Virtual excavation and analysis of the early Neanderthal cranium from
Altamura (Italy)

Abstract

Complete Neanderthal skeletons are almost unique findings. A very well-preserved specimen of this kind was discovered in 1993 in the
deepest recesses of a karstic system near the town of Altamura in
Southern Italy. We present here a detailed description of the cranium,
after we virtually extracted it from the surrounding stalagmites and stalactites. The morphology of the Altamura cranium fits within the
Neanderthal variability, though it retains features occurring in more
archaic European samples. Some of these features were never observed
in Homo neanderthalensis, i.e. in fossil specimens dated between 300
and 40 ka. Considering the U-Th age we previously obtained (>130 ka),
the morphology of Altamura suggests that the archaic traits it retains
may have been originated by geographic isolation of the early
Neanderthal populations from Southern Italy.

Open access:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-023-04644-1

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Pandora wrote:

Virtual excavation and analysis of the early Neanderthal cranium from Altamura (Italy)

I have to disagree with *Everything* -- that's my job here -- so let me just say that I'm not entirely certain about this.

I mean, the oldest Neanderthals, so old they are often called proto Neanderthals, were found in Spain, Sima de los Huesos, and their DNA
was "Similar" to the Denisovans:

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35806992

(The link to Nature is dead)

Now I believe this Italian fine is a great deal more recent, and it is, while the DNA looks more like what we'd expect from Neanderthals. What
this makes me think is that between the two points in history there was
some sort of bottleneck or "Filter" -- something favoring what we think of
as Neanderthal mtDNA over Denisovan. And that could be as simple as
sexual selection -- the less Denisovan DNA a female had, the more
attractive they were -- are it could have been "Climate Change" or even a catastrophe.

We know Toba was one such "Bottleneck." And there was at least... was
it two glacial periods from the "Proto" Neanderthals in Spain to your
Italian Neanderthal?

...I've sometimes argued that Toba created our idea of the classic Neanderthal.





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On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 12:43:14 +0200, Pandora <[email protected]>
wrote:

We know Toba was one such "Bottleneck." And there was at least... was
it two glacial periods from the "Proto" Neanderthals in Spain to your >>Italian Neanderthal?

...I've sometimes argued that Toba created our idea of the classic >>Neanderthal.

But see:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323019180

Full text pdf: <https://www.geo.arizona.edu/sites/www.geo.arizona.edu/files/135%20Yost%20et%20al%202018%20Toba%20Malawi%20Jour%20Human%20Evol.pdf>

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On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 20:54:21 -0700 (PDT), JTEM is so reasonable <[email protected]> wrote:

Pandora wrote:

Virtual excavation and analysis of the early Neanderthal cranium from
Altamura (Italy)

I have to disagree with *Everything* -- that's my job here -- so let me just >say that I'm not entirely certain about this.

I mean, the oldest Neanderthals, so old they are often called proto >Neanderthals, were found in Spain, Sima de los Huesos, and their DNA
was "Similar" to the Denisovans:

The nuclear DNA of the Sima de los Huesos hominins shares more derived
alleles with Neanderthals.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35806992

(The link to Nature is dead)

Here it is:
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature17405

Full text pdf: https://www.eva.mpg.de/documents/Nature/Meyer_Nuclear_Nature_2016_2259387.pdf

Now I believe this Italian fine is a great deal more recent, and it is, while >the DNA looks more like what we'd expect from Neanderthals. What
this makes me think is that between the two points in history there was
some sort of bottleneck or "Filter" -- something favoring what we think of
as Neanderthal mtDNA over Denisovan. And that could be as simple as
sexual selection -- the less Denisovan DNA a female had, the more
attractive they were -- are it could have been "Climate Change" or even a >catastrophe.

We know Toba was one such "Bottleneck." And there was at least... was
it two glacial periods from the "Proto" Neanderthals in Spain to your
Italian Neanderthal?

...I've sometimes argued that Toba created our idea of the classic
Neanderthal.

But see:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323019180

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-14668-4

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Pandora wrote:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323019180

It's not really useful. This lake is clearly in the southern hemisphere,
and the southern hemisphere is spared the brunt, and it's also
maybe as distant from the equator as is Saharan Africa.

Remember: It's the NORTHERN hemisphere that gets the knee to
the balls, not the southern. The southern recovers much more
quickly, the closer to the equator the better.



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JTEM is so reasonable wrote:

Pandora wrote:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323019180

It's not really useful. This lake is clearly in the southern hemisphere,
and the southern hemisphere is spared the brunt, and it's also
maybe as distant from the equator as is Saharan Africa.

Remember: It's the NORTHERN hemisphere that gets the knee to
the balls, not the southern. The southern recovers much more
quickly, the closer to the equator the better.

Toba happened ~74 kya. The so called classic neanderthal is
considered to be around 40 kya. On what basis did you say "I've
sometimes argued that Toba created our idea of the classic
Neanderthal"?

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JTEM is so reasonable wrote:

Pandora wrote:

Virtual excavation and analysis of the early Neanderthal cranium from
Altamura (Italy)

I have to disagree with *Everything* -- that's my job here -- so let me just say that I'm not entirely certain about this.

I mean, the oldest Neanderthals, so old they are often called proto Neanderthals, were found in Spain, Sima de los Huesos, and their DNA
was "Similar" to the Denisovans:

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35806992

(The link to Nature is dead)

https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-023-04644-1

Works fine for me. Ask your mom for help.

Now I believe this Italian fine is a great deal more recent, and it is, while

You believe that based on what? From the paper

"Studies carried out in the last decade ascribed Altamura
to Homo neanderthalensis, following morphometric and
paleogenetic (mtDNA) data associated to a U/Th age ranging
between 130.1 ± 1.9 and 172 ± 15 ka."

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https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323019180

Subdecadal phytolith and charcoal records from Lake Malawi, East Africa imply minimal effects on human evolution from the ~74 ka Toba supereruption
Chad L Yost cs 2018 JHE 116 doi 10.1016/j.jhevol.2017.11.005

The temporal proximity of the ~74 ka Toba super-eruption to a putative 100–50 ka human population bottleneck is the basis for the "volcanic winter/weak Garden of Eden" hypothesis:
did the eruption cause a 6-yr-long global volcanic winter? reduce the effective population of AMHs to < 10,000?

We sampled 2 cores collected from Lake Malawi with crypto-tephra previously fingerprinted to the Toba super-eruption.
Phytolith & charcoal samples were continuously collected at ~3–4 mm (~8–9 yr) intervals above & below the Toba cryptotephra position, with no stratigraphic breaks.

For samples synchronous or proximal to the Toba interval, we found no change
- in low elevation tree-cover,
- in cool climate C3 & warm season C4 xerophytic & mesophytic grass abundance that is outside of normal variability.
A spike in locally derived char-coal & xero-phytic C4 grasses immediately after the Toba eruption
- indicates reduced precipitation & die-off of at least some afro-montane vegetation,
- does not signal volcanic winter conditions.
A review of Toba tuff petrological & melt inclusion studies suggest a Tambora-like 50 to 100 Mt SO2 atmospheric injection,
but most Toba climate models use SO2 values that are 1 to 2 orders of magnitude higher, significantly over-estimating the amount of cooling.
A review of recent genetic studies finds no support for a genetic bottleneck at or near ~74 ka.

Based on these previous studies & our new paleo-environmental data, we find no support for the Toba catastrophe hypothesis:
the Toba super-eruption did not
- produce a 6-yr-long volcanic winter in E-Africa,
- cause a genetic bottle-neck among African AMHs,
- bring humanity to the brink of extinction.

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Primum Sapienti wrote:

JTEM is so reasonable wrote:

(The link to Nature is dead)

Works fine for me. Ask your mom for help.

This is the actually link, copied directly from the article:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature17405.html

Just go to the article cited, hoover over where it says "Published in the journal
Nature" and click. As you can see for yourself, the spazz is lying it's trolling
ass off.

The link is dead.

You believe that based on what?

I actually named the site. You're not fooling anyone. Your narcissism is shining through, this need to obstruct. The finds at Sima de los Huesos.

I specifically mentioned them. You are ignorant of them, you swear to
us now, and lack any interest in the topic so of course you couldn't just Google them.

Why are you here? What defect is compelling you to do this?



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Primum Sapienti wrote:

Toba happened ~74 kya. The so called classic neanderthal is
considered to be around 40 kya.

So nothing inconsistent with what I stated.




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JTEM is so reasonable wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

Toba happened ~74 kya. The so called classic neanderthal is
considered to be around 40 kya.

So nothing inconsistent with what I stated.

I didn't think that "Accuracy" was much of an issue, as the underlying
premise itself was stupid -- that things that happened 74K years ago
had no impact on life 40k years ago -- but I really should add:

Neanderthals were gone 40k years ago.

Interbreeding had long since begun.

There were only hybrids 40k years ago. So this fantasy that "Classic" Neanderthals lived 40k years ago is retarded.




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JTEM is so reasonable wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

Toba happened ~74 kya. The so called classic neanderthal is
considered to be around 40 kya.

So nothing inconsistent with what I stated.

Toba happened ~74 kya. The so called classic neanderthal is
considered to be around 40 kya. On what basis did you say "I've
sometimes argued that Toba created our idea of the classic
Neanderthal"?

Over 30 thousand years inconsistent...

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Primum Sapienti wrote:

JTEM is so reasonable wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

Toba happened ~74 kya. The so called classic neanderthal is
considered to be around 40 kya.

So nothing inconsistent with what I stated.

Toba happened ~74 kya. The so called classic neanderthal is
considered to be around 40 kya. On what basis did you say "I've
sometimes argued that Toba created our idea of the classic
Neanderthal"?

Over 30 thousand years inconsistent...

You're just rambling. We're speaking of human evolution. What
happened 74k years ago had an impact on everything that came
AFTERWARDS. But it doesn't work in reverse. What happened
30k or 40k can't slide back in time and influence events 74k
years ago. The fact that I had to explain this to you condemns
both you and your mental healthcare provider.





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Op zaterdag 25 maart 2023 om 13:32:12 UTC+1 schreef Pandora:

Virtual excavation and analysis of the early Neanderthal cranium from Altamura (Italy)
Complete Neanderthal skeletons are almost unique findings. A very well-preserved specimen of this kind was discovered in 1993 in the
deepest recesses of a karstic system near the town of Altamura in
Southern Italy. We present here a detailed description of the cranium,
after we virtually extracted it from the surrounding stalagmites and stalactites. The morphology of the Altamura cranium fits within the Neanderthal variability, though it retains features occurring in more archaic European samples. Some of these features were never observed
in Homo neanderthalensis, i.e. in fossil specimens dated between 300
and 40 ka. Considering the U-Th age we previously obtained (>130 ka),
the morphology of Altamura suggests that the archaic traits it retains
may have been originated by geographic isolation of the early
Neanderthal populations from Southern Italy.
Open access:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-023-04644-1

Thanks, Pandora, see my comment there:
Thanks a lot for this very interesting article. It beautifully confirms our view on neandertal lifestyle and diet, as described in my recent book "De evolutie van de mens" (Acad.Uitg. Eburon 2022 Utrecht NL): coastal omnivores that seasonally followed
the rivers inland: brain enlargement (DHA), anterior projection of the mid-face, elongated antero-posterior brain skull (lower cranial vault and occipital bun), google e.g. "GondwanaTalks Verhaegen English".
:-)

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JTEM is so reasonable wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

JTEM is so reasonable wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

Toba happened ~74 kya. The so called classic neanderthal is
considered to be around 40 kya.

So nothing inconsistent with what I stated.

Toba happened ~74 kya. The so called classic neanderthal is
considered to be around 40 kya. On what basis did you say "I've
sometimes argued that Toba created our idea of the classic
Neanderthal"?

Over 30 thousand years inconsistent...

You're just rambling. We're speaking of human evolution. What

Simple math. Apparently beyond you.

happened 74k years ago had an impact on everything that came
AFTERWARDS. But it doesn't work in reverse. What happened
30k or 40k can't slide back in time and influence events 74k
years ago. The fact that I had to explain this to you condemns
both you and your mental healthcare provider.

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Primum Sapienti wrote:

Simple math. Apparently beyond you.

Yeah. Simple math: 74 thousand years ago came before 40k and
30k, so what happened 74k years ago CAN and DID impact on
what happened later. But, it never worked in reverse.




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JTEM is so reasonable wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

Simple math. Apparently beyond you.

Yeah. Simple math: 74 thousand years ago came before 40k and
30k, so what happened 74k years ago CAN and DID impact on
what happened later. But, it never worked in reverse.

* * * *
JTEM is so reasonable wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

Toba happened ~74 kya. The so called classic neanderthal is
considered to be around 40 kya.

So nothing inconsistent with what I stated.

Toba happened ~74 kya. The so called classic neanderthal is
considered to be around 40 kya. On what basis did you say "I've
sometimes argued that Toba created our idea of the classic
Neanderthal"?

Over 30 thousand years inconsistent...
* * * *


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_catastrophe_theory

The Toba eruption, (sometimes called the Toba supereruption
or the Youngest Toba eruption) was a supervolcano eruption
that occurred around 74,000 years ago at the site of
present-day Lake Toba in Sumatra, Indonesia. It is one of
the Earth's largest known explosive eruptions. The Toba
catastrophe theory holds that this event caused a severe
global volcanic winter of six to ten years and contributed
to a 1,000-year-long cooling episode, leading to a genetic
bottleneck in humans.

A number of genetic studies revealed that 50,000 years ago
human ancestor population greatly expanded from only a few
thousand individuals.



You still have math problems...

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Primum Sapienti wrote:

Toba happened ~74 kya. The so called classic neanderthal is
considered to be around 40 kya.

Well. Pretending that you really are reading from the Gospels, and
you're reciting truths, that doesn't contradict me. As what occurred
40k years ago was shaped by what happened 74k years ago.

Truth is, "Classic Neanderthal" was gone by 40k. We had cro magnon
on the scene by then.

On what basis did you say "I've
sometimes argued that Toba created our idea of the classic
Neanderthal"?

It was a bottle neck, you jackwad. It was a giant "Reset Button"
where most of the population was killed off.

It was a filter, if you will.

The fact that you have to ask, that you think asking me is
appropriate much less supportive of your contradictions should
be an embarrassment to you.

You still have math problems...

You are a blithering idiot.





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JTEM is so reasonable wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

Toba happened ~74 kya. The so called classic neanderthal is
considered to be around 40 kya.

Well.

You're welcome.

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Primum Sapienti wrote:

[OCPD]

So back to the lesson:

40k years ago came AFTER 74K years ago.

No, honest. It really did.

So events of 74K years could and actually did have an
impact on what occurred 40k years ago...





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OCPD, Primum Sapienti wrote:

[...]

I'll say this again and try not to laugh at you too hard but,
what happened 74k years ago shaped everything that
happened afterwards. But, it never worked in reverse. The
events of 40k years ago could not and did not slide back
in time and alter events of 74k years ago. And you're a
blithering idiot.




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