• Re: What is a =?UTF-8?B?ImN1bHQiPw==?=

    From Ulf_Kutzner@21:1/5 to jerryfriedman on Sat Jun 1 09:28:31 2024
    XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.english.usage, alt.religion
    XPost: alt.religion.christianity, alt.languages.english

    jerryfriedman wrote:

    Ross Clark wrote:

    On 1/06/2024 1:54 a.m., jerryfriedman wrote:
    Steve Hayes wrote:

    On Thu, 30 May 2024 01:18:02 +0300, Anton Shepelev
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Steve Hayes:

    A cult is something that people *do*.

    A cult is not something that people or a group of people
    *are*.

    I have no problem with either meaning, and consider the
    second one as bearing negative connotations in colluquial
    speech.  Britannica online concurs:

      usually small group devoted to a person, idea, or
      philosophy.  The term /cult/ is often applied to a
      religious movement that exists in some degree of
      tension with the dominant religious or cultural
      inclination of a society.  In recent years the word
      cult has been most commonly used as a pejorative term
      for a religious group that falls outside the
      mainstream and, by implication, engages in
      questionable activities. Many new religions are
      controversially labeled as cults.

    as do many dictionaries.  I also believe this is an old
    meaning used by good writers.

    It is because of that usage that the academics want to ban all use of
    the term.

    But my Concise Oxford Dictionary has

    cult n. System of religious worship; devotion, homage to person or
    thing (the ~ of).

    And I believe that there is no simple synonym to convey that meaning,
    and that it should therefore not be banned from academic usage when
    used in that sense, because it is not intrinsically pejorative, as it
    tends to be when used in the other sense.
    ..

    Well, I'd think academics should be able to handle that.  But
    "the veneration of St. George" seems to be a possibility.

    I'd think academics would also want the usually derogatory
    "cult of personality".

    I have opined here before that whoever thus translated Russian культа >> личности made two bad choices, since both "cult" and "personality" have

    more prominent senses in English which are inappropriate.
    "Worship/veneration of an individual" would have been more accurate,
    but, I guess, less snappy.

    The phrase already existed in English, according to the OED. I wonder whether the Russian phrase was translated from English.

    cult of personality: a collective obsession with, or intense,
    excessive, or uncritical admiration for, a particular public figure,
    esp. a political leader; the instigation of such an obsession; cf. personality cult n.

    Frequently associated with totalitarian leaders (esp. Stalin) and
    their idealized portrayal by means of propaganda, manipulation of
    the mass media, etc.

    1898
    The Oriental voyage of his spectacular Majesty, William II.,
    gives the German newspapers plenty of opportunity for speculation,
    and incidentally offers many examples of the peculiar cult of
    personality indulged in by the German people.
    New York Times 6 November 19/7

    1920
    In politics, as in the army and boxing, the cult of personality
    is in the ascendant.
    Observer 26 September 12/2

    1933
    Hanfstaengl..coached [Hitler]..in the introduction of
    high-pressure American advertising methods. The cult of
    personality until then was almost unknown in German political
    life.
    Billings (Montana) Gazette 5 March 15/3

    1953
    Such incorrect methods of work..‘often result in one-sided,
    poorly-devised, and..erroneous decisions,’ the editorial [in
    the official journal of the Cominform] added. It branded the
    cult of personality as ‘harmful and intolerable’ and contrary
    to ‘Marx Leninism’.
    Times 8 September 6/6

    as far as Stalin is concerned, I would like to add the quasi-religious
    aspect.

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personenkult#/media/Datei:A_German_civilian_looks_at_a_large_poster_portrait_of_Stalin_on_the_Unter-den-Linden_in_Berlin,_3_June_1945._BU8572.jpg
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalinismus#/media/Datei:JStalin_Secretary_general_CCCP_1942.jpg

    For religious exaltation related to an emperor (who wasn't a dictator),
    see also
    https://www.jstor.org/stable/25108483?seq=6

    Regards, ULF

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  • From Ulf_Kutzner@21:1/5 to jerryfriedman on Thu Jun 6 13:51:18 2024
    XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.english.usage, alt.religion
    XPost: alt.religion.christianity, alt.languages.english

    jerryfriedman wrote:

    Ross Clark wrote:

    On 1/06/2024 11:22 p.m., Ross Clark wrote:
    On 1/06/2024 10:31 a.m., jerryfriedman wrote:
    Ross Clark wrote:

    On 1/06/2024 1:54 a.m., jerryfriedman wrote:

    [academics disapproving of "cult" in any sense because of its
    derogatory meaning]

    I'd think academics would also want the usually derogatory
    "cult of personality".

    I have opined here before that whoever thus translated Russian культа
    личности made two bad choices, since both "cult" and "personality" have

    more prominent senses in English which are inappropriate.
    "Worship/veneration of an individual" would have been more accurate, >>>>> but, I guess, less snappy.

    The phrase already existed in English, according to the OED.  I wonder >>>> whether the Russian phrase was translated from English.

    cult of personality: a collective obsession with, or intense,
    excessive, or uncritical admiration for, a particular public figure,
    esp. a political leader; the instigation of such an obsession; cf.
    personality cult n.

    Frequently associated with totalitarian leaders (esp. Stalin) and
    their idealized portrayal by means of propaganda, manipulation of
    the mass media, etc.

    1898
    The Oriental voyage of his spectacular Majesty, William II.,
    gives the German newspapers plenty of opportunity for speculation,
    and incidentally offers many examples of the peculiar cult of
    personality indulged in by the German people.
    New York Times 6 November 19/7

    1920
    In politics, as in the army and boxing, the cult of personality
    is in the ascendant.
    Observer 26 September 12/2

    1933
    Hanfstaengl..coached [Hitler]..in the introduction of
    high-pressure American advertising methods. The cult of
    personality until then was almost unknown in German political
    life.
    Billings (Montana) Gazette 5 March 15/3

    1953
    Such incorrect methods of work..‘often result in one-sided,
    poorly-devised, and..erroneous decisions,’ the editorial [in
    the official journal of the Cominform] added. It branded the
    cult of personality as ‘harmful and intolerable’ and contrary
    to ‘Marx Leninism’.
    Times 8 September 6/6


    Well, well. I had always assumed it was a Russian coinage in
    retrospective critique of Stalin, perhaps from Khrushchev's famous 1956

    speech. I guess that just reflects the period when I first heard it.


    OED doesn't suggest a remoter origin, and the 1898 quote looks as if
    it's already a known concept. Could be from some 19th century (German?)

    political philosopher.

    I wondered too and searched Google Books for "culte de personalité",
    but I didn't know what it would be in German and didn't think to
    look it up.

    Things are complicated here...

    I still think the prevalent senses of the two words create a somewhat
    distorted understanding of the phrase among English speakers.

    Ha! How's this?

    "The term "cult of personality" likely appeared in English around
    1800–1850, along with the French and German versions of the term. It
    initially had no political connotations, but was instead closely
    related
    to the Romanticist "cult of genius". The first known political use of
    the phrase appeared in a letter from Karl Marx to German political
    worker Wilhelm Blos dated to November 10, 1877:

    Neither of us cares a straw of popularity. Let me cite one proof
    of

    this: such was my aversion to the personality cult [orig.
    Personenkultus] that at the time of the International, when plagued by
    numerous moves ... to accord me public honor, I never allowed one of
    these to enter the domain of publicity ...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_personality

    Their reference is to K.Heller & J.Plamper, Personality Cults in
    Stalinism/Personenkulte im Stalinismus (Göttingen, 2004).

    Marx, of all people. That clarifies a lot, though I wonder what makes
    it likely that the term appeared in English before 1850.

    Looking up "Personenkultus" at GB also gives "Personenkult", and I see
    a few hits in the 1870s, a sudden trickle in 1888--and an isolated
    example that from 1814 (really), referring to the theater.

    See also
    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Kultus#Noun .

    Regards, ULF

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