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  • BBC: Neutrinos; we were utterly wrong. Isn't that great?

    From RichA@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 27 15:06:08 2021
    https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-59051779

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  • From Jos Bergervoet@21:1/5 to RichA on Thu Oct 28 10:42:11 2021
    On 21/10/28 12:06 AM, RichA wrote:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-59051779


    They did not find a particle that is not part of the standard model?

    Why is that so great?! It sounds more like an attempt to safe face..

    --
    Jos

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  • From Chris L Peterson@21:1/5 to All on Thu Oct 28 11:00:49 2021
    On Wed, 27 Oct 2021 15:06:08 -0700 (PDT), RichA <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-59051779

    This does not remotely suggest that we were "utterly wrong". It
    suggests that one possible theory involving one little corner of the
    Standard Model is wrong.

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  • From StarDust@21:1/5 to RichA on Thu Oct 28 14:03:56 2021
    On Wednesday, October 27, 2021 at 3:06:10 PM UTC-7, RichA wrote:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-59051779

    So what?
    We're gonna die anyway?
    😪

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  • From Quadibloc@21:1/5 to Jos Bergervoet on Thu Oct 28 15:54:39 2021
    On Thursday, October 28, 2021 at 2:44:03 AM UTC-6, Jos Bergervoet wrote:

    They did not find a particle that is not part of the standard model?

    Why is that so great?! It sounds more like an attempt to safe face..

    Actually, I thought the BBC story did a good job of explaining what was
    going on here.

    In a much earlier experiment, when neutrinos were generated, electron
    neutrinos far outnumbered muon neutrinos and tau neutrinos. While this
    seems like what one would expect, since electrons are far more common
    than exotic particles like muons or tauons, in order for this to happen,
    some modification to the existing theories was needed.

    The simplest one would be to postulate "sterile neutrinos", but this new experiment shows that, no, this can't be the answer, and so we need to
    look for a more difficult answer that takes us farther outside the Standard Model.

    John Savard

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  • From RichA@21:1/5 to Quadibloc on Thu Oct 28 16:44:38 2021
    On Thursday, 28 October 2021 at 18:54:41 UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
    On Thursday, October 28, 2021 at 2:44:03 AM UTC-6, Jos Bergervoet wrote:

    They did not find a particle that is not part of the standard model?

    Why is that so great?! It sounds more like an attempt to safe face..
    Actually, I thought the BBC story did a good job of explaining what was
    going on here.

    In a much earlier experiment, when neutrinos were generated, electron neutrinos far outnumbered muon neutrinos and tau neutrinos. While this
    seems like what one would expect, since electrons are far more common
    than exotic particles like muons or tauons, in order for this to happen,
    some modification to the existing theories was needed.

    The simplest one would be to postulate "sterile neutrinos", but this new experiment shows that, no, this can't be the answer, and so we need to
    look for a more difficult answer that takes us farther outside the Standard Model.

    John Savard

    The only theory I hope pans out is string theory.

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  • From palsing@21:1/5 to RichA on Thu Oct 28 21:49:20 2021
    On Thursday, October 28, 2021 at 4:44:39 PM UTC-7, RichA wrote:

    The only theory I hope pans out is string theory.

    It seems to me that there is a severe lack of evidence in support of string theory... so far.

    I am no expert in these matter, and it may be revived, but I wouldn't hold my breath...

    https://tinyurl.com/6xv9jced

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  • From Jos Bergervoet@21:1/5 to Quadibloc on Fri Oct 29 10:15:16 2021
    On 21/10/29 12:54 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
    On Thursday, October 28, 2021 at 2:44:03 AM UTC-6, Jos Bergervoet wrote:

    They did not find a particle that is not part of the standard model?

    Why is that so great?! It sounds more like an attempt to safe face..

    Actually, I thought the BBC story did a good job of explaining what was
    going on here.

    My complaint was more about the title of this thread (but the title
    of the BBC "heralds new chapter" has the same triumphant ring!) As
    for the explanation, it does indeed show that this is just one step
    in eliminating possible extensions of our theory.

    ...
    some modification to the existing theories was needed.

    Yes, we see that more often..

    The simplest one would be to postulate "sterile neutrinos", but this new experiment shows that, no, this can't be the answer,

    So, in trying to solve a problem, the simplest solution now did not
    work. Why is that so great? Why a "new chapter"? It could just be the
    first sentence: "Tried changing the spark plugs, but that didn't help."

    and so we need to
    look for a more difficult answer that takes us farther outside the Standard Model.

    That is true of course. Completely ruling them out is more than just
    not finding them. But then, at the start of the article "The search
    failed to find the particle" should have been "ruled out the existence".
    The BBC does not write that, and also further on: "no hint" of the
    sterile neutrino and "the non-detection" does not make the claim of
    ruling out the existence.

    (And apart from that, actually finding the sterile neutrino's would
    probably still be considered more "great" by the Nobel committee..)

    --
    Jos

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  • From Chris L Peterson@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Oct 29 07:50:46 2021
    On Thu, 28 Oct 2021 15:54:39 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    The simplest one would be to postulate "sterile neutrinos", but this new >experiment shows that, no, this can't be the answer, and so we need to
    look for a more difficult answer that takes us farther outside the Standard >Model.

    I wouldn't put it that way. The Standard Model is incomplete, that's
    all. Which was already accepted. This doesn't take us "outside" the
    model, it provides additional information for continuing to fill in
    the holes. Certainly, the answer will lie within the Standard Model!

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  • From Gary Harnagel@21:1/5 to palsing on Sun Oct 31 06:57:53 2021
    On Thursday, October 28, 2021 at 10:49:21 PM UTC-6, palsing wrote:
    On Thursday, October 28, 2021 at 4:44:39 PM UTC-7, RichA wrote:

    The only theory I hope pans out is string theory.
    It seems to me that there is a severe lack of evidence in support of string theory... so far.

    I am no expert in these matter, and it may be revived, but I wouldn't hold my breath...

    IMHO, string theory has had two great things going for it:

    (1) There can be no such thing as point particles in the real world. The initial one-
    dimensional string is also nonsensical for the same reason. So the present idea of
    a string is a 3-dimensional object whose diameter is much smaller than its length.
    That makes sense.

    (2) String theory accommodates a spin-two particle; i.e., the graviton.

    Any theory of everything must have those factors. String theory has a third characteristic:
    Duality. It may be a siren song, but it has a very satisfying melody.

    https://tinyurl.com/6xv9jced

    Interesting. The report of its demise may be premature.

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