The term "aquatic ape" perhaps gives some people wrong impressions, but it's not wrong: human Pleistocene ancestors were very aquatic, and in a sense we belong to the apes.

Let everybody chose for themselves: in "AAT"
the 1st "A" = amphibious/aquatic/aquarboreal/...?
the 2nd "A" = ape/ancestor/...?

In any case, the comparative anatomy of erectus leaves no doubt:
H.erectus was a slow-shallow diver, probably mostly for shellfish:
H.erectus was very aquatic (even sleeping & copulating & birthing??), very unlike today's apes, possibly often wading bipedally, but rarely if ever throwing or running.

The differences between erectus & sapiens = diving vs wading/walking:
H.sapiens evolved (only 300-200 ka?) e.g.
-very different eye direction (to look ventrally instead of rostrally): -basi-cranial flexion (turns the face+eyes ventrally)
-chin (attachment of oral muscles? loss of prognathism?)
-flat face & smaller nose (loss of prognathism)
-foramen magnum more inferiorly, less posteriorly on skull base
-loss of SOT (supra-orbital torus):
-high & round forehead (consequence of basi-cranial flexion):
-loss of platycephaly
-loss of pachyosteosclerosis (+-no diving any more)
-less platypelloidy: less flaring ilia = less lateral thigh movements -+-shorter & less horizontal femoral necks (still frequent hip fractures!) -loss of platymeria (dorso-ventrally flattened femora)
-less valgus knees
-longer tibias
-less flat feet ...

IOW, only incredible imbeciles still believe their Pleistocene ancestors ran ofter antelopes.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Monday, November 1, 2021 at 5:43:54 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:

The term "aquatic ape" perhaps gives some people wrong impressions, but it's not wrong: human Pleistocene ancestors were very aquatic, and in a sense we belong to the apes.

Let everybody chose for themselves: in "AAT"
the 1st "A" = amphibious/aquatic/aquarboreal/...?
the 2nd "A" = ape/ancestor/...?

In any case, the comparative anatomy of erectus leaves no doubt:
H.erectus was a slow-shallow diver, probably mostly for shellfish:
H.erectus was very aquatic (even sleeping & copulating & birthing??), very unlike today's apes, possibly often wading bipedally, but rarely if ever throwing or running.

The differences between erectus & sapiens = diving vs wading/walking: H.sapiens evolved (only 300-200 ka?) e.g.
-very different eye direction (to look ventrally instead of rostrally): -basi-cranial flexion (turns the face+eyes ventrally)
-chin (attachment of oral muscles? loss of prognathism?)
-flat face & smaller nose (loss of prognathism)
-foramen magnum more inferiorly, less posteriorly on skull base
-loss of SOT (supra-orbital torus):
-high & round forehead (consequence of basi-cranial flexion):
-loss of platycephaly
-loss of pachyosteosclerosis (+-no diving any more)
-less platypelloidy: less flaring ilia = less lateral thigh movements -+-shorter & less horizontal femoral necks (still frequent hip fractures!) -loss of platymeria (dorso-ventrally flattened femora)
-less valgus knees
-longer tibias
-less flat feet ...

IOW, only incredible imbeciles still believe their Pleistocene ancestors ran ofter antelopes.

Humans and Homo: ground apes from arboreal bipedal/bimanual hominoids. Not wader-walkers from sea divers from wader-climbers. A dose of parsimony, please.

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[email protected] wrote:

The term "aquatic ape" perhaps gives some people wrong impressions, but it's not wrong: human Pleistocene
ancestors were very aquatic, and in a sense we belong to the apes.

There are different versions, takes or "Flavors" if you will. At it's simplest I like to point people towards the savanna model they are so fond of.

See, people for some reason that has yet to be identified find it easy to believe that once a toe touched ground on a savanna the human body
miraculously evolved. And if they want to believe that, I guess that's fine. But what isn't fine is this:

Humans, beginning no later than the very first along the Homo line and
probably long before that, spread out using the coast line as their
highway.

They migrated. They migrated along the coast.

"Coastal Dispersal."

Now how is it that our ancestor could spend AT LEAST 2 million years
doing this -- living on the coast, consuming resources then moving on -- WITHOUT any of the influences on our evolution that people are so
eager to imagine in the case of a savanna?

Truth is, you can't carry a savanna on your back. And there is not an
unbroken African savanna lying everywhere from South Africa to
Europe, the middle east and beyond to southeast Asia & Australia.
So whether or not anyones ancestor spent a moment on a savanna is
moot, because OUR ancestors for certain were on that coast. If they
weren't there would be nobody in Europe, the middle east, Asia or
the Americas.

So, if there is an ancestor common to all of us then it absolutely
positively came from the coast. But, we can't say this about the
savanna. A savanna population /May/ be common to everybody.
Or it may be common to nobody. Or it may be common to populations
in one specific region and nowhere else...

If we're going to look for what makes us human, what makes us one
species, we are looking at the coastal population. We are looking at
and talking about Aquatic Ape.

There's different flavors -- when it started, where it start and even WHY
it started -- but the one thing they all share, the AA models, is that they place our ancestors where we know they were, and they talk about the
ways that environment shaped us.




-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/666789124141940736

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DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:

Humans and Homo: ground apes from arboreal bipedal/bimanual hominoids.

Excessively unlikely.

The best model is that chimps LOST their bipedalism because their ancestors were driven into the trees. In other words, it happened precisely the opposite of what you claim.



-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/666789124141940736

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Op woensdag 3 november 2021 om 21:15:26 UTC+1 schreef I Envy JTEM:

The best model is that chimps LOST their bipedalism because their ancestors were driven into the trees. In other words, it happened precisely the opposite
of what you claim.

No ape completely left the trees: early hominoids were aquarboreal: bipedally wading & climbing vertically.,
google e.g. our TREE paper "Aquarboreal Ancestors?".
Human ancestors left the trees when they evolved from aquarboreal to shallow-diving,
google "coastal dispersal Pleistocene Homo PPT.

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On Wednesday, November 3, 2021 at 4:15:26 PM UTC-4, I Envy JTEM wrote:

DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:

Humans and Homo: ground apes from arboreal bipedal/bimanual hominoids.

Excessively unlikely.

The best model is that chimps LOST their bipedalism because their ancestors were driven into the trees. In other words, it happened precisely the opposite
of what you claim.

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/666789124141940736

I can lead an ass to water...

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On Wednesday, November 3, 2021 at 6:52:58 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:

Op woensdag 3 november 2021 om 21:15:26 UTC+1 schreef I Envy JTEM:

The best model is that chimps LOST their bipedalism because their ancestors were driven into the trees. In other words, it happened precisely the opposite
of what you claim.

No ape completely left the trees: early hominoids were aquarboreal: bipedally wading & climbing vertically.,
google e.g. our TREE paper "Aquarboreal Ancestors?".
Human ancestors left the trees when they evolved from aquarboreal to shallow-diving,
google "coastal dispersal Pleistocene Homo PPT.

Neither did humans completely leave the forest. Biologically, we are forest ground apes with cultural adaptations: wooden ships, sails from cotton & ungulate skin...

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DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:

I can lead an ass to water...

You couldn't find your ass with a map and a flashlight, not even with
a 10 minute head start.





-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/tagged/The+Book+of+JTEM/page/20

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On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 2:05:01 AM UTC-4, I Envy JTEM wrote:

DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:

I can lead an ass to water...

You couldn't find your ass with a map and a flashlight, not even with
a 10 minute head start.

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/tagged/The+Book+of+JTEM/page/20

...but I can't stop it from pissing in it.

http://dispatchesfromturtleisland.blogspot.com/2021/11/potatoes-for-peace.html?m=1

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DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:

...but I can't stop

Your OCD is legendary.



-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/667071109600018432

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Op donderdag 4 november 2021 om 06:39:30 UTC+1 schreef DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves:

we are forest ground apes with cultural adaptations: wooden ships, sails from cotton & ungulate skin...

:-D
Repeating nonsense doesn't make it true.

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