We're designing a modular power system and figured we should have a
relay module, and my PCB layout guy is fast so I decided to whip out a
simple module.
Featuritus kicks in. We normally measure voltages and currents, so the
next logical step is to make it a programmable circuit breaker too.
That also protects my relays and PCB traces, to some extent.
So how might a user program a circuit breaker? Just RMS current with
some time constant? Allow fast and slow trips?
Fuses are usually specified to trip at some I^2*T, but that can't be
the whole story, because 1 mA is a lot of I^2*T in ten years.
And my current sensor saturates. If the module is specified for 7.5
amps, and the 10-amp Hall sensor saturates a bit past 12 amps, so a
zillion amps looks like 12 so the I^2*T math doesn't work at, say, 30
amps.
Sine waves sort of work if they don't clip too hard. Luckily, sine
waves are kinda flat on top.
So I need a trip algorithm. That will be executed in an FPGA that sees
a fast ADC that is digitizing the Hall sensor output.
john larkin <[email protected]> wrote:
We're designing a modular power system and figured we should have a
relay module, and my PCB layout guy is fast so I decided to whip out a
simple module.
Featuritus kicks in. We normally measure voltages and currents, so the
next logical step is to make it a programmable circuit breaker too.
That also protects my relays and PCB traces, to some extent.
So how might a user program a circuit breaker? Just RMS current with
some time constant? Allow fast and slow trips?
Fuses are usually specified to trip at some I^2*T, but that can't be
the whole story, because 1 mA is a lot of I^2*T in ten years.
And my current sensor saturates. If the module is specified for 7.5
amps, and the 10-amp Hall sensor saturates a bit past 12 amps, so a
zillion amps looks like 12 so the I^2*T math doesn't work at, say, 30
amps.
Sine waves sort of work if they don't clip too hard. Luckily, sine
waves are kinda flat on top.
So I need a trip algorithm. That will be executed in an FPGA that sees
a fast ADC that is digitizing the Hall sensor output.
Aren’t fuses specified by minimum carrying current? So a 1A fuse is guaranteed to carry 1A forever and reacts I^2t only above that.
I guess your current sensor should remain monotonic upto the maximum
possible current your supply can generate?
Aren’t fuses specified by minimum carrying current?
piglet <[email protected]> wrote:
john larkin <[email protected]> wrote:
We're designing a modular power system and figured we should have a
relay module, and my PCB layout guy is fast so I decided to whip out a
simple module.
Featuritus kicks in. We normally measure voltages and currents, so the
next logical step is to make it a programmable circuit breaker too.
That also protects my relays and PCB traces, to some extent.
So how might a user program a circuit breaker? Just RMS current with
some time constant? Allow fast and slow trips?
Fuses are usually specified to trip at some I^2*T, but that can't be
the whole story, because 1 mA is a lot of I^2*T in ten years.
And my current sensor saturates. If the module is specified for 7.5
amps, and the 10-amp Hall sensor saturates a bit past 12 amps, so a
zillion amps looks like 12 so the I^2*T math doesn't work at, say, 30
amps.
Sine waves sort of work if they don't clip too hard. Luckily, sine
waves are kinda flat on top.
So I need a trip algorithm. That will be executed in an FPGA that sees
a fast ADC that is digitizing the Hall sensor output.
Aren�t fuses specified by minimum carrying current? So a 1A fuse is
guaranteed to carry 1A forever and reacts I^2t only above that.
I guess your current sensor should remain monotonic upto the maximum
possible current your supply can generate?
Nah, that�s way too normal and prudent. ;)
First off, obviously you want a conventional fuse sized to prevent the
thing catching fire if something fails. Having an upstream switching
supply kick off at about the right point helps a lot too.
You can certainly estimate the dissipation when the sensor rails, but it >requires making some assumptions about the current waveform.
For a start, I might try identifying anomalous cases e. g. an overvolted >transformer saturating, and cut those off when the sensor rails, regardless >of I**2t.
If the load is linear- looking, it may be reasonable to assume the current
is sinusoidal, and curve-fit the part that stays onscale.
I�ll also put in a plug for my second-favorite method for fast temperature >measurement: cut out a little niche inside the thermal pour, right next to >the active device. Put an 0603 thermistor with one end on the pour and the >other on a skinny trace to whatever you�re measuring with.
If you avoid the temptation to something more convenient that looks
similar, this trick will give you 100-ms thermal time constants, which is >good enough for many interesting things. (Which possibly includes
protecting power FETs from melting before the fuse blows.)
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
We're designing a modular power system and figured we should have a
relay module, and my PCB layout guy is fast so I decided to whip out a
simple module.
Featuritus kicks in. We normally measure voltages and currents, so the
next logical step is to make it a programmable circuit breaker too.
That also protects my relays and PCB traces, to some extent.
So how might a user program a circuit breaker? Just RMS current with
some time constant? Allow fast and slow trips?
Fuses are usually specified to trip at some I^2*T, but that can't be
the whole story, because 1 mA is a lot of I^2*T in ten years.
And my current sensor saturates. If the module is specified for 7.5
amps, and the 10-amp Hall sensor saturates a bit past 12 amps, so a
zillion amps looks like 12 so the I^2*T math doesn't work at, say, 30
amps.
Sine waves sort of work if they don't clip too hard. Luckily, sine
waves are kinda flat on top.
So I need a trip algorithm. That will be executed in an FPGA that sees
a fast ADC that is digitizing the Hall sensor output.
john larkin <[email protected]> wrote:
We're designing a modular power system and figured we should have a
relay module, and my PCB layout guy is fast so I decided to whip out a
simple module.
Featuritus kicks in. We normally measure voltages and currents, so the
next logical step is to make it a programmable circuit breaker too.
That also protects my relays and PCB traces, to some extent.
So how might a user program a circuit breaker? Just RMS current with
some time constant? Allow fast and slow trips?
Fuses are usually specified to trip at some I^2*T, but that can't be
the whole story, because 1 mA is a lot of I^2*T in ten years.
And my current sensor saturates. If the module is specified for 7.5
amps, and the 10-amp Hall sensor saturates a bit past 12 amps, so a
zillion amps looks like 12 so the I^2*T math doesn't work at, say, 30
amps.
Sine waves sort of work if they don't clip too hard. Luckily, sine
waves are kinda flat on top.
So I need a trip algorithm. That will be executed in an FPGA that sees
a fast ADC that is digitizing the Hall sensor output.
It seems essential to have enough headroom in Hall sensor(s) to see
past the setpoint. Maybe two sensors, one for precise, long-duration
control and a second for transients with lower resolution. If the first
goes to zero, look at the second. If it's not zero too, trip.
One could also use dI/dT to anticipate things going wrong and using
that as a sort of "pre-warning" signal. This invites nuisance trips,
so it would require some amount of filtering.
bob prohaska
john larkin <[email protected]> wrote:
[...]
Maybe I shouldn't diode clamp the relay coils. I'll have to test the
dropout time.
Put a resistor in series with the clamp diode, the value can be chosen
to keep the inductive spike just below the maximum allowable voltage and
that will give the fastest turn-off. By using higher voltage switching >transistors you can have a higher voltage spike and a faster turn-off -
but there is the risk that the spike might be capacitively coupled to >somewhere vulnerable to damage.
On Wed, 5 Mar 2025 15:46:43 -0000 (UTC), [email protected] wrote:
john larkin <[email protected]> wrote:
We're designing a modular power system and figured we should have a
relay module, and my PCB layout guy is fast so I decided to whip out a
simple module.
Featuritus kicks in. We normally measure voltages and currents, so the
next logical step is to make it a programmable circuit breaker too.
That also protects my relays and PCB traces, to some extent.
So how might a user program a circuit breaker? Just RMS current with
some time constant? Allow fast and slow trips?
Fuses are usually specified to trip at some I^2*T, but that can't be
the whole story, because 1 mA is a lot of I^2*T in ten years.
And my current sensor saturates. If the module is specified for 7.5
amps, and the 10-amp Hall sensor saturates a bit past 12 amps, so a
zillion amps looks like 12 so the I^2*T math doesn't work at, say, 30
amps.
Sine waves sort of work if they don't clip too hard. Luckily, sine
waves are kinda flat on top.
So I need a trip algorithm. That will be executed in an FPGA that sees
a fast ADC that is digitizing the Hall sensor output.
It seems essential to have enough headroom in Hall sensor(s) to see
past the setpoint. Maybe two sensors, one for precise, long-duration >>control and a second for transients with lower resolution. If the first >>goes to zero, look at the second. If it's not zero too, trip.
One could also use dI/dT to anticipate things going wrong and using
that as a sort of "pre-warning" signal. This invites nuisance trips,
so it would require some amount of filtering.
bob prohaska
I'm using
MONOLITHIC POWER MCS1802GS-10-Z
partly because we have them in stock. It's officially a 10 amp part
and clips a bit above +-12 amps, so should be OK to protect a relay
channel rated for 7.5 amps.
I'm thinking of doing two RMS current calculations. A fast, maybe 1 ms
calc, with a fixed 10 amp trip. And a user-programmable trip, 1 amp to
8 amps, selectably fast or slow. Something like that.
Maybe I shouldn't diode clamp the relay coils. I'll have to test the
dropout time.
Put a resistor in series with the clamp diode, the value can be chosen
to keep the inductive spike just below the maximum allowable voltage and
that will give the fastest turn-off. By using higher voltage switching transistors you can have a higher voltage spike and a faster turn-off -
but there is the risk that the spike might be capacitively coupled to somewhere vulnerable to damage.
john larkin <[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 5 Mar 2025 15:46:43 -0000 (UTC), [email protected] wrote:
john larkin <[email protected]> wrote:
We're designing a modular power system and figured we should have a
relay module, and my PCB layout guy is fast so I decided to whip out a >>>> simple module.
Featuritus kicks in. We normally measure voltages and currents, so the >>>> next logical step is to make it a programmable circuit breaker too.
That also protects my relays and PCB traces, to some extent.
So how might a user program a circuit breaker? Just RMS current with
some time constant? Allow fast and slow trips?
Fuses are usually specified to trip at some I^2*T, but that can't be
the whole story, because 1 mA is a lot of I^2*T in ten years.
And my current sensor saturates. If the module is specified for 7.5
amps, and the 10-amp Hall sensor saturates a bit past 12 amps, so a
zillion amps looks like 12 so the I^2*T math doesn't work at, say, 30
amps.
Sine waves sort of work if they don't clip too hard. Luckily, sine
waves are kinda flat on top.
So I need a trip algorithm. That will be executed in an FPGA that sees >>>> a fast ADC that is digitizing the Hall sensor output.
It seems essential to have enough headroom in Hall sensor(s) to see
past the setpoint. Maybe two sensors, one for precise, long-duration >>>control and a second for transients with lower resolution. If the first >>>goes to zero, look at the second. If it's not zero too, trip.
One could also use dI/dT to anticipate things going wrong and using
that as a sort of "pre-warning" signal. This invites nuisance trips,
so it would require some amount of filtering.
bob prohaska
I'm using
MONOLITHIC POWER MCS1802GS-10-Z
partly because we have them in stock. It's officially a 10 amp part
and clips a bit above +-12 amps, so should be OK to protect a relay
channel rated for 7.5 amps.
I'm thinking of doing two RMS current calculations. A fast, maybe 1 ms
calc, with a fixed 10 amp trip. And a user-programmable trip, 1 amp to
8 amps, selectably fast or slow. Something like that.
The question seems to be how fast the current can rise to saturate
the sensor. That would depend on the entire circuit. It might
be predictable in your case and so adequate for your situation.
I'm not sure it'll recognize a fault induced by somebody probing
the circuit and accidentally shorting something. That's when a
dI/dT or other independent sensor would be helpful.
bob prohaska
john larkin <[email protected]> wrote:
[...]
Maybe I shouldn't diode clamp the relay coils. I'll have to test the
dropout time.
Put a resistor in series with the clamp diode, the value can be chosen
to keep the inductive spike just below the maximum allowable voltage and
that will give the fastest turn-off. By using higher voltage switching transistors you can have a higher voltage spike and a faster turn-off -
but there is the risk that the spike might be capacitively coupled to somewhere vulnerable to damage.
On 3/5/2025 9:22 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Put a resistor in series with the clamp diode, the value can be chosen
to keep the inductive spike just below the maximum allowable voltage and
that will give the fastest turn-off. By using higher voltage switching
transistors you can have a higher voltage spike and a faster turn-off -
but there is the risk that the spike might be capacitively coupled to
somewhere vulnerable to damage.
It's best to put a zener rated for the coil voltage. This helps
the coil release faster. A regular diode will slow the opening of
the contacts.
Relays 101
On Wed, 5 Mar 2025 17:07:43 -0000 (UTC), [email protected] wrote:
john larkin <[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 5 Mar 2025 15:46:43 -0000 (UTC), [email protected] wrote:
john larkin <[email protected]> wrote:
We're designing a modular power system and figured we should have a
relay module, and my PCB layout guy is fast so I decided to whip out a >>>>> simple module.
Featuritus kicks in. We normally measure voltages and currents, so the >>>>> next logical step is to make it a programmable circuit breaker too.
That also protects my relays and PCB traces, to some extent.
So how might a user program a circuit breaker? Just RMS current with >>>>> some time constant? Allow fast and slow trips?
Fuses are usually specified to trip at some I^2*T, but that can't be >>>>> the whole story, because 1 mA is a lot of I^2*T in ten years.
And my current sensor saturates. If the module is specified for 7.5
amps, and the 10-amp Hall sensor saturates a bit past 12 amps, so a
zillion amps looks like 12 so the I^2*T math doesn't work at, say, 30 >>>>> amps.
Sine waves sort of work if they don't clip too hard. Luckily, sine
waves are kinda flat on top.
So I need a trip algorithm. That will be executed in an FPGA that sees >>>>> a fast ADC that is digitizing the Hall sensor output.
It seems essential to have enough headroom in Hall sensor(s) to see >>>>past the setpoint. Maybe two sensors, one for precise, long-duration >>>>control and a second for transients with lower resolution. If the first >>>>goes to zero, look at the second. If it's not zero too, trip.
One could also use dI/dT to anticipate things going wrong and using >>>>that as a sort of "pre-warning" signal. This invites nuisance trips,
so it would require some amount of filtering.
bob prohaska
I'm using
MONOLITHIC POWER MCS1802GS-10-Z
partly because we have them in stock. It's officially a 10 amp part
and clips a bit above +-12 amps, so should be OK to protect a relay
channel rated for 7.5 amps.
I'm thinking of doing two RMS current calculations. A fast, maybe 1 ms
calc, with a fixed 10 amp trip. And a user-programmable trip, 1 amp to
8 amps, selectably fast or slow. Something like that.
The question seems to be how fast the current can rise to saturate
the sensor. That would depend on the entire circuit. It might
be predictable in your case and so adequate for your situation.
I assume that a current overload will have zero risetime. A relay
contact closing can actually generate picosecond edges.
I'll be digitizing each Hall sensor current at 50k samples/second, and probably doing some FPGA lowpass filtering. An RMS calculation
inherently lowpass filters.
I'm not sure it'll recognize a fault induced by somebody probing
the circuit and accidentally shorting something. That's when a
dI/dT or other independent sensor would be helpful.
bob prohaska
Don't do that.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/trdug87h0w498h94znv3x/Probe_Slips.jpg?rlkey=r5a22cx09twhsn9edq4c6es6f&raw=1
john larkin <[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 5 Mar 2025 17:07:43 -0000 (UTC), [email protected] wrote:
john larkin <[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, 5 Mar 2025 15:46:43 -0000 (UTC), [email protected] wrote:
john larkin <[email protected]> wrote:
We're designing a modular power system and figured we should have a >>>>>> relay module, and my PCB layout guy is fast so I decided to whip out a >>>>>> simple module.
Featuritus kicks in. We normally measure voltages and currents, so the >>>>>> next logical step is to make it a programmable circuit breaker too. >>>>>> That also protects my relays and PCB traces, to some extent.
So how might a user program a circuit breaker? Just RMS current with >>>>>> some time constant? Allow fast and slow trips?
Fuses are usually specified to trip at some I^2*T, but that can't be >>>>>> the whole story, because 1 mA is a lot of I^2*T in ten years.
And my current sensor saturates. If the module is specified for 7.5 >>>>>> amps, and the 10-amp Hall sensor saturates a bit past 12 amps, so a >>>>>> zillion amps looks like 12 so the I^2*T math doesn't work at, say, 30 >>>>>> amps.
Sine waves sort of work if they don't clip too hard. Luckily, sine >>>>>> waves are kinda flat on top.
So I need a trip algorithm. That will be executed in an FPGA that sees >>>>>> a fast ADC that is digitizing the Hall sensor output.
It seems essential to have enough headroom in Hall sensor(s) to see >>>>>past the setpoint. Maybe two sensors, one for precise, long-duration >>>>>control and a second for transients with lower resolution. If the first >>>>>goes to zero, look at the second. If it's not zero too, trip.
One could also use dI/dT to anticipate things going wrong and using >>>>>that as a sort of "pre-warning" signal. This invites nuisance trips, >>>>>so it would require some amount of filtering.
bob prohaska
I'm using
MONOLITHIC POWER MCS1802GS-10-Z
partly because we have them in stock. It's officially a 10 amp part
and clips a bit above +-12 amps, so should be OK to protect a relay
channel rated for 7.5 amps.
I'm thinking of doing two RMS current calculations. A fast, maybe 1 ms >>>> calc, with a fixed 10 amp trip. And a user-programmable trip, 1 amp to >>>> 8 amps, selectably fast or slow. Something like that.
The question seems to be how fast the current can rise to saturate
the sensor. That would depend on the entire circuit. It might
be predictable in your case and so adequate for your situation.
I assume that a current overload will have zero risetime. A relay
contact closing can actually generate picosecond edges.
I'll be digitizing each Hall sensor current at 50k samples/second, and
probably doing some FPGA lowpass filtering. An RMS calculation
inherently lowpass filters.
It'd be interesting to know what the device does when exposed to a
burst of out of band AC. Figure 9 implies a well-behaved rolloff,
for which 50ksamples/sec is likely to reveal an overcurrent trend
before saturation. If that's true the warning ought to be adequate.
I'm not sure it'll recognize a fault induced by somebody probing
the circuit and accidentally shorting something. That's when a
dI/dT or other independent sensor would be helpful.
bob prohaska
Don't do that.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/trdug87h0w498h94znv3x/Probe_Slips.jpg?rlkey=r5a22cx09twhsn9edq4c6es6f&raw=1
8-)
If you're saying probe slips are beyond the scope of your design
it's understood and accepted. Are you anticipating a manual reset?
bob prohaska
Liz Tuddenham <[email protected]d> wrote:
john larkin <[email protected]> wrote:
[...]
Maybe I shouldn't diode clamp the relay coils. I'll have to test the
dropout time.
Put a resistor in series with the clamp diode, the value can be chosen
to keep the inductive spike just below the maximum allowable voltage and
that will give the fastest turn-off. By using higher voltage switching
transistors you can have a higher voltage spike and a faster turn-off -
but there is the risk that the spike might be capacitively coupled to
somewhere vulnerable to damage.
Or even just a resistor and no diode! The extra few percent current >consumption is often not a problem and a resistor is very reliable, more >durable than a diode.
So how might a user program a circuit breaker? Just RMS current with
some time constant? Allow fast and slow trips?
It will be a module that goes into this box:
https://highlandtechnology.com/Category/MPS
and operation will usually be from some computer. We'll also allow
operation from the front panel, but that's mostly for setup and
testing.
Either way, users can open and close relays, declare trip rules,
measure voltage and currents, and reset trips.
On 3/4/2025 9:06 PM, john larkin wrote:
...
So how might a user program a circuit breaker? Just RMS current with
some time constant? Allow fast and slow trips?
I've designed an electronic circuit breaker using Linear Technology
(now Analog Devices) hot swap controllers. It looks like they offer
some products with a programmable current limit.
I'm not sure if you can change the circuit breaker time delay though.
On Wed, 5 Mar 2025 16:22:21 +0000, [email protected]d
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <[email protected]> wrote:
[...]
Maybe I shouldn't diode clamp the relay coils. I'll have to test the
dropout time.
Put a resistor in series with the clamp diode, the value can be chosen
to keep the inductive spike just below the maximum allowable voltage and
that will give the fastest turn-off. By using higher voltage switching
transistors you can have a higher voltage spike and a faster turn-off -
but there is the risk that the spike might be capacitively coupled to
somewhere vulnerable to damage.
Those little mosfets avalanche reliably. The only hazard would be
rapid cycling causing too much power dissipation.
The resistor is a good idea. Or clamp to some giant shared TVS zener.
On 3/5/25 17:39, john larkin wrote:
On Wed, 5 Mar 2025 16:22:21 +0000, [email protected]d
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <[email protected]> wrote:
[...]
Maybe I shouldn't diode clamp the relay coils. I'll have to test the
dropout time.
Put a resistor in series with the clamp diode, the value can be chosen
to keep the inductive spike just below the maximum allowable voltage and >> that will give the fastest turn-off. By using higher voltage switching
transistors you can have a higher voltage spike and a faster turn-off -
but there is the risk that the spike might be capacitively coupled to
somewhere vulnerable to damage.
Those little mosfets avalanche reliably. The only hazard would be
rapid cycling causing too much power dissipation.
The resistor is a good idea. Or clamp to some giant shared TVS zener.
or just diode to the 48V supply
Lasse Langwadt <[email protected]> wrote:
On 3/5/25 17:39, john larkin wrote:
On Wed, 5 Mar 2025 16:22:21 +0000, [email protected]d
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <[email protected]> wrote:
[...]
Maybe I shouldn't diode clamp the relay coils. I'll have to test the
dropout time.
Put a resistor in series with the clamp diode, the value can be chosen
to keep the inductive spike just below the maximum allowable voltage and >> >> that will give the fastest turn-off. By using higher voltage switching >> >> transistors you can have a higher voltage spike and a faster turn-off - >> >> but there is the risk that the spike might be capacitively coupled to
somewhere vulnerable to damage.
Those little mosfets avalanche reliably. The only hazard would be
rapid cycling causing too much power dissipation.
The resistor is a good idea. Or clamp to some giant shared TVS zener.
or just diode to the 48V supply
As long as the supply can absorb current or is supplying a greater load >current than the relays can dump.
On 06-03-2025 00:55, john larkin wrote:About the relay, you can detect the armature position by measuring the
On Wed, 5 Mar 2025 15:36:22 -0800, Buzz McCool <[email protected]>I am working on a solid state circuit breaker. So instead of your relay,
wrote:
On 3/4/2025 9:06 PM, john larkin wrote:
...
So how might a user program a circuit breaker? Just RMS current with
some time constant? Allow fast and slow trips?
I've designed an electronic circuit breaker using Linear Technology
(now Analog Devices) hot swap controllers. It looks like they offer
some products with a programmable current limit.
I'm not sure if you can change the circuit breaker time delay though.
I used a TI e-fuse chip in one product. TPS26600. It liked to blow up.
Being a nasty power-pad chip, it was very hard to replace.
AP22652 is cool. We use it to current limit the power into pulse
generator output drivers.
On our relay board, we'll have a Hall effect current sensor driving a
fast ADC, and the shutdown will be FPGA code, so we can do most
anything.
I have two IGBTs back to back for ac operation.
You can do more than just measure the current. I have added an inductor
on the output, so in case of a short and umlimited power on the primary
side, the current rises defined before saturation.
You can detect the voltage over the switch/inductor, if too high you
have a short. That will probably be much faster than the hall sensor
The inductor will limited the dI/dt, so the IGBTs are turned off before
SOA is reached. Kick back pulse must be diverted off course, when/if the
load decides not to be a short any more at the peak of the current ramp.
On Wed, 5 Mar 2025 15:36:22 -0800, Buzz McCool <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 3/4/2025 9:06 PM, john larkin wrote:
...
So how might a user program a circuit breaker? Just RMS current with
some time constant? Allow fast and slow trips?
I've designed an electronic circuit breaker using Linear Technology
(now Analog Devices) hot swap controllers. It looks like they offer
some products with a programmable current limit.
I'm not sure if you can change the circuit breaker time delay though.
I used a TI e-fuse chip in one product. TPS26600. It liked to blow up.
Being a nasty power-pad chip, it was very hard to replace.
AP22652 is cool. We use it to current limit the power into pulse
generator output drivers.
On our relay board, we'll have a Hall effect current sensor driving a
fast ADC, and the shutdown will be FPGA code, so we can do most
anything.
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