• Neanderthal flower burial

    From Primum Sapienti@21:1/5 to All on Sun Oct 15 22:31:11 2023
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440323001024
    Journal of Archaeological Science
    Volume 159, November 2023, 105822

    Shanidar et ses fleurs? Reflections on the
    palynology of the Neanderthal ‘Flower
    Burial’ hypothesis

    Abstract
    Pollen clumps associated with the skeleton of the
    Shanidar 4 Neanderthal were interpreted by the
    excavator as evidence for a purposeful burial
    with flowers. This was one of several findings
    from Shanidar Cave that helped to shape modern
    perceptions of Neanderthals as sharing empathic
    characteristics with Middle Palaeolithic Homo
    sapiens (modern humans). Here the available
    evidence is reviewed critically from a
    palynological viewpoint. It seems likely that at
    least some of the pollen clumps were emplaced by
    nesting solitary bees, though other mechanisms
    may also have been involved. Shanidar 4 remains
    of notable importance, however, in being part
    of a tight cluster of remarkably complete and
    deliberately emplaced Neanderthal skeletal
    remains.

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to All on Mon Oct 16 10:51:56 2023
    Pollen taphonomy at Shanidar Cave (Kurdish Iraq): an initial evaluation
    Marta Fiacconi cs 2015 doi org/10.1016/j.revpalbo.2015.09.003
    Rev.Palaeobotany & Palynology 223:87-93
    Caves provide important locations for the study of ancient human activity & environment.
    One important strand of this ancient environmental work is palynology,
    yet the taphonomy of pollen in caves is locally contingent & often complex. Shanidar Cave was the site of important Hn finds & early palynol.research,
    but pollen taphonomy in the cave has not been previously studied,
    so it is difficult to judge: what might these ancient pollen assemblages represent?
    Here we present pollen from
    - a transect of surface samples within the cave &
    - comparative surface samples from outside the cave:
    at present there is a reasonably close correspondence between assemblages accumulating within & in the external environs of the cave, & with the local vegetation:
    stratigraphic samples may also reflect past local vegetation.


    Shanidar et ses fleurs?
    Reflections on the palynology of the Neanderthal ‘Flower Burial’ hypothesis 2023 J.archaeol.Sci.159, 105822 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440323001024
    Pollen clumps ass.x the skeleton of the Shanidar-4 Hn were interpreted by the excavator as evidence for a purposeful burial with flowers.
    This was 1 of several findings from Shanidar Cave that helped to shape modern perceptions of Hn as sharing empathic characteristics with mid-Palaeolithic Hs.
    Here the available evidence is reviewed critically from a palynological viewpoint.
    Likely, at least some of the pollen clumps were emplaced by nesting solitary bees, though other mechanisms may also have been involved.
    But Shanidar-4 remains of notable importance in being part of a tight cluster of remarkably complete & deliberately emplaced Hn skeletal remains.

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  • From JTEM is so reasonable@21:1/5 to All on Mon Oct 16 23:22:39 2023
    The problem is that flowers aren't significant here. They're not what
    matters. Intentional burials matter.

    The flowers were only noteworthy as evidence for intentional burials.

    But there's plenty of other evidence.

    WHAT'S EVEN MORE TELLING:

    With plenty of other evidence they attack intentional burials in
    Eurasia, and throwing spears, but have fury cave monkeys in Africa
    conducting intentional burials AND even marking their tomb with
    writing or at least symbols...

    A tad lopsided here, isn't it?

    But, like I've pointed out many times, paleo anthropology is the
    furthest thing from science. It has an agenda, and whatever
    advances Out of Africa purity gets in print, and whatever doesn't
    gets denied or relabeled.

    It's always been this way -- top down, religious edicts. It started
    from the very beginning, with Darwin. He's still deified even
    now. Piltdown man? How long did it take before that one was
    finally put to rest?



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    https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/730359491090169856

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to All on Tue Oct 17 03:16:52 2023
    Op dinsdag 17 oktober 2023 om 08:22:41 UTC+2 schreef JTEM is so reasonable:
    The problem is that flowers aren't significant here. They're not what matters. Intentional burials matter.
    The flowers were only noteworthy as evidence for intentional burials.
    But there's plenty of other evidence.
    WHAT'S EVEN MORE TELLING:
    With plenty of other evidence they attack intentional burials in
    Eurasia, and throwing spears, but have fury cave monkeys in Africa
    conducting intentional burials AND even marking their tomb with
    writing or at least symbols...
    A tad lopsided here, isn't it?
    But, like I've pointed out many times, paleo anthropology is the
    furthest thing from science. It has an agenda, and whatever
    advances Out of Africa purity gets in print, and whatever doesn't
    gets denied or relabeled.
    It's always been this way -- top down, religious edicts. It started
    from the very beginning, with Darwin. He's still deified even
    now. Piltdown man? How long did it take before that one was
    finally put to rest?

    Thanks, JTEM, I only hope that, before I'll die, human waterside evltion will be generally accepted...

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  • From JTEM is so reasonable@21:1/5 to JTEM is so reasonable on Tue Oct 17 13:47:32 2023
    JTEM is so reasonable wrote:

    There was a professor in Australia who contradicted the claim that
    Gwobull Warbling was killing off the reefs. He was attacked, people
    called for him to be fired (I believe he actually was fired) and he
    was "Debunked" with strong evidence that agricultural runoff was
    killing the reefs.

    Peter Ridd. He was fired. He did sue. He did win.



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    https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/173008160138

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  • From JTEM is so reasonable@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Tue Oct 17 13:18:18 2023
    [email protected] wrote:

    Thanks, JTEM, I only hope that, before I'll die, human waterside evltion
    will be generally accepted...

    I'm absolutely certain that it already is. It's just that academia honestly
    is tightly controlled. You don't pull in the big bucks AND contradict the status quo.

    There was a professor in Australia who contradicted the claim that
    Gwobull Warbling was killing off the reefs. He was attacked, people
    called for him to be fired (I believe he actually was fired) and he
    was "Debunked" with strong evidence that agricultural runoff was
    killing the reefs.

    Agricultural runoff.

    AND NOBODY, absolutely NOBODY stopped and said, "Wait! We
    just proved him right! There's no heat doing this, it's our waste
    water!"

    What I'm saying is that it's academia. The problem isn't limited to
    Aquatic Ape. Nobody is allowed to step out of line.

    But, this does not mean they can't see the truth. It just means that
    they're not allowed to say anything, at least not yet.




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    https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/173008160138

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 21 07:43:55 2023
    Op dinsdag 17 oktober 2023 om 22:18:19 UTC+2 schreef JTEM is so reasonable:
    [email protected] wrote:

    Thanks, JTEM, I only hope that, before I'll die, human waterside evolution will be generally accepted...

    I'm absolutely certain that it already is.

    By some yes, but I still read idiotic blabla of e.g. John Hawks on AAT etc. And such people still have numerous followers.

    It's just that academia honestly
    is tightly controlled. You don't pull in the big bucks AND contradict the status quo.
    There was a professor in Australia who contradicted the claim that
    Gwobull Warbling was killing off the reefs. He was attacked, people
    called for him to be fired (I believe he actually was fired) and he
    was "Debunked" with strong evidence that agricultural runoff was
    killing the reefs.
    Agricultural runoff.
    AND NOBODY, absolutely NOBODY stopped and said, "Wait! We
    just proved him right! There's no heat doing this, it's our waste
    water!"
    What I'm saying is that it's academia. The problem isn't limited to
    Aquatic Ape. Nobody is allowed to step out of line.
    But, this does not mean they can't see the truth. It just means that
    they're not allowed to say anything, at least not yet.

    Yes, Elaine was outside academia, I'm outside academia...

    But how can these idiots so incredibly be & remain wrong?? Humans don't descend from australopiths, don't even come from Africa, certainly don't come from savanna, didn't hunt systematically, not only humans but all apes were bipedal=aquarboreal etc.etc.
    etc.

    Of course, different AATers said & still say +-different things, but the great lines are obvious: we were waterside.
    I can only compare this to the initial non-acceptance of plate tectonics by geologists?

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  • From JTEM is so reasonable@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Oct 21 19:38:32 2023
    [email protected] wrote:

    Of course, different AATers said & still say +-different things, but
    the great lines are obvious: we were waterside.

    Where you & I split are..

    #1. I despise linear models. I try to speak in terms of populations,
    not species, such as in the example of Australopithecus: There
    was interbreeding right up to the very moment when they couldn't.

    I think gene flow was mostly asymmetrical, flowing mostly from the
    waterside to the inland, but there was DNA working back to the
    waterside population...

    #2. I am more interested in environment than location.

    I agree that Eurasia makes a lot of sense, and I really love your island
    talk -- it makes so much sense -- but I kind of see a genetic "Fertile Crescent" running from the Horn of Africa (or a little south) to
    Melanesia, and where precisely "we" began is not so important as the
    fact that it was waterside, exploiting marine resources.

    I can only compare this to the initial non-acceptance of plate
    tectonics by geologists?

    It's a sickness that's permeating all of science these days, at least
    any science that lacks an direct military or industrial (economic)
    value.




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    https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/731796353021247489

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to All on Sun Oct 22 02:58:09 2023
    Op zondag 22 oktober 2023 om 04:38:33 UTC+2 schreef JTEM is so reasonable:
    [email protected] wrote:

    Of course, different AATers said & still say +-different things, but
    the great lines are obvious: we were waterside.

    Where you & I split are..
    #1. I despise linear models. I try to speak in terms of populations,
    not species, such as in the example of Australopithecus: There
    was interbreeding right up to the very moment when they couldn't.
    I think gene flow was mostly asymmetrical, flowing mostly from the
    waterside to the inland, but there was DNA working back to the
    waterside population...

    Interbreeding with?
    I use "Australopithecus"s.s. only for the Plio->early-Pleistocene fossil subgenus of Pan that followed the E.Afr.coast->S-Rift->Transvaal: africanus->robustus cs.
    They could not interbreed with Pliocene Homo (humans have no Pliocene Afr.retroviral DNA), who was following the S-Asian coasts ->Java etc.


    #2. I am more interested in environment than location.
    I agree that Eurasia makes a lot of sense, and I really love your island
    talk -- it makes so much sense -- but I kind of see a genetic "Fertile Crescent" running from the Horn of Africa (or a little south) to
    Melanesia, and where precisely "we" began is not so important as the
    fact that it was waterside, exploiting marine resources.

    Yes.

    If this is all where you & I split, there is no real split... :-)


    I can only compare this to the initial non-acceptance of plate
    tectonics by geologists?

    It's a sickness that's permeating all of science these days, at least
    any science that lacks an direct military or industrial (economic)
    value.

    I'm only trying to understand how these kudu runners can remain so stupid... What we're saying is not so difficult... :-D

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  • From Primum Sapienti@21:1/5 to JTEM is so reasonable on Mon Oct 30 15:03:56 2023
    JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
    [email protected] wrote:

    Thanks, JTEM, I only hope that, before I'll die, human waterside evltion
    will be generally accepted...

    I'm absolutely certain that it already is.

    And your evidence of that is ... ?

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  • From JTEM is so reasonable@21:1/5 to Primum Sapienti on Wed Nov 1 04:21:32 2023
    Primum Sapienti wrote:

    And your

    Reminder: Flowers were never the issue. People got excited
    about the flowers as evidence for prepared burials, what that
    said about Neanderthal beliefs. And there's plenty of evidence
    for prepared burials. Even in the one case you cite here. So
    whether the flower pollen was from grave goods (offerings)
    or bees, it's irrelevant. Because the flowers themselves
    were never what mattered.




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    https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/732734215444201472

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  • From Primum Sapienti@21:1/5 to JTEM is so reasonable on Sun Nov 12 22:25:54 2023
    JTEM is so reasonable wrote:

    [OCPD]

    Yeah, the FBI has been informed about you... can't
    take any risks.

    So, anyway, you are a blithering idiot, quoting
    things you never read, much less understood, and
    that's why you can't answer even basis questions.

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  • From JTEM is so reasonable@21:1/5 to All on Mon Nov 13 12:12:54 2023
    Primum Sapienti wrote:

    [---OCPD---]

    Nothing has changed. The flowers weren't interesting except
    as evidence for prepared burials. Flowers as evidence for
    ritual: Interesting. Flowers in and of themselves were nothing.

    You never did grasp this... for reasons which are apparent.






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    https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/733754887680196608

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