• Sci.Astro.research. No evidence that Cassini tested for refraction

    From Lou@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 20 02:23:17 2022
    Here is one of your repeated (false) claims Cassini did test for refraction that you are not letting me refute....
    | The complete fractional frequency shift is the sum of three parts:
    | the non-dispersive part $y_{nd}(t)$ (which includes the gravitational
    | signal) and the time dependent plasma contributions $y_\wedge(t)$ and
    | $y_\vee(t)$, proportional to the columnar electron content along the
    | beam in the up- and the downlink, respectively. With three independent
    | observables, the three quantities $y_\wedge(t)$, $y_\vee(t)$ and
    | $y_{nd}(t)$ are separately determined.
    Note particularly that last clause: "the three quantities $y_\wedge(t)$, $y_\vee(t)$ and $y_{nd}(t)$ are separately determined".
    -- jt]]


    (For starters you supply no pg# and paper source. I cannot find
    that quote in the slack.edu bertotti paper.).

    Nor does your quote refer to any comparison between the 3 "parts"
    for *frequency shift*. Please tell me. If you think your above quote
    proves that Cassini tested two seperate frequency bands for refraction...exactly what part of that above quote actually confirms
    this?

    And please tell me why you think section 3.1 of the bertotti paper,
    that I only cited in the last post you rejected, does not combine
    the two seperate frequencies observed by cassini into one because
    of intense variability in the corona density.

    You will find it hard to answer because section 3.1 says exactly
    that both frequencies were combined because of intense variability
    in corona density. Which means of course...that no comparison is
    possible between the time delay of the two frequencies

    [[Mod. note --
    1. My quote was from the supplemental materials for the Bertotti et al paper, figure caption for figure S1 (note Nature calls this the figure "legend"). You can find this linked from the nature.com website https://www.nature.com/articles/nature01997#Sec3
    Look for the section "Supplementary Informat

    The article you cite is paywalled. Only a short abstract, 2 figures and a rather minimally informative “legend” text. Of which I have quoted
    fully below. Obviously you know it doesn’t have any evidence that Cassini tested for refraction ie different time delays between frequencies.
    Why not? Because Bertotti himself admits in his 1993 paper that at
    no point is refraction between frequencies tested for. How could
    it be? He combines the two observed Ka and X frequencies into one
    mixed band for analysis.

    ”Fig. S1. Effectiveness of the plasma calibration scheme. From top
    down, the signal stability (Allan deviation at an integration time t =1000) >of the three observables X­X¯, X­Ka¯, Ka­Ka¯ and the non-dispersive part
    ynd, computed using the triple link for each passage. The complete >fractional frequency shift is the sum of three parts: the non-dispersive
    part ynd(t) (which includes the gravitational signal) and the time
    dependent plasma contributions y↑(t) and y↓(t), proportional to the >columnar electron content along the beam in the up- and the downlink, >respectively. With three independent observables, the three quantities
    y↑(t), y↓(t) and ynd(t) are separately determined.”


    2. Radio propagation through a plasma is known to be frequency-dependent. The passage I quoted states explicitly that observed
    (frequency-dependent) frequency shift (for the round-trip Earth to
    Cassini and back to Earth) is the sum of a frequency-independent
    (a.k.a "non-dispersive") part and two frequency-dependent parts
    (one for the Earth-to-Cassini uplink, one for the Cassini-back-to-Earth downlink), and that the multifrequency data was sufficient to -- and
    the authors did -- calculate all three of these parts.

    Yes exactly. Calculated, not measured. As Bertotti has confirmed in his
    1993 paper: Astron. Astrophys. 269, 608–616 1993
    (A paper referenced in both the arxiv and Nature 2003 papers.)
    Three way link yes, but still only 2 frequencies. Just smaller error margins. And the Ka and X bands are then combined by calculation.
    ( As a “mixed optical” path as described in his 1993 paper. )
    Which is then compared to *hypothetical* time delays predicted by GR
    theory and *assumptions* of electron column properties.
    Bertotti in his closed loop 2003 arxiv paper also does this and also
    admits the data from Ka is discontinuous and the corona is too variable
    to analyse as two seperate frequencies.
    Truth is the sci.astro.research moderators including Phil H. know
    that Bertotti did not test Cassini data for time delays between frequencies. But are too dishonest to admit it.
    Hence they ignore Bertottis 1993 paper and instead supply a link to a paywalled paper which they haven’t even been able to read themselves.

    wanted. But the quoted passage also explicitly says that the other two
    parts "proportional to the columnar electron content along the beam"
    were also calculated, and I think these are the refractive-index measurements you're asking for.

    Assumptions are not observations.
    Notice the 2 dispersive and 1 non dispersive parts are not measured seperately. They are ‘Calculations’ based on theoretical assumptions.
    And combined to see if they fit the observed time delay from the combined
    Ka and X frequency bands. As described in the various 4 sections of the
    1993 paper cited above.
    Never has an in situ measurement of the corona density and its refractive
    index ever been made.


    The goal of the Bertotti et al
    multi-frequency analysis technique was to obtain a time series of the frequency-independent quanitty $y_{nd}(t)$, which could then be input
    into further analyses to test GR. The construction of $y_{nd}(t)$ was designed to try to ancel out the effects of the solar plasma, and
    figures S1 and S2 show that that was in large measure successfully accomplished. Since the subject of this paper was the GR test using
    the plasma-effects-cancelled-out quantity $y_{nd}(t)$, it's not too surprising that the authors didn't explicitly show plots of the plasma delays (what they refer to $y_\wedge(t)$ and $y_\vee(t)$).
    -- jt]]
    It’s not too surprising because the authors didn’t never did analyse
    Ka and X band data seperately. As your quote confirms. Contrary to
    numerous claims that Cassini data rules out refraction only as the
    source of observed time delays.

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