• anthropocentrism

    From [email protected]@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 25 03:58:49 2022
    Many traditional PAs still assume that australopiths ("bipedal") are closer relatives of us ("hominins") than of Pan or Gorilla, but this is wrong, of course: miraculously there would be 100s of Plio-Pleistocene fossil human ancestors in Africa, but (
    almost) 0 fossil chimp, bonobo or gorilla ancestors (obviously an anthropocentric prejudice). Retroviral evidence places human Pliocene ancestors with Asian primates (C.T.Yohn cs 2005 PLoS Biol.3:1-11), and bipedalism does not discern us from the other
    Hominoidea (e.g. Trachilos BP footprints c 6 Ma): all apes had vertical Mio-Pliocene ancestors, google "aquarboreal".
    Anatomical comparisons show that E.African a'piths were fossil relatives of gorillas, and S.African a'piths, of bonobos & chimps: Gorilla & Pan evolved in parallel from late-Pliocene "gracile" afarensis//africanus to early-Pleistocene "robust" boisei//
    robustus to extant knuckle-walking gorillas//bonobos+chimps (e.g. 1994 Hum.Evol.9:121-139, 1996 Hum.Evol.11:35-41, 2013 Hum.Evol.28:237-266). Meanwhile, Homo simply followed the S.Asian coasts as far as Java & Flores, google "coastal dispersal
    Pleistocene Homo".

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  • From JTEM is so reasonable@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Nov 25 09:14:59 2022
    [email protected] wrote:

    Many traditional PAs still assume that australopiths ("bipedal") are closer relatives of us ("hominins")
    than of Pan or Gorilla, but this is wrong, of course: miraculously there would be 100s of
    Plio-Pleistocene fossil human ancestors in Africa, but (almost) 0 fossil chimp, bonobo or gorilla
    ancestors (obviously an anthropocentric prejudice).

    The evidence we find is consistent with Aquatic Ape, and so isn't the evidence that we don't find!

    People get it drilled into their heads that "Absence of evidence is not evidence
    of absence," but it is. It may not be "Proof" but it's certainly evidence!





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    https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/701569038790377472

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 25 12:08:53 2022
    Op vrijdag 25 november 2022 om 18:15:01 UTC+1 schreef JTEM is so reasonable:

    Many traditional PAs still assume that australopiths ("bipedal") are closer relatives of us ("hominins")
    than of Pan or Gorilla, but this is wrong, of course: miraculously there would be 100s of
    Plio-Pleistocene fossil human ancestors in Africa, but (almost) 0 fossil chimp, bonobo or gorilla
    ancestors (obviously an anthropocentric prejudice).

    The evidence we find is consistent with Aquatic Ape, and so isn't the evidence
    that we don't find!
    People get it drilled into their heads that "Absence of evidence is not evidence
    of absence," but it is. It may not be "Proof" but it's certainly evidence!

    Yes.

    One of the problems is that most PA textbooks still reason:
    - forest primates incl.apes = quadrupedal,
    - outside forest = plain (savanna in Africa) = bipedal,
    - australopiths = BP, hence they're human, not ape ancestors.

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  • From JTEM is so reasonable@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Nov 25 14:32:24 2022
    [email protected] wrote:

    One of the problems is that most PA textbooks still reason:
    - forest primates incl.apes = quadrupedal,
    - outside forest = plain (savanna in Africa) = bipedal,
    - australopiths = BP, hence they're human, not ape ancestors.

    There just plain isn't enough genetic "Distance" between Homo and Pan
    to not have Chimps evolving from a bipedal ancestor.

    For the longest time the LCA was placed at 6 million years before present,
    all based on modern mtDNA and stupid assumptions: The imaginary
    "Molecular Clock."

    This greatly exaggerated the age of the LCA.

    Even so, the 6 million year figure places the split well after the emergence
    of bipedalism!

    So if we look at the exaggerated age, Chimps evolved from a bipedal
    ancestor. And, if we look at a more recent, more realistic age, Chimps
    evolved from a bipedal ancestor!

    Personally? Going out on the limb here, I'm going to place it around 3.7 million years ago and quite possibly as recently as 2.8 million! Either way
    we are well within the range of Australopithecus afarensis.

    NOTE: What actually constitutes a "Split" may be less objective and more subjective than any of us would like.

    The lines between closely related "Species" are blurry enough, start
    throwing in concepts such as "Sub Species" and we just sparked a bar
    room brawl...

    Two populations can become discernible, genetically, without them
    becoming separate species, and quite frankly there is no "Test" for
    determining when speciation has occurred, and the single BEST test of
    all, interbreeding, can't be raised without dispute. So a handful of
    reasonable people could (and in fact do) reasonably conclude different
    points of speciation.





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    https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/701927933389029376

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 25 15:46:03 2022
    Op vrijdag 25 november 2022 om 23:32:25 UTC+1 schreef JTEM is so reasonable:

    One of the problems is that most PA textbooks still reason:
    - forest primates incl.apes = quadrupedal,
    - outside forest = plain (savanna in Africa) = bipedal,
    - australopiths = BP, hence they're human, not ape ancestors.

    There just plain isn't enough genetic "Distance" between Homo and Pan
    to not have Chimps evolving from a bipedal ancestor.
    For the longest time the LCA was placed at 6 million years before present, all based on modern mtDNA and stupid assumptions: The imaginary
    "Molecular Clock." This greatly exaggerated the age of the LCA.
    Even so, the 6 million year figure places the split well after the emergence of bipedalism!
    So if we look at the exaggerated age, Chimps evolved from a bipedal
    ancestor. And, if we look at a more recent, more realistic age, Chimps evolved from a bipedal ancestor!
    Personally? Going out on the limb here, I'm going to place it around 3.7 million years ago and quite possibly as recently as 2.8 million! Either way we are well within the range of Australopithecus afarensis.
    NOTE: What actually constitutes a "Split" may be less objective and more subjective than any of us would like.
    The lines between closely related "Species" are blurry enough, start
    throwing in concepts such as "Sub Species" and we just sparked a bar
    room brawl...
    Two populations can become discernible, genetically, without them
    becoming separate species, and quite frankly there is no "Test" for determining when speciation has occurred, and the single BEST test of
    all, interbreeding, can't be raised without dispute. So a handful of reasonable people could (and in fact do) reasonably conclude different
    points of speciation.

    IMO the traditional splitting dates (e.g. H/P 4-7 Ma) fit remarkably well.
    In fact, 5.4 Ma (when the red Sea opened into the Gulf) is perfect:
    H followed the N-Ind.Ocean shores, P followed the W-Ind.Ocean initially. https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidbressan/2018/04/03/the-discovery-of-the-great-rift-valley-where-africa-is-splitting-in-two/
    -- Praeanthropus-Gorilla followed the E.Afr.Rift->lake Turkana etc.?
    -- Australopithecus-Pan 2 or 3 My later followed the S.Afr.Rift->lake Malawi etc.??
    This could explain their parallel evolutions? Praeanthr.afarensis->boisei->gorillas // Australop.africanus->robustus->bonobo-chimp??
    Meanwhile, Homo followed the S-Asian coasts, of course.

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  • From JTEM is so reasonable@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Nov 25 18:24:27 2022
    [email protected] wrote:

    IMO the traditional splitting dates (e.g. H/P 4-7 Ma) fit remarkably well.
    In fact, 5.4 Ma (when the red Sea opened into the Gulf) is perfect:

    Lol! Problem is we could argue all day over how we define the split, or
    even what is a split!

    H followed the N-Ind.Ocean shores, P followed the W-Ind.Ocean initially.

    I feel like you have to be right but, I'm sorry, I just don't know enough to come out with my own opinion just yet.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidbressan/2018/04/03/the-discovery-of-the-great-rift-valley-where-africa-is-splitting-in-two/
    -- Praeanthropus-Gorilla followed the E.Afr.Rift->lake Turkana etc.?
    -- Australopithecus-Pan 2 or 3 My later followed the S.Afr.Rift->lake Malawi etc.??
    This could explain their parallel evolutions? Praeanthr.afarensis->boisei->gorillas // Australop.africanus->robustus->bonobo-chimp??
    Meanwhile, Homo followed the S-Asian coasts, of course.

    This whole Rift Valley nonsense! I mean, they find what they find, assuming not another Naledi case, but it's clearly where a waterside population out of Asia are going to end up. It would be unavoidable. Yet we're all supposed to pretend that if we find anything there then it dropped out of the sky, landed there and then shot back in time, evolved on a savanna only to return to the Rift Valley? Is that right? Or is the Rift Valley the savanna they always talk about?

    Not that they have a model that's consistent... or a model for that matter.





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    https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/701934020130390016

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