The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
I guess just flapping-powered flight.
Archae, bacteria, viruses, fungal spores, plant pollen have also taken to the skies, many long before the animal kingdom even got started. I've read that they initiate formation of precipitation in the sky, rather than dust.
On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 17:41:25 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote: >>> The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
I guess just flapping-powered flight.
Archae, bacteria, viruses, fungal spores, plant pollen have also taken to the skies, many long before the animal kingdom even got started. I've read that they initiate formation of precipitation in the sky, rather than dust.
Yes, flight refers to powered flight. Anything small enough
automatically drifts in the breeze or parachutes down, no evolution
required.
On 10/30/2022 10:27 PM, jillery wrote:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 17:41:25 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote: >>>> The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
I guess just flapping-powered flight.
Archae, bacteria, viruses, fungal spores, plant pollen have also taken to the skies, many long before the animal kingdom even got started. I've read that they initiate formation of precipitation in the sky, rather than dust.
Yes, flight refers to powered flight. Anything small enough
automatically drifts in the breeze or parachutes down, no evolution
required.
statistical assumption/confidence ?
On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 22:29:30 -0400, Dale <[email protected]> wrote:
On 10/30/2022 10:27 PM, jillery wrote:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 17:41:25 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote: >>>>> The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
I guess just flapping-powered flight.
Archae, bacteria, viruses, fungal spores, plant pollen have also taken to the skies, many long before the animal kingdom even got started. I've read that they initiate formation of precipitation in the sky, rather than dust.
Yes, flight refers to powered flight. Anything small enough
automatically drifts in the breeze or parachutes down, no evolution
required.
statistical assumption/confidence ?
I have no idea what the above statement is supposed to mean.
On 10/31/2022 12:34 AM, jillery wrote:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 22:29:30 -0400, Dale <[email protected]> wrote:
On 10/30/2022 10:27 PM, jillery wrote:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 17:41:25 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote: >>>>>> The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth: >>>>>>
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
I guess just flapping-powered flight.
Archae, bacteria, viruses, fungal spores, plant pollen have also taken to the skies, many long before the animal kingdom even got started. I've read that they initiate formation of precipitation in the sky, rather than dust.
Yes, flight refers to powered flight. Anything small enough
automatically drifts in the breeze or parachutes down, no evolution
required.
statistical assumption/confidence ?
I have no idea what the above statement is supposed to mean.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_assumption
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_inference
as opposed to ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_(statistics)
???????
On 11/2/2022 4:00 AM, jillery wrote:
On Tue, 1 Nov 2022 20:06:39 -0400, Dale <[email protected]> wrote:
On 10/31/2022 12:34 AM, jillery wrote:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 22:29:30 -0400, Dale <[email protected]> wrote:
On 10/30/2022 10:27 PM, jillery wrote:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 17:41:25 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which >>>>>>>> discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth: >>>>>>>>
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
I guess just flapping-powered flight.
Archae, bacteria, viruses, fungal spores, plant pollen have also taken to the skies, many long before the animal kingdom even got started. I've read that they initiate formation of precipitation in the sky, rather than dust.
Yes, flight refers to powered flight. Anything small enough
automatically drifts in the breeze or parachutes down, no evolution >>>>>> required.
statistical assumption/confidence ?
I have no idea what the above statement is supposed to mean.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_assumption
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_inference
as opposed to ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_(statistics)
???????
Specify how your cites explain your statement.
I am just getting further into statistics, feel free to correct ...
"population" descriptions require statistical inference applied to a >"sampling"?
"sampling" alone cannot describe a "population"?
sometimes decisions have to be made?
otherwise I will reserve the opportunity to challenge descriptions
On Tue, 1 Nov 2022 20:06:39 -0400, Dale <[email protected]> wrote:
On 10/31/2022 12:34 AM, jillery wrote:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 22:29:30 -0400, Dale <[email protected]> wrote:
On 10/30/2022 10:27 PM, jillery wrote:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 17:41:25 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which >>>>>>> discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth: >>>>>>>
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
I guess just flapping-powered flight.
Archae, bacteria, viruses, fungal spores, plant pollen have also taken to the skies, many long before the animal kingdom even got started. I've read that they initiate formation of precipitation in the sky, rather than dust.
Yes, flight refers to powered flight. Anything small enough
automatically drifts in the breeze or parachutes down, no evolution
required.
statistical assumption/confidence ?
I have no idea what the above statement is supposed to mean.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_assumption
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_inference
as opposed to ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_(statistics)
???????
Specify how your cites explain your statement.
On Wed, 2 Nov 2022 11:30:59 -0400, Dale <[email protected]> wrote:
On 11/2/2022 4:00 AM, jillery wrote:
On Tue, 1 Nov 2022 20:06:39 -0400, Dale <[email protected]> wrote:
On 10/31/2022 12:34 AM, jillery wrote:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 22:29:30 -0400, Dale <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>
On 10/30/2022 10:27 PM, jillery wrote:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 17:41:25 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which >>>>>>>>> discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth: >>>>>>>>>
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
I guess just flapping-powered flight.
Archae, bacteria, viruses, fungal spores, plant pollen have also taken to the skies, many long before the animal kingdom even got started. I've read that they initiate formation of precipitation in the sky, rather than dust.
Yes, flight refers to powered flight. Anything small enough
automatically drifts in the breeze or parachutes down, no evolution >>>>>>> required.
statistical assumption/confidence ?
I have no idea what the above statement is supposed to mean.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_assumption
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_inference
as opposed to ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_(statistics)
???????
Specify how your cites explain your statement.
I am just getting further into statistics, feel free to correct ...
"population" descriptions require statistical inference applied to a
"sampling"?
"sampling" alone cannot describe a "population"?
sometimes decisions have to be made?
otherwise I will reserve the opportunity to challenge descriptions
Feel free to take this opportunity to post a coherent challenge.
The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
Excerpt:
It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi were also
This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
PS here is a link to the 2015 article about Yi qi in NatureResearch: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
Excerpt:
It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi were also
This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur. This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
Excerpt:
It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi were also
may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered at its outer end.<snip to get to your words, Daud>This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur.Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown in slow motion (8x slow),
This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail and bird-like general impression
when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is a "styliform element":
"Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the membrane,
...animal an appearance similar to modern bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This would have given the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?
[1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia article maximizes the batlike appearance
of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite close together) with the second digit,
which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice membrane structure between it and the third
and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
[2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present in fossils. In the above scheme,
the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
Excerpt:
It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi were
membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered at its outer end.<snip to get to your words, Daud>This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur.Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown in slow motion (8x slow),
This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail and bird-like general impression
when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is a "styliform element":
"Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the
the animal an appearance similar to modern bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."...
The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This would have given
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
[1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia article maximizes the batlike appearance
of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite close together) with the second digit,
which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice membrane structure between it and the third
and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
[2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present in fossils. In the above scheme,Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?
the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
Excerpt:
It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi were
membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered at its outer end.<snip to get to your words, Daud>This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur.Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown in slow motion (8x slow),
This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail and bird-like general impression
when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is a "styliform element":
"Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the
the animal an appearance similar to modern bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."...
The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This would have given
:~}https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
[1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia article maximizes the batlike appearance
of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite close together) with the second digit,
which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice membrane structure between it and the third
and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs boggles the mind.[2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present in fossils. In the above scheme,Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?
the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
Excerpt:
It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi were also
This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
-Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
PS here is a link to the 2015 article about Yi qi in NatureResearch: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wingsYi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur. This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
Excerpt:
It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi were
membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered at its outer end.<snip to get to your words, Daud>This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur.Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown in slow motion (8x slow),
This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail and bird-like general impression
when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is a "styliform element":
"Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the
the animal an appearance similar to modern bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."...
The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This would have given
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
[1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia article maximizes the batlike appearance
of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite close together) with the second digit,
which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice membrane structure between it and the third
and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs boggles the mind.[2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present in fossils. In the above scheme,Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?
the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
Excerpt:
It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi were
membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered at its outer end.<snip to get to your words, Daud>This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur.Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown in slow motion (8x slow),
This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail and bird-like general impression
when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is a "styliform element":
"Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the
given the animal an appearance similar to modern bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."...
The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This would have
alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal, frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
[1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia article maximizes the batlike appearance
of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite close together) with the second digit,
which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice membrane structure between it and the third
and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest,Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs boggles the mind.[2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present in fossils. In the above scheme,Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?
the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
Excerpt:
It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi
membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered at its outer end.<snip to get to your words, Daud>This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur.Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown in slow motion (8x slow),
This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail and bird-like general impression
when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is a "styliform element":
"Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the
given the animal an appearance similar to modern bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."...
The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This would have
alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal, frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
[1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia article maximizes the batlike appearance
of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite close together) with the second digit,
which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice membrane structure between it and the third
and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest,Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs boggles the mind.[2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present in fossils. In the above scheme,Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?
the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.
Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
look parsimonious to me.
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
Excerpt:
It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi
membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered at its outer end.<snip to get to your words, Daud>This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur.Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown in slow motion (8x slow),
This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail and bird-like general impression
when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is a "styliform element":
"Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the
given the animal an appearance similar to modern bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."...
The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This would have
chest, alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal, frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
[1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia article maximizes the batlike appearance
of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite close together) with the second digit,
which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice membrane structure between it and the third
and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broaderPrimates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs boggles the mind.[2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present in fossils. In the above scheme,Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?
the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
and hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features. Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.Actually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineering sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both gibbons
Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
look parsimonious to me.
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 11:57:44 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:qi were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
Excerpt:
It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi
the membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered at its outer end.<snip to get to your words, Daud>This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur.Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown in slow motion (8x slow),
This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail and bird-like general impression
when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is a "styliform element":
"Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support
have given the animal an appearance similar to modern bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."...
The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This would
chest, alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal, frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
[1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia article maximizes the batlike appearance
of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite close together) with the second digit,
which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice membrane structure between it and the third
and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broaderPrimates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs boggles the mind.[2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present in fossils. In the above scheme,Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?
the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
and hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features. Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.Actually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineering sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both gibbons
Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
look parsimonious to me.
Bipedalism is not synonymous with brachiation. "Similar facial features"?
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 11:57:44 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote: >> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video whichIt's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
Excerpt:
It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi
the membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered at its outer end.<snip to get to your words, Daud>
This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur.Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown in slow motion (8x slow),
This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail and bird-like general impression
when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is a "styliform element":
"Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support
have given the animal an appearance similar to modern bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."...
The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This would
chest, alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal, frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broaderPrimates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs boggles the mind.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?
[1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia article maximizes the batlike appearance
of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite close together) with the second digit,
which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice membrane structure between it and the third
and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
[2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present in fossils. In the above scheme,
the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
and hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features. Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.Actually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineering sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both gibbons
Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
look parsimonious to me.
Bipedalism is not synonymous with brachiation. "Similar facial features"?
On Sat, 19 Nov 2022 14:04:13 -0800 (PST), erik simpsonqi were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 11:57:44 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote: >> > On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video whichIt's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
Excerpt:
It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi
the membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered at its outer end.<snip to get to your words, Daud>
This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur.Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown in slow motion (8x slow),
This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail and bird-like general impression
when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is a "styliform element":
"Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support
have given the animal an appearance similar to modern bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."...
The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This would
chest, alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal, frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broaderPrimates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs boggles the mind.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?
[1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia article maximizes the batlike appearance
of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite close together) with the second digit,
which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice membrane structure between it and the third
and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
[2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present in fossils. In the above scheme,
the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
gibbons and hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features. Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.Actually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineering sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both
Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
look parsimonious to me.
It started with Pandora at SAP, just kind of drifted here.Bipedalism is not synonymous with brachiation. "Similar facial features"? Daud Deden is using the same argument in two separate topics. I givehim credit for consistency.
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
Excerpt:
It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi were
membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered at its outer end.<snip to get to your words, Daud>This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur.Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown in slow motion (8x slow),
This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail and bird-like general impression
when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is a "styliform element":
"Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the
given the animal an appearance similar to modern bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."...
The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This would have
alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal, frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
[1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia article maximizes the batlike appearance
of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite close together) with the second digit,
which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice membrane structure between it and the third
and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest,Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs boggles the mind.[2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present in fossils. In the above scheme,Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?
the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 2:01:37 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:chest, alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal, frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?
On Sat, 19 Nov 2022 14:04:13 -0800 (PST), erik simpson <[email protected]> wrote:
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 11:57:44 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:
Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broaderThanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs boggles the mind.
gibbons and hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features. Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.Actually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineering sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both
Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
look parsimonious to me.
Bipedalism is not synonymous with brachiation. "Similar facial features"? Daud Deden is using the same argument in two separate topics. I givehim credit for consistency.
It started with Pandora at SAP, just kind of drifted here.
On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 10:23:40 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:arboreal lifestyle for the new species but not for other closely related species from the same locality, implying a possible case of ecological niche partitioning. The discovery adds to the known array of pterosaur adaptations and the history of
Fortunately, the following link opens a new door to the development of flight in some pterosaurs:
Current Biology, VOLUME 31, ISSUE 11, P2429-2436.E7, JUNE 07, 2021:
"A new darwinopteran pterosaur reveals arborealism and an opposed thumb" https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(21)00369-9?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0960982221003699%3Fshowall%3Dtrue
Excerpt:
"The new species exhibits the oldest record of palmar (or true) opposition of the pollex, which is unprecedented for pterosaurs and represents a sophisticated adaptation related to arboreal locomotion. Principal-coordinate analyses suggest an
IIRC you showed interest in several of these themes earlier. It's a detailed research paper, open access.
The critter has been named *Kunpengopterus.* The genus has been known since 2010, but this paper
is about a new species, *K. antipollicatus*. [As you will immediately recognize, this refers to the true opposability of the "thumb".]
Really amazing how much can be found out about these animals and their ecologies. The reversed thumbs show that grasping fully evolved, allowing not just compressional perching but tensional perching in forest canopy's stiff lateral winds. In hominoids,slow brachiation required long strong opposed thumbs, while fast brachiation did not, as hook-like hands predominate where fast swinging is advantageous, as in gibbons & spider monkeys.
This is a twofer. First comes a direct reply to Daud's post immediately below,broader chest, alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal, frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?
then a reply to a post by Daud on another thread:
On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 5:13:05 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 2:01:37 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
On Sat, 19 Nov 2022 14:04:13 -0800 (PST), erik simpson <[email protected]> wrote:
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 11:57:44 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:
Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers,Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs boggles the mind.
gibbons and hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features. Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.Actually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineering sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both
Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
look parsimonious to me.
arboreal lifestyle for the new species but not for other closely related species from the same locality, implying a possible case of ecological niche partitioning. The discovery adds to the known array of pterosaur adaptations and the history ofBipedalism is not synonymous with brachiation. "Similar facial features"?Daud Deden is using the same argument in two separate topics. I give
him credit for consistency.
It started with Pandora at SAP, just kind of drifted here.The following started in SBP, and I hope you find it relevant here:
Re: Today's News on Pterosaur Origins
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 6:49:07 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 10:23:40 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
Fortunately, the following link opens a new door to the development of flight in some pterosaurs:
Current Biology, VOLUME 31, ISSUE 11, P2429-2436.E7, JUNE 07, 2021:
"A new darwinopteran pterosaur reveals arborealism and an opposed thumb" https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(21)00369-9?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0960982221003699%3Fshowall%3Dtrue
Excerpt:
"The new species exhibits the oldest record of palmar (or true) opposition of the pollex, which is unprecedented for pterosaurs and represents a sophisticated adaptation related to arboreal locomotion. Principal-coordinate analyses suggest an
IIRC you showed interest in several of these themes earlier. It's a detailed research paper, open access.
The critter has been named *Kunpengopterus.* The genus has been known since 2010, but this paper
is about a new species, *K. antipollicatus*. [As you will immediately recognize, this refers to the true opposability of the "thumb".]
hominoids, slow brachiation required long strong opposed thumbs, while fast brachiation did not, as hook-like hands predominate where fast swinging is advantageous, as in gibbons & spider monkeys.Really amazing how much can be found out about these animals and their ecologies. The reversed thumbs show that grasping fully evolved, allowing not just compressional perching but tensional perching in forest canopy's stiff lateral winds. In
How would you like to -- as jillery might put it -- expand this comment to the same argument on a third separate topic?I don't understand your request.
If not, I'll pick up the discussion on the original thread later this week. Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina in Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 8:20:27 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:broader chest, alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal, frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?
This is a twofer. First comes a direct reply to Daud's post immediately below,
then a reply to a post by Daud on another thread:
On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 5:13:05 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 2:01:37 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
On Sat, 19 Nov 2022 14:04:13 -0800 (PST), erik simpson <[email protected]> wrote:
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 11:57:44 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:
Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers,Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs boggles the mind.
gibbons and hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features. Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.Actually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineering sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both
Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
look parsimonious to me.
arboreal lifestyle for the new species but not for other closely related species from the same locality, implying a possible case of ecological niche partitioning. The discovery adds to the known array of pterosaur adaptations and the history ofBipedalism is not synonymous with brachiation. "Similar facial features"?Daud Deden is using the same argument in two separate topics. I give him credit for consistency.
It started with Pandora at SAP, just kind of drifted here.The following started in SBP, and I hope you find it relevant here:
Re: Today's News on Pterosaur Origins
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 6:49:07 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 10:23:40 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
Fortunately, the following link opens a new door to the development of flight in some pterosaurs:
Current Biology, VOLUME 31, ISSUE 11, P2429-2436.E7, JUNE 07, 2021:
"A new darwinopteran pterosaur reveals arborealism and an opposed thumb"
https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(21)00369-9?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0960982221003699%3Fshowall%3Dtrue
Excerpt:
"The new species exhibits the oldest record of palmar (or true) opposition of the pollex, which is unprecedented for pterosaurs and represents a sophisticated adaptation related to arboreal locomotion. Principal-coordinate analyses suggest an
IIRC you showed interest in several of these themes earlier. It's a detailed research paper, open access.
The critter has been named *Kunpengopterus.* The genus has been known since 2010, but this paper
is about a new species, *K. antipollicatus*. [As you will immediately recognize, this refers to the true opposability of the "thumb".]
hominoids, slow brachiation required long strong opposed thumbs, while fast brachiation did not, as hook-like hands predominate where fast swinging is advantageous, as in gibbons & spider monkeys.Really amazing how much can be found out about these animals and their ecologies. The reversed thumbs show that grasping fully evolved, allowing not just compressional perching but tensional perching in forest canopy's stiff lateral winds. In
How would you like to -- as jillery might put it -- expand this comment to the same argument on a third separate topic?
If not, I'll pick up the discussion on the original thread later this week.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina in Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
I don't understand your request.
I will note that at least some specimens of Archaeopteryx have what look like
flight feathers on the rear legs, though less prominently so than in Microraptor.
[email protected] wrote:
The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
I dunno. Doesn't seem very informative.
Personally, I had always held that powered flight was a selective
adaptation for living creatures being swept up by the wind.
So, insects: They're small, they get blown around... this is very useful... helps them to spread... radiate... but powered flight is a way for them
to continue that advantageous activity even when there's no wind.
when there is wind, powered flight is a very useful means to prevent
you from being dropped in the middle of a lake or out to sea...
So, yeah, the cursorial model, says I.
My biggest question about pterosaurs is where are the flightless species
and what did they have for genitalia?
Questions. My biggest questions (plural) are where are the flightless
species and what did they have for genitals...
On 2/1/24 7:17 AM, Daud Deden wrote:
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 2:57:44 PM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote:
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote: >>>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8,
[email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson
wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8,
[email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5,
[email protected] wrote:
On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5,
[email protected] wrote:
On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4,
[email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4,
Is this a joke? Hoatzins don't "brachiate" like gibbons because theyActually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineeringBipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different pathsActually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if thePrimates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well,Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like.Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown >>>>>>>> in slow motion (8x slow),[email protected] wrote:Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of >>>>>>>>> any dinosaur.
The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video >>>>>>>>>>> whichIt's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in >>>>>>>>>> the thread
discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on >>>>>>>>>>> Earth:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its
deficiencies so
close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at >>>>>>>>>> least four separate times."
There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi >>>>>>>>>> qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
Excerpt:
It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like >>>>>>>>>> other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated >>>>>>>>>> third finger, that appears to have helped to support a
membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi >>>>>>>>>> were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the
wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is >>>>>>>>>> unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in >>>>>>>>>> wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings >>>>>>>>>> might have looked like.
It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it? >>>>>>>> <snip to get to your words, Daud>
This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, >>>>>>>>> with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail >>>>>>>> and bird-like general impression
when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify >>>>>>>> it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is >>>>>>>> a "styliform element":
"Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone
known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger >>>>>>>> and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb
bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the
membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a
calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered >>>>>>>> at its outer end.
...
The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the
elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly
connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing
membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This
would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern
bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the >>>>>>>> fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
[1]
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia
article maximizes the batlike appearance
of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex
("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite >>>>>>>> close together) with the second digit,
which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice >>>>>>>> membrane structure between it and the third
and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone
makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
[2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present >>>>>>>> in fossils. In the above scheme,
the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, >>>>>>>> and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between
twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg.
hominoids, spider monkeys)?
dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs
boggles the mind.
forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be
selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few
favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest,
alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal,
frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider
monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?
and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.
Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into
something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
look parsimonious to me.
sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not
that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but
functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both gibbons and
hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already
have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features.
Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.
Then there's "beakiation" among parrots.
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/parrots-move-branches-beakiation-animals-physics
Atelid spider monkeys use their prehensile tail during their
pseudo-brachiation across branches, parrots use their beaks. Hoatzins
could be bred for that as well, to assist forelimb arboreal locomotion.
don't have to. Why would anyone try to breed some that could? Why not
a breeding program (well-funded, of course) to breed humans with
prehensile noses? After all, they work well for elephants. I don't see any difficulty in principle, except perhaps finding people who would cooperate.
That's definitely a cute video, but I doubt the macaw will teach the
monkey how to fly.
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