• =?UTF-8?Q?New_analysis_of_Sch=c3=b6ningen_materials?=

    From Primum Sapienti@21:1/5 to All on Sun May 12 23:42:00 2024
    https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/04/science/archaeology-neanderthals-wood.html

    ...
    Dr. Terberger was team leader of a study published
    last month in the Proceedings of the National
    Academy of Sciences that provided the first
    comprehensive report on the wooden objects
    excavated from 1994 to 2008 in the peat of an
    open-pit coal mine near Schöningen, in northern
    Germany.
    ...
    In the mid-1990s, the discovery of three of the
    spears — along with stone tools and the butchered
    remains of 10 wild horses — upended prevailing
    ideas about the intelligence, social interaction
    and toolmaking skills of our extinct human
    ancestors.
    ...
    The new study, which began in 2021, examined
    more than 700 pieces of wood from the Spear
    Horizon, many of which had spent the previous
    two decades stored in chilled tubs of distilled
    water to simulate the waterlogged sediment that
    had protected them from decay. With the aid of
    3-D microscopy and micro-CT scanners that
    highlighted signs of wear or cut marks,
    researchers identified 187 pieces of wood that
    showed evidence of splitting, scraping or
    abrasion.
    ...
    Besides weapons, the assemblage included 35
    pointed and rounded artifacts that were most
    likely used in domestic activities such as
    punching holes and smoothing hides.
    ...



    https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2320484121
    The wooden artifacts from Schöningen’s Spear
    Horizon and their place in human evolution

    Significance
    Wooden tools rarely survive in the Paleolithic
    record limiting our understanding of
    Pleistocene hunter-gather lifeways. With 187
    wooden artifacts, Schöningen 13 II-4 provides
    the largest assemblage worldwide introduced
    here for the first time in full. Wooden tools
    include at least 10 spears and seven throwing
    sticks used in hunting next to 35 newly
    recognized pointed and rounded split woods
    likely used in domestic activities. The study
    provides unique insights into Pleistocene
    woodworking techniques, tool design, use,
    re-working, and human behavior connected to
    wooden artifacts. Human evolution studies
    show increasing brain size and technological
    complexity that coincide with human group
    hunting over the last 2 Ma. Schöningen’s
    wooden hunting weapons exemplify the
    interplay of technological complexity, human
    behavior, and human evolution.

    Abstract
    Ethnographic records show that wooden tools
    played a pivotal role in the daily lives of
    hunter-gatherers including food procurement
    tools used in hunting (e.g., spears, throwing
    sticks) and gathering (e.g. digging sticks,
    bark peelers), as well as, domestic tools
    (e.g., handles, vessels). However, wood
    rarely survives in the archeological record,
    especially in Pleistocene contexts and
    knowledge of prehistoric hunter-gatherer
    lifeways is strongly biased by the
    survivorship of more resilient materials such
    as lithics and bones. Consequently, very few
    Paleolithic sites have produced wooden
    artifacts and among them, the site of
    Schöningen stands out due to its number and
    variety of wooden tools. The recovery of
    complete wooden spears and throwing sticks
    at this 300,000-y-old site (MIS 9) led to a
    paradigm shift in the hunter vs. scavenger
    debate. For the first time and almost 30 y
    after their discovery, this study introduces
    the complete wooden assemblage from Schöningen
    13 II-4 known as the Spear Horizon. In total,
    187 wooden artifacts could be identified from
    the Spear Horizon demonstrating a broad
    spectrum of wood-working techniques, including
    the splitting technique. A minimum of 20
    hunting weapons is now recognized and two
    newly identified artifact types comprise 35
    tools made on split woods, which were likely
    used in domestic activities. Schöningen 13
    II-4 represents the largest Pleistocene
    wooden artifact assemblage worldwide and
    demonstrates the key role woodworking had in
    human evolution. Finally, our results
    considerably change the interpretation of the
    Pleistocene lakeshore site of Schöningen.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to Primum Sapienti on Mon May 13 13:31:19 2024
    On 13.5.2024. 7:42, Primum Sapienti wrote:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/04/science/archaeology-neanderthals-wood.html

    ...
    Dr. Terberger was team leader of a study published
    last month in the Proceedings of the National
    Academy of Sciences that provided the first
    comprehensive report on the wooden objects
    excavated from 1994 to 2008 in the peat of an
    open-pit coal mine near Schöningen, in northern
    Germany.
    ...
    In the mid-1990s, the discovery of three of the
    spears — along with stone tools and the butchered
    remains of 10 wild horses — upended prevailing
    ideas about the intelligence, social interaction
    and toolmaking skills of our extinct human
    ancestors.
    ...
    The new study, which began in 2021, examined
    more than 700 pieces of wood from the Spear
    Horizon, many of which had spent the previous
    two decades stored in chilled tubs of distilled
    water to simulate the waterlogged sediment that
    had protected them from decay. With the aid of
    3-D microscopy and micro-CT scanners that
    highlighted signs of wear or cut marks,
    researchers identified 187 pieces of wood that
    showed evidence of splitting, scraping or
    abrasion.
    ...
    Besides weapons, the assemblage included 35
    pointed and rounded artifacts that were most
    likely used in domestic activities such as
    punching holes and smoothing hides.
    ...



    https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2320484121
    The wooden artifacts from Schöningen’s Spear
    Horizon and their place in human evolution

    Significance
    Wooden tools rarely survive in the Paleolithic
    record limiting our understanding of
    Pleistocene hunter-gather lifeways. With 187
    wooden artifacts, Schöningen 13 II-4 provides
    the largest assemblage worldwide introduced
    here for the first time in full. Wooden tools
    include at least 10 spears and seven throwing
    sticks used in hunting next to 35 newly
    recognized pointed and rounded split woods
    likely used in domestic activities. The study
    provides unique insights into Pleistocene
    woodworking techniques, tool design, use,
    re-working, and human behavior connected to
    wooden artifacts. Human evolution studies
    show increasing brain size and technological
    complexity that coincide with human group
    hunting over the last 2 Ma. Schöningen’s
    wooden hunting weapons exemplify the
    interplay of technological complexity, human
    behavior, and human evolution.

    Abstract
    Ethnographic records show that wooden tools
    played a pivotal role in the daily lives of
    hunter-gatherers including food procurement
    tools used in hunting (e.g., spears, throwing
    sticks) and gathering (e.g. digging sticks,
    bark peelers), as well as, domestic tools
    (e.g., handles, vessels). However, wood
    rarely survives in the archeological record,
    especially in Pleistocene contexts and
    knowledge of prehistoric hunter-gatherer
    lifeways is strongly biased by the
    survivorship of more resilient materials such
    as lithics and bones. Consequently, very few
    Paleolithic sites have produced wooden
    artifacts and among them, the site of
    Schöningen stands out due to its number and
    variety of wooden tools. The recovery of
    complete wooden spears and throwing sticks
    at this 300,000-y-old site (MIS 9) led to a
    paradigm shift in the hunter vs. scavenger
    debate. For the first time and almost 30 y
    after their discovery, this study introduces
    the complete wooden assemblage from Schöningen
    13 II-4 known as the Spear Horizon. In total,
    187 wooden artifacts could be identified from
    the Spear Horizon demonstrating a broad
    spectrum of wood-working techniques, including
    the splitting technique. A minimum of 20
    hunting weapons is now recognized and two
    newly identified artifact types comprise 35
    tools made on split woods, which were likely
    used in domestic activities. Schöningen 13
    II-4 represents the largest Pleistocene
    wooden artifact assemblage worldwide and
    demonstrates the key role woodworking had in
    human evolution. Finally, our results
    considerably change the interpretation of the
    Pleistocene lakeshore site of Schöningen.

    Instead of "Was the stone age actually a wood age?" the article on the
    first link should be called "Was the middle stone age actually a
    hematite age?".
    On the beginning of the first video you can see tools for wood carving:
    https://youtu.be/I3hJEAXw38I?si=jhTJMYCg43CAzJFQ&t=4
    In the second video you can see how you split wood: https://youtu.be/UJ4xANFIi8Y?si=glWyyoah_6WIh7BM

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Pandora@21:1/5 to All on Wed May 15 12:55:29 2024
    Op 13-05-2024 om 07:42 schreef Primum Sapienti:

    https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2320484121
    The wooden artifacts from Schöningen’s Spear
    Horizon and their place in human evolution

    Significance
    Wooden tools rarely survive in the Paleolithic
    record limiting our understanding of
    Pleistocene hunter-gather lifeways. With 187
    wooden artifacts, Schöningen 13 II-4 provides
    the largest assemblage worldwide introduced
    here for the first time in full. Wooden tools
    include at least 10 spears and seven throwing
    sticks used in hunting next to 35 newly
    recognized pointed and rounded split woods
    likely used in domestic activities. The study
    provides unique insights into Pleistocene
    woodworking techniques, tool design, use,
    re-working, and human behavior connected to
    wooden artifacts. Human evolution studies
    show increasing brain size and technological
    complexity that coincide with human group
    hunting over the last 2 Ma. Schöningen’s
    wooden hunting weapons exemplify the
    interplay of technological complexity, human
    behavior, and human evolution.

    Abstract
    Ethnographic records show that wooden tools
    played a pivotal role in the daily lives of
    hunter-gatherers including food procurement
    tools used in hunting (e.g., spears, throwing
    sticks) and gathering (e.g. digging sticks,
    bark peelers), as well as, domestic tools
    (e.g., handles, vessels). However, wood
    rarely survives in the archeological record,
    especially in Pleistocene contexts and
    knowledge of prehistoric hunter-gatherer
    lifeways is strongly biased by the
    survivorship of more resilient materials such
    as lithics and bones. Consequently, very few
    Paleolithic sites have produced wooden
    artifacts and among them, the site of
    Schöningen stands out due to its number and
    variety of wooden tools. The recovery of
    complete wooden spears and throwing sticks
    at this 300,000-y-old site (MIS 9) led to a
    paradigm shift in the hunter vs. scavenger
    debate. For the first time and almost 30 y
    after their discovery, this study introduces
    the complete wooden assemblage from Schöningen
    13 II-4 known as the Spear Horizon. In total,
    187 wooden artifacts could be identified from
    the Spear Horizon demonstrating a broad
    spectrum of wood-working techniques, including
    the splitting technique. A minimum of 20
    hunting weapons is now recognized and two
    newly identified artifact types comprise 35
    tools made on split woods, which were likely
    used in domestic activities. Schöningen 13
    II-4 represents the largest Pleistocene
    wooden artifact assemblage worldwide and
    demonstrates the key role woodworking had in
    human evolution. Finally, our results
    considerably change the interpretation of the
    Pleistocene lakeshore site of Schöningen.

    "Although in theory, spears could have been used for fishing, the large
    size of most of the spears makes use as fishing implements less likely
    and evidence of spear fishing or fish consumption is generally sparse at
    sites predating the Upper Paleolithic."

    Can someone forward that to the good Doctor?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to Pandora on Wed May 15 14:31:18 2024
    On 15.5.2024. 12:55, Pandora wrote:
    Op 13-05-2024 om 07:42 schreef Primum Sapienti:

    https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2320484121
    The wooden artifacts from Schöningen’s Spear
    Horizon and their place in human evolution

    Significance
    Wooden tools rarely survive in the Paleolithic
    record limiting our understanding of
    Pleistocene hunter-gather lifeways. With 187
    wooden artifacts, Schöningen 13 II-4 provides
    the largest assemblage worldwide introduced
    here for the first time in full. Wooden tools
    include at least 10 spears and seven throwing
    sticks used in hunting next to 35 newly
    recognized pointed and rounded split woods
    likely used in domestic activities. The study
    provides unique insights into Pleistocene
    woodworking techniques, tool design, use,
    re-working, and human behavior connected to
    wooden artifacts. Human evolution studies
    show increasing brain size and technological
    complexity that coincide with human group
    hunting over the last 2 Ma. Schöningen’s
    wooden hunting weapons exemplify the
    interplay of technological complexity, human
    behavior, and human evolution.

    Abstract
    Ethnographic records show that wooden tools
    played a pivotal role in the daily lives of
    hunter-gatherers including food procurement
    tools used in hunting (e.g., spears, throwing
    sticks) and gathering (e.g. digging sticks,
    bark peelers), as well as, domestic tools
    (e.g., handles, vessels). However, wood
    rarely survives in the archeological record,
    especially in Pleistocene contexts and
    knowledge of prehistoric hunter-gatherer
    lifeways is strongly biased by the
    survivorship of more resilient materials such
    as lithics and bones. Consequently, very few
    Paleolithic sites have produced wooden
    artifacts and among them, the site of
    Schöningen stands out due to its number and
    variety of wooden tools. The recovery of
    complete wooden spears and throwing sticks
    at this 300,000-y-old site (MIS 9) led to a
    paradigm shift in the hunter vs. scavenger
    debate. For the first time and almost 30 y
    after their discovery, this study introduces
    the complete wooden assemblage from Schöningen
    13 II-4 known as the Spear Horizon. In total,
    187 wooden artifacts could be identified from
    the Spear Horizon demonstrating a broad
    spectrum of wood-working techniques, including
    the splitting technique. A minimum of 20
    hunting weapons is now recognized and two
    newly identified artifact types comprise 35
    tools made on split woods, which were likely
    used in domestic activities. Schöningen 13
    II-4 represents the largest Pleistocene
    wooden artifact assemblage worldwide and
    demonstrates the key role woodworking had in
    human evolution. Finally, our results
    considerably change the interpretation of the
    Pleistocene lakeshore site of Schöningen.

    "Although in theory, spears could have been used for fishing, the large
    size of most of the spears makes use as fishing implements less likely
    and evidence of spear fishing or fish consumption is generally sparse at sites predating the Upper Paleolithic."

    Can someone forward that to the good Doctor?

    "Evidence is sparse". Anybody expects it to be abundant? What kind of
    evidence someone expects, what are the chances that this evidence
    survives? The fact that they are sparse isn't an argument against fish consumption. Upper paleolithic is period after 50 kya. Aborigines
    colonized Australia 65 kya, they made the largest stone age men made
    structures (or something), and those structures are extremely advanced fisheries, as far as I know.
    So, simple counting of an evidence number isn't enough. One should
    understand the context and the logic behind it. But, a lot of scientists
    are just simple people, so, what can you expect.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to erik simpson on Wed May 15 19:35:29 2024
    On 15.5.2024. 17:52, erik simpson wrote:
    On 5/15/24 3:55 AM, Pandora wrote:
    Op 13-05-2024 om 07:42 schreef Primum Sapienti:

    https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2320484121
    The wooden artifacts from Schöningen’s Spear
    Horizon and their place in human evolution

    Significance
    Wooden tools rarely survive in the Paleolithic
    record limiting our understanding of
    Pleistocene hunter-gather lifeways. With 187
    wooden artifacts, Schöningen 13 II-4 provides
    the largest assemblage worldwide introduced
    here for the first time in full. Wooden tools
    include at least 10 spears and seven throwing
    sticks used in hunting next to 35 newly
    recognized pointed and rounded split woods
    likely used in domestic activities. The study
    provides unique insights into Pleistocene
    woodworking techniques, tool design, use,
    re-working, and human behavior connected to
    wooden artifacts. Human evolution studies
    show increasing brain size and technological
    complexity that coincide with human group
    hunting over the last 2 Ma. Schöningen’s
    wooden hunting weapons exemplify the
    interplay of technological complexity, human
    behavior, and human evolution.

    Abstract
    Ethnographic records show that wooden tools
    played a pivotal role in the daily lives of
    hunter-gatherers including food procurement
    tools used in hunting (e.g., spears, throwing
    sticks) and gathering (e.g. digging sticks,
    bark peelers), as well as, domestic tools
    (e.g., handles, vessels). However, wood
    rarely survives in the archeological record,
    especially in Pleistocene contexts and
    knowledge of prehistoric hunter-gatherer
    lifeways is strongly biased by the
    survivorship of more resilient materials such
    as lithics and bones. Consequently, very few
    Paleolithic sites have produced wooden
    artifacts and among them, the site of
    Schöningen stands out due to its number and
    variety of wooden tools. The recovery of
    complete wooden spears and throwing sticks
    at this 300,000-y-old site (MIS 9) led to a
    paradigm shift in the hunter vs. scavenger
    debate. For the first time and almost 30 y
    after their discovery, this study introduces
    the complete wooden assemblage from Schöningen
    13 II-4 known as the Spear Horizon. In total,
    187 wooden artifacts could be identified from
    the Spear Horizon demonstrating a broad
    spectrum of wood-working techniques, including
    the splitting technique. A minimum of 20
    hunting weapons is now recognized and two
    newly identified artifact types comprise 35
    tools made on split woods, which were likely
    used in domestic activities. Schöningen 13
    II-4 represents the largest Pleistocene
    wooden artifact assemblage worldwide and
    demonstrates the key role woodworking had in
    human evolution. Finally, our results
    considerably change the interpretation of the
    Pleistocene lakeshore site of Schöningen.

    "Although in theory, spears could have been used for fishing, the
    large size of most of the spears makes use as fishing implements less
    likely and evidence of spear fishing or fish consumption is generally
    sparse at sites predating the Upper Paleolithic."

    Can someone forward that to the good Doctor?

    If you mean the good Doctor in Belgium, I suspect he'll have his usual reaction to the "complete imbeciles" involved in this.

    Instead he should kiss the feet of complete imbeciles, like you do?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Pandora@21:1/5 to All on Thu May 16 15:39:19 2024
    Op 15-05-2024 om 17:52 schreef erik simpson:

    On 5/15/24 3:55 AM, Pandora wrote:
    Op 13-05-2024 om 07:42 schreef Primum Sapienti:

    https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2320484121
    The wooden artifacts from Schöningen’s Spear
    Horizon and their place in human evolution

    Significance
    Wooden tools rarely survive in the Paleolithic
    record limiting our understanding of
    Pleistocene hunter-gather lifeways. With 187
    wooden artifacts, Schöningen 13 II-4 provides
    the largest assemblage worldwide introduced
    here for the first time in full. Wooden tools
    include at least 10 spears and seven throwing
    sticks used in hunting next to 35 newly
    recognized pointed and rounded split woods
    likely used in domestic activities. The study
    provides unique insights into Pleistocene
    woodworking techniques, tool design, use,
    re-working, and human behavior connected to
    wooden artifacts. Human evolution studies
    show increasing brain size and technological
    complexity that coincide with human group
    hunting over the last 2 Ma. Schöningen’s
    wooden hunting weapons exemplify the
    interplay of technological complexity, human
    behavior, and human evolution.

    Abstract
    Ethnographic records show that wooden tools
    played a pivotal role in the daily lives of
    hunter-gatherers including food procurement
    tools used in hunting (e.g., spears, throwing
    sticks) and gathering (e.g. digging sticks,
    bark peelers), as well as, domestic tools
    (e.g., handles, vessels). However, wood
    rarely survives in the archeological record,
    especially in Pleistocene contexts and
    knowledge of prehistoric hunter-gatherer
    lifeways is strongly biased by the
    survivorship of more resilient materials such
    as lithics and bones. Consequently, very few
    Paleolithic sites have produced wooden
    artifacts and among them, the site of
    Schöningen stands out due to its number and
    variety of wooden tools. The recovery of
    complete wooden spears and throwing sticks
    at this 300,000-y-old site (MIS 9) led to a
    paradigm shift in the hunter vs. scavenger
    debate. For the first time and almost 30 y
    after their discovery, this study introduces
    the complete wooden assemblage from Schöningen
    13 II-4 known as the Spear Horizon. In total,
    187 wooden artifacts could be identified from
    the Spear Horizon demonstrating a broad
    spectrum of wood-working techniques, including
    the splitting technique. A minimum of 20
    hunting weapons is now recognized and two
    newly identified artifact types comprise 35
    tools made on split woods, which were likely
    used in domestic activities. Schöningen 13
    II-4 represents the largest Pleistocene
    wooden artifact assemblage worldwide and
    demonstrates the key role woodworking had in
    human evolution. Finally, our results
    considerably change the interpretation of the
    Pleistocene lakeshore site of Schöningen.

    "Although in theory, spears could have been used for fishing, the
    large size of most of the spears makes use as fishing implements less
    likely and evidence of spear fishing or fish consumption is generally
    sparse at sites predating the Upper Paleolithic."

    Can someone forward that to the good Doctor?

    If you mean the good Doctor in Belgium, I suspect he'll have his usual reaction to the "complete imbeciles" involved in this.

    As you may have noticed, in his absence he can always count on his
    disciples.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to Pandora on Thu May 16 17:06:52 2024
    On 16.5.2024. 15:39, Pandora wrote:
    Op 15-05-2024 om 17:52 schreef erik simpson:

    On 5/15/24 3:55 AM, Pandora wrote:
    Op 13-05-2024 om 07:42 schreef Primum Sapienti:

    https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2320484121
    The wooden artifacts from Schöningen’s Spear
    Horizon and their place in human evolution

    Significance
    Wooden tools rarely survive in the Paleolithic
    record limiting our understanding of
    Pleistocene hunter-gather lifeways. With 187
    wooden artifacts, Schöningen 13 II-4 provides
    the largest assemblage worldwide introduced
    here for the first time in full. Wooden tools
    include at least 10 spears and seven throwing
    sticks used in hunting next to 35 newly
    recognized pointed and rounded split woods
    likely used in domestic activities. The study
    provides unique insights into Pleistocene
    woodworking techniques, tool design, use,
    re-working, and human behavior connected to
    wooden artifacts. Human evolution studies
    show increasing brain size and technological
    complexity that coincide with human group
    hunting over the last 2 Ma. Schöningen’s
    wooden hunting weapons exemplify the
    interplay of technological complexity, human
    behavior, and human evolution.

    Abstract
    Ethnographic records show that wooden tools
    played a pivotal role in the daily lives of
    hunter-gatherers including food procurement
    tools used in hunting (e.g., spears, throwing
    sticks) and gathering (e.g. digging sticks,
    bark peelers), as well as, domestic tools
    (e.g., handles, vessels). However, wood
    rarely survives in the archeological record,
    especially in Pleistocene contexts and
    knowledge of prehistoric hunter-gatherer
    lifeways is strongly biased by the
    survivorship of more resilient materials such
    as lithics and bones. Consequently, very few
    Paleolithic sites have produced wooden
    artifacts and among them, the site of
    Schöningen stands out due to its number and
    variety of wooden tools. The recovery of
    complete wooden spears and throwing sticks
    at this 300,000-y-old site (MIS 9) led to a
    paradigm shift in the hunter vs. scavenger
    debate. For the first time and almost 30 y
    after their discovery, this study introduces
    the complete wooden assemblage from Schöningen
    13 II-4 known as the Spear Horizon. In total,
    187 wooden artifacts could be identified from
    the Spear Horizon demonstrating a broad
    spectrum of wood-working techniques, including
    the splitting technique. A minimum of 20
    hunting weapons is now recognized and two
    newly identified artifact types comprise 35
    tools made on split woods, which were likely
    used in domestic activities. Schöningen 13
    II-4 represents the largest Pleistocene
    wooden artifact assemblage worldwide and
    demonstrates the key role woodworking had in
    human evolution. Finally, our results
    considerably change the interpretation of the
    Pleistocene lakeshore site of Schöningen.

    "Although in theory, spears could have been used for fishing, the
    large size of most of the spears makes use as fishing implements less
    likely and evidence of spear fishing or fish consumption is generally
    sparse at sites predating the Upper Paleolithic."

    Can someone forward that to the good Doctor?

    If you mean the good Doctor in Belgium, I suspect he'll have his usual
    reaction to the "complete imbeciles" involved in this.

    As you may have noticed, in his absence he can always count on his
    disciples.

    Well, it may surprise you, but this isn't a football match, there are
    no teams here, we should discuss things, not form alliances.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to JTEM on Fri May 17 06:31:43 2024
    On 17.5.2024. 0:02, JTEM wrote:
     Mario Petrinovic wrote:
             Well, it may surprise you, but this isn't a football match, >> there are no teams here, we should discuss things, not form alliances.

    That's not how academia works. If it doesn't have an immediate
    economic or military application, it's not science it's politics.

    The only "Reality" that matters is whether everyone really is
    in line with the status quo, or not.

    Yes, I agree. Only, it wasn't supposed to be that way. But hey, it all
    depends on the intelligence of those involved. Which is low,
    unfortunately, intelligence is the least desirable thing in autocratic
    systems. Actually, any virtue isn't desirable, because it can challenge
    the authorities. So, every virtue is reduced to the simplest level.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to JTEM on Fri May 17 14:30:12 2024
    On 17.5.2024. 7:14, JTEM wrote:
    Mario Petrinovic wrote:

             Yes, I agree. Only, it wasn't supposed to be that way. But >> hey, it all depends on the intelligence of those involved. Which is
    low, unfortunately, intelligence is the least desirable thing in
    autocratic systems. Actually, any virtue isn't desirable, because it
    can challenge the authorities. So, every virtue is reduced to the
    simplest level.

    Back before usenet died I had a number of very eye opening experiences.

    I got into an "Argument" once, over in talk.orgins, with the group. The
    whole group. Not a single person agreed with me.

    Anyway, I "Argued" that so called "Moderns" and Neanderthals interbred.
    As you know, this is a proven fact. Everyone outside of Africa carries Neanderthal DNA, as most people inside of Africa do even if to a lesser extant. But turn the dial on the Wayback Machine to 2007 and this DNA evidence was not known. So...

    Anyway, I never ever got a single person to "Argue" the evidence. Not
    one person. I knew what the claims were, I was intimate a number of
    "Studies" finding zero interbreeding and I knew what was wrong with
    those studies, and why the exact opposite should be concluded. And not
    a single person was willing to even entertain a discussion on the issues.

    It's no different with Aquatic Ape. I'm not saying that the case is as obvious, as well established but it's a really good case. In fact I
    will flat out state that it's not a matter of "If" Aquatic Ape is fact
    but to what extant -- when did it start, how did it work/influence
    our development. But it DEFINITELY happened, it is true. Just
    extant.

    In many ways I see it as parallel to the interbreeding question:  It
    was DEFINITELY true, it was just a matter of HOW and to WHAT EXTANT
    and it's influence on us living today...

    Another example, in the same group, was Gwobull Warbling. People were
    saying things which were just plain not true, and I was confronting
    them.

    I got blocked from the group!

    They eventually lifted it but the message was clear:  Stray from the
    talking points, get shut out.

    Nobody "Got" that lesson. Nobody learned a goddamn thing.

    Academically, it's not all that different with Aquatic Ape. The
    good Doctor was censored, a post deleted on one online side, with
    Aquatic Ape denounced as fringe pseudo science.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scopes_trial

    That was 1925, and nothing has changed in this country. The only
    difference is WHAT specifically they label as heresy. It was at one
    time this thing called "Evolution," today it's Aquatic Ape and
    ACTUAL climate science aka "not Gwobull Warbling."

    Why does "Schöningen" matter? It doesn't actually re-date anything,
    this new dating. There's still older finds setting this technology
    back a further 100,000 years. The needle hasn't been nudged one
    inch. Not one iota.

    It's an inland site. It's people far removed from the coast and the population that survived by exploiting it. It does, however, embarrass savanna idiocy -- this "high tech" appear deep into central Europe
    long before Africa.

    So what's the point to it?

    "But, it means they could shape wood, more than a million years
    after they were known to shape rock and despite having older finds
    that prove the same thing!"

    It all seems *Way* more narrative driven than science.

    I would only like to emphasize two points:
    1) We have subcutaneous fat, aquatic mammals also have it, this is more
    than solid reason to research AAT. Actually, I don't think that anything
    else has such solid foundation. But nobody cares.
    2) This is how the EU minister of foreign affairs describes the state in
    which humankind is (famous speech over here): https://youtu.be/ufAHg6hN4OA?si=s28QqNcVThGzv9Kh

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  • From Pandora@21:1/5 to All on Mon May 27 15:22:47 2024
    Op 27-05-2024 om 07:23 schreef Primum Sapienti:

    Primum Sapienti wrote:
    erik simpson wrote:
    On 5/15/24 3:55 AM, Pandora wrote:
    Op 13-05-2024 om 07:42 schreef Primum Sapienti:

    https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2320484121
    The wooden artifacts from Schöningen’s Spear
    Horizon and their place in human evolution

    "Although in theory, spears could have been used for fishing, the
    large size of most of the spears makes use as fishing implements
    less likely and evidence of spear fishing or fish consumption is
    generally sparse at sites predating the Upper Paleolithic."

    Can someone forward that to the good Doctor?

    If you mean the good Doctor in Belgium, I suspect he'll have his
    usual reaction to the "complete imbeciles" involved in this.

    Actually, it would go more like this: "it completely
    confirms our view"

    :=}}

    The paper on endurance running and hunting would
    make him positively apoplectic.

    "savanna nonsense :-( "

    https://groups.io/g/AAT/topic/savanna_nonsense/106111851

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