On a sunny day (Wed, 3 Jul 2024 13:46:18 +0100) it happened Martin Brown ><'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in <v63h6r$26bjr$[email protected]>:
On 03/07/2024 13:20, Jan Panteltje wrote:
I started learning French here ik kindergarten in the late forties..
Do English ever learn French? German?
Yes but far too late to be much use. Since Brexit there is even less >>teaching of modern languages. English people have now become as lazy as >>Americans and so expect everyone to speak English. My 1970's state >>secondary school had a language lab with tape recorders and headsets for >>everybody and taught French, German, Spanish, Greek & Latin.
Everybody did French at first. Those that had done it at primary school
had a massive head start which we never regained. If you were any good
at it you could choose Latin or Greek. I chose Latin. I found I was much >>better at ancient languages that didn't require speaking them!
Most educated Dutch or Swiss people I have encountered are fluent in at >>least three languages. I had one intern from U Twente who was brilliant.
Yes, highschool here required Dutch, French, German, English, some also Latin. >Later I did some Spanish and started on Chinese, never finised Spanish and Chinese
would need to be there a while to get the feel of it.
Had no problem in Spain though:-)
I learned some Russian at university too (for reading scientific papers) >>and then later Japanese by immersion in Japan. In Belgium my Flemish was >>just about good enough to get by - my wife's was better.
My Russian is very limited ..
Watching satellite TV programs is a good way to learn the languages.
Now they block Russian satellite TV (in English) here, only the US viewpoints allowed.
On Thu, 04 Jul 2024 05:50:03 GMT, Jan Panteltje <[email protected]d>
wrote:
On a sunny day (Wed, 3 Jul 2024 13:46:18 +0100) it happened Martin Brown >><'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in <v63h6r$26bjr$[email protected]>:
On 03/07/2024 13:20, Jan Panteltje wrote:
I started learning French here ik kindergarten in the late forties..
Do English ever learn French? German?
Yes but far too late to be much use. Since Brexit there is even less >>>teaching of modern languages. English people have now become as lazy as >>>Americans and so expect everyone to speak English. My 1970's state >>>secondary school had a language lab with tape recorders and headsets for >>>everybody and taught French, German, Spanish, Greek & Latin.
Everybody did French at first. Those that had done it at primary school >>>had a massive head start which we never regained. If you were any good
at it you could choose Latin or Greek. I chose Latin. I found I was much >>>better at ancient languages that didn't require speaking them!
Most educated Dutch or Swiss people I have encountered are fluent in at >>>least three languages. I had one intern from U Twente who was brilliant.
Yes, highschool here required Dutch, French, German, English, some also Latin.
Later I did some Spanish and started on Chinese, never finised Spanish and Chinese
would need to be there a while to get the feel of it.
Had no problem in Spain though:-)
I learned some Russian at university too (for reading scientific papers) >>>and then later Japanese by immersion in Japan. In Belgium my Flemish was >>>just about good enough to get by - my wife's was better.
My Russian is very limited ..
Watching satellite TV programs is a good way to learn the languages.
Now they block Russian satellite TV (in English) here, only the US viewpoints allowed.
It is not blocked in the US. If you use a VPN to tunnel into the US,
you will be able to get it over the internet.
Wonder why the EU thinks that blocking such as RT will have much
effect.
On 7/3/2024 8:57 AM, Don Y wrote:
Do you have a pointer to that information (looking for tips that
I may not have discovered as I've been digitizing my dead trees)?
Sorry about that last post. I have been having trouble
with my email and everything has been messed up.
Have you found https://diybookscanner.org/?
On their Forum
there are probably posted thousands of things about all
aspects of book scanning. If you search there you can get
answers to almost any question you might have.
On 02/07/2024 18:03, DJ Delorie wrote:
john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> writes:
It's my opinion that there are few hobbyists that really work with
parts and make circuits, and most EE grads are EE/CE dual majors that
code more than they solder, and don't have instincts for electricity.
IMHO the term "hobby electronics" used to mean "soldering up radios" but
now means "jumper wiring modules". Arduino, RPi, and ESP32 have made it
trivial for anyone to wire up sensors and actuators.
Where used to be a niche talent (designing transistors or ICs) has moved
up the tree (designing modules) with the corresponding dearth of
interested applicants.
One can only hope that easy access to PCB manufacturing and assembly
services will make the niche talents more popular.
I used to solder/build up valve amplifiers that went into record players
back in the 60's as a school kid...300V bites :)
I have a large paper library. I am also getting old.
I may have to go into some sort of assisted living
when I can't go on living by myself. When I do I will
not be able to take my library with me. So I have
been building a digital library. Most books that I have
are available in digital format. But I realized that many
of the older books are not available. They are mainly fiction,
mysteries, SF, even a few romances. And mostly from
the time when books were mostly a one time event. A
few old time authors, such as Agatha Christie, are still
in print and available as print or digital, but many
are not. So I decided to digitize those books for myself.
While most of them are in copyright, I have no idea how
to get permission. I suspect that is why many of them are
not in digital format. So I have been digitizing them for
my own use. I will not distribute them in any way. They
are strictly for my own use. If any of them show up in
digital format I will buy that edition.
So I have been doing non-destructive scanning. This is a
rather long process, since I am creating epub formatted books
epub is a format based on HTML so that it can be automatically
reformatted to fit on any screen. But that means extra
work. It takes anyplace for 3 days to a week, depending on
the size and quality of the book. First I scan it using
my DIY scanner. This involves taking a photo of each page,
then converting the photos to text, using Optical Character
Recognition (OCR) software. After that is the slow part.
I insert the text into a word processor and proof it to
correct all the many errors the OCR makes in the process.
How many errors depends partly on the quality of the source.
Then it is fairly simple to convert it to the epub format,
or into the AZW3 format that can be read by kindle.
Bill
I have a large paper library. I am also getting old.
I may have to go into some sort of assisted living
when I can't go on living by myself. When I do I will
not be able to take my library with me. So I have
been building a digital library. Most books that I have
are available in digital format. But I realized that many
of the older books are not available. They are mainly fiction,
mysteries, SF, even a few romances. And mostly from
the time when books were mostly a one time event. A
few old time authors, such as Agatha Christie, are still
in print and available as print or digital, but many
are not. So I decided to digitize those books for myself.
While most of them are in copyright, I have no idea how
to get permission.
I suspect that is why many of them are
not in digital format. So I have been digitizing them for
my own use. I will not distribute them in any way. They
are strictly for my own use. If any of them show up in
digital format I will buy that edition.
So I have been doing non-destructive scanning. This is a
rather long process, since I am creating epub formatted books
epub is a format based on HTML so that it can be automatically
reformatted to fit on any screen.
But that means extra
work. It takes anyplace for 3 days to a week, depending on
the size and quality of the book. First I scan it using
my DIY scanner. This involves taking a photo of each page,
then converting the photos to text, using Optical Character
Recognition (OCR) software. After that is the slow part.
I insert the text into a word processor and proof it to
correct all the many errors the OCR makes in the process.
How many errors depends partly on the quality of the source.
Then it is fairly simple to convert it to the epub format,
or into the AZW3 format that can be read by kindle.
The "small" scanner claims I have scanned 94931 double-sided sheets
(i.e., ~190K images)
On 7/5/2024 11:51 AM, Don Y wrote:
Ah, I would consider capturing the images in this manner to
be slow. You have to manually flip pages and reposition the
book in the scanner -- ? It's got to take 10+ (20+??) seconds
to perform that action? So, even a 250p "pocket paperback"
would be > 1200 (2400??) seconds just to scan! And then "collect"?
[I.e., 95K scans would have taken 950K seconds -- 16000 minutes
(~250 hours)]
Generally photographing the pages takes me 30 minutes to
an hour. I mostly scanned books of 250 to 300 pages.
And most of the books, being older, were somewhat smaller.
There weren't a whole lot of 1000 page fiction works
in the 'good old days'.
I think that the increase in the size of books can
probably be blamed on word processors. With a
word processor you can revise, insert and delete
text a lot more easily than with a typewriter.
It's my opinion that there are few hobbyists that really work with
parts and make circuits, and most EE grads are EE/CE dual majors that
code more than they solder, and don't have instincts for electricity.
Here's a youtube on the subject:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLnolhyT5SI
Some of these guys blame surface mount, which seems wrong to me. There
are lots of thru-hole parts and parts kits around.
I'd like to hire a few kids who love component-level electronics, but
they are hard to find.
On 02/07/2024 17:28, john larkin wrote:
It's my opinion that there are few hobbyists that really work with
parts and make circuits, and most EE grads are EE/CE dual majors that
code more than they solder, and don't have instincts for electricity.
There are still a few, but it has become a very minority interest today. Partly because everything is so heavily integrated and
surface mount.
When I grew up you could get dead ICL 1900 boards full of TTL chips for and bags dross coated transistors at start of line for
pennies. Today there is no equivalent source of cheap easily reused parts.
Back then there were also electronic kits for build your own computer etc.
A lot of it today is plugging new mass produced modules together. Raspberry Pi has done a lot for that and to encourage
electronics hobbyists though so it isn't all bad news.
Here's a youtube on the subject:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLnolhyT5SI
Some of these guys blame surface mount, which seems wrong to me. There
are lots of thru-hole parts and parts kits around.
Surface mount has rendered modern kit all but impossible for the home user to repair. I cut my teeth mending transistor car radios
back when chassis earth was chosen randomly by each car manufacturer to be either positive or negative and people blew up their
brand new car radios.
The other big earner was mending teenage wannabe rock stars amplifiers that had their output transistors fried or a pint of beer
in them.
I'd like to hire a few kids who love component-level electronics, but
they are hard to find.
Go looking at maker-spaces or whatever they are called in the US. Most of them will be trying to make electric guitars but they
will be showing at least some skills with small pickup coils and low noise amplifiers.
Back in my day a lot of our physics practicals were essentially electronics based - characteristics of a FET, various oscillators
and a substantial digital electronics and logic course with a finishing test of making a digital dice (it may still be the same
course even now).
I'm pretty sure the previous generation did the same experiments on thermionic valves and relays but that was discontinued on H&S
grounds.
--
Martin Brown
"Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in message news:v635o1$24goj$[email protected]...
On 02/07/2024 17:28, john larkin wrote:
Some of these guys blame surface mount, which seems wrong to me. There
are lots of thru-hole parts and parts kits around.
Surface mount has rendered modern kit all but impossible for the home user to repair. I cut my teeth mending transistor car radios
back when chassis earth was chosen randomly by each car manufacturer to be either positive or negative and people blew up their
brand new car radios.
The other big earner was mending teenage wannabe rock stars amplifiers that had their output transistors fried or a pint of beer
in them.
Anyone remember SN76013N/023N.
Horrible things, particularly when it must be your fault that the replacements (two for stereo) blew up again a few days after
repair.
On 7/6/2024 12:28 PM, Don Y wrote:
Yes -- definitely true of "pocket books". Do you have
to take care in positioning the book to ensure it is in the
cameras' focused field? I.e., the scanner approach automatically
crops the image to the actual page size so you just load pages
and wait -- to load MORE pages.
I am using my own KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) scanner, which
I designed myself. I originally called it a Tower Scanner, but
changed the name when I realized that I had made it as simple
as possible.
I posted a description of it on DIY Book Scanner, at: https://diybookscanner.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=22274&hilit=tower+scanner#p22274
As you can see I have a mirror in the base of the scanner
that I used to verify that the page is correctly placed. It
doesn't zoom in to fit the page, it just overscans.
I don't do much manipulation of the images before I OCR them.
I use Abby Finereader 14 which does a pretty good job of
picking out the text. I stick with 14 because it works good
and newer versions are only available as subscriptions.
Understand that I am making ebooks that I can carry around on
different devises, not PDFs that can also be viewed on different
devices, but don't necessarily have all the text correct.
And I don't digitize technical books. They are a whole different proposition, with lots of finicky illustrations. Not something
that I would like to try to digitize.
Also I don't want to destroy my paper books. I like reading
books on paper. After all that is how I grew up.
On 07/07/2024 00:01, Edward Rawde wrote:
"Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in message news:v635o1$24goj$[email protected]...
On 02/07/2024 17:28, john larkin wrote:
Some of these guys blame surface mount, which seems wrong to me. There >>>> are lots of thru-hole parts and parts kits around.
Surface mount has rendered modern kit all but impossible for the home user to repair. I cut my teeth mending transistor car
radios
back when chassis earth was chosen randomly by each car manufacturer to be either positive or negative and people blew up their
brand new car radios.
The other big earner was mending teenage wannabe rock stars amplifiers that had their output transistors fried or a pint of beer
in them.
Anyone remember SN76013N/023N.
Horrible things, particularly when it must be your fault that the replacements (two for stereo) blew up again a few days after
repair.
ISTR a remarkable number of 741s or 709s inside them and the odd SE540 in the better ones. 2955/3055 output pairs - before power
FETs took over.
--
Martin Brown
When I worked as a designer I came across fake parts a few times. One reel
if devices was SO8 and the devices were marked with the correct number but the manufacturer didn't make that part in SO8. So it wasn't hard to spot the fake. Another reel of devices did have the correct part number on the
correct package but it was anybody's guess what chip was actually in the package.
On 7/7/2024 10:43 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
When I worked as a designer I came across fake parts a few times. One
reel
if devices was SO8 and the devices were marked with the correct number
but
the manufacturer didn't make that part in SO8. So it wasn't hard to
spot the
fake. Another reel of devices did have the correct part number on the
correct package but it was anybody's guess what chip was actually in the
package.
I had a client contact me about a problem he was having with some
other design (not one of mine). Begrudgingly, I offered to help
(I don't like having to troubleshoot other designs as you never
know the quality of the design/designer).
It quickly became apparent that one device was bad in every sample.
On closer inspection, there was no die *in* the package!
On 07/07/2024 19:32, Don Y wrote:
On 7/7/2024 10:43 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
When I worked as a designer I came across fake parts a few times. One reel >>> if devices was SO8 and the devices were marked with the correct number but >>> the manufacturer didn't make that part in SO8. So it wasn't hard to spot the
fake. Another reel of devices did have the correct part number on the
correct package but it was anybody's guess what chip was actually in the >>> package.
I had a client contact me about a problem he was having with some
other design (not one of mine). Begrudgingly, I offered to help
(I don't like having to troubleshoot other designs as you never
know the quality of the design/designer).
It quickly became apparent that one device was bad in every sample.
On closer inspection, there was no die *in* the package!
We once had a flashover event with a very expensive prototype 22bit ADC back in
the late 80's where it vapourised the bond out leads. The chip was working really well right up to that point and we had a 6 sig fig linear ADC (intention
was to replace bulk buy Solartron 7060s).
We decided honesty was the best course of action and the chip makers liasson guy admitted that if *they* hadn't tested it themselves before shipping it to us they could have believed that they forgot that step!
They gave us another chip and the things went into full production not long after they were able to produce them in bulk. Solartron were a bit surprised when one their best customers vanished completely.
On 7/7/2024 6:41 AM, BillGill wrote:
On 7/6/2024 12:28 PM, Don Y wrote:
Yes -- definitely true of "pocket books". Do you have
to take care in positioning the book to ensure it is in the
cameras' focused field? I.e., the scanner approach automatically
crops the image to the actual page size so you just load pages
and wait -- to load MORE pages.
I am using my own KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) scanner, which
I designed myself. I originally called it a Tower Scanner, but
changed the name when I realized that I had made it as simple
as possible.
I posted a description of it on DIY Book Scanner, at:
https://diybookscanner.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=22274&hilit=tower+scanner#p22274
As you can see I have a mirror in the base of the scanner
that I used to verify that the page is correctly placed. It
doesn't zoom in to fit the page, it just overscans.
If the USB i/f worked, you wouldn't need the mirror (?)
Your approach seems more like the Reading Machine used
(in "paper handling") -- though it used a moving camera-illuminator
to scan the actual page (which meant the book had to remain in place for
a considerable length of time): ><https://life.ieee.org/wp-content/uploads/Harvey-Lauer-with-Kurzweil-Reading-Machine-1200x819.png>
I don't do much manipulation of the images before I OCR them.
I use Abby Finereader 14 which does a pretty good job of
picking out the text. I stick with 14 because it works good
and newer versions are only available as subscriptions.
All OCR tools "have problems". My scanner will do OCR but then I
lose the original images (so how do I sort out what the OCR *should* have >been once the original is gone?). I've also had some luck with
Omnipage.
Understand that I am making ebooks that I can carry around on
different devises, not PDFs that can also be viewed on different
devices, but don't necessarily have all the text correct.
The PDF doesn't have to get the text correct; it can store the
image of the page (and let your eyes/brain do the OCR).
I can store the OCRed text "behind" the image so that you can select
the text with your cursor (in a PC application). But, again, you
are stuck relying on the quality of the OCR algorithm.
And I don't digitize technical books. They are a whole different
proposition, with lots of finicky illustrations. Not something
that I would like to try to digitize.
As my goal is to be rid of dead trees, I have no choice in the
matter. Even discarding (scanning) all of my "paperbacks" leaves me
with a few hundred cubic feet of paper.
Also I don't want to destroy my paper books. I like reading
books on paper. After all that is how I grew up.
Agreed. But, if you are proactively safeguarding your collection against
the possibility of downsizing into a different living situation, you've >already decided that they will be discarded -- even if not "destroyed".
As you can see I have a mirror in the base of the scanner
that I used to verify that the page is correctly placed. It
doesn't zoom in to fit the page, it just overscans.
If the USB i/f worked, you wouldn't need the mirror (?)
There is some software that works with some cameras that will
send the images directly to the computer.
When I was KISSing
the scanner I went with the simplest approach. This way it
will work with any camera, you just have to build it so that
the camera is at the correct distance from the platen.
Your approach seems more like the Reading Machine used
(in "paper handling") -- though it used a moving camera-illuminator
to scan the actual page (which meant the book had to remain in place for
a considerable length of time):
<https://life.ieee.org/wp-content/uploads/Harvey-Lauer-with-Kurzweil-Reading-Machine-1200x819.png>
Well, I see that the way the book is set on the scanner is
similar, but of course my scanner takes the whole page at
once.
The goal is, of course, different. The reading machine
is turning the printed text into sound, which is a whole
different thing from turning it into text.
I don't do much manipulation of the images before I OCR them.
I use Abby Finereader 14 which does a pretty good job of
picking out the text. I stick with 14 because it works good
and newer versions are only available as subscriptions.
All OCR tools "have problems". My scanner will do OCR but then I
lose the original images (so how do I sort out what the OCR *should* have
been once the original is gone?). I've also had some luck with
Omnipage.
Since I have the original scans in the computer, rather than running
them straight through the OCR and losing the originals that is not
a problem. And of course I still have the original books so that I
can proof the text with confidence.
Understand that I am making ebooks that I can carry around on
different devises, not PDFs that can also be viewed on different
devices, but don't necessarily have all the text correct.
The PDF doesn't have to get the text correct; it can store the
image of the page (and let your eyes/brain do the OCR).
I can store the OCRed text "behind" the image so that you can select
the text with your cursor (in a PC application). But, again, you
are stuck relying on the quality of the OCR algorithm.
Does the PDF reflow the text so that the text size is the same
size on all devices, including a phone? The EPUB format does
that. It also resizes any illustrations so that they will fit.
Illustrations of course have to be handled seperately. I run
any page with illustrations through a graphics programs, such as
GIMP to do any cleanup, such as cropping the image to provide
only the illustration. Then I reinsert the illustration into
the text file at the appropriate location.
Also I don't want to destroy my paper books. I like reading
books on paper. After all that is how I grew up.
Agreed. But, if you are proactively safeguarding your collection against >> the possibility of downsizing into a different living situation, you've
already decided that they will be discarded -- even if not "destroyed".
As I say, I prefer real books, and have the space to keep them.
When I do have to dispose of them I will sell them to
a used books store, or donate them to Goodwill,
which, here in Tulsa, has a pretty good used book store in
the back corner
Bill
No. The PDF is a (lossless) photo of the page. For "pocket books"
(i.e., the paperbacks of the 60's), my ereader screens are large
enough that it is as if I was holding the original book in my hand
(but only seeing recto or verso page-at-a-time).
One advantage of the EPUB format is that it can be read on
any size device, including a phone, although I for one can
not imagine trying to read on a phone.
[Imagine finding yourself in an extended care facility (stroke,
mobility, blindness, injury, etc.) and never really being able to
return home to PERSONALLY sort out YOUR things. "Imposing" that
task (chore!) on someone else -- and wondering what might not
be happening as YOU would have intended, had you been present to
"supervise" the activity]
I am only scanning in my collection of fiction books. Sorting
them should be relatively easy, although my daughter is also
a reader, so she might have a problem sorting out the ones she
wants to keep.
On 7/9/2024 6:41 PM, Don Y wrote:
I've watched many friends/neighbors moved into assisted care
(or worse, "memory care") facilities. Leaving their "stuff"
and "home" behind is very traumatic for them. Esp as they
often have delayed that transition to a point where adjusting
to a new environment (new friends, etc.) is exceedingly
difficult.
I'm not keen on finding myself (or SWMBO after my demise) in
a similarly traumatic "adjustment". To that end, I can afford
to rid myself of dead trees, paper financial/business records,
test equipment, etc.
"What do I *need* this for, at this point in my life?"
YMMV. But don't underestimate the impact it will have on
those around you!
My position is different from those you mentioned. My
daughter lives in a rented house, while I live mortgage
free. 20 years ago when my brother died I made a vow
not to collect 'stuff'.
I have been through the house
several times trying to get rid of 'stuff'.
It is of
course a losing battle, but when I die I will not leave
huge lots of stuff cluttering up the house.
My daughter's
main problem in that regard is deciding how to merge
her furnishings into my house. Hopefully she will be
able to just make the cut and then call the Salvation
Army to take away what she doesn't need.
And she has,
unfortunately, just been through that experience. Her
boy friend died and she had to separate his stuff from
her stuff and get it appropriately dispersed.
So her big problem will be sorting my library, and she
will be happy to have a lot of the books. Sorting them
will be a chore, but not one that, hopefully, will
call out a lot of memories.
Which doesn't mean that she won't be distressed by my
passing, it just means that I will try to leave as
little for her to do as I can.
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