactly
    what they are buying, and who the alternative suppliers are.

    When I read the New Yorker I see ads for medicines aimed directly at consumers. I don't see them in periodicals aimed only at the Australian market, not because they are illegal, but because not enough people in Australia would act on such advertisements.

    We all know that if a drug is safe and effective we will be able to get
    more cheaply through our doctors and the Australian Pharmaceutical
    Benefits Scheme.

    There is a lively market for illegal drugs in Australia - tests on the outflow from our sewage systems demonstrate that a lot cocaine and other illegal drugs do get consumed here,

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/mar/12/australia-drug-use- wastewater-testing-methamphetamine-increase

    So the US pharmaceutical industry wants to operate with the same kind of freedom as illegal drug traffickers. They wouldn't sell as much - the Pharmaceutical Benefits scheme sell to patients at less than purchase
    cost, on the basis that curing patients is cheaper than treating them indefinitely, so we buy more than we would if individual patients had to
    pay the full cost - but they might be able to extort higher prices from patients who could afford to pay.


    I was in the US last week for a conference.

    The mood has really shifted to the worse. Lot's of talk on the radio on
    people going bankrupt, how to survive the coming years, DOGE violating constitutional rights.

    Before going, I had to check my text messages and online social
    profiles, to be sure I had not made a comment about Trump. (many
    examples of people send to prison for just not linking Trump)

    More homeless people than I have seen before (I have been going each
    year for 15 years).

    I hope it gets better soon and this is just a temporary situation.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gerhard Hoffmann@21:1/5 to All on Mon Mar 24 09:34:47 2025
    Am 24.03.25 um 01:21 schrieb Klaus Kragelund:

    I was in the US last week for a conference.

    The mood has really shifted to the worse. Lot's of talk on the radio on people going bankrupt, how to survive the coming years, DOGE violating constitutional rights.

    Before going, I had to check my text messages and online social
    profiles, to be sure I had not made a comment about Trump. (many
    examples of people send to prison for just not linking Trump)

    A friend of mine wanted to attend the launch of a payload in FLA
    that we had worked on for years. He canceled that a few days ago
    because of that newfangled DOGE shit. You cannot let Trump's
    ankle biters check / copy your company laptop.

    I remember I didn't even get the soldering procedure for contemporary
    Virtex FPGAs, let alone the chips, for stuff to end up on the ISS,
    so I had to use prehistoric ones.

    Needless to say, there won't be Xilinx in future projects here and it
    won't be FLA but Kourou for takeoff.
    It does not pay in the long run to piss off people.

    Gerhard

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to All on Mon Mar 24 07:16:29 2025
    On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 09:34:47 +0100, Gerhard Hoffmann <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    Am 24.03.25 um 01:21 schrieb Klaus Kragelund:

    I was in the US last week for a conference.

    The mood has really shifted to the worse. Lot's of talk on the radio on
    people going bankrupt, how to survive the coming years, DOGE violating
    constitutional rights.

    Before going, I had to check my text messages and online social
    profiles, to be sure I had not made a comment about Trump. (many
    examples of people send to prison for just not linking Trump)

    A friend of mine wanted to attend the launch of a payload in FLA
    that we had worked on for years. He canceled that a few days ago
    because of that newfangled DOGE shit. You cannot let Trump's
    ankle biters check / copy your company laptop.

    I remember I didn't even get the soldering procedure for contemporary
    Virtex FPGAs, let alone the chips, for stuff to end up on the ISS,
    so I had to use prehistoric ones.

    Needless to say, there won't be Xilinx in future projects here and it
    won't be FLA but Kourou for takeoff.

    Take a look at Efinix.

    It does not pay in the long run to piss off people.

    Think so?


    Gerhard

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to [email protected] on Mon Mar 24 07:21:35 2025
    On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 01:21:24 +0100, Klaus Kragelund
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 20-03-2025 15:33, Bill Sloman wrote:
    I may be being unfair here, but the latest claim amongst American who
    like Trump's tariffs is that the Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits
    Scheme is a non-tariff barrier to trade. They may be the lunatics
    involved here rather than Trump himself.

    The Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme buys medicines which have
    been approved as effective and cost-effective, and sells them on cheaply
    to patients whose doctors have prescribed the medicines.

    It's no kind of barrier to trade - anybody who wants a particular drug
    can buy it directly from the manufacturer at a price they negotiate with
    manufacturer.

    They won't have the buying power of the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme,
    which buys in much larger volumes, and employs people who know exactly
    what they are buying, and who the alternative suppliers are.

    When I read the New Yorker I see ads for medicines aimed directly at
    consumers. I don't see them in periodicals aimed only at the Australian
    market, not because they are illegal, but because not enough people in
    Australia would act on such advertisements.

    We all know that if a drug is safe and effective we will be able to get
    more cheaply through our doctors and the Australian Pharmaceutical
    Benefits Scheme.

    There is a lively market for illegal drugs in Australia - tests on the
    outflow from our sewage systems demonstrate that a lot cocaine and other
    illegal drugs do get consumed here,

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/mar/12/australia-drug-use-
    wastewater-testing-methamphetamine-increase

    So the US pharmaceutical industry wants to operate with the same kind of
    freedom as illegal drug traffickers. They wouldn't sell as much - the
    Pharmaceutical Benefits scheme sell to patients at less than purchase
    cost, on the basis that curing patients is cheaper than treating them
    indefinitely, so we buy more than we would if individual patients had to
    pay the full cost - but they might be able to extort higher prices from
    patients who could afford to pay.


    I was in the US last week for a conference.

    The mood has really shifted to the worse. Lot's of talk on the radio on >people going bankrupt, how to survive the coming years, DOGE violating >constitutional rights.

    Before going, I had to check my text messages and online social
    profiles, to be sure I had not made a comment about Trump. (many
    examples of people send to prison for just not linking Trump)

    More homeless people than I have seen before (I have been going each
    year for 15 years).

    Where was that?


    I hope it gets better soon and this is just a temporary situation.

    There are about 11 million illegal immigrants in the USA now. Some
    have found housing - competing with everyone else - and some have not.

    Illegal drugs don't help. Controlling the border will help both
    problems.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Klaus Kragelund on Mon Mar 24 08:40:46 2025
    On 3/23/2025 5:21 PM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
    More homeless people than I have seen before (I have been going each year for 15 years).

    Homelessness is a persistent problem. It's always amusing to see how
    these "geniuses" never seem to take on REAL problems -- just simple "technology" problems! As if no one else would EVER have thought of
    making an electric car or a portable phone.

    Sadly, they are problems that easily tug on heart strings. So,
    can be exploited to encourage folks who want to help to subsidize
    such efforts. IME, the only ones who benefit, there, are the
    ones leading those efforts ("Well, of COURSE I have to be paid
    for my time -- look at how much time this is taking!!")

    [We have a group, here, that claims to provide "support" for homeless
    youth (high school age). But, the support is limited to just handing
    out cash that has been donated by others "trying to help". There's
    no counseling. No skills in budgeting. Lifestyle mentoring. etc.
    Just take in donations, skim a bit off the top (15%?) and hand the
    money over to "needy youth". I'm sure the *30* NON-homeless people
    who manage to gain employment doing this are happy for the effort, though!]

    I hope it gets better soon and this is just a temporary situation.

    All systems need periodic resets. Even if only to force a "rethink".

    We had a "citizen's initiative" to propose a "half cent" (per dollar
    spent) increase in our city sales tax. To be imposed for a period of
    ten years. To support our *zoo* (!!).

    This passed.

    Of course, the zoo is going crazy spending all this windfall. No one
    has considered what they will do when the tax expires... will the animals suddenly not need to eat? Will the newly constructed buildings not need repairs? Will the extra staff suddenly become redundant?

    Recently, an attempt was made to impose yet another "half cent" sales
    tax increase -- to pay for "public safety"; ambulances, fire equipment, HOMELESS SHELTERS, etc.

    Gee, folks decided this was too much! "Find some other way to do those things."

    I guess no one thought of the cumulative effect of all these "half cents" (there have been several) and prioritized them...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Mon Mar 24 11:02:22 2025
    On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 08:40:46 -0700, Don Y
    <[email protected]d> wrote:

    On 3/23/2025 5:21 PM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
    More homeless people than I have seen before (I have been going each year for
    15 years).

    Homelessness is a persistent problem.

    It's a persistent, gigabuck industry.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Klaus Kragelund@21:1/5 to john larkin on Tue Mar 25 01:46:12 2025
    On 24-03-2025 15:21, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 01:21:24 +0100, Klaus Kragelund
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 20-03-2025 15:33, Bill Sloman wrote:
    I may be being unfair here, but the latest claim amongst American who
    like Trump's tariffs is that the Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits
    Scheme is a non-tariff barrier to trade. They may be the lunatics
    involved here rather than Trump himself.

    The Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme buys medicines which have
    been approved as effective and cost-effective, and sells them on cheaply >>> to patients whose doctors have prescribed the medicines.

    It's no kind of barrier to trade - anybody who wants a particular drug
    can buy it directly from the manufacturer at a price they negotiate with >>> manufacturer.

    They won't have the buying power of the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme,
    which buys in much larger volumes, and employs people who know exactly
    what they are buying, and who the alternative suppliers are.

    When I read the New Yorker I see ads for medicines aimed directly at
    consumers. I don't see them in periodicals aimed only at the Australian
    market, not because they are illegal, but because not enough people in
    Australia would act on such advertisements.

    We all know that if a drug is safe and effective we will be able to get
    more cheaply through our doctors and the Australian Pharmaceutical
    Benefits Scheme.

    There is a lively market for illegal drugs in Australia - tests on the
    outflow from our sewage systems demonstrate that a lot cocaine and other >>> illegal drugs do get consumed here,

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/mar/12/australia-drug-use-
    wastewater-testing-methamphetamine-increase

    So the US pharmaceutical industry wants to operate with the same kind of >>> freedom as illegal drug traffickers. They wouldn't sell as much - the
    Pharmaceutical Benefits scheme sell to patients at less than purchase
    cost, on the basis that curing patients is cheaper than treating them
    indefinitely, so we buy more than we would if individual patients had to >>> pay the full cost - but they might be able to extort higher prices from
    patients who could afford to pay.


    I was in the US last week for a conference.

    The mood has really shifted to the worse. Lot's of talk on the radio on
    people going bankrupt, how to survive the coming years, DOGE violating
    constitutional rights.

    Before going, I had to check my text messages and online social
    profiles, to be sure I had not made a comment about Trump. (many
    examples of people send to prison for just not linking Trump)

    More homeless people than I have seen before (I have been going each
    year for 15 years).

    Where was that?


    Atlanta, Georgia

    Apec-conf.org


    I hope it gets better soon and this is just a temporary situation.

    There are about 11 million illegal immigrants in the USA now. Some
    have found housing - competing with everyone else - and some have not.

    Illegal drugs don't help. Controlling the border will help both
    problems.

    Most of the peope I saw that was sleeping on the street was black
    people, many with obvious mental problems

    One family a collegaue of mine talked to, the husband had a tripple
    bypass.They had to sell everything they had to pay hospital bills. They
    were staying at a hotel, with no plan for what to do when the money runs
    out.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Tue Mar 25 14:08:44 2025
    On 25/03/2025 1:21 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 01:21:24 +0100, Klaus Kragelund
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 20-03-2025 15:33, Bill Sloman wrote:
    I may be being unfair here, but the latest claim amongst American who
    like Trump's tariffs is that the Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits
    Scheme is a non-tariff barrier to trade. They may be the lunatics
    involved here rather than Trump himself.

    The Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme buys medicines which have
    been approved as effective and cost-effective, and sells them on cheaply >>> to patients whose doctors have prescribed the medicines.

    It's no kind of barrier to trade - anybody who wants a particular drug
    can buy it directly from the manufacturer at a price they negotiate with >>> manufacturer.

    They won't have the buying power of the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme,
    which buys in much larger volumes, and employs people who know exactly
    what they are buying, and who the alternative suppliers are.

    When I read the New Yorker I see ads for medicines aimed directly at
    consumers. I don't see them in periodicals aimed only at the Australian
    market, not because they are illegal, but because not enough people in
    Australia would act on such advertisements.

    We all know that if a drug is safe and effective we will be able to get
    more cheaply through our doctors and the Australian Pharmaceutical
    Benefits Scheme.

    There is a lively market for illegal drugs in Australia - tests on the
    outflow from our sewage systems demonstrate that a lot cocaine and other >>> illegal drugs do get consumed here,

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/mar/12/australia-drug-use-
    wastewater-testing-methamphetamine-increase

    So the US pharmaceutical industry wants to operate with the same kind of >>> freedom as illegal drug traffickers. They wouldn't sell as much - the
    Pharmaceutical Benefits scheme sell to patients at less than purchase
    cost, on the basis that curing patients is cheaper than treating them
    indefinitely, so we buy more than we would if individual patients had to >>> pay the full cost - but they might be able to extort higher prices from
    patients who could afford to pay.


    I was in the US last week for a conference.

    The mood has really shifted to the worse. Lot's of talk on the radio on
    people going bankrupt, how to survive the coming years, DOGE violating
    constitutional rights.

    Before going, I had to check my text messages and online social
    profiles, to be sure I had not made a comment about Trump. (many
    examples of people send to prison for just not linking Trump)

    More homeless people than I have seen before (I have been going each
    year for 15 years).

    Where was that?


    I hope it gets better soon and this is just a temporary situation.

    There are about 11 million illegal immigrants in the USA now.

    There always have been - not perhaps 11 million, but plenty.

    Some have found housing - competing with everyone else - and some have not.

    So what. Most of them seem to have found work - of a sort.

    Illegal drugs don't help. Controlling the border will help both
    problems.

    Australia has no land borders and we do pretty well at keeping out
    illegal immigrants. Analysis of our waste water reveals tons of illegal
    drugs. You can have excellent control of human migration and still have
    a problem with illegal drugs.

    Trump pretends to be obsessed with illegal immigrants and illegal drugs
    because it plays well with gullible suckers like you.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Tue Mar 25 14:26:31 2025
    On 25/03/2025 5:02 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 08:40:46 -0700, Don Y
    <[email protected]d> wrote:

    On 3/23/2025 5:21 PM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
    More homeless people than I have seen before (I have been going each year for
    15 years).

    Homelessness is a persistent problem.

    It's a persistent, gigabuck industry.

    Providing places for people to live is a major industry.

    Looking after people who can't afford housing is a problem all societies tackle, some quite a lot more effectively than others.

    Governments that call themselves socialists tend make more of a fuss
    about getting the homeless off the streets. Western European socialists governments tend to have enough tax revenue to be able to do an
    effective job.

    Sweden is unique in getting much the same outcomes for children of
    single parent families as you see for children whose parents have stayed together, but most Western European countries do better than the USA.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to john larkin on Tue Mar 25 10:48:36 2025
    On 3/24/2025 2:02 PM, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 08:40:46 -0700, Don Y
    <[email protected]d> wrote:

    On 3/23/2025 5:21 PM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
    More homeless people than I have seen before (I have been going each year for
    15 years).

    Homelessness is a persistent problem.

    It's a persistent, gigabuck industry.


    So just build houses for the homeless and then they won't be homeless
    anymore, depriving said "gigabuck industry" of their revenue. Of course, conservatives aren't a fan of that idea, either.

    No actual ideas, just complaints, lists of enemies, and conspiracy theories.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to bitrex on Tue Mar 25 08:04:02 2025
    On Tue, 25 Mar 2025 10:48:36 -0400, bitrex <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 3/24/2025 2:02 PM, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 08:40:46 -0700, Don Y
    <[email protected]d> wrote:

    On 3/23/2025 5:21 PM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
    More homeless people than I have seen before (I have been going each year for
    15 years).

    Homelessness is a persistent problem.

    It's a persistent, gigabuck industry.


    So just build houses for the homeless and then they won't be homeless >anymore, depriving said "gigabuck industry" of their revenue. Of course, >conservatives aren't a fan of that idea, either.

    No actual ideas, just complaints, lists of enemies, and conspiracy theories.

    There are a billion people who would move into the USA, or into
    Dallas, if we offer them free housing and food and medical care.

    And there are thousands of consultants and providers and NGOs who will
    manage the money.

    Basic conservation principles are not conspiracy theories.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Don Y on Tue Mar 25 12:12:52 2025
    On 3/25/2025 11:24 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 3/25/2025 7:48 AM, bitrex wrote:
    So just build houses for the homeless and then they won't be homeless
    anymore,

    No.  There will *still* be homeless people, regardless of the level of support that you provide.

    Sure, there are no perfect solutions. So what.

    Unless you resort to "institutionalizing" people "for their own good".

    Many of he homeless we're discussing are drug-addicted, and lots of
    Americans seem to want that for the seriously drug addicted. They seem
    to believe that drug addicts who aren't "trying to get better" need to
    be forced to.

    They seem to be under the misapprehension that recovery from serious
    drug addiction is a matter of like, finding the right therapist vs.
    fighting one of the most complex and poorly understood conditions in
    modern medicine, with relapse rates worse than the worst cancers even
    with the best care money can buy.

    Unfortunately the outcome of many severe disease processes without
    reliable cures is death. But the ones who are destined to recover have a
    better shot at it with stable housing.

    But yes, institutionalization and forced treatment with non-evidence
    based medicine is doomed to fail and the amount of money that can be
    wasted there for little result (and taxpayer outrage at it) far exceeds
    the little result that could be obtained by cheaper means.

    Housing needs to be *affordable* and sited in locations that folks
    will be comfortable living (and MAKING a living).  No one wants to
    "invest" in places where the only folks who will want to habitate
    can't afford to provide sufficient profit for the investor -- esp
    if there are other places where they can make a bigger, quicker buck!

    There's a trickle-down theory of housing that if you just build new
    market-rate the prices on older stock will come down, there's a certain
    logic to it but proponents sometimes use Tokyo Japan as an example of a
    city that did it "right."

    Japan is a terrible example of doing something "right" they had the
    better part of two decades of economic stagnation and a whole lost
    generation to help keep their housing costs low, it wasn't just urban
    policy.

    Meanwhile the crisis is likely to only get more pressing in the US as
    housing and particularly rental inventory remains low, and use of AI
    tools to screen renters is bringing the same "fairness" to the rental
    market as resume panopticons brought to the IT hiring business.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Mar 26 03:08:38 2025
    On 26/03/2025 2:24 am, Don Y wrote:
    On 3/25/2025 7:48 AM, bitrex wrote:
    So just build houses for the homeless and then they won't be homeless
    anymore,

    No.  There will *still* be homeless people, regardless of the level of support that you provide.

    Unless you resort to "institutionalizing" people "for their own good".

    Housing needs to be *affordable* and sited in locations that folks
    will be comfortable living (and MAKING a living).  No one wants to
    "invest" in places where the only folks who will want to habitate
    can't afford to provide sufficient profit for the investor -- esp
    if there are other places where they can make a bigger, quicker buck!

    A lot of "charity" produces little "result".  We've canvased lots
    of them with an eye towards our estate planning.  If you hold
    their feet to the fire and ask for documented results of their
    past efforts, most will timidly admit that they haven't met
    their own stated goals!

    ["How many of these battered women have you managed to give new
    lives through your efforts?"  "None, really.  They all end up
    back in the same sorts of situations that led them to coming here".

    The psychological problems that lead some women to latch onto men who go
    in for coercive control aren't easy to treat, but it's still worth
    offering refuges for women (and their kids) who have got stuck with particularly revolting partners.

    It's the same kind of problem as alcohol and drug dependence and problem gambling. The fact that he problems are hard to deal with is not a
    reason to ignore them.

    "Then, why would I want to gift you anything if your 'results' are
    only temporary?  What is the 'lifetime maintenance cost' for these
    people that you CLAIM to be serving?  Aren't you obviously doing
    something WRONG??"]

    Whatever they are doing is less wrong than trying to ignore the problem.
    It's not as effective as we would like it to be, but it seems to be
    better than nothing.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to bitrex on Tue Mar 25 08:24:01 2025
    On 3/25/2025 7:48 AM, bitrex wrote:
    So just build houses for the homeless and then they won't be homeless anymore,

    No. There will *still* be homeless people, regardless of the level of
    support that you provide.

    Unless you resort to "institutionalizing" people "for their own good".

    Housing needs to be *affordable* and sited in locations that folks
    will be comfortable living (and MAKING a living). No one wants to
    "invest" in places where the only folks who will want to habitate
    can't afford to provide sufficient profit for the investor -- esp
    if there are other places where they can make a bigger, quicker buck!

    A lot of "charity" produces little "result". We've canvased lots
    of them with an eye towards our estate planning. If you hold
    their feet to the fire and ask for documented results of their
    past efforts, most will timidly admit that they haven't met
    their own stated goals!

    ["How many of these battered women have you managed to give new
    lives through your efforts?" "None, really. They all end up
    back in the same sorts of situations that led them to coming here"
    "Then, why would I want to gift you anything if your 'results' are
    only temporary? What is the 'lifetime maintenance cost' for these
    people that you CLAIM to be serving? Aren't you obviously doing
    something WRONG??"]

    depriving said "gigabuck industry" of their revenue. Of course, conservatives aren't a fan of that idea, either.

    No actual ideas, just complaints, lists of enemies, and conspiracy theories.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Wed Mar 26 02:54:07 2025
    On 26/03/2025 2:04 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 25 Mar 2025 10:48:36 -0400, bitrex <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 3/24/2025 2:02 PM, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 08:40:46 -0700, Don Y
    <[email protected]d> wrote:

    On 3/23/2025 5:21 PM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
    More homeless people than I have seen before (I have been going each year for
    15 years).

    Homelessness is a persistent problem.

    It's a persistent, gigabuck industry.


    So just build houses for the homeless and then they won't be homeless
    anymore, depriving said "gigabuck industry" of their revenue. Of course,
    conservatives aren't a fan of that idea, either.

    No actual ideas, just complaints, lists of enemies, and conspiracy theories.

    There are a billion people who would move into the USA, or into
    Dallas, if we offer them free housing and food and medical care.

    Western Europe offers better social security than the USA, including
    socialised medicine, and while they do get a lot of migrants, they don't
    get billions of them.

    Fairly obviously, what's on offer isn't free housing, food and medical
    care, even if they do manage the undeserving poor more generously than
    the US seems willing to.

    And there are thousands of consultants and providers and NGOs who will
    manage the money.

    It's job - much like any other.

    Basic conservation principles are not conspiracy theories.

    But posting absurd claims about the poor is much the same kind of misinformation as the junk peddled by conspiracy theory enthusiasts.

    It make the people who peddle it feel good, if they are too dumb to
    notice that it is meaningless twaddle.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to bitrex on Tue Mar 25 10:20:41 2025
    On 3/25/2025 9:12 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 3/25/2025 11:24 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 3/25/2025 7:48 AM, bitrex wrote:
    So just build houses for the homeless and then they won't be homeless anymore,

    No.  There will *still* be homeless people, regardless of the level of
    support that you provide.

    Sure, there are no perfect solutions. So what.

    *Expecting* it to be solvable by "mere handwaving" is naive.
    Like the example I gave of the organization, here, that hands
    *checks* to homeless youth.

    All THAT does is enable them to engage in the same behaviors
    that have kept them from "settling down" and overcoming their
    current issues.

    E.g., allowing them to claim the need for "emergency relief"
    (a special "exception" that is put in place to handle those
    "emergency situations") to buy food -- when they have spent
    their regular stipend check on something *frivolous* doesn't
    teach them to avoid the wasteful spending; you've bailed them
    out, again!

    Unless you resort to "institutionalizing" people "for their own good".

    Many of he homeless we're discussing are drug-addicted, and lots of Americans seem to want that for the seriously drug addicted. They seem to believe that drug addicts who aren't "trying to get better" need to be forced to.

    Many also suffer from mental illnesses. Neither "problem" has quick,
    easy cures. Throwing staff and money at it isn't likely going to
    achieve any positive results -- except for the exceptional cases
    that manage to pull their shit together AND leave the lifestyle
    that had *put* them in that situation.

    Going back to "the same old crowd" (of friends) is likely going to put
    them back where they started (on their failed trajectory).

    They seem to be under the misapprehension that recovery from serious drug addiction is a matter of like, finding the right therapist vs. fighting one of
    the most complex and poorly understood conditions in modern medicine, with relapse rates worse than the worst cancers even with the best care money can buy.

    No, but folks who don't *commit* to recovery sure as shit aren't going
    to STUMBLE into sobriety!

    Give every "drunk" Antabuse and you can eliminate alcoholism, right?
    (I.e., if the "drunk" isn't committed to getting sober, Antabuse
    is just going to piss him off)

    Unfortunately the outcome of many severe disease processes without reliable cures is death. But the ones who are destined to recover have a better shot at
    it with stable housing.

    Healthy foods, access to good medical care, good support/social networks,
    etc.

    Housing, by itself, doesn't do much.

    But yes, institutionalization and forced treatment with non-evidence based medicine is doomed to fail and the amount of money that can be wasted there for
    little result (and taxpayer outrage at it) far exceeds the little result that could be obtained by cheaper means.

    Problems only get solved when you are *committed* to solving them.
    If (like the homeless youth issue, above) all you are doing is
    paying lip service to the problem, you are effectively just
    rationalizing the NEED for your paycheck.

    I give my time to organizations that, I see, produce results. As
    *I* am involved, I can bear witness to those results -- instead of
    being duped/misled by glossy annual reports.

    [This subject -- charities -- often comes up at dinner parties; friends/friends-of-friends wondering where to put their donations.
    The first thing I tell them is to volunteer *at* the organization
    so they can *see* how their monies will be spent. "Gee, they just
    bought another building! How many buildings does it take to
    HAND OUT STIPEND CHECKS???"]

    Housing needs to be *affordable* and sited in locations that folks
    will be comfortable living (and MAKING a living).  No one wants to
    "invest" in places where the only folks who will want to habitate
    can't afford to provide sufficient profit for the investor -- esp
    if there are other places where they can make a bigger, quicker buck!

    There's a trickle-down theory of housing that if you just build new market-rate
    the prices on older stock will come down, there's a certain logic to it but proponents sometimes use Tokyo Japan as an example of a city that did it "right."

    Prices only come down when there is a "surplus" (for some definition of "surplus") of units. We have seen a significant up-tick in home prices
    as the influx of Californians (who are used to paying ridiculously
    high prices for tiny plots of land) puts a bias in what buyers are
    willing to pay for a given property.

    [A friend put $200K into a small home he purchased for $500K. And,
    thought nothing of it! Really? What was "missing" that needed a
    $200K upgrade? You've gained no extra floor space. You have the
    same types of appliances (if you consider them part of the property).
    The yard is the same. So...?]

    Japan is a terrible example of doing something "right" they had the better part
    of two decades of economic stagnation and a whole lost generation to help keep
    their housing costs low, it wasn't just urban policy.

    Japanese homes (according to a neighbor who lived there for many
    years and married a japanese woman) are considerably different
    than US homes.

    [And, THEY have to worry about Godjira!!]

    Meanwhile the crisis is likely to only get more pressing in the US as housing and particularly rental inventory remains low, and use of AI tools to screen renters is bringing the same "fairness" to the rental market as resume panopticons brought to the IT hiring business.

    There is nothing that inherently limits the ratio of properties to
    residents. Most of my friends have at least two homes, choosing
    to live here in the Winter months and elsewhere in our Summers.

    If they can afford the outlay, upkeep and taxes, what's to stop
    them from making additional purchases?

    [I would find multiple homes maddening. Imagine NOT being able
    to find "something". In the back of your mind, you'd always be
    wondering if it's at (one of) the other house(s). If you stop
    searching before you find it -- based on that assumption -- then
    imagine BEING at that other house and discovering IT'S NOT THERE!
    I.e., you gave up your initial search, prematurely! And, the
    possibility of this happening would always leave you "uncertain"
    as to your best strategy...]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Don Y on Tue Mar 25 15:03:38 2025
    On 3/25/2025 1:20 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 3/25/2025 9:12 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 3/25/2025 11:24 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 3/25/2025 7:48 AM, bitrex wrote:
    So just build houses for the homeless and then they won't be
    homeless anymore,

    No.  There will *still* be homeless people, regardless of the level of
    support that you provide.

    Sure, there are no perfect solutions. So what.

    *Expecting* it to be solvable by "mere handwaving" is naive.
    Like the example I gave of the organization, here, that hands
    *checks* to homeless youth.

    All THAT does is enable them to engage in the same behaviors
    that have kept them from "settling down" and overcoming their
    current issues.

    Treating adults like naughty grade school children and trying to modify
    their behaviors using the methods parents (sometimes with some success,
    at least at that stage of development) use to modify the behaviors of
    their naughty schoolchildren tends to be ineffective, what a lot of them
    needed was tough love at age 8 rather than the capricious and
    dysfunctional parents they actually got.

    But the state's usual fashion of tough love tends to get to most of
    these citizens far too late.

    My folks were more dysfunctional and capricious than many but not as bad
    as some and I had some other more positive influences, so I got a
    fighting chance. Other members of "the wrong crowd" I knew back in the
    day didn't get as fighting a chance and I visit their graves sometimes.

    Many also suffer from mental illnesses.  Neither "problem" has quick,
    easy cures.  Throwing staff and money at it isn't likely going to
    achieve any positive results -- except for the exceptional cases
    that manage to pull their shit together AND leave the lifestyle
    that had *put* them in that situation.

    Going back to "the same old crowd" (of friends) is likely going to put
    them back where they started (on their failed trajectory).


    Yes, the "exceptional cases" are indeed who you're working for, but I
    don't think they're quite as uncommon as you seem to be making them out
    to be.

    Part of the point of "throwing stuff and money" is because you have to
    show someone love and trust who's likely never experienced it _at all_
    before you show them tough love or it just seems like more punishment,
    not a particularly effective method of enticing anyone back into society.

    Or just don't do anything but have noble ideals and they'll find the
    money from the copper in the walls of the development near you and maybe
    find housing in your shed or under the bridge in your neighborhood, up
    to you.

    Healthy foods, access to good medical care, good support/social networks, etc.

    Housing, by itself, doesn't do much.

    Even people with housing often don't have reliable access to those
    things, much less without it!

    You are sho'nuff fucked if you don't have secure housing in America.
    Difficult to even enumerate all the additional ways a person is fucked
    without it, on top of whatever mental health and/or addiction issue
    they're suffering from.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to bitrex on Tue Mar 25 13:18:54 2025
    On 3/25/2025 12:03 PM, bitrex wrote:
    So just build houses for the homeless and then they won't be homeless >>>>> anymore,

    No.  There will *still* be homeless people, regardless of the level of >>>> support that you provide.

    Sure, there are no perfect solutions. So what.

    *Expecting* it to be solvable by "mere handwaving" is naive.
    Like the example I gave of the organization, here, that hands
    *checks* to homeless youth.

    All THAT does is enable them to engage in the same behaviors
    that have kept them from "settling down" and overcoming their
    current issues.

    Treating adults like naughty grade school children and trying to modify their behaviors using the methods parents (sometimes with some success, at least at that stage of development) use to modify the behaviors of their naughty schoolchildren tends to be ineffective, what a lot of them needed was tough love at age 8 rather than the capricious and dysfunctional parents they actually got.

    That ignores the problem. You have to understand the problem
    before you can propose/develop a solution for it. Otherwise,
    you are just throwing money and effort at it and "hoping for the best"

    But the state's usual fashion of tough love tends to get to most of these citizens far too late.

    The State doesn't have the patience to deal with these problems.
    Why should the state have to fix the results of poor parenting,
    poor environment, etc.?

    If it *should*, then THAT has to become a priority. Otherwise,
    The State does what is most expedient (which may not be best nor
    cheapest -- politicians tend not to worry about details...)

    My folks were more dysfunctional and capricious than many but not as bad as some and I had some other more positive influences, so I got a fighting chance.
    Other members of "the wrong crowd" I knew back in the day didn't get as fighting a chance and I visit their graves sometimes.

    Many also suffer from mental illnesses.  Neither "problem" has quick,
    easy cures.  Throwing staff and money at it isn't likely going to
    achieve any positive results -- except for the exceptional cases
    that manage to pull their shit together AND leave the lifestyle
    that had *put* them in that situation.

    Going back to "the same old crowd" (of friends) is likely going to put
    them back where they started (on their failed trajectory).

    Yes, the "exceptional cases" are indeed who you're working for, but I don't think they're quite as uncommon as you seem to be making them out to be.

    Everyone wants their donations (which are manifestations of working hours
    out of their earlier lives) to be used effectively. It's rare that someone will willingly make a large donation (time or money) in the HOPE of some positive result -- absent any real guarantees!

    Part of the point of "throwing stuff and money" is because you have to show someone love and trust who's likely never experienced it _at all_ before you show them tough love or it just seems like more punishment, not a particularly
    effective method of enticing anyone back into society.

    We have a significant homelessness problem. In part, because our
    climate is more tolerant of living out-of-doors (I knew a guy who
    lived in a TENT in his mom's back yard -- she forbid him in the
    house; long story). Part because we have a fair bit of "free"
    services (e.g., one can ride public transportation "for free"
    instead of relying on someone to transport you -- undoubtedly for
    a "cut" of your take -- to your "panhandling intersection").
    And, because the police tend to be a bit more tolerant than in
    other locales.

    If someone sets up a tent on the "wild" side of our back fence,
    should I just "feel sorry for him"? Run over and give him some cash?
    Invite him to dinner? Will ANY of these things actually make a
    difference -- or, just encourage others to come by for their share?

    These problems are larger than "individuals". And, tend to require
    more expertise than "well meaning groups" have available.

    [I looked into working with a group that builds tiny homes -- REALLY
    tiny -- for homeless folks. A local church had offered to allow
    them to be sited on the church's land. A business was offering
    raw materials. But, the folks behind the effort were clueless as
    to how to do carpentry, what local ordinances required for sanitation,
    drainage issues, etc. But, they were eager to have the local TV
    crew on hand for their meeting! (Nothing came of their effort.
    Not even *one* "shelter"!)]

    Or just don't do anything but have noble ideals and they'll find the money from
    the copper in the walls of the development near you and maybe find housing in your shed or under the bridge in your neighborhood, up to you.

    Healthy foods, access to good medical care, good support/social networks,
    etc.

    Housing, by itself, doesn't do much.

    Even people with housing often don't have reliable access to those things, much
    less without it!

    So, which problems do you address first? Given that there is limited
    resources (time/money) to apply to any of them.

    I spend most of my volunteer hours trying to educate disadvantaged
    kids (STEAM, literacy). The results will likely not be evident in
    the short term. But, I have to think that an education helps one
    avoid some of the pitfalls that they might face, otherwise.

    How much of this falls on THEIR shoulders?

    You are sho'nuff fucked if you don't have secure housing in America. Difficult
    to even enumerate all the additional ways a person is fucked without it, on top
    of whatever mental health and/or addiction issue they're suffering from.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Mar 26 14:01:33 2025
    On 26/03/2025 4:20 am, Don Y wrote:
    On 3/25/2025 9:12 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 3/25/2025 11:24 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 3/25/2025 7:48 AM, bitrex wrote:
    So just build houses for the homeless and then they won't be
    homeless anymore,

    No.  There will *still* be homeless people, regardless of the level of
    support that you provide.

    Sure, there are no perfect solutions. So what.

    *Expecting* it to be solvable by "mere handwaving" is naive.
    Like the example I gave of the organization, here, that hands
    *checks* to homeless youth.

    Except that they probably didn't do only that. You saw that as the only
    thing that they did, and that put you off looking harder.

    All THAT does is enable them to engage in the same behaviors
    that have kept them from "settling down" and overcoming their
    current issues.

    If that was all they did.

    E.g., allowing them to claim the need for "emergency relief"
    (a special "exception" that is put in place to handle those
    "emergency situations") to buy food -- when they have spent
    their regular stipend check on something *frivolous* doesn't
    teach them to avoid the wasteful spending; you've bailed them
    out, again!

    Few aid agencies are that naive. You want an excuse not to give them
    money, so you ignore a few crucila details.

    Unless you resort to "institutionalizing" people "for their own good".

    Many of he homeless we're discussing are drug-addicted, and lots of
    Americans seem to want that for the seriously drug addicted. They seem
    to believe that drug addicts who aren't "trying to get better" need to
    be forced to.

    Many also suffer from mental illnesses.  Neither "problem" has quick,
    easy cures.  Throwing staff and money at it isn't likely going to
    achieve any positive results -- except for the exceptional cases
    that manage to pull their shit together AND leave the lifestyle
    that had *put* them in that situation.

    Throwing staff an money at it probably will produce some positive
    results - more of them than not doing anything.

    Going back to "the same old crowd" (of friends) is likely going to put
    them back where they started (on their failed trajectory).

    Everybody knows that, but trying to isolate people from their
    acquaintances does generate a lot of resistance. Humans are social
    animals, and weaning people away from their regular acquaintances is
    painful. I've moved between countries several times during my life -
    Australia to the UK to the Netherlands and back to Australia - and it
    isn't easy.
    They seem to be under the misapprehension that recovery from serious
    drug addiction is a matter of like, finding the right therapist vs.
    fighting one of the most complex and poorly understood conditions in
    modern medicine, with relapse rates worse than the worst cancers even
    with the best care money can buy.

    No, but folks who don't *commit* to recovery sure as shit aren't going
    to STUMBLE into sobriety!

    There are degrees of commitment, and the kind of mentors who want
    fanatical commitment to their ideology are best avoided.

    Give every "drunk" Antabuse and you can eliminate alcoholism, right?

    They've got to keep on taking it.

    (I.e., if the "drunk" isn't committed to getting sober, Antabuse
    is just going to piss him off).

    There are lots of additional ways it can piss them off. It doesn't seem
    to be all that helpful in practice.

    Unfortunately the outcome of many severe disease processes without
    reliable cures is death. But the ones who are destined to recover have
    a better shot at it with stable housing.

    Healthy foods, access to good medical care, good support/social networks, etc.

    Housing, by itself, doesn't do much.

    But it tends to be a necessary condition for all the other support.

    But yes, institutionalization and forced treatment with non-evidence
    based medicine is doomed to fail and the amount of money that can be
    wasted there for little result (and taxpayer outrage at it) far
    exceeds the little result that could be obtained by cheaper means.

    Problems only get solved when you are *committed* to solving them.

    But there are degrees of commitment, and too much commitment can be
    unhelpful - more so if some authority figure is insisting on it.

    If (like the homeless youth issue, above) all you are doing is
    paying lip service to the problem, you are effectively just
    rationalizing the NEED for your paycheck.

    That's your perception of what was going on, which gave you a great
    excuse for not giving them money.

    I give my time to organizations that, I see, produce results.  As
    *I* am involved, I can bear witness to those results -- instead of
    being duped/misled by glossy annual reports.

    But you aren't all that skilled in assessing the results.

    [This subject -- charities -- often comes up at dinner parties; friends/friends-of-friends wondering where to put their donations.
    The first thing I tell them is to volunteer *at* the organization
    so they can *see* how their monies will be spent.  "Gee, they just
    bought another building!  How many buildings does it take to
    HAND OUT STIPEND CHECKS???"]

    One dinner party I attended as graduate student had a rather
    conservative graduate student sounding off like that. My female
    companion - who is now a professor of sociology - had been stuck with
    doing preliminary interviews for the Melbourne Poverty Survey - and she
    briefly pointed that he had got a lot of his facts wrong. He looked like
    an idiot, but it didn't change his beliefs.

    Housing needs to be *affordable* and sited in locations that folks
    will be comfortable living (and MAKING a living).  No one wants to
    "invest" in places where the only folks who will want to habitate
    can't afford to provide sufficient profit for the investor -- esp
    if there are other places where they can make a bigger, quicker buck!

    There's a trickle-down theory of housing that if you just build new
    market-rate the prices on older stock will come down, there's a
    certain logic to it but proponents sometimes use Tokyo Japan as an
    example of a city that did it "right."

    Prices only come down when there is a "surplus" (for some definition of "surplus") of units.  We have seen a significant up-tick in home prices
    as the influx of Californians (who are used to paying ridiculously
    high prices for tiny plots of land) puts a bias in what buyers are
    willing to pay for a given property.

    [A friend put $200K into a small home he purchased for $500K.  And,
    thought nothing of it!  Really?  What was "missing" that needed a
    $200K upgrade?  You've gained no extra floor space.  You have the
    same types of appliances (if you consider them part of the property).
    The yard is the same.  So...?]

    And you will probably never find out. My wife and I spent money on all
    three of the houses we bought as we moved from Brighton UK to Cambridge
    UK to Nijmegen in the Netherlands. We had different needs from the
    people who have previously owned the houses, and enough money to
    reorganise the houses in ways that suited us.

    Japan is a terrible example of doing something "right" they had the
    better part of two decades of economic stagnation and a whole lost
    generation to help keep their housing costs low, it wasn't just urban
    policy.

    Japanese homes (according to a neighbor who lived there for many
    years and married a Japanese woman) are considerably different
    from US homes.

    Mostly, they are lot smaller.

    <snip>

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Mar 26 14:19:09 2025
    On 26/03/2025 7:18 am, Don Y wrote:
    On 3/25/2025 12:03 PM, bitrex wrote:
    So just build houses for the homeless and then they won't be
    homeless anymore,

    No.  There will *still* be homeless people, regardless of the level of >>>>> support that you provide.

    Sure, there are no perfect solutions. So what.

    *Expecting* it to be solvable by "mere handwaving" is naive.
    Like the example I gave of the organization, here, that hands
    *checks* to homeless youth.

    All THAT does is enable them to engage in the same behaviors
    that have kept them from "settling down" and overcoming their
    current issues.

    Treating adults like naughty grade school children and trying to
    modify their behaviors using the methods parents (sometimes with some
    success, at least at that stage of development) use to modify the
    behaviors of their naughty schoolchildren tends to be ineffective,
    what a lot of them needed was tough love at age 8 rather than the
    capricious and dysfunctional parents they actually got.

    That ignores the problem.  You have to understand the problem
    before you can propose/develop a solution for it.  Otherwise,
    you are just throwing money and effort at it and "hoping for the best"

    But the state's usual fashion of tough love tends to get to most of
    these citizens far too late.

    The State doesn't have the patience to deal with these problems.
    Why should the state have to fix the results of poor parenting,
    poor environment, etc.?

    If it *should*, then THAT has to become a priority.  Otherwise,
    The State does what is most expedient (which may not be best nor
    cheapest -- politicians tend not to worry about details...)

    My folks were more dysfunctional and capricious than many but not as
    bad as some and I had some other more positive influences, so I got a
    fighting chance. Other members of "the wrong crowd" I knew back in the
    day didn't get as fighting a chance and I visit their graves sometimes.

    Many also suffer from mental illnesses.  Neither "problem" has quick,
    easy cures.  Throwing staff and money at it isn't likely going to
    achieve any positive results -- except for the exceptional cases
    that manage to pull their shit together AND leave the lifestyle
    that had *put* them in that situation.

    Going back to "the same old crowd" (of friends) is likely going to put
    them back where they started (on their failed trajectory).

    Yes, the "exceptional cases" are indeed who you're working for, but I
    don't think they're quite as uncommon as you seem to be making them
    out to be.

    Everyone wants their donations (which are manifestations of working hours
    out of their earlier lives) to be used effectively.  It's rare that someone will willingly make a large donation (time or money) in the HOPE of some positive result -- absent any real guarantees!

    Dealing with other people's problems doesn't offer the option of
    guaranteed results. Everybody is different (even identical twins).

    Part of the point of "throwing stuff and money" is because you have to
    show someone love and trust who's likely never experienced it _at all_
    before you show them tough love or it just seems like more punishment,
    not a particularly effective method of enticing anyone back into society.

    We have a significant homelessness problem.  In part, because our
    climate is more tolerant of living out-of-doors (I knew a guy who
    lived in a TENT in his mom's back yard -- she forbid him in the
    house; long story).  Part because we have a fair bit of "free"
    services (e.g., one can ride public transportation "for free"
    instead of relying on someone to transport you -- undoubtedly for
    a "cut" of your take -- to your "panhandling intersection").
    And, because the police tend to be a bit more tolerant than in
    other locales.

    If someone sets up a tent on the "wild" side of our back fence,
    should I just "feel sorry for him"?  Run over and give him some cash?
    Invite him to dinner?  Will ANY of these things actually make a
    difference -- or, just encourage others to come by for their share?

    It might be wise to find out enough about him to get into a state where
    you can see what might work for him. Different individuals have
    different problems and different capabilities. They also pose different
    kinds of threats. Finding out a bit about them, as individuals, is a
    wise precaution, as well as the charitable approach.

    These problems are larger than "individuals".  And, tend to require
    more expertise than "well meaning groups" have available.

    The problem is always the individual. Lumping people together and trying
    to apply a one-size-fits-all solution is a reliable route to disaster.
    <snip>

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

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  • From Gerhard Hoffmann@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 28 00:14:28 2025
    Am 24.03.25 um 15:16 schrieb john larkin:

    Take a look at Efinix.

    I'm just looking at this here:

    < https://www.digikey.de/de/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879
    >

    Gerhard

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 27 19:28:53 2025
    On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 00:14:28 +0100, Gerhard Hoffmann <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    Am 24.03.25 um 15:16 schrieb john larkin:

    Take a look at Efinix.

    I'm just looking at this here:

    < >https://www.digikey.de/de/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879
    >

    Gerhard

    Digikey doesn't want to show me (or sell me) anything. OK, deal.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Chris Jones@21:1/5 to john larkin on Fri Mar 28 20:48:34 2025
    On 28/03/2025 1:28 pm, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 00:14:28 +0100, Gerhard Hoffmann <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    Am 24.03.25 um 15:16 schrieb john larkin:

    Take a look at Efinix.

    I'm just looking at this here:

    <
    https://www.digikey.de/de/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879
    >

    Gerhard

    Digikey doesn't want to show me (or sell me) anything. OK, deal.


    Maybe the US site will work:

    https://www.digikey.com.au/en/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Fri Mar 28 10:40:53 2025
    On 3/28/25 03:28, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 00:14:28 +0100, Gerhard Hoffmann <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    Am 24.03.25 um 15:16 schrieb john larkin:

    Take a look at Efinix.

    I'm just looking at this here:

    <
    https://www.digikey.de/de/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879
    >

    Gerhard

    Digikey doesn't want to show me (or sell me) anything. OK, deal.


    It's an FPGA in a 324-ball BGA. A simple search on type number
    brings it up easily enough.

    Jeroen Belleman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Mar 28 02:55:50 2025
    On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 10:40:53 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 3/28/25 03:28, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 00:14:28 +0100, Gerhard Hoffmann <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    Am 24.03.25 um 15:16 schrieb john larkin:

    Take a look at Efinix.

    I'm just looking at this here:

    <
    https://www.digikey.de/de/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879
    >

    Gerhard

    Digikey doesn't want to show me (or sell me) anything. OK, deal.


    It's an FPGA in a 324-ball BGA. A simple search on type number
    brings it up easily enough.

    Jeroen Belleman

    Digikey.de refuses to believe that I'm a human.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gerhard Hoffmann@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 28 11:09:19 2025
    Am 28.03.25 um 10:48 schrieb Chris Jones:
    On 28/03/2025 1:28 pm, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 00:14:28 +0100, Gerhard Hoffmann <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    Am 24.03.25 um 15:16 schrieb john larkin:

    Take a look at Efinix.

    I'm just looking at this here:

    <
    https://www.digikey.de/de/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879
         >

    Gerhard

    Digikey doesn't want to show me (or sell me) anything. OK, deal.


    Maybe the US site will work:

    https://www.digikey.com.au/en/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879

    Funny. in .de the price is €21.94, in the US it's $36.59 for one.
    Tariffs at work already??

    Gerhard

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  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Fri Mar 28 11:09:26 2025
    On 3/28/25 10:55, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 10:40:53 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 3/28/25 03:28, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 00:14:28 +0100, Gerhard Hoffmann <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    Am 24.03.25 um 15:16 schrieb john larkin:

    Take a look at Efinix.

    I'm just looking at this here:

    <
    https://www.digikey.de/de/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879
    >

    Gerhard

    Digikey doesn't want to show me (or sell me) anything. OK, deal.


    It's an FPGA in a 324-ball BGA. A simple search on type number
    brings it up easily enough.

    Jeroen Belleman

    Digikey.de refuses to believe that I'm a human.


    The wanted me to switch of my ad-blocker. Sorry, but no.

    Regarding the subject line, it's eerily quiet here. The
    DoD top brass must be furious, no?

    Jeroen Belleman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Fri Mar 28 23:42:47 2025
    On 28/03/2025 8:55 pm, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 10:40:53 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 3/28/25 03:28, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 00:14:28 +0100, Gerhard Hoffmann <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    Am 24.03.25 um 15:16 schrieb john larkin:

    Take a look at Efinix.

    I'm just looking at this here:

    <
    https://www.digikey.de/de/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879
    >

    Gerhard

    Digikey doesn't want to show me (or sell me) anything. OK, deal.


    It's an FPGA in a 324-ball BGA. A simple search on type number
    brings it up easily enough.

    Jeroen Belleman

    Digikey.de refuses to believe that I'm a human.

    It may have higher standards than you are used to. And why search the
    German web-site? I can actually read German - I had to do "science
    German" as part of my undergraduate science degree, but American
    universities don't seem to have that kind of requirement.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Mar 28 09:41:27 2025
    On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 20:48:34 +1100, Chris Jones
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 28/03/2025 1:28 pm, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 00:14:28 +0100, Gerhard Hoffmann <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    Am 24.03.25 um 15:16 schrieb john larkin:

    Take a look at Efinix.

    I'm just looking at this here:

    <
    https://www.digikey.de/de/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879
    >

    Gerhard

    Digikey doesn't want to show me (or sell me) anything. OK, deal.


    Maybe the US site will work:

    https://www.digikey.com.au/en/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879

    I'd be wary about using an FPGA from a newbie company that has one
    product. I wonder what their tool set is like.

    Efinix is another fabless FPGA newcomer, and we are using theirs. At
    $10 each, we can guy a giant backup stock. My kids say that the
    software tools look like they were written in a garage, and they mean
    that as a compliment.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 28 13:11:46 2025
    On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 02:55:50 -0700, john larkin <jlArbor.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 10:40:53 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 3/28/25 03:28, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 00:14:28 +0100, Gerhard Hoffmann <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    Am 24.03.25 um 15:16 schrieb john larkin:

    Take a look at Efinix.

    I'm just looking at this here:

    <
    https://www.digikey.de/de/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879
    >

    Gerhard

    Digikey doesn't want to show me (or sell me) anything. OK, deal.


    It's an FPGA in a 324-ball BGA. A simple search on type number
    brings it up easily enough.

    Jeroen Belleman

    Digikey.de refuses to believe that I'm a human.

    I didn't have any problem using Bing, but I did have to pass an
    are-you-human test consisting of holding the cursor down on the test
    shape until success, a few seconds.

    Joe

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to Joe Gwinn on Fri Mar 28 19:26:05 2025
    On 3/28/25 18:11, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 02:55:50 -0700, john larkin <jlArbor.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 10:40:53 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 3/28/25 03:28, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 00:14:28 +0100, Gerhard Hoffmann <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    Am 24.03.25 um 15:16 schrieb john larkin:

    Take a look at Efinix.

    I'm just looking at this here:

    <
    https://www.digikey.de/de/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879
    >

    Gerhard

    Digikey doesn't want to show me (or sell me) anything. OK, deal.


    It's an FPGA in a 324-ball BGA. A simple search on type number
    brings it up easily enough.

    Jeroen Belleman

    Digikey.de refuses to believe that I'm a human.

    I didn't have any problem using Bing, but I did have to pass an
    are-you-human test consisting of holding the cursor down on the test
    shape until success, a few seconds.

    Joe

    Maybe it has a robot doing it for you.

    Jeroen Belleman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jasen Betts@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Mar 28 22:51:36 2025
    On 2025-03-25, Don Y <[email protected]d> wrote:

    If someone sets up a tent on the "wild" side of our back fence,
    should I just "feel sorry for him"? Run over and give him some cash?
    Invite him to dinner? Will ANY of these things actually make a
    difference -- or, just encourage others to come by for their share?

    You've got a new neighbor, act apropriately.

    --
    Jasen.
    🇺🇦 Слава Україні

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Jasen Betts on Fri Mar 28 16:06:41 2025
    On 3/28/2025 3:51 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2025-03-25, Don Y <[email protected]d> wrote:

    If someone sets up a tent on the "wild" side of our back fence,
    should I just "feel sorry for him"? Run over and give him some cash?
    Invite him to dinner? Will ANY of these things actually make a
    difference -- or, just encourage others to come by for their share?

    You've got a new neighbor, act apropriately.

    But *is* he a "neighbor"? Or, just someone who happens to
    be sleeping nearby?

    "Neighbors" make a commitment to the neighborhood and
    adopt the practices and customs of THEIR neighbors.
    "A guy in a tent" makes no such investment.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Mar 28 18:33:19 2025
    On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 19:26:05 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 3/28/25 18:11, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 02:55:50 -0700, john larkin <jlArbor.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 10:40:53 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 3/28/25 03:28, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 00:14:28 +0100, Gerhard Hoffmann <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote:

    Am 24.03.25 um 15:16 schrieb john larkin:

    Take a look at Efinix.

    I'm just looking at this here:

    <
    https://www.digikey.de/de/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879
    >

    Gerhard

    Digikey doesn't want to show me (or sell me) anything. OK, deal.


    It's an FPGA in a 324-ball BGA. A simple search on type number
    brings it up easily enough.

    Jeroen Belleman

    Digikey.de refuses to believe that I'm a human.

    I didn't have any problem using Bing, but I did have to pass an
    are-you-human test consisting of holding the cursor down on the test
    shape until success, a few seconds.

    Joe

    Maybe it has a robot doing it for you.

    Well, yes. It's a robot trying to tell if I'm a kindred robot.

    Joe - beep!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From wmartin@21:1/5 to john larkin on Sat Mar 29 13:54:53 2025
    On 3/28/25 02:55, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 10:40:53 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 3/28/25 03:28, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 00:14:28 +0100, Gerhard Hoffmann <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    Am 24.03.25 um 15:16 schrieb john larkin:

    Take a look at Efinix.

    I'm just looking at this here:

    <
    https://www.digikey.de/de/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879
    >

    Gerhard

    Digikey doesn't want to show me (or sell me) anything. OK, deal.


    It's an FPGA in a 324-ball BGA. A simple search on type number
    brings it up easily enough.

    Jeroen Belleman

    Digikey.de refuses to believe that I'm a human.

    must be all those monkey jokes...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Mon Apr 14 13:11:31 2025
    In article <67e2d5f0$0$5280$[email protected]>,
    bitrex <[email protected]> wrote:
    Many of he homeless we're discussing are drug-addicted, and lots of
    Americans seem to want that for the seriously drug addicted. They seem
    to believe that drug addicts who aren't "trying to get better" need to
    be forced to.

    Let's start at the outset. They get addicted because they
    1. fled their homeland being bombed
    2. get in a destitute financial situation
    3. are mentally unstable being in a sect
    4. have post war syndrome, having killed too many innocent children.
    5. be legally insane, but not be treated and detained properly
    ...


    Groetjes Albert
    --
    Temu exploits Christians: (Disclaimer, only 10 apostles)
    Last Supper Acrylic Suncatcher - 15Cm Round Stained Glass- Style Wall
    Art For Home, Office And Garden Decor - Perfect For Windows, Bars,
    And Gifts For Friends Family And Colleagues.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Mon Apr 14 07:51:30 2025
    On Mon, 14 Apr 2025 13:11:31 +0200, [email protected] wrote:

    In article <67e2d5f0$0$5280$[email protected]>,
    bitrex <[email protected]> wrote:
    Many of he homeless we're discussing are drug-addicted, and lots of >>Americans seem to want that for the seriously drug addicted. They seem
    to believe that drug addicts who aren't "trying to get better" need to
    be forced to.

    Let's start at the outset. They get addicted because they
    1. fled their homeland being bombed
    2. get in a destitute financial situation
    3. are mentally unstable being in a sect
    4. have post war syndrome, having killed too many innocent children.
    5. be legally insane, but not be treated and detained properly

    6. Sampled an easily available drug that was designed to be intensely pleasurable and wildly addictive.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joerg@21:1/5 to Klaus Kragelund on Mon Apr 14 16:27:36 2025
    On 3/24/25 5:46 PM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
    On 24-03-2025 15:21, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 01:21:24 +0100, Klaus Kragelund
    <[email protected]> wrote:


    [...]

    I hope it gets better soon and this is just a temporary situation.

    There are about 11 million illegal immigrants in the USA now. Some
    have found housing - competing with everyone else - and some have not.

    Illegal drugs don't help. Controlling the border will help both
    problems.

    Most of the peope I saw that was sleeping on the street was black
    people, many with obvious mental problems

    One family a collegaue of mine talked to, the husband had a tripple bypass.They had to sell everything they had to pay hospital bills. They
    were staying at a hotel, with no plan for what to do when the money runs
    out.


    I am living in the US for almost 30 years now. Most of the time
    self-employed so no cadillac-style corporate health plan. It has never
    been a problem to obtain health insurance. It just became more expensive
    when Obamacare started.

    A good friend of mine in a similar situation (engineer but not
    corporate) had a serious heart attack while we were on a cycling trip.
    Slim, trim and sporty, I couldn't believe it. I called, the ambulance
    arrived two minutes later, he was transported to a hospital and from
    there to another because the required procedure was a bit complicated.
    His share of the bill was miniscule.

    A person with a decent income (engineers et cetera) has enough money to
    pay for health insurance for their family. I personally know some who
    instead chose to buy a sports car or whatever and take a gamble on their health. Well, this is America, so you have that choice. Of course, like
    any gamble making a poor choice can backfire spectacularly (and has). I
    can tell a lot of stories about the latter, and none of them were due to
    a supposedly poor health system. It was all about choices.

    Someone with lower income receives huge subsidies and enjoys almost
    zero-cost health insurance. They can also file for charity care at the
    hospital which, given the income is truly low, is generally granted.

    Poor people are on Medicaid where everything is free.

    You won't read that in the usual sensationalist press but that's how
    health care in America really is. Personally I like it better here than
    in Germany where I lived before. Except for the dental insurance which
    is pretty much a joke in the US.

    --
    Regards, Joerg

    http://www.analogconsultants.com/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Klaus Kragelund on Mon Apr 14 19:14:09 2025
    On 3/24/2025 5:46 PM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
    Most of the peope I saw that was sleeping on the street was black people, many
    with obvious mental problems

    To be fair, in Georgia, you will likely find more blacks than, for example, mexicans. Both tend to occupy the lower socioeconomic rungs so are
    more likely to be "homeless".

    There is no real solution to this, other than incarceration (which is a
    REALLY expensive way to "house" people).

    What typically happens is "enforcement" will move "squatters" (for want
    of a better term) from one area... which just means they will have to
    move to ANOTHER area.

    Until "enforcement" moves them from THAT area.

    Each "enforcement action" invariably discovers some number who are in
    violation of OTHER laws (most often possessing drug paraphenalia) so
    those folks are temporarily removed from this situation -- at an even HIGHER cost than simply incarcerating them (as they now must be tried, etc.)

    There is a homeless population that "migrates" from southern arizona
    to northern arizona with the changing of the seasons; it is brutal to
    be unhoused in southern arizona in the summer months -- but much more
    tolerable at the higher elevations to the north. Similarly, too
    cold to remain in those elevations as winter comes so the shift back to
    the southern part of the state.

    If you don't have "ties" to a neighborhood, the day or two it may take
    to hitch-hike the ~100 mile trip (perhaps a week on foot?) is a small
    coast to pay for a season.

    One family a collegaue of mine talked to, the husband had a tripple bypass.They
    had to sell everything they had to pay hospital bills. They were staying at a hotel, with no plan for what to do when the money runs out.

    Health care in the US is horribly inconsistent.

    The first rule is: if you have no insurance, you will be charged
    "uninsured" rates -- which are often *multiples* higher than the
    insured rates!

    Getting insurance means setting aside a significant portion of your
    wages to pay for it -- even if your employer subsidizes your
    coverage (which leaves you with the choice(s) THEY made).

    And, if you are unhealthy/high risk, your premiums will reflect that
    (gee, isn't that "fair"?).

    [A colleague was paying $25K/year for his family back in 1990. He
    considered that outrageous. OTOH, he knew he would need his heart
    valves replaced, again, in another few years. And, never hesitated
    to ask for the BEST care for his family (e.g., plastic surgeon to
    treat a cut on kid's face "so they won't have a visible scar")]

    Many try to save money by opting for HMO's -- where the provider
    controls your access to care bureaucratically instead of based on
    the recommendations of YOUR doctor. This often results in delayed
    care, extra conflict and an overall dissatisfaction with the whole
    system. "Surprise! Your doctor is no longer contracted with OUR
    system... find a new one!"

    Of course, as most folks are passive participants when it comes to
    their health care (i.e., ignoring the obvious practices that they
    could take on to improve their own health), and, as the field is
    full of jargon that leaves folks in the dark (unless you are very
    proactive seeking explanations AND have providers who are patient
    and not intimidated by your assertiveness).

    None of this is consolation to folks who are just stuck with
    "bad genes", etc.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to Joerg on Tue Apr 15 12:01:52 2025
    On 2025-04-14 19:27, Joerg wrote:
    On 3/24/25 5:46 PM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
    On 24-03-2025 15:21, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 01:21:24 +0100, Klaus Kragelund
    <[email protected]> wrote:


    [...]

    I hope it gets better soon and this is just a temporary situation.

    There are about 11 million illegal immigrants in the USA now. Some
    have found housing - competing with everyone else - and some have not.

    Illegal drugs don't help. Controlling the border will help both
    problems.

    Most of the peope I saw that was sleeping on the street was black
    people, many with obvious mental problems

    One family a collegaue of mine talked to, the husband had a tripple
    bypass.They had to sell everything they had to pay hospital bills.
    They were staying at a hotel, with no plan for what to do when the
    money runs out.


    I am living in the US for almost 30 years now. Most of the time
    self-employed so no cadillac-style corporate health plan. It has never
    been a problem to obtain health insurance. It just became more expensive
    when Obamacare started.

    A good friend of mine in a similar situation (engineer but not
    corporate) had a serious heart attack while we were on a cycling trip.
    Slim, trim and sporty, I couldn't believe it. I called, the ambulance
    arrived two minutes later, he was transported to a hospital and from
    there to another because the required procedure was a bit complicated.
    His share of the bill was miniscule.

    A person with a decent income (engineers et cetera) has enough money to
    pay for health insurance for their family. I personally know some who
    instead chose to buy a sports car or whatever and take a gamble on their health. Well, this is America, so you have that choice. Of course, like
    any gamble making a poor choice can backfire spectacularly (and has). I
    can tell a lot of stories about the latter, and none of them were due to
    a supposedly poor health system. It was all about choices.

    Someone with lower income receives huge subsidies and enjoys almost
    zero-cost health insurance. They can also file for charity care at the hospital which, given the income is truly low, is generally granted.

    Poor people are on Medicaid where everything is free.

    You won't read that in the usual sensationalist press but that's how
    health care in America really is. Personally I like it better here than
    in Germany where I lived before. Except for the dental insurance which
    is pretty much a joke in the US.

    What you said, except that I've been here for 42 years. I'm super
    grateful not to be under Canada's socialized medicine anymore. My
    wife's favorite cousin in Vanouver had to wait SIX MONTHS for thyroid
    cancer surgery. Fortunately she survived, little thanks to the Canadian
    health system.

    For dental, you can get a very low cost plan from Aetna that doesn't pay
    for anything, but entitles you to the insurance rate from your
    dentist--about a 50% discount. It's $60 per year iirc.

    The reason is that the insurance companies demand a big discount from
    what the dentist's 'rates' are, so dentists don't dare charge you what
    they charge the companies. Fortunately, the free market being what it
    is, there's an app for that. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs
    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    http://hobbs-eo.com

    in

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joerg@21:1/5 to Phil Hobbs on Thu Apr 17 15:12:47 2025
    On 4/15/25 9:01 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:

    [...]

    What you said, except that I've been here for 42 years.  I'm super
    grateful not to be under Canada's socialized medicine anymore.  My
    wife's favorite cousin in Vanouver had to wait SIX MONTHS for thyroid
    cancer surgery.  Fortunately she survived, little thanks to the Canadian health system.


    Yep, similar in the UK and other places :-(

    I worked at a med devices company for a few years and when I was at the
    Mayo Clinic in Rochester MN I heard a lot of Canadian accents. Hoose,
    aboot, and so on :-)

    Chats in the evenings revealed the usual. Wealthier Canadians carried a
    Mayo Care Card. The wife of one guy put it bluntly: "My hubby here would
    likely be dead without it". Almost made me choke up. He and I clinked a
    pint of IPA to that.

    A judge on the Canadian Supreme Court famously wrote "Access to a
    waiting list is not access to health care".


    For dental, you can get a very low cost plan from Aetna that doesn't pay
    for anything, but entitles you to the insurance rate from your
    dentist--about a 50% discount.  It's $60 per year iirc.

    The reason is that the insurance companies demand a big discount from
    what the dentist's 'rates' are, so dentists don't dare charge you what
    they charge the companies. ...


    Yet they do :-(

    I just needed two crowns. They cost $1100 each. Should have been $300
    per insurance list but the dentist tacks on a lot of stuff such as lab
    fees, prep, cor fee, and yada yada yada. They all do so yuo can't really
    do anything about it.

    Still, like you said it reduces the cost a little. A friend without
    dental "insurance" paif $1500 per crown.


    ... Fortunately, the free market being what it
    is, there's an app for that. ;)


    Surprisingly, even the government health plan for older people here in
    the US (Medicare) is better than in other countries. I am very involved
    in that with a relative and I am amazed what they cover.

    Most media constantly razz the US for bad healthcare. IMO that's largely baloney.

    Same for social security. Having lived in several countries I can
    compare and the US system wins, big time.

    --
    Regards, Joerg

    http://www.analogconsultants.com/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Thu Apr 17 15:40:17 2025
    On Thu, 17 Apr 2025 15:12:47 -0700, Joerg <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On 4/15/25 9:01 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:

    [...]

    What you said, except that I've been here for 42 years.� I'm super
    grateful not to be under Canada's socialized medicine anymore.� My
    wife's favorite cousin in Vanouver had to wait SIX MONTHS for thyroid
    cancer surgery.� Fortunately she survived, little thanks to the Canadian
    health system.


    Yep, similar in the UK and other places :-(

    I worked at a med devices company for a few years and when I was at the
    Mayo Clinic in Rochester MN I heard a lot of Canadian accents. Hoose,
    aboot, and so on :-)

    Chats in the evenings revealed the usual. Wealthier Canadians carried a
    Mayo Care Card. The wife of one guy put it bluntly: "My hubby here would >likely be dead without it". Almost made me choke up. He and I clinked a
    pint of IPA to that.

    A judge on the Canadian Supreme Court famously wrote "Access to a
    waiting list is not access to health care".


    For dental, you can get a very low cost plan from Aetna that doesn't pay
    for anything, but entitles you to the insurance rate from your
    dentist--about a 50% discount.� It's $60 per year iirc.

    The reason is that the insurance companies demand a big discount from
    what the dentist's 'rates' are, so dentists don't dare charge you what
    they charge the companies. ...


    Yet they do :-(

    I just needed two crowns. They cost $1100 each. Should have been $300
    per insurance list but the dentist tacks on a lot of stuff such as lab
    fees, prep, cor fee, and yada yada yada. They all do so yuo can't really
    do anything about it.

    Still, like you said it reduces the cost a little. A friend without
    dental "insurance" paif $1500 per crown.


    ... Fortunately, the free market being what it
    is, there's an app for that. ;)


    Surprisingly, even the government health plan for older people here in
    the US (Medicare) is better than in other countries. I am very involved
    in that with a relative and I am amazed what they cover.

    Most media constantly razz the US for bad healthcare. IMO that's largely >baloney.

    Same for social security. Having lived in several countries I can
    compare and the US system wins, big time.

    I have Kaiser, and now Kaiser+Medicaire. K is great, a true HMO, with
    a flat fee per month to keep you healthy. My company pays for
    employees.

    If you don't like your primary MD, you tell them so and they send
    resumes to let you pick another one. My current MD wears miniskirts
    and calls me John and I call her Sam.

    I just refilled some prescriptions online. They will be mailed to me.
    Total cost = zero.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From ehsjr@21:1/5 to Joerg on Fri Apr 18 18:28:09 2025
    On 4/17/2025 6:12 PM, Joerg wrote:
    On 4/15/25 9:01 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:

    [...]

    What you said, except that I've been here for 42 years.  I'm super
    grateful not to be under Canada's socialized medicine anymore.  My
    wife's favorite cousin in Vanouver had to wait SIX MONTHS for thyroid
    cancer surgery.  Fortunately she survived, little thanks to the
    Canadian health system.


    Yep, similar in the UK and other places :-(

    I worked at a med devices company for a few years and when I was at the
    Mayo Clinic in Rochester MN I heard a lot of Canadian accents. Hoose,
    aboot, and so on :-)

    Chats in the evenings revealed the usual. Wealthier Canadians carried a
    Mayo Care Card. The wife of one guy put it bluntly: "My hubby here would likely be dead without it". Almost made me choke up. He and I clinked a
    pint of IPA to that.

    A judge on the Canadian Supreme Court famously wrote "Access to a
    waiting list is not access to health care".


    For dental, you can get a very low cost plan from Aetna that doesn't
    pay for anything, but entitles you to the insurance rate from your
    dentist--about a 50% discount.  It's $60 per year iirc.

    The reason is that the insurance companies demand a big discount from
    what the dentist's 'rates' are, so dentists don't dare charge you what
    they charge the companies. ...


    Yet they do :-(

    I just needed two crowns. They cost $1100 each. Should have been $300
    per insurance list but the dentist tacks on a lot of stuff such as lab
    fees, prep, cor fee, and yada yada yada. They all do so yuo can't really
    do anything about it.

    Still, like you said it reduces the cost a little. A friend without
    dental "insurance" paif $1500 per crown.


                         ... Fortunately, the free market being what it
    is, there's an app for that. ;)


    Surprisingly, even the government health plan for older people here in
    the US (Medicare) is better than in other countries. I am very involved
    in that with a relative and I am amazed what they cover.

    Most media constantly razz the US for bad healthcare. IMO that's largely baloney.

    Same for social security. Having lived in several countries I can
    compare and the US system wins, big time.


    +1
    Ed

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joerg@21:1/5 to john larkin on Sun Apr 20 08:34:59 2025
    On 4/17/25 3:40 PM, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 17 Apr 2025 15:12:47 -0700, Joerg <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On 4/15/25 9:01 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:

    [...]

    What you said, except that I've been here for 42 years.  I'm super
    grateful not to be under Canada's socialized medicine anymore.  My
    wife's favorite cousin in Vanouver had to wait SIX MONTHS for thyroid
    cancer surgery.  Fortunately she survived, little thanks to the Canadian >>> health system.


    Yep, similar in the UK and other places :-(

    I worked at a med devices company for a few years and when I was at the
    Mayo Clinic in Rochester MN I heard a lot of Canadian accents. Hoose,
    aboot, and so on :-)

    Chats in the evenings revealed the usual. Wealthier Canadians carried a
    Mayo Care Card. The wife of one guy put it bluntly: "My hubby here would
    likely be dead without it". Almost made me choke up. He and I clinked a
    pint of IPA to that.

    A judge on the Canadian Supreme Court famously wrote "Access to a
    waiting list is not access to health care".


    For dental, you can get a very low cost plan from Aetna that doesn't pay >>> for anything, but entitles you to the insurance rate from your
    dentist--about a 50% discount.  It's $60 per year iirc.

    The reason is that the insurance companies demand a big discount from
    what the dentist's 'rates' are, so dentists don't dare charge you what
    they charge the companies. ...


    Yet they do :-(

    I just needed two crowns. They cost $1100 each. Should have been $300
    per insurance list but the dentist tacks on a lot of stuff such as lab
    fees, prep, cor fee, and yada yada yada. They all do so yuo can't really
    do anything about it.

    Still, like you said it reduces the cost a little. A friend without
    dental "insurance" paif $1500 per crown.


    ... Fortunately, the free market being what it
    is, there's an app for that. ;)


    Surprisingly, even the government health plan for older people here in
    the US (Medicare) is better than in other countries. I am very involved
    in that with a relative and I am amazed what they cover.

    Most media constantly razz the US for bad healthcare. IMO that's largely
    baloney.

    Same for social security. Having lived in several countries I can
    compare and the US system wins, big time.

    I have Kaiser, and now Kaiser+Medicaire. K is great, a true HMO, with
    a flat fee per month to keep you healthy. My company pays for
    employees.

    If you don't like your primary MD, you tell them so and they send
    resumes to let you pick another one. My current MD wears miniskirts
    and calls me John and I call her Sam.


    Hey, you're married :-)


    I just refilled some prescriptions online. They will be mailed to me.
    Total cost = zero.


    Yep. One downside with Kaiser is that it can take a while until they
    take some ailment seriously enough. You have to be the squeaky wheel or
    it has had to become really bad, like not able to walk anymore. OTOH
    they insist on preventative care which is good. Cancer screening and stuff.

    --
    Regards, Joerg

    http://www.analogconsultants.com/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Sun Apr 20 10:39:53 2025
    On Sun, 20 Apr 2025 08:34:59 -0700, Joerg <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On 4/17/25 3:40 PM, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 17 Apr 2025 15:12:47 -0700, Joerg <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On 4/15/25 9:01 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:

    [...]

    What you said, except that I've been here for 42 years.� I'm super
    grateful not to be under Canada's socialized medicine anymore.� My
    wife's favorite cousin in Vanouver had to wait SIX MONTHS for thyroid
    cancer surgery.� Fortunately she survived, little thanks to the Canadian >>>> health system.


    Yep, similar in the UK and other places :-(

    I worked at a med devices company for a few years and when I was at the
    Mayo Clinic in Rochester MN I heard a lot of Canadian accents. Hoose,
    aboot, and so on :-)

    Chats in the evenings revealed the usual. Wealthier Canadians carried a
    Mayo Care Card. The wife of one guy put it bluntly: "My hubby here would >>> likely be dead without it". Almost made me choke up. He and I clinked a
    pint of IPA to that.

    A judge on the Canadian Supreme Court famously wrote "Access to a
    waiting list is not access to health care".


    For dental, you can get a very low cost plan from Aetna that doesn't pay >>>> for anything, but entitles you to the insurance rate from your
    dentist--about a 50% discount.� It's $60 per year iirc.

    The reason is that the insurance companies demand a big discount from
    what the dentist's 'rates' are, so dentists don't dare charge you what >>>> they charge the companies. ...


    Yet they do :-(

    I just needed two crowns. They cost $1100 each. Should have been $300
    per insurance list but the dentist tacks on a lot of stuff such as lab
    fees, prep, cor fee, and yada yada yada. They all do so yuo can't really >>> do anything about it.

    Still, like you said it reduces the cost a little. A friend without
    dental "insurance" paif $1500 per crown.


    ... Fortunately, the free market being what it
    is, there's an app for that. ;)


    Surprisingly, even the government health plan for older people here in
    the US (Medicare) is better than in other countries. I am very involved
    in that with a relative and I am amazed what they cover.

    Most media constantly razz the US for bad healthcare. IMO that's largely >>> baloney.

    Same for social security. Having lived in several countries I can
    compare and the US system wins, big time.

    I have Kaiser, and now Kaiser+Medicaire. K is great, a true HMO, with
    a flat fee per month to keep you healthy. My company pays for
    employees.

    If you don't like your primary MD, you tell them so and they send
    resumes to let you pick another one. My current MD wears miniskirts
    and calls me John and I call her Sam.


    Hey, you're married :-)

    Mo came with me a couple of times when I saw Sam. No problem.



    I just refilled some prescriptions online. They will be mailed to me.
    Total cost = zero.


    Yep. One downside with Kaiser is that it can take a while until they
    take some ailment seriously enough. You have to be the squeaky wheel or
    it has had to become really bad, like not able to walk anymore. OTOH
    they insist on preventative care which is good. Cancer screening and stuff.

    I visited my former MD, Pansy, and asked her about a dry spot on my
    face. I have the flimsy Irish skin that burns and never tans. She said
    it was an actinic thing, pre-cancerous. She made a call and 5 minutes
    later a "roaming dermatologist" showed up with a liquid nitrogen
    sprayer and cured it in 30 seconds.

    If Sam wants me to give a blood sample or have an x-ray, I walk to
    another floor and they do it right then.

    My retina detatched after cataract surgery, mostly peeled off the back
    of my eyeball. Dr B saw me imediately, served us tea in his office,
    and came in and fixed it at 10 PM. He used me as a demo for a student. Vitrectomy, draining the vitreus and replacing it with Freon, is
    weird. It's nearly the last legal use of Freon.

    Dr B estimates that he has saved 2500 to 4000 eyes, including two of
    mine.

    The true flat-fee HMO has an incentive to keep its patients healthy.

    Kaiser is doctor-owned, which Omamacare banned.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)