• Why do Hominoidea differ from Cercopithecoidea?

    From [email protected]@21:1/5 to All on Thu Nov 17 08:37:12 2022
    What made apes so different from monkeys?
    The answer isn't so difficult if we use the anatomical & comparative evidence. Apes are generally much larger than monkeys (Mio-Pliocene hylobatids probably reduced in size, but still have unexpectedly long gestation periods for their size), they lost the tail (very unexpected in arboreal animals), they evolved a very broad &
    strong sternum (Hominoidea = Latisternalia: their thorax broadened, which placed the scapulas more dorsally, and the arms more laterally), the spine shifted from dorsal to central in the body (suggesting a vertical rather than horizontal spine), the
    lumbar spine reduced from 7 to 5 vertebras (id.), the arms lengthened (possibly for more below-branch locomotion) etc.
    Most mammals (quadrupedal) have a dorsal spine + a narrow body suspended below it: a latero-laterally narrow pelvis & thorax & sternebrae (rod-like), but early apes evolved stronger ams & a more vertical & very broad body.
    All this suggests in early apes a more vertical & arm-hanging locomotion, as is necessary in swamp forests, and sometimes (in spite of Pleistocene coolings?) still can be seen in pongids & hominids wading bipedally in forest swamps, google e.g. "bonobo
    wading".
    From this ancestral wading bipedalism, only humans remain BP, but hylobatids evolved brachiation, pongids suspensory locomotion (& pronograde fist-walking), and Gorilla & Pan in parallel (different kinds of) knuckle-walking (australopiths->African apes).
    Google "aquarboreal" (aqua=water, arbor=tree).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_l@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Thu Nov 17 15:01:38 2022
    On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 11:37:13 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
    What made apes so different from monkeys?
    The answer isn't so difficult if we use the anatomical & comparative evidence.
    Apes are generally much larger than monkeys (Mio-Pliocene hylobatids probably reduced in size, but still have unexpectedly long gestation periods for their size), they lost the tail (very unexpected in arboreal animals), they evolved a very broad &
    strong sternum (Hominoidea = Latisternalia: their thorax broadened, which placed the scapulas more dorsally, and the arms more laterally), the spine shifted from dorsal to central in the body (suggesting a vertical rather than horizontal spine), the
    lumbar spine reduced from 7 to 5 vertebras (id.), the arms lengthened (possibly for more below-branch locomotion) etc.
    Most mammals (quadrupedal) have a dorsal spine + a narrow body suspended below it: a latero-laterally narrow pelvis & thorax & sternebrae (rod-like), but early apes evolved stronger ams & a more vertical & very broad body.
    All this suggests in early apes a more vertical & arm-hanging locomotion, as is necessary in swamp forests, and sometimes (in spite of Pleistocene coolings?) still can be seen in pongids & hominids wading bipedally in forest swamps, google e.g. "bonobo
    wading".
    From this ancestral wading bipedalism, only humans remain BP, but hylobatids evolved brachiation, pongids suspensory locomotion (& pronograde fist-walking), and Gorilla & Pan in parallel (different kinds of) knuckle-walking (australopiths->African apes)
    .
    Google "aquarboreal" (aqua=water, arbor=tree).
    GIGO.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to All on Thu Nov 17 15:12:22 2022
    ...

    GIGO.

    Indeed:
    this is from a real anthropologist:
    Professor Phillip Tobias (who held the chair of Raymond Dart) was initially sympathetic to the savannah model, but in 1995 he exclaimed:
    “We were all profoundly and unutterably wrong! ...
    Open the window and throw out the savannah hypothesis; it’s dead and we need a new paradigm ...
    All the former savannah supporters (including myself) must now swallow our earlier words in the light of the new results from the early hominid deposits.”

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_l@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Thu Nov 17 17:33:28 2022
    On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 6:12:23 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
    ...

    GIGO.

    Indeed:
    this is from a real anthropologist:
    Professor Phillip Tobias (who held the chair of Raymond Dart) was initially sympathetic to the savannah model, but in 1995 he exclaimed:
    “We were all profoundly and unutterably wrong! ...
    Open the window and throw out the savannah hypothesis; it’s dead and we need a new paradigm ...
    All the former savannah supporters (including myself) must now swallow our earlier words in the light of the new results from the early hominid deposits.”

    Forest Hominoid => Forest hominin => Forest products used by Homo.
    Does your dwelling have wood frame? Most do. Continuum of forest shelters used.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 18 14:17:31 2022
    ...

    this is from a real anthropologist:
    Professor Phillip Tobias (who held the chair of Raymond Dart) was initially sympathetic to the savannah model, but in 1995 he exclaimed:
    “We were all profoundly and unutterably wrong! ...
    Open the window and throw out the savannah hypothesis; it’s dead and we need a new paradigm ...
    All the former savannah supporters (including myself) must now swallow our earlier words in the light of the new results from the early hominid deposits.”

    Forest Hominoid => Forest hominin => Forest products used by Homo.
    Does your dwelling have wood frame? Most do. Continuum of forest shelters used.

    Grow up, my little boy:
    you're still confusing apes+apiths & Homo:
    stone tools = molluscivory:
    google "Joordens Munro shell engravings"
    and see my comments there.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_l@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Nov 18 14:38:47 2022
    On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 5:17:32 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
    ...
    this is from a real anthropologist:
    Professor Phillip Tobias (who held the chair of Raymond Dart) was initially sympathetic to the savannah model, but in 1995 he exclaimed:
    “We were all profoundly and unutterably wrong! ...
    Open the window and throw out the savannah hypothesis; it’s dead and we need a new paradigm ...
    All the former savannah supporters (including myself) must now swallow our earlier words in the light of the new results from the early hominid deposits.”

    Forest Hominoid => Forest hominin => Forest products used by Homo.
    Does your dwelling have wood frame? Most do. Continuum of forest shelters used.
    Grow up, my little boy:
    you're still confusing apes+apiths & Homo:
    stone tools = molluscivory:
    google "Joordens Munro shell engravings"
    and see my comments there.

    MV can't even answer a simple question. Don't even consider asking MV a complex question.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to All on Sun Nov 20 02:54:52 2022
    some kudu runner who can't answer any question:

    MV can't even answer a simple question. Don't even consider asking MV a complex question.

    :-DDD
    Not complex, my little boy.
    Extremely (bio)logical:

    What made apes so different from monkeys?
    Use the anatomical & comparative evidence.
    Apes
    - are generally much larger than monkeys (Mio-Pliocene hylobatids probably reduced in size, but still have unexpectedly long gestation periods for their size),
    - lost the tail (unlikely in arboreal animals),
    - evolved a very broad & strong sternum (Hominoidea = Latisternalia: their thorax broadened -> scapulas more dorsally = arms more laterally),
    - their spine shifted from dorsal to central in the body (vertical rather than horizontal spine?),
    - their lumbar spine reduced from 7 to 5 vertebras (id.),
    - their arms lengthened (more below-branch locomotion) etc.
    Most mammals (quadrupedal) have a dorsal spine + a narrow body suspended below it: a latero-laterally narrow pelvis & thorax & rod-like sternebrae,
    but early apes evolved stronger ams & a more vertical & very broad body.
    IOW, early apes had a more vertical & arm-hanging locomotion, as is necessary in swamp forests.
    In spite of Pleistocene coolings, this is still seen in pongids & hominids wading bipedally in forest swamps, google e.g. "bonobo wading".
    From this ancestral-hominoids wading bipedalism, only humans remain BP:
    - hylobatids evolved brachiation, but are still predom.vertical,
    - pongids evolved suspensory locomotion (& pronograde fist-walking),
    - Gorilla & Pan in parallel evolved (different kinds of) knuckle-walking (australopiths->African apes).

    Google "aquarboreal" (aqua=water, arbor=tree).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Pandora@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun Nov 20 14:28:54 2022
    On Fri, 18 Nov 2022 14:17:31 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:

    stone tools = molluscivory:

    As if that was all hominins ever did with stone tools.
    Spheroid, pick, cleaver, chopper, hand axe, etc.
    The whole toolbox for cracking a shell?
    Sea otters can do that with an unmodified stone.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_l@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun Nov 20 07:13:32 2022
    On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 5:54:53 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
    some kudu runner who can't answer any question:
    MV can't even answer a simple question. Don't even consider asking MV a complex question.
    :-DDD
    Not complex, my little boy.
    Extremely (bio)logical:
    What made apes so different from monkeys?
    Use the anatomical & comparative evidence.
    Apes
    - are generally much larger than monkeys (Mio-Pliocene hylobatids probably reduced in size, but still have unexpectedly long gestation periods for their size),
    - lost the tail (unlikely in arboreal animals),
    - evolved a very broad & strong sternum (Hominoidea = Latisternalia: their thorax broadened -> scapulas more dorsally = arms more laterally),
    - their spine shifted from dorsal to central in the body (vertical rather than horizontal spine?),
    - their lumbar spine reduced from 7 to 5 vertebras (id.),
    - their arms lengthened (more below-branch locomotion) etc.
    Most mammals (quadrupedal) have a dorsal spine + a narrow body suspended below it: a latero-laterally narrow pelvis & thorax & rod-like sternebrae,
    but early apes evolved stronger ams & a more vertical & very broad body.
    IOW, early apes had a more vertical & arm-hanging locomotion, as is necessary in swamp forests.
    In spite of Pleistocene coolings, this is still seen in pongids & hominids wading bipedally in forest swamps, google e.g. "bonobo wading".
    From this ancestral-hominoids wading bipedalism, only humans remain BP:
    - hylobatids evolved brachiation, but are still predom.vertical,
    - pongids evolved suspensory locomotion (& pronograde fist-walking),
    - Gorilla & Pan in parallel evolved (different kinds of) knuckle-walking (australopiths->African apes).

    Google "aquarboreal" (aqua=water, arbor=tree).

    Please stop referring to "loss of underfur".
    Please stop claiming ancient hylobatids were larger than today's hylobatids.

    https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/news/2022/november/earliest-gibbon-fossil-unlocks-clues-about-the-history-of-apes.html
    Researchers compared the teeth and lower face of Yuanmoupithecus to modern-day gibbons. They appeared to be very similar, but some features were more primitive in the fossil species. The size of the molar teeth helped the researchers estimate that it was
    similar in size to today's gibbons, weighing around six kilograms.

    Fossils from another primate called Kapi ramnagarensis were previously thought to be an early species of hylobatid based on a single isolated fossil molar from India. However, this study found it not to be a hylobatid but from a more primitive group of
    primates more distantly related to modern-day apes.

    https://thechinaproject-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/thechinaproject.com/2020/05/08/song-of-the-skywalker-the-endangered-gibbons-of-yunnan/amp/?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16689566951707&referrer=https%
    3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fthechinaproject.com%2F2020%2F05%2F08%2Fsong-of-the-skywalker-the-endangered-gibbons-of-yunnan%2F

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to All on Sun Nov 20 11:31:17 2022
    Op zondag 20 november 2022 om 16:13:34 UTC+1 schreef DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves:
    On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 5:54:53 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
    some kudu runner who can't answer any question:
    MV can't even answer a simple question. Don't even consider asking MV a complex question.
    :-DDD
    Not complex, my little boy.
    Extremely (bio)logical:
    What made apes so different from monkeys?
    Use the anatomical & comparative evidence.
    Apes
    - are generally much larger than monkeys (Mio-Pliocene hylobatids probably reduced in size, but still have unexpectedly long gestation periods for their size),
    - lost the tail (unlikely in arboreal animals),
    - evolved a very broad & strong sternum (Hominoidea = Latisternalia: their thorax broadened -> scapulas more dorsally = arms more laterally),
    - their spine shifted from dorsal to central in the body (vertical rather than horizontal spine?),
    - their lumbar spine reduced from 7 to 5 vertebras (id.),
    - their arms lengthened (more below-branch locomotion) etc.
    Most mammals (quadrupedal) have a dorsal spine + a narrow body suspended below it: a latero-laterally narrow pelvis & thorax & rod-like sternebrae,
    but early apes evolved stronger ams & a more vertical & very broad body. IOW, early apes had a more vertical & arm-hanging locomotion, as is necessary in swamp forests.
    In spite of Pleistocene coolings, this is still seen in pongids & hominids wading bipedally in forest swamps, google e.g. "bonobo wading".
    From this ancestral-hominoids wading bipedalism, only humans remain BP:
    - hylobatids evolved brachiation, but are still predom.vertical,
    - pongids evolved suspensory locomotion (& pronograde fist-walking),
    - Gorilla & Pan in parallel evolved (different kinds of) knuckle-walking (australopiths->African apes).

    Google "aquarboreal" (aqua=water, arbor=tree).
    Please stop referring to "loss of underfur".
    Please stop claiming ancient hylobatids were larger than today's hylobatids.

    My little little boy, I don't "claim" this. I only said this was compatible with gestation (too long).
    Grow up, kudu runner!
    Prof.Tobias admitted he had been wrong: is that so difficult for you??
    Our Pleist.ancestors were no antelope runners, coastal omnivores.
    Is that to difficult to admit??


    https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/news/2022/november/earliest-gibbon-fossil-unlocks-clues-about-the-history-of-apes.html
    Researchers compared the teeth & lower face of Yuanmoupithecus to modern-day gibbons. They appeared to be very similar, but some features were more primitive in the fossil spp. The size of the molar teeth helped the researchers estimate that it was
    similar in size to today's gibbons, c 6 kg.
    Fossils from another primate called Kapi ramnagarensis were previously thought to be an early species of hylobatid, based on a single isolated fossil molar from India,
    bot this study found it not to be a hylobatid, but from a more primitive group of primates more distantly related to modern-day apes.
    https://thechinaproject-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/thechinaproject.com/2020/05/08/song-of-the-skywalker-the-endangered-gibbons-of-yunnan/amp/?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16689566951707&referrer=
    https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fthechinaproject.com%2F2020%2F05%2F08%2Fsong-of-the-skywalker-the-endangered-gibbons-of-yunnan%2F

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_l@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun Nov 20 15:27:01 2022
    On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 2:31:19 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
    Op zondag 20 november 2022 om 16:13:34 UTC+1 schreef DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves:
    On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 5:54:53 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
    some kudu runner who can't answer any question:
    MV can't even answer a simple question. Don't even consider asking MV a complex question.
    :-DDD
    Not complex, my little boy.
    Extremely (bio)logical:
    What made apes so different from monkeys?
    Use the anatomical & comparative evidence.
    Apes
    - are generally much larger than monkeys (Mio-Pliocene hylobatids probably reduced in size, but still have unexpectedly long gestation periods for their size),
    - lost the tail (unlikely in arboreal animals),
    - evolved a very broad & strong sternum (Hominoidea = Latisternalia: their thorax broadened -> scapulas more dorsally = arms more laterally),
    - their spine shifted from dorsal to central in the body (vertical rather than horizontal spine?),
    - their lumbar spine reduced from 7 to 5 vertebras (id.),
    - their arms lengthened (more below-branch locomotion) etc.
    Most mammals (quadrupedal) have a dorsal spine + a narrow body suspended below it: a latero-laterally narrow pelvis & thorax & rod-like sternebrae,
    but early apes evolved stronger ams & a more vertical & very broad body. IOW, early apes had a more vertical & arm-hanging locomotion, as is necessary in swamp forests.
    In spite of Pleistocene coolings, this is still seen in pongids & hominids wading bipedally in forest swamps, google e.g. "bonobo wading".
    From this ancestral-hominoids wading bipedalism, only humans remain BP: - hylobatids evolved brachiation, but are still predom.vertical,
    - pongids evolved suspensory locomotion (& pronograde fist-walking),
    - Gorilla & Pan in parallel evolved (different kinds of) knuckle-walking (australopiths->African apes).

    Google "aquarboreal" (aqua=water, arbor=tree).
    Please stop referring to "loss of underfur".
    Please stop claiming ancient hylobatids were larger than today's hylobatids.

    little boy: " I don't "claim" this. I only said this was compatible with gestation (too long)."
    Already disproven, see published article. Continued claiming so is deceptive. Stop lying about it.

    https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/news/2022/november/earliest-gibbon-fossil-unlocks-clues-about-the-history-of-apes.html
    Researchers compared the teeth & lower face of Yuanmoupithecus to modern-day gibbons. They appeared to be very similar, but some features were more primitive in the fossil spp. The size of the molar teeth helped the researchers estimate that it was
    similar in size to today's gibbons, c 6 kg.
    Fossils from another primate called Kapi ramnagarensis were previously thought to be an early species of hylobatid, based on a single isolated fossil molar from India,
    bot this study found it not to be a hylobatid, but from a more primitive group of primates more distantly related to modern-day apes.
    https://thechinaproject-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/thechinaproject.com/2020/05/08/song-of-the-skywalker-the-endangered-gibbons-of-yunnan/amp/?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16689566951707&referrer=
    https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fthechinaproject.com%2F2020%2F05%2F08%2Fsong-of-the-skywalker-the-endangered-gibbons-of-yunnan%2F

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)