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    From JTEM is so reasonable@21:1/5 to Primum Sapienti on Sat Aug 26 23:03:16 2023
    Primum Sapienti wrote:

    https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/999392
    NEWS RELEASE 23-AUG-2023

    A new fossil ape from an 8.7-million-year-old site
    in Türkiye is challenging long-accepted ideas of
    human origins and adding weight to the theory that
    the ancestors of African apes and humans evolved
    in Europe before migrating to Africa between nine
    and seven million years ago.

    As I asked elsewhere, how ever does the savanna crowd
    fit this into their model?

    Only joking. There is no savanna model....

    This is consistent with the good Doctor's model though.

    Mine as well.

    Hard to pinpoint anything.

    But 8.7 million years ago is roughly when Yellowstone
    erupted, causing a massive, global catastrophe.

    This would likely be the last gasp of any European
    population...

    And I would suspect that the good Doctor is right, and
    that bipedalism arose further east. Not "Europe" but
    "Eurasia."

    But, again, it is consistent with Aquatic Ape, doesn't
    disrupt the model at all, while there is absolutely no
    savanna model what so ever, let alone one that can
    account for this.

    I hate to make too much out of it though. for one thing,
    we don't need to. So if there is little to gain why risk a
    lot? Secondly, we all know the media is rubbish. It never
    got anything "Science" right, and human origins is a
    loaded topic with lots & lots of political interest, making
    it doubly susceptible to inaccuracies.

    It's a nice piece of evidence, if it holds up, but we don't
    need it.





    -- --

    https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/726650431983468546

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to All on Sun Aug 27 02:42:15 2023
    Op zondag 27 augustus 2023 om 08:03:18 UTC+2 schreef JTEM is so reasonable:

    :-) Thanks, JTEM, this perfectly confirms our view (my 2022 book p.299): Miocene "great apes" were aquarboreal in northern-Tethys Ocean coastal forests: the Mesopotamian Seaway Closure c 15 Ma split dryopiths-hominids (W) & sivapiths-pongids (E),
    late-Miocene, only hominids s.s.(Homo-Pan-Gorilla) in (then incipient) Red Sea forests survived:
    -Gorilla-Praeanthropus followed the northern Rift -> afarensis->boisei,
    -when the Red Sea opened into the Gulf 6-5 Ma,
    -- Pan-Australopithecus went right -> E.Afr.coast -> southern Rift -> africanus->robustus (// afar.->boisei),
    -- Homo went left -> S.Asian coasts: humans have no Pliocene African retrovial DNA (Yohn cs 2005 PLoS Biol.3:1-11):

    At least 8 *independent* facts show that early-Pleistocene archaic Homo was semi-aquatic:
    •archaic Homo's atypical tooth-wear: caused by "sand & oral processing of marine mollusks", Towle cs 2022 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.24500
    •H.erectus fossilized in coastal sediments: Mojokerto (barnacles, corals), Trinil (edible Pseudodon, Elongaria), Sangiran-17 ("brackish marsh near the coast") etc.
    •Stephen Munro discovered sea-shell engravings made by H.erectus, Joordens cs 2015 Nature 518:228 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25470048/
    •ear exostoses (H.erectus & H.neand.) develop after years of cold(er) water irrigation https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5696936/
    •pachy-osteo-sclerosis is only seen in slow+shallow-diving tetrapods (de Buffrénil cs 2010 J.Mamm.Evol.17:101)
    •brain size in erectus (2x apes=australopiths) is facilitated by sea-food (e.g. DHA in shellfish) cf. dolphins & seals,
    •Pleistocene Homo colonized Flores & later even Luzon far oversea https://www.academia.edu/36193382/Coastal_Dispersal_of_Pleistocene_Homo_2018
    •Homo’s stone tool use & dexterity is typical for molluscivores, cf. sea-otters.

    IOW, only *incredible* imbeciles still believe their ancestors ran after antelopes over Afr.savannas... :-DDD



    https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/999392
    NEWS RELEASE 23-AUG-2023
    A new fossil ape from an 8.7-million-year-old site
    in Türkiye is challenging long-accepted ideas of
    human origins and adding weight to the theory that
    the ancestors of African apes and humans evolved
    in Europe before migrating to Africa between 9 & 7 Ma.

    As I asked elsewhere, how ever does the savanna crowd
    fit this into their model?
    Only joking. There is no savanna model....
    This is consistent with the good Doctor's model though.
    Mine as well.

    :-)

    Hard to pinpoint anything.
    But 8.7 million years ago is roughly when Yellowstone
    erupted, causing a massive, global catastrophe.
    This would likely be the last gasp of any European
    population...

    Cooling??

    And I would suspect that the good Doctor is right, and
    that bipedalism arose further east. Not "Europe" but
    "Eurasia."

    Possibly some Catarrhini were already +-aquarboreal in Oligo-Miocene Arabafrica,
    but when Arabafrica approached Eurasia early-Miocene, this formed island archipels, rich in coastal forests:
    Hominoidea ("apes") there became fully aquarboreal = vertical=BP waders-climbers in swamp forests:
    tail loss, very wide sternum+thorax+pelvis, long arms, shorter+vertical lumbar spine etc.

    -- Bipedality does NOT discern us from (quadrupedal) apes-monkeys:
    hylobatids are BP when running over branches, all great apes are BP when wading in swamp forests.
    -- Frequent shallow-diving discerns Homo s.s. (erectus etc.) from all other primates AFAWK.

    But, again, it is consistent with Aquatic Ape, doesn't
    disrupt the model at all, while there is absolutely no
    savanna model what so ever, let alone one that can
    account for this.
    I hate to make too much out of it though. For one thing,
    we don't need to. So if there is little to gain why risk a
    lot? Secondly, we all know the media is rubbish. It never
    got anything "Science" right, and human origins is a
    loaded topic with lots & lots of political interest, making
    it doubly susceptible to inaccuracies.

    Fossil hunters prefer to find "human ancestors" rather than fossil relatives of chimps or gorillas...
    Afrocentric nonsense!

    It's a nice piece of evidence, if it holds up, but we don't need it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to All on Thu Aug 31 14:41:21 2023
    A few not very important corrections:
    :-) This paper beautifully confirms my view:

    Hominoidea are aquarboreal: bipedally wading+climbing (shorter & centrally-placed lumbar spine, very wide sternum, thorax & pelvis + dorsal scapular, no tail: they predom.moved vertically).
    The extant hominid (Homo-Pan-Gorilla) LCA lived aquarboreally in swamp forests, apparently in the incipient Red Sea late-Miocene:
    Plio-Pleistocene E.Afr.australopith anatomy is most gorilla-like, whereas the S.Afr.apiths look more like chimps & bonobos (see a lot of refs in my Hum.Evol.papers 1990, 1994, 1996, 2000):
    -- Gorilla fossil subgenus Praeanthropus followed then (HP/G split c 8-7 Ma) the incipient northern Rift ->Afar: anamensis, afarensis (?incl. bahrelghazali, deyiremeda, platyops, antiquus=Lucy), ghari, aethiopicus=walkeri & boisei... And when the Red
    Sea opened into the Gulf of Aden (6-5 Ma),
    -- Pliocene Pan subgenus Australopithecus went ->right: the eastern African coastal forests -> incipient southern Rift ->Transvaal: africanus, sediba, robustus, naledi, habilis... ("habilis" with small brain, curved phalanges etc. is no Homo, but
    Afrocentric fossil-hunters see everywhere "Homo" (e.g. "BPity", although all Miocene Hominoidea were BP=vertical waders-climbers = aquarboreals in swamp forests),
    -- Pliocene Homo then went ->left: the southern Asian coasts (H.sapiens has no Pliocene African retroviral DNA):
    on the Indonesian islands, early-Pleistocene archaic Homo were shellfish divers: enamel wear by sand & shells, ear exostoses (water irrigation), pachy-osteo-sclerosis (for shallow-diving e.g. Sirenia), colonisations of Flores & Luzon far oversea, shell
    engravings (google "Munro Joordens"), brain-size x2 (DHA), fossilisation amid corals & edible shellfish, stone tools (cf sea-otter), "fast"(coastal) intercontinental dispersal already early-Pleistocene to Asia, Europe & Africa (+ via rivers inland //).

    Did Hominoidea & Cercopithecoidea split (late-Oligocene?) when Arabafrica approached Eurasia, which initially formed island archipels + coastal forests, which then were colonised by the early "apes", who became (more?) aquarboreal.
    Hylobatids soon followed the southern Asian coastal forests ->East.
    Pongids & hominids split c 14: Mesopotamian Seaway Closure:
    -- sivapiths-pongids -> S.Asia Ind.Ocean coastal forests (forced hylobatids higher into the trees??),
    -- dryopiths-hominids -> Med.Sea-coasts of Europe (or dryopiths N-Med? hominids s.s. S-Med?) -> late-Miocene Red Sea HPG hominids, see above.

    https://www.gondwanatalks.com/l/the-waterside-hypothesis-wading-led-to-upright-walking-in-early-humans/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)