• Re: Question about Oxley RFI suppression filters FLTM/P/5000

    From piglet@21:1/5 to Jean-Pierre Coulon on Thu Jan 30 14:08:16 2025
    Jean-Pierre Coulon <[email protected]> wrote:
    I have put some on an amplifier box for my + and 5 V supplies. But yet a ripple on either supply signically contaminates my outut signal.

    AFAIK they represent a 6-uH series inductor and an about 5-nF parallel capacitor. Is this inductor a coil or a toroid? If it is a coil it could radiate a signficant magnetic field, contaminating my input signal.

    Regards

    Sorry I don’t know the internal construction but suspect the inductor is possibly not a coil but merely the central conductor passing through a
    ferrite sleeve. In those feedthroughs the capacitors are often annular too
    so nothing is left to chance.

    You haven’t said what the frequency is of the ripple that you observe,
    those devices will have negligible effect at powerline frequency.

    --
    piglet

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  • From Jean-Pierre Coulon@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 30 14:53:25 2025
    I have put some on an amplifier box for my + and 5 V supplies. But yet a
    ripple on either supply signically contaminates my outut signal.

    AFAIK they represent a 6-uH series inductor and an about 5-nF parallel capacitor. Is this inductor a coil or a toroid? If it is a coil it could radiate a signficant magnetic field, contaminating my input signal.

    Regards
    --
    Jean-Pierre Coulon

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  • From piglet@21:1/5 to Jean-Pierre Coulon on Thu Jan 30 15:09:34 2025
    Jean-Pierre Coulon <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Thu, 30 Jan 2025, piglet wrote:

    You haven’t said what the frequency is of the ripple that you observe,
    those devices will have negligible effect at powerline frequency.

    Typically 5 to 20 MHz.


    Ok, thanks. I’d expect they’d be very effective at VHF/UHF but should already be showing some insertion loss by 5MHz

    --
    piglet

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  • From Jean-Pierre Coulon@21:1/5 to piglet on Thu Jan 30 15:23:09 2025
    On Thu, 30 Jan 2025, piglet wrote:

    You haven�t said what the frequency is of the ripple that you observe,
    those devices will have negligible effect at powerline frequency.

    Typically 5 to 20 MHz.

    --
    Jean-Pierre Coulon

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  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Thu Jan 30 10:06:31 2025
    On Thu, 30 Jan 2025 14:53:25 +0100, Jean-Pierre Coulon <[email protected]> wrote:

    I have put some on an amplifier box for my + and 5 V supplies. But yet a >ripple on either supply signically contaminates my outut signal.

    AFAIK they represent a 6-uH series inductor and an about 5-nF parallel >capacitor. Is this inductor a coil or a toroid? If it is a coil it could >radiate a signficant magnetic field, contaminating my input signal.

    Regards

    EMI filters only filter high frequency stuff, AM band and up. If your
    problem is AC-line frequency ripple or low frequency switcher noise, a
    typical EMI filter won'[t help.

    What does the contamination look/sound like?

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  • From Jean-Pierre Coulon@21:1/5 to john larkin on Fri Jan 31 15:40:34 2025
    On Thu, 30 Jan 2025, john larkin wrote:

    EMI filters only filter high frequency stuff, AM band and up. If your
    problem is AC-line frequency ripple or low frequency switcher noise, a typical EMI filter won'[t help.

    What does the contamination look/sound like?

    At 10 MHz the ripple of my power supplies contaminates my output signal at a level much higher than the documented inserson loss.

    So I suspect some 10 MHz makes its way through a magnetic field and perhaps a filter with only a simple annular capacitor would be more effective.


    --
    Jean-Pierre Coulon

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  • From Jean-Pierre Coulon@21:1/5 to piglet on Fri Jan 31 15:35:42 2025
    On Thu, 30 Jan 2025, piglet wrote:

    Ok, thanks. I’d expect they’d be very effective at VHF/UHF but should already be showing some insertion loss by 5MHz

    This is well documented. Insersion loss = about 30 dB at 10 MHz and about 70
    dB at 100 MHz. I checked it.

    --
    Jean-Pierre Coulon

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  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to Jean-Pierre Coulon on Fri Jan 31 19:34:46 2025
    On 1/31/25 15:40, Jean-Pierre Coulon wrote:
    On Thu, 30 Jan 2025, john larkin wrote:

    EMI filters only filter high frequency stuff, AM band and up. If your
    problem is AC-line frequency ripple or low frequency switcher noise, a
    typical EMI filter won'[t help.

    What does the contamination look/sound like?

    At 10 MHz the ripple of my power supplies contaminates my output signal
    at a level much higher than the documented inserson loss.

    So I suspect some 10 MHz makes its way through a magnetic field and
    perhaps a filter with only a simple annular capacitor would be  more effective.



    It looks like your circuit has gain from power-in to output. That's
    bad.

    Anyway, it's poor practice to expect a feedthrough filter to clean
    switcher noise off your power lines.

    Jeroen Belleman

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  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to Jeroen Belleman on Fri Jan 31 20:17:55 2025
    Jeroen Belleman <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 1/31/25 15:40, Jean-Pierre Coulon wrote:
    On Thu, 30 Jan 2025, john larkin wrote:

    EMI filters only filter high frequency stuff, AM band and up. If your
    problem is AC-line frequency ripple or low frequency switcher noise, a
    typical EMI filter won'[t help.

    What does the contamination look/sound like?

    At 10 MHz the ripple of my power supplies contaminates my output signal
    at a level much higher than the documented inserson loss.

    So I suspect some 10 MHz makes its way through a magnetic field and
    perhaps a filter with only a simple annular capacitor would be� more
    effective.



    It looks like your circuit has gain from power-in to output. That's
    bad.

    Anyway, it's poor practice to expect a feedthrough filter to clean
    switcher noise off your power lines.


    Common in single-ended circuits, though. I do a lot of discrete amps and
    (for my sins) photoreceivers, which use two-transistor, four-pole cap multipliers with >>100 dB rejection at SMPS frequencies.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs





    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

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  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical. on Fri Jan 31 13:28:48 2025
    On Fri, 31 Jan 2025 20:17:55 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <[email protected]> wrote:

    Jeroen Belleman <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 1/31/25 15:40, Jean-Pierre Coulon wrote:
    On Thu, 30 Jan 2025, john larkin wrote:

    EMI filters only filter high frequency stuff, AM band and up. If your
    problem is AC-line frequency ripple or low frequency switcher noise, a >>>> typical EMI filter won'[t help.

    What does the contamination look/sound like?

    At 10 MHz the ripple of my power supplies contaminates my output signal
    at a level much higher than the documented inserson loss.

    So I suspect some 10 MHz makes its way through a magnetic field and
    perhaps a filter with only a simple annular capacitor would be?
    effective.



    It looks like your circuit has gain from power-in to output. That's
    bad.

    Anyway, it's poor practice to expect a feedthrough filter to clean
    switcher noise off your power lines.


    Common in single-ended circuits, though. I do a lot of discrete amps and
    (for my sins) photoreceivers, which use two-transistor, four-pole cap >multipliers with >>100 dB rejection at SMPS frequencies.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs



    HF noise coupling paths may not all be visible on the schematic. I
    could tell horror stories.

    Some switchers are really nasty.

    Jean-Pierre, what switcher are you using?

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