• I Get Linked In "The Fossil Forum" Regarding An Ammonite From Californi

    From Inyo@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jul 28 14:23:33 2023
    So there I am minding my business, perusing the pages of The Fossil
    Forum when I happen to chance upon a thread about an ammonite the author
    says had been gifted to him from somebody who claimed that the extinct cephalopod came from California. See the thread at The Fossil Forum over
    at
    https://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/135305-real-or-concrete/
    . It is a rather nice robust ammonite, indeed--around a full foot in
    diameter.

    A thread participant then Googled ammonites in California and came up
    with my page pertaining to Union Wash over at https://inyo.coffeecup.com/site/uw/unionwash.html (Ammonoids At Union
    Wash, California),where the lower Triassic Union Wash Formation in the
    shadows of Mount Whitney--highest peak in the contiguous United
    States--yields beaucoup ceratites type ammonoids (goniatites and
    ceratites sutured cephalopods are necessarily called ammonoids--only
    those with ammonoites sutures can be correctly called ammonites, and
    those kinds lived during the Jurassic and Cretaceous Periods, of course)
    that lived roughly 248 million years ago, "only" three to four million
    years after the end time Permian extinction event of about 252 million
    years ago.

    But then another thread contributor pointed out that the mystery
    cephalopd in question did not possess ceratitic sutures; it contains an ammonites-style suture, and so that rightly determines is proper
    taxonomic placement: it is thus a more "modern" ammonite of Jurassic to Cretaceous geologic age. That poster also assigned it to the genus
    Lytoceras.

    So let's presume that that poster is correct. I have no definitive
    evidence to claim otherwise: the suture pattern speaks for itself.
    Therefore, one is obliged to inquire Where in California could one find
    a Lytoceras cephalopodic ammonite?

    Possibilites: Lytoceras has been reported from several localities in California, in actual fact.

    From USGS Bulletin 133 by Timothy William Stanton, published in
    1895--The Fauna of the Knoxville Beds:

    "Well-preserved specimens nearly all show the crenulated costse
    described by Whiteaves in A. crenocostatus, which he afterwards referred
    to L. batesi. The peristome is greatly thickened and reflected in this
    species. This feature is indicated by the periodic constrictions on the internal cast, and it is well shown by a fragment of a large specimen
    recently collected in the Lower Horsetown beds, near Paskenta, Cal. (See
    PI. XIII, figs. 9 and 10.) The whorl from which this fragment came was
    nearly 4 inches in diameter, and the whole shell must have exceeded a
    foot in> diameter. The shell near the aperture has a thickness of 3 millimeters, which increases suddenly to 5 or 6 millimeters, and this
    thickened portion is abruptly reflected, first inward and then outward,
    so that a cross section of it has a narrow U-shape. The trumpet-shaped
    aperture of Lytoceras immane as described and figured by Neumayr 1 is of
    the same type, but somewhat more simple, as the peristome is only
    slightly reflected and expanded outward. Locality and position. The
    fragment showing part of the aperture is from the Lower Horsetown beds,
    about 3 miles north of Paskenta, The other figured specimen is from the
    Upper Knoxville beds, on Wilcox's ranch, about 3 miles farther north. It
    is not uncommon at this horizon. Fragmentary specimens of the same or a
    closely related species have been collected much lower in the Knoxville
    beds, on south fork of Elder Creek, associated with Aucella piocMi. It
    is most abundant
    and best preserved, however, in the Lower Horsetown beds, in Shasta
    .and Tehama counties, from the north fork of Cottonwood Creek south-
    ward; also at Eiddles, Oreg.; in Queen Charlotte Islands, etc.
    Gabb also reports it from two localities in the Chico group, but this
    is probably an error in identification, as it has not been found in any
    of the later collections from those beds, and there are other forms
    there that, when not well preserved, might be mistaken for it.
    (National Museum Catalogue, Mesozoic Invertebrate Fossils, 23085
    and 23080.)"

    From that same publication: "The reported occurrence of
    Lytoceras batesi at Benicia and south of Mount Diablo has been cited
    as evidence that the Horsetown beds are probably present there, but
    Gabb distinctly credits these specimens to the Chico."

    Lytoceras batesi also reported from Cow Creek. From Bulletin 133: "Some
    of the exposures in the central portion.of the area, as on the
    banks of Cow Creek just below the bridge at Kiddles and in the first
    low ridge east of the creek, a short distance above the town, are very fossiliferous, yielding a number of species characteristic of the Horse-
    town beds, with some new forms that have not been seen elsewhere."

    Lytoceras batesi near Lowerys--from USGS Bulletin 133: Locality and
    position. "Two miles north of Lowerys, Tehama County,
    Cal., from the upper layers of the Knoxville beds, where it is
    associated with Aucella crassicollis, Lytoceras batesi, etc. "The
    specimen was insideof a fragment of the last-named species."

    Lytoceras saturnale reported from the Paskenta Quadrangle. From USGS Professional Paper 647-A, 1969: Structural and Stratigraphic
    Significance of the Buchia Zones in the Colyear Springs-Paskenta Area California:

    "Mollusks other than Buchia in the Buchia keyser-
    lingi zone of the Paskenta quadrangle include the
    following :

    "Anomia senescens Stanton (USGS Mesozoic loc. 1087)
    Niicula gabU Stanton (USGS Mesozoic loc. 1088)
    Astartc trapez&ldalis Stanton (USGS Mesozoic loc. 1088)
    Twbo? trilineatus Stanton (USGS Mesozoic loc. 1088)
    Wiumerosus Stanton (USGS Mesozoic loc. 1088)
    Belemnites impresses Gabb (USGS Mesozoic loc. 1088)
    Lytoceras saturnale Anderson (USGS Mesozoic loc. 1087)
    Crioceratites sp. (USGS Mesozoic loc. 1009, equals 1087)
    Thurmanniceras jenkinsi (Anderson) (USGS Mesozoic Iocs.
    1088, 1091, M1575, M1578, M1579, M3058, MSOS^, UC
    B-5085) stippi (Anderson) (USGS Mesozoic Iocs. 1091, H1580,
    M3059, M3084"

    Possible occurrence of Lytoceras in Alameda County in the Cretaceous
    Horsetown Formation, as well--from an older popular fossil locality page
    whose URL I will not provide.

    Note: From here on out: All quoted sections to end of this post came
    from The Geological Society of America Memoir 71, "Upper Cretaceous Of
    The Pacific Coast" by F. M. Anderson, originally published on June 6, 1958,

    Lytoceras coalingense found near the upper Cretaceous Moreno Formation,
    near the Panoche Hills, western side of the Great Central Valley.

    "Immediately north of the Panoche Hills, at locality 28306 (C. A. S .),
    Taff, Hanna, and Cross collected a small but diagnostic fauna near the
    center containing the following species: Lytoceras ( G audryceras)
    coalingense n. sp. Anchura sp. E xiteloceras vancouverense (Gabb) M acrocallista aff. M . cordata Waring."

    Lytoceras kayei reported from: "Various accounts of this species have
    been found in the literature of the West Coast. The writer (1902, p.
    83) mentioned its occurrence in the Upper Cretaceous near Mount Diablo,
    Contra Costa County, but its exact locality and are not known."

    Lytoceras alamdense: "An example of this species (C. A. S. Type Coll.)
    found at locality 1343 (C. A. S.) near the head of Pleasants’ Valley,
    Yolo County."

    Lytoceras tenuiliratum: "A well-preserved, but broken specimen of a
    lytoceratid species, closely related to the form figured and described
    by Yabe, was found by Popenoe and Findley at locality 1347 (С. I. T.)
    on Roaring River, Shasta County, above the junction of this stream with
    the North fork of Cottonwood Creek."

    Lytoceras (Gaudryceras) texanum: "The holotype was found at locality 465
    (C. A. S.), Texas Springs, 3 miles east of old Horsetown"

    Lytoceras (Gaudryceras) coalingense: "Two incomplete examples were found
    12 miles northwest of Coalinga, Fresno County, associated with
    Parapachydiscus catarinae Anderson and Hanna, Neokotôceras fresnoense Anderson, Baculites occidentalis Meek, and many other species."

    Lytoceras (Gaudryceras) aureum: "The species is represented by a single
    example found by Allan Bennison, locality 29656 (C. A. S.), in coarse
    pebbly sandstone along canyon 1 mile south of Ortigalita Creek."

    Lytoceras (Gaudryceras) birkhauseri: "The holotype was found by Max
    Birkhauser at locality 2361 (C. A. S.), about 2 milesnorthwest of “Oil City”, or 11 miles northwesterly from Coalinga, Fresno County. The same species has been recognized by the writer at locality 2362 (C. A. S.),
    on Los Gatos Creek, 8 miles northwest of Coalinga."

    Lytoceras (Tetragonites) henleyense: "Original example of the present
    species, referred by the writer to Stoliczka’s form, was found at
    Henley, Siskiyou County."

    Lytoceras (Tetragonites) jacksonense: "The original description of this
    species was based upon a single example in which the umbilical pit was
    not fully exposed, and its suture lines were not clearly shown. The holo
    type No. 44 (C. A. S. Type Coll.) was recovered from the ashes of the
    San Francisco fire, and other examples were later obtained at its type locality. A larger and more complete example was later found by the
    writer near Little Cow Creek, Shasta County, a few miles east of Frazier Corners."

    Lytoceras (Tetragonites) kernense: "Three examples of this species were
    found by G. D. Hanna at locality 1552 (C. A. S.) on the south border of
    the Antelope Valley, northern Kern County."

    Lytoceras (Tetragonites) epigonum: "Numerous examples of this species,
    two hypotypes of which are figured here (PI. 65, figs. 4, 5), and of
    closely related forms have been found by С. C. Church and by the writer, associated with Parapachydiscus catarinae Anderson and Hanna and with
    many other species at locality 2362 (C. A. S.), on Los Gatos Creek.
    Others have been collected by Church on the north slope of Joaquin
    Ridge, 11 miles north of Coalinga, Fresno County." Note: I actually have
    two specimens of Lytoceras epigonum figured at my page Dinosaur- Age
    Plants At Del Puerto Canyon, California over at https://inyo4.coffeecup.com/morenofossils/morenofossils.html .

    Note--there are several additional examples of genus Lytoceras ammonotes reported from California in Geological Society of America Memoir 71 by
    F. M. Anderson, for those interested in seeking out the citations.

    OK--if you've followed this post thus far, you're probably wondering
    what I've concluded: I'm of the mind that the mystery extinct
    cephalopodic ammonite photographed at The Fossil Forum page is probably Lytoceras batesi; only that genus-species has been described as
    approaching a full foot in diameter in California.

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to Inyo on Mon Jul 31 05:22:04 2023
    On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 5:23:28 PM UTC-4, Inyo wrote:
    So there I am minding my business, perusing the pages of The Fossil
    Forum when I happen to chance upon a thread about an ammonite the author says had been gifted to him from somebody who claimed that the extinct cephalopod came from California. See the thread at The Fossil Forum over
    at
    https://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/135305-real-or-concrete/
    . It is a rather nice robust ammonite, indeed--around a full foot in diameter.

    A thread participant then Googled ammonites in California and came up
    with my page pertaining to Union Wash over at https://inyo.coffeecup.com/site/uw/unionwash.html (Ammonoids At Union
    Wash, California),where the lower Triassic Union Wash Formation in the shadows of Mount Whitney--highest peak in the contiguous United States--yields beaucoup ceratites type ammonoids (goniatites and
    ceratites sutured cephalopods are necessarily called ammonoids--only
    those with ammonoites sutures can be correctly called ammonites, and
    those kinds lived during the Jurassic and Cretaceous Periods, of course) that lived roughly 248 million years ago, "only" three to four million
    years after the end time Permian extinction event of about 252 million
    years ago.

    But then another thread contributor pointed out that the mystery
    cephalopd in question did not possess ceratitic sutures; it contains an ammonites-style suture, and so that rightly determines is proper
    taxonomic placement: it is thus a more "modern" ammonite of Jurassic to Cretaceous geologic age. That poster also assigned it to the genus Lytoceras.

    So let's presume that that poster is correct. I have no definitive
    evidence to claim otherwise: the suture pattern speaks for itself. Therefore, one is obliged to inquire Where in California could one find
    a Lytoceras cephalopodic ammonite?

    Possibilites: Lytoceras has been reported from several localities in California, in actual fact.

    From USGS Bulletin 133 by Timothy William Stanton, published in
    1895--The Fauna of the Knoxville Beds:

    "Well-preserved specimens nearly all show the crenulated costse
    described by Whiteaves in A. crenocostatus, which he afterwards referred
    to L. batesi. The peristome is greatly thickened and reflected in this species. This feature is indicated by the periodic constrictions on the internal cast, and it is well shown by a fragment of a large specimen recently collected in the Lower Horsetown beds, near Paskenta, Cal. (See
    PI. XIII, figs. 9 and 10.) The whorl from which this fragment came was nearly 4 inches in diameter, and the whole shell must have exceeded a
    foot in> diameter. The shell near the aperture has a thickness of 3 millimeters, which increases suddenly to 5 or 6 millimeters, and this thickened portion is abruptly reflected, first inward and then outward,
    so that a cross section of it has a narrow U-shape. The trumpet-shaped aperture of Lytoceras immane as described and figured by Neumayr 1 is of
    the same type, but somewhat more simple, as the peristome is only
    slightly reflected and expanded outward. Locality and position. The
    fragment showing part of the aperture is from the Lower Horsetown beds, about 3 miles north of Paskenta, The other figured specimen is from the Upper Knoxville beds, on Wilcox's ranch, about 3 miles farther north. It
    is not uncommon at this horizon. Fragmentary specimens of the same or a closely related species have been collected much lower in the Knoxville beds, on south fork of Elder Creek, associated with Aucella piocMi. It
    is most abundant
    and best preserved, however, in the Lower Horsetown beds, in Shasta
    .and Tehama counties, from the north fork of Cottonwood Creek south-
    ward; also at Eiddles, Oreg.; in Queen Charlotte Islands, etc.
    Gabb also reports it from two localities in the Chico group, but this
    is probably an error in identification, as it has not been found in any
    of the later collections from those beds, and there are other forms
    there that, when not well preserved, might be mistaken for it.
    (National Museum Catalogue, Mesozoic Invertebrate Fossils, 23085
    and 23080.)"

    From that same publication: "The reported occurrence of
    Lytoceras batesi at Benicia and south of Mount Diablo has been cited
    as evidence that the Horsetown beds are probably present there, but
    Gabb distinctly credits these specimens to the Chico."

    Lytoceras batesi also reported from Cow Creek. From Bulletin 133: "Some
    of the exposures in the central portion.of the area, as on the
    banks of Cow Creek just below the bridge at Kiddles and in the first
    low ridge east of the creek, a short distance above the town, are very fossiliferous, yielding a number of species characteristic of the Horse- town beds, with some new forms that have not been seen elsewhere."

    Lytoceras batesi near Lowerys--from USGS Bulletin 133: Locality and position. "Two miles north of Lowerys, Tehama County,
    Cal., from the upper layers of the Knoxville beds, where it is
    associated with Aucella crassicollis, Lytoceras batesi, etc. "The
    specimen was insideof a fragment of the last-named species."

    Lytoceras saturnale reported from the Paskenta Quadrangle. From USGS Professional Paper 647-A, 1969: Structural and Stratigraphic
    Significance of the Buchia Zones in the Colyear Springs-Paskenta Area California:

    "Mollusks other than Buchia in the Buchia keyser-
    lingi zone of the Paskenta quadrangle include the
    following :

    "Anomia senescens Stanton (USGS Mesozoic loc. 1087)
    Niicula gabU Stanton (USGS Mesozoic loc. 1088)
    Astartc trapez&ldalis Stanton (USGS Mesozoic loc. 1088)
    Twbo? trilineatus Stanton (USGS Mesozoic loc. 1088)
    Wiumerosus Stanton (USGS Mesozoic loc. 1088)
    Belemnites impresses Gabb (USGS Mesozoic loc. 1088)
    Lytoceras saturnale Anderson (USGS Mesozoic loc. 1087)
    Crioceratites sp. (USGS Mesozoic loc. 1009, equals 1087)
    Thurmanniceras jenkinsi (Anderson) (USGS Mesozoic Iocs.
    1088, 1091, M1575, M1578, M1579, M3058, MSOS^, UC
    B-5085) stippi (Anderson) (USGS Mesozoic Iocs. 1091, H1580,
    M3059, M3084"

    Possible occurrence of Lytoceras in Alameda County in the Cretaceous Horsetown Formation, as well--from an older popular fossil locality page whose URL I will not provide.

    Note: From here on out: All quoted sections to end of this post came
    from The Geological Society of America Memoir 71, "Upper Cretaceous Of
    The Pacific Coast" by F. M. Anderson, originally published on June 6, 1958,

    Lytoceras coalingense found near the upper Cretaceous Moreno Formation,
    near the Panoche Hills, western side of the Great Central Valley.

    "Immediately north of the Panoche Hills, at locality 28306 (C. A. S .), Taff, Hanna, and Cross collected a small but diagnostic fauna near the center containing the following species: Lytoceras ( G audryceras) coalingense n. sp. Anchura sp. E xiteloceras vancouverense (Gabb) M acrocallista aff. M . cordata Waring."

    Lytoceras kayei reported from: "Various accounts of this species have
    been found in the literature of the West Coast. The writer (1902, p.
    83) mentioned its occurrence in the Upper Cretaceous near Mount Diablo, Contra Costa County, but its exact locality and are not known."

    Lytoceras alamdense: "An example of this species (C. A. S. Type Coll.)
    found at locality 1343 (C. A. S.) near the head of Pleasants’ Valley,
    Yolo County."

    Lytoceras tenuiliratum: "A well-preserved, but broken specimen of a lytoceratid species, closely related to the form figured and described
    by Yabe, was found by Popenoe and Findley at locality 1347 (С. I. T.)
    on Roaring River, Shasta County, above the junction of this stream with
    the North fork of Cottonwood Creek."

    Lytoceras (Gaudryceras) texanum: "The holotype was found at locality 465
    (C. A. S.), Texas Springs, 3 miles east of old Horsetown"

    Lytoceras (Gaudryceras) coalingense: "Two incomplete examples were found
    12 miles northwest of Coalinga, Fresno County, associated with Parapachydiscus catarinae Anderson and Hanna, Neokotôceras fresnoense Anderson, Baculites occidentalis Meek, and many other species."

    Lytoceras (Gaudryceras) aureum: "The species is represented by a single example found by Allan Bennison, locality 29656 (C. A. S.), in coarse
    pebbly sandstone along canyon 1 mile south of Ortigalita Creek."

    Lytoceras (Gaudryceras) birkhauseri: "The holotype was found by Max Birkhauser at locality 2361 (C. A. S.), about 2 milesnorthwest of “Oil City”, or 11 miles northwesterly from Coalinga, Fresno County. The same species has been recognized by the writer at locality 2362 (C. A. S.),
    on Los Gatos Creek, 8 miles northwest of Coalinga."

    Lytoceras (Tetragonites) henleyense: "Original example of the present species, referred by the writer to Stoliczka’s form, was found at
    Henley, Siskiyou County."

    Lytoceras (Tetragonites) jacksonense: "The original description of this species was based upon a single example in which the umbilical pit was
    not fully exposed, and its suture lines were not clearly shown. The holo type No. 44 (C. A. S. Type Coll.) was recovered from the ashes of the
    San Francisco fire, and other examples were later obtained at its type locality. A larger and more complete example was later found by the
    writer near Little Cow Creek, Shasta County, a few miles east of Frazier Corners."

    Lytoceras (Tetragonites) kernense: "Three examples of this species were found by G. D. Hanna at locality 1552 (C. A. S.) on the south border of
    the Antelope Valley, northern Kern County."

    Lytoceras (Tetragonites) epigonum: "Numerous examples of this species,
    two hypotypes of which are figured here (PI. 65, figs. 4, 5), and of
    closely related forms have been found by С. C. Church and by the writer, associated with Parapachydiscus catarinae Anderson and Hanna and with
    many other species at locality 2362 (C. A. S.), on Los Gatos Creek.
    Others have been collected by Church on the north slope of Joaquin
    Ridge, 11 miles north of Coalinga, Fresno County." Note: I actually have
    two specimens of Lytoceras epigonum figured at my page Dinosaur- Age
    Plants At Del Puerto Canyon, California over at https://inyo4.coffeecup.com/morenofossils/morenofossils.html .

    Note--there are several additional examples of genus Lytoceras ammonotes reported from California in Geological Society of America Memoir 71 by
    F. M. Anderson, for those interested in seeking out the citations.

    It's interesting to see you write about this topic, Inyo. I've thoroughly enjoyed your periodic accounts of field trips and I hope to see another
    one before too long.

    OK--if you've followed this post thus far, you're probably wondering
    what I've concluded: I'm of the mind that the mystery extinct
    cephalopodic ammonite photographed at The Fossil Forum page is probably Lytoceras batesi; only that genus-species has been described as
    approaching a full foot in diameter in California.

    I thought I'd followed it pretty well, but I don't understand why you went
    to such lengths. I don't think anyone who has posted to sci.bio.paleontology since 2009, not even Pandora, could render an intelligent opinion that adds
    to your conclusion.

    I am of the mind that you are the person "without a backstory"
    who gave the specimen to the one who had it. Correct?


    Peter Nyikos
    Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
    University of South Carolina
    http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

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